Further Progress?

[Meili]

Well, things are definitely progressing, but I'm not sure what direction they are headed in.

On Friday, my x told me that she wanted to take a therapeutic break for a week and see how she feels about us and our future together.  Well, what she actually said was that she is going to disappear for a week and try to decide what she wants to do. We haven't managed to make it through 24 hours yet without communication. She's been quiet today though, so maybe she's starting her week of disappearing.

Sadly, her birthday is also this week, and she'll receive her present, so I'll probably hear something from her in a few days.

I'm actually appreciating the silence. She's been obsessing about the ow and her becoming friends with people in my x's and my social circle. That resulted in a random email at 1:30 Sunday morning. The obsessing is causing my x a great deal of stress. She feels humiliated. I've done all that I can to validate, reassure her that I'm not interested in the ow, and console her pains.

In my x's mind, I'm to blame for bringing the ow into the social circle. The reality is that when the ow and I were a couple, she was in that circle and knew some of these people. She's rekindling those relationships now.

I have little hope that she will be able to recover from this. She feels abandoned by me and our mutual friends who are getting to know the ow. It appears to be more than she can bear.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

I received an email from my x yesterday that opened a short dialog. At the end of it, she told me that after the week is up, we'll talk about arrangements for an event that is coming up that we'll both likely attend, and that how this week turns out will dictate how that conversation goes.

This morning, I received several text messages from her telling me how she does not feel important to me, and that every time I talked to the ow that I was choosing her over my x. She specifically asked me not to respond to the text messages, so I didn't.

I truly understand my x feeling the way that she does. I don't agree with her, but I understand where she's coming from, and whether or not I agree is irrelevant. She feels that I chose another over her.

I've been trying to repair this damage by showing her just how important she is to me, but it's so hard when she keeps pushing me away and every conversation turns into one about the ow, my not putting my x first in my world, and how I lied, cheated, and betrayed her. I'm not sure how to move forward if all that she does is look at the past.

I can clearly see her struggle and the pain that she feels in her text messages and emails. She has told me on multiple occasions that her life is like the movie Groundhog Day. She keeps reliving the pain over and over every day. It's painful for me to watch this, I can only begin to imagine how much it hurts her.

[SoMadSoSad]

Arent you giving her power over you?

[Meili]

What power would that be?

I'm living my life and respecting her wishes while she figures out what she wants to do.

[SoMadSoSad]

Well how exactly do you see this relationship that you guys have progressing? Shes already jealous and you guys are not togethers. She is also guilting you into making her #1 priority when you guys are not together. If you guys get back together would you not be able to befriend other females? Would her needs always have to be top priority? Are you putting your dating life on hold for her? Is it fair to make someone else wait because you yourself are not ready for a relationship? These are just some thoughts

[Meili]

All are very good questions, and since I don't post a lot about what is going on, it makes sense to ask them.

Well how exactly do you see this relationship that you guys have progressing?

The r/s was progressing pretty well until I did something stupid and re-involved the ow in my life. That cratered everything.

When I did it, I didn't actually realize that I was doing it. I went on a group motorcycle ride (207 bikes, 300+ people). A mutual friend to all involved borrowed the motorcycle that the ow had bought for me and I had given back to her. The ow came on the ride and hung out with my group of friends. My x decided that I purposefully did not invite her on the ride because of the ow. Thus, feeling that I put the ow before her. My version of that reality is that my friends and I invited my x several days before and she declined.

Now, my x is trying to decide if she can get passed all of the emotions that have re-arisen as a result of the ride (more on that in a moment).

Shes already jealous and you guys are not togethers.

Yes, she is jealous, but I don't let that effect me too much right now.

She is also guilting you into making her #1 priority when you guys are not together.

Trying to guilt me would be more appropriate. Honestly, I don't mind making her my priority if she would be willing to make me hers. Since we are not in that type of relationship, I just keep doing my thing.

If you guys get back together would you not be able to befriend other females?

OK, this is where I mentioned that I'd provide more info earlier. It isn't just any female, it's this particular female. The ow is my ex-fiance. We were together for over seven years. When things went south between my x and me, I reached out to the ow for emotional support since she knows me better than anyone else. I should not have done that.

For months, my x begged me to stop talking to the ow and I blatantly refused to do so. This was when I first learned about my CPTSD and my x's BPD. My x refused to offer me support, so I sought it outside of the r/s.

That's why it's such a big deal about the ow; because of the emotional affair. Now, my x doesn't trust that the ow will not be re-involved in our r/s. The motorcycle ride solidified that fear for her.

Would her needs always have to be top priority?

IMHO, your significant other's needs should be a priority, so I'm not sure what this means.

Are you putting your dating life on hold for her?

No. There's no one else that I want to date.

Is it fair to make someone else wait because you yourself are not ready for a relationship?

No, but little in life is fair, and a r/s with a pwBPD is anything but fair until things level out and the pwBPD starts to get help.

But, she's not "making" me do anything. It is my choice what I am doing. I choose to give her the time and space that she needs. I could choose to walk away. I could choose to make the ow my priority. I could choose a lot of different paths, but this is the one that I choose. I'm the only one in control of that.

[patientandclear]

Meili, I keep thinking you are taking her surface explanation for the mistrust too literally. Her profound mistrust isn't because you necessarily did anything so "wrong." She comes into the dynamic with mistrust, mistrust that comes from long before you did anything.

[Meili]

Yes and no.

I have not forgotten that distrust is part of the package with her. I have fueled that distrust lately though and that's the part that I'm paying attention to.

I know that I triggered her trust and abandonment issues. She's also very stressed about her finances. This keeps her emotionally aroused all of the time. The emotional arousal has led to insomnia which keeps the cycle going.

That's what I'm up against at the moment. I know that none of it is within my control, so all that I can do, with regard to her, is sit back and watch.

[Meili]

As I've mentioned in the past, I don't normally post the day-to-day details about my situation, but I seem to be struggling today and need to vent.

My x has a lot going on in her world besides me that is causing her stress, so things are really hard right now. Today is her birthday and her apparently her father forgot. Also, she's got financial problems that are really weighing on her.

Yesterday, my x and I chatted via email all day about things that had nothing to do with our relationship, and it was nice.

Then my father let her know that he was going to go on a public, motorcycle dinner ride that my x was leading. She lost it with me. Telling me how humiliated she has been, how embarrassed she'll be around my father because I repeatedly chose the ow over her, and how I've ruined her life. Her motorcycle wouldn't start, so she didn't go on the ride.

I tried to be validating and supportive and let her know that my father likes her and is supportive of our reconciliation. She told me that she'd be embarrassed and ashamed if we reconciled because she'd then be my "second choice." I then made the mistake of telling her that others don't actually see it that way; that they see her as being my choice because I've exorcised the ow from my world.

One of our mutual friends (one of the ones that she specifically asked that I don't hang out with because he's "her" friend) was going to lead the ride since she couldn't. Only a few people showed up, so they decided to cancel the ride. The friend called her to tell her what happened. He also told her that he met my father. During that conversation, he also informed her that he met the ow at another motorcycle event last week, and that he invited her to come on their rides. From what I gather, the ow politely declined and said something about the reason that she can't go on the rides.

That was a trigger for her. Things went south real quick after that. She called and raged about not being my first choice, being humiliated, and all of the other things that I listed above.

I tried to console her, validate, and reassure her that she's always been my first choice. She doesn't believe me. I get that. She feels as she does and that's her reality.

She made threats about walking away for good and finding someone else who will put her first in all things. I calmly told her that if that's what she feels that she needs to do, I'll understand, but I'd appreciate the opportunity to show her how I feel first. There was a small extinction burst.

I'm not sure how to show her that she's important to me, loved, and the one that I choose to be with. She's so focused on the past that is all that she can see. She totally discounts the fact that I've gotten into therapy so as to not repeat my pattern in the past wherein I reached out to another woman for validation because my x wouldn't/couldn't give it to me. She tells me that she can't move forward because the ow keeps popping up and causing problems. I want to tell her that she's the one keeps making the ow an issue. We are all involved in the same social circle and that regardless of whether or not we reconcile, she's going to have accept that as a fact. I know that won't help though.

I need to find a way that she can see to reassure her that she's my choice and the one that is important to me.

[Meili]

Something that I need to remember, it was only two weeks ago that I went on that ride and the ow came. My going on the ride was a betrayal to my x. It's still very fresh and painful to her. I need not discount that and cannot expect her to "just get over it" and move on.

What's happened here is that the two of us have entered into a cycle of feeling unimportant and rejected. She pushes me away, and I no longer chase so she feels rejected. This causes her to reject me more so I have no desire to chase.

I need to figure out how to break that cycle and still remain true to myself.

[patientandclear]

Meili, consider that there is nothing YOU can do that you are not already doing to show her that she is your choice, etc.

Is she at all open to counseling (separately or together)? Seems to me the good news here is that she's been focused for quite a while on one specific issue (you chose the OW--which I don't subscribe to BTW). To the extent that is the real problem, that presents a pretty good target in couple's counseling.

It doesn't sound right that the recent ride the OW came along for is the "why" here. Before that ride, things were still not OK. This fear/hurt was not subsiding and then just refreshed by that incident.

[Meili]

She has gone from "NO! I will not go to counseling with you (or separately) because I kicked me in the... .last time we tried that" to "I'm not ready for counseling yet."

I agree, she is VERY focused on this one issue and that does help in some regard.

I also agree that there is nothing for me to do other than just remain consistent in words and actions. Thank you for that reminder.

To hear my x tell it, the fear/hurt were subsiding before the ride. Two days before, she wanted to meet with me and talk about "us" and the possibility of a future together. Also, after the ride, she wanted me to come over to talk. Of course, she didn't convey this to me until after she found out that the ow went on the ride. Had I known any of it prior to the ride, there would have been no way that the ride would have ever happened. All that I knew was that I was still being rejected because of the past and that my current efforts were doing nothing. But, the ride reset everything in my x's mind.

[Grey Kitty]

Meili, your x is behaving horribly here, blaming you for things you aren't doing and for how she is feeling.

The thing about the ride with your dad... .well, you tried to validate, but what is valid. She feels uncomfortable around your dad since she's currently broken up with you. That's valid. The rabbit hole she went down, attacking you... .no that isn't valid.

The ow is my ex-fiance. We were together for over seven years. When things went south between my x and me, I reached out to the ow for emotional support since she knows me better than anyone else. I should not have done that.

The thing with OW is tricky. Since X is prone to jealousy, and insecure about this, it was a bad idea, and stopping it sounds like the right choice for your (potential?) r/s with X.

The rest of your situation isn't so clear.

Having a deep emotionally intimate friendship with somebody besides your romantic partner can be an emotional affair, or it can be simply a healthy way to live your life--with close friends who care about you in your life!

When your romantic r/s goes south, getting external emotional support is a good thing to do, assuming you do it with somebody safe. A good therapist is safe. A parent, sibling, or a trustworthy, intimate friend who knows you well would be safe... .*IF* they don't have any interest in the outcome other than your wellbeing.

And that is key. If OW and you have healed from the breakup up and both know that you couldn't be romantic partners and aren't interested in trying again, but still care for each other as friends, she would be a good choice. OTOH, if some secret part of you wants to try again, or if you think she secretly (or even openly) wishes she had another chance with you, she would be a very bad choice, and wouldn't be safe at all! Or if OW just happened to hate X for some unrelated reason, again, not a safe choice!

I don't expect X to be able to sort this out, or even believe the answer if OW was a safe person for you to talk to.

But in your heart, you know what you did... .which was it?
A: Asking a good friend for support (which was triggering to X, and perhaps you should have known better)?
B: Asking the wrong person for support, 'cuz she was too involved/connected/something?
C: Your effort to have some sort of emotional affair with OW?

[Meili]

I agree, it is horrible behavior and exactly what caused me to reach out to the ow to begin with about a year ago.

The short answer to the question is: A: Asking a good friend for support (which was triggering to X, and perhaps you should have known better)?

The ow and I started talking when my x and I had broken up (one of the several times that I couldn't handle the stress of the r/s and tried to end it). The ow was involved in a r/s with someone else, and it was clear that we had both moved on in our lives.

My x and I got back together and showed up for a motorcycle ride, and who shows up by the ow. That's where all this started for me. It apparently started months earlier for my x though. The ow's dog got loose and my contact info was all that was available, so I retrieved the dog and contacted the ow. We talked for about an hour. My x knew that the ow was at my house and got really upset. I didn't know that until many months later though.

Problems continued with my x because I didn't know how to handle things between us or internally. I kept asking her stop being abusive (silly me, I thought that would work). The ow was a safe place for me to vent because she was involved and planning her future with her new guy.

My x found out that I was talking to the ow and demanded that I stop. I didn't. I knew that I needed someone safe to talk to about everything. The ow was very supportive of my efforts to make the r/s with my x work because she knew that I was mostly happy with her. I defended my right to talk to whomever I choose. I even told my x that the ow was safe for me because she couldn't hurt me. That didn't go over well.

At some point, I agreed to not talk to the ow again. Another break-up happened, I reached out to the ow. Then my x and I recycled. My x found out that I was talking to the ow and it all started over again.

I can't remember if this happened two or three times. The exact same cycle.

Last April when I ended the r/s with my the last time, after a few weeks, I reached out to the ow again. I was adamant about moving on from my x. The ow had just ended things with her new guy too, and her mother (and cat and dog) had just died. She was emotional. Apparently, she latched onto me. I didn't know this until some time after I began trying to reconcile with my x.

The ow was told in no uncertain terms that there would be nothing romantic between us. She wanted more, but I was very clear that there would be nothing more.

So, what I thought was a safe friend turned out to be something different in the end.

[Grey Kitty]

I kinda thought I remembered some of this, from one of the other times it came up.

Last April when I ended the r/s with my the last time, after a few weeks, I reached out to the ow again. I was adamant about moving on from my x. The ow had just ended things with her new guy too, and her mother (and cat and dog) had just died. She was emotional. Apparently, she latched onto me. I didn't know this until some time after I began trying to reconcile with my x.

The ow was told in no uncertain terms that there would be nothing romantic between us. She wanted more, but I was very clear that there would be nothing more.

So, what I thought was a safe friend turned out to be something different in the end.

I agree that OW's not worth the risk of triggering X as long as you still hope to reconcile with X.

If you ever give up on X, you might be able to have OW in your life as a friend again, if OW isn't too pissed at you over this rollercoaster ride that X is taking you (and somewhat her) on.

And give her desire for "more" with you... .in that hypothetical future world I mentioned, I might go to her for support about your mom, dad, dog, job, or something happening to your bike... .but probably wouldn't reach out to her and cry on her shoulder about your troubles with X or any future romantic interest of yours.

[Meili]

Oh, yeah, I definitely won't being going to the ow to cry on her shoulder regarding any relationship issue in the future, no matter what happens between my x and me.

When I reached out to her the last couple of times, it wasn't even about things between my x and me. I had just learned about my CPTSD. I was trying to cope with the issues from my FOO. I asked my x to be a bit more supportive about it (in fact, I'm still asking for that and did so last night... .the lack of empathy makes it a futile request though). My x openly refused to try to have any understanding about what I was/am going through and how it has affected my relationships.

Talking to the ow about how it played out in our relationship helped me discover the magnitude of the issue. I would have chosen to address it with my x, but as I said, she was (and is) unwilling to do so.

So, the dynamic kinda played out like this:

X was abusive
I terminated the relationship
I reached out to ow for comfort
X asks me to reconcile
I continue to talk to the ow
I stop talking to the ow
I learned about CPTSD and turned to my x
X refused to offer any sort of empathy
I terminated the relationship
I reached out to the ow regarding the effects of the CPTSD on my relationships
X and I get back together
Repeat from after the first recycle.

[icky]

oh dear - certainly no easy/ quick fixes here. the inter-connectedness of your set of friends, her friends and mutual aquaintances and relatives and ex-partners is fertile ground for lots of re-triggers re the ow situation. i assume you live in a pretty small (rural?) community? in a big city, it's so easy to stay out of each others' ways, once things have gone pear shaped. . in a community that's so small that everyone (and their run-away dogs) keeps bumping into each other, your x is certainly going to need some small-town skills re dealing with ex's and ow's. i actually think i'd find the situation very challenging if i were your x, even without BPD! it'd take a lot of character and self-esteem and humour to face the ow squarely and to say "you know what? you had your chance with him, but he's chosen me, cos he loves me better, so back off and keep a respectful distance, you hear me?". i wonder if you could give some thought to how social hygiene works in small town communities.? in small towns, everyone knows each other's failings and everyone is inter-connected somehow - it's like a big, messy family, with all the pro's and all the con's. given that interactions with the ow can't be avoided totally, and hence re-triggering will occur relatively regularly, i think it could be helpful to sit down with your x and use tools like humour to try and work out how to deal with ex's and ow's in tiny communities. if your x does end up deciding she wants to reconcile, maybe some small town social gesture that you guys now belong together will be helpful. if you guys are from a motor bike community, maybe something symbolic like joint tatoos, that everyone on bike rides can see, will clarify the status of you and your x to everyone including the ow, socially? just brainstorming, in the hope that some outside-the-square thinking might lead to a good idea later down the track.

[Meili]

The town is actually medium sized. It's the fact that the motorcycle community is relatively small and tight-knit. And, for those of you that don't know, bikers gossip worse than 13 year old girls!

We've actually had some dialogue today that was helpful to me. OK, I admit that I probably shouldn't have done this on her birthday, but I just couldn't take it anymore and told her that her vagueness about so many things triggers my insecurities. She let me know that she no longer feels the need to not be vague (although, she's always been vague about certain things) anymore because I never let her know what's going on with me (thus triggering her insecurities about the ow). I think that I need to pay attention to this.

I LOVE the out-of-the-box thinking. It's exactly what is needed in this situation I think. I actually like the matching tattoos. We talked about getting them when we were a couple.

She kinda did tell the ow to back off a few days ago. The ow actually contacted my x directly and told her that she just wants me to be happy and supported my x and me reconciling. I'm pretty sure, and from what my x tells me, this was a "female power move that was designed to cause problems." Well, it did. My x sent back something to the effect of the ow needs to leave me alone because I don't want her.

[icky]

. The town is actually medium sized. It's the fact that the motorcycle community is relatively small and tight-knit. And, for those of you that don't know, bikers gossip worse than 13 year old girls! .

. hahahahahahaha. that is hilarious : ). all the more reason to apply small-town logic to it then, tho!

. We've actually had some dialogue today that was helpful to me. OK, I admit that I probably shouldn't have done this on her birthday, but I just couldn't take it anymore and told her that her vagueness about so many things triggers my insecurities. She let me know that she no longer feels the need to not be vague (although, she's always been vague about certain things) anymore because I never let her know what's going on with me (thus triggering her insecurities about the ow). I think that I need to pay attention to this..

. ooh this sounds good!  : ).

. I LOVE the out-of-the-box thinking. It's exactly what is needed in this situation I think. I actually like the matching tattoos. We talked about getting them when we were a couple. . She kinda did tell the ow to back off a few days ago. The ow actually contacted my x directly and told her that she just wants me to be happy and supported my x and me reconciling. I'm pretty sure, and from what my x tells me, this was a "female power move that was designed to cause problems." Well, it did. My x sent back something to the effect of the ow needs to leave me alone because I don't want her. .

. well, i almost agree about the "female power move designed to cause problems thing". i agree it was a female power move, but i think (in the long term) it's about clarifying the situation. yes, that may initially cause problems. but i think you should encourage the two women to sort it out amongst themselves. until they do that, nothing will ever be resolved, imo. give your x all the backing she wants/ needs to be empowered/ assertive/ bossy/ a bit b!tchy to the ow if that's what it takes to settle the issue of "who does Meili belong to". i would tell your x that you think that's what needs to happen - your x needs to socially clarify who Meili belongs to and that you support her 1000%. i would use the idea of joint tattoos as a kind of "reward" . i would tell her that if your x manages to socially clarify stuff with the ow, then you think it might be a sweet idea to get matching tattoos to celebrate that achievement/ milestone. (anyway, just more brainstorming. pick out what seems vaguely useful and discard all the rest!)  . : )

[Meili]

give your x all the backing she wants/ needs to be empowered/ assertive/ bossy/ a bit b!tchy to the ow if that's what it takes to settle the issue of "who does Meili belong to"

What's funny is that in no one's eyes by my x's is this a question. People still come up to me and talk to me like she and I are still a couple. I know that there people in the "community" who don't know that we're not a couple!

i would tell your x that you think that's what needs to happen - your x needs to *socially* clarify who Meili belongs to and that you support her 1000%

ahhh... .if only I could convince my x that I belong to her... .That would solve many of the problems.

[icky]

: ). well, it doesn't matter if the community thinks you are together. what matters is achieving:. your x thinks the community thinks you belong together. your x thinks you belong to her and you know it. your x thinks the ow knows you belong to your x. this is something your x needs so clarify socially. i think this whole issue has next to nothing to do with BPD. i realise the BPD makes this all affect your x more deeply and more emotionally. but the BPD is not the issue, imo. empower her to take social action, to make female power moves to stake her claim on you. wave the joint tattoos enticingly in front of her nose, as a big fat juicy reward for having done the social power work it takes to mark you out as hers. : )

[Meili]

I agree that my x needs to think and believe those things.

The BPD just intensifies all of the emotions. Where a normal woman would feel threatened, angry, and/or jealous, the BPD woman experiences it with every fiber of her being. It has consumed my x. She is obsessing over the emotions that she's experiencing.

I think that it would all go much smoother if she'd decide that she does want me to be hers.

Have I mentioned that we have his and hers Harleys? There's no denying my feelings for her when people see us together.

[Grey Kitty]

ahhh... .if only I could convince my x that I belong to her... .That would solve many of the problems.

I'm afraid she is too insecure to believe you on that. Certainly now. Perhaps ever. Given the history, including you breaking your promise not to contact ow a few times, it would be really hard to get over.

Are you willing to be in a relationship where you aren't trusted, where you are regularly accused of cheating or whatever x calls your involvement with ow? And likely dumped a few more times over it?

[icky]

. I agree that my x needs to think and believe those things. The BPD just intensifies all of the emotions. Where a normal woman would feel threatened, angry, and/or jealous, the BPD woman experiences it with every fiber of her being. It has consumed my x. She is obsessing over the emotions that she's experiencing. I think that it would all go much smoother if she'd decide that she does want me to be hers. . Have I mentioned that we have his and hers Harleys? There's no denying my feelings for her when people see us together.

. : ). well, i am optimistic for you (with a biiiig dose of BPD realism thrown in). i've brainstormed all the semi-useful stuff my brain can come up with re this situation, so i will leave it with you as positive inspiration to seek a good, mutual way forward for you and your x in a small-community setting. i'll check in again once you've got some more progress (good or challenging) to report . and i'm very curious to hear how this develops. (i love gossiping like a 13 year old girl too, hehe). heaps of good luck to you and your x !

[Meili]

Thank you hmmmmm!

I'm afraid she is too insecure to believe you on that. Certainly now. Perhaps ever. Given the history, including you breaking your promise not to contact ow a few times, it would be really hard to get over.

I believe that you are correct. The history of breaking the promises about the ow (even though the promises were always broken when we were not a couple) is really hard for her to get past. I can't blame her. It would be hard for me as well.

Are you willing to be in a relationship where you aren't trusted, where you are regularly accused of cheating or whatever x calls your involvement with ow? And likely dumped a few more times over it?

To be clear, she's never actually dumped me, but that's beside the point.

Yes, she calls it cheating. Even though we are not a couple, two weeks ago on the ride, that was cheating to my x... .a betrayal at the very least.

I really don't mind doing what I can to make her feel secure where the ow is concerned. Being berated and told that I'm the scum of the Earth because I cheated on her as a daily occurrence? Yeah, I'm not too thrilled about that prospect.

[Grey Kitty]

Oopsie, I see that you were abused enough that you terminated the r/s several times, instead of her dumping you. Yeah, kinda beside the point.

Anyhow, you can't "make her feel secure". Nobody can make anybody else feel anything. NOT POSSIBLE. No how, no way.

Unfortunately, with BPD she's not likely to get there on her own either. And with X and OW and you and your dad all in a small motorcycle community, this is likely to continue to blow up.

[Meili]

I agree that no one can "make" anyone feel anything. I used that phrase in the looses possible sense because it's socially acceptable to do so. What I meant was show her that I am trustworthy.

Yeah, I'm pretty concerned about the whole motorcycle community causing all of this to be a re-occurring problem.

[Lilyroze]

Meili,

I think it can and will work for some and you if:

You give up the OW and all friendships not approved ( which you did)

All family not approved ( I know you dealt with some to her satisfaction already)

All rides not approved and motorcycle in garage until approved ( but she can when she wants as you are not a couple)

The other woman who was a friend and lover for over 7 years so not such a monster, will stay away which she has. Will give up all mutual friends which she did for many years and let your ex ( the recent)  tell her off and be rude for being a friends. Which she has... .so all good on that front. Sad but use to be for your ex ( recent) , and huge cheerleader for you both and ex for long time. No longer. Though want you happy, your choice and if you want her good, hopes all works out and you both are happy. But as a woman don't  think your ex of 7 years has to give up her mutual friends or club or rides for  the ex. I understand she is or was friends with you, let the woman tell her off, stayed away, even told her she would, all for what... .Your ex of 7 years needs to find her self esteem again poor thing and NOT let your friendship of past or recent ex make her think she can't have her old friends back. BPD or not, no trust and issues will always come up, some just plain tacky. Sorry. I understand she has the right to tell you her needs, wants, desires, ,rules, and you have to take it, or want to in name of working out and winning her trust. But try to see the ex of 7 years side and not let your recent ex run everyone around in  your life, or run them off in name of love she is not showing... .due to reason of the week. She was in your life many years and a friend when you both needed, end it and you have with her. But she doesn't need to take abuse from your recent ex for you to show loyalty. That is concerning, sorry. Just putting where it is.

All her friendships and male roles no matter what they are or how she spins it are OK, which are with you as you are not a couple.

 That when together if a couple her money, life, decisions are hers to make... .which is fine as it is her life, her decisions and you are not controlling. But eventually stability and sharing, caring and budgets might mean something to you, as is to some. Just mentioning as important to some and as we age our goals or retirement or not debt is a goal of some. Yes love is important and I am not a money oriented person either, but many marriages end due to financial strain or debt. You both have enough problems already. Not that you don't know that.  If not and you are cool with all great. Many wouldn't be as to some being in control of finances and not letting them control you even if in debt are important ( her worrying about money and having some problems you noted in other post:) )

That she can not trust you rage at you for turning to a friend in need, but she can turn to all and any she wants and still accuse you.

All in all glad all working out better, there is some progress and more talking. Sounds good, keep trying, I guess. Hopefully she loves her Birthday present, the time you have spent so far before this all got back, will get help with you and all will come together soon. Truly want you happy. You know I was both your biggest cheerleader for awhile so truly want you happy.

I would hope she is willing to try as well. Not be selfish or unkind to the other woman, who to me is being kind and classy. I give her more credit then I think you realize the gift of friendship she has given.  

[patientandclear]

Strongly agree with Lily Roze.  Please, do not encourage and support the current object of your affection in treating disrespectfully the OW, who has done absolutely nothing wrong here.

Possible food for thought: which of these women has shown you genuine love and respect? Which knows your true heart? Which feels a possessory interest in you?

[icky]

. ooh, good points : ). Meili, people who have known you and your relationship with your x for longer, may be better able to give input into as to "whether this relationship is worth pursuing". i have zero insight into your situation as regards that. being in love can lead you to someone who you need to go on a journey with, because it's someone who you will grow with and learn from. but being in love can also lead you to an abusive person, who's patterns you find it nearly impossible to break away from. i have no idea what's the case here. if she's a partner worth pursuing, then i stand by what i said yesterday. love is messy and and poetic and weird, as is life. it's not just BPD that's messy : ). love is an incredibly powerful force and can heal things that seem insurmountable. but as all partners of pwBPD know, love can also keep damaging, unhealthy patterns going and often, love-just-ain't-enough, too. i hope for you that she's worth it and i hope for you that it works out.