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My husband just breezed through the kitchen after printing something on my printer. I know the grim facial expression well and his desire to not spend much time in my presence, so I ask, "Are you OK?"

"Not really," he replies.

"What's wrong?" I ask, taking the bait.

"Oh, a couple of things," he says as he leaves.

I suspect it has to do with me taping a connection to his computer a few minutes ago. As I was doing it, I held the wire in place between my knees, which he objected to. "I'm not putting any stress on it, I'm just keeping it in place," I said.

He told me not to tape over the plug part. DUH!

I said, "You're welcome to do this if you want."

When I finished, he said I did a good job.

I said, "As the daughter of an electrician, I was playing with electrical tape before I could talk."

So now I think he's pissed off at me. I suppressed the urge to try and smooth things over. If I can't be me, what's the point of being in a relationship?

When I wrote "fix things", I meant fixing his emotional state. Then I realized that I'm the only one in the relationship that fixes objects, often the objects he breaks through not paying attention.

Did you just have a moment there, or have you improved on not trying to "fix" your husband?

Hey Cat, Why are you fixing things, objects and emotions, for him?  LJ

Did you just have a moment there, or have you improved on not trying to "fix" your husband?

I caught myself just as I was about to try to "work things out" like I would with a normal person. It's a one-way street, as he doesn't seem to give a flying fig about offending me.

Hey Cat, Why are you fixing things, objects and emotions, for him?

I guess I get a fair amount of self-esteem from my ability to fix things, although I've never been able to "fix" his emotions, yet I've tried constantly, until I started coming here and realized what a fruitless endeavor it is.

Yet, I still catch myself trying or worse, I don't catch myself... .

Good questions. Thank you, Grey Kitty and Lucky Jim.

This would be the thing I would consider doing differently.

"Something on your mind you would like to talk about?"

or

"It would mean a lot to me if you could share your feelings right now... ."

Suggesting that something is "wrong"... .likely not best course of action.

FF

I am a big fan of never asking what is wrong.  *)

In this case, could the problem be something like this?

In an interview with Trump biographer Michael D’Antonio, Ivana Trump recounted an incident from their courtship, a ski trip to Colorado. She had not told the real estate mogul she was an accomplished skier.

Trump skied down first.

“So he goes and stops, and he says, ‘Come on, baby. Come on, baby,’ “ Ivana Trump said. “I went up. I went two flips up in the air, two flips in front of him. I disappeared. Donald was so angry, he took off his skis, his ski boots, and walked up to the restaurant. ... .He could not take it. He could not take it.”

www.rawstory.com/2016/10/ivana-trump-says-her-former-husband-can-be-a-cry-baby/

It's got to be frustrating to you when you have a particular skill for a particularly understandable reason. Probably just like the future Ivana Trump. But it is probably still wounding to your husband. How sad when a person cannot take delight in a spouse's accomplishments. But understanding and detaching from the disappointment of this can be very freeing.

Good point, FF and KateCat about not asking what's wrong. As Grey Kitty says, "Nothing good will come of that."

And yes, I think you're onto something, KateCat. He doesn't get much opportunity as a retired lawyer to show expertise in his field, whereas for me, I do that daily. Tonight something was wrong with one of the burners on the stove and I took out the manual, but he figured out how to fix it while I continued making dinner. I made sure to let him know how much I appreciated that.

I would agree that your expertise- and stepping into fix the computer may have triggered an insecurity in him.

That doesn't take away from you being a competent person. In fact, you shouldn't act as if you can't do it. You can and he knows it. But one question is- did he ask you to fix it, or did you step in to do it?

When we step in to do things that other people can do for themselves, we can send an invalidating message- and this can be triggering to someone with BPD.

There is a message from parenting that can help here. As a parent, we do most chores better than a child at first- cleaning the house, doing laundry, washing dishes, but to teach the child to do them, we have to not do them and let the child learn. We've seen children struggle to learn a task, stubbornly insisting " I can do it myself". As parents, we have to step back and let them do it themselves, even if we can do it better. If we step in, we can invalidate the child.

Many of us grew up in invalidating homes. I know that my FIL was very critical. My H is very good at handiwork in the home and doesn't want me to do it. However, I was quite OK doing a lot of things before we met- but he is much better at them and would rather do them. One of our issues when we were first married was his refusal to help with anything he considered "woman's work" in the home. This made me crazy as - this isn't the 1950s! I didn't mind doing most of it, but all of it? Now, I think - well he grew up with a traditional mother who did everything, and maybe he just doesn't know how to do these things and rather than do them poorly in front of me, he would save face by refusing and giving me that reason.

I am better with working a computer. Sometimes I can hear my H getting angry at his computer when something went wrong. Instead of fixing, I just sit back and let him figure it out. If he later asks me, I will try to fix the issue if I can,  but I think that "let me do it myself" drive is something to respect.

Yes, it's a fine dance to not invalidate. In this case, he sorta asked me to fix it. His BPD way of doing that is to say something like "We need to fix this." And of course, nothing will happen if I don't do it. Then he'll merely repeat the same message a few weeks later or he will just ignore the problem until it finally causes the system to crash or something completely breaks.

Because I'm the maintenance person around here, I step in and fix things. I do need to support him in doing repairs on his own, just like you would encourage a child, something I think he never got in his FOO.

I think of the biblical quote about not hiding one's light under a bushel or the Marianne Williamson quote: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/17297.Marianne_Williamson

It's just so hard to dance around their fragile egos sometimes.

Perhaps you could say... ."I agree this needs to be done.  What is your plan to address this issue?"

I HATE the we stuff... .  In my r/s it shows up when there is an explantion for something going wrong.  "We" will be more careful next time... .  There are many times I was literally... .not involved at all.  Not even present... .

FF

Hey Cat, That was an honest response to my question!  You identified the issue: it's one way in which you get self-esteem.  Worth thinking about why you do it, which may involve delving into FOO issues.  Perhaps you could also consider whether this is a healthy dynamic for you?  I used to think that care taking my BPDxW was a loving thing, but I came to see that it was unhealthy for me and for her.

LuckyJim

Cat,

It's been a while since I've posted in your threads. 

This is me trying to catch up a bit.

Any changes in the big picture of the r/s?  What ever happened with the luggage you got him... .and he was so weird about it?

Are you guys having more intimate times or time when he is not ticked off about something?

Wasn't there an issue about him cooking or mess making in the kitchen... .something like that.

FF

I think my H and I are good at different things. One big difference is that he had a "take care of everyone's needs" mother, and well, we had to make do on our own as well as take care of my BPD mother's needs. I went into the marriage having been able to take care of things around the house since I was 12. I also had to learn to manage money and other life skills from a young age. H can do handyman things- but I think his childhood was more "normal" in that he didn't have to be an adult at a young age. So, he still had to learn things I already knew how to do.

As hard as it is to step back and not do something you know you can do better, that is the only real way someone learns. If it isn't life altering- then let your H make a mistake. Let the computer be broken. Then, the broken computer becomes his problem to figure out.

It was very difficult for us to step out of the way when my father died and left mom to manage finances on her own. We feared she would mismanage them, which she did. My father didn't say no to her, she spent whatever she wanted. But he also provided the money and without him, there would not be what she was used to coming in. Well, she didn't want our help- it was her money. Only when she saw her savings diminish and not be replenished did she realize she needed to manage her budget. But she had to experience that to figure it out. Had we managed it for her, she would not have.

Thanks, Lucky Jim, formflier and Notwendy. I agree that it would be good for me to step back from fixing things that he could manage himself. Actually I think my bigger issue is getting triggered by his bad moods and wanting to "fix" things (meaning his mood) so that he'll be happy again. We actually did have a rather productive conversation where he admitted that he'd been "grumpy" and I was able to tell him that I was tired of him behaving like I was such a negative influence in his life.

He tried to turn it around on me and say that I was "projecting" and that I was getting into "poor me" territory. I said that was absolutely not the case. It hurt my feelings when he would glare at me then abruptly leave the room or speak harshly to me. I felt that I hadn't done anything wrong and that it was really unpleasant to be the recipient of that sort of behavior. And if I had done something to offend him, I would appreciate knowing about it so I wouldn't do it again.

I think he did realize that he was being a grouch. Often it really has nothing to do with me. One of his friends was recently diagnosed with cancer.  Another issue was that he was having difficulty deciding whether or not to keep a new laptop he had bought since he also bought the next version--talk about a first world problem! Jeez! But in that decision, he had to remove all the programs he had installed on the laptop before he returned it to Apple and transfer all the info to his desktop, which was taking a long time.

So he's grumpy about that and therefore acts like an ass to me. And then wonders why I don't want to spend time with him and would rather hang out with animals, do gardening projects, housework, household repairs. Of course, I want to do things that make me feel useful and happy rather than be around someone in a bad mood.

But, here's the rub--I still have the urge to try and "fix" his mood, though history tells me that's opening up a can of worms and things will be worse off than before if I try. Thankfully I'm learning the self control to restrain myself.

To answer your question about FOO stuff, Lucky Jim, I think I enjoy being competent in the physical world because my BPD mother was always criticizing my efforts. Then my first BPD husband continued that pattern on steroids. When I divorced him, I realized that I was far more able than I'd ever given myself credit for and I tackled all sorts of things, like building a house. I guess what I need to do is not to try and get appreciation for doing things for my husband, rather just do things that I enjoy and want to do for myself. He is incredibly gracious with acquaintances and strangers but it doesn't seem to occur to him to even thank me for something I've done that only benefits him. So enough of that!

FF, thanks for asking. We're still like roommates and not much more. I do try to be affectionate and I think he is largely in the push away part of BPD. He once said he felt vulnerable and didn't trust me--I think that meant with his feelings because there's no way I'd ever do anything to betray him in the marital sense.

I returned the luggage. Now that he's inherited a lot of money, he has to have the finest, most high tech things and Samsonite from Costco just didn't cut it. He went to England for a couple of weeks to retrace his childhood memories and during that time, I totally spiffed up the house.

One morning, after he had returned from his trip, I awoke to a f*ing disaster in the kitchen. He'd been drinking and had left a mess. I was so discouraged what he'd done to my nice clean kitchen that I couldn't even make my morning coffee. Instead, I fed the animals and cleaned out the horse stalls. Hours later, when he finally had wandered into the kitchen and somewhat cleaned up his mess, I returned. I told him I felt profoundly disrespected by him leaving a mess after I had worked so hard to make the house nice. Since then, he's done a far better job cleaning up after himself.

Notwendy, I'm all for not intervening when it doesn't make any difference in my life. However, being kinda OCD, it really bugs me to have things done poorly. So I'll let him f* up his stuff, but not mine.   *) :)

t is my H who is picky about his stuff being just so, so we don't share some things. He has areas of the house that are his only- a place in the basement, a little office, and his stuff to have as only his.

I am more laid back about things, so it works better if we have separate stuff because we both have different emotional reactions to people sharing it.

I know the washer dryer has been an issue - with your H leaving his wet clothes in there and ruining it. One solution I would consider is getting him his own so you could keep yours the way you want it. 

Some of our solutions to sharing things feel more like college room mates than spouses, but it seems to avoid conflicts better. Maybe it comes down to different boundaries- who is more territorial and who is not.

Right, Cat, that's your task: to find self-esteem from within, rather than outsourcing it.

LJ

I'm going to push back on this a bit... .and say that you should be deliberate about giving him the opportunity, but hopefully you can be in a place where what he actually says doesn't matter to much to you... .personally.

If you do something for him, I think totally appropriate to say/ask "I'm done with X... .what do you think?"  or "Is it working for you?"

That's not fishing for a complement, it's normal communication.  If that is the kind of communication you desire, ESPECIALLY because fixing things is important to you, I would continue with that type of thing.

Unless you figure out that this kind of thing goes to  a "core shame issue"... .or something particularly difficult for your hubby... .realize it's not your job to make life easy and acceptable for your hubby.

Thoughts?

FF

I know I am a bit nitpicky, well maybe more than a bit... .:)  I don't think I'd like to be my roommate. That said, I give credit to "trying" and realize that not everybody has standards that are the same. People have called me a perfectionist, but that term makes me think of my aunt, who not only was gorgeous, but her house looked like a photo shoot from Architectural Digest. And she was an artist! So no way do I compare to her!

When I had my food business, I had an employee who would occasionally criticize how well I cleaned something. I absolutely loved it because his standards were even more exacting than mine. So I realize that most people don't share my criteria and that's OK, but what gets me is when people shirk their basic human responsibilities, expecting that other people will clean up after them. That is definitely a trigger for me and fortunately my husband is doing a lot better on that front.

I've been doing a major reorganization of the house, donating things we don't use or need and cleaning and putting order to places of chaos. I've reclaimed my basement workshop, which my husband had turned into a random storage area, just dropping off stuff wherever it was convenient for him and never putting it away. He had been leaving his road bike leaning against a cupboard where I have some of my gardening stuff, so I was getting tired of moving it every time I needed to get in there. I ordered him a nice bike rack, like the display racks in bike shops, and put the bike and the rack in the garage.

When I showed it to him, he said, "Oh, that's cool," but not a word of thanks. I mentioned it a couple of times, saying that I was really glad he liked the rack and the third time I mentioned it, he finally said "Thanks." I thought this was pretty funny because he would have gone overboard thanking an acquaintance for some trivial thing, but me... .not so much.

Really the only reason I bought the rack was because his bike was pissing me off so much by always being in my way. But I was glad that he liked it.

Hey Cat, Aren't we back to the same pattern: you buying a bike rack in order to get his appreciation?  And when he doesn't show his gratitude, you get frustrated?  You mention that you were "glad that he liked it"?  LJ

Not really. I bought it because I was irritated that his bike was cluttering up my space and regularly inconveniencing me. I thought he might be annoyed at having to store his bike in the garage, but I didn't care.

I kept probing him because it surprises me that he seems unaware of one of the basic rules of human kindness which is to express appreciation when someone does something nice for you.

Some months ago, I had bought him some luggage and he acted like it was a major inconvenience, rather than realizing that I was thinking about him and how he had been expressing a need for new luggage before an upcoming trip. It wasn't a big deal to me if he didn't want it or like it, but he acted like I had hugely disrupted his life, even though I was the one who returned it to the store.

I wouldn't say that I was frustrated at not receiving thanks, I enjoy doing nice things for people (without strings attached) because it makes me feel good and it's icing on the cake when they are pleased and happy. It strikes me as weird (and entitled) when there's not even a rote "Thank You". He often criticizes his sisters' kids for being so entitled (and elitist) and it seems like he also shares those attributes.

My thought would be to limit the interaction on the bike rack to one time.  After he said "ohh... cool... ." if you are still looking for more... .let him know... .or ask a direct question.  No hinting... .beating around the bush... or pestering.

"How do you feel about the bike rack?"

I would even go so far as...

staying friendly in tone... ."It would mean a lot to me to have some gratitude for this... ."  

be ready for him to ask for more details.

Or... .show him.  Let him say "Oh cool... ." and then drop it.  

Cat,

I get the vibe that your hubby is putting out some effort.  Perhaps in his world... .he is lifting mountains.  I also get the vibe that he is... .or like to play "clueless" about how to "appreciate you".

You seem to have the capacity to be a direct... .no nonsense person.  I would continue that way of being... .to this issue as well.

Now... .on days when he is obviously pissed or acting out.  Just like you would if your horse were upset... .you may approach him a different way.

FF

Ask directly... .be prepared for who knows what to come out.  You have the tools.

My only issue with this "issue" is that "keep probing" is not something we usually see in the toolbox.

FF

PS  Would it have been better, if you could go back in time.  "Hey... .I'm going to reclaim my workshop.  Can you buy a bike rack for your bike and find a new home for it?  Perhaps the garage would be a good location."

In other words.  Lead the horse to water.  If he doesn't drink... .then move the bike. 

You're right, FF. At the time, I was sort of incredulous and I turned it into a game for myself--Let's see if it even occurs to him to thank me!

It's funny because the times he actually makes dinner (rarely), he is so expectant of effusive praise and thanks. If I don't say at least three times how much I like it, he'll question whether or not it's "good."

Yet when I make dinner, often he'll finish without once saying anything or thanking me. Truly a one-way street.

So lots of times I play these games with myself--betting on a particular response from him. I win either way! At the very least, it's entertaining to me.

I'm not going to say that he's not hypocritical, weird, or entitled.

Yeah, it sucks too.

But I don't believe you when you say you weren't frustrated.

Yeah, you probably expect him to let you down this way again... .and he did... .but I do think it was still a bit of a disappointment or frustration for you.

Those feelings are OK, as long as you don't dive down a rabbit hole with them, and start another fight with him over it, or something--you still did the right thing, and that's the important part.

I'm not sure it really is a win. Seems more like a way of pretending that the rejections, dismissal, and double standards don't actually hurt you, even a little bit.

Usually... .when I am "incredulous"... .it's over something that hasn't come up in a while.

For instance... .recently she was trying to volunteer my disabled back into doing things... without even asking.

It felt good for me to push back... .to stand up for myself.  However... .it was likely a side show in the "big strategic picture".  Perhaps it even was a step back in the "war".

I really wish (in hindsight) I was calmer or had let it play out.  I simply should have refused and not pushed back.

I wonder if a similar thing is going on here... .with you.  It was so obvious that the situation need thanks or praise... .that you got repetitive about it.

Perspective:  Just like I don't think any dramatic "damage" was done do to my standing up for myself... .I certainly don't want to suggest that your pestering or whatever is a big consequence.

However... .if we make a habit of focusing on the little things... .the details that matter in our r/s... .very likely that we will get the big things right.

Thoughts?

FF

You're right, Grey Kitty, there is definitely some sadness here when he doesn't respond in the way I think he should--that is--with acknowledgment that I care about him and have done something to show that.

I think, due to my own disability of being on the autism spectrum, that I tolerate a wide range of human behavior, and that has been what has gotten me in trouble with hooking up with BPD spouses.

I don't know that I'm as much frustrated as I am sad. Now when he makes a mess in the house after I've cleaned it, I'm definitely frustrated and pissed.  

FF, yes. I'm learning that I need to be vigilant and not repeat myself. Say things once and that's it. It's a lifelong pattern that I need to interrupt.

I can see why I do that. It's very similar to the motivation to JADE. It's because I was constantly questioned in my FOO by my BPD mother. My word wasn't taken at face value and I had to justify myself.

Time to let that habit go... .

And to accentuate your ability to be direct and no-nonsense.  |iiii

FF

You sound more upset with yourself than you deserve about it.

 :thought: Feeling frustrated and pissed about what he did there is completely healthy and normal on your part. Don't try to talk yourself out of those feelings or hide from them with games.

Working on letting yourself feel these things (without needing to act) can be pretty powerful. Just giving yourself a minute to feel without acting can be a powerful, and also very difficult thing.

 :thought: Living with his poor behavior is part of the choice you made to stay. You have impressively good tools to cope with it. You are patient and tolerant of a lot of things. These are also good and strong characteristics of you.

I suspect that your tolerance is why you stay in these relationships, not why you get into them. Your choices for today seem to be pushing you toward making it work better in place, rather than looking at how to choose somebody healthier for a r/s in the future.

 :thought: And yes, coping better is a work in progress for you, and you are still learning to do things you "already know" better. It is hard. And it always seems like there is another layer to the onion.

Hey Cat, I think you gave yourself the best question to answer, and you know the answer is that in a HEALTHY relationship BOTH partners can be who they are and accepted for it.

PWBPD have very low self esteem and extreme fear of abandonment; they take any opportunity to be the better person (partner), doesn't matter if it is realistic or not.

Thanks, FF, Grey Kitty and lovenature. I feel like I'm on the verge of a profound shift in acceptance--of both me and my husband.

FF, regarding being direct, I realize that: 1. I was blamed and shamed by my mother for being direct, particularly when it regarded her  lol  2. Because I didn't pick up on certain social cues, like other children would, I would say what I thought and felt and then I'd get an unexpected (and often unpleasant) response.

I've spent my adulthood studiously trying to learn how to be socially appropriate and I do well most of the time, with occasional missteps. My psychologist said that she wouldn't have diagnosed me as Asperger's (although my friend, who is a disabled student's counselor did), so I've rather successfully passed. When I presented my T with some written material about how differently Asperger's presents in women and I highlighted all that applied to me, both in the past and currently, she looked at the papers and said, "Wow! Lot of yellow here," which I found very humorous.

So, the upside is that I cannot be other than I am--just not in my nature. However, I've second-guessed myself so much, trying to walk on eggshells around all the ever-present pwBPD in my life. I don't want to make things worse, but it's a fine line between saying something unnecessary--like mentioning the highball glass I found by the sink this morning, reeking of alcohol, containing a soggy Buddhist text and a cloth eyeglass wipe. (Without censoring myself, I would be prone to ask, "What the f* is this?"

That is quite different than asking for help, like I did yesterday, with cleaning out the pH water filter in the basement. And he seemed to enjoy helping! Who knew?

You sound more upset with yourself than you deserve about it.

You got that right, Grey Kitty. Thank you for your kind words. All my life people have told me that I was wrong to feel the way I do and did. Because I instinctively knew that I was different in some way, I've given their opinion more credence than I needed to. I had no lodestar of what was the appropriate response, and being surrounded all my life by borderline personalities, who wanted to manipulate me to accommodate to them, it was all very confusing.

I must give my current husband credit--he really does a good job accepting me most of the time. I guess my current state of mind is twofold: I came here to BPD Family, feeling incredibly duped and angry. I, like so many here, felt like I fell in love with one person and that person disappeared and now I was stuck with a disagreeable individual and I wanted the guy I loved to come back.

And secondly, I now have learned so much about the disorder, about me and how I triggered behavior I didn't want, and most importantly about strategies for making things better between us. I'm incredibly grateful to all you brave and honest people here who share so fully from your heartfelt experience. I've learned a lot. And yes, it is indeed like peeling an onion--there's always another layer to contend with.

Hey Cat, I think you gave yourself the best question to answer, and you know the answer is that in a HEALTHY relationship BOTH partners can be who they are and accepted for it.


Yes, lovenature, you're right. Acceptance is at the heart of any successful relationship. And that is what I had been fighting so hard not to do. I just didn't want to accept that he wasn't 100% the wonderful guy I fell in love with, that he either is an alcoholic or abuses alcohol on a regular basis--though it's not as bad as it was some time ago, but I realize it's not my struggle.

Because he has been so successful in his career, though he doesn't acknowledge it, I've mistakenly assumed that he has more self-esteem than he does, and it surprises me how self-doubting he is.

I've done a lot of things--started a business that I ran for fifteen years, was a reporter, made ends meet by buying and selling things. I was so poor at times that I had to learn how to fix things and make do. I didn't realize that all these experiences would make me incredibly self-reliant and confident of my abilities in the physical world. Now socially, like going to parties with people I don't know--that's an entirely different thing. However, I just start "interviewing" people like I did when I was a reporter and I can endure a party and even have some fun.

But my husband on the outside, seems like the total package: smart, good looking, great social presence. What I didn't realize is that it's all an act--he's like an insecure little kid on the inside with so little confidence it's shocking.

FYI, I think that would be a reasonable response ... .
... .unless you knew your H was a pwBPD... .
... .unless you already knew your H did weird crap like that semi-regularly, making it a predictable/expected WTF moment, rather than something out of the blue.  

So yeah, keeping your mouth shut was the right choice.


My knowledge of Asperger's hardly goes beyond watching Rainman... .so I won't comment on whether that applies to you or not  lol But I can relate to what you are feeling about social cues, etc. in ways that have nothing to do with Asperger's.

My parents are both socially awkward/shy. My dad is just quiet, especially around my mom. My mom is actually pretty easy to talk to, and people seem to like her. But I know that she's horribly nervous about saying/doing the wrong thing, or missing social cues. As a kid, I was really bad that way in person, 'tho I connected well with people online in ancient proto-internet days. Perhaps 'cuz the few people online then were mostly social misfits too; I dunno. [Today I'm pretty good in person, but I am still very socially comfortable online!]

Just as I was starting to come out of my shell, and realize toward the end of my college days that there was room for a geeky guy to have a social life too, and not just online, even think about dating, my wife-to-be kinda pounced on me... .and a bit of FOG, gasligthing, and manipulation started to really mess with my sense of myself.

Many times, my wife (or her FOO) would get upset about something I said. I was told that I was being insensitive or inappropriate or something. I started to believe that I was just clueless about how feelings worked for other people, and that my wife was helping me when I was being corrected. I thought I was very low EQ, and my wife was high EQ. (Without ever hearing the phrase emotional intelligence)

I spent 20 years like that, and since somehow, my wife kept getting triggered at me, was convinced that I just sucked, and would never learn.    

Then the abuse escalated to the point I *had* to get help and support, and I realized that the game I'd been losing more and more over 20 years was rigged from the start.

After I'd healed a bit, I realized that I do have much higher EQ than I believed. Might have all along, 'tho I do believe I'm much better than I was 20 years ago.

Your FOO, and two husbands both rigged the game to make every social cue you reacted or responded to "wrong" and blame you for it. You should feel uncomfortable and confused after that. Whether you have Asperger's or not!

Hey Cat, PWBPD can appear very confident and charismatic due to mirroring others; it works for them until, as you know, they get too close to someone (romantic partner in particular), then you see the lack of sense of self in them, the low self esteem, the childish behaviour. Remember that BPD is a serious mental illness, and only years of therapy can manage (not fix) their behaviour.

On the "good, better, best scale... .I would vote for going a bit beyond this. 

I agree... ."WTF" is appropriate for nons... but would be counterproductive.

":)irect but non-judgmental" is likely the best way to go about it.

"Hey... .can you grab those dishes in there and bring them in.  I'm getting ready to load the dishwasher."

Remember... there are two battlegrounds here.  There is a result that you are after (no more nasty cup) but there is an added battleground of his feelings.

I think you still need to consider his feelings... .BUT... .focus first on getting your result and try to go about it in a good way.

Have you ever tried... ."It would mean a lot to me if... ."

Perhaps short and direct is best... ."Please put your glass in the dishwasher"

What do you think he would react best to?

FF

Cat, I've mentioned before that we might be married to the same guy. My H is also the total package in non personal situations. The relationship issues felt like they came out of the blue. I found that trying to get "too close" into his feelings didn't go very well. I think this "total package" depends on some emotional distance. Your H knows you know him better than anyone else. I think this is hard for him as he wants to be seen as the total package by you.

It was hard to not take this personally- to think - you are great for everyone but me. I know that I have resented this situation. My H has accused me of that " you talk nicely to everyone but me". I don't know if this is true or just a reflection of having walked on eggshells.

Your H is high functioning- which is a benefit, but it takes a lot of energy to be that total package person. To some extent, we all do this- we are on our best behaviors at work and in social situations. When we are home, we let our image down a bit. But being almost a different person outside the home takes a lot of effort and your H may not have the energy to be that person all the time and just lets go at home.

It may be that you having AS was an attraction to him. For someone who can be emotional, having a more emotionally "cool" partner may feel stable to him. Also someone who isn't so emotionally dependent may be more comfortable to him. I don't have AS but I am also pretty independent. But it can also be a set up for feeling rejected if you don't think your partner "needs" you in any way. Like you, I resist leaning on anyone- perhaps because my own mother so frequently let me down, it is hard to trust that people won't. But are there ways your H can be there for you? Maybe he's bad at fixing things, but good or better at other things. Or maybe let him try, even if he doesn't always follow through or do it well.



What I have learned is that the guy I married is the one in front of me- the one who is the total package to some people and then, just needs to be accepted for who he is when not being the total package. That isn't real anyway. Most of us are good at some things and not so good at others. There are probably things about me that aggravate my H as well. Both of us are pretty sensitive to feeling shamed growing up, so I try to be empathetic about that.

I get aggravated too sometimes. At the moment, we are having company for Thanksgiving and my H has packed the fridge with his favorite stuff. I have no idea where I will put something as large as the turkey. We just don't do well sharing space. I will have to figure out something for the holiday, but I am actually considering buying a refrigerator as a solution for this in the future.

Amazing the "exact sameness" of the problems we have with them.

I would buy another fridge in a heartbeat... .if I really thought "it could be just mine".  I would likely put it in the garage. 

Oh wait... .there is no room in the garage (that we share).  In fact... .I don't think you could walk through the garage at the moment.

Of course I get blamed for it.  Truth is, I won't put more energy into the garage until rules are established on how it is used.  Which likely isn't going to happen.

Several times since we moved in I've got the garage "perfect", she has sworn she will do better. 

She will stack stuff or toss stuff... .literally... .until you can't walk out there.   Yes... .open the door and just chuck stuff out there, it lands where it lands and is then out of her hair.

Sigh... .

Any ideas on addressing this?

FF

No, I just had a meltdown about not having room for the turkey. His reply was kinda victim. "well if you took better care of me I wouldn't have to buy all that food" Horse crap. I was the perfect Stepford wife for years and it didn't help our issues. Now that I am working again, I don't have time to be the perfect cook. I still do most of all the household work- and cooking and shopping. The man hasn't washed a dish in decades. But the focus is on me doing less.

Ok now past the rant.

I don't get it. I am not OCD, in fact, I am a "messy" but I need a certain amount of order and I do the housework, so I am constantly trying to keep order in the home, but feeling like it is swimming upstream sometimes. BPD mother had to have everything perfect. One thing out of place and it would be a crisis. If we left a toy out by accident, it would end up in the trash. I don't even cook in her house because one spot on her kitchen would not go well. So, I don't know what to do with the encroachment on space in my home.

Cat... .thanks for the thread that I can hijack... .for just a bit!   |iiii

I'm certainly not a neat nick, but I do like order and predictability.  

Yesterday, we get home from church and my wife goes into the laundry room and starts "organizing" ; giving a speech while doing it.  Kids went to another part of the house... .I caught about 50% of the speech.

Note:  I do 90% of the laundry in the house... .perhaps a bit higher.  Soo... .I like to know where to reach to get the bleach... .to get the stain spray for all the grass stains on jeans... . And... .there are always projects in work in that room.  It is a rare day that the washer or dryer isn't running in our house.

Yet... for some reason she felt compelled to "organize" it.  

The old FF would have asked her to "ask me first" or otherwise get involved.  Today I moved stuff back to where I like it and continued on.

After the laundry room she went to the pantry where we have a chest freezer... .more ranting and tossing stuff around.  At some point the energy dissipated and it was over.

I can let those things go, but the garage is a different story.  With cold weather, I need to reclaim it to do some car repairs (instead of outside in the street).  Not exactly sure how I'm going to do that.

Sigh... .

FF

Thanks, everybody. I'm learning so much here and appreciate y'all's help. It's been a struggle to accept that the man I fell in love with will never return, but the one that shows up most of the time is still a nice guy (very different from my first BPD husband).

Now that I've realized that much of what I had always felt was "wrong" with me: feeling overwhelmed by crowds, bright lighting, strong smells, and noise; not doing well with verbal instructions; others misunderstanding my words and actions; being perceived as cold and aloof; uncomfortable with socializing at parties--all this is due to a sensory processing disorder--Asperger's. On the positive side, it has given me an incredible ability to focus on things that are of interest to me. Having grown up in a family with a mentally ill mother, it's a relief knowing that I'm not also mentally ill, my senses just get overwhelmed by too much stimuli. I have a feeling that there are a lot of us out there, who are not extreme enough on the spectrum to be diagnosable, but discomfited enough by modern life that we want to retreat from too much stimulation. And that is why I choose to live in my rural paradise and want to spend as little time as possible in big cities.

I have recently started asking my husband for help when I've been in the process of fixing something and to my surprise, he's been receptive. I think the difference is that I've already started doing whatever it is that needs to be done. Because he doesn't have much experience doing things, when I've asked him beforehand, I think he feels insecure and worried. If I'm in the middle of a task, he doesn't need to feel threatened, because he can assume that I'm confident enough to figure it out, or I wouldn't have started it in the first place.

With regard to the highball glass containing the gin-soaked Buddhist text and the eyeglass cloth--I was fascinated. I wondered what on earth was the story here. Of course if I had asked, it would have just triggered shame so I ignored its presence and later he had washed it and put it away. (This is a good example of wanting to get too into his feelings and how counterproductive it would have been if I had asked.)

I think you're onto something, Notwendy, about an attraction between a very emotional pwBPD and a very cool Aspie. I suspect there are a lot of us on this site who've been called nerds, geeky, tech-ie, or have been bullied as kids for being too scholarly.

And then, down the line, that coolness, aloofness, emotional self-sufficiency that we have is now seen as a negative and we're accused of not caring, not being emotionally connected.

"She will stack stuff or toss stuff... .literally... .until you can't walk out there.   Yes... .open the door and just chuck stuff out there, it lands where it lands and is then out of her hair."


I had to laugh, FF. I just dealt with sorting out his mess in my basement workshop and today I'm getting the unfinished basement under our garage framed so that my husband can have his own storage there!

"well if you took better care of me I wouldn't have to buy all that food"  My husband will look in the cupboards and refrigerator and say, "There's no food here." I look and both the cupboards and refrigerator are full of food--it just takes some effort to assemble the ingredients. Then he'll tell me, "You never go to the grocery store." I do, but only when I need something that I haven't grown in my garden. When I go, I buy ingredients in bulk so that there's always staples with which to cook something. The Always/Never talk used to drive me crazy until I realized it is yet another BPD issue.

Good luck reclaiming your garage, FF. It felt so good to get my workshop back.

Compromise is a very important part of a healthy relationship, but considering a PWBPD makes up their own reality to fit their current emotion of the moment, it only stands to reason that they aren't capable of it; low self esteem only further hinders compromise.

No, dude!

Rules and agreements only seem to work 'till they blow up, then you get pissed because your wife violated the agreement/rule. Stop trying to make them with her, or only make them for a single event, rather than an ongoing basis.

The picture I get from you is that there is "Your space", "Her space", and "Shared space" in the house. She's gonna roll over you in the "shared space", either out of being busy/lazy/distracted, or being dysregulated and wanting to blast over your boundaries.

Your "solution" on the laundry room was perfect. Let her reorganize and rant, vacate the space while she does it, and put things back how they work for you next time you do laundry.


My suggestion would be to pick a time when you will be using the garage to do the car repair. Give her about a week's notice. Something like this:

"I need to do (job) on (car) in the garage next week. Sometime this week, I'm going to clear out space for the job one way or the other. Would you like me to [take stuff to thrift store; take stuff to dump; pile stuff under a tarp in the driveway; insert other fairly quick solution to empty the space for the job]. I can spend a day dealing with the stuff this week."

First, you are telling her, not negotiating with her. Yes, she can offer a counter-proposal and open negotiations.

Second, you are not demanding that she do anything or agree to anything... .you are presenting some sort of solution, even though you know it isn't exactly what she wants.

Third, you are pretty clearly leaving yourself open to a "better" way of clearing out space to work on a car in the garage... .if she wants to do it.

  CF, sorry to jump on the hijacked train so hard!

No prob, Grey Kitty, and this is also an issue I deal with all the time.

When I cleaned up the basement, I organized his stuff that rightfully belonged there, but at the same time, we also had a rodent infestation, so there were things that weren't in plastic storage tubs and rodents had gotten into things and stored acorns and left droppings.

I bought traps and caught several of them , then I cleaned up the space to the point where it was safe to house one of our cats, who now loves her own private room down there.

I brought all his stuff that shouldn't have been put there and deposited it in his studio, saying that I had cleaned out the rodent mess and I didn't want his things to be harmed.

There was nothing he could say, though I knew it aggrieved him to have even more chaos in his studio. In the past, I've brought stacks of magazines and books he's abandoned in the house into his studio and he has gotten mad about me "cluttering up" his space.

I continue to do that, but now I just change my approach. "I'm cleaning the house now, so I'm returning your stuff." It still irritates him, but at least he understands that I don't want to clean around his stuff.

There is no negotiation and if I were to ask him to put his stuff away, you can imagine the response, and then he wouldn't do it anyway, or there would be an excuse why he wouldn't do it. So I circumvent all that and just do what I want.

I've kinda done something like this before... .it didn't really work out too well.  It all depends on whether or not she wants to build up a head of steam and cause a ruckus.

My issue is that once I get done cleaning out garage... .I usually need a day or so of downtime before I jump into a "heavy" project.  She will normally find a couple things that she determines doesn't need to be in the house or wherever she finds them... .and you can guess where they go.

Garage has been unusable for several months now.  She will come to me and complain... .that's easy... I just say no or walk away.

The "nice approach" is harder to deal with, because I try to work out our understanding of use of the space, which quickly falls apart.  I don't get upset, even though she does... .and let her know I'm fine with talking about it a future date.

I chuckle as I think back to a Charlie Brown analogy.  I imagine myself being CB and she is Lucy holding the football.  We are now at the stage where it is dawning on her that I'm not going to kick the football anymore.

FF

FF, you seem to be pulling a doom-and-gloom "nothing will work" thing here, in directions that seem to be almost contradictory.

You don't think you can come to an agreement with her about cleaning the garage.

You also said she's been upset about the garage for a while now, and you just leave when she starts complaining at you.

Does she want it cleaned up or not? She may need to "blame" you for the mess in there. Doesn't matter; let that go! No need to prove anything there--what matters is who gets the stuff out, or whether it stays put.


You are making this too complicated. First off, put the car you will be working on as soon as you do it.

Second, if anything "appears" in the garage, put it anyplace else until you are done working on the car. She may not be "happy" but you really ought to be able to simply move things into another room or just outside faster than she can load them in! Surely the garage is not the only "shared" space in the house!


Make the choice/decision/action be temporary--Say that this is just while you do a few things to the car(s). When you are done with the car work, you will leave the garage open... .and don't have to fight if she puts stuff back in it.

And if she decides she does want to make this a huge issue, then working on cars gets hired out to a mechanic, or waits 'till spring.

And for the record, I really REALLY like CF's solution--If stuff that you cannot deal with piles up in a shared space, put it into her space. She'll get grumpy, but she'll cope.

Apparently... .she wants it clean... .but does not wan to alter any of her or the kids behavior that resulted in the current condition.

Been down this road several times. 

My P nailed the contradiction that the apparently operates on.  She wants complete predictability from everyone around her, but does not want anyone to question her predictability.   She wants to feel like she is stable and predictable... .even when she is not.

Yeah... .there is some doom and gloom in there.  I want a clean garage... .much... much less than she does (at the moment). 

FF

I keep forgetting how many kids are in your house. If getting the garage clean and keeping it that way involves changing the behavior of half a dozen kids, that's gonna require more than something simple and easy like CF piling stuff in her H's study.

Maybe S.E.T. about the kids contribution to the mess in the garage, and the need to change their behavior to have a different result?

Maybe not. I remember times I tried to put on Logic Man's cape and tights, and tell my wife that the choice she was making had consequences that went with it... .you can guess how far that flew!

 
The kids are generally obedient... .90 some percent of the time they are acting on what they were just told. 

"Go toss that in the garage... ."  (direct quote)

We've had family meetings about it... .when I tell them to do things... .they do it.  There have been a few times I have "countermanded" something my wife told them to do and I won.  I made sure it was a safety issue... .something worth it. 

What I try to avoid is getting in a power struggle with her... .with a kid in the middle. 

At the moment... .the garage would be flunked by any building inspector worth his salt.  There is no pathway from the door to the garage (that leads to the laundry room and house) to the garage door for cars.  In other words, the fire exit is blocked. 

There are other pathways close by.  Yes... I've used the "fire exit" reasoning before... .and to my wife's credit (in an odd way) she was not passive aggressive or anything.  She just said "no". 

If she wants to toss boxes out there... .she is tossing.

FF