I'm still trying to fix things...sigh...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My husband just breezed through the kitchen after printing something on my printer. I know the grim facial expression well and his desire to not spend much time in my presence, so I ask, "Are you OK?"

"Not really," he replies.

"What's wrong?" I ask, taking the bait.

"Oh, a couple of things," he says as he leaves.

I suspect it has to do with me taping a connection to his computer a few minutes ago. As I was doing it, I held the wire in place between my knees, which he objected to. "I'm not putting any stress on it, I'm just keeping it in place," I said.

He told me not to tape over the plug part. DUH!

I said, "You're welcome to do this if you want."

When I finished, he said I did a good job.

I said, "As the daughter of an electrician, I was playing with electrical tape before I could talk."

So now I think he's pissed off at me. I suppressed the urge to try and smooth things over. If I can't be me, what's the point of being in a relationship?

[Cat Familiar]

My husband just breezed through the kitchen after printing something on my printer. I know the grim facial expression well and his desire to not spend much time in my presence, so I ask, "Are you OK?"

"Not really," he replies.

"What's wrong?" I ask, taking the bait.

"Oh, a couple of things," he says as he leaves.

I suspect it has to do with me taping a connection to his computer a few minutes ago. As I was doing it, I held the wire in place between my knees, which he objected to. "I'm not putting any stress on it, I'm just keeping it in place," I said.

He told me not to tape over the plug part. DUH!

I said, "You're welcome to do this if you want."

When I finished, he said I did a good job.

I said, "As the daughter of an electrician, I was playing with electrical tape before I could talk."

So now I think he's pissed off at me. I suppressed the urge to try and smooth things over. If I can't be me, what's the point of being in a relationship?

[Cat Familiar]

When I wrote "fix things", I meant fixing his emotional state. Then I realized that I'm the only one in the relationship that fixes objects, often the objects he breaks through not paying attention.

[Grey Kitty]

Did you just have a moment there, or have you improved on not trying to "fix" your husband?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cat, Why are you fixing things, objects and emotions, for him?  LJ

[Cat Familiar]

Did you just have a moment there, or have you improved on not trying to "fix" your husband?

I caught myself just as I was about to try to "work things out" like I would with a normal person. It's a one-way street, as he doesn't seem to give a flying fig about offending me.

Hey Cat, Why are you fixing things, objects and emotions, for him?

I guess I get a fair amount of self-esteem from my ability to fix things, although I've never been able to "fix" his emotions, yet I've tried constantly, until I started coming here and realized what a fruitless endeavor it is.

Yet, I still catch myself trying or worse, I don't catch myself... .

Good questions. Thank you, Grey Kitty and Lucky Jim.

[formflier]

"What's wrong?" I ask, taking the bait.

 

This would be the thing I would consider doing differently.

"Something on your mind you would like to talk about?"

or

"It would mean a lot to me if you could share your feelings right now... ."

Suggesting that something is "wrong"... .likely not best course of action.

FF

[KateCat]

I am a big fan of never asking what is wrong.  

In this case, could the problem be something like this?

In an interview with Trump biographer Michael D’Antonio, Ivana Trump recounted an incident from their courtship, a ski trip to Colorado. She had not told the real estate mogul she was an accomplished skier.

Trump skied down first.

“So he goes and stops, and he says, ‘Come on, baby. Come on, baby,’ “ Ivana Trump said. “I went up. I went two flips up in the air, two flips in front of him. I disappeared. Donald was so angry, he took off his skis, his ski boots, and walked up to the restaurant. ... .He could not take it. He could not take it.”

www.rawstory.com/2016/10/ivana-trump-says-her-former-husband-can-be-a-cry-baby/

It's got to be frustrating to you when you have a particular skill for a particularly understandable reason. Probably just like the future Ivana Trump. But it is probably still wounding to your husband. How sad when a person cannot take delight in a spouse's accomplishments. But understanding and detaching from the disappointment of this can be very freeing.

[Cat Familiar]

Good point, FF and KateCat about not asking what's wrong. As Grey Kitty says, "Nothing good will come of that."

And yes, I think you're onto something, KateCat. He doesn't get much opportunity as a retired lawyer to show expertise in his field, whereas for me, I do that daily. Tonight something was wrong with one of the burners on the stove and I took out the manual, but he figured out how to fix it while I continued making dinner. I made sure to let him know how much I appreciated that.

[Notwendy]

I would agree that your expertise- and stepping into fix the computer may have triggered an insecurity in him.

That doesn't take away from you being a competent person. In fact, you shouldn't act as if you can't do it. You can and he knows it. But one question is- did he ask you to fix it, or did you step in to do it?

When we step in to do things that other people can do for themselves, we can send an invalidating message- and this can be triggering to someone with BPD.

There is a message from parenting that can help here. As a parent, we do most chores better than a child at first- cleaning the house, doing laundry, washing dishes, but to teach the child to do them, we have to not do them and let the child learn. We've seen children struggle to learn a task, stubbornly insisting " I can do it myself". As parents, we have to step back and let them do it themselves, even if we can do it better. If we step in, we can invalidate the child.

Many of us grew up in invalidating homes. I know that my FIL was very critical. My H is very good at handiwork in the home and doesn't want me to do it. However, I was quite OK doing a lot of things before we met- but he is much better at them and would rather do them. One of our issues when we were first married was his refusal to help with anything he considered "woman's work" in the home. This made me crazy as - this isn't the 1950s! I didn't mind doing most of it, but all of it? Now, I think - well he grew up with a traditional mother who did everything, and maybe he just doesn't know how to do these things and rather than do them poorly in front of me, he would save face by refusing and giving me that reason.

I am better with working a computer. Sometimes I can hear my H getting angry at his computer when something went wrong. Instead of fixing, I just sit back and let him figure it out. If he later asks me, I will try to fix the issue if I can,  but I think that "let me do it myself" drive is something to respect.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, it's a fine dance to not invalidate. In this case, he sorta asked me to fix it. His BPD way of doing that is to say something like "We need to fix this." And of course, nothing will happen if I don't do it. Then he'll merely repeat the same message a few weeks later or he will just ignore the problem until it finally causes the system to crash or something completely breaks.

Because I'm the maintenance person around here, I step in and fix things. I do need to support him in doing repairs on his own, just like you would encourage a child, something I think he never got in his FOO.

I think of the biblical quote about not hiding one's light under a bushel or the Marianne Williamson quote: https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/17297.Marianne_Williamson

It's just so hard to dance around their fragile egos sometimes.

[formflier]

  His BPD way of doing that is to say something like "We need to fix this." 

Perhaps you could say... ."I agree this needs to be done.  What is your plan to address this issue?"

I HATE the we stuff... .  In my r/s it shows up when there is an explantion for something going wrong.  "We" will be more careful next time... .  There are many times I was literally... .not involved at all.  Not even present... .

FF

[Lucky Jim]

I guess I get a fair amount of self-esteem from my ability to fix things, although I've never been able to "fix" his emotions, yet I've tried constantly, until I started coming here and realized what a fruitless endeavor it is.

Hey Cat, That was an honest response to my question!  You identified the issue: it's one way in which you get self-esteem.  Worth thinking about why you do it, which may involve delving into FOO issues.  Perhaps you could also consider whether this is a healthy dynamic for you?  I used to think that care taking my BPDxW was a loving thing, but I came to see that it was unhealthy for me and for her.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

Cat,

It's been a while since I've posted in your threads. 

This is me trying to catch up a bit.

Any changes in the big picture of the r/s?  What ever happened with the luggage you got him... .and he was so weird about it?

Are you guys having more intimate times or time when he is not ticked off about something?

Wasn't there an issue about him cooking or mess making in the kitchen... .something like that.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think my H and I are good at different things. One big difference is that he had a "take care of everyone's needs" mother, and well, we had to make do on our own as well as take care of my BPD mother's needs. I went into the marriage having been able to take care of things around the house since I was 12. I also had to learn to manage money and other life skills from a young age. H can do handyman things- but I think his childhood was more "normal" in that he didn't have to be an adult at a young age. So, he still had to learn things I already knew how to do.

As hard as it is to step back and not do something you know you can do better, that is the only real way someone learns. If it isn't life altering- then let your H make a mistake. Let the computer be broken. Then, the broken computer becomes his problem to figure out.

It was very difficult for us to step out of the way when my father died and left mom to manage finances on her own. We feared she would mismanage them, which she did. My father didn't say no to her, she spent whatever she wanted. But he also provided the money and without him, there would not be what she was used to coming in. Well, she didn't want our help- it was her money. Only when she saw her savings diminish and not be replenished did she realize she needed to manage her budget. But she had to experience that to figure it out. Had we managed it for her, she would not have.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, Lucky Jim, formflier and Notwendy. I agree that it would be good for me to step back from fixing things that he could manage himself. Actually I think my bigger issue is getting triggered by his bad moods and wanting to "fix" things (meaning his mood) so that he'll be happy again. We actually did have a rather productive conversation where he admitted that he'd been "grumpy" and I was able to tell him that I was tired of him behaving like I was such a negative influence in his life.

He tried to turn it around on me and say that I was "projecting" and that I was getting into "poor me" territory. I said that was absolutely not the case. It hurt my feelings when he would glare at me then abruptly leave the room or speak harshly to me. I felt that I hadn't done anything wrong and that it was really unpleasant to be the recipient of that sort of behavior. And if I had done something to offend him, I would appreciate knowing about it so I wouldn't do it again.

I think he did realize that he was being a grouch. Often it really has nothing to do with me. One of his friends was recently diagnosed with cancer.  Another issue was that he was having difficulty deciding whether or not to keep a new laptop he had bought since he also bought the next version--talk about a first world problem! Jeez! But in that decision, he had to remove all the programs he had installed on the laptop before he returned it to Apple and transfer all the info to his desktop, which was taking a long time.

So he's grumpy about that and therefore acts like an ass to me. And then wonders why I don't want to spend time with him and would rather hang out with animals, do gardening projects, housework, household repairs. Of course, I want to do things that make me feel useful and happy rather than be around someone in a bad mood.

But, here's the rub--I still have the urge to try and "fix" his mood, though history tells me that's opening up a can of worms and things will be worse off than before if I try. Thankfully I'm learning the self control to restrain myself.

To answer your question about FOO stuff, Lucky Jim, I think I enjoy being competent in the physical world because my BPD mother was always criticizing my efforts. Then my first BPD husband continued that pattern on steroids. When I divorced him, I realized that I was far more able than I'd ever given myself credit for and I tackled all sorts of things, like building a house. I guess what I need to do is not to try and get appreciation for doing things for my husband, rather just do things that I enjoy and want to do for myself. He is incredibly gracious with acquaintances and strangers but it doesn't seem to occur to him to even thank me for something I've done that only benefits him. So enough of that!

FF, thanks for asking. We're still like roommates and not much more. I do try to be affectionate and I think he is largely in the push away part of BPD. He once said he felt vulnerable and didn't trust me--I think that meant with his feelings because there's no way I'd ever do anything to betray him in the marital sense.

I returned the luggage. Now that he's inherited a lot of money, he has to have the finest, most high tech things and Samsonite from Costco just didn't cut it. He went to England for a couple of weeks to retrace his childhood memories and during that time, I totally spiffed up the house.

One morning, after he had returned from his trip, I awoke to a f*ing disaster in the kitchen. He'd been drinking and had left a mess. I was so discouraged what he'd done to my nice clean kitchen that I couldn't even make my morning coffee. Instead, I fed the animals and cleaned out the horse stalls. Hours later, when he finally had wandered into the kitchen and somewhat cleaned up his mess, I returned. I told him I felt profoundly disrespected by him leaving a mess after I had worked so hard to make the house nice. Since then, he's done a far better job cleaning up after himself.

Notwendy, I'm all for not intervening when it doesn't make any difference in my life. However, being kinda OCD, it really bugs me to have things done poorly. So I'll let him f* up his stuff, but not mine.  

[Notwendy]

t is my H who is picky about his stuff being just so, so we don't share some things. He has areas of the house that are his only- a place in the basement, a little office, and his stuff to have as only his.

I am more laid back about things, so it works better if we have separate stuff because we both have different emotional reactions to people sharing it.

I know the washer dryer has been an issue - with your H leaving his wet clothes in there and ruining it. One solution I would consider is getting him his own so you could keep yours the way you want it. 

Some of our solutions to sharing things feel more like college room mates than spouses, but it seems to avoid conflicts better. Maybe it comes down to different boundaries- who is more territorial and who is not.

[Lucky Jim]

I guess what I need to do is not to try and get appreciation for doing things for my husband, rather just do things that I enjoy and want to do for myself.

Right, Cat, that's your task: to find self-esteem from within, rather than outsourcing it.

LJ

[formflier]

I guess what I need to do is not to try and get appreciation for doing things for my husband,

I'm going to push back on this a bit... .and say that you should be deliberate about giving him the opportunity, but hopefully you can be in a place where what he actually says doesn't matter to much to you... .personally.

If you do something for him, I think totally appropriate to say/ask "I'm done with X... .what do you think?"  or "Is it working for you?"

That's not fishing for a complement, it's normal communication.  If that is the kind of communication you desire, ESPECIALLY because fixing things is important to you, I would continue with that type of thing.

Unless you figure out that this kind of thing goes to  a "core shame issue"... .or something particularly difficult for your hubby... .realize it's not your job to make life easy and acceptable for your hubby.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I know I am a bit nitpicky, well maybe more than a bit... .  I don't think I'd like to be my roommate. That said, I give credit to "trying" and realize that not everybody has standards that are the same. People have called me a perfectionist, but that term makes me think of my aunt, who not only was gorgeous, but her house looked like a photo shoot from Architectural Digest. And she was an artist! So no way do I compare to her!

When I had my food business, I had an employee who would occasionally criticize how well I cleaned something. I absolutely loved it because his standards were even more exacting than mine. So I realize that most people don't share my criteria and that's OK, but what gets me is when people shirk their basic human responsibilities, expecting that other people will clean up after them. That is definitely a trigger for me and fortunately my husband is doing a lot better on that front.

I've been doing a major reorganization of the house, donating things we don't use or need and cleaning and putting order to places of chaos. I've reclaimed my basement workshop, which my husband had turned into a random storage area, just dropping off stuff wherever it was convenient for him and never putting it away. He had been leaving his road bike leaning against a cupboard where I have some of my gardening stuff, so I was getting tired of moving it every time I needed to get in there. I ordered him a nice bike rack, like the display racks in bike shops, and put the bike and the rack in the garage.

When I showed it to him, he said, "Oh, that's cool," but not a word of thanks. I mentioned it a couple of times, saying that I was really glad he liked the rack and the third time I mentioned it, he finally said "Thanks." I thought this was pretty funny because he would have gone overboard thanking an acquaintance for some trivial thing, but me... .not so much.

Really the only reason I bought the rack was because his bike was pissing me off so much by always being in my way. But I was glad that he liked it.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Cat, Aren't we back to the same pattern: you buying a bike rack in order to get his appreciation?  And when he doesn't show his gratitude, you get frustrated?  You mention that you were "glad that he liked it"?  LJ

[Cat Familiar]

Hey Cat, Aren't we back to the same pattern: you buying a bike rack in order to get his appreciation?  And when he doesn't show his gratitude, you get frustrated?  You mention that you were "glad that he liked it"?  LJ

Not really. I bought it because I was irritated that his bike was cluttering up my space and regularly inconveniencing me. I thought he might be annoyed at having to store his bike in the garage, but I didn't care.

I kept probing him because it surprises me that he seems unaware of one of the basic rules of human kindness which is to express appreciation when someone does something nice for you.

Some months ago, I had bought him some luggage and he acted like it was a major inconvenience, rather than realizing that I was thinking about him and how he had been expressing a need for new luggage before an upcoming trip. It wasn't a big deal to me if he didn't want it or like it, but he acted like I had hugely disrupted his life, even though I was the one who returned it to the store.

I wouldn't say that I was frustrated at not receiving thanks, I enjoy doing nice things for people (without strings attached) because it makes me feel good and it's icing on the cake when they are pleased and happy. It strikes me as weird (and entitled) when there's not even a rote "Thank You". He often criticizes his sisters' kids for being so entitled (and elitist) and it seems like he also shares those attributes.

[formflier]

My thought would be to limit the interaction on the bike rack to one time.  After he said "ohh... cool... ." if you are still looking for more... .let him know... .or ask a direct question.  No hinting... .beating around the bush... or pestering.

"How do you feel about the bike rack?"

I would even go so far as...

staying friendly in tone... ."It would mean a lot to me to have some gratitude for this... ."  

be ready for him to ask for more details.

Or... .show him.  Let him say "Oh cool... ." and then drop it.  

Cat,

I get the vibe that your hubby is putting out some effort.  Perhaps in his world... .he is lifting mountains.  I also get the vibe that he is... .or like to play "clueless" about how to "appreciate you".

You seem to have the capacity to be a direct... .no nonsense person.  I would continue that way of being... .to this issue as well.

Now... .on days when he is obviously pissed or acting out.  Just like you would if your horse were upset... .you may approach him a different way.

FF

[formflier]

I kept probing him because it surprises me that he seems unaware of one of the basic rules of human kindness which is to express appreciation when someone does something nice for you.
 

Ask directly... .be prepared for who knows what to come out.  You have the tools.

My only issue with this "issue" is that "keep probing" is not something we usually see in the toolbox.

FF

PS  Would it have been better, if you could go back in time.  "Hey... .I'm going to reclaim my workshop.  Can you buy a bike rack for your bike and find a new home for it?  Perhaps the garage would be a good location."

In other words.  Lead the horse to water.  If he doesn't drink... .then move the bike. 

[Cat Familiar]

You're right, FF. At the time, I was sort of incredulous and I turned it into a game for myself--Let's see if it even occurs to him to thank me!

It's funny because the times he actually makes dinner (rarely), he is so expectant of effusive praise and thanks. If I don't say at least three times how much I like it, he'll question whether or not it's "good."

Yet when I make dinner, often he'll finish without once saying anything or thanking me. Truly a one-way street.

So lots of times I play these games with myself--betting on a particular response from him. I win either way! At the very least, it's entertaining to me.

[Grey Kitty]

I wouldn't say that I was frustrated at not receiving thanks, I enjoy doing nice things for people (without strings attached) because it makes me feel good and it's icing on the cake when they are pleased and happy. It strikes me as weird (and entitled) when there's not even a rote "Thank You". He often criticizes his sisters' kids for being so entitled (and elitist) and it seems like he also shares those attributes.

I'm not going to say that he's not hypocritical, weird, or entitled.

Yeah, it sucks too.

But I don't believe you when you say you weren't frustrated.

Yeah, you probably expect him to let you down this way again... .and he did... .but I do think it was still a bit of a disappointment or frustration for you.

Those feelings are OK, as long as you don't dive down a rabbit hole with them, and start another fight with him over it, or something--you still did the right thing, and that's the important part.

[Grey Kitty]

So lots of times I play these games with myself--betting on a particular response from him. I win either way! At the very least, it's entertaining to me.

I'm not sure it really is a win. Seems more like a way of pretending that the rejections, dismissal, and double standards don't actually hurt you, even a little bit.

[formflier]

  I was sort of incredulous and I turned it into a game for myself

Usually... .when I am "incredulous"... .it's over something that hasn't come up in a while.

For instance... .recently she was trying to volunteer my disabled back into doing things... without even asking.

It felt good for me to push back... .to stand up for myself.  However... .it was likely a side show in the "big strategic picture".  Perhaps it even was a step back in the "war".

I really wish (in hindsight) I was calmer or had let it play out.  I simply should have refused and not pushed back.

I wonder if a similar thing is going on here... .with you.  It was so obvious that the situation need thanks or praise... .that you got repetitive about it.

Perspective:  Just like I don't think any dramatic "damage" was done do to my standing up for myself... .I certainly don't want to suggest that your pestering or whatever is a big consequence.

However... .if we make a habit of focusing on the little things... .the details that matter in our r/s... .very likely that we will get the big things right.

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

You're right, Grey Kitty, there is definitely some sadness here when he doesn't respond in the way I think he should--that is--with acknowledgment that I care about him and have done something to show that.

I think, due to my own disability of being on the autism spectrum, that I tolerate a wide range of human behavior, and that has been what has gotten me in trouble with hooking up with BPD spouses.

I don't know that I'm as much frustrated as I am sad. Now when he makes a mess in the house after I've cleaned it, I'm definitely frustrated and pissed.  

[Cat Familiar]

FF, yes. I'm learning that I need to be vigilant and not repeat myself. Say things once and that's it. It's a lifelong pattern that I need to interrupt.

I can see why I do that. It's very similar to the motivation to JADE. It's because I was constantly questioned in my FOO by my BPD mother. My word wasn't taken at face value and I had to justify myself.

Time to let that habit go... .

[formflier]

 

Time to let that habit go... .

And to accentuate your ability to be direct and no-nonsense. 

FF