BPDFamily.com

Been dating, gave up on dating, started dating again.
Now I found this woman that is really wonderful, actually she found me, No red flags that I can see yet. We have been dating for about 4 months.
She is everything my BPD ex is not. She is caring and considerate, she is thoughtful. She has friends. She is respectful, she dumped all of her guy friends and made it very clear she has a boyfriend that she is happy with. She spends no time with her girl friends. She leaves her phone unlocked. She is open and honest as far as I can see.

We are in the process of moving in together. Maybe a little fast but with school starting it was time to get her kids enrolled since she didn't live here and that pushed the issue.
So I have her kids living with me, I take them to school everyday, I feed them, I clothe them. I am raising them as my own. She will not move here for 6 more weeks because of work.

I see this woman that I believe is way out of my league. I think I finally found a woman that is normal, but I can't understand why she wants to be with me?

That is the hard part. I cannot just let go. I cannot just accept and be happy. I over analyze everything she says. I don't trust what comes out of her mouth or what she writes me. I keep trying to look for her angle and how she is going to "get" me.

But look at her actions. She dumped all of her guy friends, she never does anything that would make me question if there was anyone else ever, she moved her kids to be with me and believe me that is huge for her to let them go. She keeps moving stuff to my house. She keeps making plans for a future with me.
She didn't have to move, she wanted to be with me and that is the only reason she is moving her family.
She has given me no reason not to trust her. Her actions tell me she wants this too. Not just her words.

But, I can't let go and just trust or believe and I feel it will eventually lead to problems.
when I say trust it is not like I ever accuse her of anything, it is a matter of the heart. I know I am holding back. I know I am protecting myself and she has never given me reason to.

I take the lack of love bombing common with a BPD and I try to twist that into she is not interested in me.
Then I say she is using me to raise her kids but she has paid for everything. Not a freeloader.
I can't stop looking for fault.

One of the saddest things is when the relationship started taking off I stopped her and asked her what meds she takes. That is pretty messed up isn't it? She didn't deserve that.

Yet she has been so supportive and patient with me and I cannot understand why this beautiful young woman wants anything to do with me.

Anyone else go through this?  
Am I just not ready? I say ready because does anyone ever completely heal from BPD partner?

I think it would help us guide you if you can lay down the timeline of your wife moving out, the divorce date, when you started dating, etc.

In general, with your wife of 10 years moving out in January (is the divorce final) and your new girlfriend who you met in May is moving in with in August, I'd say this went really fast.

Not that you should turn back, but its sounds like you skipped the whole divorce recovery process and didn't take a time to work through the transition of leaving a reasonably long relationship.  

Maybe you should do that now. Sign up for a divorce recovery program (a local church will off this) and work through it. You could post here, on this board, to work through it too.


Of course they do.  But anytime we are in a difficult relationship for an extended time, we are wounded and we develop band habits and thought patterns - and we have enmeshment to untangle and unwind. For me it took 4 years and two short relationships to get my self back into shape.

Thanks Skip,

Well to sum up, wife of 10 years, "fell asleep" on the couch most nights since year 5, but then started spending most of her nights staying at her office at year 8 (not uncommon for her line of business when getting it off the ground). Still interacted as a married couple. Her kids lived with me so she spent a couple days a week at the house to see them. Yes, her kids chose to stay with me. She did laundry there, everything was like she still lived there full time. I kind of thought she did.
Divorced filed without warning by her last October. It devastated me. Final in Feb. This year. She came around January and moved the rest of her stuff out. Lawyer ed up, initiated no contact which was the best thing ever.

I started dating last October, Gave up December. Started again. January gave up in March. Current girlfriend found me through a mutual friend. She wouldn't give up on me. Dating was actually suggested by my therapist very early on to get me out, help me start eating again, meeting people and in turn she hoped it would show me that I will be okay, that I will find friends again and be happy again. Ex had already moved on, and I hadn't had an intimate relationship in years so she convinced me to go for it.

Did Therapy from October to January.
Did anti depressants from Nov to Feb. This year.
That should be a pretty accurate background anyway.

I actually have been doing divorce support group through the church I am going to. Have been since December. I would recommend that to anyone. It helps to have friends that don't condemn you and I have no plans to stop attending and participating.

Was really doing well from March till just a week or so ago. That is what I don't understand. New house, new life, new everything. I was on top of the world, but then here comes paranoia. It kind of came out of no where. I have had a hard time shaking it.

I don't think about my ex. much at all. But what she did to me left an impression for sure apparently.
Which I don't think is all bad, because we learn from our mistakes right? We take that knowledge and move on.

You step in a pot hole, fall down, scrape your knee, chip a tooth, pride gets hurt. After that you watch for potholes right? Then you walk around them forever forth.

I am looking for a pothole. I don't see a pothole, But my mind apparently believes there is one somewhere.

So looking for ideas on how to deal with that. I haven't been on the board for a while and I am sure I will be looking around for answers on my own as well. With everything I have learned from this board, logic says I am currently in a healthy relationship. My heart says I am in a healthy relationship. My mind cannot accept it all of the sudden.

Is this a phase that will pass? Or is it something that is about to come bubbling up and destroy everything I have been working so hard on?
Maybe it is brought on by the kids, me taking on her kids. I guess that is not all that much different than what the ex did to me. But I had a choice this time and I didn't last time. This time I wanted this.

Okay this is just me rambling now.

 

I see red flags - for both of you... .

You: ":)ivorced filed without warning by her last October. It devastated me."
You: "I started dating last October"

Are we talking the same year? If you are devastated by a divorce, that's not a time to start dating! There is a definite time period to grieve and recover - and I'm told even 6months is not enough.

Then you say: "We are in the process of moving in together... .time to get her kids enrolled since she didn't live here... .
So I have her kids living with me, I take them to school everyday, I feed them, I clothe them. I am raising them as my own. She will not move here for 6 more weeks because of work."

So she's not living with you, and you are raising her kids for her. Perhaps she's authentic, or perhaps she's got free housing and free child care for her kids while she's living another life on her own... .? Will she move in with you in 6 weeks? Or will there be another reason she doesn't?

I hope for the best for you - but these things don't seem good... .
(I also can't offer any advice yet on what you should do... .)

My point?
Are you moving to quickly? It sounds like the perfect rebound relationship I would want (except for the children).
Be careful.

Idk, imho, it is not about "finding the right person or relationship."
Moving on after a r/s is about finding oneself, becoming a "new person."  Looking into the reasons one landed in the dynamic they landed in, examining their contributions to the dysfunctional dance and learning and growing from there.

Imo, that usually takes over a good solid year worth of ongoing introspection and growth.

Way I see it is if this relationship is a solid one, it should be able to withstand waiting another full year before moving in.  

Why not?

Kids can withstand continuing school in their old distrct way better than having a step dad then losing one.  (To me, the "need" to move in cause of kids schooling is a weak reason.  The couple needs a good foundation of having lived through many types of experiences that crop up in all seasons of a year.  Also, I do not see someone giving up friends as a sign of devotion, but imo, are red flags to tell me to slow the heck down)

Why not wait a year?  

... .

Also, you keep saying you feel you don't know why she wants to be with you.
I kindly suggest, you do some work on your self esteem, self love, feelings of worthiness BEFORE making yourself a psuedo husband/stepdad to someone elses kids.  Imo, this is necessary foundational work to entering any relationship ready for a mature dynamic where both persons feel whole and are not setting themselves up to seek emotional regulation/esteem from being with the other person.

Curious also what your divorce group thinks of gal u met same month of divorce?
(If we are getting timeline correct that is... .otherwise, pls disregard)

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate everyone's input. I would have to agree with everything you guys are saying.

I can sit here and make excuses about why things are happening so fast, but then I shouldn't have to right? That would be a red flag in itself.

This is where the divorce group is not helpful, they see a situation and they are supportive. They see me happy and they support it. They don't have the training or knowledge to stop and say, wait this isn't right.
They are all aware of everything going on and they are wishing me the best.

What they know and you don't maybe is that for the last 5 years of my marriage we were not a couple. We were not even room mates. To best describe it, I would have divorced her but I felt like I was abandoning a retarded child and I couldn't live with myself if I did that. I often described it as raising 5 kids instead of 4.
I had told myself that this was the life I had chosen so I needed to suck it up and deal with it.

I have often said, look at what they make you give. (referring to a BPD partner) When you give all of you, everyday. Your heart and soul.  When you give everything and then you are told that you were never even close to good enough. That is devastating. Words are bad enough but divorce was action that cannot be disputed and makes you believe all those words were true.
Investing everything, emotionally and financially and have it ripped from you. That is devastating.
I thought I was happy enough.

When she lawyer ed up and went no contact it was the best thing ever. I was back in control. No more manipulating, controlling, abusive words from her. No more guilt. It was like a get out of jail free card. Everyday without a word from her my life was exponentially better. Knowing her as well as I did I was was able to manipulate and control the divorce. I didn't take advantage or abuse her guilt issues but I was able to walk away with cash in hand and so was she. That is a lot more than most people.
Having dated through that process was actually a good thing, helping build my confidence and self esteem I did not just roll over and let her have everything which is what my depression was telling me to do in the begging of all of this.
If she had not initiated no contact I would still be her puppet. I believe that.

I have no problem with who I am and I know who I want to be. Which is me, because I am awesome.

I am a good dad, taking care of kids, well this is probably the best thing for them. She is paying me so she is not free loading.
We had talked about her getting an apartment when she gets here instead and maybe we should do that, but either way she is coming and the kids could not stay in the apartment alone anyway. Up until a month ago the kids were going to stay with their grandma for this school year. Then they decided they didn't want to. Their push for this year is because one is starting middle school and one is starting high school. So two of them are new kids just like everyone else and that makes it a lot easier on them. I agree fully now is the best time for them.

I love kids, they all deserve our best, I had my chance to save the world and I didn't so maybe one of them will. Kids should be loved, supported and encouraged as well as being safe and secure. 

When I say she gave up her friends, I mean more like she put me first in her life. She chases off the guys that were hitting on her. She will change plans to be with me if her girl friends are wanting time.

There was one girl before her I actually thought I loved. Pretty sure I am past the rebound phase.


I really do appreciate you guys dissecting everything. That is exactly what my mind has been going through, like I missed something and I don't know what it is yet.

Let's approach this a different way.
She is everything I ever dreamed of. Being honest with myself, I have probably said that before. The person I dreamed of and imagined spending my life with when I was a teenager, this is her.  So do I fear it is too good to be true?
Now that the kids are here and we are counting down until she is, is it too real? What am I afraid of?
I didn't plan on this and neither did she. She is 16 years younger than me, that bothers me but doesn't seem to bother her at all. I told her early on she is too young and pretty and we would never work, but she said she loves me and can't walk away.
In my heart I know I love her and I cannot change that even though I have tried.
I think I do fear that if I don't grab her now someone else will as I go through all of this with you guys and it is not that I don't think I can't do better, but I don't think there is better.
The lack of love bombing made me examine the relationship very closely a while back. Granted we don't have the long term compatibility experience yet, we are certainly past infatuation. We are in the stability phase already. We have both had two long marriages and kids so we settled in pretty easily.

Maybe because I was told before I had made someone happy and found it all to be a lie, That total and complete betrayal, maybe this is what I fear this time? With everything my ex did I cannot blame that on the personality disorder and let it go. That closure we never get  I guess.
and that is exactly why I am here. I can't let go and trust it is true.
If you say I need more time to get over that feeling before moving forward, then I say, if I get over that feeling did I learn anything from it?
If I don't get over it, then how can I ever give someone else the best of me?

The past is the past, sure, but it makes us who we are, and we cannot always pick and choose what haunts us at night.
 

 

I think it would be helpful to know what her past relationship was like. I know for me, I married someone who was in my league, but after 18 years of being married to someone with BPD, if I ever had a second chance, looks would not be my first priority at all, and I'd probably look for someone who was good with my kids and perhaps a little older and more mature. So if she married a good looking, selfish guy the first time, she's probably learned her lesson too.

I suspect you are going to get some good input to come on this thread as you did a fine job expressing where you are coming from.

I do think that it does matter that you appear to have gone through a bit of grieving and detaching during your marriage, prior to your finalized divorce.

Having said that, just gonna say my perosnal belief, does not have to be anyone else's:  I happen to be a firm believer of doing the work of detaching and grieving while single.

I understand, not everyone would agree on that, hence imo, why it is nice to speak on such a forum as this.

However, I strongly feel that there is imperitive work one is best to do following such an intense life changing relationship as one with a pwAnyPD, and much of it is best done while completely unattached and single in every sense of the word.

I do not think it is impossible to attain a huge degree of emotional growth, I just personally feel there is much to be said of shedding many traits that drew us to this disordered dynamic thta are best addressed while single.  (Self soothing abilities, shedding white knight syndromes or martyr complexes, learning to be ok with ourself if not in a helper role, learning to be ok with ourself when not "a couple" and attending events as a solo identity, exploring self care, recreational stuff single, etc and so on and so on.)

There was a sense of utter unimaginable aloneness and tear at the core fabric of my  very being when I found myself alone in my new apartment with no hope of following the course of attaining the family I thought I had attained with my ex.  

I feel I needed to experience this loss to it's fullest.
Had I just replaced my loss of hope with a newfound hope, I could have never gained so much of the self resources and strength that I have.

I happen to believe that our attachment to the pwBPD is not just attachment to them, but us reenacting early childhood unmet attachment desires.

There is no way to address this core wound if we simply soothe our "self worth/self esteem" via finding another person to project our hope and dreams onto.  After all... .kinda defeats the "self" in self esteem.

Not meaning to sound negative or anything, just sharing my one perspective... .surely you will get others, maybe different also.

If I had it to do over again... .
I would seriously ask myself... .
Why NOT wait a year?
And I would listen good to my answer.
Because chances are it is not in a "wisemind" area of thinking.
Chances are that is is way more emotionally, impulsively driven, soothing self driven of "wants" (right brained driven) vs anything very Logical/objective (left brain driven)

First,  it sounds like this new woman is great,  and I don't get the sense that you are embellishing it.  Congratulations, she sounds great :)



Do you really believe this,  I mean,  at your core?

If you were sitting on a mountain top late a night, alone and far from city lights,  gazing at the sky full of stars,  thinking about all that transpired on your previous life,  do you really believe this? Apart from what you wrote,  everything else you wrote sounds like you feel like you aren't deserving of love.


Maybe it isn't the job of one person to make someone else happy.  This is a need fulfilment trap many of us tend to fall into.

Just throwing in my two cents, from the perspective of a single woman who has had many friendships ruined because the other person kept choosing the relationship over the friendship, instead of balancing both.  Perhaps it is healthy for her to put distance between herself and her male friends, but based on what you said, and maybe I'm reading it in the wrong way, it sounds like she is frequently choosing time with you over time with female friends.  To me, that's not healthy.  Of all the married couples I know, the ones who have the strongest, happiest relationships are the ones who spend time with friends and other family, often without their spouse being there.  One of my friends teaches yoga on the side and has great friendships with a lot of the women she's met through yoga.  They go away together, sometimes for a day, sometimes for a weekend. 

Again, just speaking from my own experience, I wouldn't feel comfortable if someone I was dating kept ditching friends to be with me, probably because I've had this happen, specifically with my BPD friend.  We would make plans, and she would cancel on me at the last minute.  I later found out that it was because she was spending the weekend with her boyfriend instead.  If she wanted to do that, fine, but then don't make plans with me.  I also had a non-BPD friend in college who would do this to me all the time, and it hurts a lot. 

We support you too. Fast or not, you have made a pretty significant commitment to this family unit and we want to help you navigate that.

Again I really appreciate conversing on this board, you guys are intelligent, thoughtful, considerate and compassionate. So thank you.
And I don't mean to leave anyone out when responding to questions, but as you guys know what we live and try to portray here is so different because we cannot portray everything clearly or decide what details will always be helpful and I tend to ramble anyway.


Do I completely believe I am awesome, Yes I do. I know any woman would be lucky to have me.  But you have to understand how hard that is for me to say. Until therapy I would have never said that out loud. But we have to be honest in order to make progress and I have gone back to not saying it. So that is definitely not the problem.
No I don't think I am better than anyone else and I have only ever said to anyone once and that was telling my ex that she was making a mistake.
My moral compass is guided by the bible for as long as I can remember. It has greatly influenced my choices in life. Am I awesome, Yes, and so is every person reading this forum. It also says be humble and modest, so do I need to tell people how awesome I am? Never. Actions are enough, besides what I do, I do for the lord and I look to him for the reward. I do my best to be the husband and father I am supposed to be. Even when nobody is watching.
If a fork falls on the floor do you use it anyway? Even if nobody saw it? God Saw it, so in the sink it goes. I take the worst or smallest portion, does anyone notice? God is the only one but that is all that matters to me. I know I gave the best to everyone else. I am second. 
God made us exactly the way we are and he doesn't make mistakes. Not trying to turn this into a religious discussion but I stayed with my BPD ex for 10 years and didn't give up because of the promise I made to her before God. For years I prayed that God would either change her or change me in order to improve the relationship.
When she divorced me, it didn't seem like it at the time, but it was actually an answer to my prayers. Not the one I was hoping for, looking for, or expected but it is the answer God gave me and I had no control over it. I also have no guilt over it either. Could probably not have turned out any better.


I understand what you are saying completely, so I agree completely, the difference is we are 3 hours apart, so If I get a chance to go up on an unexpected day or night she will make time for me.
She still does things with her friends and so far they seem to be understanding about why she cancels.
If we were together day and night like normal couples I then think cancelling would be weird.

As far as working on myself through detaching while single steps. Well yeah I need to do that. Working on ourselves should be something we never stop doing.

I would agree with everyone who says it is too soon. Logic says I need more time.
But I offer you this, when is love logical? Can we control where our hearts go? Where is the guide for that one?
Can you say I will not love because I am not ready yet?
Then where is the checklist to complete to let me know If I am ready?
We can say we do not want a relationship because we are not ready, but if there is truly love there, then would it matter?
And this is part of my problem, maybe I see love differently, love is unconditional. If you truly love someone you love them for their good and their bad. You are there to help them grow, you are there to make them a better person as they are that to you in return.
My litmus test is, Lock her in the trunk for 2 hours, if she is happy to see you when you open the trunk that is unconditional love.
Okay just kidding. But my dog would be happy to see me.

I have sat on this couch I am writing you from, Happy, content, looking and planning MY future. Then this desire to spend more time with one certain person started creeping in and growing. My joy and happiness increases from talking to her or even thinking about her. She makes me a better person.

When I am sitting beside her I have no fear, no thoughts of failure, but when I am alone they creep in and nag me.
My thoughts are not of wanting more time alone, or away from them. Just the opposite. I want more of all of them.
But being apart I start to have doubts. I spend time over analyzing, trying to find fault that just isn't there.
I am starting to believe these are just the scares of a BPD betrayal and they will always be there even if I waited another 10 years and will fight it until someone doesn't betray me.

She is aware of all of this and we talk about it all the time. She has been very supportive and understanding. She has always done her best to squash those doubts, but come on she is going to get sick of it at some point. Everyone would.
This is not much unlike what she has gone through has caused her reservations. It was brought up earlier in the thread about what her life experiences where like.
Her first husband was abusive she thought she would be dead by now if he hadn't been killed in a motorcycle crash. Her second husband became abusive after getting into drugs and now is in Jail for a very long time.
So she fears I will become abusive. Which she doesn't bring up often but I call her out on it when I catch it. LOL
I know she is drawn to me because I have never been in trouble, I have never done drugs. Never hit a woman. My own sons have told her I never get mad, she asked all of them after the first one said that. My kids all told her what a wonderful parent I am. I am secure and stable and safe. I am everything she hasn't ever had.
But I also don't look anything like the guys she dated. Plus I am older, I don't have an exciting career, I don't bar hop or party, I am not social butterfly. She doesn't have a history of giving up, even in an abusive situation so maybe that is my fear, that I am a dimly lit star at this point in her life and I will soon be out shown after she heals more.   (Her last long relationship was about 4 years ago, I have been the longest since)
Or does she really want to build a life with me?
Or will she stick to her word only to be miserable with me for the rest of her life? Is that my fear? That I will somehow hold her back?
That isn't for me to decide is it. But I am older, shouldn't I know better? (laugh that was funny)

She says all the right things, she does all the right things. Why do I keep looking for fault?
My fear of her growing tired of hearing about my fears, or the fear that it will somehow tarnish her opinion of me is why I am here looking for a cause and steps to a solution.
I guess the cause is simple, it is the BPD betrayal. The solution is not so simple. Even with all of the healing and self help. I don't think a feeling so deeply rooted can go away.
So maybe my only chance is to hold on and let the happiness I have with her overflow from me until I have no room for the doubts or the scares left from the past.
Can this all be just a side effect from a long distance relationship?

Yes. I feel the same. Way out of my league. But I have had this conversation with her. I'm sure we have some preexisting or post traumatic self esteem issues. Intelectually speaking in sure if you write done all the positive things she's in you it's a no brainer what she sees in you. But like you, emotionally I feel like I am not up to level. I feel we both should just enjoy being in the much healthier relationships we are in now.

I think there's a middle way here  :)

You can love this woman and prepare for a life with her. Meanwhile, you can live separately and let things grow slowly. I agree that it's much easier to work through stuff (like the doubts bugging you... .) when you're single. I also understand sometimes you meet a person and things just feel right.

I am in a loving relationship with a man (my current SO) who dated me too soon.

SO separated from his BPDx in June 5 years ago and we went on our first date the following December, not a lot of time to heal. Like you, he was in a loveless marriage living nearly separately for many years. I had been single for 2 years with a lot of therapy before and after the divorce from my BPDx.

Advice and support from friends here was to slow my roll and I'm glad I did.

It make our relationship better.

We slow dated for 3 years. We both ended up renting near each other. It made a ton of sense to move in together financially and I'm grateful we did not cave to that pressure.

Having three years of dating without living together gave us something priceless. Without this work, I don't think we would've lasted our first year living together. Those first three years made it possible to slowly reveal ourselves and our vulnerability through actions. Having the choice to return to the relationship when it wasn't imposed on us (by lease or mortgage) make us less emotionally reactive, so we could work focus on things at the right scale, if that makes sense. And not get drowned in double tsunamis where both of us were overwhelmed and triggered by unresolved griefs.

Chances are, both of you have a ton of work to do in this area. People don't end up in abusive relationships and stay without missing some important relationship skills. Just the fact you are feeling plagued with doubts is a sign there is work to do. You -- not other people -- are trying to get your own attention. It may be that she is wonderful and you two will end up together. But some part of you knows that this is moving too quickly and is trying desperately to wave you down.

You don't have to end the relationship. You are moving very quickly, and I think you know that.

It's probably a good idea to take a step back and see what comes up. Nothing like a good boundary reset to see what the relationship is made of, and learn some things about yourself and her.

 :)

She is going to get an apartment for now and we will just see how it goes as nobody can predict the future.

I sure do appreciate everyone's input. I do worry I will lose her but then it wasn't meant to be I guess.

Once accepting that, I see that I have already started putting up walls to protect myself, expecting failure.
I am pretty confident it will drive her away as she has already said I am colder and more distant. 

We have a big weekend planned. we will see how it goes.

 

Relationships do not respond well to backing off... .and this was a backing off decision. You can't avoid that. She probably doesn't understand. Almost nothing you could say in the moment will help.

A lot has to do with how you respond going forward.


My advice - don't JADE. This will dig the hole and make matters worse.

Instead, give her a new "going forward" plans / ideas and work out a new plan together. You can say write off the change of plans to you the relationship, not the circumstances determine a major move live living together.  As far as a new love plan, let her know that you want a long term relationship with her and talk about your (both) plans and timing for the next step.  Make it fun. Romantic.

You may want to test some ideas here.

Moderation I don't think I have a grasp on yet.

Coming from a relationship that started out with love bombing, then to this is a totally different scenario probably feeds my fears she will betray me as well.

But when it comes to me, I believe if we are committed to a person we are all in. To me there is no in between. I think we deserve that in return, but we cannot control others we can only control ourselves.

I believe she deserves all of me. I don't know how to do just part of me. 

So setting new boundaries and new love plan I have no idea how to do.

Until we can sit down face to face this weekend and talk about it I don't know how to act.

Women expect men to lead, in general. When you made a unilateral decision to change the game plan, its really important to comeback with a meaningful new direction.

If you are looking for her to take the lead or to heap all of your internal insecurities as the driver, watch out.


You changed the co-habitation plan - you are clearly somewhere in between. Where is that? She needs to know or it will start to break things down. It could be a simple as, I want respect and do right by this relationships and make decisions that will strengthen us long term. Cancelling to cohab does this by _________. We can then focus on ___________


Do you have your values clearly in mind... .boundaries are about values... .without the values, they are just "my ways".
https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Hello,

Maybe I can help you by giving you a glimpse into possibly her perspective. I dated someone for 2 years and from the moment I met him, I fell in love with him and from the moment he met me, he kept saying "I feel like one day you will wake up and realize you're too good for me and that I'm out of your league."

I saw him as handsome and super successful. He saw himself as not so good looking, fat, and not as accomplished as he wanted to be.

I thought he was wealthy, in so many ways - not just material but in kindness, in his heart, in his generosity with me and everyone. When we were together and around other people who had bigger better "things" he always said to me "you can do so much better."

All I ever wanted was him - he was enough. But he never felt it. So he kept looking and looking for things. First few dates he asked me if I was bulimic bec I kept going to the bathroom. I drink a lot of water. Then he asked if I was ever "abused" and I told him I grew up in the most loving, nurturing family. I do not know what abuse is.

I didn't need his money, his house, his help with kids. I needed him and his love nothing else -- but he could never see it.

He never felt like he was worthy of the love I was giving him so one day, he started making accusations that I couldn't bear anymore. I couldn't bear his suspicions and I told him, no matter how much love and attention I give you, its never enough.

So he couldn't bear his perceived (bec it was only a perception) of inequality between us. He cut me off like I never existed in his life. We didn't live together but all my stuff was at his house and we were going to get married. He would say to me, I don't want to get married but with you - I want to announce to the world that I have landed the most beautiful woman.

Its been almost 8 months. I have not heard from him and he's never looked back. Cut me off like I was the plague.The only time I heard from him was a long string of drunken texts where he said "I wish your love was real. Why did it have to be fake. Why couldn't you love me the way I loved you." I could have turned blue assuring him and he would have never believed it.

So my advice to you is believe her when she tells you she loves you. Believe that you are lovable and that there are reasons - just being you - that she loves you. Have faith that you can find love and that she's not with you for any reason other than wanting to be loved by you.

Hope that helps.

This we decided upon mutually, We are paying for a 6 month lease which is more money than a 12, so you see the direction it is still headed.

We agreed on it because this was a long distance relationship. being thrown into a full house overnight with a "stranger" is a lot to handle. This will also give us a place to escape the kids for a little bit if needed and a place to store stuff until my house is finished.
So it was an easy conversation to go that way. I was able to get there without any indication that I might have reservations.

She also has anxiety issues, so having been with a BPD ex I do know how to lead and be strong for her.  How to read her and control the situation as so it doesn't send her into a panic.
But that is also why I am as honest as I can be with her but I am not brutally honest with her and why I dump all that stuff here.
I should ad that I will be brutally honest with her if my fears are real and I am a broken me and cannot be repaired. I am not trying to hide it or mislead her. Just don't want to cause a false alarm panic either.

I bought time basically.

Smart. And you have buy in. Double smart.


What do you mean by:
~brutally honest
~fears are real
~I am a broken me and cannot be repaired

I have said those exact same words to her,  really have to say thank you for this post, it was amazing to me. I can relate to the things he told you. I may see myself differently than he did, but nevertheless I don't feel good enough for her.
She is that special to me.

So I am looking for the help that he needed. I don't want to destroy this. I am doing this to myself.

There are things that pop up that stick with you. Things not always meant the way they came out. My GF said one night that she only got married the second time because she was pushed into it.
So I examine that over and over and try to figure out what she was really saying.
Is she saying that because she regrets the marriage?
Or is it because it excuses why she is with me when I am nothing like anyone else she ever dated?
Then it creates this fear in me that says will I ever really know she would marry me because it was her choice?
Or will I always question I pushed her into it.

Then that all circles back to, if I pushed her into it she will eventually end up leaving me or betraying me like everyone else so why bother trying at all?

I brought that topic up with her once and it got sidetracked, but not on purpose.

Last week the lottery was $750 million. I was driving back from seeing her and thought about what if I won it, would I tell her?
I think the answer should be yes, because that is a relationship, you don't keep secrets right?
But on the other hand I decided that no I would not. At least not for a while.
It's not about the money, I don't care about that.
I guess I want to know I married for love.  

I am self defeating. I don't understand why. As I spend more time pondering this subject it is not about my BPD ex, it is about my whole life and relationships my whole life.
My parents never abandoned me. So it is not some childhood trauma or fear, but more of a pattern of behavior that is out of my control.
How many times I have heard I love you and I will never leave you only to be sitting here alone, again.
 
Is it me? I don't think so because even my mentally ill ex said she was a fool for leaving me, but she still left, all of my exs have tried to come back. So I don't think it is me.

Is this a wound time will heal?  
 

When I read back over that quick, to me it sounded like I was not being honest about my feelings and doubts with my GF and that is not the case.
I do choose my words more carefully and sugar coat it some with her, and even it the topic looks like it is causing her stress I will back off.
Where as here I can say whatever and I know it will not hurt, undermine or cause seeds of doubt in our relationship.

I am not afraid to break this off if I think it is not the best for her or me. Until then I don't want her to know I was even considering it.

Like Kim posted if I keep going I fear paranoia will get the best of me and I will ruin it. That is not fair to my gf to drag her in if I am having feelings I cannot control about our outcome.

When your paranoia is triggered, what typically happens next (for you, for GF)?

Are there any patterns you can identify when you start to feel paranoid? Specific triggers?

You know that is a very good point, I should be journaling it. It is like Duh.

Very good question. Sitting here from what I can remember. The feeling or thoughts are started typically with depression. Very mild depression. I mean I am happy. But I am thinking it starts after seeing her, or maybe even a phone call with her. I am sad to let her go and sometimes, with the kids around all the time now I don't feel like I get the attention I deserve maybe?
Or I just won't let myself be happy?

Then I talk to her soon after and let her know how I am feeling, that she is really awesome and deserves better. Or she is out of my league.
Then she will overwhelmingly do her best to calm my fears. Saying things like she loves me and she is not going anywhere so I need to suck it up and get used to it,  Or that I need to stop that thinking right now because she is the lucky one.

Our time right now is often limited or not private so it is difficult to go into detail and have in depth conversations.

Now this is where I know I fail, when she reassures me and she does a great job, but she never goes into detail about why she is with me. Like that I am everything she dreamed of, or that I am handsome or things like that which I got during unhealthy love bombing and those are the things I am looking for.
She has said all those things before. Just not when I need to hear them most.

She tells me she appreciates me and wants to spend the rest of her life with me, but never really says why.

She is a different person, this is a healthy relationship by all standards, so the problem is in me.

I cannot tell her I need to hear this or that because then it feels like it was forced or she is just filling out boxes of a checklist which I had done for years in my past relationship. send emails, check, send cards, check, send flowers, check, send text, check, call, check. 

Not hearing those things, even though logic says it is not healthy only allows more doubt to slip in. So after she has done her best to calm my fears I get a little bump in thinking it will be ok, but then I dissect it use it to feed my paranoia and feel like I never should have said anything.

When we are together, even with kids there. I want her to run up, throw her arms around me and tell me she loves me. For no reason at all.
She is like that, but the kids tend to tackle her before she gets to me, so instead I feel slighted and I stand quietly back and be the ever watchful and protective Dad instead of fighting for my time.

You know, that might actually be where my thoughts and feelings start, probably that moment. I will have to watch for that next time.
I think I see her alone tomorrow night so that will help to see what happens.

Thanks guys,

Hi Hisaccount.

First, congratulations. It really looks like you are attracting something different with the possibility of healthier and more fulfilling. That's pretty awesome. 

I share my thoughts in the hopes that they help you both have that possibility for support and happiness. You are looking for reassurance about the doubts that you have in yourself. I get it. I do that too. Even though externally and through your faith, you know that you are awesome; inwardly, you doubt it, don't trust it, don't believe it. At least from your posts, that's what comes across. So you want the love bombing, the absolute assurance that she really sees how great you are. But you know, it will never answer those doubts, distrust and disbelief.

How can you answer them? What can you do for yourself to answer those questions? Because whatever that is, it will help you maybe build a life with this lovely person who has entered your life.

There was a reason that the love bombing was so darned irresistible when your xBPD provided that. You craved it. Truth is, if you ascribe to humility, that love bombing might be a real red flag, but it wasn't. Wasn't for me either (or at least wasn't enough of a red flag to overcome my starvation for it). But someone being steadily interested, steadily there, steadily meeting you right where you are - doesn't that sound like a more sustainable foundation for loving kindness?

My T recently suggested to me that there was a different way than pitching into a relationship, sharing all of me, letting all of my boundaries down ... .that possibly, a healthier way was to share a little and observe my friend's reaction. Is she seeing me, validating, reflecting, absorbed in herself, distracted? And slowly, ease into sharing more based upon those reactions, to let more of myself be revealed the more she chooses to reveal of herself, to learn how to support each other in being ourselves in stages. I think this is sort of what Livednlearned is talking about. Mind you, I haven't done any of that. But I was just trying to feel out how to even go about it, because I always thought loving someone was surrendering oneself unconditionally to the other. But, truthfully, that was just my dynamic in my FOO, it was the things that gave me the approval and love that I was seeking as a child from a parent. Did my parents overtly demand it of me? No. But the picture I formed in my mind was that that was what was required to be seen, valued and loved. And covertly, yes, my parents, as much as I love them, rewarded that approach over others.

I think there is space for you to grow into this relationship, for both of you. Share a little. Be willing to be honest and vulnerable about your need to be reassured. And then observe. Does she reflect, seek to assure to minimize your need, or just see you as you are without judgments - someone trying to work it out, with flaws and needs and vulnerabilities, maybe even encourage you to explore that pain. What would that be like?

There is a dialectical skill called opposite action -- where you do not invalidate your emotions, instead you transform them into something that brings about a healthy outcome.

I think you are working toward that  :)

From the example you gave us, it sounds like two emotion states.

The first one is fear she is rejecting you, or will reject you.
The second one seems like a combination of guilt (asking her for too much) and shame (for being needy).

I'm guessing at this. There may be more accuracy based on what's going on, in your words.

Let's say the first feeling, rejection, is something for you to own. Instead of pushing her away with paranoia, you might reach toward her (with confidence) and suggest a proactive way to spend time together.

"Maybe later this week we can spend some time together, just the two of us. It's so great having you and the kids here and I love the time we have. I could also feel myself getting a little distant and want to make sure I don't disappear on you. I do that when I feel ________."

Or something like that? In your words.

Nothing sexier than a guy who takes care of his own feelings and has a plan  :)

As for the guilt and shame, it seems like it's connected to neediness. Asking her to reassure you won't take care of your emotional needs (for reassurance) because the person responsible for tending to it is you. If you give her a heads up what is happening (I'm feeling ______) and give her something practical she can do (schedule time just the two of you, around her schedule as mom), you will reassure her that you got this.  :)

You guys are right, I thought I was solid. But all of you cannot be wrong. While reading and studying last night i realized I do have self doubt and insecurities that I am looking for others to control for me.

I spent so much time in self reflection, growth, recovery, therapy. It was all in my own little world, population one.
My world is now population two and that is a dynamic I haven't had to deal with for a long time. Even during my marriage, my ex had an opinion but I didn't let her get to me because of her condition. So during that time is when my world became population one. Apparently I have been living that way for years.
I was not controlling over overbearing but as I said before I mostly viewed her as another teenager or a retarded child and of course I loved and cared for her just like the other kids. Not like a spouse.
Now I have met someone that has an opinion that I actually care about and it has changed the dynamic and left me with doubts.

When I was planning my life alone I was in complete control. At the end of the day it was just me. Nobody could hurt me. That is no longer the case. She got in. I didn't plan for it. I didn't try. It just happened.
I didn't believe it was possible.

After all of the dating failures I didn't think there was anything left of me that could care for someone else.


I do miss the love bombing, even though it is not healthy. I still miss it.
Up until I started dating this gal I often said I wanted that part of the relationship. Who wouldn't. But you are correct, it is not sustainable or healthy.

This girl was around for a long time before we dated. She knows me pretty well, she was a friend while i dated others and while I was going through recovery.
So she knows what bothers me, she is trying. I don't give her enough credit.

She had me help her recover some online accounts. She changed the contact information a week later, but then sent me the updated contact information and passwords. (without me asking)
I am not going to snoop. I am not like that, It was that act that showed trust and she wants to share her life with me completely.  I needed that. I wanted that. Is that wrong? To feel trusted? To enjoy knowing she trusts me like that?
But then that is seeking external validation and that is wrong.

We are never going to start a relationship without baggage again and that sucks.

I am needy, She knows everything I went through and she is doing her best to understand as much as someone who hasn't been through it can.

Last night out of the blue she says she hopes I ask her to marry her someday because she wants to spend the rest of her life with me.
That is a pretty bold statement for someone if she really didn't want to be with me.

looks like I need to go back through some of the healing steps only now I have a different perspective when approaching it.

You guys are awesome.

This is highly individual, so take it fwiw, but a woman moving to my area long distance just for the r/s, who says she hopes you get married one day... .drops not only her mail friends but her female friends too. That feels uncomfortably fast for me. Especially LD, she has kids, you're not over the trauma of your r/s w/BP. These would all warning signals for me, not necessarily to cut things loose but definitely to take it slow.
My 2 cents.

Believe me my mind has been working every possible angle on it too.

But you have to put things into perspective. This is one thing I hated about my Therapist. If I defended something or tried to hard to rationalize it she would stop me.
But apparently I didn't explain well enough the first time is what I would tell her.

It is funny how many people mention her dropping her male friends. I posted on a forum of my industry peers, we see a lot of relationships fail due to the nature of the business. Spouses being gone a couple nights a week at least.

I guess I just don't see anything wrong with a woman dropping the guys she was dating or talking to about dating.
Is there something wrong with that? I mean when you enter an exclusive relationship. Do you really want the person you are dating hanging around, or talking to people she met for the purpose of dating?

This is not something I asked her to do. She did is out of respect, and I did the same for her. Stopped talking to all the girls I was talking to with the intention of dating.

As we share computers I saw one of the notes she sent off, it simply said Hey, I have a boyfriend, he is a great guy and it is not fair to you or him to keep conversing with you. So good luck.

Emotional or physical infidelity is not okay at any stage of a relationship. At least I will never accept that. If I have to share my gal, well then I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Yet she has male friends. I have met them. She has had them for 20 years. But she doesn't ever do anything with them and hasn't for years beyond the occasional FB message or happy birthday text.

For me I can rationalize everything that happened and why. But then that is why I am posting about it here. To see if my thinking is incorrect.

Funny note, well funny to me. I saw a picture of her in a bathing suit hanging off of a guy, drinking at the lake from a few years back. Did not look very appropriate. He is still one of her friends. She could tell I was not very thrilled that she was still hanging around him, so she took me over and introduced me to his husband. LOL

So is it still wrong for her to drop her male friends in the context I just laid out?
If so then I am just done. No amount of therapy can ever make me accept that I have to share my woman.

I didn't think that the first time you wrote it or now.

The biggest concern in this relationship is the speed at which you got involved in a serious relationship after your 10 year marriage. It would be more typical to go a couple of years before cohabitation with a new partner and children who you are raising as your own. You are showing the signs of stress that one would expect from someone who didn't take an extended break between relationships to recalibrate. You are second guessing whether you have the mental clarity to evaluate a new relationship. This is real stuff.

I think you accept this.

The harder question, is what do you do now? Blow up this relationship with paranoid thoughts? That's not good move, either.

Slowing it down was a good idea.  |iiii  Hopefully you can do it in a way that doesn't make her think you are getting cold feet.

Do you have much of a life outside of this relationship to help you recalibrate yourself? Raising two children can be all consuming. Having a life independent of the relationship is healthy.

I think it would be wrong to shift this into a suspicious examination of your partner. A lot of members are "paranoid" after these relationships because they did not get a good handle on what constitutes a healthy relationship following their "BPD" relationship. Many don't take the time to inventory what was pathology and what was just relationship stuff.

I'd focus on creating a healthy environment for yourself and developing interests outside the relationship as well as co-interests with your new partner and others.  I'd also spend time thinking about what a healthy relationship is and getting clear where your last relationship was broken.

Hi Hisaccount. This is the path I hope you take. I am totally rooting for you and your partner. You've both been through a lot. There's the possibility for establishing empathy and support for each other. But it will last if you build it to last. And the postmortem deep dive through your last relationship can help if you can do the work. Everyone of us has flaws, has stuff we wrestle with. Shining a light on that, knowing it, being willing to be uncomfortable in our skin is part of healing that can help us not eliminate those issues but recognize them and find a better vehicle for how they function in our day to day life.

Maybe you can let her know that you both want to be in a relationship with her but also do the work on yourself that you need to be a strong, healthy partner (and step parent). It may not even be a bad idea for you to find a couples counselor that you see together. Just my thoughts.

Wishing you the best of luck and success.

I never said you should share your woman with other men romantically.

There's a huge difference between ending romantic connections with other men and dropping all her platonic male and female friends including 20-year friendships. That's not healthy imo.

Here's the thing. It's four months in, if I read you right. That's very soon to be moving closer just bc of the r/s. It would be different if she had already decided to relocate to your area, but I didn't read that. Four months is also very soon for you to be taking on parenting duties with her kids or talking about marriage and proposals. (to dream? maybe :))

Four months is the fantasy stage of a r/s, it can certainly be sufficient to make us care for someone, feel a strong attraction, be ready for/begin intimacy, want to know more about him/her, and to become monogamous. But this point in a r/s, whether in the same area or LDR, is right at the precipice between the fantasy-mirroring period and the "getting to know the real person" period. People let their hair down from 4-6 months in to 1-2 years in, and depending on how astute both people are and the work they've done on themselves and their past r/s, it's in this period that both are able to assess where things might be going long term.

On top of that is that you haven't had time alone to unpack who YOU are following a 10-year marriage, and that takes time be it a troubled or healthy marriage. You may want to focus on some activities that will facilitate this process whether counseling, renewing old friendships, journaling, creative expression etc.

As said before, take what I say to whatever extent it is helpful to you, and if none if it is helpful it's yours to dismiss.

Be well and take care of yourself, you deserve all good things.

We're with you.  :)


Absolutely. We're all with you on this, too.

The challenge is to find a mature way to harvest the good out of this situation and, at the same time, to get on a healthier pathway.

We're all family here... .just kicking things around for Hisaccount... .offering our best... .we all have different ideas and experiences to pull from... .all valid.  |iiii

Thanks skip,
You have refocused it well.

Guys, I am not offended by anything you have to say, Rather I respect and appreciate all of it. I know you have my best interests in mind.

Didn't mean to sound snappy, when talking to someone or posting online the direction you expect or want something to go, well that never happens. LOL
That isn't the only thing that bothers me about details and context. That was just and easy one to explain.
When I posted I made the mistake and made assumptions on things like that, of course not everybody is in the same place I am so very easy to see why those things get picked up.

I kind of think this whole thread got derailed. It is someplace no where near where I started.

I do have an update. I got to see her last night. But of course the kids came along so we did not get to talk like we planned. But I was able to examine my feelings and the way different things made me feel.

Last night was different than the previous couple of visits. She clung onto me all night. Rather than me clinging onto her. I don't believe I ever gave her any indication that I needed that. So it was awesome that she did it of her free will.
Those actions validated me I guess? They said she wants to be with me.

Driving home I still felt some fear that I will lose her, but not by anything I do.

This is a marathon not a sprint.

The paranoia you feel may simply be that you trust actions more than words.

Which is smart  :)

You may get a surge of contentment from love-bombing words.

Yet, history tells you these words can mask opposite actions. "I love you" followed by bad actions that are hurtful, mean, or abusive.

That's why going slow soothes the nervous system. It allows you to compare and contrast the words with the actions, over and over until you aren't testing all the time.

What do you think about seeing a couples counselor, like talkingandsending suggested?

Going back to the self esteem, fear, insecurity, self hatred issue I have that I didn't think I have.

I was doing some reading and going over some material and I started to remember the problems I had going through it, also talked about this with my therapist and never got an answer that satisfied me. Maybe there isn't one because I am looking at it wrong.

At what point does confidence broach arrogance?
For an example confidence would say I could have any mate I wanted. But isn't that actually arrogance? It is certainly not realistic. To say that we are just lying to ourselves.
It always reminded me of the motivational tapes. "I am a tiger"  "I am invincible" "I am king of the jungle" Pfft, No I am not. LOL
So I say instead that any woman would be lucky to have me and I do believe that.

But see what I did there? I skirted the issue without ever digging in and comprehending what it was trying to teach me.

Yep, I cheated on my homework.   

Another thing that I ignored because I didn't take the time to comprehend it. I felt like all the rebuilding and growth I was supposed to do, it sounded like being with someone was like a grocery list.
Validation, happiness and joy should come from within me.
Kind of saying, when my life is complete without someone, then it is okay to add someone.

Really? If I am complete without someone, then why add someone?

Then talk about relationships and dating, finding someone who is a good match that makes our lives better, that makes us better.
Sounds like a shopping list doesn't it?

I don't want that. I want head over heals in love. I want to have feelings for a woman I cannot control, I want her in my every thought, I don't want to be able to keep my hands off her, I want to feel like I can never do enough for her because she is that special to me,  I want to feel like I will die without her.

If that ever happens, it would never be on recovery timeline.

And that is what I am saying, I think I found that and I want to grab on with both hands and not let go, but I am scared.

I love that Idea and already sent it off to the GF. It would just have to wait until she gets moved here in a few weeks.

 red-flag  (I rarely throw a red flag   )

The fact that you see these two things as mutually exclusive, or polar opposites, is a sign of not working through the baggage of last relationship. I don't say this as criticism, I say this as a friend and as something to deal with for going forward. Distorted thinking from our prior relationship does not serve us well going forward. There is time to fix these things, but its a little harder while in a relationship.

The skills we learn on the Improving Board (e.g., listening instead of reacting, or not JADEing, etc.) are skills needed for all relationships.

The explosion of infatuation is great... .but even a blind man can navigate the honeymoon stage of love without problems. When the infatuation smoke clears away and the relationship moves into phase II where partners struggle with identity, independence, and control issues, you will need the temperament and relationship tools to survive, and at the same time, plant a healthy relationship and move to stage III. How you respond to adversity - and there will be adversity - is huge.

Think of this like the three little pigs. Do you want  your RS built out of straw (hey it burns bright but then ... .?), straw (you can make a nice mattress when it blows down) or brick (takes time and work but it lasts)?

I have been really sick and not felt like updating.

I do appreciate all the insight, it is valuable knowledge that cannot be gotten in another single place that I am aware of.
You are all correct these things we learn are life skills that are good tools to have in all walks of life.

I think I am simply overreacting to paranoia and there really isn't some underlying issues that is going to pop up.
Had a really good conversation with my oldest son last weekend who is 23, married with 2 step kids. Of course with the bluntness only someone that close to you can say he told me I was being stupid. That there is nothing wrong with me and my fears are just left over damage from the evil soul sucking vampire.
He reminded me that we cannot control someone else. If she wants to run off, then she will run off. The question really is if she is worth the risk.

Control is one of the issues I face, I have no control. I don't fully understand this woman. Dealing with a personality disorder I had a measurable amount of control. I could manipulate and make things happen. I don't have that insight or predictability anymore.  That scares me a little.

Then talking with the GF this weekend and since. She has no reservations at all. This is what she wants and is willing to work together for happy future. She understands the baggage I have and she has some of her own. That is just part of life at our age.

I haven't had those same feelings of paranoia or depression that I had when I first posted this so I will keep journaling and we will see if they pop up again and why.

I'm late to this, but this worries me:

"She is respectful, she dumped all of her guy friends and made it very clear she has a boyfriend that she is happy with. She spends no time with her girl friends."

Why are these good things, that she's rejecting all her friends to be with you? Are you paranoid about her having male friends? Usually it's the BPD people that can't stand it if we have a friend of the opposite sex. I can see her having less contact with male friends and not getting to see her female friends as much, but in a healthy relationship you encourage people to be with their friends and relatives, rather than try to alienate them. It's not that you are doing this - maybe she's love-bombing you and has issues?

Why don't you encourage her to see her friends (at least female friends) once in a  while and see what she says?

Yes, in a great relationship, you don't talk to your friends as much. But dumping is a concern.

From what I can see, this was responded to here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314032.msg12896942#msg12896942

Another red flag is giving up all of her friends. Healthy people in healthy relationships should never give up friends of the same sexual orientation or opposite either one. Unhealthy people, red flag, BPD people have problems with your friends and want to isolate you. I have missed my friends so much during my marriage.  If I ever found myself wanting to date again a huge factor of whether or not a person could be trusted would be if they weren't threatened by my other relationships,  and had their own other healthy relationships. You can't put the whole world in one person because then that one person has to remain your whole world and you may find out she isn't atlas after all. Also I would question a mother's willingness to move her in with someone she has never lived with herself.  Not to insult her parrenting choices but I am a mother and it seems like poor judgment.

*mod*

Discussion regarding treatment and car for the oldest daughter has been transferred here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315064.

This is a better place to discuss what the requirements to parent a child over the net 10+ years.

In reading your thoughts on all of this, I get the feeling that you are looking at this 4 part family unit as having a defective member who will not be tolerated as is. Unless the matter is corrected, either the defective child or the mother and all the children will need to go.

I don't think this thought process is at all realistic.

If you are taking on all four to raise as your own, one of the children is a special needs child and will require years of special needs care both in the home and possible with stays in a mental facility.  This is not going to fix with a court order (if that is even a practical option) or 30 days hospital stay or a six month, $100,000+ residential treatment center program. These things can be invaluable tools, but the majority of the habitation over the next 10 years will be in your home and it will strain the other family members and your relationship.

It can be done. Twice in my life I've mentored teens. Its rewarding, its challenging, its expensive, and it is trying. I was in the emergency room with one, just a few months ago, rushing 60 miles in the middle of the night to get her unconscious body into a class 1 trauma center.

Being a father if four is a commitment. Being a father of four with a special needs child, in a much bigger commitment.

You're a good Christian man. Are you ready for this type of life mission.

I rarely make strong statements like this, but I want to be sure you have heard this from someone before making any commitments.  It is legally very risky to have this young lady in your home after this threat.  Your door locks won't protect you against a false accusation. And if there is a false accusation, and CPS gets involved, resolving it will tear your relationship apart. CPS will also question her parking her children alone and unsupervised with a man that she has only known for 100-130 days.



This is a big change of plans. This is a high risk situation in terms of making this relationship work. I think any counselor would tell you that it is much smarter for her to move into her own home in your area, get everyone settled, for you to build relationships with the children before consolidating households.

I suspect that if you all move in together in two weeks, there will be insurmountable pressures on your new relationship in the upcoming year that will break it.

Clearly you know this situation better than I. And whatever decision you make, we will support you as a community and help you make the best of it.

I just want to say that, I have no idea what I am doing. LOL
This is an emerging situation and I came running here immediately because I was having flash backs.

Yes the current plan is for her to move into her apartment and set it up as such. Her getting an apartment is actually something we decided to do here in this thread. She hopes she can stay with me, but depending on how the 15 year old acts she says they, her and all the kids will retreat and move to the apartment because it is not fair that I be treated the way she is treating me, blah, blah, blah.
The apartment is just a couple blocks away. The kids can walk to my house if they need a safe place.

Honestly, I am just winging it here. Based on my experience she has all the traits of a personality disorder of some type. She might just be acting out and will straighten up when mom gets here.
That of course I doubt because she is abusive towards mom but who knows.
 
I agree, having her in the home is extremely scary, but this is where I can only have faith and do the best I can to protect myself. But they have no other choice right now. Nobody else will take them. They have all refused if the 15 year old is coming along.
If family services gets involved, well then that is part of God's plan and there is nothing I can do.

Bottom line is, the kid needs help. If mom is committed to getting her help then I will support it best I can. Otherwise I refuse to be part of the train wreck ahead. 
Her entire family except for mom has her blocked and refuse to talk to her right now because of her rage a weekend ago. This to them is a normal process.
I am the first to stop and say hey, I think she has a condition.

Mom has said she, the 15 year old, has ruined all of her relationships in the past. I knew that going into all of this. We talk about us, but right now it is mostly about the kids.

Like I said before, I think this is why God put them in my path. Relationship or not I will help if I can.  I think I was meant to.

Hisaccount, I have a similar dynamic in my new family. I divorced my son's father (uBPD/bipolar) and am now in a relationship with a great guy who has a bipolar/uBPD daughter.

This:



... .is not realistic. If you date the mom, her daughter will be a huge part of your life. Even living separately. I don't know if you are saying this out of frustration and fatigue, or if this is something you truly believe? You two love each other. Her emotions will affect you and vice versa, and D15 will be part of that.
 

This probably won't change.

 

Your bottom line is also messier than you may realize. If she is a loving mom she will be more than committed to helping her daughter. The problem is that a proper diagnosis can take a long time, the skills are not intuitive, treatment can be expensive and confusing, and effective parenting for a mentally ill teen involves trial and error, over and over. Mom probably has to learn assertive boundaries, and that can feel like a complete overhaul of personality that in practice will test her moment to moment while she's juggling two other kids, running a home, and holding down her job.

In a blended family like this, a kiss of death is to have ultimatums, especially of the "it's either her or me" kind.

There is a way through this if you have the will and patience. It's not easy. First task is to make a list of important boundaries and get clear with them. If you're like most people, you'll struggle in this area.

Second task is to look at the biggest risks and take steps to protect yourself.

I would start with how things work if D15 makes a false allegation so you aren't unprepared. She has already figured out what kind of power she has if needed, and thankfully she tipped you off in advance. Get a friendly consult with an attorney -- for a few hundred dollars you can find out how things work where you live in case this escalates. It's like putting on a helmet when you ride your bike, the risk is slim but the consequences could be disastrous and looking back you'll wonder why you waited for the train to hit when you saw it coming miles away.

Which isn't to say back all the way out. It just means you take these signs seriously and add this info to your tool kit.

I would also recommend you have a therapist throughout this, if you can. Having a BPD ex does not count as expertise, as I learned the hard way 

Thank you for your input and support.

I am in no way thinking I am an expert or in anyway equipped to deal with this.

The two week comment is more about fatigue. When mom gets here full time, I will be able to walk away if I have to and recover and then go back and give it another try. I don't give up.
Being all alone when she is raging I cannot leave her alone. I simply have to take the verbal abuse. If I walk away she will run off or harm herself or her sisters or tear up the house.
So right now I am forced to push down my own feelings of hurt and work with her on calming her down and getting her back on the rails all by myself.
Which is very difficult because of course she doesn't trust anything I say or do.
The thing I am not good at is calming the D15 down to a place where she is reasonable. I have been reading and learning what I can about that but without her trust I may not be able to.

I know that these kids will always be a huge part of the relationship and I am prepared for that, but I am not prepared to deal with it alone.
I did it alone in my last relationship as many of us have and nobody should ever have to do that.

There has not been any kind of talk about hard choices or ultimatums. I know better. Like choose her or me. The only thing I have said is I refuse to be treated like that and if mom is going to make excuses for her and let it happen without getting her help then I am out.
Maybe I am wrong but I feel like that is a pretty okay boundary.

I am very encouraged about how mom has been handling the relationship and the kids. We had a pretty good foundation of trust and understanding before the kids ever came into the picture.

There are a lot of things I have learned to help me through this without making things worse. Right now mom and I have been doing a great job supporting each other.
I will call mom and say look they are really wearing on me today. Not sure I can do this. Then we will talk it out and she has always supported me helped me. I have done the same in return. She calls me and says she wants to drive off a bridge (jokingly) so I sit down and do my best to support her.
That has been working great for us. I have never in my life had someone there for me like she has been. I hope she is feeling the same thing.

When D15 got violent and I had to separate the kids she told me how mad mom was going to be at me when she finds out what I did to her, that I even touched her. (I had heard horror stories of previous boyfriends that got in the middle)
I grabbed her wrists, pinned her body up against the wall with my shoulder and peeled her hands off of D14. Then told D14 to go to her room, lock the door. When I heard the door close I released D15.
Mom called me after D15 called her. We never talked about that actually, she simply asked me if I was okay and if the kids had calmed down yet and if D14 was okay. 

That right there says a lot to me. That our foundation is strong for her to not even question that I did something wrong or out of line.

We have the same sense of humor, we joke about the kids secretly, not to be mean, but to be funny. It is part of the connection we have. But we have that understanding that we can laugh about things and not mean it. Nice change from a BPD that I could never joke with.

As far as protecting myself from accusations I have been doing a bunch of PR work. Parents, Grandparents love me. Not sure why but every relationship ever I was always very much loved. So I have been going around keeping everyone informed of D15 and what is going on. Told everyone of her threats. Collecting all of the information I can.
It is all I can do.  Lawyer was not much help, he told me to remove myself from the situation.

Mom and I have been discussing boundaries.  We are working on them together. Mom is not a good enforcer and caves. I do not. (so far)
That is the weakest part of our relationship right now. So far she has not pushed it when I tell her no, this is a boundary or consequence we agreed on. This is a punishment we agreed on. We need to see it through or the kids will run all over us forever.
That is part of what she is learning. I went through it. I let my boundaries be crossed. I caved. I saw what it did to me and my family.  Doing my best to not let that happen again.

D15 had therapy yesterday. Before hand I spoke with therapist. I tried not to get involved but the more red flags I see I had to share my observations and simply asked the therapist to use them as conversation starters as D15 is most likely sitting there quiet the whole hour.
I gave the complete history as told to me by family but tried to make it clear it was hearsay to me and that she should contact her previous therapist to confirm.
After the session I received an email from therapist saying D15 will most likely need intense outpatient therapy or in patient therapy with a list of places to go in case of emergency or if we are looking for an in care facility, as well as some recommended psychiatrists.

I know as well as you do that it takes a long time to make that kind of diagnosis. I have not heard back from therapist to see if this is a recommendation to do now? Or just information if needed moving forward. Or really why she sent it.
I have also not talked to mom about it until I get some answers.
 

I should also add that this new issue with the kids has changed the way I look at the relationship.

I have been working on an exit strategy and tightened my boundaries up so it will be easier to recover if things don't work out.

I will still give it my all but now I find myself more reactive than proactive and where it goes from here is about mom's commitment to seeing her daughter get help and a chance at a better life and maintaining a relationship with me. Maybe she isn't capable of both.

Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees  *)

You started this thread with the question, am I just not ready?

In the course of 60 posts, it comes out that this is a long 120+ day, long distance relationship, with a beautiful young woman, who has a 3 children, one of which is in destructive emotional turmoil and showing signs of "BPD like" instability. You have received a warning from the child that she knows she can make false claims of abuse. You have also found out that she did this with another family member. You lawyer and your support group tell you that you are in a high risk situation.  You admit that you don't yet have the parenting, special interests skills to raise a child like this, your assessment is that the mother does not have the skills either and will need to be coached on her parenting.

So going back to your original question... .are you prepared to take this step? Or maybe more to point, are you entering into a scenario that is reckless and has excessive risks and are you ignoring advice to make changes to mitigate the risks to an acceptable level.

It's a question. It's not a conclusion.

I will say this. You can't really know mom in 120+ days via long distance relationship. This is style the honeymoon period, your in the normal idealization, mirroring and connecting stage. You don't even know why she is with you... .which is an important question that we need to learn (not by asking, by observing) so that we know what kind of relationship we are in.

For example, is she looking for an older man to bring stability a chaotic family? Or is she looking for an older man to bring stability a chaotic mind?

And with these child issues, a lot of future time is going to be spent on children issues, and like "long distance", that will interfere with your ability to know her and develop a strong bond between you.

Please don't look at any of this as judgement of you or her or even the daughter. The daughter might just be 15 and acting out and will settle down when the situation stabilizes and everyone gets to know each other.

I'm just trying to remind you of the question you asked when you came here, and what had been uncovered in your discussions here.

You are the strength in the relationship. The male. The older guy. Ultimately, the quality if thr decisions made and the ramifications of how this plays out falls to you.

Thanks skip, that has been foremost on my mind even though I haven't talked about it lately, someone to take care of them all. Stability and security and I have at least come to my own conclusion that is what the angle is whether she realizes it or not.
As parents I think we have primal instincts that cause us to act.

I try to rationalize it both ways. Staying and going.
Reading through the treatment journal you posted in the other thread I like the terms wise mind and emotional mind.
My emotional mind wants to say you betrayed and mislead me.
But my wise mind says that is the part that is still hurt from the exBPD.

My emotional mind says this is all fake and I was right to question it.
My wise mind says I have talked to the entire family and nobody would have predicted this. That the person I met has been as true and honest as she was capable of being.

I like that she has an apartment and I did not just have her move straight in with me. For now that distance might be the best step to see how D15 responds to a stable environment with someone she trusts.
It also will not wear on the relationship as I am not part of her rages or meltdowns.
After that we can just wing it.

I wanted to update this thread.

GF is living here now. Staying with me most of the time because the kids do not want to stay at her place. They do and she stays there with them, but maybe one night on a weekend because it is like camping to them. At which point I have stayed with her.

D15 and her still fight and argue a bunch, but D15 has not acted out towards me in anyway. The other two girls have been really good. Very little trouble.
Since mom got here, D15 started helping me, not mom. Voluntarily. Doing things like cleaning and taking the garbage out without being asked or told. Maybe she is trying to send a message to mom? Or bonding with me?
Maybe I am slowly breaking her down. LOL

So here is the part I wonder if I should have seen coming. GF is a liar. Maybe chronic, which of course is a red flag and points to other types of disorders.
I have not caught her lying about anything I feel important, like people, money, health, work, but some very blatant and bold faced lies and when I confront her with proof she still denies it to no end. If I keep pushing and I was even telling her I don't mind what she did, I just want to know why she lies about it to me of all people.
She gets upset, makes some accusations towards me. Tries to play victim.
I see the manipulation. Always have.
Shortly after that conversation she still never admitted to lying about the original topic but did admit to another lie I called her on. I think she backed herself into a corner and I didn't leave her a way out.
She apologized for getting upset, said she was sorry for doing it and the way she treated me. How it seems like family always take the brunt of the abuse when they don't deserve it. Said she didn't want to be like that. She is not used to be treated so nicely about things and will try harder in the future to not let things like that happen.

There is my challenge. LOL Anyone want popcorn?

Not sure where it stops. To what end or why she does it. There is nothing to gain. Maybe it is a control thing?
She has admitted some very embarrassing and potentially damaging and hurtful things towards herself, why would she do that and worry about some worthless emails I caught her deleting out of my email account that I gave her permission to be in? 
I have a really good memory and I have even gone back through her letters trying to catch her in lies because it freaked me out and made me question everything.
Most things she has been true and consistent with to her word all along.
I just don't understand why. She leaves her phone unlocked. I have all of her passwords. I snoop and see anything that would make me question her.
Then of course you cannot trust a liar and without trust this is not a relationship I want.
Oh don't get me wrong, I will ride it awhile yet and see what happens, but I have taken more steps to protect myself financially just in case.
Mentally I am in a good place. If she goes I am fine, if she stays we have a lot of growing to do.
I think my support system is strong enough that I can handle and see what happens.

The fun never stops.

Thank you for this. I appreciated this summary of where Hisaccount is and the perspectives. I've found that losing sight of the forest is an idea that will help us see that sometimes it takes a conscious stepping back to rethink our larger wants.

It seems like you equate emotion mind with false thinking, whereas wise mind is rational and correct.

You are suggesting that your anxiety and fear about this woman loving you (for you) are emotions that should be discounted (emotion mind).

You suggest that others confirm your view that this woman is genuine. There was no way to predict any of the drama that followed.

Is that an accurate way to describe how you view these two?

My therapist told me something smart.

If things are going ok, don't make any concrete decisions that can cause problems later. Why commit when you don't have to? In other words, if this were a few months ago, I would have said - well, if you love this woman and she loves you, why not wait a year (rather than 4 months) to have her move her kids out of their schools, and have her move in with you, have her drop all her friends, etc? We all want head over heels love. And generally I hate it when people try to poke a whole on that or act like a timeline is going to be the same for everyone else. But I think in this case, it's fast and it's a lot of big (not small) changes. Perhaps see what happens if you say "I'm in love with you but I want to slow down any major changes in my life so that emotionally I know I'm ready for everything that comes." It seems like she'd decided after 4 months to trust you enough to let you take care of her children. Does that strike you as odd?

We all doubt our judgment after a BPD relationship. Often we are being too careful and too cautious, and that's not a terrible thing. But in your case I would slow down a bit. That romantic falling in love feeling is wonderful - but it shouldn't be the basis for quick life changes.

Just a note about Kim's post:

I'm sorry you went through this. From your message it's clear that the guy you loved, who kept accusing you of cheating, may have had deeper problems than low self esteem. Continually accusing someone of cheating is considered a form of verbal abuse. I know he probably seemed sweet and shy and humble - that's why you fell in love. But please don't blame yourself or think you could have done something differently. Just cutting someone off is typical of BPD as well. Hang in there.