This weekend was not as bad but still pretty bad.

[Hisaccount]

Wanted to update here, always in case it helps someone else. Reading these things always helped me, seeing I was not alone.

This weekend was not as bad but still pretty bad. In all my reading there just isn't much regarding younger teens and personality disorders. Like it is just developing.

One of the complaints the 15 year old had was that she was bored. Felt trapped in her room. (where she chooses to be).
So I spent more time engaging her. She got to do things she asked Thursday and Friday night. Saturday she slept most of the day and until we had to leave Saturday night to go visit.
During the visit she was her usually unpleasant self so we of course left early again.
One of her complaints has been the new school she is in and how she wants to move back and go to her old school again.
Saturday night she started trashing her old friends and her old school. Talking about all the good things and the new school. Her mood was euphoric. She was talking 100 mph. She was hard to understand half the time.
Everyone thought this was a breakthrough but I knew better.
After about 2-3 hours of euphoric state she boom just fell asleep. Gone.

Sunday morning she didn't come out of her room. I made BLTs. Which is what she had requested. When they were ready I knocked on her door. She came out. Said the bread is toasted wrong. I offered to let her toast her own. She refused. I made another batch not toasted as much. She didn't even look at it and told me it was wrong.
She demanded food. Something healthy. I offered suggestions. She declined them all.
Told her she can make anything she wanted and she refused to make her own.
Jokingly I offered her a glass of water. It is healthy and filling right? She refused. Said she will not drink out of my glasses.
I made a frozen pizza and said eat it or starve.
She want back to her room most of the day. Big football fan. I knew she was alive because the yelling and screaming at the TV.
She came out at 9 pm asking what is for dinner. I gave her 3 or 4 options. She declined them all. I said well guess you are going hungry then.
She went back to her room for the night.

Today she gets up, goes to school. Never says one word to me.

That all in itself doesn't sound that bad, but then add her conversation with mom.
This teenager does not care about anyone or anything. She will flat out say, what is in it for me to be nice?
We were at the point she was going to live with her grandma this weekend. Which of course would not last either but it was what she was demanding.
Mom explained how that would affect her sisters. How that would affect her school and her future. She just doesn't care. Complete lack of consideration.
15 year old had said that she was going to have a baby. (not sure why) Then mom says how will you afford to take care of it since you won't live with me?
15 year old says she doesn't care she would just throw it in a dumpster when it got too much.

Just shocking the things she said.
and of course she never apologizes for anything.

mom and I are aligning ourselves very well. When 15 year old says what's in it for me? we will say, you won't get sent away to the hospital.
Basically we are focused on behaviors. Consequences and choices.
We will see how that works standing together.

But we have both agreed that next violent or destructive outburst and she gets sent away for treatment, with or without the police.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Skip]

Basically we are focused on behaviors. Consequences and choices.
We will see how that works standing together.

But we have both agreed that next violent or destructive outburst and she gets sent away for treatment, with or without the police.

Hisaccount, I don't want to second guess this, but do you know what she is rebelling against? pwBPD traits don't handle stress well. She as been relocated and is living with the "boyfriend"... .there may be some hurt feelings in all of this. If there is an undertone of "get better" or "get shipped off to boarding school", that is a pretty quick escalation.

Also, have you looked into the price of RTC? It is very high.

This is a big task you are buying into to take on a 15 year old who is rebelling. Are you up for it - emotionally and financially?

[Hisaccount]

I forgot to add.

The absolutes. She uses phrases just like my BPD ex.

for example. She says we never do anything.
When in fact we did things Wednesday after school, thursday after school, friday after school and Saturday after we forced her out of bed.
Sunday she wanted to stay home and watch football.

So reality is we never do nothing.

[Hisaccount]

I just added to the old thread you might want to move that as well.

Yes, that has been my whole take on it, is that this is just a new school and new life and she can't handle the stress.
But then you find out the way she has been acting before me.
The things she does and says, it is not okay. Ever. Yet she chooses to keep doing them.

Come to find out she is the one that demanded to come live with me. Told everyone her grandma's house was not safe anymore. She forced her sisters to come here. Threatened that she would drag them if they refused to come.
So she was running from something, or towards a false reality and this is something we talked to her about before moving, told her exactly what things would be like.
She happily accepted all of that. 

Saturday night the 14 year old says to the 15 year old. Don't screw this up for us. This is the best thing that ever happened to us. You forced us to come here and we are not moving again.

That threat of being shipped off is the only thing she currently responds to. Nothing else matters, grounding, taking away of services like phone, tv or internet.
Homecoming is this weekend. She wanted to go, I bet she rips up her dress and refuses to go before Saturday. We will see.
She has been shipped off for psych evals before. She has also been arrested on assault charges.

Emotionally I got a little shaky yesterday. That is the hard part. Mom was working. I can't just take off for a drive or whatever to regroup because there are two other kids that need care as well.
Talked it over with mom and we are on the same page, she supports me completely. She grounded me again.

Two weeks mom will be here full time with an apartment so she can take the 15 year old there or not. Not my problem at that point.

Financially we will figure it out shipping her off, but I think we are talking in patient treatment. 

I appreciate the questions. I want to find a better solution.

One thing that bothers me. Mom refuses to separate the kids. Yesterday I told mom that the 15 year old needs to go.  I told mom that is fine I will keep the other two. She said no the girls are staying together.
To me that would just be condemning the younger two.
Right now we are just holding on until she finishes moving here in 2 weeks. The apartment is right down the street. The younger two can walk over when they want if mom moves them all out. 

[Skip]

During the hearing a therapist can ask the judge to order her to takes meds.

Involuntary medications are granted by a court in nonemergent situations. Mentally ill persons who require chronic administration of medication and yet have minimal insight into their need may warrant involuntary medications. The treating psychiatrist or physician generally applies for the administration of involuntary medications with an accompanying affidavit supporting the opinion that the  patient is mentally ill and incompetent to participate in
treatment decisions, and that the medications are clinically
indicated. The statement also may need to review the patient’s prior noncompliance with medication and expected benefit and potential side effects.

Some states direct that involuntary medications can be requested only for patients who are currently under a civil commitment. The criteria for involuntary medications vary from state to state, but commonly include such aspects as incompetence to participate in decisions about treatment and expected clinical deterioration or dangerous behavior to self or others without the medications.

Court-ordered involuntary medications are time-limited, often lasting only as long as the patient’s civil commitment or for a period set by the judge. Extension beyond that time requires a reappraisal of the patient’s condition, response to treatment, and likelihood of future compliance.

I told her if she is going to make excuses or defend her daughter's actions then we cannot continue... // ... Mom never once tried to defend her. She agreed completely.

Careful. Do you remember Susan Smith? Casey Anthony?

That is not okay what she did or said. Not just to me, but it is not okay to treat anyone like that ever.
I did my best to explain to her, it is not about choosing me over her daughter. It is about choosing herself and her other daughters and not allowing them to be abused any longer... .// ... Says she will not give up on her daughter but will send her way to juvenile hall or hospital, or whatever is needed to get her help.

You may be applying your frustration and the tools from dealing with your wife to this child. A father most wouldn't have this intolerance for his daughter and that is going to make matters worse. She is 15 and the likelihood of recovery is very high (because of her age), but it will take a loving and understanding and infinitely patient hand and structure (and possibly professional assistance either impatient or outpatient). But if it comes of as punishment, intolerance, rejection, it will get ugly, fast - and it will be aimed at you.

Most importantly, studies have shown that recovery is most linked to families with someone who is deeply trusted and has her best interests at heart. You have to earn that, first.

Here is what a recovery looks like. This mom is her daughters strongest advocate. She is also devote Christian.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=120563.0

Yes, that has been my whole take on it, is that this is just a new school and new life and she can't handle the stress.
But then you find out the way she has been acting before me.
The things she does and says, it is not okay. Ever. Yet she chooses to keep doing them.

What if she doesn't have the mental capacity to process the stress? That's what it sounds like. If this is the case, it will take years of being her mentor/parents to habituate her. Yes, you can send her off for treatment, but will only serve to start the process. The whole family will need be trained on how to support her as most of her support in going to come from family members, not clinicians.

Sending her to inpatient will not fix her... .it will stabilize her and be the starting point for family care.

Here are two videos that will help:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=302866.0
https://bpdfamily.com/content/treatment-borderline-personality-disorder

[Hisaccount]

Involuntary medications are granted by a court in nonemergent situations.

Excellent input Skip. Thank you.

That sounds more realistic compared to what mom was telling me.

 
Careful. Do you remember Susan Smith? Casey Anthony?

Talking it over with mom, because really what I am signing up for is serious. She doesn't ever give me the impression she is just telling me she agrees to calm me.
It is more like she is frustrated with her daughter as well and is relieved to finally have some help and direction. To know that she doesn't just have to live with it.

You may be applying your frustration and the tools from dealing with your wife to this child. A father most wouldn't have this intolerance for his daughter and that is going to make matters worse. She is 15 and the likelihood of recovery is very high (because of her age), but it will take a loving and understanding and infinitely patient hand and structure (and possibly professional assistance either impatient or outpatient). But if it comes of as punishment, intolerance, rejection, it will get ugly, fast - and it will be aimed at you.

Most importantly, studies have shown that recovery is most linked to families with someone who is deeply trusted and has her best interests at heart. You have to earn that, first.

Agree completely.
I am applying the tools I used to deal with my ex.

Having been through this and understanding a little about this disorder, if that is her condition, I have stayed completely calm and level headed. The only time I have made threats is when she got violent.
Otherwise mom is dishing out the consequences, because I know that she will never take it from me.

I have told her mom that she has to communicate with her because I am not in her daughters inner circle and my words have no affect on her. I am the source of all evil currently.
But that I support and enforce the boundaries she set forth.

[Skip]

Agree completely.
I am applying the tools I used to deal with my ex.

   except that I'm trying to say that this will be a disaster if you apply those tools to a 15 year old. 1) they didn't work. 2) a romantic and parental relationship are very different.

Mom might be listening right now, but what happens when daughter is locked away for two weeks. Read that 12 part series I posted about in the other thread. Read about the gut wrenching events and how that family struggled emotionally to try and figure out if they were helping or killing their daughter. Is mom ready to take those phone calls and not be wondering if you're making matter worse?

I'm not questioning your intent or the mothers commitment. I am saying that I think, at least at this point, that you do not have good instincts on this. You certainly could learn, if you want to put in the time. This is a special needs child and she will need you to build a family that is centered around her needs and sacrificing for her for 10 years if she is to have a chance. And there will be trying times.

I think it will help to talk to some professionals on what it takes to make this work so that you don't buy into something you can't see through and you don't try an intuitive appraoch only to later learn that these things require counter-intiitive methods.

If it was me, I recognize that it is extremely hard for a girl to transfer schools in 10th grade and give her space. Set down some minimum rules (she can't sass anyone) and then give her some freedoms - like if she doesn't like what you are cooking, give her 30 bucks a week to buy her own food and then she can eat that or join you. I might look to get her horse riding lessons and maybe a job at the barn helping care for horses.

[Hisaccount]

I see what you are saying. Thank you for clarifying. I looked at my ex as a special needs child. But you are correct it is not the same.

Reading through that now, haven't gotten that far yet.

It all revolves around mom right now. I will try to learn. In two weeks I basically get to walk away if I choose to.

Getting her involved with things. I offered horseback riding along with may other events and she says no. But it is probably no different than spending money. She won't let me buy her clothes, but mom can. Even though mom is using my money. We are standing at the register and she freaks out if I pay, but if I hand my card to mom it is okay.
Something about that is okay in her mind.
She will not serve herself food. Someone has to prepare a plate for her.

Right now all of her hate is focused on me and everything to do with me is evil. So I do my best to keep my distance while being consistent.

Then of course trying to learn as I go.

two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. I can do this. LOL

Thank you.

[Skip]

Right now all of her hate is focused on me and everything to do with me is evil.

Don't think she can't sense your feelings about deploying force (institutionalizing or criminalizing). And even without that, this is a hard move. You are the reason for it. And she clearly has unresolved father issues (if my real dad was here, he would hold me and fix this).

This is a lot for a 15 year old to comprehend and deal with.

She will not serve herself food. Someone has to prepare a plate for her. 

Well this is probably not true    And its not the point. Giving her $30 gives her freedom and it give you freedom. If she doesn't want what you offer (choices) then OK. She has two more options, eat her own food or don't eat at all. No one has to be forced into anything. No one can pout either.

She will test it. Probably boycott a few meals and then stat coming around.

two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. I can do this. LOL 

What happens in two weeks?

[Hisaccount]

In two weeks mom transfers finally and will be living here full time instead of 3 hours away.

She has told me I am the adult and I need to know how to take care of her. LOL
I told her I am doing the best that I can. Which of course is not good enough.

Previous weekend I took her for a drive to calm her down. Which really didn't work, but during that drive she started saying things that made me nervous. Like she would accuse me of doing inappropriate things if she didn't get her way. I told her we are going home and we will never be alone again.
For that very reason, the kids have keyed locks on their doors that I do not have a key too. When the 15 year old was sick she complained that I did not check on her.
I did, I stood in the doorway and talked to her and offered her things. I sent her sisters in the room to check on her.
She refuses to come out and lay on the couch where the family is and I am not going in there. That is her space.

She accused grandmas boyfriend of doing and saying inappropriate things. True or not I have gone above and beyond to avoid any possible accusations of such.

I am sure she does feel coldness from me now, but this is the world she created and I explain why I do or don't do things when she demands them.

Food is the same way, I agree she has a choice and she has now created that very situation you describe. Eat what is offered, make her own, or go hungry.
Last night she went hungry.
Except she probably snuck out of her room and ate when we were all in bed.