BPDFamily.com

This thread is continued from a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316173.0;all

---

I just had a tough talk with my wife on the phone.  She said that D16 probably isn't going to get into her favorite college because I've brought this on our family at the worst possible time, that I wasn't thinking about D16, and that my wife can't function at all and help D16 with the potential prosecution hanging over her head.  It is a real possibility that without my wife's feedback and emotional support D16's application will be shaky.  My wife daily wants to talk about how I betrayed her, and I keep asking that we hold off on discussing contentious issues for now and focus on supporting each other and the kids for the next few weeks.  I don't think we can deal with any of this without help.  I can't be honest.  I can't talk about how betrayed I feel from all the horrible things she has done with chronic abuse.  I am praying that we can hold things together enough so that D16 can put in a college application she feels really good about.  I told my wife that I had been hoping I could put up with whatever she dished out until the college application deadline, but just couldn't.  That was too much honesty.  She scoffed at me, and said I didn't have anything to put up with.  I cannot bear the thought that my choice to report when I did will derail D16's dreams.  I could not tolerate the abuse playing out in front of, and being justified to, D12 for another day.  I could see the impact on her behavior and it alarmed me.  Part of me wishes I'd just accepted whatever damage there would have been for another five weeks and dealt with it then.  And I am so upset at my wife for all the damage she has done and continues to do, and for not taking any responsibility for it.

I should maybe explain a little bit more about D16 and her college application.  We've been through the college application process before with D18.  It is a stressful time, but also a wonderful time, where you get to be proud of what your child has done, and how they are about to launch on their own.  With the essays, you see their creativity and personality come out.  And then, in the end, you read things over and see that they put everything they had into it, and whatever happens, happens.  It's not the result that I'm so fixated on (though that would be nice  but the absolute requirement that she feel like we supported her and she gave it her best shot.  This is a singular moment in her life that cannot be deferred or forgotten.  That is why I am so tortured about making a decision in favor of me and D12 at the expense of D16, wondering which path would have involved the least damage.

My plan is to not undermine the integrity of the police report, but on every other front to be supportive and deflect conflict, hoping that everyone can be calm enough for a few weeks and that we get a good result with no prosecution and that my wife and I can come through with good support for D16.

Radcliff

---

Continuation of:
Bullying and domestic violence: When do I involve third parties? Pt 2
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316173

I see a lot of FOG here.

Your wife is continuing to assign you blame for your reactions to her abusive behavior. You don't have to accept that blame. You don't have to accept that any problems D16 is having are your fault.

Also ... .in a toxic family home, there is going to be fallout. It's unavoidable. D16 may have to wait a year to get into the college of her choice. It's not ideal, but she will survive that.

BB, first of all,   - this is one hell of a time for you. You're a really kind and empathetic person, you're learning and implementing so much here, you really should take a step back and acknowledge how far you've come.

First of all, remember FOG. Don't get lost in it.

The moment of releasing a college application is the culmination of many many years of experience, training, and growth. What happens in the next few weeks is extremely important. But keep in mind there are many many years of your D16's life, love, and experience going into this application. These things are not things that just come out of nowhere. They're in there. Your job is to help your daughter find the very best way to bring them out.

And, unfortunately, it's a fact of her life that her mother has a very serious personality disorder. I'm sure this isn't the first time she'll need to call upon her considerable inner strengths to overcome an adverse home situation.

All the things you're expressing are things I've considered myself - especially the desire to deflect conflict just long enough to get past the most recent hurdle. Spoiler alert: There is another hurdle right around the corner. And another one. And another one.

So is it possible to find a way to foster your daughter through this process while at the same time, embracing the reality of your wife's (her mother's) disorder and working through it instead of around it?

I'm in agreement with the responses you've had BB.  Please don't forget that your D16 is learning valuable life lessons from you, ALL the time.  What would she learn about how to care for her own safety and well being, and that of her future family, had you NOT acted?  She will understand that other things will always be happening at home, in her community and in the rest of the world, whilst she has things going on and that is healthy.  What specifically is preventing both your wife and yourself from giving her support whilst these other events are taking place alongside?  What here needs to be adapted to, and how?

Love and light x

DaddyBear77, maybe you could elaborate?  My plan is to not accept responsibility, to listen to what my wife says patiently and let it roll off my back, directing us to constructive action at every opportunity.  B.t.w., you are totally right about hurdles.  There is always another, but this one is a whopper  Thanks for your words of understanding about what's going on.


HQ, my wife says she is incapacitated and can't help and that worries me.  But she loves D16 and is committed to her, and in the past, despite "the sky is falling" declarations, she has come through.  The obstacle is that if my wife is dysregulated, she can't help a stressed out teenager.  In the past, what has worked is for me to find all the strength I can to not allow my wife to make me believe her threats and that the sky is falling -- to just stay calm and be a steadying force.

Ok, so those are great things - except the "not accept responsibility" part feels a little hard line-ish and unrealistic. There are things that you have responsibility for - you did file a report. You are literally responsible for that. And you did it after very careful consideration of the alternatives. And most of us here think it was a good decision. Do you?

That aside, here's what I'm thinking about D16. Now, it's reality that your wife has abused you, and does so at times of great dysregulation. I don't think it's reasonable or reality-based to try and just keep these facts hidden for a few weeks, and expect D16 to say "oh good, mom is finally normal and I'll get what I need from her." So what I envision would be taking the first opportunity to sit your D16 down and say something along the lines of "I know that you're coming up on a really important deadline, and I think I've heard you say this particular school is your first choice and you really want to do your best. How can I help you accomplish this goal?" And then, let her answer. If it's, "keep mom calm" then use SET, and say "I really want to support you getting this application finished the best it can be. I can really see how hard it is to be grounded when there's so much chaos in the house. Unfortunately the issues between your mother and I are very complex and cannot be solved quickly." Then, redirect: "I'd like to work directly with you to help you succeed. What can we do together to get this application finished?"

Ok, that's completely off the top of my head and needs a lot of work. We're peers here - this is something I struggle with every day, so please don't consider me an expert in any way. But if this were me, I'd start with what I just wrote above and work with it to see if it's something I could adapt and make work. Most importantly, it doesn't rely on the unrealistic requirement that your wife stays calm and collected for any length of time. You gotta deal with what's real here. And make sure to represent reality to your daughter as well.

Maybe some others can chime in with some thoughts on this, in case I'm completely off base :)

I can remember working on my college application -- I did not receive any help from my parents.  I was applying for a program that allowed me to skip my senior year, and I don't think they believed I was that serious.  I was, and I did it.  And then they were thrilled.

Your D16 probably has everything in her to do the application -- she may just need a place to work toward completion.  Is there anywhere else -- a relative's house, a friend's house? -- that would give her uninterrupted hours of peace and quiet to do her work?  Then you could review with her, edit and comment.

You do have a responsibility -- you are responsible for doing what is needed for your family's emotional health.  This is bigger than your wife's inability to function because of something she did resulting in a police report.  :)on't get lost in the FOG.

FD, DB, HQ, and Gagrl, thanks so much for your replies.

DB, good thoughts, thanks.  Rather than "not accept responsibility," better wording would have been that I won't accept blame.  I am responsible for the decision for sure.  It is one that I can stand behind.  I'm fallible enough that I've learned not to be absolutely certain about much, but a lot of thought went into the decision before and after the fact, and it still seems reasonable.  Good thoughts about going direct to D16.  The power there is that I can control it and don't have to rely on my wife.  I've done that before with D16, but it was helpful to be reminded of it.


Gagrl, you are correct.  I think the upshot in all of this is that my daughter is quite independent and capable, and my wife, while she will claim a mortal wound, will work for my daughter and everything is likely to work out if I stay calm and remain a steadying force.  I don't think she needs a new location, but thanks for suggesting it.  She is a teenager, and her room is her "cave" -- using fans and headphones she can completely wall herself of and get the focus she needs.  And being older, she's much more able than D12 to have her own identity and wall herself off from parental chaos.

Thank you everyone for helping to keep me on an even keel.  The external reference really helps when I become completely enveloped in the FOG.

Radcliff

Dear @Radcliffs, it must be very taxing and confusing time for you. From your posts I could feel almost tangible inner conflict between your core values and believes and the sense of responsibility. You’ve come a long way knowing and living your truth, you know who you are and how you do/don’t want to be treated. You’ve made a decision to let your wife face the consequences of her actions. Backing off now will only negatively reinforce her behaviour. If I had to made an educated guess, based on the research from clinical literature, very likely, if you backed off now with your police report, then her behaviour would progressively Escalade to see a)how much further you will back off b) magical thinking that “at the end, no harm will come from you. From what I gathered from your posts this scenario doesn’t seem appealing to you. IMHO you should radically accept current reality, as you have, and try to support your daughter emotionally and otherwise. I can, in a way relate to what your wife said to you about being uncapitated. When my husband splits the uncertainty of the future and his behaviour puts me in catatonic state unable to provide the emotional nurturing that my children need. During these times I heavily rely on my parents to remain a constant positive force, and provided foster caregiving while we are recuperating. Do you have anyone who can help your daughter, or simply to confine in?

 C<||| Radcliff  

Hi BB, Just some quick reminders for you... .
1) Your wife "brought this on" by abusing you for many years.
2) You didn't choose the time, the emergency came at this time and you made a fair/reasonable choice to respond.
3) She is the one who tried to mess with you/threaten/escalate via her fake call to the police which you responded to earnestly and with a real need for self-protection.
4) Her need for control of you/the relationship caused this. She is the one committing abuse, not you.
5) You were thinking about D16 and care very much about her present and future.
6) You had to make a hard choice to deal with DV knowing it could impact your kids negatively. You were/are in a no-win situation that unfortunately will have some negative consequences for all involved, no way around that fact. But this can also lead to major improvements - at the least no more physical abuse which decreases your wife's negative impact on the household in at least one area.
7) You can't deal with this without help. You might need some family counseling. A counselor will say clearly that DV is not okay, and not your fault - in front of/to your wife and kids. That alone might make it worth it.
8) If you and your wife can't help with the college application stuff right now (and can afford it) find/hire someone who can.
9) You didn't pick yourself over others in the household. You are trying to realign and repair the entire household. You are making efforts which help the whole family whether anyone recognizes or gives you credit or not.
10) Haven't heard about what ended up in the police report, have you seen it yet? (She tried to make a false call, you made a real follow up call to police, she freaked out later and threatened suicide?) Doubt she'll get much serious trouble without serious bodily injury. With any luck she'll get probation and court ordered counseling though.

You have a list/rebuttal here. You don't need to JADE about this stuff. She is bound to be upset/scared... .those are called consequences - we all face them in life for one thing or another, she is no exception. She is unwell, but she must face them and integrate them into her reality. Let's hope she gets ordered into counseling and has to face more of the reality of these negative behaviors and the chance to learn new ones. She has good sides to her, I know that, but she also has to be brought back into order. It is unfortunate it got this far, but this is not your fault. No victim-blaming here. Abuse takes a huge toll on us and makes us sometimes put up with things that no one should ever have to. You are completely within your rights to say no more to this treatment. No guilt over the timing, okay? No guilt. Let it go. Let yourself feel light, don't not take on this extra weight/burden.

Don't do the co-dependent dance with her on this. You just give this life. You're loosening the noose, so to speak, back tracking, wavering. She feels an opening to change the narrative to one where you are the persecutor and she is the victim and she seizing on it (probably unconsciously). This is drama 101.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Drama is how some people cope. In your house it works. She will spins the drama wheel and you will beg her to stop.

You have to stand strong. She is. There is a battle of wills here that has to play out.

My suggestion is to tell her, in a time of calm, that you will involve others to end the domestic violence and bullying as the two of your agreed before it ruins the family. If she wants to characterize that as you betraying the family, that is not constructive and it will hurt the family, but she is an equal partner and she is welcome to do what she wants.

After that, when she brings up the topic, listen (for a little while),  say, "I understand how you see his", and leave it at that. Then help you daughter... .take time and go to the library if wife is disturbing the concentration.

You want to fight with her. But you don't need her approval, either. And it certainly isn't the time to seek sympathy and soothing from her, or to expect her to buy in.


If you listen to Blaise Aquirre (MD, Harvard) he talks about the difference between manipulations and learned behavior. He would refer to this a learned behavior. She knows this approach will work with you and she will use it until it doesn't work anymore.  Blaise give an example about suicidal idealization - he doesn't allow the parents to visit the child admitted for SI. They found that this ends SI in a large percentage of cases. They don't try to convince the person to see  things their way or invalidate the SI in anyway. They don't make light the SI - to the contrary that take it very seriously. They never suggest that the child is manipulating - in fact, the staff is never allowed to say this word. They just eliminate one factor, parents at the bedside trying to soothe the child - the reward for bad behavior.

Pearl, thanks for your supportive points -- all of them were good.  The pretend 911 call was on a Tuesday, when the police came to our house.  I drove to the station to report several incidents with a letter and video/audio the following Saturday after she was trapping me in the bathroom and in the house and acting out in front of D12.  I am doing my best not to JADE.  As time goes on I'm becoming more confident in my position, and when she tries to blame me, etc. it's hard to contain my reaction not so much of anger but incredulity.  I just try to breath deep and not engage.

<b>:)kandyk, I appreciate your support and insight.  I am growing concerned about how my wife will react at the next step.  If charges are brought, she may dysregulate dramatically, and if they are not, she may be emboldened.  This makes your and Skip's cautions about loosening the pressure particularly important.  If I've loosened already, and charges are not brought, I may find myself many steps backward.  My boundaries around abuse will not slide, though, and I do not think she doubts my zero tolerance stance, which is one thing I believe I have going for me.

Skip, you are calling out some things that I realized at a low level, but it is helpful for you to call them out clearly.  You are right, she knows that my biggest vulnerability is the kids.  She may or may not realize, but I've essentially told her, that her behavior normalizing and justifying abuse to D12 has neutralized D12 as a lever -- I know going forward is the best thing I can do for D12.  That leaves only D16.  She knows D16's college application is my weakness.  I don't panic in front of her like I do with you guys here, but she knows it.  That is why the best way to manage it is to remain calm and not let her get me sucked into the drama, to eliminate the lever the best that I can.  You are totally right that it is a learned behavior, that she is doing it because she gets payback from it.  In the past, when I've recognized she's getting payback from some drama and I learn not to respond, I see how it throws her off her game until she finds a new lever.  She is almost out of levers for good.

You are right that I have loosened the screws a little bit, and I appreciate your calling my attention to the costs.  This time would have been a great time to continue the pressure.  I will see if I have opportunities to lean in a bit more, but my weakness w.r.t. D16 is real, and I need to be realistic about that handicap for now.  After November 1, she can do the rest of the applications without much support, so I'll be able to play a full game, understanding that I may have lost some ground.  While in the past I've had a continuing series of milestones (vacations, kids' events, etc.) that I didn't want to screw up, after Nov. 1 I am ready to stay on this and drive it forward without relenting.

Good reminders, thanks.  I made the mistake of telling her today on the phone that I wish this wasn't so stressful.  Stupid mistake!  Pretending to be invincible yet sensitive is exhausting.

Radcliff

Hello everyone.  My wife and D12 have been visiting D18 since Thursday night, and are returning Tuesday night.  Based a few text/phone communications with my wife, I'm concerned about how the relationship will go when she returns.  It has been wonderful to have some space, though, and to have 1:1 time to connect with D16 in a way I can't when my wife is in the mix.  And yes, help her on her application :)

This post gets a little heavy, but I've done my best to keep it suitable for the Improving board, and hope I've hit the mark.  Part of getting to where I want to go in the relationship is having an understanding of the current reality.

I have been journaling incidents regularly for about 14 months, but I don't read the journals or look at the videos.  One of the main reasons I'm documenting is to get past my own minimization, normalization, and forgetting of events that has contributed to me staying stuck.  Without looking at them, I hadn't used the feedback to understand what has been happening, and in the face of constant distortions and minimizations from my wife, I felt like I needed to go back and look at what I'd recorded in order to keep myself from wavering on my course.

Oy, vey.  Out of 14 months, I had time this weekend to get through the first 9 months.  Even reading journals, when looking at it day by day, I still had trouble "getting" the big picture.  So I made a table, with several types of abuse listed as rows, and a journal date in each column.  In each cell, I put a number down for how many times each behavior happened on each day.  I was shaken by the results.  I've never had visible marks, and you could visit my house 4 out of 5 days, maybe even 9 out of 10, and not see anything amiss.  So it's really easy to just stuff it and move on.  But looking at the table, that 9 month period was completely peppered with incidents.  It looked like a minefield.  The top 3 rows were emotional abuse/distortions/gaslighting (36 times), sabotage of my activities or communication with the kids (27 times), and assault (25 times).  There are more rows, but that's enough to give the idea.  No wonder I've been feeling burdened!  Just to be clear though, in the last two weeks since the police report, physical and blatant emotional abuse have dropped to zero, so things are safe right now.

Another thing I've been wondering about is the line between simply unhealthy verbal dialogue and verbal abuse.  I knew she said a lot of awful things, but felt like my minimizing and forgetting were keeping me from seeing things clearly.  As I was going through the journal, I cut and pasted quotes from my wife into a separate document, which ended up being a page and a half long.  When I saw it in black and white, I knew that all of it was abusive.  None of those things should be uttered in a relationship.  Ever.  I will no longer tolerate it.  Not in this house.

Looking at all of that, I realized that my relationship reality is worse than I thought.  My wife is sicker than I thought.  The damage is worse than I thought.  I am being mindful not to feed on drama -- I feel like I did long ago doing triage, preparing to get to work, but aware of the human toll.  I'm mostly not angry.  I'm feeling deep sadness, bordering on anguish.  For me, sure, but just as much or more for my wife, that this person I've loved since I was a teenager has sacrificed much of her humanity with this behavior, and for my children.

I was almost useless at work today.

I realized that even though she's been "clean" for two weeks, like a dry drunk, the underlying dysfunction is still there.  The outlook that allowed this to happen -- contempt for me and lack of consideration for me as a person -- is still there.  I am struggling to reconcile my empathy for her vulnerable inner child with the fact that I can no longer deny the actions of the adult.

She is expecting me to cross the entire gap between us.  In the past I have closed as much of the gap as she needed me to.  But this time I am stopping short.  I look at what has happened and I cannot cross the whole gap.  She will need to come towards me part of the way, or I will be left standing there in the middle of the gap, alone.  She will feel betrayed, and I will feel alone.  But to cross the whole gap I would have to betray myself.  This is a scary place to be.

Radcliff

Hi BB,

This was an important exercise you undertook - coming to grips with the past and the reality of what you've experienced. It will help steel your nerves and focus you for what happens between now and when the prosecutor decides how to handle this.  

Your words remind me of a famous quote:
"Leave your front door and your back door open.
Allow your thoughts to come and go.
Just don’t serve them tea."
-Shunryu Suzuki.

So, you undertook this step, but let's not stay there in that place. Be in the present and go forward. Let it go. Let it go. Let it go. You are doing great! This is how life is unfolding. This is what change feels like. These changes will benefit your family in the long run.

Let's lift back up, when you are ready to stand again, and find balance... .You had the chance to be the kind of dad you want to be without anything interfering with that and that sounds just super!

You have not betrayed her by bringing in the police. The police had to be called to protect you and your right to freedom from physical abuse or false threats - things which could have an even bigger amount of damage. They had to be called to help prevent her from potentially harming herself as well. It is not a betrayal. However she may frame it about that, feel about that, you don't have to. Okay?

I remember how I felt some guilt one time having to call Child Protective Services on someone while I was working at a DV shelter. I had just come to work and I heard someone yelling at someone else in another room at the end of a hallway. I thought it must be two adults fighting. It was actually a woman yelling at a child in a stroller the way adults (might) yell at one another - the word choices, the extreme tone, volume, etc... It was so shocking and horrifying. There was already a room full of women and other children standing there watching this when I walked in. No one was doing anything. They were all a bit paralyzed in fear. I reacted to the danger. I took the stroller with the child in it, rolled it to my office, locked the door and called CPS. They came and checked on things and took the child, but not the woman away. This at the start of my overnight shift. It simply had to be done. I could not let this be. I will never forget how it sounded hearing this woman yelling at this child and the horrible things she was saying and what she was prepared to do I think... .But I felt some guilt. Sure. I know it was likely unsettling for others in the shelter to see CPS come and take a child away from a mother. And I made a call that would affect her and her family for a long time I presumed... .and what else might she do in reaction to that? (I am forgetting that piece of it now... .) But that whole situation was serious and hard to swallow, but that was how that day went. But what mattered more? That child needed to be protected from abuse. You and your children need it too. That's why you made the call. It's a hard call. It's not something to take lightly or without consequences, but sometimes we do hard things, okay? We just have to. Let the guilt go. It serves nothing. You are good person for caring, but the guilt... .don't let it eat you. It's not worth it. Okay, man? If you had made the call on a day she was actually hitting you would she let you off the hook on it? Nope. So, let it go. That day was a long time coming. She well knows she has no right to do such things despite all the mean words (or an illness). Right?

You are not alone! You have a support system here and with some folks in your regular life as well. :)

You were useless at work today? Okay. Well, you'll give 'em a little extra another day if/when ya can/want to! :)

Yep. The cycles will come again. You know that too. Okay? The earth keeps spinning too. You have great tools with how to respond so you face her spins. Sometimes it will go better than others. No living in pain and fear. You can take breaks when you need them.

I am going to say this again because I see you worrying about this point. You have not betrayed her by bringing in the police. All the garbage insults, threats, etc. she may throw about it don't change that fact. Fact. :) Do you have a way to respond when this comes up? A short response and then you stop right there before it becomes an argument over this point?

Her suffering arises from her, and her expectations (about you doing all the work to "close the gap" arise from her own suffering - this terrible illness. You don't have to close that gap. You can't. You can't. You can't. You are not apart though. You are connected. You have not abandoned her. You just can't and shouldn't take the responsibility for her, and you can't take on her consequences. You have enough to deal with facing your own. You may end up with a divorce you don't want. Yes, that can happen. That is part of reality. Or you may end up with an improved marriage. Both of these options you will survive. :) I'm not saying anything you don't know. Just reminders. The good news is because of you and your standing your ground (with all of your backup/support) the physical violence can be over. She is forced to learn how to communicate in a way that doesn't resort to violence. I know. She says horrible stuff that hurts a lot too. But one piece at a time.

She may come home today and be mad/distant and threaten a divorce, etc. You are still there for her, you just aren't gonna fix this. You didn't break it. She went too far. Not you.

I did the same thing for the same reasons, Radcliff -- reviewing my journal, I was shocked at how I had minimized the pattern of events. I viewed every major dysregulation as worse than any before it, but my records showed that they had been just this bad for months or years. Putting things on a spreadsheet made it clear that it was an ongoing pattern of abuse, not a few isolated clusters of incidents.

So, it's good that you are armed with this knowledge. What do you do next? Refreshing myself on the lessons here (conveniently listed on the right side of this page), I see more that you can analyze. How are you at the basic tools - wise mind, listening with empathy, avoiding invalidation, setting boundaries? Have you tried any of the communication tools in lesson 3? If all of that has failed (other than calling the police) ... .well, there's lesson 6, "When everything else fails."

What do you think?

This is where I'm at too and it is a horribly scary place to be.  I've tried to make amends and own some of my issues and acknowledge that there is still much work to be done.  Unfortunately she still feels its entirely my responsibility to step up and love her fervently (she also claims that she has closed her half of the gap regardless of how I really feel).  Realizing that by standing in the middle could leave you entirely alone is not comfortable.  Every day is uncharted territory at this point and you have done more work with more care than anyone I know.  I too someday hope to be able to stay and stand strong in the middle and let the chips fall where they may.  

good luck,
-Oz

BB.  Your actions of late have broken the status quo of your relationship. That is a good thing. It's also an uncomfortable thing as the two of you now have to reestablish a new status quo.  I say this only makes the point that you're not solving a day-to-day issue right now, laying down the foundation of going forward.

 Try not to be reactionary to the past, or even her reactions right now, I would think more in terms of what the new status quo should feel like if you were starting over. That includes warmth, compassion, consideration, and mapping what is independent and what is interdependent.

Looking T the history can help if it helps you conceive what a heathy relationship model should be.  I only caution you to avoid injury immersion and to not adopt a model based mostly on correcting problems - adopt on that is more enriching to both of you.

pearlsw, thank you so much!.  I liked your analogy about not inviting your thoughts for tea.  Very helpful! :)  Your replies are always rich with thought, care, encouragement, and wisdom.  You are so generous.  Thank you.

flourdust, it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only one who has done this exercise.  Thanks for the encouragement to go back to basics.  I've refreshed on the lessons as you suggested.

Wisemind -- I generally do OK, here, but will be challenged as she may pull any lever she can to try to throw me off balance and get a reaction.

Validation and Empathy -- Familiar tools, but I'm going to need to bring my "A" game here.  I need to set the whole review exercise aside, and focus on her needs when she returns.  If she brings stress, my stress response is to get clinical and logical, which feels invalidating to her.  If she says her lawyer wants me to write a letter, I'll be thinking, "Since you faked having a divorce lawyer, I'm not even sure you have a defense lawyer, and if you do, I should talk to her."  What I should talk about instead is how I want to support her, how I can do a better job for her if I talk to the DA and don't right letters, how I can be a better advocate if her defense lawyer coaches me in person, etc.  I'm going to need to remind myself regularly on empathy, as I have the power position, she is feeling vulnerable, and I need to make sure I put away my hurts, keep the wisemind even if she challenges it, etc.

JADE -- I'm going to need to work hard here not to get sucked into a discussion justifying why I reported to the police.  She will be telling me that I betrayed her, that all of our friends would say I was a crazy horrible person for doing it, etc.  When she comes at me with heat about why I didn't do something or why D16 didn't do something, I need to avoid feeling defensive and recognize that she's simply anxious about these important things getting done.

boundaries -- I'm getting better at picking them, setting them, rational consequences, etc.  I need to be mindful about introducing and enforcing them calmly and humanely, without letting my actions come from, or appear to come from, emotion.

Oz, it's reassuring to know I'm not the only one feeling this way, but I am also sorry you are in the same boat as me.  Thanks for the support.

Skip, this was helpful, thanks:

Yes, I'm with you avoiding injury immersion.  History helps us understand where we are coming from and avoid repeating past mistakes.  I agree the energy goes to the future.  W.r.t. a model not based on correcting problems, it seems like we are necessarily correcting problems but if you are talking about emphasizing the modeling of a warm, caring home by leading by example, rather than addressing a list of deficiencies, then I'm with you.

Thank you all for the support.  Today's a better day.  I'm wrapping up the history thing for now and putting it aside, having a productive day at work and will leave a bit early to prepare for the homecoming.

Radcliff

That's good. Nobody stays in Wisemind forever, but you are aware of it being somewhere to re-center to when you are thrown off.


This is a perceptive observation!


Wait, what? This isn't validation; this is soothing with bulls***.   You aren't going to have her defense lawyer (if such a person exists) "coach you in person." Can you back up here and think about responding empathically ... .or at least not being clinical and logical and telling her that she's making up imaginary defense lawyers ... .as a starting point? She's distressed. You can acknowledge her distress without having to own it or fix it.

Did you look at Lesson 6? It talks about therapeutic separation. If your best efforts can't reduce the temperature in the relationship, and the conflict starts to ramp up to the point where law enforcement is a viable option again ... .you should start thinking about what your approach is then.

I should give some background.  When I reported at the police station, the police said that the decision on whether or not to prosecute belonged to the DA, but that I could talk to the DA to give input if I didn't want her to be prosecuted.  This seemed consistent with my goals and value, and still does.  If documentation, the involvement of the police, and the light of day is enough to stop the abuse, prosecuting my wife does not serve anyone.  She has since tried to push further with specific demands for how I can help her avoid prosecution, including writing letters, recanting my report, etc.  By offering to talk to the DA, I'm sticking to my original promise and politely refusing to buy into her additional demands.  :)oes that make sense?  Any observations or concerns?

Yes, I've read about therapeutic separation.  I'm not particularly attracted to it, and we don't have the help of a therapist (it doesn't seem like something that should be tried without a therapist).  MC may be a possibility in the near future.  We'll see.  I've felt reasonably safe at home since the police report.  She has done a good job of controlling her behavior, in situations where previously things would have gotten out of hand.  I won't become complacent, but I'm optimistic that the boundary will hold.

Radcliff

I wholeheartedly agree with everyone's advice and support here. You're in an extremely difficult situation and I think you're doing great actually. It's not easy to do what you're doing and it's not easy to stay consistent. I think of it like a cha-cha sometimes. We take a few steps forward and some backwards. The point is to learn from it and keep going the direction you want to go. Hang in there.

If I may ask, what would you say to the DA on her behalf?

Oh, my misunderstanding! I was thinking divorce attorney.

Those are actions (not changes of perspective) and BB, it sounds like the two of you are on your way to normalizing these things... .

Has she said, clearly and unequivocally, that she has acted badly and feels remorse and is going to change, or is the focus on your "bad act" in reporting her?

My suggestio0n is to involved the brother in the discussions on what actions come next - he will he recenter this from fixing your bad act, to solving the problem the DV.

You are missing an opportunity here for daylight.

Do let this thing get turned on you.

Hi BB,

I totally respect your wishes that she not be prosecuted.  I felt the same way and didn't press charges.  However I'm a little concerned that your speaking with the DA to try to protect her from whatever follows may put you in a position with your wife where she feels that she has power over you.  The behaviour has ceased since she has the threat of action hanging over her.  Remove that and things could go up a notch instead of remaining stable as they are.  It seems that her shift in behaviour is driven by fear rather than a desire to change for the sake of the family.  She could easily reach the conclusion that if you were to have valid reason to report her to the police in the future then you would help her to fix it and save her from the consequences.  As one family member to another, could you consider the prospect of allowing things to unfold as they will and for her to take responsibility for herself?  What are the possible outcomes of this report?  Have you been informed of these?

I completely agree with Skip.  :)on't lean on just this one thing, being the report and DA action, to be the driver for better behaviour.  It's not enough to provoke lasting meaningful change.  She has to have the acknowledgement that change is necessary and the desire to affect that change in a purposeful way.  Her brother's involvement as an outside perspective can help to focus things.

Love and light x

Things are stable here since my wife got back Tuesday night.  Uncomfortable, exhausting, sometimes upsetting, but stable and occasionally collaborative on topics having to do with the girls.  Relationship-wise, not rowing in the same direction though.  I stayed home from work yesterday and we talked a lot.  I was super calm, and held my ground without being antagonistic, I believe.  I_Am_The_Fire and pearlsw, thanks for your replies!


Skip, I want to make sure I understand.  She has had moments of remorse, and says the actions have stopped for good, but she is mostly focused on my "bad act" and feels I'm making something out of nothing.  Are you saying that if the abuse merely stops, and we don't have a change of perspective, that the relationship won't get to a good place -- the underlying attitudes will persist, and at the least, we'll have an unbalanced unhealthy relationship driven by contempt without regard for my needs, and at worst, the abuse will begin again?  If so, I think my thoughts on the situation are in line with your comments.


I'm pretty sure that involving the brother would not work unless she is actively abusing or at risk herself.  It would feel like pulling him into a marital relationship issue, which could be messy, unproductive, and unfair to him.  Right after my wife got out of the hospital, she asked, horrified, if I had told any of her brothers.  I did not feel safe telling her the truth.  I did ask if she might call him for support, and she refused.  I will keep him updated, and will call him if things deteriorate.

HQ, I think your concern is important.  I do worry about how she'll act when the prosecution threat is lifted, and at the very least expect some relationship blowback where she lets out her anger about being "betrayed."

Because I've held back quite a bit, and not gushed my willingness to save her, she is nervous about what I will say to the DA.  She also knows I will call the police quickly in the future.  Because I promised to ask the DA not to prosecute, my integrity value compels me to follow through on that.  After we get through this one, I'll make it clear that I will not be doing any intervening in the future.  The report includes several misdemeanor offenses that could theoretically involve jail time, but there are no prior offenses and I don't know that the evidence is that strong from a criminal defense perspective, so there's a good chance the DA would not take action even if I didn't intervene.

I think the chances are good that I've seen the last of the reportable abuse.  My attitude has fundamentally changed.  If anything happens again, we will very quickly get to a police call, and if I feel unsafe, to a restraining order evicting her from the home.  The most likely scenario that I see is that she proceeds as a "dry drunk" as I've called it, not abusing enough to get reported but with the same attitudes.

Yesterday, I took the day off of work with her to be with her on her first full day back.  In the morning, we talked about the letter she wants me to write to the DA.  I'm discussing here instead of on Legal because it's really about the relationship.  I think I may be OK writing a very short letter.  It seems like it saves me the trouble of trying to track down the DA, or the risk of missing them before they take action.  

Our discussion about the letter illustrates where we both are on this.  She wanted me to say that I didn't want charges, we wouldn't testify, and we were in marriage counseling.  I was OK with the first two, but objected firmly to simply saying we were in marriage counseling, since I felt that normalized things and implied that what had happened really was something that should have been dealt with in marriage counseling not by calling the police (this is my wife's opinion).  So I added something about the DV resources the police had referred me to:

Dear ____,

I am writing in reference to Case #______.  I do not want charges filed in this case.  I need to respectfully say that I will not be available to testify.

When I filed the report, I was given resources that I am following up on, and my wife and I have also begun working with a marriage counselor.  

Sincerely,
Radcliff

In the end, we couldn't agree on that last paragraph, so she sent a version with just the first paragraph to her lawyer.

So, if that's not enough news, we have our first MC appointment tomorrow.  The T is highly trained in DBT, came referred by someone I know, and I've had a short pre-conversation with her letting her know that there's an abuse history and that I'm an eggsheller.  I'm aware of the warnings around abuse and MC, so am nervous about this but willing to try it.  I really am at the end of my rope dealing with her 1:1 without some in-room support.  Your candor, concerns, and advice on this and all of the other things I've mentioned here are heartily welcomed.  

I am realizing that healing a relationship after abuse is a "thing" and there may be prerequisites, and progressive steps outlined by someone.  Or is it rare enough that there are not good maps?  I'm happy for any links to reading or homework on the topic; I feel unprepared.

*Thank you* for your continued support; words are insufficient to say what a help it has been.

Radcliff

Bringing the brother in is what is meant by giving it daylight and disinfectant... .having one off conversation and then retreating only serves to make it harder to call him next time and be asking for help when it is too late.

The most basic idea of "daylight" is involving the brother in good triangulation. And yes, that immerses him in your relationship. In the long run, this is far healthier than waiting 6 months for another blowup. Remember, domestic violence escalate - it may have valleys - but the long term trend is to escalate unless there is a significant healing plan in place.

As for your talks with your wife - my sense from what you are writing is that she has some token remorse, but the main topic on the table is your indiscretion of involving the police. The longer you have this debate, the more this undermines your position, and the more she will harden her position and the more this sets up future conflict.

Here's a mental image. My friend has good personal boundaries. If someone in a road rage god up in his face, he'd push the guy back and hard. If he guy got back up and said, and sad - hey, sorry I got in your face - but you didn't need to push me. You are the problem here. What would you expect to happen next. Which says "zero tolerance".

1. A long explanation by my friend about how he was justified in hs actions and trying to protect everyone involved from having a future cat wreck.

2. Picking the guy from the ground, apologizing, and offering to buy him new trousers.

3. Asking the guy if you could meet another day to chat about this.

4. A cold silent stare of strength and resolve.

I know the situation with your wife is not this cut and dry, I really do, but I'm sure you see my point. Conviction and resolve, not debate, is what is needed.

Conviction and resolve would sound like - if your attorney want to chat with me, have him call me at work - now lets go forward.  

The brother will likely do one thing that you can't do. He will say that focus needs to be on who threw the punch, not who called the ambulance. She needs to hear it from someone she respects (and who is not you) and will stay steady over the next year and you both work through this.

Hi Radcliff -

Thank you for updating us on your situation. So glad to hear that your wife's return home went well. I know this is something you were concerned about. Great that you were prepared though in case it didn't turn out as you had hoped.  |iiii

I was about to mention 2 things, but I see that Skip already addressed exactly what I was thinking:

Precisely. I've been in this similar situation before. There must be a long-term plan in order to diffuse a possible long-term issue. Can I ask, what are your short-term and long-term goals?

Yes. This is you expressing to her your commitment to move forward. This is an outcome-based statement. Her action on this point should give you a good indicator on her willingness to be on the same page as you moving forward.

Your wording in this quote grabbed my attention: "The letter SHE WANTS me to write to the DA." Is this also a letter YOU want to write to the DA? Do you feel there is an opportunity to discuss with her what you BOTH want and what is in the best interest of your r/s and family? Do your discussions revolve around "Us" (marital r/s & children as a whole unit)?
On a side note, the part of this post discussing the wording of your letter to the DA may be suited for the legal forum. You may get more feedback there in regard to the specifics of this. If you decide to post this part in that section of the forum, I feel I can add more to this, having been in this exact position myself.

Having said all this, I'd like to express that I think you are doing an incredible job. You are always looking at what you can do to improve the situation. Many props & hugs to you!  |iiii  Please ensure that you are taking good care of yourself during these trying times.  

I would really question writing a retraction or a "it really isn't that bad letter to the DA". It will suggest that you over reacted. What happens next time you call them? She will tell the cops about this letter and how you over react.

I don't even think her lawyer would need this, anyway. I'd talk with her lawyer, directly. Don't approach the law in a criminal case based on what you feel. That is never a good idea.

Thank you, Skip and Moxie.

Skip, I see your point about her brother, but there are enough moving parts here that I'm going to avoid that for now, and focus on adjusting in response to your other advice.  If we don't make progress, I'll keep in mind your advice to involve him before there is a crisis.

I do not believe the very short one paragraph version of the letter is a retraction.  That second paragraph is on the cutting room floor.  I have definitely wanted my wife to avoid prosecution, and still do, though my conviction on that point is starting to slide, as she keeps minimizing what happened.  Just the same, I did commit to my wife to talk to the DA.  I do not necessarily have to write a letter.  Yesterday I was thinking I might be OK with it, but today, less so.  I talked to a woman who runs a local DV organization today, so I have some local support.

Skip, I completely get you on projecting confidence and not allowing the appropriateness of the report to the police to be in question.  I have been doing a fair bit of that, but it's still a work in progress.  I've stopped making apologies, but am not quite projecting full confidence and closing that issue.

I am starting to see how tabling the issue of agreeing that DV was bad, even for a short while, is confusing things and making it more difficult to set the stage for healing.  Skip, you gave me this advice a while back.  I knew it was real, and now I'm looking at it.  I want to avoid being injury focused, and my wife is very articulate in trying to convince me that that is what I'm doing, but I see that I need to make an adjustment and will start leaning in more.

I'll post to the legal forum, thanks Moxie, for the encouragement.

Radcliff

Hi BB, There is so much going on here, a lot to take apart. I can't get to it all in one reply, but I have concerns.

I'm bringing this over from the other board you posted on because I didn't want to jam up your "legal" replies over there, but I want to echo what Skip is pointing out about normalizing - sliding back to your old "normal".

You wrote, "
BB, With all due respect, no, she does not have a point - not one that holds any water. You were not "clumsy in holding your boundaries". She threatened you with a false report that day, right? And you were "in the wrong" because you didn't keep a "promise" "only" to report "extreme" physical acts? No. Simply no. Sometimes things change. Had she "promised" not to make a fake phone call to the police? Had you worked that into the "deal"? No.

All of this abuse is distorting your thinking BB. You made a report, went down there in person right, because a real false report could have potentially ruined you... .And because you had a lot of evidence of abuse. Her (horrible) bluff backfired on her, and the consequences are serious, or should be.

She does not have a point, and I'm going to firmly suggest, with all concern for you, that you stop making this point for her or conceding this piece of ground. Twenty-five assaults. In just nine months. So, on average, every 10.8 days she assaulted you. This is not normal or acceptable. This is extreme. I say "is" and not "was" because it is not over yet.

BB, You too are part of the problem here. What do I mean by this? Her attitude has to change, but so does yours, okay? Your "deal" with your wife (and this may have been pointed out before) was negotiating the terms of your ongoing abuse, not putting an end to it. It's like saying you can't barrel bomb me anymore, but hand grenades are "okay". And now they (her and the lawyer) want you to participate further in the abuse by helping her in the courts? Because that is what this is sounding like unless you have a full change in your own attitude, and unless she shows genuine (not mushy) remorse. Is she willing to do all it takes to unlearn being an abuser? It will take years of hard work to unravel/improve this all I think. I'm not saying you should cooperate with the DA if you don't want to, that is your choice. But I think you should be firm that you want her to get help with the abuse issue so that you don't have to endure any more abuse. That is the point of all this right?  Marriage counseling (with the pitfalls that can entail) doesn't seem to be enough of an answer. What if she "hates" it and then just stops after a few tough sessions after the authorities are out of the picture?  What are you guilty of? Being a poor communicator sometimes, a less than "perfect" husband? Not a crime. She has committed serious, chronic abuse. An actual crime, crimes really. There must be actual remorse and something to deter more of this. What that is, I don't know... .

Please go back and read that list of ALL that constitutes abuse. (I know you were being coached and have had trouble with boundaries, etc. and had an idea about how to cut this down, etc.)  While you are talking frankly with your wife, if you are really getting into the weeds here, how about showing your wife that list? I've hesitated to say that before because I didn't want to give her more ideas, but perhaps put it in an email? Or taking it to the therapy session? Let her quietly and silently study that list and then have the chance to ask herself what abuse is and how many of them has she done? How do you expect her behaviors to change? How, if she does not acknowledge them and keeps blaming you for her legal troubles? Stop making the issue that you betrayed a promise - and I think you are doing this a bit too, not just her. The issue is she is seriously out of control and needs help acquiring new communication skills that are respectful and healthy... .(and legal!). You love her and want to preserve and improve the marriage - that is commendable. I don't want her to go to jail either. I care about her humanity too, but I do want her to get help and stop abusing you. I do want you to get help and change too and to have a happy, peaceful life. The #1 issue right now is her abuse. What is she going to do about it? Does she acknowledge it and can she/does she want to change? Not just her actions, but her attitude. Is your wife also aware that once the MC starts she can no longer abuse you because counselors have a duty to report abuse?

BB, How do you feel? Where are you in all this? I'm getting a sense of how she feels/what she wants, but what about you?  :)o you want to do all you can now with this opportunity to make sure you aren't right back at this spot in 6 months as another poster suggested? These are patterns, long, hard, ingrained patterns - hers and yours.  This has naturally affected your self-esteem. How can we recover that? Instead of feeling "bad" about reporting I suggest a "never forget" why attitude. I see that you are balanced and understanding, and those are nice qualities, but what you also need to be is fierce. Stand up for yourself without apology. Until you strongly, unequivocally say NO to physical and verbal abuse you will keep getting abused.  

I have to agree with pearlsw on this.

BB ... .have you taken the MOSAIC assessment? It will give you an objective analysis of the level of abuse or violence in your relationship. It can be eye-opening.

pearlsw, thanks I needed that.  I will re-read your post several times.
flourdust, if I remember correctly, I think I scored an 8/10 on MOSAIC, but I think I was a little pessimistic.  For example, I think there was a question about threatening pets and I answered "yes," because she held bleach over my fish tank.  Threatening a mammal, now that would be messed up.  Sorry, please forgive the dark humor, I have to vent every once in a while.  I found MOSAIC to be very helpful, as much for reading the questions they asked as for the numerical score, which I do think is imprecise.  I believe my risk of psychological damage is much higher than physical harm.  I finally called a local DV advocate yesterday, and she introduced me to the term, "coercive control."  With some of the learning I've been doing about abusive control, I can see that it is rampant in our relationship.  The thing that is mind-bending about this is that she is so high functioning, and can be wonderful with me when she decides to be.  I still have trouble wrapping my head around that.  I hope I'm not being naive in thinking that things will stay physically under control, but that's my best prediction.  I am preparing for a "post assault" era where abuse goes underground and she avoids anything reportable.

I just now got an e-mail from the police detective saying that the DA won't press charges, so that simplifies life.  His exact words were, "the DA has rejected your case" unless I provide more evidence of DV.  I was surprised to find that felt a little invalidating!  But it is of course what I'd asked for, and means there will be no distractions for D16 and the rest of the family this month.  I did not talk to my wife, but I heard her take a call from her lawyer, so she knows.  Just before the call she was starting to follow me around the house in an intimidating way for the first time since the report, but after the call she seems calmer.  I expect some sort of adjustment in her behavior, for better or worse, I'm not sure.

That is not the only notable thing than happened today.  At noon we had our first marriage counseling appointment.  In a bizarre twist of fate, when we got to her office, our new MC told us that she has breast cancer and wouldn't be able to start with us (her prognosis is good, and she is hoping to have a short, successful course of treatment).  My wife had breast cancer six years ago, and that's when life really started to go off the rails, so this was strange.  We talked for an hour, and the MC gave us a couple of good referrals to other DBT trained MC's.

There are two reasons I bring up the MC.  The first is the MC herself, and the second is my wife's behavior.  The MC is highly trained in DBT.  I could see a well worn copy of a Linehan book in her office, she recommended Frizetti's "High Conflict Couples" book, and I could see a white board with homework assignments from a DBT support group.  She was full of empathy and validation, but also skills-oriented and goal driven.  I got a little taste of what effective therapy might look like.  Wow.  I want to get us some of that!

My wife thought it was a waste of time.  Half an hour before the appointment, she said she wasn't going.  She wanted me to beg and plead.  She said, "Give me a reason why I should go.  Give me a reason why I should invest in our relationship."  I said, "This is important.  We both said we'd go.  I'll be in the car."  I said variants of that three times as I meandered towards the door.  She came.

The therapist asked us what the first thing we wanted was.  My wife basically said to fix me.  I said for us both to feel safe and confident that all of our communications would be with care and respect.  The therapist did a lot of validating on the amount of stress we've had in our lives, with my wife's cancer, her mother's passing, a couple of career disasters I've brought to us etc.  After the session, my wife said two things that were very interesting:

"That therapist really didn't like you," and,
"You were really upset that the therapist concentrated on me and didn't give you any attention.  I could see you getting angry."

Wow.  Sorry, I'm an optimist.  The glass is 1/16 full for me.  I had thought my wife might engage a bit.  So to see this kind of projection/warping was a little surprising, I'm embarrassed to admit.  I know I should have known.  I suppose I did.  But I was hoping for better.  The irony is that when I set up the appointment, I asked the therapist not to put me on the spot in the first session -- I said my highest priority was to make my wife feel comfortable and willing to come back a second time.

When we came back to the house, my wife wanted to sit down and talk about my part in the relationship and how I'm responsible for everything.  Wow.  I politely refused to engage in any such conversation, said I was getting a glass of water, and became very interested in loading the dishwasher.  I'm going to call that a victory for today!

D16 has a deadline to give a draft college application to a counselor Monday night.  I took off work today for the therapy and to make sure things were running smoothly at home, and I'm off work Monday as well.  Stalemate for now with my wife.  I'm going to be a nice, patient father and husband this weekend, but will not get drawn into any discussions about my sins.

I am believing more and more that my wife and I cannot talk productively unless there is a major change in perspective from her, and/or we have outside help.  (Yup, call me Einstein, I know this is what you've been telling me  My intent is to keep things calm until Nov 1, then I'm visiting my sick mother the first week of November, so I have three weeks or so to learn and plan the next steps.  I'm still interested in moving the relationship forward in a good direction, but recognize the obstacles.

I'd welcome any input/ideas for what to do next with my wife, or suggestions for reading/learning in the next few weeks.  You guys are totally freaking awesome.  Thank you.

Radcliff

Do you see how easily you minimize her behavior? It's right freakin' there!

Yup, I suppose that's why I answered "yes" to the pets question on MOSAIC.  Tonight, when I saw her gently and artfully helping my daughter with her college application, it was so easy to see her good qualities and try to forget what else happens.  My kids don't really see it (or at least I think they don't, and if they do, they need to normalize it in order for the world to make sense.).  Nobody outside sees it.  She can be a wonderful person.  And yet the pattern of coercive control is unmistakable.

I just found a book by Lundy Bancroft, "Should I Stay or Should I Go," which reviews said is a good way to assess an abusive relationship and see if you've done all you can do to repair it.  Seems like my next assignment.

pearlsw, I just reread your post.  Thank you, friend.  It was beautiful and appropriate, every word.  I needed to hear it.

Radcliff

OK, I just finished a quick read of "Should I Stay or Should I Go."  It talks about personality disorders as separate problems from abusive behavior, with personality disorders driven by emotions and abusive behavior driven by abusive attitudes of disrespect.  My wife certainly has deeply ingrained disrespect that drives her abusive behavior.  In fact, her behavior that's merely emotionally reactive seems relatively easy for me to deal with using our tools.  I don't know Bancroft well -- I know he's pretty well-known, but I don't know his credentials or how evidence based his work is.  But, if what he is saying is true, then the abuse I'm experiencing may be not a manifestation of BPD, but a co-morbidity.  In reading through the circumstances Bancroft says must exist for positive change, I can see how the BPD traits might powerfully block what needs to happen for positive and lasting change.  This is not optimistic for our situation.

Bancroft outlines four steps to take:
1.  Connecting to her empathy
2.  Getting others to challenge her (e.g., Skip's advice for me to involve my brother-in-law)
3.  Stop protecting her from the consequences of her actions
4.  Taking some time apart

I'll have another go at #1, but we know with BPD that's a long shot.  I'll also reconsider #2.  I believe she'd become wildly dysregulated if I involved her brother, but if the alternative is the relationship failing anyway, maybe it's worth a try.  I'm happy to do #3 immediately, but in this case don't see any consequences that are likely to have a big impact on her.  #4 is tough, since we have kids.  I'm not leaving the house.  It is possible I could encourage her to (unlikely) or I could force her to with a restraining order.  No appealing options.

I'm interested in anyone's input on the relationship aspects of this, and strategies for improving.  I'd also be interested if anyone has thoughts about whether abuse is a manifestation of BPD or a separate problem that can occur alongside it.

Radcliff

Bancroft and wife are valid authors. A lot of members use:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=128027.0


Actually, I suggested 1,2, and 3.  :)   You're good with #1. Number #2 and #3, not so. Maybe they feel contrary to #1.  I suspect it's an entitlement issue. You do not feel entitled to these things.

They are not contrary. I might suggest reading Romantic Fool's threads to see the other side of coercive control... .the honest emotions behind it. The actual surprise at the benefits of giving it up.


You might want to add these definitions to your list: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.msg1193549#msg1193549


If I have one criticism of the book is that it is not very optimistic. I think that is to make the point that this is a "fix or leave" problem... .you have already crossed over that line of understanding.

You're wife has been responsive, and that is optimistic, even with your relative timidness and approval seeking tendency (stand a little stronger BB).

Lastly, feel blessed that you have this therapist. She sounds like the perfect resource. You may wan to ask for a referral while she sorts her medical issue. Your wife will want to make this about fixing you. Let her go down that path and don't JADE. The therapist will ground her.

Skip,

Thanks very much for the detailed tips.  I will follow up on them.  I appreciate your more positive spin on things.  I will concentrate on standing tall and slowly ratcheting up the pressure as you advised long ago.  I feel more ready to do that now.  My goal is a fundamental change in behavior -- to have her accord me a basic level of respect and to abandon her view that I have to earn basic human respect with my good behavior.  That seems to be the crux of everything.

I think I'm finally seeing how the abuse is on a separate playing field, one that is not level, and that the abuse has to be dealt with first, including the underlying attitude of entitlement and the verbal disrespect.  I'm seeing how the "everybody has a part in this" approach, that is normally appropriate in relationships, can be an obstacle to successfully addressing the abuse first.

Radcliff

Precisely. Domestic violence is unique and its why you start there. Once you get past this, the next steps in the relationship will be more cooperative.

Hi BB,

In response to your question around abuse and BPD being separate entities.  When I first spoke to my DV advocate, I was defending my ex and effectively minimising the violence because of his diagnosis and blaming the behaviour on that.  It was pointed out to me that if a person is an alcoholic or drug addict and they wife batter, does that mean it is purely the fault of the alcoholism/drugs?  I had to admit that no it isn't.  Not all alcoholics and drug users harm their loved ones.

I learned an awful lot in the recovery programme with the DV support service around ingrained attitudes and beliefs of abusers.  It dawned on me that BPD or not, my ex was a classic case of a domestic abuser who used coercion and threats, intimidation, emotional abuse, minimising, denying, blaming, and physical abuse to effect power and control over me.  Was some of this behaviour driven by his emotional dysregulation and fear of abandonment?  Yes.  :)oes that excuse it?  No.  :)id it have any less effect on me?  No.

I hope this helps a little to answer your question.

You are having some good flashes of awareness and recognising the signs that your wife is not coming from things from the same place you are.  Whilst you have your work cut out, follow the advice here and hold up your head in the knowledge that you did NOT make this happen and have nothing to feel bad about.  Stay strong and persist even in the face of things that once may have made you waver.  We believe in you.  Believe in yourself.

Love and light x  

Just a quick reminder that you have an abuse problem, first and foremost, not a communication problem. Just to relate, I did some relationship counseling with a former partner after struggling desperately to learn how to communicate with him thinking we’d be spending our lives together. I read stacks of books like you are doing. :) Like you I like to "give it my all" and make things work at almost any price. (But there are limits.)

Relationship counseling is typically for those who can self-regulate, learn, and are willing to change/improve their own behaviors - not merely blame the behavior on the abused person and "fix you" as she is hoping for. (That’s great that you found a DBT specialized person, but is your wife really gonna be able to commit to this?) I’m not saying she can't at some point, hopefully, improve, but she has to be willing to stop being an abuser first. Is she? Her mindset does not sound like a good fit for counseling yet. You aren't equals in the relationship and don't hold equal responsibility to fix this. She is already using therapy to make threats and control your behavior because that is what she does in all she does with you. Even those "nice moments" when she is helping the kids... .does she use them later to be in a one up position to you? She's the "good" parent, and you are the "incompetent" one. That is how she tries to keep you mentally down, abuse you, by telling you only she is capable.

I don't say this to take away from what you have in this relationship. (Rhetorically I ask: what do you have aside from all this abuse?  Affection, love, intimacy, support, kindness, interest in your feelings and thoughts?) I want you to have some happiness and good memories. You deserve it - we all do! :)

Personal responsibility and accountability are the keys for her to change. Have there been any consequences for her? If not, how will she change? If so, are they enough?

Are you 100% sure you want to let the case go? What would the DA have suggested? I doubt there would be jail time and that is not something I would choose. But would the DA have sent her to anger management, or some kind of DV deterrence program, or required another form of counseling? You might want to find out... .for the next time, and it will very likely come, that either you or her are calling the police and this repeats. If the main thing keeping the peace is the fear of the police, what happens now that that goes away to a degree? And if the counseling isn’t something she has to do or she starts freaking out because she does not know how to live a life where she is not controlling you what then?

This is a marathon... .there are no short cuts on this. But please don't ever think this happened because you are a "poor communicator". It has nothing to do with poor communication on your part. You deserve to be happy and have peace and freedom from abuse! :)

Skip, thanks for your patience.  I think I've finally got it

HQ, I had not remembered how relevant your experience is to mine -- thank you so much for sharing.  Your encouragement and support mean a lot to me.

pearlsw, yes, it's about abuse, not communication, I've realized.  Until I tackle the respect problem and she is willing to try to change, we can't work on the other stuff.  I realized after some reflection on the time with the MC yesterday that even in that short session with a very skilled and aware therapist, my wife was "using" therapy to her ends.  Hopefully the therapist would have reined that in, but it would have taken a bunch of energy and still might have distracted my wife from the fundamental change in attitude she needs to make.  It doesn't sound like that change is likely to come in couples therapy.  I have a referral from our one-time MC (who is sick and can't continue) to another MC, but am going to hold off for a little bit in contacting her while I process all of this.

pearlsw, w.r.t. your point about her accountability, which relates to Bancroft's #3 step, not shielding the abuser from the consequences of her actions, which Skip points out I need to work on -- the issue of the last police report is a done deal, no charges will be filed.  If there is another one, I will play it very differently.  I will call the police to the house, and will do nothing to mitigate arrest or prosecution.  That said, I'm not going to expect a prosecutor to fix my situation -- that's more likely to come by applying pressure to my wife, perhaps involving her brother, etc.  I am going to ask my local DV advocate to help me figure out if there are any good batterer intervention programs for women in our area.  I would want to know that a program was solid before investing any effort trying to get her to go to it.

You asked what I would do it she starts freaking out because she can no longer control me.  It depends what she does.  If she's just upset, we can talk.  If she is abusive, I can involve her brother, call the police, or have her removed from the house.  Last month I got some practice steadily increasing the pressure on her, and watching as she tried to adjust.  I've got some practice at it, and also am feeling stronger and better able to handle possible blowback this next time.  I will continue to prepare.

Thank you all!

Radcliff

---

See the next thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=316172.0