BPDFamily.com

I am 70 and my wife who I think is classic BPD is 67 and we have been together for 18 years.  I still don't know what to do.  She says get a divorce.  She said it in 2016 so I did and she moved 500 miles away.  She was alone and had no one. I am her only family.   After a few months I rescued her, knowing she would never leave here. I fell for the I'll take meds schtick.  I knew she would saboutage that. Besides being stupid I did it need because I consider her family and I realize how ill she is.

At this point in time we don't talk unless she is verbally abusing me. If I say anything the reply is a F U or something derogatory about my daughter, me or deceased father.  I try not to say anything about anything for fear of being verbally attacked.  I help if she asks me to do something that I feel is a reasonable request ( I did not think removing pictures of my daughter and father from the walls was reasonable).  I block her on Messenger when she goes on abusive tirades.

Currently I leave the house (she basically knows where to find me) for as long as I can and when I come home I go into my room and close the door (to avoid her coming in with verbal abuse).

I can feel the hatred, and if I am not sure I can read about it in her emails.  At this time I don't think iI want to deal with the stress she will create during a contested divorce.  I am getting close though. If I thought she could be civil enough for a mediated divorce I would seriously consider it.  I have looked up mediators in the area.  Just not ready for a contested divorce at the moment.  I have asked her how much does she need to live on and she says she wants nothing and later will say she wants everything I have.  At one point she said we can get divorced and live together like roommates.  WHAT?. I was speechless.

Luckily my bedroom is large and comfortable.  I enjoy the quiet time with myself.

I guess I am rambling on.  At this time I try and not respond when she verbally attacks me or others close to me.  At times I do lose it and yell back.  I need guidance as I think my silence does not help the whole situation but I also know if I say something ( ie. if I were to ask how she is she would respond what the F do you care and then commence on a tirade, I will be attacked...

Thanks

*welcome*

I'm so sorry you are in a tough spot.  Very confusing I'm sure.

I'm an ambassador here and I can help you get settled in with a group that can help you sort out this confusing relationship.

 Please look to the right and click on "choosing a path".  Spend some time reading and make notes about what sticks out to you.  Post questions.

Come back often and see what we have to say. 

There are things we can teach you that will improve your relationship (we use shorthand r/s), even if your wife doesn't want it to get better?

How does that sound?

FF

Hi oinoxrn,

*welcome*


I’d like to join formflyer and welcome you to the family. I’m glad that you have found us.

You have the other idea with not JADE’ing (Justify Argue Defend or Explain ) I’d tweak your formula a little bit you don’t want to live in survival mode and live through the motions everyday as you said that’s pretty stressful.

You also did the right think with reaching out to others like you in a similar situation. As you know a pwBPD have mostly negative feedback about the people that they love it’s not realistic and it causes a lot of anxiety with walking on eggshells around a pwBPD. Do you have family and friends that you can visit instead of going I to your room? Do you have hobbies? It helps to change your environment when she’s on the attack like that go out for a walk, go run an errand, go to the gym etc... .

I’ll leave with a suggestion to a book that will give you strategies when you live with someone with BPD.

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, Margalis Fjelstad, PhD, LMFT (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/stop-caretaking-borderline-or-narcissist)

So many things go on that I forget them and/or loose track of them.  After reading the topics on the right I remembered I forgot to mention that 2 or three weeks ago when she was yelling that my father ( to whom I was very close and died at age 95 in Sept 2015) was  an A hole and I was just like him and calling my daughter a B she said I can move out.  Angered, I said she can move and she said no way.  I made the mistake of saying what I had been thinking for some time, that when our landlord puts the house up for sale we can go our separate ways.

At my age I am conflicted as to whether to leave or stay.   I won't even let her know I am using this site or let her see I am reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells" for fear of the rage I will endure.  I cannot bring any of this that goes on between us up because it is all my fault and escalates her anger.  I understand I cause a good portion of the problem because I don't always agree and truthfully give my opinion when asked.  Many years ago when we went to counseling in what turned out to be our last session the counselor said to me as I walked out the door that I would never be able to do enough.  She walked out of a session with another counselor, never to return.  I feel I obviously have a problem living like this all these years.

I do get out of the house to read, go to movies, Costco, etc for several hours a day.  Of course she thinks I am meeting women. Like there are all kinds of women looking for a 70 year old at the snack bar where I read.  I have become friends with the owner who is 28 but we talk politics, stock market, family (he has problems too).

I don't see my wife ever changing since she can't acknowledge to me she is also part of the problem and wants to work on improving things.   We like to travel and have been to Europe over 20 times for 3-4 weeks at a time. I won't do that with her anymore because they threatened to turn the plane around if she didn't settle down (they don't put up with unruly in business class).  

As you can tell I don't know whether I am coming or going.  I am enjoying living in silence as it beats yelling and raging.

Last night (after messaging me in the afternoon to get a divorce and verbally saying it.earlier in the week) and telling me to go to hell she wrote that I don't deserve her but she will always love me. She will always remember the good things I have done.  Then minutes later messaged she cannot let me hurt her anymore, our marriage is over.   I have not responded.  I can no longer take the roller coaster life.  At least if she is mad at me it is constant and consistent  and I can keep my distance as opposed to her being nice for a day or an hour until I say something wrong and then back to name calling, yelling and raging.  

I would like to improve our relationship but doesn't it take two? Probably like many, she is two people but I see the less desirable one too much of the time.  I am losing self respect from allowing myself to be treated this way so for me I feel it is better to retreat and hunker down at this time.  If I were to respond to her message and say I have never stopped loving her I would get a demeaning and attacking response. Guess I am in survival mode.

How do I set this up to know if anyone responds to me?

Thanks

Hi oinoxn,

*welcome*

When someone posts a new response it will send an email to your inbox, the email address that you registered with on the site, there will be a link in that email that that is specifically for new responses, click or press that link and that will take you to the latest response in your discussion...


You’re correct that it takes too although she has social impairments she still has a responsibility to get help for herself and to take care of herself.

You’re mature by taking ownership of your part of the r/s if she wants to blame shift and is emotionally immature then don’t take the lions share of the blame.

There are only two things that we can control how we act and react feelings are not managed by others it is self management. You’re not responsible for someone else’s feelings.

You have a right to feel the way that you do and you have a right to your own opinion. A r/s is complicated we’ll walk with you while you process those feelings... There’s no rush.

Thanks.  I must be doing something wrong. I was not notified of your reply.

Something just happened that I want to know how to respond to.  Do I start a new thread or just post here?

I’d kept it in this discussion for now

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

We'll help you get all the technology stuff sorted out and we'll help you understand some concepts.  Concepts that may make you go... .yeah... .but... .

Sort of like "yeah, but... .don't both of us have to want to improve in order to improve the relationship?"

You know, I remember when the above statement made intuitive sense to me.  I mean... really... if two people are in a relationship... of course both have to work at improvement, otherwise it's a waste of time... .

Well... .I'm happy to tell you that YOU and only YOU can make drastic changes to your relationship, even if your wife has no interest at all.

I would encourage you to focus on learning some concepts for a week or two before trying to implement.  Some of it can be a bit counter-intuitive.  

Alas... .that is the world of people with a PD (personality disorder).  "Standard reasoning" sometimes doesn't work.  Then... ."poof"... .the regular person shows up and you have a completely normal day... .perfectly reasonable.  Then... ."poof"... .the mad crank shows back up... demanding that YOU divorce her (ever note how they won't do things for themselves?)

Seriously... .take note of the demand to be served.  We will teach you to use that to your advantage.

Now... .none of us are going to be able to tell you to stay or to go.  That's going to be up to you.  I hope you will agree, it will be easier to sort out the future of the relationship without so much drama going on.

Thoughts?

FF

Thanks FF

Can you suggest some learning concepts for me?   What are the drastic changes I can make myself?  What do you mean re "the demand to be served (divorce papers?)?".   How do I use it to my advantage.   If I say I am going to an attorney she will say something like FU or some derogatory remark.   If you read my original post you know that I did file for divorce in 2016 and she moved 500 miles away but I foolishly acquiesced and allowed her back into the house  because I knew she had no family or friends there (and know but for her PBD she is a good person).

 I have never mentioned PBD to her.  She thinks she is bi-polar and probable is too.

The other day she said too much light was coming into her bedroom (I could relate) so I bought her a new shade and wrote a note not to touch it as it will fall.  I put it up temporarily and suggested she see if she liked it or wanted the old one.  Yesterday I messaged (I try not talk to her because it will result in yelling or some verbal abuse) her which shade does she want.  She said she would have a friend take care of it.

This morning she says she could not get the shade to work.  I told her that I said it was there for a trial basis.  She asked if I would put it up so it would work.  I said yes.  She asked if it would take long.  I said I have to drill some holes so it will take a little time.  She said why didnt I tell her before that I had to drill because she put all her stuff away.   She said there will be dust from drilling so she has to move her stuff away again but cant because her left hand hurts (said I broke it thursday night).  I said I guess it would hurt.  She said shut up.  I said nothing.  She eventually left, hopefully for the day.

How does one handle a situation like this morning?   When she comes home neither will probably say anything to each other.  That is my safe mode.

Demand to be served as in you cater to my wishes (not served in the legal sense).

Although you can see it in the example of her yelling and demanding that YOU divorce her, vice her just keeping her mouth shut and doing it.

See how she wants to be upset, hand you responsibility for doing things, and guess what... .if you actually divorced her... .do you think she would agree that she was the one that "demanded it"?

You know she would "flip" the story and still be the victim.


Look to the right... .read choosing a path.

https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/00.htm

There is a link... .just in case that helps.

Expect to spend a week or so just sucking up knowledge here.  Much of the important stuff is going to seem "odd" at first.

It's sort of going to be like learning a foreign language.

FF

How does one handle a situation like this morning?

 *hi*

Oinoxn,

I, too, am an ambassador here and would love to help you gain the insight to be able to enjoy the rest of your life.

I must say that when I was in the thick of my marriage with an uBPD, I used to think that this was no way for me to be spending my golden years... .and I am 20 years younger than you. It sucked and there was no end to it in sight, and I could just feel life passing me by in this miserable state.

What you have shared here is so familiar to me, and even makes me hurt inside for you. I know what it's like to only want to do what's best for my SO, only to have every one of my efforts sh1tted on.

I am writing this from MY relatively new office space I made for myself after my STBx moved out. We had made this space into her office originally, but OF COURSE, it wasn't good enough for her to actually use as her office after we painted it and furnished it. It was too cold in the fall and winter for her and too hot in the summer. Meanwhile, I am just fine in it right now and love it. I have made it my space to enjoy.

I used to handle the situation you laid out exactly how you are handling it... .by avoiding her as much as I can... .and hoping she will leave. I also stopped being nice. I wasn't an a$$hole, but stopped doing all those little things I thought would stop her from complaining. Yet she never did.

I got lucky... .she left back on Aug 1.

Have you thought to ask her to leave?

I am so sorry you are in this predicament. You seem like a really nice guy who'd do anything for your wife. I am sorry she is being so cruddy to you.

J

I have asked her to leave.  She is tired of having to move and I stay put.
No way will our landlord let her stay if I move.  He won't talk to her.   I think she may think she can live with me when divorced.

I put the shade up in her room while being verbally abused and not responding... She was telling me to get a divorce and she is going to date (best news in a long time).  I did tell her to get a divorce and She said she can't afford it.   Been there done that with her and after spending 10's of $1000's (never wanted to add it up) she fired her atty when we pretty much had an agreement.  That was at the end of 2016 and then I let her move back.

So they have any smidgen of an idea how badly they treat some people or are they totally clueless?

Did your wife work?. Mine never could.  Too stressful.

My wife now works full time.  I'm sort of a stay at home dad/small business owner/mba student (it's complicated)

Consistent application of "tools and rules" has helped calm things.

I'm curious why you do things for her when she is verbally abusive?  Why even listen to it at all?

FF

I guess I am use to it.  I don't always continur when being abused.  I suppose I should be more consistent and if I am doing something for her I should stop (and maybe leave the house) whatever I was doing  if she gets verbally abusive.   My fault for not being consistent.  One fear I have is if she figures out I leave the house when she acts up she may use that as a control tool to get me out of the house.

When this happens and I stop doing whatever I am doing for her do you suggrest I do it another day or not at all?. Example is the TV. She can't get WiFi signal back on if it disconnects.  Even a bit difficult for me as it is a genius tv

So they have any smidgen of an idea how badly they treat some people or are they totally clueless?

I wouldn't say totally clueless, but they are definitely not in the business of taking responsibility for their actions. I think that the guilt shows up in a very deep recess of their soul, hence the constant state of misery they live in. But they have to jump through logical hoops to feel as good as they can about themselves and typically default to blaming others for their misery.

Did your wife work?. Mine never could.  Too stressful.

Mine does at a job that doesn't require day-to-day accountability to the same people. She's an outside sales rep, so she can make a good, false impression for 20 mins and is on to the next customer.

J

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Look over these articles.  What themes do you find about consistency?

FF

I always use to say no way when she asked for a dog.  I said nothing when she told me during the week that she was getting a dog on Sunday. I think she expected me to say no and argue.  Today said getting dog. I said just know landlord can evict us or her if he doesn't want a dog here.  She said she will ask him.  When I asked if she called she said no because I made her afraid of him.

She messaged me: " Stop playing games.  You're an old man.  We are not happy.  We have never been happy.  We can be happy with other people maybe.  Give us a chance for happiness.  You want peace and quiet.  That will never happen.  I can't stand to be around you after everything you've done yo hurt me.  You don't want me.  You resent me.  You never stop hurting me. Put your energy into your daughter.  You like her.  Be with your family.  I was never your family.  You get up and leave, say nothing, you're indifferent and you enjoy the power ( she is referring to this evening when asked me to sit and said wants divorce, not happy, can't afford atty so I need to do it. I nodded and got up and went upstairs).  :)on't you see how awful this is?"

 I have not responded. I get the feeling that not arguing and responding is bothering her as she continues to sending messages.  She keeps messaging  I should get the divorce.

 I feel like saying if she really wants a divorce tell me how much she needs to live on each month and then find a place to live because the  landlord will not let her live here.  She will probably say or yell she is not moving I am.

oinoxn,

Have you had a chance to look at the lessons in the right side bar?

It's a lot of material,  but it may help you step back and give you tools to help reduce conflict.  

The most basic tool is here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

There is a discussion at the end in the Read More link.  

Divorce or not, reducing conflict will help no matter what the path turns out to be.  The tools helped me given my dissolution with kids.  Take a look and tell us what you think.  

T

T

When I click on the link it says page not found.

My bad (I messed up a paste on my tablet) Try this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

There is no reason to respond to texts or emails like that.

Perhaps later, once you gain some skill you can respond in a healthy or validating way, but lets worry about that... .later.

FF

Yes I do.  I have not been responding.  If I do respond I get attacked and if I don't I get attacked or the number of attacks or sarcastic remarks increase.  I don't consider this an attack but last night she asked if I would take the trash out.  I said sure.  She said "yeah, like you ever take out the trash.

Lately I rarely talk to her as it always ends up yelling I am an ass or similar stuff.  I do message her, at least it is a quiet form of abuse when she attacks in writing. Plus I don't read most of it when I realize she is in attack mode.

How do you stop the bleeding when dealing with someone that says  FU when you say hello or I am leaving ( the house for a bit)?

I think I am getting immune to her same triggers. I don't respond at all.  If I did, no matter how validating it will cause a verbal attack.  she messaged that I have never wanted her to be happy.  I messaged that I can see why she would feel like that. She replied I am a bully, get a divorce, she will find a man that will sleep in the same bed as her.  Mind you, Saturday she messaged she will always love me because of all the good things I did ( that thought lasted a minute) but she can't let me hurt her anymore and the marriage is over.  

.

How do you do this when one says over and over to get a divorce?

She messaged this last night,: I'm going to be the wonderful lady that a guy has been waiting for.  That's my hope.  I don't want to be alone.  But it finally dawned on me.  I don't have to be alone.  I look nice, I know a lot of stuff and you said I was easy to talk to.  So I'm hopeful.  I know I'm old but older people find happiness too.  So will you. The very worst thing of all is after all these years and all the money you have you refuse to give me the security and peace of mind that I'm taken care of under any circumstances, I mean any circumstances if anything were to happen to you, sick, dementia, coma, anything.  We are getting older everyday, anything can happen,  anything.  So everything I've tried to do for you, everything I've tried to do for you was nothing to you, nothing to you.  I never knew you thought I was nothing to you, did nothing for you, I thought over the years I did. That's why I can't be with you anymore.  I can see now that I meant nothing to you.  You keep,saying you're leaving me a lot of money when you're dead.  But you will not explain why you're not taking care of me if you were very sick and someone had to take over the bills.  My bills aren't paid.    That is the most hurtful thing you have ever done to me.  When I see your face, I feel you are a very bad man who used me.  You don't love me.  You would never do this to your daughter because you love her.  You don't love me.  I regret knowing you and trying so hard over the years.  In return you made sure I don't have security and peace if mind that I'm taken care of under any circumstances.  You really are a bad man.  You don't have me anymore.

She had pointed out my trust only gave her money when I die and she did not want my daughter involved in administering the trust when my daughter is 45 (32 now).  I was considering some changes and then the verbal attacks and yelling intensified and eventually telling me to divorce.  Call me a ass, etc so I decided why change the trust when she keeps telling me to divorce.

You can see I am not very good at this.

You can see I am not very good at this.


I don't know anybody who is. Nor do I know how one can be good at it.

May I ask... .where did she learn that this is how to treat your spouse?

I'm not being sarcastic or passive aggressive in asking. I am curious as to where she gets this kind of behavior from? Was she severely abused by her parent(s)? Is someone of importance in her life a loudmouthed so and so?

J

She has never said this but I suspect her mother was something like this.  Did not have many friends and no filter.   My wife mentioned when her mother was living with her she kind of banged the door down to get into my wife's room.

So how do I stop the bleeding when all she wants to do is attack or talk about me getting a divorce. If I said I love her, care about her, etc. it would set off a tirade of verbal abuse and yelling. 

Am I doing the right thing by staying silent and not responding to anything (except requests to help with something).  If I say anything it ends up in an arguement.

Am I the only one that feels they have to write this where she can't see me and hide the fact I read books on BPD?

So how do I stop the bleeding when all she wants to do is attack or talk about me getting a divorce.

I don't know. I've probably missed it here, as confusing as this all is, but why not put the financial parameters of a divorce settlement in front of her?

You can let her know what she's legally entitled to, then also layout what you're willing to do above and beyond, if anything.

Yes. I know the problem is that she will read into this as some act of aggression that has to do with you not loving her, having someone else, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well, it's time for her to grow up and take responsibility for herself and her actions. Nobody has a guarantee in life that they will be taken care of as they see fit.

J

She just mentioned divorce again so I asked if she thought the landlord would let her stay if I moved.  She said why not and I said he does not want to deal with you (because of past experiences with her). I get flummoxed at times but I think she may have said something to the effect that I would still be here.  I said why would I be here if we were divorced.  Think that one caught her by surprise.  I said she would not be able to stay here if I moved cuz the landlord would serve her with eviction notice when I notified him I was moving.  She said the day I move is the day she will move.

About an hour later outside of my room she says she saw something on the news About an hour later says outside my room something she saw on the news she thought would interest me.  First time civil in days. thought would interest me.  First time she has been civil in days.

I have asked her recently how much $$ she needs each month to live on.  She said she wants nothing.  Then I asked her again when she said get a divorce and yelled she wants everything I have.  Then yesterday she was back to nothing.  She gets $900 net a month from Social Security so nothing is not realistic.   I can pay what she needs but she won't tell me.  I don't know what she is legally entitled to as my income decreased in 2017 (don't know how much yet).

The discussion with her about the landlord is a reasonable one... .the thing I would want you to understand is for her, it's very likely divorce and any associated things are not about reason... .it's about strongly felt emotions... .emotions that are likely very uncomfortable for her.

So uncomfortable that she would rather "blame" other people for them, rather than taking ownership of the feelings herself.  

Also the chances you can explain this to her is about zero.  This is for your knowledge.  Please let a professional T explain the stuff to your wife (if that ever comes up).

The other thing about your wife's feelings... .they likely change rapidly and once they "flip" from one way to another (lets say happy to sad)... .she doesn't really remember all the happy or sad and the crazy things she may have said while in a different emotional state.

Listen:  Stop reasoning with your wife about unreasonable things... such as divorce.  

If YOU want a divorce... .don't discuss it with your wife.  Get a lawyer and divorce her.  :)one.

If YOU want to stay married and it bugs you to talk to your wife about getting divorced... .stop talking about it.  TOTALLY.

"I won't discuss this with you... ."  see... don't even mention the word divorce.  "I'll be back in 15 minutes and hopefully we can talk about something else."

Come back in 15 minutes (to keep abandonment fears down) and talk about the new fish place you have been talking about trying.  

Seriously... .don't give her crazy any attention whatsoever.

She "wants" your attention.  The is getting that attention in a dysfunctional way (divorce talk)... .so if you stop "giving her" what she is seeking, she will eventually try to get attention from you nicely.

When she does... .be pleasant.

Do you get the big picture?

When her mouth is nasty... your ears are gone!

When her mouth is nice... .be pleasant in return.

FF

FF

Very helpful and spot on.   

Today yelling so neighbors can hear about ED and yelling what her friends say about my looks.  No response from me.  Then after I blocked her on Messenger I am an ass, F head and idiot.  You’re right I barely hear it anymore.

When I go to the market I usually get something for her if she needs it or if I know she will eat it.  I am thinking this ass should stop doing that.  Your thoughts as I am sure she will verbally abuse me.

I assume you have concluded she would not consider therapy because I have the problem.

Today yelling so neighbors can hear about ED

Which to certain people might be about her looks and demeanor rather than you. If you could get excited being with someone like her, you're a better man than I.  :)

Therapy? With her? Go for yourself. Get clarity. Be heard. Get yourself some support and insights.

J

If she is yelling and you can hear it, I would put on noise cancelling headphones or go for a walk.  Seriously, listening to that is no good for you. 

Have you checked your blood pressure before yelling and after.  I'm going to put my money on 10-15 increase at least. 

Ignorance is bliss in many ways.

Note:  If she can see you put on the headphones... .that is likely not a good idea.  That's like waving a red cape at a bull.

But if you are in other room and she starts ranting... .do what you need not to listen.

Many pwBPD don't like therapy because there is usually accountability.

FF

Jeffrey

Thanks for the laugh.

It is important to keep a sense of humor about all of this.  When you think of it... .much of the stuff "they" do is preposterous... .

FF

FF said... .When her mouth is nasty... your ears are gone!

oinoxn, .I think one of the greatest inventions of our modern times is the "MUTE" button on the remote control... .yes, when those annoying advertisements come on; on the old boob tube, just reach over and SILENCE them !

Love doing that,

I was thinking to myself the other day, which can be a very dangerous pastime, .sometimes I wish I could "mute" my dear sweet wife, .that would be cool you know.

"The television will not work when the ON-OFF switch is in the "O-F-F" position"... ."OFF"... .a beautiful, and peaceful thing... .

As it is, one of the "tools" I use when she starts to communicate to me, in a rather negative tone, or "push tone", is to NOT respond, no, not right straight away, .but to take a moment, and think about what she said to me, and then decide if I am even going to respond to the "push tone"... .always a bit dicey, and one must tread carefully, as to not mishandle the interaction, and then inadvertently "set her off"... .

Sometimes just repeating her question back to her will work (use of sarcasm to disarm)... .

Or responding by asking a completely different question back to her... .to maybe throw her off her intent to "draw me out"... . 

Attempting to change the subject is another good tool, what is the line, blast the BS, .to "baffle" with bravo sierra, flood the communication lines with contradicting, non-important information, to overwhelm with useless information, .to throw out a decoy, deploy a shiny object, .sometimes works... .as I am older, and now hard of hearing, she does know that I may not have heard her at all in the first place, which I do use to my advantage,

Yes, I guess I am hitting the ole' mute button, although if I do take more than a few moments, seconds up to a minute to respond, she (u/BPDw) will get quite angry at me, but you know, she was already angry to begin with, and she is most time than not, trying to "draw me out", .which never ends well.

FF also said something along the lines of... ."don't entertain silly"... .or to be exact, "don't give her crazy any attention whatsoever."

Thoughts,

Red5

How do you do it Red? I am 70.
She wants divorce and keeps letting me know.  I said move, I'll give her enough $$ to live on and then I'll go forward with divorce.   Says won't move until has signed papers.  We did this before and she moved without signed papers and I paid her monthly.   I cannot imagine living in the same house with her in the middle of divorce.  If I move the landlord will evict her.


She wants a dog.  I use to say no way.  This time I didn't say a thing ( less time to focus on what an ass I am) except make sure it is Ok with landlord.  She left a voicemail yesterday.  Today I get an email from the landlord asking what's with my wife- one email,  3 phone calls and one voicemail.  He said he only deals with me re the rental.  I told her what he wrote me and told her  to leave him alone if she wants the dog.  She went into hysterics crying and yelling that the landlord is a liar and she emailed once and one phone call.   Of course she can't let it go so I think she emailed him telling him what he said was not accurate (probably didn't use those words).  Bye bye dog is my guess

 

Hey... .please think about what you are doing.

Your wife is an adult... .no reason to explain or rescue her from her decisions.

If she wants a divorce, she doesn't need to involve you. 

Seriously... .you could say no... she can still divorce you.  So... there is likely another reason, other than actually wanting a divorce, that she says that stuff.

Can you give some he said she said about the last "divorce talk" you guys had?  I'll try to help you figure out how to "not respond" or to walk away.

FF

When she said again today that she wants a divorce I say she can get one.  She says she cannot afford to pay.  I do have a lot lot more then her. 

I said today if she moves out I will then file for divorce.  She says she wants signed court papers before she moves.

Earlier today when she said get a divorce she said she does'nt love, can't stand me and I said I know.   She said she deserves to be happy and to find a man that loves her.  I agree and she says don't be condescending.  She says you can't like living like this and I agree.

This is like the same b.s. I went through with my STBx. She moved out finally after a few months of this kind of back and forth when she finally became the bread winner. They're always so focused on taking out maximum pain on us that they can't even see when they're getting a better deal than what they are entitled to legally.

J

OK... .so... I have the flavor of this now.  

Let's think about something else.

her:  Blah blah blah I want a divorce, i hate you, you hate me and there is a unicorn in our closet... .oh... .and you a$$crack smells of elderberries

(seriously... .when she starts in on this... I want you to imagine (don't say it) that she says your a$$crack smells of elderberries... .and while she is droning on I want you to make a joke in your head about what it would smell like if she pulled your finger... .)

I'm not kidding... .the goal is for you to get to the end of her short tirade with sort of an "aw shucks" attitude, vice an attitude that says (dang this woman is droning on... I can't stand the sound of that)

I want you to be "light and neutral".

So... she is done and I want you to say

"Babe... .this all makes me sad.  I won't try to control your choices, but I won't talk any further about divorce.  I'd like to talk about trying the new restaurant we have been talking about."  (very matter of fact... .to slightly friendly)

pause

if she wants to talk about something other than divorce... .stay and talk.

If she blathers on about divorce

"I'm not talking about divorce... .I'll check back in 10 minutes"  (walk away)

Nothing further...

Let her flip out... .or not... .or decide to pick her nose.  It's all her choice.  Your choice is to go somewhere else.

After 10 minutes... .bring her a glass of icewater and talk about the weather.  If she brings up divorce... ."no divorce talk, I'll be back in 10 minutes"  

wash rinse repeat

FF

Think about the difference in the conversation where you listen and agree and she drones on, vice the one where you listen a short bit to her (she says her piece) and then you says yours and then you quickly either decide to stay or go.

In the future you will not listen anymore about divorce... it will get shorter and shorter.

We'll cover that later.

FF

First of all I think some of you think she can speak to me without yelling after a minute. If I say “babe” or anything like that I will get yelled at for talking to her in a condescending manner. I just woke up and she is yelling (that’s how she explains things lately) about a comment I made to her yesterday.

Plus yesterday I was in my office and she was badgering while I was trying to work on something.  I asked if she just leave me alone and leave my office.  She refused and continued to badger me.  When I walked out of my office she followed me into another room.  When I went back to my office she followed and I kept asking her to leave.  She wouldn’t.  Finally I went in my bedroom and locked the door.

Later in the day she said she wants an $700,000 cash settlement.  I informed her I would agree to pay her on a monthly basis.  She said ok in months.  I responded that when using that number i didn’t think it was enough money to love on with a 19 or 20 year life expectancy.  Her reply was that I was being condescending.

The good news is the landlord told me last night that he wants to move into the house in April.  He said it had nothing to do with my wife.  I didn’t tell her last night because I figured there wasn’t much she could do then and she would hassle me about it all night.  I will leave her a note with the info when I leave for the day.

I did mention yesterday that if I moved the landlord would not let her stay.  She said she already called the ACLU and he will have to fight them.   She also said I was probably conspiring with the landlord to remove her.  For sure she will think so when she reads my note.  I had thought about it but asking him if I moved and he evicted her could I move back in.  I never did ask him that or anything similar.


As I am writing she comes to my door and says to quit spying on her IPad, it is all being documented.

I'm under no illusions that you saying "Babe... .xyz" will go well... .the first or 10th time you say it.

That's not the key or the goal.  The goal is that you start behaving differently and do so consistently, that will lead to her NOT getting the dysfunctional things the wants (you giving her an audience for yelling)




Can you move this up to about 1 minute of yelling... and then go lock door, or leave house.

You are doing some of the right things, it's taking too long to get there.

Dance analogy.  You and she are "dancing" a dysfunctional dance.  If you start doing the salsa... .and she keeps doing the old dance... .you are good either way.

You like salsa dancing... .so you are doing it (analogous to you like the absence of yelling).

Eventually she will tire of dancing alone and perhaps try the salsa.

Perhaps not... .

I'm more interested in your dance... than hers.

FF

I told her the landlord says we have to move.  Says going to report him and me to IRS.  Šays going to contact my ex wife (things  I said many years ago) and going call or send my daughter a letter.

Says notice to vacate is not notarized and no proof I gave it to her.  Who cares.  I went into my room.  Says now I have to get an attorney.  I said I will when I move and we are not in the same house.

So... she is getting you to listen to her threats.  Am I assuming that her tone of voice was nasty... .and threatening.

Is her name on the lease?

When is the lease up?  Are you month to month now?

Seriously... .my hope is that next time your post says...

"She was threatening to report me to the town dog walking police... .because I use a pink leash... .I left the room... last thing I heard was the astronomy club would no longer talk to me because... .(I couldn't hear that part because I walked away)"

Said another way.

Does your life improve by listening to crazy?  If so... .ask her to share more.  If not... listen less.

I know this is hard... .especially changing habits.

FF

Month to month. Have 60 days.  She was threatening me while I left but had a different tone (calm and upset) when leaving a message asking if I will help find rental and pay her deposit and first months rent.  I have no problem paying.

 
So... .why are you solving her issues if she wants to leave the marriage?

Unless of course you want her to leave the marriage, then I would advise you to file for divorce instead of talking about it and listening to threats and various plans.

The key here is to stop listening to abusive, harsh, nasty talk (sometimes I generally call it blather or nonsense).

If you start responding to her only when she speaks in a pleasant tone, slowly... .slowly things should start to change.

Perhaps time to ask.  Do you know what you want in the r/s or are you still conflicted about it?

FF

I can’t live with the abuse anymore and I don’t deserve it. 

OK... .so you can not live with the abuse (completely under your control) and still stay married and perhaps even "live" at the same residence.  

I agree you don't deserve it.

Anyway... .do you want to leave the marriage or stick around a bit and see if tools and strategies improve things?  I can tell you from what I know of your situation if you give it a solid month of consistent good strategy (that we will help you with), you r/s will likely be a lot calmer.  Only you can figure out if it's enough.

But... .if you're done... .you'r done.  You don't seem done to me... .you seem exasperated (no doubt why), but again... .I'm just getting to know you so help me calibrate this a bit.

FF

If she had or will show some acknowledgement as to her part of our problem and a desire to improve her part, then I would stay.  She can’t see what her involvement is in our relationship.  She won’t go to therapy (always stops) won’t take medication ( either lies or stops after a few days).  I can’t do it alone.  In the past I have gone to a 12 or 10 week NAMI course for family members and went to a drug support group when she was smoking pot all of the time. She just continues as she does (I think stopped smoking pot cuz doesn't want bladder cancer).  Today I had to contact my daughter and ex wife to warn them she may call, email or write a letter.  She has done this in the past.  She said she was going  to report me and landlord to IRS (not sure about what).   I can't do it alone.

   

Hey... .I realize you don't want to do it alone, but I want to assure you that YOU can make radical changes to your relationship, even if your wife doesn't want you to.

Very different than saying you should... .only you can figure that out.

It will take you a solid month of consistency to start to get the feel for this.

My purpose is not to argue with you or prove you are wrong, but to help you evaluate your options.  I remember thinking "effe it"... .this can't be better... .my wife won't this, my wife can't that, she'll never abc... .etc etc.

Once I had a mindset shift to

I won't do this and I will do that, and I'll never do abc and I'll always try to do xyz... .things did get better.  Full disclosure... .I have 8 kids, so a lot of my actions are designed to calm things in my house, vice "my happiness".

My reasons don't change what is or isn't possible.




Hey... .why expend any energy "warning other people" about a crazy person and what they may or may not do.  Especially if they've done it before.

Spend the energy on you... .vice trying to "control" her threats.

Thoughts?

Quick math:  You have 60 days... .right?  This could be a gift... .sort of forcing some choices on both of you.

FF

I contacted them because she tells them things I told her in confidence years ago and she makes things up.

After all these years of a roller coaster and now the dips getting sooner and sooner I don't see her changing.  As the therapist told me when we last saw him years ago "youll never be able to do enough".  It took me 15 years to understand what he meant.

I do feel very  bad for her.  She is scared now as she has never really lived alone. But I don't want to subject myself to the daily abuse and have to take my father's and daughters pictures down around the house (a recent request).  A mutual friend of ours suggested I do it if it would make things better.  I knew it would only make things better for a few hours or a day and then it would be something else. So I did not do it as it would have made me feel bad about myself.   

I dont know specifically what behavior you are suggesting I do.  She doesn't let anything go, bringing it up over and over year after year.  It goes nowhere except raising my blood pressure and stressing me out and I start questioning myself.  Not healthy.  I  don't think she can change her behavior nor does she want to.  I am 70, my time is running out. I don't want to spend it being abused. 

Far

I do appreciate your concern.

We do have to move.  I don't think you are suggesting we move in  together.  Yes, we have 60 days but to her it is day 57.  This will be the third time I have helped her move since Aug 2016.  You may say then don't help.  She is a very low functioning person.  Never worked a lot in her life and when she  did it was part time low stress.  She cries and yells when she has to call Visa or the bank.  Very low frustration level or tolerance.  I do feel bad for her.

Yes, she is a good caring person some of the time but actually evil or threatening more then not.  Two of her friends have told me I couldn't fathom what she writes them or says about me.  One said she herself could not even imagine saying such things about a spouse or friend or a stranger. 

So she makes all these threats to call IRS, daughter, etc and says will cost me $15,000 because she will not sign joint tax return for 2017 then later in day asks  for $1000 I gave her for Xmas (long story).  I also said I will help her buy furniture for wherever she moves (she basically has none of her own). Of course repeatedly calling me ass and F head.  Also scared if she moves and there is no legal papers for support what happens if I am incapacitated.  Wants me to instruct trustee of my trust to pay her living expenses in that scenaio.   All this while I continue to be her verbal punching bag, etc.   At first I feel bad and say ok, then I think what a schmuck I am letting her treat me like crap and then I accommodate her and help her out. 

I want to say no $1000 unless she signs tax return and it does then I will also pay for furniture.  I can afford all this but my self esteem is taking a big hit helping her while I get treated like crap and threatened.  I feel like acting like the ass she says I am so at least she'll have that correct.

Oh also asked me to pay rent, moving expenses and deposit.  That I don’t mind.

So... .if she never tells them this thing you contact them about... .did you "wisely spend" the emotional energy that you spent making the call?

If she tells them without you calling ahead of time, how is that worse than if you hadn't called?

Are then not generally aware of how she is?

FF

Her mouth gets nasty... .your ears get gone... .courtesy of your feet.

Wash, rinse... .repeat

FF

oinoxn,

You seem like a very smart, successful man stuck in a trap he doesn't realize he's in and doesn't know how to get himself out of.

FF is giving you some great advice for wedging yourself out of this mess day-to-day. Basically, he's telling you not to feed the beast by engaging with her. You staying right there and trying to negotiate her into some kind of hoped-for calmer state or to ask her to leave you alone is fuel for her, gasoline that stokes the flames of her anger. His is sensible advice from a lot of experience.

However, I will suggest another way. Play hardball. Retain a divorce lawyer, if you haven't already. Then have her address all her paranoid, delusional self-involved concerns to that lawyer. You know, give her the classic, "speak to my lawyer" talk, and stop agreeing to pay for everything for the rest of her life. This person serves you no good and isn't deserving of any kindnesses from you.

Also, from the sounds of it, you have the means to move out on your own. Start packing up your stuff and get out of there. Begin to enjoy the rest of your life. Every moment spent away from this lunatic is a day closer to paradise.

Sorry to be a little harsh here, but your wife is getting on MY nerves, so I can't imagine how you're feeling. 

J

Furthermore... the point of getting out of the day to day drama, argument... whatever you want to call it is that you need some space to "think strategically"

So... at 70 years old you seem to have some means (money) which likely indicates you have been successful in life.  Unlikely all that "just happened".   There was likely some thought, a plan... and marching forward with that plan.  Some worked out... .some didn't... .you learned... you improved.

I've been where you are... .just trying to solve something... anything... .just one "victory"... .and having this lady (that you love or once loved)... .keep moving the goalpost.

Oh... .poor FF... .you almost had a victory... .if you had only tried harder... .better luck next time... .and now... since no victory... .the a$$chewing will commence again.  In fact... .I have a lovely new sauce to try while chewing your fine piece of a$$... .so succulent.  My new sauce is called... (insert batsh$t crazy theory of the day).

Let me tell you... .I'm ok with nibbling, but chewing it off hurts.  So... .next day I would get up and try again for a victory... .wash rinse... .repeat.  Pretty much ended up where you are.

Don't let a disordered person define victory... just don't.

You need space to think... .I'm still debating if this 60 day thing is a blessing or curse, right now I'm leaning towards blessing because it's going to force you to prioritize.  My hope is you give LESS PRIORITY to the CRAZY and more to sorting out your life. 

Sort out your life... .invite your wife along and go live you life.  She will live hers.  I'm positive she will calm down once she realizes she can't manipulate you anymore.  However, no way to tell "if it will be enough" for you to stay in the relationship. 

Do you get the "mindset"? 

FF

She has contacted them in the past and told them things that was not meant for their ears.  They don’t have to read or hear what she says I have said about them.  Some of which I may have said, some made up and all of it exaggerated.  

They do know she has problems but don’t understand the extent.  Took me many years to understand.

Her mouth gets nasty... .your ears get gone... .courtesy of your feet.

I either leave the house or go in my room.  If in my room she will stand outside my door and yell.  I have nowhere to go at night except my room.  I do leave the house for many hours but there are things I need to do in my office at home that are not being done. Then if I go in my office she will come in and won’t leave.  I have to run around the house trying to keep her from tailing me

Hasn’t she figured out she has the power to get out of thr house by verbal abusing me.  Doesn’t that give some feeling in there of control or accomplishment?

But again... .how specifically... is it better for you to contact your family ahead of time and warn them... .based on your wife's threats?

Perhaps break it down in two situations.

1. If she threatens but doesn't communicate.
2.  If she threatens and communicates.

FF

 
Can you do locked door and noise cancelling headphones while in your office or room?

Perhaps you need to take some work to a hotel for a few days.

The message she needs to get.  I won't listen to yelling (blather, abuse... whatever you want to call it). 

If her goal is to get you out of the house, then she succeeds.  I honestly don't think that is her goal.

Our big picture.  We are not trying to "defeat" their goals, we are trying to set goals for ourselves and attain those.  If that fits in their goals... .great.  If not... .trust that they will handle it well... .or badly... .let them handle it.

Use boundaries to protect your stuff in case they handle it badly.

Last:  It is so important that you control what you expose your ears to.  Let everything else flow from that.  Have you taken you BP when "normal" and then after listening to crazy for 20 minutes?  If not... .you should.  For me it was shocking.

FF

Thanks JJ

I started looking for rentals on line.  She really is a low functioning person. She asked if I would help her look and I will.  The sooner one of us leaves the better.  Of course I won’t miss all this but will feel lonely and empty but from past experiences with her the peace is worth it.

Basically I stay away from her and don’t say a word.  At times, less and less now, she hits a nerve and I respond. 90% of the time I don’t.

 I have  a lawyer from when filed in 2016.  I don’t want to be in same house with her during contested divorce. She gets even worse.  Once one of us leaves I will engage atty again.

I take BP med and forget to check it when she is at it.  I think I can physically feel my BP rising or maybe that is the stress I feel.

I am getting pretty much bulletproof from what she says as I have heard it over and over and over and ... .

?     I am not good with metaphors anymore.

I think the 60 day thing may be a blessing as it is forcing me to do what I could not get myself to do on my own.  As you probably know there are two of her (don’t think she knows) and I do still love one as I don’t relive the past bad things every day, I put them in the past and keep them there.  Maybe that’s my problem.

 
I have no idea what you mean by inviting her.

I want to thank all of you for caring and trying to help me through this.

oinoxn,

I think you are getting a sense of who you are in "BPDland" and we are getting a sense of where you want to go.

Looks like you are above 30 total posts now and you've filled up this thread and made the "all" button go away.  Don't be shocked if mods (moderators) split this thread or otherwise "lock" it and you create (or they create) a new thread for you.

You are doing a great job coming back often and posting and letting us know what you do and don't understand (I'll try to skip metaphors... .:) |iiii)

My suggestion is for you to stick on the conflicted board while you are sorting out interpersonal details of if you talk to her, or walk away, or spend the night in a hotel... .etc etc.

I think it is critical that you go over to the family law board

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

And create an introductory post over there.  That is where you can dive into details of what a POTENTIAL divorce may look like, so you are prepared.

On this board we'll work out the details of the interpersonal stuff.

Make sense?

Thoughts?

FF

So, there is a mindset here. 

You decide how you are going to live your life, lets say you decide you won't live with people that regularly yell.  You take steps towards that life and communicate in words and ACTIONS (actions being more important than words) to your wife that yelling isn't going to be in your life.  No justifications... .no apologies... it is what it is.

Then you say to her (for example... .don't try to actually say this yet) "Babe... .I'm obviously fond of you.  I want to stay together and improve our relationship without yelling coming between us.  Let me know if you will take steps to live a life without yelling.  Understand I'll be taking steps to achieve a life without yelling."

Something like that.  You have invited her along to a future without yelling.  She can choose to come along or not.  You will respect her decision either way.

That's "inviting her along".

Now... .if I have missed something and you don't want her around, even if yelling stopped... .then we should back up some an re-evaluate. 

Make sense?

FF

Thanks FF

Been through divorce before and almost finished one with her before she fired her attorney.


If interested she would  ask what steps.  I don't even know what they are.
You understand there is more then just yelling.  My daughter wants nothing to do with her.  That causes anger that is let out on me. I think she feels in competition with her and that I love her more and will do anything for her but not for my wife. Everything causes anxiety. Tells me everything scares her (hence anxiety). Keeps going on about  and obsessed about what  happens to her if I become incapacitated and can't pay the bills. I was going to put that in my trust but then she started to get worse and tell me to get a divorce so I did not change my trust.  If I had, something else would have taken the place of that complaint.  She does lie and make everything bigger and worse then it is. She constantly complains about me or something. So you see it is not just yelling but that probably effects me the most.

*mod*

The following discussion is now locked for reaching it's maximum posts, It's a worthwhile discussion and a new or similar topic of discussion can be started.