Conflicted in 18 year marriage— need guidance on handling verbal abuse.

[formflier]

If she is yelling and you can hear it, I would put on noise cancelling headphones or go for a walk.  Seriously, listening to that is no good for you. 

Have you checked your blood pressure before yelling and after.  I'm going to put my money on 10-15 increase at least. 

Ignorance is bliss in many ways.

Note:  If she can see you put on the headphones... .that is likely not a good idea.  That's like waving a red cape at a bull.

But if you are in other room and she starts ranting... .do what you need not to listen.

Many pwBPD don't like therapy because there is usually accountability.

FF

[oinoxn]

Jeffrey

Thanks for the laugh.

[formflier]

Thanks for the laugh.

It is important to keep a sense of humor about all of this.  When you think of it... .much of the stuff "they" do is preposterous... .

FF

[Red5]

It is important to keep a sense of humor about all of this.  When you think of it... .much of the stuff "they" do is preposterous... .

FF

FF said... .When her mouth is nasty... your ears are gone!

oinoxn, .I think one of the greatest inventions of our modern times is the "MUTE" button on the remote control... .yes, when those annoying advertisements come on; on the old boob tube, just reach over and SILENCE them !

Love doing that,

I was thinking to myself the other day, which can be a very dangerous pastime, .sometimes I wish I could "mute" my dear sweet wife, .that would be cool you know.

"The television will not work when the ON-OFF switch is in the "O-F-F" position"... ."OFF"... .a beautiful, and peaceful thing... .

As it is, one of the "tools" I use when she starts to communicate to me, in a rather negative tone, or "push tone", is to NOT respond, no, not right straight away, .but to take a moment, and think about what she said to me, and then decide if I am even going to respond to the "push tone"... .always a bit dicey, and one must tread carefully, as to not mishandle the interaction, and then inadvertently "set her off"... .

Sometimes just repeating her question back to her will work (use of sarcasm to disarm)... .

Or responding by asking a completely different question back to her... .to maybe throw her off her intent to "draw me out"... . 

Attempting to change the subject is another good tool, what is the line, blast the BS, .to "baffle" with bravo sierra, flood the communication lines with contradicting, non-important information, to overwhelm with useless information, .to throw out a decoy, deploy a shiny object, .sometimes works... .as I am older, and now hard of hearing, she does know that I may not have heard her at all in the first place, which I do use to my advantage,

Yes, I guess I am hitting the ole' mute button, although if I do take more than a few moments, seconds up to a minute to respond, she (u/BPDw) will get quite angry at me, but you know, she was already angry to begin with, and she is most time than not, trying to "draw me out", .which never ends well.

FF also said something along the lines of... ."don't entertain silly"... .or to be exact, "don't give her crazy any attention whatsoever."

Thoughts,

Red5

[oinoxn]

How do you do it Red? I am 70.
She wants divorce and keeps letting me know.  I said move, I'll give her enough $$ to live on and then I'll go forward with divorce.   Says won't move until has signed papers.  We did this before and she moved without signed papers and I paid her monthly.   I cannot imagine living in the same house with her in the middle of divorce.  If I move the landlord will evict her.


She wants a dog.  I use to say no way.  This time I didn't say a thing ( less time to focus on what an ass I am) except make sure it is Ok with landlord.  She left a voicemail yesterday.  Today I get an email from the landlord asking what's with my wife- one email,  3 phone calls and one voicemail.  He said he only deals with me re the rental.  I told her what he wrote me and told her  to leave him alone if she wants the dog.  She went into hysterics crying and yelling that the landlord is a liar and she emailed once and one phone call.   Of course she can't let it go so I think she emailed him telling him what he said was not accurate (probably didn't use those words).  Bye bye dog is my guess

 

[formflier]

Hey... .please think about what you are doing.

Your wife is an adult... .no reason to explain or rescue her from her decisions.

If she wants a divorce, she doesn't need to involve you. 

Seriously... .you could say no... she can still divorce you.  So... there is likely another reason, other than actually wanting a divorce, that she says that stuff.

Can you give some he said she said about the last "divorce talk" you guys had?  I'll try to help you figure out how to "not respond" or to walk away.

FF

[oinoxn]

When she said again today that she wants a divorce I say she can get one.  She says she cannot afford to pay.  I do have a lot lot more then her. 

I said today if she moves out I will then file for divorce.  She says she wants signed court papers before she moves.

Earlier today when she said get a divorce she said she does'nt love, can't stand me and I said I know.   She said she deserves to be happy and to find a man that loves her.  I agree and she says don't be condescending.  She says you can't like living like this and I agree.

[Jeffree]

This is like the same b.s. I went through with my STBx. She moved out finally after a few months of this kind of back and forth when she finally became the bread winner. They're always so focused on taking out maximum pain on us that they can't even see when they're getting a better deal than what they are entitled to legally.

J

[formflier]

Earlier today when she said get a divorce she said she does'nt love, can't stand me and I said I know.   She said she deserves to be happy and to find a man that loves her.  I agree and she says don't be condescending.  She says you can't like living like this and I agree.

OK... .so... I have the flavor of this now.  

Let's think about something else.

her:  Blah blah blah I want a divorce, i hate you, you hate me and there is a unicorn in our closet... .oh... .and you a$$crack smells of elderberries

(seriously... .when she starts in on this... I want you to imagine (don't say it) that she says your a$$crack smells of elderberries... .and while she is droning on I want you to make a joke in your head about what it would smell like if she pulled your finger... .)

I'm not kidding... .the goal is for you to get to the end of her short tirade with sort of an "aw shucks" attitude, vice an attitude that says (dang this woman is droning on... I can't stand the sound of that)

I want you to be "light and neutral".

So... she is done and I want you to say

"Babe... .this all makes me sad.  I won't try to control your choices, but I won't talk any further about divorce.  I'd like to talk about trying the new restaurant we have been talking about."  (very matter of fact... .to slightly friendly)

pause

if she wants to talk about something other than divorce... .stay and talk.

If she blathers on about divorce

"I'm not talking about divorce... .I'll check back in 10 minutes"  (walk away)

Nothing further...

Let her flip out... .or not... .or decide to pick her nose.  It's all her choice.  Your choice is to go somewhere else.

After 10 minutes... .bring her a glass of icewater and talk about the weather.  If she brings up divorce... ."no divorce talk, I'll be back in 10 minutes"  

wash rinse repeat

FF

[formflier]

Think about the difference in the conversation where you listen and agree and she drones on, vice the one where you listen a short bit to her (she says her piece) and then you says yours and then you quickly either decide to stay or go.

In the future you will not listen anymore about divorce... it will get shorter and shorter.

We'll cover that later.

FF

[oinoxn]

First of all I think some of you think she can speak to me without yelling after a minute. If I say “babe” or anything like that I will get yelled at for talking to her in a condescending manner. I just woke up and she is yelling (that’s how she explains things lately) about a comment I made to her yesterday.

Plus yesterday I was in my office and she was badgering while I was trying to work on something.  I asked if she just leave me alone and leave my office.  She refused and continued to badger me.  When I walked out of my office she followed me into another room.  When I went back to my office she followed and I kept asking her to leave.  She wouldn’t.  Finally I went in my bedroom and locked the door.

Later in the day she said she wants an $700,000 cash settlement.  I informed her I would agree to pay her on a monthly basis.  She said ok in months.  I responded that when using that number i didn’t think it was enough money to love on with a 19 or 20 year life expectancy.  Her reply was that I was being condescending.

The good news is the landlord told me last night that he wants to move into the house in April.  He said it had nothing to do with my wife.  I didn’t tell her last night because I figured there wasn’t much she could do then and she would hassle me about it all night.  I will leave her a note with the info when I leave for the day.

I did mention yesterday that if I moved the landlord would not let her stay.  She said she already called the ACLU and he will have to fight them.   She also said I was probably conspiring with the landlord to remove her.  For sure she will think so when she reads my note.  I had thought about it but asking him if I moved and he evicted her could I move back in.  I never did ask him that or anything similar.


As I am writing she comes to my door and says to quit spying on her IPad, it is all being documented.

[formflier]

I'm under no illusions that you saying "Babe... .xyz" will go well... .the first or 10th time you say it.

That's not the key or the goal.  The goal is that you start behaving differently and do so consistently, that will lead to her NOT getting the dysfunctional things the wants (you giving her an audience for yelling)

  Finally I went in my bedroom and locked the door.
 

Can you move this up to about 1 minute of yelling... and then go lock door, or leave house.

You are doing some of the right things, it's taking too long to get there.

Dance analogy.  You and she are "dancing" a dysfunctional dance.  If you start doing the salsa... .and she keeps doing the old dance... .you are good either way.

You like salsa dancing... .so you are doing it (analogous to you like the absence of yelling).

Eventually she will tire of dancing alone and perhaps try the salsa.

Perhaps not... .

I'm more interested in your dance... than hers.

FF

[oinoxn]

I told her the landlord says we have to move.  Says going to report him and me to IRS.  Šays going to contact my ex wife (things  I said many years ago) and going call or send my daughter a letter.

Says notice to vacate is not notarized and no proof I gave it to her.  Who cares.  I went into my room.  Says now I have to get an attorney.  I said I will when I move and we are not in the same house.

[formflier]

So... she is getting you to listen to her threats.  Am I assuming that her tone of voice was nasty... .and threatening.

Is her name on the lease?

When is the lease up?  Are you month to month now?

Seriously... .my hope is that next time your post says...

"She was threatening to report me to the town dog walking police... .because I use a pink leash... .I left the room... last thing I heard was the astronomy club would no longer talk to me because... .(I couldn't hear that part because I walked away)"

Said another way.

Does your life improve by listening to crazy?  If so... .ask her to share more.  If not... listen less.

I know this is hard... .especially changing habits.

FF

[oinoxn]

Month to month. Have 60 days.  She was threatening me while I left but had a different tone (calm and upset) when leaving a message asking if I will help find rental and pay her deposit and first months rent.  I have no problem paying.

[formflier]

 
So... .why are you solving her issues if she wants to leave the marriage?

Unless of course you want her to leave the marriage, then I would advise you to file for divorce instead of talking about it and listening to threats and various plans.

The key here is to stop listening to abusive, harsh, nasty talk (sometimes I generally call it blather or nonsense).

If you start responding to her only when she speaks in a pleasant tone, slowly... .slowly things should start to change.

Perhaps time to ask.  Do you know what you want in the r/s or are you still conflicted about it?

FF

[oinoxn]

I can’t live with the abuse anymore and I don’t deserve it. 

[formflier]

I can’t live with the abuse anymore and I don’t deserve it.  

OK... .so you can not live with the abuse (completely under your control) and still stay married and perhaps even "live" at the same residence.  

I agree you don't deserve it.

Anyway... .do you want to leave the marriage or stick around a bit and see if tools and strategies improve things?  I can tell you from what I know of your situation if you give it a solid month of consistent good strategy (that we will help you with), you r/s will likely be a lot calmer.  Only you can figure out if it's enough.

But... .if you're done... .you'r done.  You don't seem done to me... .you seem exasperated (no doubt why), but again... .I'm just getting to know you so help me calibrate this a bit.

FF

[oinoxn]

If she had or will show some acknowledgement as to her part of our problem and a desire to improve her part, then I would stay.  She can’t see what her involvement is in our relationship.  She won’t go to therapy (always stops) won’t take medication ( either lies or stops after a few days).  I can’t do it alone.  In the past I have gone to a 12 or 10 week NAMI course for family members and went to a drug support group when she was smoking pot all of the time. She just continues as she does (I think stopped smoking pot cuz doesn't want bladder cancer).  Today I had to contact my daughter and ex wife to warn them she may call, email or write a letter.  She has done this in the past.  She said she was going  to report me and landlord to IRS (not sure about what).   I can't do it alone.

[formflier]

   

Hey... .I realize you don't want to do it alone, but I want to assure you that YOU can make radical changes to your relationship, even if your wife doesn't want you to.

Very different than saying you should... .only you can figure that out.

It will take you a solid month of consistency to start to get the feel for this.

My purpose is not to argue with you or prove you are wrong, but to help you evaluate your options.  I remember thinking "effe it"... .this can't be better... .my wife won't this, my wife can't that, she'll never abc... .etc etc.

Once I had a mindset shift to

I won't do this and I will do that, and I'll never do abc and I'll always try to do xyz... .things did get better.  Full disclosure... .I have 8 kids, so a lot of my actions are designed to calm things in my house, vice "my happiness".

My reasons don't change what is or isn't possible.

  I can’t do it alone.  

 Today I had to contact my daughter and ex wife to warn them she may call, email or write a letter. 

  I can't do it alone.

Hey... .why expend any energy "warning other people" about a crazy person and what they may or may not do.  Especially if they've done it before.

Spend the energy on you... .vice trying to "control" her threats.

Thoughts?

Quick math:  You have 60 days... .right?  This could be a gift... .sort of forcing some choices on both of you.

FF

[oinoxn]

I contacted them because she tells them things I told her in confidence years ago and she makes things up.

After all these years of a roller coaster and now the dips getting sooner and sooner I don't see her changing.  As the therapist told me when we last saw him years ago "youll never be able to do enough".  It took me 15 years to understand what he meant.

I do feel very  bad for her.  She is scared now as she has never really lived alone. But I don't want to subject myself to the daily abuse and have to take my father's and daughters pictures down around the house (a recent request).  A mutual friend of ours suggested I do it if it would make things better.  I knew it would only make things better for a few hours or a day and then it would be something else. So I did not do it as it would have made me feel bad about myself.   

I dont know specifically what behavior you are suggesting I do.  She doesn't let anything go, bringing it up over and over year after year.  It goes nowhere except raising my blood pressure and stressing me out and I start questioning myself.  Not healthy.  I  don't think she can change her behavior nor does she want to.  I am 70, my time is running out. I don't want to spend it being abused. 

[oinoxn]

Far

I do appreciate your concern.

We do have to move.  I don't think you are suggesting we move in  together.  Yes, we have 60 days but to her it is day 57.  This will be the third time I have helped her move since Aug 2016.  You may say then don't help.  She is a very low functioning person.  Never worked a lot in her life and when she  did it was part time low stress.  She cries and yells when she has to call Visa or the bank.  Very low frustration level or tolerance.  I do feel bad for her.

Yes, she is a good caring person some of the time but actually evil or threatening more then not.  Two of her friends have told me I couldn't fathom what she writes them or says about me.  One said she herself could not even imagine saying such things about a spouse or friend or a stranger. 

[oinoxn]

So she makes all these threats to call IRS, daughter, etc and says will cost me $15,000 because she will not sign joint tax return for 2017 then later in day asks  for $1000 I gave her for Xmas (long story).  I also said I will help her buy furniture for wherever she moves (she basically has none of her own). Of course repeatedly calling me ass and F head.  Also scared if she moves and there is no legal papers for support what happens if I am incapacitated.  Wants me to instruct trustee of my trust to pay her living expenses in that scenaio.   All this while I continue to be her verbal punching bag, etc.   At first I feel bad and say ok, then I think what a schmuck I am letting her treat me like crap and then I accommodate her and help her out. 

I want to say no $1000 unless she signs tax return and it does then I will also pay for furniture.  I can afford all this but my self esteem is taking a big hit helping her while I get treated like crap and threatened.  I feel like acting like the ass she says I am so at least she'll have that correct.

[oinoxn]

Oh also asked me to pay rent, moving expenses and deposit.  That I don’t mind.

[formflier]

I contacted them because she tells them things I told her in confidence years ago and she makes things up.
 

So... .if she never tells them this thing you contact them about... .did you "wisely spend" the emotional energy that you spent making the call?

If she tells them without you calling ahead of time, how is that worse than if you hadn't called?

Are then not generally aware of how she is?

FF

[formflier]

I dont know specifically what behavior you are suggesting I do.  

Her mouth gets nasty... .your ears get gone... .courtesy of your feet.

Wash, rinse... .repeat

FF

[Jeffree]

oinoxn,

You seem like a very smart, successful man stuck in a trap he doesn't realize he's in and doesn't know how to get himself out of.

FF is giving you some great advice for wedging yourself out of this mess day-to-day. Basically, he's telling you not to feed the beast by engaging with her. You staying right there and trying to negotiate her into some kind of hoped-for calmer state or to ask her to leave you alone is fuel for her, gasoline that stokes the flames of her anger. His is sensible advice from a lot of experience.

However, I will suggest another way. Play hardball. Retain a divorce lawyer, if you haven't already. Then have her address all her paranoid, delusional self-involved concerns to that lawyer. You know, give her the classic, "speak to my lawyer" talk, and stop agreeing to pay for everything for the rest of her life. This person serves you no good and isn't deserving of any kindnesses from you.

Also, from the sounds of it, you have the means to move out on your own. Start packing up your stuff and get out of there. Begin to enjoy the rest of your life. Every moment spent away from this lunatic is a day closer to paradise.

Sorry to be a little harsh here, but your wife is getting on MY nerves, so I can't imagine how you're feeling. 

J

[formflier]

FF is giving you some great advice for wedging yourself out of this mess day-to-day. Basically, he's telling you not to feed the beast by engaging with her. You staying right there and trying to negotiate her into some kind of hoped-for calmer state or to ask her to leave you alone is fuel for her, gasoline that stokes the flames of her anger. His is sensible advice from a lot of experience.
 

Furthermore... the point of getting out of the day to day drama, argument... whatever you want to call it is that you need some space to "think strategically"

So... at 70 years old you seem to have some means (money) which likely indicates you have been successful in life.  Unlikely all that "just happened".   There was likely some thought, a plan... and marching forward with that plan.  Some worked out... .some didn't... .you learned... you improved.

I've been where you are... .just trying to solve something... anything... .just one "victory"... .and having this lady (that you love or once loved)... .keep moving the goalpost.

Oh... .poor FF... .you almost had a victory... .if you had only tried harder... .better luck next time... .and now... since no victory... .the a$$chewing will commence again.  In fact... .I have a lovely new sauce to try while chewing your fine piece of a$$... .so succulent.  My new sauce is called... (insert batsh$t crazy theory of the day).

Let me tell you... .I'm ok with nibbling, but chewing it off hurts.  So... .next day I would get up and try again for a victory... .wash rinse... .repeat.  Pretty much ended up where you are.

Don't let a disordered person define victory... just don't.

You need space to think... .I'm still debating if this 60 day thing is a blessing or curse, right now I'm leaning towards blessing because it's going to force you to prioritize.  My hope is you give LESS PRIORITY to the CRAZY and more to sorting out your life. 

Sort out your life... .invite your wife along and go live you life.  She will live hers.  I'm positive she will calm down once she realizes she can't manipulate you anymore.  However, no way to tell "if it will be enough" for you to stay in the relationship. 

Do you get the "mindset"? 

FF

[oinoxn]

  So... .if she never tells them this thing you contact them about... .did you "wisely spend" the emotional energy that you spent making the call?

If she tells them without you calling ahead of time, how is that worse than if you hadn't called?

She has contacted them in the past and told them things that was not meant for their ears.  They don’t have to read or hear what she says I have said about them.  Some of which I may have said, some made up and all of it exaggerated.  

They do know she has problems but don’t understand the extent.  Took me many years to understand.

[oinoxn]

Her mouth gets nasty... .your ears get gone... .courtesy of your feet.

I either leave the house or go in my room.  If in my room she will stand outside my door and yell.  I have nowhere to go at night except my room.  I do leave the house for many hours but there are things I need to do in my office at home that are not being done. Then if I go in my office she will come in and won’t leave.  I have to run around the house trying to keep her from tailing me

Hasn’t she figured out she has the power to get out of thr house by verbal abusing me.  Doesn’t that give some feeling in there of control or accomplishment?