BPDFamily.com

Hello everyone... .boy am I ready for this.

I feel like I just woke up from the strangest dream I've ever had and realized that I'm in a mosh pit at a thrash metal show.  Now I'm looking for the safety of the edge but I can't quite get there.

Let me tell you about my wife.  Oh, you probably already know all about her -- she has BPD (diagnosed twice or three times or never, depending on when I ask her).  What you may or may not know is that she is the most beautiful, caring, intelligent, lovely person I have ever met.  I sat in the kitchen with her the other day while she saved someone's life over the phone -- something she does with startling regularity.  She has empathy like nobody I've ever seen.  She has style and grace.  She is the most interesting person anyone has ever met... .and that's a good thing because she talks nonstop :)

And... she had lived alone for 30 years before I met her.  She moved in with me about a year ago and... .honestly I had no idea what was happening.  The past year is a blur.  Moreover *SHE* had no idea what was happening.  She knew she was "passionate", but because she lived alone she had not experienced the majority of the BPD symptoms until she met me.  She is currently waffling between the ideas that there is something seriously wrong with me since she never had the problem before, or she just can't live with anyone.  Bottom line is that she can't help how she behaves and she hates herself for it.  And I am tired of trying to thread the needle.  I always miss no matter how much I practice :)

After spending a lot of time on this site and others reading about BPD, this whole thing has started to make some sense.  Furthermore, I understand (and believe to my core) that it is up to me to make changes.  I am a recovering alcoholic -- been in the rooms since 2002 -- so I know all about changing myself and not others.  My favorite version of the serenity prayer is:  God help me accept the people I cannot change, the courage to change the one I can, and the wisdom to know it's me".

Let me make this clear:  I want this woman in my life.  I want her now and I want her forever.  I need to learn how to keep the two of us at the edge of the mosh pit rather than right in the center... .and that is what I am here to do.  I won't go into details yet, but the whole thing is going to require a lot of learning for me.  I'm not even quite sure how to go about setting boundaries, for example.  I've read a bunch about it, but... .um... .HOW?  I'll get there.  On the plus side, what I have learned so far has given me a degree of acceptance while my wife is raging, and that really helps me to not do things that make it worse, which I was definitely doing for a long time.

Thank you so much to the people who post here.  I have already learned so much from you.

Hi engineer and welcome!   

Kudos to you for putting the ball in your own court regarding making changes. I'm sure your experience as a recovering alcoholic has already given you many skills in this regard. Suggest you continue studying the skills in the box to the right and engage with other posters here for more context on your own situation.

You said you've developed a degree of acceptance for some of your wife's behaviors but you're also learning to set boundaries. What are some behaviors you think cross the line and how have you dealt with them thus far?

All the best,
~ROE

 
Hi engineer! So glad you found us!

I love that version of the serenity prayer! I am in recovery as well. It sounds like you have a good foundation to start building from in terms of realizing that you can only change you and not someone else. This site can be incredibly empowering in terms of knowledge, skills, workshops, and reading about others' experience, strength and hope. Keep posting, we are listening and we are glad you are here!

Blessings and peace to you,

I Am Redeemed

Hello, engineer:

I just wanted to join the others in welcoming you to bpdfamily. You've probably lurked for a while and now have joined. That's wonderful because you have found the best place in the world for understanding, compassion, and education as it relates to BPD.

I'm sorry for what you're going through but also glad that you have found a community where many of us have been through similar experiences, and we can learn from each other.

I have found the site articles on setting boundaries very helpful.

Please tell us more when you feel comfortable doing so, and let us know what kind of help and support you hope to get here.


-Speck

Thank you so much for the welcomes!  I am really happy to be here.

Yesterday I was a little vague about asking for specific help because every time I started to think about the advice I would like to seek my brain flooded with about 1000 little every day problems I can't seem to work through.  I think the right approach for me is to try to solve one problem at a time.  I am, indeed, an engineer as my handle suggests, so my rules of problem solving are 1) address one problem at a time, and 2) change one thing at a time.

As I thought things through, I settled on one problem -- and it is the one that seems to cause me the most unnecessary stress as I run through every day:  I cannot introduce new topics/ideas/plans to my wife without an explosion.

For example, today I need to extend our rental car for another month (why there is a rental car when we have other perfectly good vehicles is a long story for another day).  Simple, right?  Call the rental company and give them my credit card info.  Haha, nope.  I instantly find myself in a tangle:

 - call and re-rent car myself --> explosion because I am "doing things on my own"
 - tell wife we need to re-rent car -->
        explosion because she's stressed already and why do I refuse to consider her feelings
        or, I didn't tell her about it in the right order and why do I refuse to consider her feelings
        or, I didn't tell her at the right time (there is no right time) and why don't I think
 - arrange time to talk with her about car -->
        demand to talk about it immediately and then explosion for incomprehensible reasons
 - allow wife to think of the car on her own -->
        explosion because she has to think of everything herself and why can't I initiate... .
        this explosion is usually the least intense of the choices so it is the one I find myself
        hoping for.

The *only* way I have been able to talk about things with her is when she brings up "the list".  She writes a list of things she needs to do and a list of things we need to do.  She goes over her list every day.  It's an extremely helpful habit, I think.  SOMETIMES... .only sometimes... .she goes over the list with me.  When she does that, if I am on my toes and I pick my times just right, I can add things to the list without an explosion.  I find she goes through the list with me once every couple of weeks.  She almost did last night.

And maybe I have just answered my own question (interesting how writing it helps me see things).   Next time she goes through the list with me, I will tell her how helpful that is.  I will tell her it really helps me to get my disorganized brain (eye roll, I know) focused.  That's risky, because helping me with all my (imaginary) problems motivates her to actually do something, but it also tends to make her resentful about yet another thing she has to "help" me with.  Probably a worthwhile risk.  If she will go through the list with me every night rather than making it a rare surprise event, then it can become a reliable way for me to communicate to her the things we need to do.

That doesn't help me with the rental car problem today... .but perhaps when we pay bills tonight (why we have to pay bills together is beyond me, but I will address that later) she will see the entry for the rental car and it will jog her memory.  I will take "why didn't you think of this?" flak, but that's usually about the best outcome I can hope for, as I said above.

Hello ROE!

So... .there are two sets of behaviors that are hard to deal with 1) unintentional setting of "traps" -- I find myself in catch-22 situations all the time, and 2) the rage.

She is actually working on the rage herself at the moment.  I'm pretty proud of her for what she is doing right now.  I'm setting boundaries aside for a little while... .BUT the rage is where I would like to set them.

The typical pattern of the rage is:
I step on an invisible rake
She responds with derision and belittlement in a raised voice
She starts asking unanswerable questions
I try VERY hard to not defend myself, and not to reason with her, but I do not succeed very well -- I'm working on that.  I attempt to validate instead, but she always responds "that is such BS" when I attempt to validate.  So... .I need to work on that too.
Her voice gets louder and louder to the point where she is literally screaming, while she continues to bait me.
She starts throwing very hurtful insults, and this is where the relationship threats start.
Then she starts asking me why I continuously push her and will not leave her alone when she has clearly asked me to (she has not, prior this point, asked me to leave her alone, fwiw), and this is my first chance to exit the room and allow her to calm down.

The boundary I would like to set is:  The instant she raises her voice I will leave the room.  Because... .I know that if I can leave the room then she WILL calm down and apologise.  That will be the end of the rage.

Unfortunately, leaving the room at any point before she suggests it results in the worst rage she is capable of.  Much worse than if I just stay in the room and keep my composure while she unloads at me.

I am reading as much as I can on this, and I understand that I need to set the boundary while she is calm and ride out the "extinction burst" when I follow through on the boundary.  My problem is that she is, for good reason, fairly fragile at the moment and might actually not be able to ride out the burst with me.  Not giving her excuses, here... .she is actually in a fragile state due to real health issues.  I would like to enact the boundary-setting on this when she is in a better frame of mind and better state of health.  And, as I said, she is working on the rage herself and I don't want to undermine her efforts.

Couple of thoughts to throw into the mix

BPD empathy. This is often not what it seems in the same way you think of empathy. Most people know they are individuals, and can imagine the feelings of others, but they still know it is not them. pwBPD often have a weak sense of self, and at times show what seems like high levels of empathy, the difference is they are absorbing the other persons issues as though they are their own hence they can get overly affected. Some put up a total block to this, others let it all in and it can consume them. Or they can alternatively take on the. role of rescuer, as that is who they would like to be. They role play the rescuer that they want someone else to be to them. They can in fact turn the other persons mole hills into mountains, which is no help at all

There a lot of complex reactions to "empathy" but it is rarely in the same way 'nons" feel it... From non to over the top.

Your analogy re the mosh pit. You want to get to the side because you cant cope with out of control chaos. A pwBPD has lived all their life in the mosh pit, this is their normal, their comfort zone. Take them out of that zone and you can bet your bottom dollar they will jump right back into it. Chaos is relative to its environment, surround it with calm and it seems intensified, under the spotlight as to who is responsible for it. The perception of ownership of a specific chaos diminishes when surrounded by chaos. This is also one reason they create chaos in your life as that makes them feel "normal"

pwBPD often want people to rescue them, it validates their victimhood. Note I say "rescue" as in  "the process of", they dont want to be rescued as in "an end product". They want the process to continue indefinitely so the validation continues. Hence the goal post constantly move, and one drama morphs into the next

So what does this mean for you going forward. You need to be at the side of the mosh pit, while letting them be in the centre of it, but with the knowledge that you are there at the edges supporting, and not judging, them.

You cannot make them be like you, nor can you allow them to make you be like them

I picked up on this thread because of the mention of boundaries. 

I describe boundaries as my #1 tool that contributed to the stability in my relationship.  I'll add "consistent boundaries" as a critical modifier there.  I was very lucky that early on, many senior members made that point effectively to me and I was ready for my pwBPD to "try to get me back in line".  I held... the boundary held.

I'm curious about your reasoning to set boundaries aside for a while.

I would implore you to keep them set aside until you are ready to leave them in place.  Again... be consistent.

Last... look at what I highlighted from Waverider.  There are lots of boundaries there. 

Let's assume that is you.

You are unapologetically "judging" for yourself where you need to be and you are doing that (side of pit).

At the same time you are using boundaries to avoid judging others (outside your boundaries).

A classic BPD trick is the "if you don't agree and join me you are judging me" manipulation.  Don't get involved in that.  Perhaps once say you see it different, then kind of a shoulder shrug and move along. 

Let them be in "their pit" and use their reasoning... .and you use theirs.  I'm convinced over time it is calming to them to know you are there and that you don't join in the crazy.

FF

Hi engineer and thanks for elaborating.


This is a unique situation. I don't know quite how to advise you best on this since there's a physical health component. I'll only say that everyone's situation is different and the usual advice of putting a hold on the discussion until the pwBPD settles down might not work for everyone. I tried it and it really didn't work for me;' she would chase me wherever I went. So I instead tried validation and remembering I didn't have to answer everything she said. It was my choice.

I'll also say that you are doing a ton of work to accommodate her illness. That's noble and shows your level of empathy and EQ. But please don't commit too much of your emotional energy to her before you've made sure your own tank is full. What are you doing to take care of and protect yourself?

~ROE

Hello, Engineer:

How are things going today?


-Speck

Today is good so far.  My wife is becoming a little more self-aware.  I had a post-surgery appointment this morning and she came with me.  For the first time, I think, EVER, we made it out of the house without issue and on time.  After trapping herself in the house for most of the past 6 months, she has made some changes to allow her to make it through her shower without a panic attack so we can actually get her out of the house on occasion.

We shall see what the day brings.  Normally she goes a little nonlinear between 4 and 6 pm because she hasn't taken a shower yet and for some reason I can't come home until she is showered and dressed... .but she won't tell me what she needs... .she wants me to tell her I am staying at work late for some reason unrelated to her.  That's happened enough times (almost every day for the past year) that I can generally guess what's going on and I don't step in any of the bear traps.

But, as I said, progress has been made.  Today she is showered already (before 6pm!) and it was a good experience for her, so maybe she will stop being so afraid of the shower.

And... .yeah, I'm all about complaining about the BPD craziness, but I gotta tell you the good stuff too.  I had surgery a couple of weeks ago.  My first surgery ever... .so, I was just a touch terrified.  She braved the shower panic (yes, I got screamed at, but that's neither here nor there) and got herself together and came with me and held my hand through the procedure (I had to be awake) and even managed not to pass out even though I could clearly see she was about to.  She really came through for me.

Hey, engineer!

Okay. Sounds like things are progressing well enough... .some give, some take. That's good. You haven't set off any bear traps, it seems... .

... .but do you have a plan for when you do finally step on one?

I must have missed the explanation about the fear/anxiety your wife has surrounding her daily shower?  If you don't mind my asking, what is all that about?



Yes, if you have positive stuff to report, please do! It all part of the process, and it's great to hear of happy resolutions/solutions to things.


-Speck

So... .the shower, oh my.

I am convinced there is more about the shower than I know.  But, the relevant panic attack triggers I know about are claustrophobia, body dysmorphia and an inability to handle temperature changes.

When we have to go somewhere she waits until the *last possible minute* to get in the shower, and even if she doesn't have any of the above issues, she panics because she runs out of time.

You know... .I am feeling pretty proud of us.  We have managed to work through the shower thing for the most part.  Today was really smooth.  Hopefully the improvements will stick.

My wife has the shower issues too, talks about it for hours first, then runs out of time. The delaying about having shower means when she has one that is the event for the day, there is no time left for anything else and she can't do anything before one as she is "about to have a shower".

When she was younger she would shower multiple times a day  to "scrub the badness out". She was diagnised OCD at the time because of it. Doesn't have that motivation now but I think there is a lingering association with it being a big deal.

Most likely a childhood anxiety association involved.

We are just scratching the surface of the issues she is dealing with.  And, no, she is not seeking treatment at the moment.  She talks about wanting to, and then she talks herself out of it.  I'm trying to keep it in the realm of "her idea" with gentle encouragement.  She has been told about her BPD, and received counseling about 20 years ago, but I think she would prefer to believe she has dissociative identity disorder.  And, oh for sure, her "alter" is a different person... .different mannerisms, different beliefs, different desires... .her face even looks different, and, my wife types about 90 words per minute and her "alter" hunts and pecks.  But I think it's a dissociative state rather than a full alternate personality.

*I* am in counseling for sure :)  I see my counselor again tomorrow.  My counselor agrees with what I have said above, but, obviously, would really like it if I could get my wife to come in for counseling herself.

So... .what have I tried... .besides everything :)  Honestly the thing I've tried that works best is working on myself.  I had a health issue (fixed by the surgery above) that was causing my cortisol and blood pressure to run out of control.  With that going on it was *very* hard to stay calm when she went on a rampage.  Within a day of my surgery my blood pressure went right down and my cortisol level went down to sort of normal, and now I have more "room" to handle her outbursts.  It's hard to keep your brain firing on all cylinders when you're in fight-or-flight mode before the fight even starts.  Also I found that a number of my learned conflict responses were seriously unhelpful; i.e. I had some bad behaviors as well.  For example, reacting sarcastically when I felt backed into a corner, or using an apology as a manipulation tool.  I worked with my counselor on those to get to the root of why I do it so I could erase those from my repertoire.  Also, focusing more on my recovery -- going to AA meetings and talking with my sponsor -- helps quite a bit.  When I am living with my own ego and insecurity it is a lot harder to find acceptance enough to help her deal with her issues.

What didn't work:  logic.  Stop logic-ing 'cause this is not logical.  When I think about what's going on and trying to make sense of it I start getting more upset and then I walk in to the room with a bad attitude, and that is just going to set her off.

Hey... .turns out this whole thing is good for me.  I'm learning a lot about myself :)  And since my wife is allergic to everything our diet is very simple and I've lost a lot of weight.

You know what... .I am going to sum it up like this:  The most fundamental thing I can do to make this work is to keep my attitude positive.

Oh oh oh! YES!

My Saturday and Sunday schedule:

 - review the plans for the day with my wife
 - sit at the kitchen table while she tells me "I'm getting in the shower in 5 minutes" every half an hour... .can't leave the room and do something else because we have plans and she is JUST about to get in the shower!
 - deal with her meltdown when she realizes it's dinner time and she hasn't had a shower yet.
 - make new plans to have an "evening for us"
 - watch her scurry around the house getting distracted by one thing after another
 - deal with another meltdown because it's way past bedtime and we didn't get our evening.

Definitely childhood issues involved in the shower for her.  I hadn't thought about the scrubbing of the badness... .I will run that up the flagpole when I get home.  She won't salute but if she screams we may have hit on something.

Wow thank you.  The shower thing is SO bizarre and it made me quite ecstatic to read your post :)

Hello engineer!

Okay. Thank you for walking us through the shower thing. Yes, I have to agree with you, it is a little bizarre, but it seems as though you find the situation one in which you can learn and grow as well. So, that is definitely a plus. I imagine that logic does NOT work when dealing with your wife's shower phobia, so you must have found a way to put it into the realm of her issue while remaining supportive, which I think is great.

Also, keeping up with your AA meetings and T sessions gives you plenty to work on, yourself. And we all need support when dealing with pwBPD. So, good on you!


-Speck

Good for you, engineer. That attitude will carry you through and lead to growth you never expected.

What I'm going through right now is the hardest thing I have ever been through in a less than easy life, but I also know its been long in coming. I needed this challenge to break a lifetime pattern of codependency, allowing myself to be bullied, and an overall lack of self-love. After this I feel as though there is nothing in the world that can bring me down.

Keep up the good work!  |iiii

~ROE

If you didn't have to live it then it would make a very successful sitcom... :), that runs for many seasons due to the wealth of material available

Heh, yes... .if I could achieve a little more detachment the entertainment value would be off the charts.

I managed that at work... .In the early 2000s I worked for 6.5 years at a company that everyone has heard of... .You probably have received many of their free CDs in the mail... .  I used to get SO ANGRY at work because of all the astoundingly stupid decisions being made at all levels of management.  Then one day something snapped in my head and all the stuff that made me angry started to make me laugh instead.  My stress level went down to zero and I started enjoying work.  To this day I tell people I come to work for entertainment.

Now if I could only do that at home... .heh, it would probably fix everything :)  Or, at least, I would be a lot happier.

Don't mind me, I just feel like complaining.  Feel free to tune out for the next several paragraphs. :)

So, I have been applying all the things I've learned here and from my counselor.  Things with my wife improved dramatically when I stopped feeding her fire.  But the fire did not go out completely.  The rages have gone from daily to about weekly.  One good thing about this is that I can actually look back and analyze what happened since my head isn't perpetually spinning anymore.  The down side is that I am starting to really resent the hell I have been through for the past year.  I didn't expect that... .I guess when I was in full-time crisis mode I was just dealing with the crisis, and now... .I'm fairly angry.  Oh well, that is a problem for another day.  At least one person in this relationship knows how to deal with anger.  I discovered when I was a kid that any activity that makes my ears ring will successfully dissipate anger for me. :)  OH!  See?  I am missing an opportunity here -- I should use this experience as an opportunity to really improve my skills at the drums.  heh.

Anyway... .oh yeah, I was complaining.  So things have been better but yesterday was *most defiinitely* not better.  She started first thing in the morning.  We had plans.  She didn't want to execute the plans... .but she couldn't *possibly* just say "I don't want to do that anymore" because then it would be her fault we didn't do what we said we were going to do.  So, she set out to cause me to upset her like she usually does, with passive-aggressive statements.  Everything out of her mouth was passive-aggressive.  I recognized it immediately.  I even chuckled to myself "I see what you're doing" and took it in stride, not reacting... .validating what was valid, etc.  She kept at it.  And at it.  And at it... .and usually it works and she can blame me for ruining our plans, but not this time.  Finally that wasn't working so she changed strategy.  She was not feeling well so she projected that *I* wasn't feeling well and suggested I rest for the day.  Now, I should have accepted this and agreed with her.  It was really a bone she was throwing me.  But no, I just figured she didn't feel well so we weren't going to do what we said and I should do something else, which I did.  That wasn't good enough because in her mind she was still the one messing up our plans (seriously how ridiculous -- she wasn't feeling well... .that is PLENTY of reason to change plans and I would never think a thing of it).  Anyway, her new strategy didn't work.  So, she changed tactics again, back to trying to upset me, this time with character assassination.  Man, she got really close... .I almost lost my cool.

My mistake was when she FINALLY admitted that she didn't feel well.  She said "I'm sorry I've been meandering today.  I don't feel well and I'm not sure I want to do what we said".  I thought "Finally! Now we are getting somewhere."  and I said "Oh I knew you weren't feeling well, that's why i wasn't pushing us to go out today".  Well... .that was all she needed.  "OH, SO YOU DECIDE ALL BY YOURSELF HOW SOMEONE ELSE IS FEELING AND MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEM?"... .Within minutes she was screaming at the top of her lungs, calling me every name in the book, telling me to pack my bags and get out, and all the rest.  I kept my cool as best I could (and really, i need to get better at keeping my cool when she is screaming at me for no reason).  I finally got her to calm down by leaving the room to "pack" (read: lay on the bed and play games on my phone for 20 minutes).  She stopped screaming but she was sullen and very touchy for the rest of the day.

This morning she woke up, yelled at me, and got out of bed.  I took a shower.  When I got out of the shower she was all flowers and butterflies like nothing happened... .and that's when she started her OTHER infuriating habit... .constant sexual innuendo.  So... .today will be sexual innuendo all day right up until we get into bed with her all hot and heavy, at which point either a) I touch her and she will start screaming at me, or b) I don't touch her and she will roll over and go to sleep and blame me tomorrow for not initiating anything.

ok, complaint over.  We now resume somewhat more useful content :)

Hi engineer, thanks for checking in and this most certainly is "useful content". It gives us a clearer picture of how life is for you recently. And it's good to hear from you.  *)

Not a stranger to plans erupting the hands of a pwBPD and confusing sexual signals, brother. That's a rough 24 hours.   

Can you share a bit about how you've stopped feeding her fire? Daily to weekly is big progress.

Yrs,
ROE

#1 -- Cleaning my own side of the street.  I had some questionable communication habits that never caused a problem in normal relationships but are real problems dealing with my wife.  For example, when I felt trapped with no ability to be heard I would respond sarcastically.  Or, I would mutter under my breath to myself.  Those are bads habits across the board.  This is really the most effective change.

#2 -- Not taking offense, even when offense is clearly meant.  This helps a lot, but I really have to pay attention.  She likes to criticise me for minor things, but she words her criticisms in such a way that an imaginary third party would not recognize she is being critical... .And she gets on a roll... .one criticism after another for hours.  If I actually respond to the criticism at any point we're off to the races.

#3 -- Avoiding traps.  Instead of saying "Hey love, would you mind pulling the shower curtain out of the shower when you're done so it can dry?" like a normal person, she would say "Every day I go upstairs and the shower curtain is still in the tub."  Not offensive, really, but then if I say "ok, i will make sure I pull it out from now on" she gets angry and says "why do you always think everything is about you?  Man I have a hard time avoiding this.

#4 -- Being quiet when she talks.  You can't have a normal back-and-forth conversation.  You have to sit quietly and look directly at her and most definitely NOT MOVE while she is talking.  If I get caught up in what she is saying I sometimes forget and try to respond.  Bad move.  Now... .all this makes sense if someone has something important to say and they spend five minutes talking about it.  Fine.  But she talks continuously.  I have clocked her up to 16 hours at a stretch -- no kidding.  Can't move.  Can't respond.  Can't even get up to pee.  She just goes and goes and goes.  If you try to end the conversation she says ":)o you have another two minutes?" and keeps going.  And then at some point she looks at the clock and gets angry at me because I didn't "take initiative" that day and instead just sat in the kitchen with her.  Sigh.  But as long as I sit quietly and listen she is happy for the most part, and doing anything else sparks a rage.

#5 -- Giving her space.  It took me a long time to figure this out.  She has very specific (and changing, of course, but I see the pattern a little more clearly now) requirements for space.  It's not about proximity... .it's actually really hard to describe.  It has a lot to do with her position relative to things in the room.  Like if she is on one side of the room with her back to the wall and there is a window to her right then I can approach her from the left.  If there is no window on her right then I cannot approach her from the left.  I cannot move if I am in her peripheral vision... .  I cannot switch what side of her I am walking on... .  I cannot walk with her but not be in her visual field... .  it goes on and on.

#6 -- Changing my speech habits.  I tend to speak euphemistically, playfully, creatively.  I make up words.  I use the language in creative ways.  I automatically adjust this based on the language capability of the person I'm talking to.  Obviously I don't speak creatively when I'm talking to everyone, but when I am speaking to an intelligent person I have fun with it.  I have never in my life had trouble communicating with anyone.  Ever.  Until I met her.  Somehow my automatic adjustment mis-estimates her.  She is *BAFFLED* by my speech... .and I have really had to start paying attention to what I say.  She has an IQ of 160 but I have to speak to her as if she has an IQ of half that.  And the strangest part is that her speech is beautiful -- she is a writer for crying out loud.  I think that's why my adjustment is off.  Anyone else who spoke like her would easily handle all the speech creativity I can muster.  But nope, it makes her very upset.

I could go on listing things I am changing for a long time.  I'm working on a lot of stuff.  I think to some extent the reason we are down to rages once a week and not less often than that is because I'm still practicing a lot of these things.  It was a lot of changes at once.

Thanks for sharing, engineer. That's a lot of initiative and I admire the work you've done.

What I want to ask you is, though the rages have decreased in frequency, has your stress decreased in turn?There is a difference between changing annoying habits out of love for someone and bending over to accommodate irrational needs. We of course want to avoid triggers and listen and communicate better, but the space thing sounds like a bit too much for me.

ROE

Yes *absolutely* my stress has decreased.  The space thing is bizarre, but it got a lot easier with practice.  I think there are three things going on

 -- She is claustrophobic
 -- She has strange eye issues that necessitated surgery when she was younger.  I have observed that her visual perception of almost everything is different from mine, particularly as it relates to motion.
 -- She is Australian, and so personal space is... .different... .for her.

I have come to the conclusion that her mother also had BPD traits.  She pinned most of her childhood drama on her dad, but it sure looks to me like her mother was the driver.  Unfortunately, through her process of accepting her childhood (which she did before I met her) she has classified her parents' behaviors as "completely normal", and so she believes her excessive emotional volatility and irrationality is normal and anything else is very uncomfortable for her.

Good to hear and sorry if thought the space thing was too much. I've gotten into the habit of writing off everything my wife reacts to as because of the BPD, but last night I tried a bit harder on how she feels about my snoring. I thought she was just being hyper-reactive to sound and that it wasn't a big thing but then she played me a recording she'd made and wow, I need to see a doctor because I sound like a demogorg. I also thought she was shaking me awake too fiercely when I snored but it turned out it was because gentle poking did nothing to wake me up.

Have you in any way expressed to her that her excessive emotional volatility is not normal? I think my wife is aware her behaviors are a little over the top but that they still fall into the normal range.

~ROE   

She has expressed it herself... .never consistently.  Sometimes it's "I've always had this rage, it's part of me and I am working on it."  Sometimes it's "I've always been such a happy person, always positive and in a great mood -- until I met you."  Sometimes it's "I think I have Dissociative Identity Disorder -- when things go wrong she takes over to protect me.", and then she goes on for an hour relating stories from her past when her "other" has taken over, and then finally she talks about when it started, though her story of when it started always changes.  But, most of the time, it's "you just aren't used to dealing with a normal woman".  So, yeah, most of the time she thinks her behavior is totally normal.

Every once in a while she talks about going to see a counselor.  Usually that happens when her panic attacks are frequent.  She expresses a desire to talk to someone about panic disorder.  I try to encourage that but the desire does not last long.  It quickly changes into "I never had panic attacks before I moved in with you" which is obviously not true from her stories of her past.  She often talks about panic attacks well back into her teens.  I find the fluidity of her reality endlessly amusing.

Oh, and seriously not offended by your reaction to the space thing... .it IS too much.  But... .the reason it's too much is because she does not clearly explain the issue.  I had to work it out by making mistake after mistake.  According to her it's her *most important thing* but she refused to actually tell me what to do to make her comfortable.  As usual I mapped the minefield by feeling around in the dark.

Going back to your earlier post, what was it like for you to watch her change tactics so many times?

I remember when I first began to initiate new techniques and communication tools with my H and watched him try various tactics to get me to engage. It was so eye opening and almost surreal. I felt like Dorothy looking behind the curtain. I could see everything playing out in front of me, but since I was detached from it, it was all so clear.

Hang in there. Validation isn't going to work 100% of the time. In fact, it's more for you to show her you care, and less about changing her behavior. You and your W have years of practice and reacting to each other it will take time. Stick with it, even when it doesn't seem to help. Not letting her off the hook for wanting to cancel plans was a big move in letting her take responsibility for her own emotions. It took lots of limits on your end, but by the end of  the day she got there. Eventually, it will take less and less time. And when she does acknowledge her own weaknesses, positive reinforcement goes a long way. I usually thank my husband for sharing with me or find another way to unobviously reward him.

engineer these inconsistency echoes my wife completely. I think they have moments of clarity but eventually the BPD steps in to relieve them of the responsibility to seeking help for a scary illness. My wife had a brief period of acknowledging she had BPD and even went to a counselor once. The shame is that I knew nothing about BPD at that time and had no tools, otherwise it would have been good timing to steer her into DBT. I've heard no mention of BPD since then and when I bring up her behaviors it usually is "I won't change. If you don't like it then leave." 

So what I've been doing recently (that is when I'm not calling the police) is gently pointing her in the direction of DBT and positioning it as "skills training, not psychotherapy". First I shared a light DBT YouTube video that makes no reference to BPD, which she liked, and told her I had watched it myself to help me control my temper with our son. Last week I introduced her to the DBT training available at our hospital as an alternative path to me constantly calling the police. Yesterday I found detailed information on the program in her native language that I will share with her. I believe if I continue setting boundaries and soft-selling the treatment, she might decide to do it.

~ROE   

Ok.  So... .time to take stock of where I am with my BPD-wife-wranglin' skills and see what I need to do next.

The good:
 - I have improved greatly at keeping rages from escalating out of control.  I'll never be perfect -- progress over perfection is a comfortable state for me.
 - I have improved a little at not JADEing.  I find this very difficult, but at this point I at least have my head wrapped around the concept and I am able to practice it some.
 - I have gotten better at validating.  She hasn't called "BS" on my validation for a few weeks.

The bad:
 - I am still having a very hard time not walking on eggshells.  Most of the times she is triggered to rage are correlated with times that I am "nervous".  I don't know the causal direction.  i may be nervous because i can sense her mental state, or she may be getting into a bad mental state because I'm nervous.  And this is the reason I point the whole thing out.  If I can stop walking on eggshells enough to stop being nervous, maybe that will help her to stay out of the bad mental state that causes her to deploy invisible bear traps.

Semi-related story:
On Sunday I got her out of the house.  As we went from the first store to the second store I thought to myself "Boy, this has been really nice... .there has been enough peace that I am finally starting to calm down".  Well that lasted 15 minutes.  In the second store she started hacking at me.  All the way through the store she criticised and complained.  On the way out of the store I lost my composure for an instant and she exploded in fiery rage.  She finally calmed down late last night and things are sort of ok for the moment.  Over the course of the last few days she projected like I've never seen her project before.  Within seconds of each of her bad behaviors she accused me of being the one who had done what she just did.  Over and over.  She said something interesting last night after I accidentally bumped a potted plant with my elbow and she responded with spitting rage... ."I never know what is going to happen, I think things are just fine but then 5 minutes later you just erupt in fury out of nowhere.  And I know you think I'm the one who is doing that."  And it's interesting because I have *never* said that to her.  It kind of proves the whole point about what is going on in her head.  I think this may be why it's so hard for me to get my head around the fact that she will never be able to see logic -- I see evidence that the truth is in her head somewhere and I feel like all I have to do is get her to see it.  I understand that it will never happen, but it's hard to convince my brain of that.

Hello again, engineer:

It sounds like you have had some positive insights since you last shared. It's so good to get your update:


Since you're an engineer, I would imagine that being married to a person who struggles to process things logically would be a tough thing to deal with day in and day out. When you see/hear your wife projecting onto you the things that she, herself, is feeling, what do you do/say to her?

I know it's tough at times, but you're doing great.


-Speck

You are doing great!

I guess so much of being in a r/s w BPD
is it is counter intuitive.  If something feels right, strongly right, the right thing to do NOW.  I need to pause and reconsider.  Right now! That's a red flag.

If something feels strange to me, that is probably what there is for me to do.

And urgency.  Urgency.  That is my key to slow the heck down.


Either way, slowing down for me is good.
I can trust my inner core on the above.


You are on you way.

Everyone here has experience, strength and hope.

You can run everything by us.  Get feedback.

You are great!

what have you done, and are doing, around self care.

Sincerely,

juju

Interestingly enough, she encourages self care as well as well, but then she stands in the way.

I have many things I would like to do to take care of myself, by doing things for me at home or by doing things I enjoy out of the house.

At home, it is stopped for the simple reason that she requires 100% attention when I am home.  She complains constantly that I don't do anything but sit and listen to her when I am at home, but if I try to do anything else she absolutely blocks me.

When I am away... .now that's trickier.  She is always encouraging me to get out of the house and go do things.  But... .when I leave the house I never know when I will be allowed back in.  This happens every single day that I work at the office, and it happens whenever I leave to go do anything outside work hours.

For example.  This Saturday we came up with a plan for me to leave the house for an hour to go to the music store.  I wanted a set of drumsticks and a practice pad so I could work on rudiments.  She wanted an hour of time to herself.  I left, went to the music store, and had a good time.  I messaged her that I was about done and she said she had lost track of time and hadn't done anything.  Of course, I have to want to do something else -- she can't ask me to stay out longer... .but if I don't want to do something else all hell will break loose.  So I offered to go to tractor supply for some stuff.  After that, the same thing happened, so I offered to go to Kroger.  After that it happened again so I offered to bring home dinner.  All told, I was supposed to be gone for one hour and instead I was not able to come home for *6* hours.  And it's not really the amount of time that bothers me, it's the fact that I am in limbo.  The fact that there might have been other things I wanted to do that did not involve me running aimlessly around town all day wondering when I would be allowed in the door.

Same thing happens at the end of *EVERY* work day.  I end up getting home at 8 or 9 pm most days.  I just hang around at my office playing games.  I can't actually *DO* anything because she won't allow it to be a plan -- my day gets extended in 15 minute increments over and over.

And oh yes I have tried every possible way to get through to her that I need to be able to plan better.  It's like trying to teach calculus to a cat.  She just does not understand.

Ok, this turned into a big whining session.  hehe... .I suppose catharsis is valuable :)

Heh this is reason #1 why things have gotten better.

Before I had any clue what was going on I used to tell her "um, no, this is what actually happened".  Well, that doesn't work.

There is rarely anything to validate except for her feelings... .So I will say something like "I understand how you feel" or whatever.

Mostly I try very hard not to invalidate her.  So giving her the facts is right out.  "Sorry love, that was *you* going bananas when i bumped that plant with my elbow.  As you may recall my response was to say 'oops' and chuckle".  Yeah... .not gonna happen.

Interesting, though... .if I give in and accept blame for whatever crap she is spouting -- i.e. if I apologise... .she goes extra special bananas.  She will usually say something that makes me feel like deep down inside she knows she is the one doing this, and me apologising for it makes her feel worse.

I think maybe the problem is not that she is illogical, but that I am working from false premises and therefore am not able to work the logic out.  All of her behavior is consistent.

Engineer,

Remember... .it is more important to avoid invalidation than it is to find something to validate.

Many times if you aren't sure of the validation target... .asking a follow up question or letting her know that she is heard and that you are ready to listen more... .can be just as powerful as validating a feeling.

Also... .from time to time when they say something that you completely agree with (and is valid)... .jump on that and agree... 100%.  Then hush... let them deal with the shock of being agreed with.

In my relationship, once I figured out that facts didn't matter... .and I avoided invalidation... .paranoid delusions mostly disappeared.  Life got much better.

Invalidation is a very powerful thing... .and is the primary lesson you (and others) should learn from all of this.


FF

Holy smokes. I am new here, but have been dealing with... .So many of the things in this thread. Engineer, my situation sounds so similar that it's kind of frightening. I am an engineer as well, so I tried for years to approach with logic. It has always gone exactly as you describe. I, too, have found that abandoning logic is really my only hope of even making contact with the person that I love. It's like she's a prisoner inside of that scary beast, and the only way to try to see her, hear her, or even know she's still there is to let go of any logical means to find common ground. This thread is absolutely riveting to me. I still struggle with how to try to validate, just as so many of you have said, because it usually feels false - like I am lying and sacrificing the truth to validate. It kind of feels like abandoning my natural logical process is violating a boundary in a way. Does it ever feel like that to you?

Thank you.  Absolutely.  That's what I am starting to see as the fog clears.

I'm getting to know myself a little better too.  I always saw myself as being someone who can handle fluid perception of reality.  But, boy is that harder than I thought.

Yesterday she told me that all aliens are actually us because time is a human construction and gravity is an illusion (this was caused by a vast, VAST misunderstanding of my explanation of general relativity), and I didn't bat an eyelash.  I didn't have to try.  I listened and pulled out the bits of what she was saying that were valid and I didn't argue with her about the rest.  No problem at all.  I also have absolutely no problem when she tells me that our house ghost knocked over a plant in the middle of the night.  So why is it that it is SO freaking hard for me to do the same thing when she is telling me I have no ability to communicate with anyone because my parents were abused as children?  Seems like the same level of fantasy to me... .ah, but one is *about me* and I react defensively.  Heh... .I'm not as fluid with my perceptions as I thought :)

I would suggest that instead of reacting defensively... .you react with your values... .and perhaps some questions

How are her observations supposed to be received?

Would she receive the observations in the same way?

If not (which you know is the case)... .then how would she expect someone else to react to that? 

The key here is to not be judgmental... .but more perplexed... .let her talk about the purple unicorns in her world... and explain the other magical friends... .you stay interested... .yet struggling to connect the dots.

Then... .later on, sort of a "glad you have something that works for you... ."  "I have something that works for me"... .and express confidence that you will both be able to respect each other.

It's a process... .and can be funny... .such as her trying to explain why you have to respect her purple unicorn... .but your three eyed troll must go... .

FF

Lol. Great description!

Mine knows that I don't believe in ghosts. She's almost ashamed of the fact that she does, but I guess I must be accepting that one well enough, because she has started to talk to me about them more. A sign that its working. I hope?

Yup.

On the other hand... .there is a big part of me that trusts logic as *the way* so fervently that I believe to my core that the reason I can't work her out logically is that my logic is incomplete.  Somewhere my premises are incorrect.  The first incorrect premise was that her brain works similarly to mine.  It just doesn't.  It's like this... .based on study of general relativity, can anything radiate out of a black hole?  Nope.  But... .Add quantum mechanics and, sure enough, there's Hawking radiation from a black hole.

I look at it this way... .reality is, fundamentally, *our perception* of reality.  My wife's perception of reality is different from mine.  I'm driving myself crazy trying to work out how her reality works.  But you know what?  It took me a fair bit of time to get my head around quantum mechanics when I first learned about it (actually, it really pissed me off, and still does to some extent).


I always used to tell people "I desperately want to believe in ghosts, so the overwhelming lack of evidence for their existence is terribly disappointing."  I find my wife's total faith in their existence quite enjoyable :)

Yes! Perfectly said! That is always at the crux of it. That's the fulcrum on which I can of move my version of reality to the side and accept hers w/o condescension an invalidation. It just takes a really long lever sometimes.

Avoiding condescension and invalidation are worthy goals... .very important.

Another worthy goal is to not put yourself in the position of saving a pwBPD from reality... .or from the natural and logical consequences of living in "their reality"

There is also big thing where you don't want to "validate the invalid"

Boy... .lots to balance here... .right?   

Somewhere in all this it's important that we don't loose ourselves (so be careful setting aside your reality) we want to be authentic... without being judgmental.

So... .what does all that look like?

Well... .

If they say something shocking... .it's ok to be shocked... .perplexed... and communicate to them that you'll need to consider this before responding.  You're not saying it's wrong or bad... .

Also... if you make yourself ask direct questions... .before sharing your opinion... .it's likely to go better.

So... .they claim they are flying monkeys in the front yard.  You peek out the window... and only see a purple unicorn.  "Oh goodness... thanks for letting me know.  I see something different in the front yard... would you like to hear about it?"

If they say yes... .by all means proceed.

If they say no... .there you go... conversation over.  Express disappointment and move on.

Anyway... .lots to consider and work through when dealing with someone that "sees things" very differently.

FF

Well now you lost me.  All our purple unicorns are tied up in the *back* yard, and the flying monkeys are in the dungeon where they belong.

The problem I have is that sometimes I am a little slow to recognize that she is having a perception problem.  Last night we had just such a situation.  I caught it before she got all the way out of hand, but she was pretty irritated with me.  She was working on some html and needed an image resized.  I have photoshop on my machine, so she sent me the image and I resized it and sent it back.  She then started having endless trouble with the image positioning and could not figure out what was wrong.  I offered to take a look and she got spittin' mad. "That is SO condescending!" she said.  Finally I realized she was not looking for the error in her html because she thought something was magically wrong with the image that made the elements around it refuse to position themselves the way she wanted.  Once I realized she was lost in space I said "OH! Something must be wrong with the image!" and let it go.  She quit being angry after a few minutes and only smacked me over the head (figuratively) for offering to help her (by resizing the image) when I am not actually able to help (eye roll).

 
Oh... .well... that explains all your problems... . Unicorns go in the front yard... .everyone knows that.

Only the R.O.U.S are allowed in the back yard.  

good grief... .switch them around... trust me.

And... .if you can tell me what the R.O.U.S stands for... .where it comes from... .I will sing your praises... .although it is "inconceivable" that you would know what it means.

switching gears... .you are a better man than I.

I try to use "standard troubleshooting techniques" to fix computer things... .you know... .a process you use every time.  Magical things do sometimes happen to computers... .but usually... .you can reboot... .or replicate what you just tried to do... .and figure out where things went wrong.

Does my pwBPD do that way... .(everyone... .start snickering... .)

So... .when she complains... .I will validate... then I toss the rules out the window and turn into a complete A$$.

I refuse to do any computer work for her until she specifically asks for it... .I demand clarity... .no BPD speak.  

Which pisses her off... .which usually leads to her fixing it herself... .or in rare cases she will clearly ask for help... .I will fix... .then I start demanding payment... .

So much better than the days of a computer user than just couldn't be made happy... or have things explained to them...

 |iiii

FF

ps... I suppose this really does follow the "rules"... .if you remember... being able to "agree" with a pwBPD is a powerful thing... even better than validation.

"I agree... .I am an A$$ and my tech support is expensive"   

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :)

Regarding the ROUS, though... .unfortunately whoever built my house put the fire swamp off to the side instead of the back yard, so I am limited in my choices there.

Oh how I have tried to get her to watch TPB.  I know she will hate it... .but I just hold out hope that she might have enough imagination to enjoy that movie.

"I agree" and "You're right" result in the following responses:  "It makes no difference whether you agree or not, because I am correct".  And "I know I am right, that's why I said it."

"I understand" is met with "But you don't"

"I hear you" is met with "That means you don't agree with me"

"I get it" begets "If you got it you would stop doing (whatever I did to trigger her)"

ad infinitum.

Every normal validation phrase you can think of is a trigger for her.  I suspect a former boyfriend was aware she had BPD and validated poorly, setting her up with triggers.  So... .validation is really difficult.

Don't even get me started on what a bad idea it is for me to apologise if I find something in her cavalcade of comedy that I actually should apologise for.  "I'm sorry" yields an *INSTANT* WW3 rage.

So... .stop trying... until you have a clear validation target.

Seriously... .ask direct questions.  Are you frustrated?  Are you angry? 

or...

What do you feel about this?

Then... .once she has identified it... .you can validate and express support that such a feeling is quite normal... .given the circumstances.

Of course if she flips you off... .let her know you are interested in her feelings, whenever she is interested in sharing. 

it is MUCH more important to avoid invalidation than it is to validate.  One invalidation is roughly worth 10 good validations.

Seriously... it is that powerful.

FF

OK... so there is a combative quality.

Perhaps a general thing to say.   

"Hey... this seems really important to you.  Can you help me understand how this is so important to you?"  (soft tone... .perhaps a light touch on her arm or shoulder... .a very slight "lean in"




So... when she wants to be combative like this... there can be a couple approaches.

1.  Let her be pissed... and you have fun with it.

So... you say again... "I agree... "  (wash rinse repeat)


2.  express a bit of surprise  say "ouch"... .pause... .then ask a direct question "what would you have rather I said?"  (a bit hurt... a bit quizzical).

3.  "I see... ." (bemused... .)




don't get in a back and forth... .go to process.

"Oh my... ." pause "Would you like me to reflect back to you my understanding?"

you stay neutral... .yet make this painful for her... .go into great detail about your understanding... .




"Oh my... ."... ."are you interested in what I intend it to mean?"  (stay neutral... .let her hang herself)




Oh... .you can have fun with this one... .

You need to be centered and ready to play with it.

"Oh babe... .at first glance... it appears that you are trying to get me to do something... without directly asking... .but I know you wouldn't do that.  Something serious must be going on... .  Would you like to sit down and talk... ."

Get some popcorn and a soda... .enjoy the fun... .just don't get hooked into the argument.

FF

Oh yes, absolutely.  Fortunately I've gotten much better at not invalidating.  I forget precisely because she is intelligent, and every once in a while I slip and treat her like I would any intelligent person, and she finds it condescending.

Every once in a while she talks about the idea of taking a job in IT as tech support.  Oh man... .she just doesn't know.  She would probably be in a clock tower by the end of the first day.  Not a job for the thin-skinned.  The thing is, she makes bonehead mistakes (like all of us -- I could have messed up that html too... .um... .maybe not) but she would be pretty good at it.  She finds solutions I didn't think of sometimes.

Interesting... .in my house TPB is loved by all.

The holy grail is loved by males and hated by females.  My wife calls it "that stupid movie... "

So... I got the chance to go see holy grail in theater.  :)12 decided she loved it and started quoting it... .the female wall of hate had crumbled... .

Oh... the monkeys started flying that day... it was really funny.

FF

Wow... .

Hey... .what kind of engineer are you.

My oldest is about to graduate with a computer engineering degree.  He is evaluating where to go get his masters at the moment.  Very strong chance he will follow that with a PhD somewhere.

Kid is wicked smart. 

In general the boys in my house really like tech stuff... .we build lots of computers for fun and make things connect and work... just to prove it can be done.

FF

Yes, there is, and you just validated me :)

This is exactly what I am working on improving my skills at -- the dance.

I am a serious novice at it.  Getting there, though :)

Some of the specific things you said would result in an engineer-shaped smoldering hole in the floor in my case, but it's definitely along the right track.

I'm a software engineer -- been doing this professionally since 1988.  Started out writing FORTRAN on a VAX.  I highly recommend it as a career choice :)

So... .my oldest was really big into robotics and when he started college would have said that he wanted to be more of a "hardware guy"... .but as time has gone on he has done several internships that were much more focused on writing code.

So... .how often do you come across PhD types in industry.  Do they seem to make lots more money?  Do they do really different jobs?

My kid is definitely doing masters... .and is kicking around continuing for PhD... .although he says he isn't interested in academia.

Anyway... .

FF

The key is to not "fight back"... .but you kind of side step the smoldering hole and with a bit of a bemused look ask why she flamethrowered the floor.

Said another way... .we build up your armor just a bit... .but when she shoots at you... .you expend absolute minimum energy so you don't take a direct frontal hit... .the bullet will hit your armor... .and ricochet off... .and you have most of your energy left.

If you really want to have fun with it... .wait till a ricochet flies off an hits her... .then she tries to blame you for her bullet hitting her... .yet you move ever so slightly and it just doesn't work for her.

Eventually... .you will get to the point where you can see her load up... .her finger caresses the trigger... .and some sort of cost benefit analysis happens... and she decides it's not worth it...

Victory is mine!

FF

Ok I'll put on my holocaust cloak and dive in here... .
I'm largely self-taught, but have doing most of these things and learning by feel for the last two years or so. One thing that I've found that works with my wife when she is in that back-and-forth kind of mode like you describe, is I just grab her. I hold her in the warmest embrace I can possibly muster, and she squirms (like the cat in a tree analogy) and I just say 'I love you.'  ' No you don't.' 'Yes.  I love you.' 'No you don't!' 'I do. I love you, and I'm not going anywhere.' And so on. It goes on for a minute, but I can feel her relax in my arms, and then she's all but back to Earth. It's like her fear of abandonment makes her test whether acting like this can drive me away. As you say, FF, victory is mine!

This post is proof that individual relationships will find things that work... and don't.

Pragmatism is critical!  Just because it didn't work from someone else... but it works for you... .declare victory and move along.

FF

That response is so very much like me that I have a hard time stopping myself from doing it... .but unfortunately she will not be approached when she is even slightly upset.  I can't even stand up without her going nuts, and if I manage to get close enough to touch her she starts screaming "don't hurt me", or worse: "don't hurt me again" as if I ever would or have.  She claims she's never been physically abused, so I have no idea where the reaction comes from.

Yeah, so every relationship has its own nuances, but I find it very hard to find things that work.  It always seems like every avenue is blocked.  At least I am getting better at not invalidating :)

Ok... .so... .along another topic.

I said a few pages ago that I got the rages down to once a week or so.  But I haven't gotten any kind of handle on the dysregulation.  She does that with startling regularity.  Several times per day.

And, I have noticed a pattern.

No matter what I am doing, no matter what is going on, no matter whether there is something to get upset about or not, she dysregulates at *exactly the same times* every day.

Once in the morning around 11am, once in the afternoon at 5:30, and once around 11pm.  Hm... .i didn't realize before I wrote it down that it's every 6 hours.  If she wakes up at 6am she usually wakes me up by screaming at me.  So every 6 hours she deregulates.  That's interesting.

Anyway, this is absolutely every day like clockwork.

I thought for a while that it might have something to do with blood sugar, but I can't make sense of it.  She rarely eats during the day, and when she does it is very inconsistent, and she dysregulates independent of whether she has eaten or not.

I was reminded of this because earlier today we made a plan to buy her a car tomorrow.  She was SO happy, and so thankful for my help finding the car and organizing the trip to see the car in the morning.  Then... .just a few minutes ago... .she messaged me out of the blue just *exploding* with anger about... .something... .no idea what... .ready to forget the car and fly back to Australia (as always).  Heaping blame on me that I couldn't make heads or tails of.  I flew through this one without antagonizing her.  I'm getting a lot of practice at it.  She calmed down within a few minutes this time, but the quick resolution is not quite typical -- she usually stays in dysregulated state for half an hour to an hour, and I know to leave her alone once she stops baiting me.

So... .any clue?  If there's something food/environmental/sleep/whatever-related I might be able to make a change.

I'm not so sure that "not antagonizing her" is a good goal... .(let's keep talking about this... what does this mean?)

Here is the thing... .

If she is dysregulating... .support her.

If the "points it at you" ... .disengage.   Leave her alone to deal with herself... .when it's over... come back together.  Let her clean up mess.

Big difference... can you see that?

My goal is not to fix her dysregulation... .my goal is that you are much less affected by it.

FF

I started on this in another thread and then it kinda got out of hand and off-topic so I thought I'd move it over here :)

This morning I got up to put my dishes in the sink while my wife was talking to me.  I know she likes me to sit still while she is talking, but she had been talking for three hours straight at this point and I needed to move.  Well, based on her reaction you would think I'd twisted the head off of a kitten in front of her.  But I managed to not justify, argue, defend or explain (I really hate jargon, sorry everyone) and instead just sat and listened with a caring look in my eye while she told me I was obviously raised by wolves and could barely function as a human being, let alone as an adult.  And just like that, it was done and my smiley, happy, yakkity Aussie came back and told me what a beautiful man I am. 

I feel better if I translate that whole exchange into "I was talking and when you got up it distracted me" "oh sorry love" "no worries".  The more I talk to her about how she feels the more I think that is what she really thinks the conversation is.  And, if I react to her actual words, the conversation from her point of view is like "I was talking and when you got up it distracted me" "what the hell?  I just got up for crying out loud and you are beating me over the head for it, what is wrong with you?".  And that is when the real fight starts :)

She has been giving me this message consistently.

From my point of view, something minor happens and she responds with absolute venom and hatred, and I react to the venom and hatred.

From her point of view, something minor happens, she responds lovingly, and I react as if she had just spewed venom and hatred at me :)

I have been trying very hard to understand that her responses to things are just magnified.  When I succeed in doing this on-the-spot translation, things don't escalate nearly as often.

Just writing my thoughts down, here.

Well I really put this into practice last night.

She said, out of the blue: ":)id you know there is an election today?" I said "Nope" and she launched into a torrent of personal attacks ranging all the way from ridiculous to monumentally ridiculous, then declared that America is stupid, everything about it is stupid, it's a third-world country pretending to be part of the western world, she feels lost and out of place and she doesn't belong here.

I sat and listened and when she was all the way done I finally spoke up and told her I understood how she felt... .and let her be for a minute.  Then she came back and restated her point like a rational human being so I could *actually* understand how she felt, and then thanked me for being kind to her and told me she was sorry all night. (i can't stop her once she gets into sorry sorry sorry mode -- no amount of acceptance/forgiveness/anything will make her feel like the apology has been accepted, but I did at least score a hit by saying "you are allowed to have feelings -- it's ok!".  Then she ordered a subscription to the local paper and said the problem is that she isn't keeping up with the news and hasn't made any effort to integrate into the culture here.  Now this is the actual truth.  I'm at my wits end just trying to get her to leave the apartment.  I have tried everything I know how to do to get her to open her eyes and look around but she just completely refuses.

She's happy this morning.  We will see what happens later in the day.

This is very insightful!  For you and everyone else. 

This sort of points to the core of "the issue" with a PD.  They are so skewed that they likely really do think that they are "normal and loving" and that others are the ones "off".

Keep this in mind as you formulate your responses.

FF

I like what I read here.  There was some pragmatism and some not taking it personally (it appears) which allowed you to "detach" and formulate a response that was based on what she needs, versus how offended you were by her flaemthrowering you.

You also keep the "main point" front and center.  The main point being that she has feelings and they are ok.  (keep in mind the nuance for the future that her feelings and how she expresses them are different)

Big picture:  if you can help her calm enough she may start to realize and think about the difference in her feelings and how she expresses her feelings.  This is not something to push... .just be ready in the future, if this comes up.

FF

Hi engineer, it's good to hear from you.

Just wanted to say you have made a really tremendous effort in terms of improving your communication and validation skills. Impressive work! 

It's been about 2.5 months since you first joined us on here I think. How would you rate your overall situation now compared to then? What are the biggest changes you've seen and what do you hope can change next?

All the best,
~ROE

Thank you :)  I have learned a lot here!

There is one thing that has changed that I think has been pivotal... .My oversensitivity and thin-skinned-ness in the face of her "flamethrowerings" (I like that) is uncharacteristic.  I have, historically, been very, very thick-skinned.  Having to deal with her sent me to a counselor, and ultimately to a doctor.  I found out last year that my blood pressure was through the roof and was prescribed a beta blocker.  That changed my responses to my wife.  I was no longer in constant cowering-in-the-corner mode, but I still wasn't handing her well.  This past Monday I went back to the doctor and found out I very likely have a pituitary tumor that is causing out of control cortisol (the stress hormone) production.  She put me on a different medication to control things a bit better.  I feel, to some extent, like I am me again.  I am finding it *much* easier to remain calm in the face of her attacks.  Before, it was like my brain just switched off as soon as she went on the offensive.

So, NOW, I can really apply all the things I have learned here.  My brain remains engaged when I am talking to her, and I can actually remember what to do.

Anyway, so the plan for the moment is to be consistently supportive of her feelings and way of emotional expression.  She needs to feel "safe" with me.  I have known for a long time that she needed this, but I seemed to be unable to do it when I was already at the cortisol redline.  She has mentioned many times that her emotions are more intense because she did not feel like she could share them with me.  I trust her to know herself enough to be telling the truth here.

Speaking of which... .I've noticed some interesting things when she tells me about past relationships.  She never in her life had a relationship as close as ours (she had never lived with a man before), so her BPD was not as likely to be triggered in the past, but she has told me stories that suggest she displayed BPD traits when she was young.  I read a bit about it, and it seems BPD traits come out at their strongest during adolescence and perimenopause.  Well, just my luck, she is in the latter of these now.  She often notes that her emotions are being fueled hormonally, and blames her perimeopausal state for heightened emotional sensitivity.  I think this is probably very true.  I think she definitely has BPD traits, but I think they are being magnified at the moment.

Heh, so I am not depending on her to move to the next stage of menopause to solve these problems, but if I get a handle on them now it means that things will be in really good shape once she moves past her current stage.

*mod*

Hi there - I noticed this has a lot of pages/responses, and the policy is to lock a thread from new responses when it gets past 59 posts (sorry, just noticed it) but we certainly encourage the conversation to continue on a new thread.  I think the issue is it gets too long to display properly for mobile users.

So please feel free to keep "talking", you'll just need to move it to a new post.

Thanks!

Isilme