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I kinda keep saying that, time to move on and I need to Detach. There just seems to be some pressure to examine whether I'm acting out of fear. And I am. But not fear of her having made myself vulnerable and being rejected. But being vulnerable and being accepted by a woman who at best is dishonest and incapable of a sustained relationship and at worst toxic BPD/NPD and could ensare me in a cycle of devalue/discard for years.

BTW the sleeping with (oh sorry "dabbling with" the other guy is not the betrayal per se (though it does show a much more cavalier attitude to both sex and to me then I believed). it is in full knowledge of how hard it was for me to open/share all those parts of myself she relentlessly pushed me to it only to discard it all the next day and then disappear from my life. The other betrayal, pshaw, I had simply walked away. That one sticks with me. Again what I'm trying to take is something positive; that my heart WAS opened up. I'm not shutting it down again since that was the mistake in the first place that made me vulnerable. Truly I'm just looking to detach without having to examine inane conversations that should never have been had or wondering if my fear of this woman is valid or not. I think you'd agree that she is not worth it and fear of reconnecting with her is valid.

Ok Skip but you can see hyperbole aside how the overarching analysis of her might be a lot more spot on than poor damaged girl trying to deal with Grand Gesture.

Of course I go back and forth. What ELSE do people do after being loved and discarded by pwBPD? I don't know if there was someone else for 18 months. I am pretty certain there was at the end. I know by her words at least she had a date and 'dabbled' a few weeks before all this and was considering other dates (while giving me keys to her apt and emptying drawers in her bedroom and asking me to reoconsider moving to california for HER). I don't truly think she did it for the joy Skip. I don't know why she did it. I know she knows that I didn't 'misunderstand' and ask her for more and she knows how hurt I was and didn't reach out to succor or comfort or provide me with closure as I did with her.

Before I answer that I need to write down here what your take on this situation seems to be to me, as I keep trying to detach having come to the conclusion based on all of hre behavior that if she is not BPD/NPD she is simply bad news for me to reconnect with. You seem to come from this scenario:

This girl pursued me for 18 months, I took advantage of all she had to offer emotionally and physically while withholding affection/appreciation due to 'fear' and that when I finally aske for a relationship when I was ready she said no, I verbally attacked her, stormed out, went NC on her causing even more damage and then thought a little poem by way of a Grand Gesture would make it all better and got mad when it didn't in a few short weeks and am not, out of the same fear that damaged the relationship, running so as not to have to deal with possible rejection.

It is a nice screenplay to be sure, it is not close to what happened. I simply didn't give her the romance/relationship she wanted when she wanted it. She could have cared less what I could give and pushed for it relentlessly. I was a great friend to her, I was instrumental in getting her a 50% raise that changed her life, listened to all her problems wihtout judgment and was helpful in her solving many of them, was kind, affectionate, and did not 'use' her for sex in fact, even if this is TMI it is relevant, I had ZERO orgasms in the whole time we were intimate compared to probably 100+ for her. Not that I count but the point is I didn't use her from any point of view, brought a lot to her life, and especially as she was just coming out of a relationship with an emotionally abusive man that almost destroyed her.

My mea culpa took on way more onus than it had to in order to try to restore any damage I caused by not "appreciating" her more, which was made all the harder by her being inappropriate and disrespectful of my needs e.g. asking me to buy us a place in NYC no less on what amounted to our second date.

I'm not the heavy here. She is. Intentionally or not.

Breaking up the day after practically a shotgun wedding she set up, gaslighting me to try to buy into it all being a misunderstanding on my part, and then disappearing on me for 3 months are bad bad things and not a thing I did deserved that. To repeat; not a THING I did to this girl deserved any of the things I got in return least of which the end and the discard/NC.

Other than my reactive texts to her texts that were near impossible to not be reactive to I was quite mature and honest. And after having her ripped out of my life after she'd relentlessly extracted every part of myself I told her I could not give, what did I do Skip? I took my own hurt and pain and confusion out of the equation, learned to communicate better and wrote not one but two beautiful, healing, non-recriminatory letters to her. Id' say that is emotionally mature.

Where does my most recent 'paint it black' come from? Her radio silence yet again which is mean and disrespectful to a man she apparantly considrered spending her life with. She did it when she cut-and-ran. She did it AFTER she invited me out to meet her, she must have known how painful that would be. And whether or not my Grand Gesture told her to reach out when and if she was ready she reached out IMMEDIATLY. And asked if I could be available to speak ad hoc on her whim that week. Everyone who read that finds it not disrespectful (I do) but downright weird and I said yes. That was three weeks ago.  So clearly she changed her mind. Why? Who knows.

Yet if she decided there was no reason to meet me to 'speak truthfully' if the truth was just 'not intereste/with another guy/never loved you/can't be lovers' whatever, than I'd say I earned an email or letter or 'thoughtful note' saying just that. If not for me even then for her so she could just slam the door and not worry about follow-up emails, flowers, text.

So as I've said, it just sheds more light on either how she felt about me or how selfish/damaging she is. I'm supposed to now guess or wait or figure out after... .a month? 3 months? A year? that oh ok she doesn't want to reconnect. Plain mean and selfish. And birthday party and nice texts aside what has she been beside that? What she wanted from me when she wanted it and damned what it cost me.

So you ask me the difference between "vulnerable" and "harm"?

When you are afraid of getting a 'no' when you want a 'yes' you are afraid of being vulnerable, and that is no way to live your life or your love.

When you are afraid of physical or emotional damage from a source that has already damaged you you are afraid of harm and that is a way to stay alive and unharmed.

You seem to think my fear is that she may reject me now. To be honest, even if she came back to ME with a Grand Gesture, it would be a Hail Mary between how much I did NOT love her and how little trust I have in her since.

But in fact Skip me fear is that she may ACCEPT me. Becuase all indications are that she is damaged, likely toxic pwBPD or even pwNPD and I've just made myself hugely vulnerable with an over-the-tip mea culpa she could use to ensare me in an endless cycle of devalue/discard and I'll be on this board for a decade until I walk off a bridge. I just want to be on here (as a 'patient' for a few weeks to detach myself and go love a woman who deserves my love. I know how to love. I always have. I was not ready when she came into my life and it I were ready I would not have been with her.

There are far better women out there, far better ones for me. I know this because I've dated them, they've date me, I've loved them and they loved me.

Here is a place we fully agree Skip. Because I kick myself sometimes for sending her that letter. But since I know she is not 'evil' and at least part of her is the girl I cared about then I gave her something that is hopefully valuable/healing to her.

But in any event for me, it allowed me to express who I am, to learn to put aside my own hurt and pain and confusion to try to understand/validate my partner's (thank you for that) and it allowed me to in the future either accept something fully despite my fear OR reject it if I can't get past that fear.

Add to that that she dragged my heart open despite myself I end up with all of that and an open heart. To summarize:

- Gave someone I cared about some love/validation/healing/closure/appreciation
- Learned to be fully present without fear in the choices I make or to not choose them until I can
- Keep my heart open
- Listen to my instincts
- Never start a land war in Asia

1T, this is not how I see it... .nor is how I see it critical.  :)

It's about how you see it. My posts to you have been mostly trying pull you into the center of your reality and the center of your emotions where both the truth and your opportunity for healing lies.

We I first started posting with you, you were painting her black. I tried to center you and encourage you to look at her behavior with the same compassion that you look at your own, and your swung all the way to white. I tried to discourage you from flooding her with a grand gesture because 1) they rarely work, and 2) it would raise your expectations to extreme levels and set you up for a fall. It did and you have now swung all the way back to black.

Living on these extremes is hurting you, 1T. It's hurting you a lot. Its hurting you in many ways.

Do you see that? Do you see that if you can occupy the center that you will not be so tortured? You will be able to weather this situation much better? Do you see that someone who is trying to bring you to the center is helping you?

Whether she is white or she is black. Whether you are detaching or trying to reconnect. Whether you are trying to ask her to be your girlfriend or lashing out and walking out the door... .Whether it is 2008 or 2018, the common thread in all of these things are your extreme swings.

That narrative above is not how I see it. I'll be glad to share what I read between the lines if you want to know. What that narrative above is how I was telling you she might see it (although not as extreme as you have it written it above).

Most importantly, your work here is about you. Moving forward with this girl or exiting the relationship and grieving are very important, but secondary. What brings you here is the pain you have been feeling and that pain transcends this relationship.

Ultimately you have an important choice to make. Do you continue to ride these emotional waves (we have members that will ride those waves with you), or do you fight yourself to settle down and get to the center with the help of members here.

We have choices. Good mental health is often the hard choice.

Thank you for that Skip, it gives me a lot better insight to your motivations and your own insights. I likely did not even pick up that you were discouraging me from the Hail Mary to be honest I sort of felt like I was being encouraged to reach out and mea culpa. I'll gather that was not the case but too late in any event.  As I mentioned, I saw it as 50/50 since just waiting for her after 'no worries reach out when you want I am here' while seemingly the perfect space to give her ran the risk of her using that space to remember all of the doubts she expressed in that text exchange.

I don't see the Hail Mary as having hurt 'my chances' (if I want them) if she TRULY felt the way she implied/expressed she did. I think if she did it might have delayed it since now reaching out is not just a tentative reconnection but a very charged one. Let her sit with it, I need time anyway clearly.

In any event again I appreciate this reply and get what you are saying. I don't think she is black (evil, intentional) I don't think she is white (virginal victim of emtotionally stunted man) but I do think she has some major emotional issues and has moral/ethical ones that don't align with mine. Even when I lash out I don't believe what I say but it feels better :) Naturally I'd love to know if/that she really felt that way and that she has struggled with losing me if only because she is the first person I LET like me and... .it felt good to be known, appreciated, wanted, chosen.

So maybe the Hail Mary is good Skip for a few reasons; it let me take some ownership and move her off of Black. It hopefully addressed all of those uncertainties she had about how I felt that she expressed and give her at least after the fact some solace. And maybe it delayed us reconnecting until I can work out my stuff and she can work out her stuff and when she is ready to reach out (which I believe she will if she truly felt that way) we will REALLY see what we have. I will say it is interesting to me she is even still reaching out/replying as again we had a very short relationship which never got to 'intense'. I mean we've been apart almost as long as we were 'officially' together (not counting the 14 months of sporadic texting prior). Something is keeping us tethered... .

Thanks again for your reply it meant a lot to me.

If you read back, you will see I was encouraging "baby steps". So was Gemsforeyes. I named it Hail Mary to make the point that it was long shot. But that ship sailed.

I get that the emotions swings make you feel better, it the day. I get that they are deeply ingrained. But they are not helping.  Did you listen to that Tudor video I linked you to?

I'm kind of glad it sailed to tell the truth. Like I said if she felt the way she felt I don't think it hurt it only delayed. I mean if she has been wanting to reconnect (clearly she did when I texted her) then this at the end of the day is good stuff. It just puts more on the table explicitly so makes it a more charged meet if it happens (which clearly makes it harder to choose to do). I get she has retreated each time we are about to meet but since I've made it clear I am not angry or looking for answers I'm going to guess what worries her are her feelings.

If she did not want to reconnect well... .then it didn't hurt either since it would just make her not reconnect anyway.

Do you think her saying she'd reach out and then not (after three weeks) means she changed her mind and won't? Wouldn't the best solution if she decided not to just be to email me and say that? Like "Hi look I reconsidered, I don't think reconnecting makes sense now. I cared about you. But I need to move on". Or something like that to close the door instead of keeping the door open (for me to follow up or her to reach out) or even to give a guy who just made a really nice gesture some closure vs spinning in the wind?

Anyway no I didn't listen to Tudor. I've been on his site before I got to bpdfamily and read his stuff. It's almost like he's found a way to prey on NPD victims that were not his by playing into their worst fears. So I left his site (I did like NicoleMethod). I did't even notice the Quora reply was his until I sent it to you, I should have given the depth of thought he gave to all the victim types.

Just for some perpsective on the swings and even when I was with her the hair-trigger reactions; when I moved back for my father I didn't have a room and haven't for years. I live on a full size bed in the kitchenette. It has been a highly charged home with my father's illness for years, then my mother's depression and I have a sister who was both in rehab and then in and out of institutions who has extreme anger issues on top of everything who is constantly cursing, slamming, etc and also made me the scapegoat for many things in the family. So not only am I in a highly emotionally charged and conflict-heavy environment, I've been in one without a door to close. It's like being out in the middle of the prairie with no cover with leopards on one side and snakes on the other. So I react now just like that; spinning to my right and to my left and always on guard. I get that. It became clear to me when I lashed out with her and even here. I am trying to get that under control, until I can get my business launched and be able to afford to care for myself and take care of my mother, I'm stuck in that situation so I'm trying to learn ways to de-escalate and re-calibrate my reactions to what they were before. Not an easy task.

Well I might regret this but now my curiosity has the better of me. After all my ramblings here :) what is it you read between the lines in this story?

Dear 1stT-
I apologize for my technical challenges- I don’t know how to show what Skip posted, but in his response #46, I strongly believe he hit the crux of the issue.  The core of it.  And you, my friend are feeling that... .I believe you are getting to the point where you want to stop fighting yourself.  It DOES take us a while to get there.  Pain and confusion brings us to this day.  And Cat very accurately stated that you need to forgive yourself.  You may not understand fully what that means today; but you will.  And then you’ll “forgive” 36-hour BPDgf.  Please stop yourself from even thinking that she doesn’t “deserve” your forgiveness.  This isn’t about her right now.  It’s ONLY about you, 1stT.

The question you ask Skip “what is it you read between the lines of my story”?, is I believe a larger question than you may think.  I don’t want to say anything until Skip begins.  And then I’ll join back in.

I just want you to know that you can and WILL come out of this spin that I feel you’ve been caught in.  You simply need to allow yourself to do that.  You will not need to repeat the things that happened during that week anymore, or what led up to that.  Or her “future bombing”.  Or your beautiful letter/Grand Gesture.

1stT, when you allow these things to happen and these questions to be asked and answered, let yourself love the questions.  It sounds like a dumb request, but please sit with this... .I am asking you to let yourself love the questions.  They are only about you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

guess you're saying I may not like the answer?

Look that would be great. It's like chasing a conundrum there is no answer. Cat did say that if you look at actions, not words you have your answer. Yet the answer from actions makes it hard to feel anything like forgiveness.

I'll try Gem you know that and I really appreciate where you are coming from. Sometimes it has felt like people have not understood the story and made me the bad guy but maybe that was just me jumping back and forth between blaming her and blaming me since I couldn't find an answer.

It's almost worse being here (one reason I did NOT want to open up to anyone right now) since on top of what I need to finish to have a life back again which I am back to doing without support/love I've now had the support/connection I finally had back in my life ripped away too. I didn't want to want/need anyone, I didn't have the emotional energy to spare. I told her that. She didn't care, she wanted it. So here I am with that severely depleted AND w/o her to turn to at the same time. I asked her not to ask man.

Anyway. Thank you.

I will repeat since you mentioned the 'simple note'; I do not regret the letter in terms of it having any effect on 'reconciliation'. If she was true somewhere in there it will matter to her, if she was not it will not. You said a flower would force her hand to tell me if she was with someone, I think the letter will force her to really see how she felt.

And yes, Skip's letter was my favorite Skip letter yet  I got where he was coming from finally.

Thanks as always for your support I think you were the first one to reply to my original post and let me know I was not out of line to react as I did to the way I was treated since I was blaming myself for that when I got here too.

1stT-
I have to say... .and I don’t share much with people, but there is more compassion here than I have seen from people, so called “friends” I have known for almost 50 years.  I am 60.  I have, for some reason been a magnet for NPD/BPDs... .I just never knew it.  I was known as “the happy idiot” by my family because I handled EVERYTHING with humor.  But I am no idiot.  Just a person who learned very early to forgive unforgivable behavior because as I recently learned, my own older sister has very STRONG BPD traits.  And she inflicted her cruelty on me since I was 11.

When I first came to this site, I didn’t post for a LONG time.  I read... .learned the tools to try and understand my uBPDbf’s behavior.  I read so many people’s posts and so many things were familiar to me, that I felt I could help in some way.  I didn’t realize at the time it was NOT ONLY because of BPDbf, but my experience with my sister... .

I want you to know, let me put it this way... .when I got out of my own way, and had to exit my relationship, actually did my own “deep dive” post and truly READ what people were telling me, I LISTENED.  I really had an Wow moment the other night.  And again... .it is SO important to reach out to others here.  To learn about the disorder, and about myself and my codependency.  I still have a lot to heal from... .I think you do, too. 

That’s what I meant about Skip’s question.  That is NOT about you not liking the answer.  I think we not only need to love the questions... .we need to love the answers.  They can surprise us.  There is that adage - “don’t believe everything you think”.

Everything I’ve learned here, I will take into my friendships, any future romance; but especially to help my beloved niece deal with my sister (her mom).

No, I don’t think coming here was “bad” for you.  You can see there are “friends” staying WITH you, so please  stay with us.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Hi Gem as always thank you.

I try to listen and read I really do. I've made a lot of progress and movement at least on my self. Some things I either resist and come to (e.g. Pearl had some great advice on my letter) which I at first rejected but when I woke up made total sense. I took Skip's advice to take a look at my own behavior. Some things I reject simply because with my hand-ons experience of what happened don't make sense to me (eg 'we see things differently' being anything but her trying to say I'd gotten her desire for a relationship wrong).

I will try to be more open to what I hear as I really do want to move past this. I'm clear it is not the girl herself.

I've figured out some parts of what I am feeling loss on. For instance I don't worry about her having sex with someone else. When I worry is when I imagine her apartment. And I realize that I've been living in such a toxic environment for years without a door to close and with conflict that I had basically for the first time in years a safe place; quiet, no one knew where I was, peaceful and the only other person in the apartment (apparently) thought the sun rose and set on me. And on the last day there the promise was that would be part of my future. And it was ripped away and that person acts like I never existed.

In any event I'll try to forgive myself but it is hard; I knew not to open my heart to this woman and I did. I knew to walk away from that 'I'd cheat on him' day at the bar, I sent a damn letter which said it all and walked away. And still I walked myself back in. I know I can and should forgive myself but it is hard.

On the response to the Grand Gesture I am having a really hard time. I know we call it a Grand Gesture but it was not some "My Heart Burns for You" love letter. It was a caring letter that said I appreciated you more than I was able to say, I know that hurt you and I am sorry, I've learned a lot about myself and if you want we can reconnect, not to pick-up where we left off, but to start again with a walk in the park and see what we have. That is not some "Say Anything" moment, it is sort of a distillation of what any reconnection would be. The girl wasn't reaching out to meet at 'our place' to discuss the weather.

In any event. She replied almost immediately, asked me to be available to her at an hours notice that week. I said yes. It is now 22 days. She is not calling. How horrible is that and how indicative of the entire relationship and the entire end. Utterly dismissive of me as a person. Utter discard.

Clearly she or she and her therapist decided there was no reason to meet and reconnect if she didn't want to reestablish a connection. And decided she should not reach out and eventually, in 3 weeks or 3 months, finally get it.

But since she'd already reached out, wouldn't a man she cared so much about who made such a clearly difficult and caring gesture deserve to not just be sitting around waiting and finally figure it out? It's like standing someone up and letting them stand in front of the restaurant until they finally realize no one is coming. It is mean and it is cowardly. I deserved far more. I deserved more than being made to feel like I 'got it all wrong' whether she planned on the cut-and-run, got scared and ran, or found someone better. I deserved to not be discarded without a word or explanation just because she got what she wanted after asking me for everything I had. I deserved to not have her reach out to meet me only to yank it away as if I'd done something wrong. But mostly with a gesture like that which is as caring a gesture as most people get in their lives, let alone one used to emotional belittlement and abuse, I deserved some caring and respect. "Hi I thought about it, I'm not ready to reconnect. I cared about you too and knew you cared about me. I think we should leave it at that".

Would that be so hard? Wouldn't it be better than letting a man you cared about swing in the wind after that? Wouldn't it be better than risking that he'd follow-up yet again since you'd given him enough hope and openings recently to believe he could and should?

You'd think I DID something to her. We didn't have a big blow-up fight and break-up. She ran. No one can say to her about contacting me "Hey this is the guy who slept with your SISTER" or "He BEAT you for God's sake what are you returning to?" or "You called me every day in tears after he tore you apart and made fun of your therapy" or "He borrowed ten THOUSAND dollars from you and never paid you back" or "He's a loser who slept on your couch while you worked all day and then expected sex and bad sex at that". What can anyone say to her to make me treat me with such disregard? "He didn't court you"? or "This is the guy who didn't come to your grandmothers renewal vows when you weren't dating yet"?

I'm stuck with WHAT DID I DO? What did I do to this girl to make her run for the hills and make believe I never existed? What did I do that even when her heart wants to see me she runs for the hills all over again? What did I do that this girl who said basically she wanted a life with me could treat two beautiful letters any woman in the same situation would kill for with such cold disdain? What did I do that she can have such little caring for me as person she cared so much about she can think it is ok to just decide to let me 'figure it out' on my own with my heart breaking?

Wouldn't a therapist tell her you need to text/email in him in no uncertain terms that it is over both for him and for you?

I'm not upset my Grand Gesture failed. If I'd gotten some closure out of it I'd be fine.  All I did with it was give her a chance to repeat the same contemptuous discard she did the first time. I did't deserve it then and I don't deserve it now and the real problem with it is it puts me now 3 weeks out of the discard instead of 3 months.

Hi 1stT-
Here is the feeling and how I describe it... .he was the wind and I was the wheat. 

You ask... .“What did I do?”  My friend... .all we can gather is that you followed her wishes EXACTLY as she seemed to express them.  Whatever took place between her ears is anyone’s guess and will remain a mystery!  But my guess is whatever took place in that space was likely nothing too deep OR mysterious. 

Then You sent a letter that expresses exactly what you felt you wanted to express to her.  Your beautiful letter stated all the things you have previously been unable to express.  And had she been a person with a more “balanced” mind, who sees more than darkness when she closes her eyes, she would have provided a more balanced response. 

But 1stT, my experience has taught me that sadly there IS no closure with a disordered mind.  And if you go about reading on the detaching board here, you will see a LOT of people who are experiencing deep pain over being discarded - some after short relationships, some after years of marriage, others just weeks BEFORE or weeks AFTER walking down the aisle.  And most being left with no answers... .only questions.  The primary ones being “what did I do?” And “why/how could she or he DO this?”

And most of us asking why we accepted what we accepted for as long as we did.  So as we discussed... .we are left with “us”.  If we do this right, We get better.  And sadly, they generally do not.

But you’ll also see signs of hope, healing, empathy, compassion and understanding of exactly what you’re feeling.  I do get that you may want to give yourself a bit of a kick in the tookus for being 3 weeks out rather than 3 months out, but you DID learn some things about yourself, true?  So please know that You are NOT alone in this place or on this journey.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

The last post I made is really zero-ing on my issue I keep chewing on; WHAT DID I DO?

What horrible thing did I do, what was so horrible about ME that a girl that went to such lengths to get me into her life and future ran like I had the plague and cut me from her life the moment I did. It's more than just 'got scared' of getting what she always wanted or got scared of all the things she future-bombed us with. Got scared would suggest settling down with the fear and reaching out for some contact, resolution, closure. Got scared would mean some happiness at my first letter, some emotion. The only thing that ever suggested 'Got Scared' was her happy text reply and her inviting me out and even her running back away ('can't make firm plans'.

So this is not 'got scared' because 3 months later we'd be talking, 3 months after not seeing or talkng to or touching the man you actually wanted to be with you'd have to reach out for him. This is... .turned off, turned away. Either I did SOMETHING unimaginably bad or she thinks she found out something unimaginably bad or someone is forcing her not to be with me.

But all I can ask mysel if WHAT DID I DO? A woman that doesn't find me attractive or see us together, I get it. But all that work for months and all that work for official ask and then discard? What. Did. I. Do?  "Never met anyone like you" and "you are one of the most handsome men I ever met" (not) and "best sex since I was 20" and "you are one of the closest people in my life" and "I want a relationship with you" and "I woke up so happy" (the day after I asked) and she expels me from her life. I'm just stuck with WHAT DID I DO? Even What is WRONG with me? Other than that single time she texted me and seemed so happy and so ready to reach out and see me in person I've gotten this super protected carefully constructed replies that are meant to not give a thing away it is like they are written by Spock.

What did I do and what is so terrifying? What is so horrible about what I did or she thinks she knows that would make her not only not just say 'look I can't do this can we still date casually and see' or 'look can we just be friends for now' (I'd have been fine with) but to utterly expel me and react almost in terror anytime we might meet?

Love it. Sorry didn't see your post before I posted my Extended What Did I Do.

I do really appreciate the support and caring here Gem, especially yours.

I do in fact have some in my offline line. My friend Tony who's advice has consistently (after having been through this 20 years ago) "No Contact" and "you can dissect it any way you want she is where she wants to be now and it is not with you".

Also spent some time talking to my female friend at my bar,  what an utterly amazing woman. She's movng away next month and in love with a new guy but thinks I am amazing too and just really shows me the kind of woman I want to be with. Smart, independent, strong, feminine, creative, supportive, appreciative. To this day she tells people when we meet how much my support of one her dance projects meant to her and to me how much it meant to her. In fact the day after this happened I was at my wine bar and she was there. had not talked in a while but she sensed something I guess. She came up and said 'wanna talk?" I said "nah long stupid girl story you don't want to hear". She said "I want to hear every word" and listened and has since.

I know the kind of woman I want.  I know and knew this woman was not even close on any level; intellectually, spiritually, morally, physically. I mean her guide to life is Sex in the City  and Fifty Shades of Grey.  When I told her how my ex bought me flowers and said "I want you in my lfe" after she had cut and run she said that was stupid women dont' buy me flowers, my friend at the bar thought it was beautiful. When I told her (in terms of man protecting woman) "I want to protect my woman, I just want to know when  I fall to my knees she picks up the sword in two hands stands against my back and says no one gets past me to you" this girl thought that was stupid too, my bar friend said "YES! Partners!". I get this woman was not for me. Ever. I just don't get anything else.

Apropos of nothing Gem but tangentially relevant; just had a really nice compliment from a male friend when we were discussing both this little girl (I really think she is 15 internally) and the bar girl in terms of the guy she is dating. He said "Yeah she may have left you for abusive jerk and yeah (bar girl) boyfriend might be rich but neither one of them is noble. You are Noble. Who finds noble anywhere anymore?" That was quite a wow compliment for me.

Healing is asking the right questions (or getting help with them).  *)

I think the meaningful question is, what happened between us? It's a little like reconstructing a traffic accident in court where 15 witnesses report what happened from their perspective and in their reasonable reality. It's like analyzing the Kennedy assassination film very carefully to truly understand what happened.

And then learning from it.

Two quick questions.

1. A simple request. Will you listen to the Tudor video?  I have a reason for asking you to do it.

2. Can you give us a brief, non editorialized, description of the relationship. We all know how things made you feel, but you can tell from comments that we have been confused as to whether this was an 18 months, 4 month, or 36 hour relationship. This is what I think you have told us, but I'm sure I don't have it exactly right. I've tried to follow... . Can you edit this (below) to make it accurate:

A. You were platonic friends for 14 months. She was interested in a romantic relationship, you were not. You didn't date, it was mostly running into each other occasionally at a wine bar and texting. B. You had a 1 sexual encounter and that lead to a 4 month causal relationship "more than platonic friends, less than exclusive dating" arrangement where you got to know each other on a more emotional basis. C. The "going steady" period (1 week? 10? days), where you decided to enter into an exclusive relationship and she wanted a formal commitment diner. D. And the "commitment dinner" and prelude where you had some conflict prior to the dinner, a highly romatic day after the dinner, and the "I don't want to do this" / "You opened my heart to other people" breakup and  NC. E. A letter confirming the breakup at 4 weeks NC. F. A re-connection text and letter/flowers at 8 weeks NC.

That's 150 words. Can you fix/embellish this chronology and limit that to 250 words - just a straight forward, factual/clinical (no editorial) encapsulation of the the relationship.

250 Words? I can hardly sign my name in under 300 but I'll try

I managed 400 words. I know not 250 but at least is a personal best :|

A. She asked for #  after meeting me and pushed for me to ask her on date. I accepted 'drinks'. She pushed for relationship after wards, I declined. Texted on and off for months, her pushing while we got closer.

B. She asked in Decmber 2017 if I was talking to other women she was not talking to other men. I said no, she said can we start-up when you get back. I said yes.  We had a 1 sexual (non-intercourse) encounter and that lead to a 4 month causal relationship "more than platonic friends, less than exclusive dating" arrangement where you got to know each other on a more emotional basis.

C. She pushed hard in a variety of push/pull ways over 4 months and especially over 3 week period between late March and mid-April for a serious relationship and made it clear I needed to ask her if I now also wanted exclusive like she had all along so 'she could be sure'. I did.

D. A 4-day period commenced where she not only asked me to confirm but once I had informed me nothing official until an Official Ask over dinnerm, a highly romantic night and day after the dinner, (albeit with highly conflicting/cycling emotions on her part). Much discussion on her part about our future together.

E. Asked me to meet next day (April 21st),told me I was great guy but wasn’t ready for committed relationship with me. Implied I had misunderstood what she wanted all along. I left angry, thanked her for opening my heart and said I’d go give it to somebody.

E. After no word from her for 3 weeks (Mothers Day May 12th) I sent nice letter telling her I missed her and wished her well and thanked her again for opening my heart. Controlled reply “thanks for the nice note hope you are well”

F. Saturday June 16th sent her nice semi-romantic text. Immediate happy reply also seemed to invite further contact (“talk to you soon?”). She followed up next day “Would you be interested to meet at our place soon?”. Ignored my reply for two days then said ‘lots happening. Can’t make firm plans”

G. Left a ‘letter’ telling her I had not appreciated her as I should have, inviting reconnection for walk in park or tea to see what was there on Tuesday June 26th at her building mid-day

H. Reply that very night “Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to talk truthfully. Perhaps this week? Would you mind if I reach to see if you are available an hour or so before I think may work for me?” I replied basically “Of course”. That was 3 weeks ago.

BTW the only reason I have ANY idea it was eighteen months is she would always tell me she knew the exact day we met, October 16th 2016. If she hadn't said that I would have had no idea except "a few months before my Birthday".

Thanks... .that helps.  A few months before your birthday? If that was the case, how long would it be?


You recently said you "called her on her stuff" and ended with "opening my heart" to share with someone else.  Was the note conciliatory but ending with the implication that "I'm moving on unless you fix this"  - or was it calling her on her stuff? Or something else?

Did you watch the Tudor video?   *)

I will watch Tudor this afternoon. I'm waiting for a stiff drink first

When I walked out I called her on her stuff "I knew this is what you'd do I knew this is what you were about when I met you. It is why I wouldn't date you then".

In the note on Mother's Day (I was highly triggered as she always told me she speaks to her sister, mother and grandmother about me they all know me by name and ask about me so assumed it would be part of discussion) I did not call her on anything or threaten her.

Told her I'd tried to figure out what happeend. Realized it didn't matter all that mattered was I was amazed at how much I missed her, how my heart would soar when I saw her name on my phone. How I was sorry I was not ready for what she had to offer. How perhaps in another life or time we'd both meet with open hearts and have something amazing. How I wished her the life and love she deserves. How I'd always remember her for opening my heart and it was a gift I could never repay but I hoped I'd given her something in return.

Again was amazed a) she replied at all (thought she hated me) b) her controlled reply and even at the time I said someone helped her construct it OR she wrote it because someone wsa monitoring her email and she didn't want to reveal it was a love letter she was replying to and c) that she did not reflect back to me the goodbye nature of my email and closed with 'hope you've been well'.

Damn, maybe her therapist things I'M the Narcissist/BPD person here and counseled HER to NC?

Anyway. Boxing now, Tudor in the afternoon. Thanks Skip.

Oh I just mean I'd have had no idea when we met if she hadn;t told me the exact date. My bday is late December. We got closer in the fall because she told me about how she needed to write a proposal to get a raise and I spent much time asking her qs about the situation and drafted a complete strategy and then the actual letter and followed up a lot to see the status.

Skip now that I did the overview I wanted to give you some Post-Mortem evidence that might (or might not) help:

Nature of the 4 Month "Relationship" aks "we see things differently"
You characterized it as "more than platonic friends, less than exclusive dating" but I think we both viewed it as more. She was very clear before we started in making sure that I was not only not seeing anyone but not even 'in contact' with anyone i.e. she didn't want to be one of a few prospects and assured me she was not. I found this attractive as it is how I date.

I think there might have been mismatches on how we saw this develop ("we see things differently" but I saw it as my taking it slow and her pushing relentlessly for more regardless. I never didn't consider it monogamous however, I've never done anything but.

And her entire 'gestalt' was just that; she wanted monogamous, committed relationship, looking to marry, was a one-man woman (we even once discussed three-some she said nope couldn't even think of two men she is one-man woman). She told me she hadn't had sex in many months I told her same (at least one of us was telling the truth).

All of her actions pointed to that; making me set of keys, clearing drawer space out, telling me she was falling in love with me, telling me we had our lives to figure it out, and especially sitting me down to tell me I needed to reconsider moving my life to cali to stay in NYC and be with her and buy a place and start a life.

And lastly her words were very specific; when she 'accidentally' told me about her 'dabbling' with the guy it was not coincidentally the day she told me I was going to ask her to be my girlfriend 'officially' and I just didn't know it, she followed up by telling me (to my surprise) that she had not been intimate with anyone since we were but had 'dabbled' and then told me she told me just to get me jealous because she wanted me to get that we belonged in a committed relationship and I was one of the most important people in her life

Point being as I saw it we had been in one and were moving slow, I guess she saw it as we were not and she was moving me towards it. I still find is specious that you can on one hand 'respect' we are not when you 'dabble' and on the  other hand ignore that we are not when you want to discuss our future. I get that one shouldn't assume they are in a relationshio without 'discussion' on the other hand I think one can assume when a person gives you keys to their apartment and space in their bedroom bureau they consider you to be.

Thus the 'we see things differently'. I think. Again i can get behind *perhaps* seeing keys/drawers differenlty but hard to see "I want to be in a committed relationship with YOU" as anything else but.

Her need to be asked
At some point she asked me to meet her to tell me something very important. It turned out she needed to tell me she was in therapy (for among other things black-out drinking) in large part because she had had an affair with her (rich) boss who told her to wait for him while his divorce was pending. Classic BS as he really meant don't touch anyone else's penis while he had sex with an endless stream of women that for various reasons she knew about initmately. So I can see her "If a man doesn't tell me I don't assume" since she spent God knows how long assuming she was in one while she was not and the guy just wanted her to himself.

I don't really buy that you can on one hand assume you are NOT until asked and meanwhile assume you ARE by givng keys and drawers and discussing where to live but I digress. Point is I get why she had that rule.

On not trusting my feelings
As you remember I pulled over 1/2 a dozen quotes just from The Text Exchange where she expresses in different ways she is unsure of the depth or sincerity or motivation of my asking. This is after I asked three times in three different ways (each time with a Yes!) AND confirmed the next day in a special trip she made for just that.

What I don' t have in the timeline I did for you is after I confirmed and after our text exchange, she asked me to come meet her so we could "setting this" (her need to be officially asked and my not trusting why). One thing she asked me was "are you asking just because I went out on a date" and I said no. This was basically the truth in terms of what she was asking. I wasn't asking because I was worried about her having sex with other men. I asked because I realized she did because I had not in fact opened up about having come to the realization I wanted more and that I had in fact assumed things and should not. Not that I wanted her to have sex with other men, I just mean it wasn't 'damn I don't want to do this but if it will make her not sleep around I'll do it" as much as "damn I shold have let her know and I need to step up and stop holding back".

But my point on this is given her being unsure of how sincere I was and that question AND her history with her boss, she could have been concerned I was in fact just another guy not interested in a relationship BUT wanting to make sure he could eat his cake too.

Note too on that day I said I do not want to ask if this is not what you want; if you needed to be 'uncommitted' because there is someone else, or you are unsure, or you need to get things out of your system than don't ask me to ask because it means it is not the right time to ask. She said there is no one else, I have nothing to get out of my system and texted me "Of course I am committed to you, I just can't wait for you to ask me again tomorrow night"

On my anger on The Day
My first thought was she set this all up. I had no other explanation for being practically whipped into committing, agreed to the future-bomb and then told 'you are a great guy' the next day. Because. When we had our first date which went well, chemistry, kissed, next day she said she thought I was so nice, handsome, wanted a committed monogamous relationship I said VERBATIM "I think you are a great girl too, but I'm not ready for a committed relationship right now". Which is EXACTLY what she said to me (guy instead of girl). It felt like the ultimate set up. I had no other way to explain it.

With a few days distance I realized that was not likely but also was waiting for her to reach out and tell me what the f had happened. She never did.

On my first letter
Maybe phrasing it as a goodbye made no sense but Skip I had no experience with any of this, discard most especially. I was in utter raw shock over how fast it went from future to disappearance without a word or text or email from a girl I'd texted almost daily for a year plus. I assumed a) she either hated me or b) she had played me or c) she want back to Dom. I figured I'd lost her. So instead of some angry letter decided to just end with something nice vs the anger of the last time we met.

On how Tragic it is
I think we both aimed for the same thing and missed because of our own stuff. I think she pulled her 'jealousy' thing to close the deal and it set up a lot of mistrust in not just her but WHO she was in me and colored the rest of my interaction (see our text exchange).

She had the Jealousy Conversation the same day I was going to have the Be My Girlfriend Conversation. Which made me not want to ask her.

She thought I finally came around and asked her because I didn't want her to touch anyone's junk which is a lousy reason to ask for a committment and I asked her because I realized I should have asked her and she had a right to do so and I needed to treat her like a girlfriend and give to her that part of me completely. Which is what she wanted.

Our dinner was not about us agreeing to not have sex with other people, that was not part of my motivation. It was so I could open myself up and give myself to her the way she wanted and we could see what we had when I had both feet in as she did.

Anyway I don't know if this sheds light on anything for post-mortem maybe it is just floatsom around the dead body.

My own "guess" here is she has not written me a "look I don't want to reconnect" text because she processing. If she did go back to soul-crushing emotionally abusive Dom and left because she thought I never really cared about her, that revalations and tone and grace of letter has to be a huge amount of processing to do. It isn't just returning to me it is a major shift in life choices isn't it?

That is not an encouraging analogy. We have 1000 theories, several movies, endless # of books, conspiracy theories, a man on the grassy knoll and still no one knows. Also am I JFK, Oswald or Jakie O here? Or all of them? :|

Did you watch the video?

If you mean the 1:50 clip of the House of Horrors narrator yes just now. I'm not sure if your point is I am a furious narcissist :| or to point out that her behavior is no where near this.

I'll tell you one reason I am curious to see your 'take' on this is because you have been consistent in trying to get me to see I should not let fear push me to detach for various reasons including that often people do so and are in the wrong frame of mind then when the other reaches out. Leaving the likening me to a scared horse post aside :| that has been a pretty consistent them of yours; staying with the gesture/bettering and not running from fear of rejection/hurt. So I wonder if you see some hope in this. I mean I'd hope if you saw signs of real BPD/NPD danger you'd gently prod me to detach, but I'm sorta guessing from the video that you're trying to point out I've painted her with a brush that doesn't fit and might be closer in the grey>white than the black>grey scenario.

Those are two valid conclusions you could make from that video.

There are others. Junk psychology doesn't make us smarter.

The point I want to make is that when you do your postmortem, apply the same rules to your evaluation of yourself that you are applying to her, and vice versa. That is a pretty good check and balance. You haven't been doing that - your response about the video demonstrates that.

You make a case that she has issues because she hasn't has a serious boyfriend in 10 years. You haven't had a serious girlfriend either.  You make a case that she is BPD/NPD. Applying that same analysis level, a case can be made that you are NPD... .emotionally unavailable, entitled, limited empathy skills, lashes out when ego wounded without thinking of consequences... .has blue touch paper in your pocket... . 

I was saying, its important to get in the center of your reality and emotions. (I'm not saying your are HD Tudor, btw).

Your postmortem above is the most advanced thing you have written. Good progress!

You asked what I think. I think this is much less a case of anyone being abused and more a case of two people with high and rigid expectations of the other and you both failed to reach the others expectations. Bowen (Bowens Family Theory) largely defines the driver of emotional immaturity as unrealistic expectations.

I think you both feel let down and mistreated by the other.

She appears to have wanted what every girl wants, deep down... .a Cinderella romance. And while you have often said you gave her what she wanted, I think you actually didn't. I suspect that is what she realized in that 36 hours. She wanted to be the love of your life and embark on a fairy-tale journey... .the lead-up to the dinner was that... .you didn't see her the way she wanted to be seen.  She didn't abuse you... .You didn't reach her expectations.

You wanted something equally complicated... .you wanted to be lifted out of your "less than fulfilling life on your mothers living room sofa and no bedroom door"... . a rising like what almost happened in California. You didn't abuse her... .she didn't meet your expectation.

Yes, she really hurt your feeling by changing course. Yes, you really let her down in you guarded (and somewhat testy) lead up to the dinner and most likely in something that happened that day.

This is what you are saying above, but tied to the theme of each of your emotional handicaps at the time of t he relationship.

Where is it now? I suspect she is conflicted and in the 30-40% category regarding revising the relationship.  I'm not sure what percentage you are, but its probably in the 50-60% range.  You can correct me on this, I'm just setting up a model for you to use.

If you could relieve the time before the dinner, being excited about it with her would have made a difference for her.  If you could relieve the "I'm not ready for a committed relationship with you", you could have asked why and hugged her through it.  You didn't because you were struggling with her not meeting your expectations.

No fault here.

So now what?

I think you either write this off as "lessons learned" and do some healing and growth work here or recalculate where you are with your almost gf and do some healing and growth work here.

But whatever you do... .stay centered.

I'm not sure how it doesn't. I asked if it showed I was a narcissist and she was not the monster I painted her out to be. Or are you saying the full analysis would be it showed she was a narcisist and I'm not the monster I made myself out to be? I am confused.

I haven'te because of serious familys issues and as a man in NYC it is virtuall impossible to date with very limited means and w/o a Central Park West Condo let alone your own place. She has had endless opportunities to date. In any event not even sure what she means by that, she dates the dom who broke her heart and whom she is most likely with now.

Possibly you could reading my story/replies, yet in my real life almost eveyrone I know, family and friends and especially women love talking to me precisely because I am a good listener, have great empathy, give great advice and am gentle and giving. Go figure. Clearly I need to work on empathy when I'm involved in the equation however.

.
Hmm. I never said I gave her a Cinderalla Romance. Not close. I didn't imply that and I actively resisted it. I think as I said the tragedy is she thought I was committing to get her to not sleep with men, I was committing because I realized I had pushed her to that and wanted to see what we had when I gave that part of myself. Clearly I should have been clearer when I said to her 'we want to see what we have when we are both committed'. I meant me as much as her and me giving her the man/romance/courting. She clearly didn't understand that and that is my fault.

I suspect that is what she realized in that 36 hours. She wanted to be the love of your life I'm still sorry sticking with pushing someone to give parts of themself they say are very hard to, working that furiously to get it, tossing it aside the next day and asking them to pretend you just misunderstood is abusive.

That said, perhaps her Future Bomb was all testing; to see how I responded to them. The night before in fact (at the restaurant) when she was drinking Whiskey with me for the first time (her drink, her blackout drink in fact) when she said 'now let's drink MY drink' she started talking about the backroom in the restaurant as where we'd have our engagement party. I asked her why she does that (since endlessly being asked about marriage, buying places, not moving to california, etc starts to become to me disrespectful of my own boundaries especially when it is premature) and she said "I do that to men to see how they react". So maybe I failed Future Bomb.  Still even then quite a landmine to traverse from a woman who just told you she is terrified of committing to be in a committed relationship the night before. Are they... .trick questions?

.
She only didn't meet my expectations by pulling the rug out from under me, using the same exact phrase I did when I rejected her, and never called me again. I was fully prepared to see what we had when I gave her every part of me without withholding. I still think it is sad/tragic I didn't communicate that better so we got a chance to see what 'we' were like. But other than not being the love of my life which I never expected her to be she didn't let me down except at the end (and since). Sorry, I think I 'deserved'... ..something. If that makes me an entitled narcissist so be it

Yep I was testy. I was totally not trusting the girl at that point. And I should have stuck with my not-so-nice-letter which while not so nice hit the crux of the matter and not asked a girl out whose entire lifeview I didn't trust at that point. But yes Skip, having done so I should have been more understanding of her light-hearted 'are you looking forward to it' and even her 'You still have to ask to be my gf". I know that 100%. By then I read that as "I'm taking 4 days to take advantage of the technicality I already made you aware of" since... .I didn't trust her. The whole 'I'd cheat on him if I dated him' and the whole 'dabbled' with someone after giving me keys and drawers was spinning in my head already night and day. So I was in no good place to be light and supportive. I guess learning to being empathetic when Iare also emotionally involved would be a good toolset to add to my arsenal.

On revising the relationship sure  On revisiting it I'd put my real level at 20% tops. That is based on how I felt at her at best and my limited trust in her. Not just the fidelity stuff but the lack of concern for my well-being since. I think I was just as hurt as her and have tried to give her solace, appreciation and even closure. I'm well over 50% wanting her to reach out though. Well over 50% wanting to see each other in person.

I can't begin to estimate where she is. She has given me nothing to work with except her 'slip-up' at the unexpected text and her inviting me out which she quickly rectified and her immediate reply to the GG which she did as well. If I add up all the things she said whilst together and take them at face value, her careful replies and her slip-ups and her extreme care at giving away zero emotion which I take as meaning she has a lot and what I said in GG I'd put her at... 52.453245234%.  Seriously no idea.

And, again, I'm sorry that due to our various insecurities we didn't get to try 'us' with me being fully present and giving. Clearly there was something real there underneath both of our stuff, the fact I'm still her and she clearly has some desire to reach out shows that.

Absolutely I could have when she started showing some hesitation. At the time it just seemed like yet another hurdle and I didn't get it. Or her.  I wasn't being the slightest bit empathetic. I should have said 'of course I'm looking forward to it I can't wait to have our first date and treat you like my lady". When she said 'you still have to ask me to be your gf" I could have said "I can't wait to ask you and can't wait to hear you say yes I'm counting the days". Or some such. I know man.

I was super excited when I invited her Skip.  She didn't ask for an Official Dinner. I said after asking her to be 'my one and only' "Let's start over on Friday. I'll take you on a real date to a great place and we'll have our first date as a real couple. Heck I'll even ask you again over a bottle of wine!" I even sent her the Open Table reservation confirmation which said "Purpose: Date Notes: Please give us the most romantic table in the house".

And the other hand on the night of the dinner I went all out. I did the 'M'lady' email to let her know I'd be picking her up which she didn't expect, escorted her to the car, held the door, helped her in, took her to one of the places she always wanted to go, walked her to the table, held her chair. I gave her the night she wanted in my arms and woke her up kissing her cheek. I gave her the night she wanted and was fully in it.

I could have if I were a saint or in a much better place about both her and myself. Most people who have heard/read the story understand fully my response and think I went easy  on her. I think both Gem and Once Removed replied to the original story telling they understood fully my response. But I have considered a much stronger response would have been to take a breath and do just that and maybe something good could have come out of it. What blows my own mind about my own reaction; I wrote myself an email the night before predicting her next day conversation. I didn't expect her to put the onus on me but I wrote an email that said "Her: I don't think I can go through with this". I SHOWED it to her when she started talking. I said I knew you would do this. I had it ready to show her. The question is, being FULLY prepared for her to do so, why didn't I prepare a better response, get myself, get this, centered and figure out how I was going to handle it/her.

And again part if it is the loss/betrayal; I had simply asked her for months to not ask me for those parts of myself I couldn't spare and asked her all last week to not ask if she wasn't ready. So even being prepared I was not prepared for how she did it. I absolutely need to learn how to count to three or ten especially when I know I have huge triggers and yes, I could have and should have, knowing how frightened she was and expecting her to back off figured out how to give her some support and space. I know all this. I just didn't KNOW all this.

I think it says a lot I have done so much work to figure out where I let her down and how and to address it. I don't see any work on her part to understand... .anything. To reach out and give me a word of solace knowing I must be confused and hurt. To return an IOTA to me on any letter I've sent. Even recently to do me the slightest human courtesy having cared for me knowing I'm sitting here waiting and likely in pain, confusion, agony.

Well I have no other choice. I've as I said opened my heart again and also realize I need to get out of the environment I am in forthwith. Even if it means letting my mother/family are for themselves and even if I have to take a huge hit on my 'Big Plans' for my business if it means I can go find a nice peaceful place and life to live and not be under constant attack/conflict and learn how to engage people in a normal way again.

Just curious what you think the chances she reaches out again are? For some reason, I put them at very high. For some reason, I trust that what she felt was real not just some 'pattern' she had, that her happiness at my text and her reaching out to meet and even my Grand Gesture really hit her hard. I really get the feeling the reticence to meet and the Spock-like replies hide a fear of how she'll feel when she sees me. Something exists here.  I mean I'm still here. Her gut reaction after 60 days was to ask me to meet at our place.

I don't know Skip if I want a romantic relationship with her but you know what? I'd like her back in my life. It is really what I meant by 'a walk in the park or tea for two'. We had something nice and something real and I can likely deal with her seeing someone since I was fine with it up to March of this year before it all went awry.

I wonder if I just wait for her to one day walk back in my life? Or not? I was thinking of a letter (I know I know) something like:

Hi. Not reaching out to pressure you at all. Just to say that I did mean what I said about 'whenever' and 'until then'. I'm simply saying... .I am here for you. There is always a place in my life and heart for you regardless of what we are to each other. That's why I said 'a walk in the park of tea for two'. Simply put; I like you and I liked you in my life. I'm here when and if you want me in yours, no pressure, no conditions, no expectations.

Skip in light of your post-mortem (parts of which I agree with for sure, and instead of saying parts of which I don't I'll say parts of which I'll continue to process) may I ask if you think then the Grand Gesture hurt, helped or made no difference?  If her whole issue really was "I want to be special to him and I'm not" I feel sort of like I did before; that her pullback after her desire to meet me could only be accompanied by 'why go see him if he never really liked me in the first place?" and now the GG gives her an entirely unexpected point of view to assess... .everything. Why I held back. Why I asked her. How I felt. How I've grown. Not saying she didn't move on since then or even read my first letter and say 'Ok well on top of everything he has moved on and said goodbye so... .' but if she really wanted 'that' GG should have been good not bad. It would just be a huge amount of information to process/reprocess/recalibrate. Possibly too little too late but still better than just reach out to ask the same guy out and realize next day 'what the hell is the point of that?'.

I did say 'whenever' and 'until then' so maybe she re-read it and took me at my word.

Stay centered. Don't be rigid in your thinking. Remember, two people can be in a relationship  (or a car accident) and have vastly different and equally valid perspectives on what happened. It is OK for this dichotomy to exist - a relationship cognitive dissonance, if you will.


Think really hard on this. Get as centered as you can because this really drives what you do next. If your interest in saving the relationship is 20%, move on. Let go of the "well over 50%" wanting to see her.  That's the mature thing to do. Walk away if it is under 50%.

I can say with certainty, she is not at 52.4%.  If she was, you would have heard from her.  If she is in the 40%s , its is going to take some reaching out to connect. If she is is the <30%, nothing will help. If she was less than 30%, she probably would have ignored you. Based on the fact that you sent two conciliatory notes, I think it is clear that if you want to take another run at this, you will need to win her. I'm not saying to do this, I'm just trying to paint the reality of these situations in general.

******
I know. From what you have said, however, it looks like this is what she was wanting. She is entitled to be a women and decide what she wants and what she will accept.  You mentioned that she was conflicted  somewhat on the day after the dinner. It sure sounds like she was thing, "well he's giving his all now and I really need more than this".

Staying centered... .

It's actually a thing that women do... .love is fragile... .you guys were finally engaging it... .and it just wasn't right, somehow.

You might have been able to reassure here and keep things going, but that's not what happened.

Staying centered... .

You didn't want any of this (Cinderella Romance). It was annoying to you. You were not at all infatuated. You look down at her in a lot ways - appearance, morals, mental health, etc. To you, she was OK, or pretty good, or growing on you. When you say you were giving her what she wanted  - that says a lot.

It's valid to feel that way. You don't need to be someone your not to please other people.  And after she placed you on a pedestal (her style of flirting), when she pulled it away and said never mind, that stung. When someone is chasing us and valuing us, it feels pretty good - but if things don't eventually balance, things often crash.

So... .

It's legitimate or her to feel conflicted, let down, and in that "maybe, maybe not" place. The pedestal tipped over the day after the dinner, the anger kicked it down further, and extended no contact even more. From her perspective, the fact that she is even talking to says a lot.

It's legitimate for you to see her as demanding,  "not your princess" and flawed, and hurtful.  She was.  The same behavior from someone else may have felt like heaven to you - but not from her.

Does this make sense?

Man I don't know the #. I know I'm still here every day and still think about it each day. I guess knowng why would help. A lot is the sting of having it removed, a lot is not being 'worshipped'. But I'd also gotten to where I thought if I put my guard down and gave back what I was getting we might in fact have something really nice.

Well I am unclear how to 'win' her. I can't very well reach out again. I'll repeat I think her most genuine response was my surprise text (not email) and invite. So do I trust that she might be processing this and the reason she neither reached out nor replied 'hey look never mind' to shut me down completely is that she is processing? Or is each passing day just a day in the rear-view mirror? I'd have no idea how to reach out now. That 'speak truthfully' seems to speak volumes given the 3 weeks however.

I'm sitting her thinking she is sitting with this since it is a pretty serious decision based on GG to reach out; if she really felt like she said and really ran because she didn't think I liked her, and really reached out in text because she still had feelings and really pulled back because she "remembered" i didn't really like her then doesn't that GG make reaching out a huge deal if she does? I mean it isn't 'hey how've you been?' (and I don't think inviting me to our place was for that) it's literally reaching out to someone you wanted something serious with who has said I did TOO and am ready which is a Big. Decision. So is it just mental masturbation to think she needs some time to really figure that out? I mean now the whole Committed Relationship takes on a whole new meeting if I am too right?

She could have just thrown it in her drawer and forgotten about it for all I know.

So does this mean I have three choices:

1) Just move the f on. Harder for me than her cause I don't have women asking me out left and right. She may or may not be able to replace me or what she felt but she can have a person. I cannot right now.

2) Not move on and 'hope' she replies? That seems pretty lame and puts me in the same limbo I lived in for years anyway. So that seems a bad choice. It is the start of week 4. She can't think I'm still waiting for the 'I've got a free hour now' call?

3) Make some other move. I'd have no idea what. Some funny text? "Hey I really need to pee so if you're not planning on calling let me know?" (kidding). This sounds like bad option too especially in light of her 'speak truthfully'.

I guess I really only have one choice and that is move on. I don't see how to make 3 work. My only play I see is the one I had at end of my last post where I take the pressure off her entirely on any romance just open door for friendship if she wants. And see what transpires.

Something happened before dinner. She was weird AT dinner. She did the whole 'before you ask' and "Just listen. Don't talk. I am terrified". She was on edge. She was on edge all day even with the future bomb. Affectionate, mean, short, nice. She did the whole 'so now you're the one who... .God puts people in our life for a reason'. And I'll repeat she told me that day that she'd bumped into Dom Ex the day of our dinner and almost cancelled. Almost cancelled the Official Dinner. Big Deal. Because she was crushed and it turned out she had real feelings for him (she said same thing about me). That plus 'God puts people in our life for a reason' leads me to believe she was a mess dinner night and that day beause she realized she was going back to him and because he'd already almost destroyed her AND because her friends said don't even tell us if you do.

I don't think I did anything wrong at dinner or that night or day. I don't think it was me. 5 days before she was ecstatic about introducing me to her whole family. I think he came back into her life, I think that is why she bombed us the very next day. She saw him that night (after we parted ways). There would be no other reason to back out that fast and she had ample opporitnity after our text exchange to back out I gave her every chance she did NOT take it. All I did after her not taking it was take her on a great date, treat her like a lady make love to her hold her in my arms and tell her she was beautiful. I don't think it was not enough, I think she'd realized no matter how much she tried to plan a future with me she was not going to be able to resist going back to him.

This is my honest take on it and it just fits. She didn't have some revalation about being with me between Tuesday and Sunday or Friday and Sunday. He showed up on Friday afternoon before Friday dinner. And she realized she was going back. She wanted a man who made her call him Mr and Sir (which she tried to call me) she wanted to be controlled by an older man who told her what to do and when. She wanted Daddy. I'm not Daddy.


Again I think it was before dinner. I think it as DomEx. She was weird from the moment we got to the place. By then I think she knew she was out.

Yeah I find her talking to me quite interesting. I find her texts quite interesting. I find her protective replies the same and her fear of meeting the same. I find the fact we both circle after 3 months interesting. My gut tells me there is a lot inside her for me still and I think she knows seeing me will resurface all of that.

Total sense. But also came to the concluson at some point if i wait for the magic I had in California again I might day in front of my laptop all alone. Connection, affection, support, sexual chemistry, those are good things too even if not Hollywood.

Really now conflicted on next step.

Waiting means I need to totally let go and move on, if she ever returns she does I deal with it then.

Reaching out mean I need to find some way to... .reach out. To a girl who is either sitting on something that she knows replying to is a Big Step. Or to a girl who put it in her drawer and moved on. Either way is fraught with danger and more to the point is HOW? Flowers no, gesture no. Pressure no. There is just no way to push it as I see it except to hope that in fact my words are in her heart and she finds her way to me and we see.

No, she actually said by text, email and in person she really liked the new way I was treating her. Seriously dinner didn't ruin it, it was something that happened before dinner, I keep saying I missed something big because she went haywire. When I went to her place Thursday to talk about whether we were going to do this she was fully on board, no conflict, texted me right there so I;d have it 'Of course I am committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me tomorrow' and in fact got MAD I'd cancelled in the first place. She wanted that dinner and me. It was what happened Friday with him. 1000% commited to diner, then anxious and distracted at dinner, conflicted all day we are together until we part in afternoon, spends night with him, meets me next morning (!) to tell me we are done? That was not from bad dinner or night.

What did you think of this as a reach out if I am actually good and centered and want to reconnect as friends.

i. Not reaching out to pressure you at all. Just to say that I did mean what I said about 'whenever' and 'until then'. I'm simply saying... .I am here for you. There is always a place in my life and heart for you regardless of what we are to each other. That's why I said 'a walk in the park of tea for two'. Simply put; I like you and I liked you in my life. I'm here when and if you want me in yours, no pressure, no conditions, no expectations.

How do you imagine it might be if you reach out to her? Say she agrees to see you and suddenly you two are in a relationship; how do you see that working out?

It can be really troubling sitting with uncertainty. But you do know how you feel about her in some areas: you’re concerned that she’s not emotionally healthy; you think that you don’t share some values about monogamy; you don’t feel like you’re in love with her.

But she has hurt you by cutting off contact when you offered your heart to her.

What about this relationship makes you want to pursue her? And if you do, how do you see this playing out in the future?

Cat, the answer, of course, is if we are suddenly in a relationship it works out horribly. She lies and cheats and does another cut-and-run or devalue/discard and I end up back here or worse.  Even during good times she is a bad partner because she doesn't really care about my needs or even who I am just her needs at any given time. If she did return to me now it would be because it is something she needs and whatever she needed when she left me high and dry she no longer needs. But as long as she has what she needs whatever pain or confusion I'm in don't matter a whit, whatever gestures I've made to try to provide HER with succor and closure and love and appreciation. Those mean notihng since she doesn't need them now. So I don't exist. Yes, not the partner I want or need.

Skip's analysis when you get to the core of it is for all intents and purposes how I summarized it for him initially... A little nicer to me perhaps but at the core the same entirely incorrect story which will only get me hurt if I internalize it since it has none of the lessons I need to take from it.

The girl didn't leave after getting what she wanted because she 'suddenly' realized she wasn't getting the fairy-tale she hoped and then stay away because she was hurt by my anger. That is the most benign take on a CLASSIC BPD I have read. Not a person who has hear my story doesn't not get that I was dealing with a hugely damaged woman. She had not only every chance to walk away up to the day of the dinner, she had every chance to let ME walk away when I did so. I said as much in the scathing letter "I believe you were trying to push me away by telling me those things and if you had just been honest with me about what you wanted or didn't want anymore, we might still be friends".

I am NOT NPD, not a behavior in my life supports that and more to the point the way people and women turn to me for my kindess, support and empathy all support that.

If I am to come out of this whole the lessons I need to take are:

1) When someone ignores your boundaries repeatedly because they put thier needs ahead of yours then end the relationship. Because you are in a a bad one. This girl did that (and to a disturbing degree) from the beginning to the end. Putting her needs above mine has continued since she discarded me.

2) While I need to learn to control my emotions when I am feeling reactive, to take a step back and listen and look and be with what I'm feeling, I need more than anything to LISTEN.   Because my reactive self which I may need to get under control of is freakishly accurate at assessing reality.

- I wasn't being 'testy' in my text exchange. My instincts were SCREAMING at me that this girl was full of s***, that she was a liar, that her views on fidelity were haywire and more importantly that she was either hugely conflicted or plain old not planning on entering a relationship. The entire exchange is me saying just that as was our face to face to  'hash it out'.

- I wasn't being 'reactive' when I left her apartment the first time she wanted me to stay ove. I looked down at her sleeping and KNEW and I RAN. For the hills. The letter I wrote her while 'reactive' was spot-on in my analysis

Here's an example of reactive self which I buttoned up the one time; at her apartment towards the end of the day I stepped in front of her and kissed her (because she'd already said you never kiss me first). She had been texting and she blushed which I mentioned. She said 'what do I look like when I blush?' (?) and I almost said the first thing that popped in my mind: "You get that guilty look on your face like you have now". Because she was texting someone. My instincts and my 'reactive' self are critical to my survival.

I ignored my instincts at every turn and ignored them even as they revealed themselves to be right simply because I was terrified of being alone and of exactly what I said in my letter to her; I was horrified that I'd 'almost' given my heart to a woman that was the exact opposite of whom she presented and who I wanted and I knew in my heart it was probably too late. I mean once you give your heart you cant just turn it off. Having written the letter I should not have agreed to meet her so 'God could guide our words and hearts' because God was most decidedly not in that room. She is right: "You went from not wanting anything to do with me to wanting to be with me". i returned her key to her doorman for a reason. Not because I was a 'scared man' but because I was a smart and BRAVE one.

I had every right to be upset when she slept with somoene else, whether or not we 'had the talk' or not. Someone can't ignore your boundaries to not have a relationship and give you keys to their place and say I want you to treat this like your home, give you drawer in their bedroom and say I want you to start moving in, chastise you for not nursing them back to health when they have the flu, tell you 'we have our lives to figure it out', make you discuss staying in the city you hate for THEM, and then tell you when they cheat 'well you said you didn't want a relationnship'. More to the point and for myself, my instincts on that were right too, legalize about whether it was "right" or not aside; a woman who has just had an amazing sexual experience with a man she really wants a future with and has given keys and drawers to doesn't THINK about inviting another man up just because technically she can. She doesn't WANT to. The fact she does speaks volumes either about her morality or he actual feelings and I KNEW that (thus the scathing letter I sent).

A woman who says "I'd cheat on him if I dated him" would cheat on anyone and knows it and it speaks to morality and promiscuity issues that boggle the mind.

A girl who starts a relationship confirming that not only are not seeing anyone but not even speaking to another woman romantically can't tell you 1/2 through it that 'if a man doesn't say he wants a monogamous relationship I assume we are not in one'. She has used that bs I'm sure for 15 years to break men's hearts. On the night of our date she for some reason decided to show me a text from her friend who was according to her an (abusive) ex from 10 years ago she does NOT hook up with but has drinks with once a month (she actually asked me for permission to see him once a month platonically when she was future bombing). The text was in response to his asking her to have drinks and her saying 'Sorry I have plans'. His text: "What the ___ does that mean?". Not sure why she showed me (I have a clue now) but she explained it that she never has plans so he was amazed. What BS. It was a guy who thought he had an exclusive relationship with her, wanting to know what th F "I have plans meant". She either wanted me to know/intuit it or more likely has done this so long she is truly clueless about her behavior.

Not a serious relationship in 10 years? I'll bet there are a string of men that thought the were in one with her while she slept around telling herself she was not. Heck when she came by when she was seeign Dom (who it turns out she had real feelings for) and told me she was not supposed to be talking to me (becuase he's a confident alpha male and all) she STILL asked me to meet her for drinks. Likely because even though he forbid her to talk to other men he never said he wanted a monogamous relationship :|

If I take from this that I might have NPD, that I have no empathy skills, that she just left because she realized she wasn't the light of my life after eighteen months on that single night and that my hindsight take away should have been a) to be more supportive and understanding of her inane 'I'm not your gf' text exchange and b) to hold her and hug her when she said after the 18 month campaign the precise thing I said to reject her at the begining (and I mean verbatim) to reject me then I am going to walk around with a giant BPDs! Kick Me sign on my back.

I never dated a BPD or NPD, I never dated a lying faithless woman before, I never dated a woman who couldn't care less about where I was in my life just what she wanted, I never dated a woman or HEARD of one before this who could walk out of my life like I was a bathroom stall and then treat such heartfelt gestures with such utter contempt. Make no mistake she knows what she is doing. Ignoring my letters would have been nicer, saying 'Sorry I'm seeing someone' would have been too.  Effecitvely ignoring the entire content and context of what I said, the import, basically saying 'thank you for the nice thought' as she might to an unwanted suitor was intentionally hurtful. It invalidated everything that happened between us, it invaldiated and trivilaized my feelngs as it was meant to. Promising to reach out as long as I was available at the precise hour she deigned to make for me was contemtuous and never following up was cruel. As they were meant to be Why? Because the woman is classic NPD/BPD which anyone in the world seems to be able to see.

I've asked other experts on other boards, their advice was and is No Contact and yes her behavior is classis. I have nothing to apologize to this girl about.  Not running the night I didn't stay over, not returning her key, not the scathing letter, not the 'testy' exchange. For effen God's sake I didn't own a girl who gave me keys and drawers a request to have a committed relationship, let alone doing it so romantically, let alone wasting a lunch time to confirm it for her and her therapist, let alone engaging in that inane 15 year old discussion, let alone a beautiful dinner where I TREATED her like Cinderalla (which from her response she'd never even experienced before) and made asking her for the very relationship she acted like we were in for a year The Most Important Question in The World. Like some inane conflation of Sex in the City, The Bachelor and 50 Shades of Grey (yes I was asked to bring a bluetooth vibrator to have fun with at the table). And then get treated like some FWB that got it all wrong.

This is not me being extreme Skip, THIS is me being centered. This is me taking the lessons from this situation that will allow both to survive and to love. I get I also need to get out of my current situation and re-learn how to deal with conflict and not trigger so fast or emotionally. But I am not even close to being NPD and what I really needed to learn from this was to listen to my goddamn instincts and to get that when I am being reactive it is my radar on full alert. All I need to do is step back then and calmly deal with the claxon. Instead of running into walls I need to calmly say 'Everyone please calmly head for the exits in an orderly fashion'. The Exit. That is my lesson here.

-

Cat, the answer, of course, is if we are suddenly in a relationship it works out horribly. She lies and cheats and does another cut-and-run or devalue/discard and I end up back here or worse.  Even during good times she is a bad partner because she doesn't really care about my needs or even who I am just her needs at any given time. If she did return to me now it would be because it is something she needs and whatever she needed when she left me high and dry she no longer needs. But as long as she has what she needs whatever pain or confusion I'm in don't matter a whit, whatever gestures I've made to try to provide HER with succor and closure and love and appreciation. Those mean notihng since she doesn't need them now. So I don't exist. Yes, not the partner I want or need.

Skip's analysis when you get to the core of it is for all intents and purposes how I summarized it for him initially... A little nicer to me perhaps but at the core the same entirely incorrect story which will only get me hurt if I internalize it since it has none of the lessons I need to take from it.

The girl didn't leave after getting what she wanted because she 'suddenly' realized she wasn't getting the fairy-tale she hoped and then stay away because she was hurt by my anger. That is the most benign take on a CLASSIC BPD I have read. Not a person who has hear my story doesn't not get that I was dealing with a hugely damaged woman. She had not only every chance to walk away up to the day of the dinner, she had every chance to let ME walk away when I did so. I said as much in the scathing letter "I believe you were trying to push me away by telling me those things and if you had just been honest with me about what you wanted or didn't want anymore, we might still be friends".

I am NOT NPD, not a behavior in my life supports that and more to the point the way people and women turn to me for my kindess, support and empathy all support that.

If I am to come out of this whole the lessons I need to take are:

1) When someone ignores your boundaries repeatedly because they put thier needs ahead of yours then end the relationship. Because you are in a a bad one. This girl did that (and to a disturbing degree) from the beginning to the end. Putting her needs above mine has continued since she discarded me.

2) While I need to learn to control my emotions when I am feeling reactive, to take a step back and listen and look and be with what I'm feeling, I need more than anything to LISTEN.   Because my reactive self which I may need to get under control of is freakishly accurate at assessing reality.

- I wasn't being 'testy' in my text exchange. My instincts were SCREAMING at me that this girl was full of s***, that she was a liar, that her views on fidelity were haywire and more importantly that she was either hugely conflicted or plain old not planning on entering a relationship. The entire exchange is me saying just that as was our face to face to  'hash it out'.

- I wasn't being 'reactive' when I left her apartment the first time she wanted me to stay ove. I looked down at her sleeping and KNEW and I RAN. For the hills. The letter I wrote her while 'reactive' was spot-on in my analysis

Here's an example of reactive self which I buttoned up the one time; at her apartment towards the end of the day I stepped in front of her and kissed her (because she'd already said you never kiss me first). She had been texting and she blushed which I mentioned. She said 'what do I look like when I blush?' (?) and I almost said the first thing that popped in my mind: "You get that guilty look on your face like you have now". Because she was texting someone. My instincts and my 'reactive' self are critical to my survival.

I ignored my instincts at every turn and ignored them even as they revealed themselves to be right simply because I was terrified of being alone and of exactly what I said in my letter to her; I was horrified that I'd 'almost' given my heart to a woman that was the exact opposite of whom she presented and who I wanted and I knew in my heart it was probably too late. I mean once you give your heart you cant just turn it off. Having written the letter I should not have agreed to meet her so 'God could guide our words and hearts' because God was most decidedly not in that room. She is right: "You went from not wanting anything to do with me to wanting to be with me". i returned her key to her doorman for a reason. Not because I was a 'scared man' but because I was a smart and BRAVE one.

I had every right to be upset when she slept with someone else, whether or not we 'had the talk' or not. Someone can't ignore your boundaries to not have a relationship and give you keys to their place and say I want you to treat this like your home, give you drawer in their bedroom and say I want you to start moving in, chastise you for not nursing them back to health when they have the flu, tell you 'we have our lives to figure it out', make you discuss staying in the city you hate for THEM, and then tell you when they cheat 'well you said you didn't want a relationship'. More to the point and for myself, my instincts on that were right too, legalese about whether it was "right" or not aside; a woman who has just had an amazing sexual experience with a man she really wants a future with and has given keys and drawers to doesn't THINK about inviting another man up just because technically she can. She doesn't WANT to. The fact she does speaks volumes either about her morality or he actual feelings and I KNEW that (thus the scathing letter I sent).

A woman who says "I'd cheat on him if I dated him" would cheat on anyone and knows it and it speaks to morality and promiscuity issues that boggle the mind.

A girl who starts a relationship confirming that not only are not seeing anyone but not even speaking to another woman romantically can't tell you 1/2 through it that 'if a man doesn't say he wants a monogamous relationship I assume we are not in one'. She has used that bs I'm sure for 15 years to break men's hearts. On the night of our date she for some reason decided to show me a text from her friend who was according to her an (abusive) ex from 10 years ago she does NOT hook up with but has drinks with once a month (she actually asked me for permission to see him once a month platonically when she was future bombing). The text was in response to his asking her to have drinks and her saying 'Sorry I have plans'. His text: "What the ___ does that mean?". Not sure why she showed me (I have a clue now) but she explained it that she never has plans so he was amazed. What BS. It was a guy who thought he had an exclusive relationship with her, wanting to know what th F "I have plans meant". She either wanted me to know/intuit it or more likely has done this so long she is truly clueless about her behavior.

Not a serious relationship in 10 years? I'll bet there are a string of men that thought the were in one with her while she slept around telling herself she was not. Heck when she came by when she was seeign Dom (who it turns out she had real feelings for) and told me she was not supposed to be talking to me (becuase he's a confident alpha male and all) she STILL asked me to meet her for drinks. Likely because even though he forbid her to talk to other men he never said he wanted a monogamous relationship :| It explains the blase dismissal of my love letters as 'notes' since she likely has a slew in her drawer from other utterly confused men.

If I take from this that I might have NPD, that I have no empathy skills, that she just left because she realized she wasn't the light of my life after eighteen months on that single night and that my hindsight take away should have been a) to be more supportive and understanding of her inane 'I'm not your gf' text exchange and b) to hold her and hug her when she said after the 18 month campaign the precise thing I said to reject her at the begining (and I mean verbatim) to reject me then I am going to walk around with a giant BPDs! Kick Me sign on my back. Since I knew what she was going to do I should have been prepared with a calm exit; smile, shake my head, toss her the bluetooth controler for the vibrator. Heck I should have had my gorgoues wine bar friend waiting for me outside just to make a point. Take my reactive self and couple it with my rational one.

I never dated a BPD or NPD, I never dated a lying faithless woman before, I never dated a woman who couldn't care less about where I was in my life just what she wanted, I never dated a woman or HEARD of one before this who could walk out of my life like I was a bathroom stall and then treat such heartfelt gestures with such utter contempt. Make no mistake she knows what she is doing. Ignoring my letters would have been nicer, saying 'Sorry I'm seeing someone' would have been too.  Effecitvely ignoring the entire content and context of what I said, the import, basically saying 'thank you for the nice thought' as she might to an unwanted suitor was intentionally hurtful. It invalidated everything that happened between us, it invaldiated and trivilaized my feelngs as it was meant to. Promising to reach out as long as I was available at the precise hour she deigned to make for me was contemtuous and never following up was cruel. As they were meant to be Why? Because the woman is classic NPD/BPD which anyone in the world seems to be able to see.

I've asked other experts on other boards, their advice was and is No Contact and yes her behavior is classis. I have nothing to apologize to this girl about.  Not running the night I didn't stay over, not returning her key, not the scathing letter, not the 'testy' exchange, and for most definitely not for lashing out at that bs at the end. For effen God's sake I didn't owe a girl who gave me keys and drawers a request to have a committed relationship in the first place, let alone doing it so romantically, let alone wasting a lunch time to confirm it for her and her therapist, let alone engaging in that inane 15 year old discussion, let alone a beautiful dinner where I TREATED her like Cinderalla (which from her response she'd never even experienced before) and made asking her for the very relationship she acted like we were in for a year The Most Important Question in The World. Like some inane conflation of Sex in the City, The Bachelor and 50 Shades of Grey (yes I was asked to bring a bluetooth vibrator to have fun with at the table). And then get treated like some FWB that got it all wrong.

This is not me being extreme Skip, THIS is me being centered. This is me taking the lessons from this situation that will allow both to survive and to love. I get I also need to get out of my current situation and re-learn how to deal with conflict and not trigger so fast or emotionally. But I am not even close to being NPD and what I really needed to learn from this was to listen to my goddamn instincts and to get that when I am being reactive it is my radar on full alert. All I need to do is step back then and calmly deal with the claxon. Instead of running into walls I need to calmly say 'Everyone please calmly head for the exits in an orderly fashion'. The Exit. That is my lesson here.

1T, you have to stay centered if you are going to heal and grow.  You started to center yesterday which was good. Then you swung right a bit (drafting an email to her, not a good idea) and now you are swinging left again (she f___ victimized me).

Look at these two quotes, 18 hours apart.




In the first you describe the letter as nice. In the second you describe it as scathing.

How are you going to make sense of all of this if you can't lock into the basic truth of what happened?

You came out and said something really important yesterday... .that these mood swings make you feel better... .you know you are off center (just as you do now), but it makes you feel better. That is not healthy, 1T. It's called dysfunctional coping.

That doesn't hurt anyone but you. Fight it.

So let's go back to your premise that the other guy shows up, she looks at what the two of you have going (after struggling a bit over the deciding on a committed relationship) and what he is offering, and she chooses him. Is that the reality?

Or is the reality that she was sleeping with him all along (as you suggested the other day) and strung you along for 129 days to get you to this big date, have a nice meal, be intimate for the first time, talk about a future, for the purpose getting to an emotional high, just to rip it away because it would be a fun thing to do.  Is that the reality?

Or what I suggested real, that she wanted a grand Cinderella relationships and you were in "she's growing on me" state of mind - and she decided this was not the path she wanted?

Or some combination of the above.

What is the true reality here (sincere question)? Not the "what reality makes you feel better today", but what reality is true?

Or is this just going to be easier to paint her black, concoct an evil narrative, go No Contract (whatever that means when the person in question is not contacting you), and get angry and bitter and carry that to the next relationship as you carried wounds into this one.  This is not a criticism, 1T, its a challenge to make a the right choice and see it through. It's a valid choice. We have had many members do this. We see them again in a few years.

You have choices. You keep saying, "I have no choice but to... .", but the fact is that you have choices. Making the right one is often hard. Good mental health is hard.

This may be how she or her mother whitewash her behavior it is not reality. Not just not MY reality it is not REALITY. There is a reason in court they say 'the truth and the WHOLE truth'. Half a truth is the worst lie there is. And the above my friend is half the truth.

Dear 1stT-

I hope you’re doing okay.  I have some thoughts, so stay with me on this, okay?  I understand that when the “4-month relationship” commenced and she pressed on whether you were seeing OR talking/texting with other women, you assured her NO.  She pretty much already KNEW this, because of how your life had been and what you had disclosed over the prior 14 months of texts, conversations and previous casual meet-ups.  You’re a straight shooter and she’s an insecure girl, so I feel pretty certain that was NOT the first time she ever asked you.  Am I correct?

On the other hand... .you KNEW And FELT before the 4 months that you had no basis to ask for fidelity.  You were holding back and stated clearly that you didn’t WANT to be in a relationship at that point.  It wasn’t the right time for you.

BUT... .When the 4 months commenced, being the pretty trusting guy you are, and based on her “one man woman” proclamations, you likely felt you didn’t need to press HER too hard on whether she was actively romantically seeing, talking to or texting other men.  Especially considering how hard she had pushed you for a full-on relationship, true?

I know... .we can guess all we want.  And I have done my fair share.  Bottom line 1stT is that it gets us nowhere fast, but let’s do this anyway.  And I want to remind you - my ex-uBPDbf basically lived in my home for 4.5 years and I truly believe I know NOTHING of his truth.

So here’s my guess... .DOM-ex was ALWAYS lurking in her background.  He was kind of “on retainer”.  PwBPD traits pretty much HAVE to keep that emptiness filled in some way, shape or form.  And yes, she DID see him on that Friday and she TOLD him she was about to enter a committed relationship and BOOM!  Whatever BOOM means... .he delivered.

She showed you the text from him, his response of being baffled that she “had plans”.  That tells you all you need to know.  He never knew a thing about you until you were about to ask her to be your GF.  That, my friend is the reason she kept asking over and over if you were SURE you were going to ask.  And then she sprang that news on him -just like she dropped the bomb on you. 

My take is that, like you said - she is “15-years old internally”; because loving, caring adults do NOT play on people’s emotions like this.  But borderlines do. They cannot help themselves, UNTIL they get the right kind of help.  This doesn’t mean they don’t have some great attributes; but it does mean you need to develop an understanding of who they are, and develop your communication skills (which is good for all of us anyway).

Who knows how things may have cycled had you not had your emotional reaction to her “great guy” exit.  But I’m still with you; even though I have a pretty calm temperament, I likely would have gotten up and left just as you did.

As far as reaching out at this point, maybe roll that thought over a bit.  Really, and I do mean REALLY... .think about who you think this woman IS.  In what way do you want her in your life?

After 5 months of keeping my ex-uBPDbf away from me, I still ask myself that question everyday.  But I have far deeper questions than that... .

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes