Redux (new information) and Trying to Detach not sure how. Part 2

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

If you mean the 1:50 clip of the House of Horrors narrator yes just now. I'm not sure if your point is I am a furious narcissist :| or to point out that her behavior is no where near this.

Those are two valid conclusions you could make from that video.

There are others. Junk psychology doesn't make us smarter.

The point I want to make is that when you do your postmortem, apply the same rules to your evaluation of yourself that you are applying to her, and vice versa. That is a pretty good check and balance. You haven't been doing that - your response about the video demonstrates that.

You make a case that she has issues because she hasn't has a serious boyfriend in 10 years. You haven't had a serious girlfriend either.  You make a case that she is BPD/NPD. Applying that same analysis level, a case can be made that you are NPD... .emotionally unavailable, entitled, limited empathy skills, lashes out when ego wounded without thinking of consequences... .has blue touch paper in your pocket... . 

I was saying, its important to get in the center of your reality and emotions. (I'm not saying your are HD Tudor, btw).

Your postmortem above is the most advanced thing you have written. Good progress!

You asked what I think. I think this is much less a case of anyone being abused and more a case of two people with high and rigid expectations of the other and you both failed to reach the others expectations. Bowen (Bowens Family Theory) largely defines the driver of emotional immaturity as unrealistic expectations.

I think you both feel let down and mistreated by the other.

She appears to have wanted what every girl wants, deep down... .a Cinderella romance. And while you have often said you gave her what she wanted, I think you actually didn't. I suspect that is what she realized in that 36 hours. She wanted to be the love of your life and embark on a fairy-tale journey... .the lead-up to the dinner was that... .you didn't see her the way she wanted to be seen.  She didn't abuse you... .You didn't reach her expectations.

You wanted something equally complicated... .you wanted to be lifted out of your "less than fulfilling life on your mothers living room sofa and no bedroom door"... . a rising like what almost happened in California. You didn't abuse her... .she didn't meet your expectation.

Yes, she really hurt your feeling by changing course. Yes, you really let her down in you guarded (and somewhat testy) lead up to the dinner and most likely in something that happened that day.

This is what you are saying above, but tied to the theme of each of your emotional handicaps at the time of t he relationship.

Where is it now? I suspect she is conflicted and in the 30-40% category regarding revising the relationship.  I'm not sure what percentage you are, but its probably in the 50-60% range.  You can correct me on this, I'm just setting up a model for you to use.

If you could relieve the time before the dinner, being excited about it with her would have made a difference for her.  If you could relieve the "I'm not ready for a committed relationship with you", you could have asked why and hugged her through it.  You didn't because you were struggling with her not meeting your expectations.

No fault here.

So now what?

I think you either write this off as "lessons learned" and do some healing and growth work here or recalculate where you are with your almost gf and do some healing and growth work here.

But whatever you do... .stay centered.

[Skip]

If you mean the 1:50 clip of the House of Horrors narrator yes just now. I'm not sure if your point is I am a furious narcissist :| or to point out that her behavior is no where near this.

Those are two valid conclusions you could make from that video.

There are others. Junk psychology doesn't make us smarter.

The point I want to make is that when you do your postmortem, apply the same rules to your evaluation of yourself that you are applying to her, and vice versa. That is a pretty good check and balance. You haven't been doing that - your response about the video demonstrates that.

You make a case that she has issues because she hasn't has a serious boyfriend in 10 years. You haven't had a serious girlfriend either.  You make a case that she is BPD/NPD. Applying that same analysis level, a case can be made that you are NPD... .emotionally unavailable, entitled, limited empathy skills, lashes out when ego wounded without thinking of consequences... .has blue touch paper in your pocket... . 

I was saying, its important to get in the center of your reality and emotions. (I'm not saying your are HD Tudor, btw).

Your postmortem above is the most advanced thing you have written. Good progress!

You asked what I think. I think this is much less a case of anyone being abused and more a case of two people with high and rigid expectations of the other and you both failed to reach the others expectations. Bowen (Bowens Family Theory) largely defines the driver of emotional immaturity as unrealistic expectations.

I think you both feel let down and mistreated by the other.

She appears to have wanted what every girl wants, deep down... .a Cinderella romance. And while you have often said you gave her what she wanted, I think you actually didn't. I suspect that is what she realized in that 36 hours. She wanted to be the love of your life and embark on a fairy-tale journey... .the lead-up to the dinner was that... .you didn't see her the way she wanted to be seen.  She didn't abuse you... .You didn't reach her expectations.

You wanted something equally complicated... .you wanted to be lifted out of your "less than fulfilling life on your mothers living room sofa and no bedroom door"... . a rising like what almost happened in California. You didn't abuse her... .she didn't meet your expectation.

Yes, she really hurt your feeling by changing course. Yes, you really let her down in you guarded (and somewhat testy) lead up to the dinner and most likely in something that happened that day.

This is what you are saying above, but tied to the theme of each of your emotional handicaps at the time of t he relationship.

Where is it now? I suspect she is conflicted and in the 30-40% category regarding revising the relationship.  I'm not sure what percentage you are, but its probably in the 50-60% range.  You can correct me on this, I'm just setting up a model for you to use.

If you could relieve the time before the dinner, being excited about it with her would have made a difference for her.  If you could relieve the "I'm not ready for a committed relationship with you", you could have asked why and hugged her through it.  You didn't because you were struggling with her not meeting your expectations.

No fault here.

So now what?

I think you either write this off as "lessons learned" and do some healing and growth work here or recalculate where you are with your almost gf and do some healing and growth work here.

But whatever you do... .stay centered.

[1stTimer]

The point I want to make is that when you do your postmortem, apply the same rules to your evaluation of yourself that you are applying to her, and vice versa. That is a pretty good check and balance. You haven't been doing that - your response about the video demonstrates that.

I'm not sure how it doesn't. I asked if it showed I was a narcissist and she was not the monster I painted her out to be. Or are you saying the full analysis would be it showed she was a narcisist and I'm not the monster I made myself out to be? I am confused.

You make a case that she has issues because she hasn't has a serious boyfriend in 10 years. You haven't had a serious girlfriend either.

I haven'te because of serious familys issues and as a man in NYC it is virtuall impossible to date with very limited means and w/o a Central Park West Condo let alone your own place. She has had endless opportunities to date. In any event not even sure what she means by that, she dates the dom who broke her heart and whom she is most likely with now.

You make a case that she is BPD/NPD. Applying that same analysis level, a case can be made that you are NPD... .emotionally unavailable, entitled, limited empathy skills, lashes out when ego wounded without thinking of consequences... .has blue touch paper in your pocket... . 

Possibly you could reading my story/replies, yet in my real life almost eveyrone I know, family and friends and especially women love talking to me precisely because I am a good listener, have great empathy, give great advice and am gentle and giving. Go figure. Clearly I need to work on empathy when I'm involved in the equation however.

She appears to have wanted what every girl wants, deep down... .a Cinderella romance. And while you have often said you gave her what she wanted, I think you actually didn't

.
Hmm. I never said I gave her a Cinderalla Romance. Not close. I didn't imply that and I actively resisted it. I think as I said the tragedy is she thought I was committing to get her to not sleep with men, I was committing because I realized I had pushed her to that and wanted to see what we had when I gave that part of myself. Clearly I should have been clearer when I said to her 'we want to see what we have when we are both committed'. I meant me as much as her and me giving her the man/romance/courting. She clearly didn't understand that and that is my fault.

I suspect that is what she realized in that 36 hours. She wanted to be the love of your life

and embark on a fairy-tale journey... .the lead-up to the dinner was that... .you didn't see her the way she wanted to be seen.  She didn't abuse you... .You didn't reach her expectations

I'm still sorry sticking with pushing someone to give parts of themself they say are very hard to, working that furiously to get it, tossing it aside the next day and asking them to pretend you just misunderstood is abusive.

That said, perhaps her Future Bomb was all testing; to see how I responded to them. The night before in fact (at the restaurant) when she was drinking Whiskey with me for the first time (her drink, her blackout drink in fact) when she said 'now let's drink MY drink' she started talking about the backroom in the restaurant as where we'd have our engagement party. I asked her why she does that (since endlessly being asked about marriage, buying places, not moving to california, etc starts to become to me disrespectful of my own boundaries especially when it is premature) and she said "I do that to men to see how they react". So maybe I failed Future Bomb.  Still even then quite a landmine to traverse from a woman who just told you she is terrified of committing to be in a committed relationship the night before. Are they... .trick questions?

You wanted something equally complicated... .you wanted to be lifted out of your "less than fulfilling life on your mothers living room sofa and no bedroom door"... . a rising like what almost happened in California. You didn't abuse her... .she didn't meet your expectation

.
She only didn't meet my expectations by pulling the rug out from under me, using the same exact phrase I did when I rejected her, and never called me again. I was fully prepared to see what we had when I gave her every part of me without withholding. I still think it is sad/tragic I didn't communicate that better so we got a chance to see what 'we' were like. But other than not being the love of my life which I never expected her to be she didn't let me down except at the end (and since). Sorry, I think I 'deserved'... ..something. If that makes me an entitled narcissist so be it

Yes, she really hurt your feeling by changing course. Yes, you really let her down in you guarded (and somewhat testy) lead up to the dinner and most likely in something that happened that day.

Yep I was testy. I was totally not trusting the girl at that point. And I should have stuck with my not-so-nice-letter which while not so nice hit the crux of the matter and not asked a girl out whose entire lifeview I didn't trust at that point. But yes Skip, having done so I should have been more understanding of her light-hearted 'are you looking forward to it' and even her 'You still have to ask to be my gf". I know that 100%. By then I read that as "I'm taking 4 days to take advantage of the technicality I already made you aware of" since... .I didn't trust her. The whole 'I'd cheat on him if I dated him' and the whole 'dabbled' with someone after giving me keys and drawers was spinning in my head already night and day. So I was in no good place to be light and supportive. I guess learning to being empathetic when Iare also emotionally involved would be a good toolset to add to my arsenal.

Where is it now? I suspect she is conflicted and in the 30-40% category regarding revising the relationship.  I'm not sure what percentage you are, but its probably in the 50-60% range.  You can correct me on this, I'm just setting up a model for you to use.

On revising the relationship sure  On revisiting it I'd put my real level at 20% tops. That is based on how I felt at her at best and my limited trust in her. Not just the fidelity stuff but the lack of concern for my well-being since. I think I was just as hurt as her and have tried to give her solace, appreciation and even closure. I'm well over 50% wanting her to reach out though. Well over 50% wanting to see each other in person.

I can't begin to estimate where she is. She has given me nothing to work with except her 'slip-up' at the unexpected text and her inviting me out which she quickly rectified and her immediate reply to the GG which she did as well. If I add up all the things she said whilst together and take them at face value, her careful replies and her slip-ups and her extreme care at giving away zero emotion which I take as meaning she has a lot and what I said in GG I'd put her at... 52.453245234%.  Seriously no idea.

And, again, I'm sorry that due to our various insecurities we didn't get to try 'us' with me being fully present and giving. Clearly there was something real there underneath both of our stuff, the fact I'm still her and she clearly has some desire to reach out shows that.

If you could relieve the time before the dinner, being excited about it with her would have made a difference for her.

Absolutely I could have when she started showing some hesitation. At the time it just seemed like yet another hurdle and I didn't get it. Or her.  I wasn't being the slightest bit empathetic. I should have said 'of course I'm looking forward to it I can't wait to have our first date and treat you like my lady". When she said 'you still have to ask me to be your gf" I could have said "I can't wait to ask you and can't wait to hear you say yes I'm counting the days". Or some such. I know man.

I was super excited when I invited her Skip.  She didn't ask for an Official Dinner. I said after asking her to be 'my one and only' "Let's start over on Friday. I'll take you on a real date to a great place and we'll have our first date as a real couple. Heck I'll even ask you again over a bottle of wine!" I even sent her the Open Table reservation confirmation which said "Purpose: Date Notes: Please give us the most romantic table in the house".

And the other hand on the night of the dinner I went all out. I did the 'M'lady' email to let her know I'd be picking her up which she didn't expect, escorted her to the car, held the door, helped her in, took her to one of the places she always wanted to go, walked her to the table, held her chair. I gave her the night she wanted in my arms and woke her up kissing her cheek. I gave her the night she wanted and was fully in it.

If you could relieve the "I'm not ready for a committed relationship with you", you could have asked why and hugged her through it.  You didn't because you were struggling with her not meeting your expectations.

I could have if I were a saint or in a much better place about both her and myself. Most people who have heard/read the story understand fully my response and think I went easy  on her. I think both Gem and Once Removed replied to the original story telling they understood fully my response. But I have considered a much stronger response would have been to take a breath and do just that and maybe something good could have come out of it. What blows my own mind about my own reaction; I wrote myself an email the night before predicting her next day conversation. I didn't expect her to put the onus on me but I wrote an email that said "Her: I don't think I can go through with this". I SHOWED it to her when she started talking. I said I knew you would do this. I had it ready to show her. The question is, being FULLY prepared for her to do so, why didn't I prepare a better response, get myself, get this, centered and figure out how I was going to handle it/her.

And again part if it is the loss/betrayal; I had simply asked her for months to not ask me for those parts of myself I couldn't spare and asked her all last week to not ask if she wasn't ready. So even being prepared I was not prepared for how she did it. I absolutely need to learn how to count to three or ten especially when I know I have huge triggers and yes, I could have and should have, knowing how frightened she was and expecting her to back off figured out how to give her some support and space. I know all this. I just didn't KNOW all this.

I think it says a lot I have done so much work to figure out where I let her down and how and to address it. I don't see any work on her part to understand... .anything. To reach out and give me a word of solace knowing I must be confused and hurt. To return an IOTA to me on any letter I've sent. Even recently to do me the slightest human courtesy having cared for me knowing I'm sitting here waiting and likely in pain, confusion, agony.

I think you either write this off as "lessons learned" and do some healing and growth work here or recalculate where you are with your almost gf and do some healing and growth work here.

Well I have no other choice. I've as I said opened my heart again and also realize I need to get out of the environment I am in forthwith. Even if it means letting my mother/family are for themselves and even if I have to take a huge hit on my 'Big Plans' for my business if it means I can go find a nice peaceful place and life to live and not be under constant attack/conflict and learn how to engage people in a normal way again.

Just curious what you think the chances she reaches out again are? For some reason, I put them at very high. For some reason, I trust that what she felt was real not just some 'pattern' she had, that her happiness at my text and her reaching out to meet and even my Grand Gesture really hit her hard. I really get the feeling the reticence to meet and the Spock-like replies hide a fear of how she'll feel when she sees me. Something exists here.  I mean I'm still here. Her gut reaction after 60 days was to ask me to meet at our place.

I don't know Skip if I want a romantic relationship with her but you know what? I'd like her back in my life. It is really what I meant by 'a walk in the park or tea for two'. We had something nice and something real and I can likely deal with her seeing someone since I was fine with it up to March of this year before it all went awry.

I wonder if I just wait for her to one day walk back in my life? Or not? I was thinking of a letter (I know I know) something like:

Hi. Not reaching out to pressure you at all. Just to say that I did mean what I said about 'whenever' and 'until then'. I'm simply saying... .I am here for you. There is always a place in my life and heart for you regardless of what we are to each other. That's why I said 'a walk in the park of tea for two'. Simply put; I like you and I liked you in my life. I'm here when and if you want me in yours, no pressure, no conditions, no expectations.

[1stTimer]

Skip in light of your post-mortem (parts of which I agree with for sure, and instead of saying parts of which I don't I'll say parts of which I'll continue to process) may I ask if you think then the Grand Gesture hurt, helped or made no difference?  If her whole issue really was "I want to be special to him and I'm not" I feel sort of like I did before; that her pullback after her desire to meet me could only be accompanied by 'why go see him if he never really liked me in the first place?" and now the GG gives her an entirely unexpected point of view to assess... .everything. Why I held back. Why I asked her. How I felt. How I've grown. Not saying she didn't move on since then or even read my first letter and say 'Ok well on top of everything he has moved on and said goodbye so... .' but if she really wanted 'that' GG should have been good not bad. It would just be a huge amount of information to process/reprocess/recalibrate. Possibly too little too late but still better than just reach out to ask the same guy out and realize next day 'what the hell is the point of that?'.

I did say 'whenever' and 'until then' so maybe she re-read it and took me at my word.

[Skip]

Stay centered. Don't be rigid in your thinking. Remember, two people can be in a relationship  (or a car accident) and have vastly different and equally valid perspectives on what happened. It is OK for this dichotomy to exist - a relationship cognitive dissonance, if you will.

On revisiting it I'd put my real level at 20% tops.
I'm well over 50% wanting her to reach out though.
Well over 50% wanting to see each other in person.
I'd put her at... 52.453245234%.  

Think really hard on this. Get as centered as you can because this really drives what you do next. If your interest in saving the relationship is 20%, move on. Let go of the "well over 50%" wanting to see her.  That's the mature thing to do. Walk away if it is under 50%.

I can say with certainty, she is not at 52.4%.  If she was, you would have heard from her.  If she is in the 40%s , its is going to take some reaching out to connect. If she is is the <30%, nothing will help. If she was less than 30%, she probably would have ignored you. Based on the fact that you sent two conciliatory notes, I think it is clear that if you want to take another run at this, you will need to win her. I'm not saying to do this, I'm just trying to paint the reality of these situations in general.

******

Hmm. I never said I gave her a Cinderalla Romance. Not close. I didn't imply that and I actively resisted it. I think as I said the tragedy is she thought I was committing to get her to not sleep with men, I was committing because I realized I had pushed her to that and wanted to see what we had when I gave that part of myself.

I know. From what you have said, however, it looks like this is what she was wanting. She is entitled to be a women and decide what she wants and what she will accept.  You mentioned that she was conflicted  somewhat on the day after the dinner. It sure sounds like she was thing, "well he's giving his all now and I really need more than this".

Staying centered... .

It's actually a thing that women do... .love is fragile... .you guys were finally engaging it... .and it just wasn't right, somehow.

You might have been able to reassure here and keep things going, but that's not what happened.

Staying centered... .

You didn't want any of this (Cinderella Romance). It was annoying to you. You were not at all infatuated. You look down at her in a lot ways - appearance, morals, mental health, etc. To you, she was OK, or pretty good, or growing on you. When you say you were giving her what she wanted  - that says a lot.

It's valid to feel that way. You don't need to be someone your not to please other people.  And after she placed you on a pedestal (her style of flirting), when she pulled it away and said never mind, that stung. When someone is chasing us and valuing us, it feels pretty good - but if things don't eventually balance, things often crash.

So... .

It's legitimate or her to feel conflicted, let down, and in that "maybe, maybe not" place. The pedestal tipped over the day after the dinner, the anger kicked it down further, and extended no contact even more. From her perspective, the fact that she is even talking to says a lot.

It's legitimate for you to see her as demanding,  "not your princess" and flawed, and hurtful.  She was.  The same behavior from someone else may have felt like heaven to you - but not from her.

Does this make sense?

[1stTimer]

Think really hard on this. Get as centered as you can because this really drives what you do next. If your interest in saving the relationship is 20%, move on. Let go of the "well over 50%" wanting to see her.  That's the mature thing to do. Walk away if it is under 50%.

Man I don't know the #. I know I'm still here every day and still think about it each day. I guess knowng why would help. A lot is the sting of having it removed, a lot is not being 'worshipped'. But I'd also gotten to where I thought if I put my guard down and gave back what I was getting we might in fact have something really nice.

I can say with certainty, she is not at 52.4%.  If she was, you would have heard from her.  If she is in the 40%s , its is going to take some reaching out to connect. If she is is the <30%, nothing will help. If she was less than 30%, she probably would have ignored you. Based on the fact that you sent two conciliatory notes, I think it is clear that if you want to take another run at this, you will need to win her. I'm not saying to do this, I'm just trying to paint the reality of these situations in general.

Well I am unclear how to 'win' her. I can't very well reach out again. I'll repeat I think her most genuine response was my surprise text (not email) and invite. So do I trust that she might be processing this and the reason she neither reached out nor replied 'hey look never mind' to shut me down completely is that she is processing? Or is each passing day just a day in the rear-view mirror? I'd have no idea how to reach out now. That 'speak truthfully' seems to speak volumes given the 3 weeks however.

I'm sitting her thinking she is sitting with this since it is a pretty serious decision based on GG to reach out; if she really felt like she said and really ran because she didn't think I liked her, and really reached out in text because she still had feelings and really pulled back because she "remembered" i didn't really like her then doesn't that GG make reaching out a huge deal if she does? I mean it isn't 'hey how've you been?' (and I don't think inviting me to our place was for that) it's literally reaching out to someone you wanted something serious with who has said I did TOO and am ready which is a Big. Decision. So is it just mental masturbation to think she needs some time to really figure that out? I mean now the whole Committed Relationship takes on a whole new meeting if I am too right?

She could have just thrown it in her drawer and forgotten about it for all I know.

So does this mean I have three choices:

1) Just move the f on. Harder for me than her cause I don't have women asking me out left and right. She may or may not be able to replace me or what she felt but she can have a person. I cannot right now.

2) Not move on and 'hope' she replies? That seems pretty lame and puts me in the same limbo I lived in for years anyway. So that seems a bad choice. It is the start of week 4. She can't think I'm still waiting for the 'I've got a free hour now' call?

3) Make some other move. I'd have no idea what. Some funny text? "Hey I really need to pee so if you're not planning on calling let me know?" (kidding). This sounds like bad option too especially in light of her 'speak truthfully'.

I guess I really only have one choice and that is move on. I don't see how to make 3 work. My only play I see is the one I had at end of my last post where I take the pressure off her entirely on any romance just open door for friendship if she wants. And see what transpires.

You mentioned that she was conflicted  somewhat on the day after the dinner. It sure sounds like she was thing, "well he's giving his all now and I really need more than this".

Something happened before dinner. She was weird AT dinner. She did the whole 'before you ask' and "Just listen. Don't talk. I am terrified". She was on edge. She was on edge all day even with the future bomb. Affectionate, mean, short, nice. She did the whole 'so now you're the one who... .God puts people in our life for a reason'. And I'll repeat she told me that day that she'd bumped into Dom Ex the day of our dinner and almost cancelled. Almost cancelled the Official Dinner. Big Deal. Because she was crushed and it turned out she had real feelings for him (she said same thing about me). That plus 'God puts people in our life for a reason' leads me to believe she was a mess dinner night and that day beause she realized she was going back to him and because he'd already almost destroyed her AND because her friends said don't even tell us if you do.

I don't think I did anything wrong at dinner or that night or day. I don't think it was me. 5 days before she was ecstatic about introducing me to her whole family. I think he came back into her life, I think that is why she bombed us the very next day. She saw him that night (after we parted ways). There would be no other reason to back out that fast and she had ample opporitnity after our text exchange to back out I gave her every chance she did NOT take it. All I did after her not taking it was take her on a great date, treat her like a lady make love to her hold her in my arms and tell her she was beautiful. I don't think it was not enough, I think she'd realized no matter how much she tried to plan a future with me she was not going to be able to resist going back to him.

This is my honest take on it and it just fits. She didn't have some revalation about being with me between Tuesday and Sunday or Friday and Sunday. He showed up on Friday afternoon before Friday dinner. And she realized she was going back. She wanted a man who made her call him Mr and Sir (which she tried to call me) she wanted to be controlled by an older man who told her what to do and when. She wanted Daddy. I'm not Daddy.

It's legitimate or her to feel conflicted, let down, and in that "maybe, maybe not" place. The pedestal tipped over the day after the dinner,

Again I think it was before dinner. I think it as DomEx. She was weird from the moment we got to the place. By then I think she knew she was out.

the anger kicked it down further, and extended no contact even more. From her perspective, the fact that she is even talking to says a lot.

Yeah I find her talking to me quite interesting. I find her texts quite interesting. I find her protective replies the same and her fear of meeting the same. I find the fact we both circle after 3 months interesting. My gut tells me there is a lot inside her for me still and I think she knows seeing me will resurface all of that.

It's legitimate for you to see her as demanding,  "not your princess" and flawed, and hurtful.  She was.  The same behavior from someone else may have felt like heaven to you - but not from her.

Does this make sense?

Total sense. But also came to the concluson at some point if i wait for the magic I had in California again I might day in front of my laptop all alone. Connection, affection, support, sexual chemistry, those are good things too even if not Hollywood.

Really now conflicted on next step.

Waiting means I need to totally let go and move on, if she ever returns she does I deal with it then.

Reaching out mean I need to find some way to... .reach out. To a girl who is either sitting on something that she knows replying to is a Big Step. Or to a girl who put it in her drawer and moved on. Either way is fraught with danger and more to the point is HOW? Flowers no, gesture no. Pressure no. There is just no way to push it as I see it except to hope that in fact my words are in her heart and she finds her way to me and we see.

[1stTimer]

It's actually a thing that women do... .love is fragile... .you guys were finally engaging it... .and it just wasn't right, somehow.

No, she actually said by text, email and in person she really liked the new way I was treating her. Seriously dinner didn't ruin it, it was something that happened before dinner, I keep saying I missed something big because she went haywire. When I went to her place Thursday to talk about whether we were going to do this she was fully on board, no conflict, texted me right there so I;d have it 'Of course I am committed to you I just can't wait for you to ask me tomorrow' and in fact got MAD I'd cancelled in the first place. She wanted that dinner and me. It was what happened Friday with him. 1000% commited to diner, then anxious and distracted at dinner, conflicted all day we are together until we part in afternoon, spends night with him, meets me next morning (!) to tell me we are done? That was not from bad dinner or night.

[1stTimer]

What did you think of this as a reach out if I am actually good and centered and want to reconnect as friends.

i. Not reaching out to pressure you at all. Just to say that I did mean what I said about 'whenever' and 'until then'. I'm simply saying... .I am here for you. There is always a place in my life and heart for you regardless of what we are to each other. That's why I said 'a walk in the park of tea for two'. Simply put; I like you and I liked you in my life. I'm here when and if you want me in yours, no pressure, no conditions, no expectations.

[Cat Familiar]

How do you imagine it might be if you reach out to her? Say she agrees to see you and suddenly you two are in a relationship; how do you see that working out?

It can be really troubling sitting with uncertainty. But you do know how you feel about her in some areas: you’re concerned that she’s not emotionally healthy; you think that you don’t share some values about monogamy; you don’t feel like you’re in love with her.

But she has hurt you by cutting off contact when you offered your heart to her.

What about this relationship makes you want to pursue her? And if you do, how do you see this playing out in the future?

[1stTimer]

Cat, the answer, of course, is if we are suddenly in a relationship it works out horribly. She lies and cheats and does another cut-and-run or devalue/discard and I end up back here or worse.  Even during good times she is a bad partner because she doesn't really care about my needs or even who I am just her needs at any given time. If she did return to me now it would be because it is something she needs and whatever she needed when she left me high and dry she no longer needs. But as long as she has what she needs whatever pain or confusion I'm in don't matter a whit, whatever gestures I've made to try to provide HER with succor and closure and love and appreciation. Those mean notihng since she doesn't need them now. So I don't exist. Yes, not the partner I want or need.

Skip's analysis when you get to the core of it is for all intents and purposes how I summarized it for him initially... A little nicer to me perhaps but at the core the same entirely incorrect story which will only get me hurt if I internalize it since it has none of the lessons I need to take from it.

The girl didn't leave after getting what she wanted because she 'suddenly' realized she wasn't getting the fairy-tale she hoped and then stay away because she was hurt by my anger. That is the most benign take on a CLASSIC BPD I have read. Not a person who has hear my story doesn't not get that I was dealing with a hugely damaged woman. She had not only every chance to walk away up to the day of the dinner, she had every chance to let ME walk away when I did so. I said as much in the scathing letter "I believe you were trying to push me away by telling me those things and if you had just been honest with me about what you wanted or didn't want anymore, we might still be friends".

I am NOT NPD, not a behavior in my life supports that and more to the point the way people and women turn to me for my kindess, support and empathy all support that.

If I am to come out of this whole the lessons I need to take are:

1) When someone ignores your boundaries repeatedly because they put thier needs ahead of yours then end the relationship. Because you are in a a bad one. This girl did that (and to a disturbing degree) from the beginning to the end. Putting her needs above mine has continued since she discarded me.

2) While I need to learn to control my emotions when I am feeling reactive, to take a step back and listen and look and be with what I'm feeling, I need more than anything to LISTEN.   Because my reactive self which I may need to get under control of is freakishly accurate at assessing reality.

- I wasn't being 'testy' in my text exchange. My instincts were SCREAMING at me that this girl was full of s***, that she was a liar, that her views on fidelity were haywire and more importantly that she was either hugely conflicted or plain old not planning on entering a relationship. The entire exchange is me saying just that as was our face to face to  'hash it out'.

- I wasn't being 'reactive' when I left her apartment the first time she wanted me to stay ove. I looked down at her sleeping and KNEW and I RAN. For the hills. The letter I wrote her while 'reactive' was spot-on in my analysis

Here's an example of reactive self which I buttoned up the one time; at her apartment towards the end of the day I stepped in front of her and kissed her (because she'd already said you never kiss me first). She had been texting and she blushed which I mentioned. She said 'what do I look like when I blush?' (?) and I almost said the first thing that popped in my mind: "You get that guilty look on your face like you have now". Because she was texting someone. My instincts and my 'reactive' self are critical to my survival.

I ignored my instincts at every turn and ignored them even as they revealed themselves to be right simply because I was terrified of being alone and of exactly what I said in my letter to her; I was horrified that I'd 'almost' given my heart to a woman that was the exact opposite of whom she presented and who I wanted and I knew in my heart it was probably too late. I mean once you give your heart you cant just turn it off. Having written the letter I should not have agreed to meet her so 'God could guide our words and hearts' because God was most decidedly not in that room. She is right: "You went from not wanting anything to do with me to wanting to be with me". i returned her key to her doorman for a reason. Not because I was a 'scared man' but because I was a smart and BRAVE one.

I had every right to be upset when she slept with somoene else, whether or not we 'had the talk' or not. Someone can't ignore your boundaries to not have a relationship and give you keys to their place and say I want you to treat this like your home, give you drawer in their bedroom and say I want you to start moving in, chastise you for not nursing them back to health when they have the flu, tell you 'we have our lives to figure it out', make you discuss staying in the city you hate for THEM, and then tell you when they cheat 'well you said you didn't want a relationnship'. More to the point and for myself, my instincts on that were right too, legalize about whether it was "right" or not aside; a woman who has just had an amazing sexual experience with a man she really wants a future with and has given keys and drawers to doesn't THINK about inviting another man up just because technically she can. She doesn't WANT to. The fact she does speaks volumes either about her morality or he actual feelings and I KNEW that (thus the scathing letter I sent).

A woman who says "I'd cheat on him if I dated him" would cheat on anyone and knows it and it speaks to morality and promiscuity issues that boggle the mind.

A girl who starts a relationship confirming that not only are not seeing anyone but not even speaking to another woman romantically can't tell you 1/2 through it that 'if a man doesn't say he wants a monogamous relationship I assume we are not in one'. She has used that bs I'm sure for 15 years to break men's hearts. On the night of our date she for some reason decided to show me a text from her friend who was according to her an (abusive) ex from 10 years ago she does NOT hook up with but has drinks with once a month (she actually asked me for permission to see him once a month platonically when she was future bombing). The text was in response to his asking her to have drinks and her saying 'Sorry I have plans'. His text: "What the ___ does that mean?". Not sure why she showed me (I have a clue now) but she explained it that she never has plans so he was amazed. What BS. It was a guy who thought he had an exclusive relationship with her, wanting to know what th F "I have plans meant". She either wanted me to know/intuit it or more likely has done this so long she is truly clueless about her behavior.

Not a serious relationship in 10 years? I'll bet there are a string of men that thought the were in one with her while she slept around telling herself she was not. Heck when she came by when she was seeign Dom (who it turns out she had real feelings for) and told me she was not supposed to be talking to me (becuase he's a confident alpha male and all) she STILL asked me to meet her for drinks. Likely because even though he forbid her to talk to other men he never said he wanted a monogamous relationship :|

If I take from this that I might have NPD, that I have no empathy skills, that she just left because she realized she wasn't the light of my life after eighteen months on that single night and that my hindsight take away should have been a) to be more supportive and understanding of her inane 'I'm not your gf' text exchange and b) to hold her and hug her when she said after the 18 month campaign the precise thing I said to reject her at the begining (and I mean verbatim) to reject me then I am going to walk around with a giant BPDs! Kick Me sign on my back.

I never dated a BPD or NPD, I never dated a lying faithless woman before, I never dated a woman who couldn't care less about where I was in my life just what she wanted, I never dated a woman or HEARD of one before this who could walk out of my life like I was a bathroom stall and then treat such heartfelt gestures with such utter contempt. Make no mistake she knows what she is doing. Ignoring my letters would have been nicer, saying 'Sorry I'm seeing someone' would have been too.  Effecitvely ignoring the entire content and context of what I said, the import, basically saying 'thank you for the nice thought' as she might to an unwanted suitor was intentionally hurtful. It invalidated everything that happened between us, it invaldiated and trivilaized my feelngs as it was meant to. Promising to reach out as long as I was available at the precise hour she deigned to make for me was contemtuous and never following up was cruel. As they were meant to be Why? Because the woman is classic NPD/BPD which anyone in the world seems to be able to see.

I've asked other experts on other boards, their advice was and is No Contact and yes her behavior is classis. I have nothing to apologize to this girl about.  Not running the night I didn't stay over, not returning her key, not the scathing letter, not the 'testy' exchange. For effen God's sake I didn't own a girl who gave me keys and drawers a request to have a committed relationship, let alone doing it so romantically, let alone wasting a lunch time to confirm it for her and her therapist, let alone engaging in that inane 15 year old discussion, let alone a beautiful dinner where I TREATED her like Cinderalla (which from her response she'd never even experienced before) and made asking her for the very relationship she acted like we were in for a year The Most Important Question in The World. Like some inane conflation of Sex in the City, The Bachelor and 50 Shades of Grey (yes I was asked to bring a bluetooth vibrator to have fun with at the table). And then get treated like some FWB that got it all wrong.

This is not me being extreme Skip, THIS is me being centered. This is me taking the lessons from this situation that will allow both to survive and to love. I get I also need to get out of my current situation and re-learn how to deal with conflict and not trigger so fast or emotionally. But I am not even close to being NPD and what I really needed to learn from this was to listen to my goddamn instincts and to get that when I am being reactive it is my radar on full alert. All I need to do is step back then and calmly deal with the claxon. Instead of running into walls I need to calmly say 'Everyone please calmly head for the exits in an orderly fashion'. The Exit. That is my lesson here.

-

How do you imagine it might be if you reach out to her? Say she agrees to see you and suddenly you two are in a relationship; how do you see that working out?

It can be really troubling sitting with uncertainty. But you do know how you feel about her in some areas: you’re concerned that she’s not emotionally healthy; you think that you don’t share some values about monogamy; you don’t feel like you’re in love with her.

But she has hurt you by cutting off contact when you offered your heart to her.

What about this relationship makes you want to pursue her? And if you do, how do you see this playing out in the future?

[1stTimer]

Cat, the answer, of course, is if we are suddenly in a relationship it works out horribly. She lies and cheats and does another cut-and-run or devalue/discard and I end up back here or worse.  Even during good times she is a bad partner because she doesn't really care about my needs or even who I am just her needs at any given time. If she did return to me now it would be because it is something she needs and whatever she needed when she left me high and dry she no longer needs. But as long as she has what she needs whatever pain or confusion I'm in don't matter a whit, whatever gestures I've made to try to provide HER with succor and closure and love and appreciation. Those mean notihng since she doesn't need them now. So I don't exist. Yes, not the partner I want or need.

Skip's analysis when you get to the core of it is for all intents and purposes how I summarized it for him initially... A little nicer to me perhaps but at the core the same entirely incorrect story which will only get me hurt if I internalize it since it has none of the lessons I need to take from it.

The girl didn't leave after getting what she wanted because she 'suddenly' realized she wasn't getting the fairy-tale she hoped and then stay away because she was hurt by my anger. That is the most benign take on a CLASSIC BPD I have read. Not a person who has hear my story doesn't not get that I was dealing with a hugely damaged woman. She had not only every chance to walk away up to the day of the dinner, she had every chance to let ME walk away when I did so. I said as much in the scathing letter "I believe you were trying to push me away by telling me those things and if you had just been honest with me about what you wanted or didn't want anymore, we might still be friends".

I am NOT NPD, not a behavior in my life supports that and more to the point the way people and women turn to me for my kindess, support and empathy all support that.

If I am to come out of this whole the lessons I need to take are:

1) When someone ignores your boundaries repeatedly because they put thier needs ahead of yours then end the relationship. Because you are in a a bad one. This girl did that (and to a disturbing degree) from the beginning to the end. Putting her needs above mine has continued since she discarded me.

2) While I need to learn to control my emotions when I am feeling reactive, to take a step back and listen and look and be with what I'm feeling, I need more than anything to LISTEN.   Because my reactive self which I may need to get under control of is freakishly accurate at assessing reality.

- I wasn't being 'testy' in my text exchange. My instincts were SCREAMING at me that this girl was full of s***, that she was a liar, that her views on fidelity were haywire and more importantly that she was either hugely conflicted or plain old not planning on entering a relationship. The entire exchange is me saying just that as was our face to face to  'hash it out'.

- I wasn't being 'reactive' when I left her apartment the first time she wanted me to stay ove. I looked down at her sleeping and KNEW and I RAN. For the hills. The letter I wrote her while 'reactive' was spot-on in my analysis

Here's an example of reactive self which I buttoned up the one time; at her apartment towards the end of the day I stepped in front of her and kissed her (because she'd already said you never kiss me first). She had been texting and she blushed which I mentioned. She said 'what do I look like when I blush?' (?) and I almost said the first thing that popped in my mind: "You get that guilty look on your face like you have now". Because she was texting someone. My instincts and my 'reactive' self are critical to my survival.

I ignored my instincts at every turn and ignored them even as they revealed themselves to be right simply because I was terrified of being alone and of exactly what I said in my letter to her; I was horrified that I'd 'almost' given my heart to a woman that was the exact opposite of whom she presented and who I wanted and I knew in my heart it was probably too late. I mean once you give your heart you cant just turn it off. Having written the letter I should not have agreed to meet her so 'God could guide our words and hearts' because God was most decidedly not in that room. She is right: "You went from not wanting anything to do with me to wanting to be with me". i returned her key to her doorman for a reason. Not because I was a 'scared man' but because I was a smart and BRAVE one.

I had every right to be upset when she slept with someone else, whether or not we 'had the talk' or not. Someone can't ignore your boundaries to not have a relationship and give you keys to their place and say I want you to treat this like your home, give you drawer in their bedroom and say I want you to start moving in, chastise you for not nursing them back to health when they have the flu, tell you 'we have our lives to figure it out', make you discuss staying in the city you hate for THEM, and then tell you when they cheat 'well you said you didn't want a relationship'. More to the point and for myself, my instincts on that were right too, legalese about whether it was "right" or not aside; a woman who has just had an amazing sexual experience with a man she really wants a future with and has given keys and drawers to doesn't THINK about inviting another man up just because technically she can. She doesn't WANT to. The fact she does speaks volumes either about her morality or he actual feelings and I KNEW that (thus the scathing letter I sent).

A woman who says "I'd cheat on him if I dated him" would cheat on anyone and knows it and it speaks to morality and promiscuity issues that boggle the mind.

A girl who starts a relationship confirming that not only are not seeing anyone but not even speaking to another woman romantically can't tell you 1/2 through it that 'if a man doesn't say he wants a monogamous relationship I assume we are not in one'. She has used that bs I'm sure for 15 years to break men's hearts. On the night of our date she for some reason decided to show me a text from her friend who was according to her an (abusive) ex from 10 years ago she does NOT hook up with but has drinks with once a month (she actually asked me for permission to see him once a month platonically when she was future bombing). The text was in response to his asking her to have drinks and her saying 'Sorry I have plans'. His text: "What the ___ does that mean?". Not sure why she showed me (I have a clue now) but she explained it that she never has plans so he was amazed. What BS. It was a guy who thought he had an exclusive relationship with her, wanting to know what th F "I have plans meant". She either wanted me to know/intuit it or more likely has done this so long she is truly clueless about her behavior.

Not a serious relationship in 10 years? I'll bet there are a string of men that thought the were in one with her while she slept around telling herself she was not. Heck when she came by when she was seeign Dom (who it turns out she had real feelings for) and told me she was not supposed to be talking to me (becuase he's a confident alpha male and all) she STILL asked me to meet her for drinks. Likely because even though he forbid her to talk to other men he never said he wanted a monogamous relationship :| It explains the blase dismissal of my love letters as 'notes' since she likely has a slew in her drawer from other utterly confused men.

If I take from this that I might have NPD, that I have no empathy skills, that she just left because she realized she wasn't the light of my life after eighteen months on that single night and that my hindsight take away should have been a) to be more supportive and understanding of her inane 'I'm not your gf' text exchange and b) to hold her and hug her when she said after the 18 month campaign the precise thing I said to reject her at the begining (and I mean verbatim) to reject me then I am going to walk around with a giant BPDs! Kick Me sign on my back. Since I knew what she was going to do I should have been prepared with a calm exit; smile, shake my head, toss her the bluetooth controler for the vibrator. Heck I should have had my gorgoues wine bar friend waiting for me outside just to make a point. Take my reactive self and couple it with my rational one.

I never dated a BPD or NPD, I never dated a lying faithless woman before, I never dated a woman who couldn't care less about where I was in my life just what she wanted, I never dated a woman or HEARD of one before this who could walk out of my life like I was a bathroom stall and then treat such heartfelt gestures with such utter contempt. Make no mistake she knows what she is doing. Ignoring my letters would have been nicer, saying 'Sorry I'm seeing someone' would have been too.  Effecitvely ignoring the entire content and context of what I said, the import, basically saying 'thank you for the nice thought' as she might to an unwanted suitor was intentionally hurtful. It invalidated everything that happened between us, it invaldiated and trivilaized my feelngs as it was meant to. Promising to reach out as long as I was available at the precise hour she deigned to make for me was contemtuous and never following up was cruel. As they were meant to be Why? Because the woman is classic NPD/BPD which anyone in the world seems to be able to see.

I've asked other experts on other boards, their advice was and is No Contact and yes her behavior is classis. I have nothing to apologize to this girl about.  Not running the night I didn't stay over, not returning her key, not the scathing letter, not the 'testy' exchange, and for most definitely not for lashing out at that bs at the end. For effen God's sake I didn't owe a girl who gave me keys and drawers a request to have a committed relationship in the first place, let alone doing it so romantically, let alone wasting a lunch time to confirm it for her and her therapist, let alone engaging in that inane 15 year old discussion, let alone a beautiful dinner where I TREATED her like Cinderalla (which from her response she'd never even experienced before) and made asking her for the very relationship she acted like we were in for a year The Most Important Question in The World. Like some inane conflation of Sex in the City, The Bachelor and 50 Shades of Grey (yes I was asked to bring a bluetooth vibrator to have fun with at the table). And then get treated like some FWB that got it all wrong.

This is not me being extreme Skip, THIS is me being centered. This is me taking the lessons from this situation that will allow both to survive and to love. I get I also need to get out of my current situation and re-learn how to deal with conflict and not trigger so fast or emotionally. But I am not even close to being NPD and what I really needed to learn from this was to listen to my goddamn instincts and to get that when I am being reactive it is my radar on full alert. All I need to do is step back then and calmly deal with the claxon. Instead of running into walls I need to calmly say 'Everyone please calmly head for the exits in an orderly fashion'. The Exit. That is my lesson here.

[Skip]

1T, you have to stay centered if you are going to heal and grow.  You started to center yesterday which was good. Then you swung right a bit (drafting an email to her, not a good idea) and now you are swinging left again (she f___ victimized me).

Look at these two quotes, 18 hours apart.

On my first letter
Maybe phrasing it as a goodbye made no sense but Skip I had no experience with any of this, discard most especially. I was in utter raw shock over how fast it went from future to disappearance without a word or text or email from a girl I'd texted almost daily for a year plus. I assumed a) she either hated me or b) she had played me or c) she want back to Dom. I figured I'd lost her. So instead of some angry letter decided to just end with something nice vs the anger of the last time we met

I said as much in the scathing letter "I believe you were trying to push me away by telling me those things and if you had just been honest with me about what you wanted or didn't want anymore, we might still be friends".

In the first you describe the letter as nice. In the second you describe it as scathing.

How are you going to make sense of all of this if you can't lock into the basic truth of what happened?

You came out and said something really important yesterday... .that these mood swings make you feel better... .you know you are off center (just as you do now), but it makes you feel better. That is not healthy, 1T. It's called dysfunctional coping.

That doesn't hurt anyone but you. Fight it.

So let's go back to your premise that the other guy shows up, she looks at what the two of you have going (after struggling a bit over the deciding on a committed relationship) and what he is offering, and she chooses him. Is that the reality?

Or is the reality that she was sleeping with him all along (as you suggested the other day) and strung you along for 129 days to get you to this big date, have a nice meal, be intimate for the first time, talk about a future, for the purpose getting to an emotional high, just to rip it away because it would be a fun thing to do.  Is that the reality?

Or what I suggested real, that she wanted a grand Cinderella relationships and you were in "she's growing on me" state of mind - and she decided this was not the path she wanted?

Or some combination of the above.

What is the true reality here (sincere question)? Not the "what reality makes you feel better today", but what reality is true?

Or is this just going to be easier to paint her black, concoct an evil narrative, go No Contract (whatever that means when the person in question is not contacting you), and get angry and bitter and carry that to the next relationship as you carried wounds into this one.  This is not a criticism, 1T, its a challenge to make a the right choice and see it through. It's a valid choice. We have had many members do this. We see them again in a few years.

You have choices. You keep saying, "I have no choice but to... .", but the fact is that you have choices. Making the right one is often hard. Good mental health is hard.

[1stTimer]

So let's go back to your premise that the other guy shows up, she looks at what the two of you have going (after struggling a bit over the deciding on a committed relationship) and what he is offering, and she chooses him. Is that the reality?

This may be how she or her mother whitewash her behavior it is not reality. Not just not MY reality it is not REALITY. There is a reason in court they say 'the truth and the WHOLE truth'. Half a truth is the worst lie there is. And the above my friend is half the truth.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear 1stT-

I hope you’re doing okay.  I have some thoughts, so stay with me on this, okay?  I understand that when the “4-month relationship” commenced and she pressed on whether you were seeing OR talking/texting with other women, you assured her NO.  She pretty much already KNEW this, because of how your life had been and what you had disclosed over the prior 14 months of texts, conversations and previous casual meet-ups.  You’re a straight shooter and she’s an insecure girl, so I feel pretty certain that was NOT the first time she ever asked you.  Am I correct?

On the other hand... .you KNEW And FELT before the 4 months that you had no basis to ask for fidelity.  You were holding back and stated clearly that you didn’t WANT to be in a relationship at that point.  It wasn’t the right time for you.

BUT... .When the 4 months commenced, being the pretty trusting guy you are, and based on her “one man woman” proclamations, you likely felt you didn’t need to press HER too hard on whether she was actively romantically seeing, talking to or texting other men.  Especially considering how hard she had pushed you for a full-on relationship, true?

I know... .we can guess all we want.  And I have done my fair share.  Bottom line 1stT is that it gets us nowhere fast, but let’s do this anyway.  And I want to remind you - my ex-uBPDbf basically lived in my home for 4.5 years and I truly believe I know NOTHING of his truth.

So here’s my guess... .DOM-ex was ALWAYS lurking in her background.  He was kind of “on retainer”.  PwBPD traits pretty much HAVE to keep that emptiness filled in some way, shape or form.  And yes, she DID see him on that Friday and she TOLD him she was about to enter a committed relationship and BOOM!  Whatever BOOM means... .he delivered.

She showed you the text from him, his response of being baffled that she “had plans”.  That tells you all you need to know.  He never knew a thing about you until you were about to ask her to be your GF.  That, my friend is the reason she kept asking over and over if you were SURE you were going to ask.  And then she sprang that news on him -just like she dropped the bomb on you. 

My take is that, like you said - she is “15-years old internally”; because loving, caring adults do NOT play on people’s emotions like this.  But borderlines do. They cannot help themselves, UNTIL they get the right kind of help.  This doesn’t mean they don’t have some great attributes; but it does mean you need to develop an understanding of who they are, and develop your communication skills (which is good for all of us anyway).

Who knows how things may have cycled had you not had your emotional reaction to her “great guy” exit.  But I’m still with you; even though I have a pretty calm temperament, I likely would have gotten up and left just as you did.

As far as reaching out at this point, maybe roll that thought over a bit.  Really, and I do mean REALLY... .think about who you think this woman IS.  In what way do you want her in your life?

After 5 months of keeping my ex-uBPDbf away from me, I still ask myself that question everyday.  But I have far deeper questions than that... .

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes