Redux (new information) and Trying to Detach not sure how. Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I kinda keep saying that, time to move on and I need to Detach. There just seems to be some pressure to examine whether I'm acting out of fear. And I am. But not fear of her having made myself vulnerable and being rejected. But being vulnerable and being accepted by a woman who at best is dishonest and incapable of a sustained relationship and at worst toxic BPD/NPD and could ensare me in a cycle of devalue/discard for years.

BTW the sleeping with (oh sorry "dabbling with" the other guy is not the betrayal per se (though it does show a much more cavalier attitude to both sex and to me then I believed). it is in full knowledge of how hard it was for me to open/share all those parts of myself she relentlessly pushed me to it only to discard it all the next day and then disappear from my life. The other betrayal, pshaw, I had simply walked away. That one sticks with me. Again what I'm trying to take is something positive; that my heart WAS opened up. I'm not shutting it down again since that was the mistake in the first place that made me vulnerable. Truly I'm just looking to detach without having to examine inane conversations that should never have been had or wondering if my fear of this woman is valid or not. I think you'd agree that she is not worth it and fear of reconnecting with her is valid.

1st T,
I suspect that you're in the "angry review" stage. I think anger is an appropriate response to betrayals and it is one step of the process on the way to letting go.

And yes, I think you suffered a betrayal. You opened yourself to her when you slept over and then she betrayed you with another guy and that goofy talk about only using the sex toy with you.

I think you're probably angry with yourself for letting your guard down for an unreliable woman after being out of the relationship market for so long.

Forgive yourself. Just about everyone here has done the same thing, other than those folks who have a BPD parent or child.

You did the best you could. Time to move on.

 
Cat

[1stTimer]

I kinda keep saying that, time to move on and I need to Detach. There just seems to be some pressure to examine whether I'm acting out of fear. And I am. But not fear of her having made myself vulnerable and being rejected. But being vulnerable and being accepted by a woman who at best is dishonest and incapable of a sustained relationship and at worst toxic BPD/NPD and could ensare me in a cycle of devalue/discard for years.

BTW the sleeping with (oh sorry "dabbling with" the other guy is not the betrayal per se (though it does show a much more cavalier attitude to both sex and to me then I believed). it is in full knowledge of how hard it was for me to open/share all those parts of myself she relentlessly pushed me to it only to discard it all the next day and then disappear from my life. The other betrayal, pshaw, I had simply walked away. That one sticks with me. Again what I'm trying to take is something positive; that my heart WAS opened up. I'm not shutting it down again since that was the mistake in the first place that made me vulnerable. Truly I'm just looking to detach without having to examine inane conversations that should never have been had or wondering if my fear of this woman is valid or not. I think you'd agree that she is not worth it and fear of reconnecting with her is valid.

1st T,
I suspect that you're in the "angry review" stage. I think anger is an appropriate response to betrayals and it is one step of the process on the way to letting go.

And yes, I think you suffered a betrayal. You opened yourself to her when you slept over and then she betrayed you with another guy and that goofy talk about only using the sex toy with you.

I think you're probably angry with yourself for letting your guard down for an unreliable woman after being out of the relationship market for so long.

Forgive yourself. Just about everyone here has done the same thing, other than those folks who have a BPD parent or child.

You did the best you could. Time to move on.

 
Cat

[1stTimer]

This is an interesting inventory and contrast of likely motivations. You have gone from the extreme of the "Hail Mary love poem" to, now, HD Tudor. It makes me wonder why, if she had someone else, she would pursue you for 18 months... .that's a lot of work just for the joy of hurting your feelings one day.

Ok Skip but you can see hyperbole aside how the overarching analysis of her might be a lot more spot on than poor damaged girl trying to deal with Grand Gesture.

Of course I go back and forth. What ELSE do people do after being loved and discarded by pwBPD? I don't know if there was someone else for 18 months. I am pretty certain there was at the end. I know by her words at least she had a date and 'dabbled' a few weeks before all this and was considering other dates (while giving me keys to her apt and emptying drawers in her bedroom and asking me to reoconsider moving to california for HER). I don't truly think she did it for the joy Skip. I don't know why she did it. I know she knows that I didn't 'misunderstand' and ask her for more and she knows how hurt I was and didn't reach out to succor or comfort or provide me with closure as I did with her.

Is their a real difference here?

• to protect myself from being vulnerable
• to protect myself from harm

Before I answer that I need to write down here what your take on this situation seems to be to me, as I keep trying to detach having come to the conclusion based on all of hre behavior that if she is not BPD/NPD she is simply bad news for me to reconnect with. You seem to come from this scenario:

This girl pursued me for 18 months, I took advantage of all she had to offer emotionally and physically while withholding affection/appreciation due to 'fear' and that when I finally aske for a relationship when I was ready she said no, I verbally attacked her, stormed out, went NC on her causing even more damage and then thought a little poem by way of a Grand Gesture would make it all better and got mad when it didn't in a few short weeks and am not, out of the same fear that damaged the relationship, running so as not to have to deal with possible rejection.

It is a nice screenplay to be sure, it is not close to what happened. I simply didn't give her the romance/relationship she wanted when she wanted it. She could have cared less what I could give and pushed for it relentlessly. I was a great friend to her, I was instrumental in getting her a 50% raise that changed her life, listened to all her problems wihtout judgment and was helpful in her solving many of them, was kind, affectionate, and did not 'use' her for sex in fact, even if this is TMI it is relevant, I had ZERO orgasms in the whole time we were intimate compared to probably 100+ for her. Not that I count but the point is I didn't use her from any point of view, brought a lot to her life, and especially as she was just coming out of a relationship with an emotionally abusive man that almost destroyed her.

My mea culpa took on way more onus than it had to in order to try to restore any damage I caused by not "appreciating" her more, which was made all the harder by her being inappropriate and disrespectful of my needs e.g. asking me to buy us a place in NYC no less on what amounted to our second date.

I'm not the heavy here. She is. Intentionally or not.

Breaking up the day after practically a shotgun wedding she set up, gaslighting me to try to buy into it all being a misunderstanding on my part, and then disappearing on me for 3 months are bad bad things and not a thing I did deserved that. To repeat; not a THING I did to this girl deserved any of the things I got in return least of which the end and the discard/NC.

One thing we always advise members is to seek to be more emotionally mature in the breakup (and going forward in life) than we were in the relationship.

Other than my reactive texts to her texts that were near impossible to not be reactive to I was quite mature and honest. And after having her ripped out of my life after she'd relentlessly extracted every part of myself I told her I could not give, what did I do Skip? I took my own hurt and pain and confusion out of the equation, learned to communicate better and wrote not one but two beautiful, healing, non-recriminatory letters to her. Id' say that is emotionally mature.

Where does my most recent 'paint it black' come from? Her radio silence yet again which is mean and disrespectful to a man she apparantly considrered spending her life with. She did it when she cut-and-ran. She did it AFTER she invited me out to meet her, she must have known how painful that would be. And whether or not my Grand Gesture told her to reach out when and if she was ready she reached out IMMEDIATLY. And asked if I could be available to speak ad hoc on her whim that week. Everyone who read that finds it not disrespectful (I do) but downright weird and I said yes. That was three weeks ago.  So clearly she changed her mind. Why? Who knows.

Yet if she decided there was no reason to meet me to 'speak truthfully' if the truth was just 'not intereste/with another guy/never loved you/can't be lovers' whatever, than I'd say I earned an email or letter or 'thoughtful note' saying just that. If not for me even then for her so she could just slam the door and not worry about follow-up emails, flowers, text.

So as I've said, it just sheds more light on either how she felt about me or how selfish/damaging she is. I'm supposed to now guess or wait or figure out after... .a month? 3 months? A year? that oh ok she doesn't want to reconnect. Plain mean and selfish. And birthday party and nice texts aside what has she been beside that? What she wanted from me when she wanted it and damned what it cost me.

So you ask me the difference between "vulnerable" and "harm"?

When you are afraid of getting a 'no' when you want a 'yes' you are afraid of being vulnerable, and that is no way to live your life or your love.

When you are afraid of physical or emotional damage from a source that has already damaged you you are afraid of harm and that is a way to stay alive and unharmed.

You seem to think my fear is that she may reject me now. To be honest, even if she came back to ME with a Grand Gesture, it would be a Hail Mary between how much I did NOT love her and how little trust I have in her since.

But in fact Skip me fear is that she may ACCEPT me. Becuase all indications are that she is damaged, likely toxic pwBPD or even pwNPD and I've just made myself hugely vulnerable with an over-the-tip mea culpa she could use to ensare me in an endless cycle of devalue/discard and I'll be on this board for a decade until I walk off a bridge. I just want to be on here (as a 'patient' for a few weeks to detach myself and go love a woman who deserves my love. I know how to love. I always have. I was not ready when she came into my life and it I were ready I would not have been with her.

There are far better women out there, far better ones for me. I know this because I've dated them, they've date me, I've loved them and they loved me.

[1stTimer]

Thanks for explaining the enlightenment you were speaking of in the "Hail Mary". I asked because, regardless of her, that enlightenment should survive the relationship.

Here is a place we fully agree Skip. Because I kick myself sometimes for sending her that letter. But since I know she is not 'evil' and at least part of her is the girl I cared about then I gave her something that is hopefully valuable/healing to her.

But in any event for me, it allowed me to express who I am, to learn to put aside my own hurt and pain and confusion to try to understand/validate my partner's (thank you for that) and it allowed me to in the future either accept something fully despite my fear OR reject it if I can't get past that fear.

Add to that that she dragged my heart open despite myself I end up with all of that and an open heart. To summarize:

- Gave someone I cared about some love/validation/healing/closure/appreciation
- Learned to be fully present without fear in the choices I make or to not choose them until I can
- Keep my heart open
- Listen to my instincts
- Never start a land war in Asia

[Skip]

This girl pursued me for 18 months, I took advantage of all she had to offer emotionally and physically while withholding affection/appreciation due to 'fear' and that when I finally aske for a relationship when I was ready she said no, I verbally attacked her, stormed out, went NC on her causing even more damage and then thought a little poem by way of a Grand Gesture would make it all better and got mad when it didn't in a few short weeks and am not, out of the same fear that damaged the relationship, running so as not to have to deal with possible rejection.

1T, this is not how I see it... .nor is how I see it critical.  

It's about how you see it. My posts to you have been mostly trying pull you into the center of your reality and the center of your emotions where both the truth and your opportunity for healing lies.

We I first started posting with you, you were painting her black. I tried to center you and encourage you to look at her behavior with the same compassion that you look at your own, and your swung all the way to white. I tried to discourage you from flooding her with a grand gesture because 1) they rarely work, and 2) it would raise your expectations to extreme levels and set you up for a fall. It did and you have now swung all the way back to black.

Living on these extremes is hurting you, 1T. It's hurting you a lot. Its hurting you in many ways.

Do you see that? Do you see that if you can occupy the center that you will not be so tortured? You will be able to weather this situation much better? Do you see that someone who is trying to bring you to the center is helping you?

Whether she is white or she is black. Whether you are detaching or trying to reconnect. Whether you are trying to ask her to be your girlfriend or lashing out and walking out the door... .Whether it is 2008 or 2018, the common thread in all of these things are your extreme swings.

That narrative above is not how I see it. I'll be glad to share what I read between the lines if you want to know. What that narrative above is how I was telling you she might see it (although not as extreme as you have it written it above).

Most importantly, your work here is about you. Moving forward with this girl or exiting the relationship and grieving are very important, but secondary. What brings you here is the pain you have been feeling and that pain transcends this relationship.

Ultimately you have an important choice to make. Do you continue to ride these emotional waves (we have members that will ride those waves with you), or do you fight yourself to settle down and get to the center with the help of members here.

We have choices. Good mental health is often the hard choice.

[1stTimer]

Thank you for that Skip, it gives me a lot better insight to your motivations and your own insights. I likely did not even pick up that you were discouraging me from the Hail Mary to be honest I sort of felt like I was being encouraged to reach out and mea culpa. I'll gather that was not the case but too late in any event.  As I mentioned, I saw it as 50/50 since just waiting for her after 'no worries reach out when you want I am here' while seemingly the perfect space to give her ran the risk of her using that space to remember all of the doubts she expressed in that text exchange.

I don't see the Hail Mary as having hurt 'my chances' (if I want them) if she TRULY felt the way she implied/expressed she did. I think if she did it might have delayed it since now reaching out is not just a tentative reconnection but a very charged one. Let her sit with it, I need time anyway clearly.

In any event again I appreciate this reply and get what you are saying. I don't think she is black (evil, intentional) I don't think she is white (virginal victim of emtotionally stunted man) but I do think she has some major emotional issues and has moral/ethical ones that don't align with mine. Even when I lash out I don't believe what I say but it feels better Naturally I'd love to know if/that she really felt that way and that she has struggled with losing me if only because she is the first person I LET like me and... .it felt good to be known, appreciated, wanted, chosen.

So maybe the Hail Mary is good Skip for a few reasons; it let me take some ownership and move her off of Black. It hopefully addressed all of those uncertainties she had about how I felt that she expressed and give her at least after the fact some solace. And maybe it delayed us reconnecting until I can work out my stuff and she can work out her stuff and when she is ready to reach out (which I believe she will if she truly felt that way) we will REALLY see what we have. I will say it is interesting to me she is even still reaching out/replying as again we had a very short relationship which never got to 'intense'. I mean we've been apart almost as long as we were 'officially' together (not counting the 14 months of sporadic texting prior). Something is keeping us tethered... .

Thanks again for your reply it meant a lot to me.

1T, this is not how I see it... .nor is how I see it critical.  

It's about how you see it. My posts to you have been mostly trying pull you into the center of your reality and the center of your emotions where both the truth and your opportunity for healing lies.

We I first started posting with you, you were painting her black. I tried to center you and encourage you to look at her behavior with the same compassion that you look at your own, and your swung all the way to white. I tried to discourage you from flooding her with a grand gesture because 1) they rarely work, and 2) it would raise your expectations to extreme levels and set you up for a fall. It did and you have now swung all the way back to black.

Living on these extremes is hurting you, 1T. It's hurting you a lot. Its hurting you i many ways.

Do you see that? Do you see that if you can occupy the center that you will not be so tortured? You will be able to whether this situation much better? Do you see that someone who is trying to bring you to the center is helping you?

Whether she is white or she is black. Whether you are detaching or trying to reconnect. Whether you are trying to ask her to be your girlfriend... .Whether it is 2008 or 2018, the common thread in all of these things are your extreme swings.

That narrative above is not how I see it. I'll be glad to share what I read between the lines if you want to know. What that narrative above is how I was telling you she might see it (although not as extreme as you have it written it above).

Most importantly, your work here is about you. Moving forward with this girl or exiting the relationship and grieving are very important, but secondary. What brings you here is the pain you have been feeling and that pain transcends this relationship.

Ultimately you have an important choice to make. Do you continue to ride these emotional waves (we have members that will ride those waves with you), or do you fight yourself to settle down and get to the center with the help of members here.

[Skip]

I likely did not even pick up that you were discouraging me from the Hail Mary to be honest I sort of felt like I was being encouraged to reach out and mea culpa.

If you read back, you will see I was encouraging "baby steps". So was Gemsforeyes. I named it Hail Mary to make the point that it was long shot. But that ship sailed.

I get that the emotions swings make you feel better, it the day. I get that they are deeply ingrained. But they are not helping.  Did you listen to that Tudor video I linked you to?

[1stTimer]

If you read back, you will see I was encouraging "baby steps". So was Gemsforeyes. I named it Hail Mary to make the point that it was long shot. But that ship sailed.

I get that the emotions swings make you feel better, it the day. I get that they are deeply ingrained. But they are not helping.  :)id you listen to that Tudor video I linked you to?

I'm kind of glad it sailed to tell the truth. Like I said if she felt the way she felt I don't think it hurt it only delayed. I mean if she has been wanting to reconnect (clearly she did when I texted her) then this at the end of the day is good stuff. It just puts more on the table explicitly so makes it a more charged meet if it happens (which clearly makes it harder to choose to do). I get she has retreated each time we are about to meet but since I've made it clear I am not angry or looking for answers I'm going to guess what worries her are her feelings.

If she did not want to reconnect well... .then it didn't hurt either since it would just make her not reconnect anyway.

Do you think her saying she'd reach out and then not (after three weeks) means she changed her mind and won't? Wouldn't the best solution if she decided not to just be to email me and say that? Like "Hi look I reconsidered, I don't think reconnecting makes sense now. I cared about you. But I need to move on". Or something like that to close the door instead of keeping the door open (for me to follow up or her to reach out) or even to give a guy who just made a really nice gesture some closure vs spinning in the wind?

Anyway no I didn't listen to Tudor. I've been on his site before I got to bpdfamily and read his stuff. It's almost like he's found a way to prey on NPD victims that were not his by playing into their worst fears. So I left his site (I did like NicoleMethod). I did't even notice the Quora reply was his until I sent it to you, I should have given the depth of thought he gave to all the victim types.

[1stTimer]

common thread in all of these things are your extreme swings.

Just for some perpsective on the swings and even when I was with her the hair-trigger reactions; when I moved back for my father I didn't have a room and haven't for years. I live on a full size bed in the kitchenette. It has been a highly charged home with my father's illness for years, then my mother's depression and I have a sister who was both in rehab and then in and out of institutions who has extreme anger issues on top of everything who is constantly cursing, slamming, etc and also made me the scapegoat for many things in the family. So not only am I in a highly emotionally charged and conflict-heavy environment, I've been in one without a door to close. It's like being out in the middle of the prairie with no cover with leopards on one side and snakes on the other. So I react now just like that; spinning to my right and to my left and always on guard. I get that. It became clear to me when I lashed out with her and even here. I am trying to get that under control, until I can get my business launched and be able to afford to care for myself and take care of my mother, I'm stuck in that situation so I'm trying to learn ways to de-escalate and re-calibrate my reactions to what they were before. Not an easy task.

[1stTimer]

That narrative above is not how I see it. I'll be glad to share what I read between the lines if you want to know.

Well I might regret this but now my curiosity has the better of me. After all my ramblings here what is it you read between the lines in this story?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear 1stT-
I apologize for my technical challenges- I don’t know how to show what Skip posted, but in his response #46, I strongly believe he hit the crux of the issue.  The core of it.  And you, my friend are feeling that... .I believe you are getting to the point where you want to stop fighting yourself.  It DOES take us a while to get there.  Pain and confusion brings us to this day.  And Cat very accurately stated that you need to forgive yourself.  You may not understand fully what that means today; but you will.  And then you’ll “forgive” 36-hour BPDgf.  Please stop yourself from even thinking that she doesn’t “deserve” your forgiveness.  This isn’t about her right now.  It’s ONLY about you, 1stT.

The question you ask Skip “what is it you read between the lines of my story”?, is I believe a larger question than you may think.  I don’t want to say anything until Skip begins.  And then I’ll join back in.

I just want you to know that you can and WILL come out of this spin that I feel you’ve been caught in.  You simply need to allow yourself to do that.  You will not need to repeat the things that happened during that week anymore, or what led up to that.  Or her “future bombing”.  Or your beautiful letter/Grand Gesture.

1stT, when you allow these things to happen and these questions to be asked and answered, let yourself love the questions.  It sounds like a dumb request, but please sit with this... .I am asking you to let yourself love the questions.  They are only about you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

The question you ask Skip “what is it you read between the lines of my story”?, is I believe a larger question than you may think.  I don’t want to say anything until Skip begins.  And then I’ll join back in.

guess you're saying I may not like the answer?

I just want you to know that you can and WILL come out of this spin that I feel you’ve been caught in.  You simply need to allow yourself to do that.  You will not need to repeat the things that happened during that week anymore, or what led up to that.  Or her “future bombing”.  Or your beautiful letter/Grand Gesture.

Look that would be great. It's like chasing a conundrum there is no answer. Cat did say that if you look at actions, not words you have your answer. Yet the answer from actions makes it hard to feel anything like forgiveness.

1stT, when you allow these things to happen and these questions to be asked and answered, let yourself love the questions.  It sounds like a dumb request, but please sit with this... .I am asking you to let yourself love the questions.  They are only about you.

I'll try Gem you know that and I really appreciate where you are coming from. Sometimes it has felt like people have not understood the story and made me the bad guy but maybe that was just me jumping back and forth between blaming her and blaming me since I couldn't find an answer.

It's almost worse being here (one reason I did NOT want to open up to anyone right now) since on top of what I need to finish to have a life back again which I am back to doing without support/love I've now had the support/connection I finally had back in my life ripped away too. I didn't want to want/need anyone, I didn't have the emotional energy to spare. I told her that. She didn't care, she wanted it. So here I am with that severely depleted AND w/o her to turn to at the same time. I asked her not to ask man.

Anyway. Thank you.

I will repeat since you mentioned the 'simple note'; I do not regret the letter in terms of it having any effect on 'reconciliation'. If she was true somewhere in there it will matter to her, if she was not it will not. You said a flower would force her hand to tell me if she was with someone, I think the letter will force her to really see how she felt.

And yes, Skip's letter was my favorite Skip letter yet  I got where he was coming from finally.

Thanks as always for your support I think you were the first one to reply to my original post and let me know I was not out of line to react as I did to the way I was treated since I was blaming myself for that when I got here too.

[Gemsforeyes]

1stT-
I have to say... .and I don’t share much with people, but there is more compassion here than I have seen from people, so called “friends” I have known for almost 50 years.  I am 60.  I have, for some reason been a magnet for NPD/BPDs... .I just never knew it.  I was known as “the happy idiot” by my family because I handled EVERYTHING with humor.  But I am no idiot.  Just a person who learned very early to forgive unforgivable behavior because as I recently learned, my own older sister has very STRONG BPD traits.  And she inflicted her cruelty on me since I was 11.

When I first came to this site, I didn’t post for a LONG time.  I read... .learned the tools to try and understand my uBPDbf’s behavior.  I read so many people’s posts and so many things were familiar to me, that I felt I could help in some way.  I didn’t realize at the time it was NOT ONLY because of BPDbf, but my experience with my sister... .

I want you to know, let me put it this way... .when I got out of my own way, and had to exit my relationship, actually did my own “deep dive” post and truly READ what people were telling me, I LISTENED.  I really had an Wow moment the other night.  And again... .it is SO important to reach out to others here.  To learn about the disorder, and about myself and my codependency.  I still have a lot to heal from... .I think you do, too. 

That’s what I meant about Skip’s question.  That is NOT about you not liking the answer.  I think we not only need to love the questions... .we need to love the answers.  They can surprise us.  There is that adage - “don’t believe everything you think”.

Everything I’ve learned here, I will take into my friendships, any future romance; but especially to help my beloved niece deal with my sister (her mom).

No, I don’t think coming here was “bad” for you.  You can see there are “friends” staying WITH you, so please  stay with us.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

Hi Gem as always thank you.

I try to listen and read I really do. I've made a lot of progress and movement at least on my self. Some things I either resist and come to (e.g. Pearl had some great advice on my letter) which I at first rejected but when I woke up made total sense. I took Skip's advice to take a look at my own behavior. Some things I reject simply because with my hand-ons experience of what happened don't make sense to me (eg 'we see things differently' being anything but her trying to say I'd gotten her desire for a relationship wrong).

I will try to be more open to what I hear as I really do want to move past this. I'm clear it is not the girl herself.

I've figured out some parts of what I am feeling loss on. For instance I don't worry about her having sex with someone else. When I worry is when I imagine her apartment. And I realize that I've been living in such a toxic environment for years without a door to close and with conflict that I had basically for the first time in years a safe place; quiet, no one knew where I was, peaceful and the only other person in the apartment (apparently) thought the sun rose and set on me. And on the last day there the promise was that would be part of my future. And it was ripped away and that person acts like I never existed.

In any event I'll try to forgive myself but it is hard; I knew not to open my heart to this woman and I did. I knew to walk away from that 'I'd cheat on him' day at the bar, I sent a damn letter which said it all and walked away. And still I walked myself back in. I know I can and should forgive myself but it is hard.

1stT-
I have to say... .and I don’t share much with people, but there is more compassion here than I have seen from people, so called “friends” I have known for almost 50 years.  I am 60.  I have, for some reason been a magnet for NPD/BPDs... .I just never knew it.  I was known as “the happy idiot” by my family because I handled EVERYTHING with humor.  But I am no idiot.  Just a person who learned very early to forgive unforgivable behavior because as I recently learned, my own older sister has very STRONG BPD traits.  And she inflicted her cruelty on me since I was 11.

When I first came to this site, I didn’t post for a LONG time.  I read... .learned the tools to try and understand my uBPDbf’s behavior.  I read so many people’s posts and so many things were familiar to me, that I felt I could help in some way.  I didn’t realize at the time it was NOT ONLY because of BPDbf, but my experience with my sister... .

I want you to know, let me put it this way... .when I got out of my own way, and had to exit my relationship, actually did my own “deep dive” post and truly READ what people were telling me, I LISTENED.  I really had an Wow moment the other night.  And again... .it is SO important to reach out to others here.  To learn about the disorder, and about myself and my codependency.  I still have a lot to heal from... .I think you do, too.  

That’s what I meant about Skip’s question.  That is NOT about you not liking the answer.  I think we not only need to love the questions... .we need to love the answers.  They can surprise us.  There is that adage - “don’t believe everything you think”.

Everything I’ve learned here, I will take into my friendships, any future romance; but especially to help my beloved niece deal with my sister (her mom).

No, I don’t think coming here was “bad” for you.  You can see there are “friends” staying WITH you, so please  stay with us.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

On the response to the Grand Gesture I am having a really hard time. I know we call it a Grand Gesture but it was not some "My Heart Burns for You" love letter. It was a caring letter that said I appreciated you more than I was able to say, I know that hurt you and I am sorry, I've learned a lot about myself and if you want we can reconnect, not to pick-up where we left off, but to start again with a walk in the park and see what we have. That is not some "Say Anything" moment, it is sort of a distillation of what any reconnection would be. The girl wasn't reaching out to meet at 'our place' to discuss the weather.

In any event. She replied almost immediately, asked me to be available to her at an hours notice that week. I said yes. It is now 22 days. She is not calling. How horrible is that and how indicative of the entire relationship and the entire end. Utterly dismissive of me as a person. Utter discard.

Clearly she or she and her therapist decided there was no reason to meet and reconnect if she didn't want to reestablish a connection. And decided she should not reach out and eventually, in 3 weeks or 3 months, finally get it.

But since she'd already reached out, wouldn't a man she cared so much about who made such a clearly difficult and caring gesture deserve to not just be sitting around waiting and finally figure it out? It's like standing someone up and letting them stand in front of the restaurant until they finally realize no one is coming. It is mean and it is cowardly. I deserved far more. I deserved more than being made to feel like I 'got it all wrong' whether she planned on the cut-and-run, got scared and ran, or found someone better. I deserved to not be discarded without a word or explanation just because she got what she wanted after asking me for everything I had. I deserved to not have her reach out to meet me only to yank it away as if I'd done something wrong. But mostly with a gesture like that which is as caring a gesture as most people get in their lives, let alone one used to emotional belittlement and abuse, I deserved some caring and respect. "Hi I thought about it, I'm not ready to reconnect. I cared about you too and knew you cared about me. I think we should leave it at that".

Would that be so hard? Wouldn't it be better than letting a man you cared about swing in the wind after that? Wouldn't it be better than risking that he'd follow-up yet again since you'd given him enough hope and openings recently to believe he could and should?

You'd think I DID something to her. We didn't have a big blow-up fight and break-up. She ran. No one can say to her about contacting me "Hey this is the guy who slept with your SISTER" or "He BEAT you for God's sake what are you returning to?" or "You called me every day in tears after he tore you apart and made fun of your therapy" or "He borrowed ten THOUSAND dollars from you and never paid you back" or "He's a loser who slept on your couch while you worked all day and then expected sex and bad sex at that". What can anyone say to her to make me treat me with such disregard? "He didn't court you"? or "This is the guy who didn't come to your grandmothers renewal vows when you weren't dating yet"?

I'm stuck with WHAT DID I DO? What did I do to this girl to make her run for the hills and make believe I never existed? What did I do that even when her heart wants to see me she runs for the hills all over again? What did I do that this girl who said basically she wanted a life with me could treat two beautiful letters any woman in the same situation would kill for with such cold disdain? What did I do that she can have such little caring for me as person she cared so much about she can think it is ok to just decide to let me 'figure it out' on my own with my heart breaking?

Wouldn't a therapist tell her you need to text/email in him in no uncertain terms that it is over both for him and for you?

I'm not upset my Grand Gesture failed. If I'd gotten some closure out of it I'd be fine.  All I did with it was give her a chance to repeat the same contemptuous discard she did the first time. I did't deserve it then and I don't deserve it now and the real problem with it is it puts me now 3 weeks out of the discard instead of 3 months.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi 1stT-
Here is the feeling and how I describe it... .he was the wind and I was the wheat. 

You ask... .“What did I do?”  My friend... .all we can gather is that you followed her wishes EXACTLY as she seemed to express them.  Whatever took place between her ears is anyone’s guess and will remain a mystery!  But my guess is whatever took place in that space was likely nothing too deep OR mysterious. 

Then You sent a letter that expresses exactly what you felt you wanted to express to her.  Your beautiful letter stated all the things you have previously been unable to express.  And had she been a person with a more “balanced” mind, who sees more than darkness when she closes her eyes, she would have provided a more balanced response. 

But 1stT, my experience has taught me that sadly there IS no closure with a disordered mind.  And if you go about reading on the detaching board here, you will see a LOT of people who are experiencing deep pain over being discarded - some after short relationships, some after years of marriage, others just weeks BEFORE or weeks AFTER walking down the aisle.  And most being left with no answers... .only questions.  The primary ones being “what did I do?” And “why/how could she or he DO this?”

And most of us asking why we accepted what we accepted for as long as we did.  So as we discussed... .we are left with “us”.  If we do this right, We get better.  And sadly, they generally do not.

But you’ll also see signs of hope, healing, empathy, compassion and understanding of exactly what you’re feeling.  I do get that you may want to give yourself a bit of a kick in the tookus for being 3 weeks out rather than 3 months out, but you DID learn some things about yourself, true?  So please know that You are NOT alone in this place or on this journey.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[1stTimer]

The last post I made is really zero-ing on my issue I keep chewing on; WHAT DID I DO?

What horrible thing did I do, what was so horrible about ME that a girl that went to such lengths to get me into her life and future ran like I had the plague and cut me from her life the moment I did. It's more than just 'got scared' of getting what she always wanted or got scared of all the things she future-bombed us with. Got scared would suggest settling down with the fear and reaching out for some contact, resolution, closure. Got scared would mean some happiness at my first letter, some emotion. The only thing that ever suggested 'Got Scared' was her happy text reply and her inviting me out and even her running back away ('can't make firm plans'.

So this is not 'got scared' because 3 months later we'd be talking, 3 months after not seeing or talkng to or touching the man you actually wanted to be with you'd have to reach out for him. This is... .turned off, turned away. Either I did SOMETHING unimaginably bad or she thinks she found out something unimaginably bad or someone is forcing her not to be with me.

But all I can ask mysel if WHAT DID I DO? A woman that doesn't find me attractive or see us together, I get it. But all that work for months and all that work for official ask and then discard? What. Did. I. Do?  "Never met anyone like you" and "you are one of the most handsome men I ever met" (not) and "best sex since I was 20" and "you are one of the closest people in my life" and "I want a relationship with you" and "I woke up so happy" (the day after I asked) and she expels me from her life. I'm just stuck with WHAT DID I DO? Even What is WRONG with me? Other than that single time she texted me and seemed so happy and so ready to reach out and see me in person I've gotten this super protected carefully constructed replies that are meant to not give a thing away it is like they are written by Spock.

What did I do and what is so terrifying? What is so horrible about what I did or she thinks she knows that would make her not only not just say 'look I can't do this can we still date casually and see' or 'look can we just be friends for now' (I'd have been fine with) but to utterly expel me and react almost in terror anytime we might meet?

[1stTimer]

Hi 1stT-
Here is the feeling and how I describe it... .he was the wind and I was the wheat. 

Love it. Sorry didn't see your post before I posted my Extended What Did I Do.

I do really appreciate the support and caring here Gem, especially yours.

I do in fact have some in my offline line. My friend Tony who's advice has consistently (after having been through this 20 years ago) "No Contact" and "you can dissect it any way you want she is where she wants to be now and it is not with you".

Also spent some time talking to my female friend at my bar,  what an utterly amazing woman. She's movng away next month and in love with a new guy but thinks I am amazing too and just really shows me the kind of woman I want to be with. Smart, independent, strong, feminine, creative, supportive, appreciative. To this day she tells people when we meet how much my support of one her dance projects meant to her and to me how much it meant to her. In fact the day after this happened I was at my wine bar and she was there. had not talked in a while but she sensed something I guess. She came up and said 'wanna talk?" I said "nah long stupid girl story you don't want to hear". She said "I want to hear every word" and listened and has since.

I know the kind of woman I want.  I know and knew this woman was not even close on any level; intellectually, spiritually, morally, physically. I mean her guide to life is Sex in the City  and Fifty Shades of Grey.  When I told her how my ex bought me flowers and said "I want you in my lfe" after she had cut and run she said that was stupid women dont' buy me flowers, my friend at the bar thought it was beautiful. When I told her (in terms of man protecting woman) "I want to protect my woman, I just want to know when  I fall to my knees she picks up the sword in two hands stands against my back and says no one gets past me to you" this girl thought that was stupid too, my bar friend said "YES! Partners!". I get this woman was not for me. Ever. I just don't get anything else.

[1stTimer]

Apropos of nothing Gem but tangentially relevant; just had a really nice compliment from a male friend when we were discussing both this little girl (I really think she is 15 internally) and the bar girl in terms of the guy she is dating. He said "Yeah she may have left you for abusive jerk and yeah (bar girl) boyfriend might be rich but neither one of them is noble. You are Noble. Who finds noble anywhere anymore?" That was quite a wow compliment for me.

[Skip]

The last post I made is really zero-ing on my issue I keep chewing on; WHAT DID I DO?

Healing is asking the right questions (or getting help with them).  

I think the meaningful question is, what happened between us? It's a little like reconstructing a traffic accident in court where 15 witnesses report what happened from their perspective and in their reasonable reality. It's like analyzing the Kennedy assassination film very carefully to truly understand what happened.

And then learning from it.

Two quick questions.

1. A simple request. Will you listen to the Tudor video?  I have a reason for asking you to do it.

2. Can you give us a brief, non editorialized, description of the relationship. We all know how things made you feel, but you can tell from comments that we have been confused as to whether this was an 18 months, 4 month, or 36 hour relationship. This is what I think you have told us, but I'm sure I don't have it exactly right. I've tried to follow... . Can you edit this (below) to make it accurate:

A. You were platonic friends for 14 months. She was interested in a romantic relationship, you were not. You didn't date, it was mostly running into each other occasionally at a wine bar and texting. B. You had a 1 sexual encounter and that lead to a 4 month causal relationship "more than platonic friends, less than exclusive dating" arrangement where you got to know each other on a more emotional basis. C. The "going steady" period (1 week? 10? days), where you decided to enter into an exclusive relationship and she wanted a formal commitment diner. D. And the "commitment dinner" and prelude where you had some conflict prior to the dinner, a highly romatic day after the dinner, and the "I don't want to do this" / "You opened my heart to other people" breakup and  NC. E. A letter confirming the breakup at 4 weeks NC. F. A re-connection text and letter/flowers at 8 weeks NC.

That's 150 words. Can you fix/embellish this chronology and limit that to 250 words - just a straight forward, factual/clinical (no editorial) encapsulation of the the relationship.

[1stTimer]

Can you fix/embellish this chronology and limit that to 250 words - just a straight forward, factual/clinical (no editorial) encapsulation of the the relationship.

250 Words? I can hardly sign my name in under 300 but I'll try

[1stTimer]

I managed 400 words. I know not 250 but at least is a personal best :|

A. She asked for #  after meeting me and pushed for me to ask her on date. I accepted 'drinks'. She pushed for relationship after wards, I declined. Texted on and off for months, her pushing while we got closer.

B. She asked in Decmber 2017 if I was talking to other women she was not talking to other men. I said no, she said can we start-up when you get back. I said yes.  We had a 1 sexual (non-intercourse) encounter and that lead to a 4 month causal relationship "more than platonic friends, less than exclusive dating" arrangement where you got to know each other on a more emotional basis.

C. She pushed hard in a variety of push/pull ways over 4 months and especially over 3 week period between late March and mid-April for a serious relationship and made it clear I needed to ask her if I now also wanted exclusive like she had all along so 'she could be sure'. I did.

D. A 4-day period commenced where she not only asked me to confirm but once I had informed me nothing official until an Official Ask over dinnerm, a highly romantic night and day after the dinner, (albeit with highly conflicting/cycling emotions on her part). Much discussion on her part about our future together.

E. Asked me to meet next day (April 21st),told me I was great guy but wasn’t ready for committed relationship with me. Implied I had misunderstood what she wanted all along. I left angry, thanked her for opening my heart and said I’d go give it to somebody.

E. After no word from her for 3 weeks (Mothers Day May 12th) I sent nice letter telling her I missed her and wished her well and thanked her again for opening my heart. Controlled reply “thanks for the nice note hope you are well”

F. Saturday June 16th sent her nice semi-romantic text. Immediate happy reply also seemed to invite further contact (“talk to you soon?”). She followed up next day “Would you be interested to meet at our place soon?”. Ignored my reply for two days then said ‘lots happening. Can’t make firm plans”

G. Left a ‘letter’ telling her I had not appreciated her as I should have, inviting reconnection for walk in park or tea to see what was there on Tuesday June 26th at her building mid-day

H. Reply that very night “Thank you for the thoughtful flowers and note. I am open to talk truthfully. Perhaps this week? Would you mind if I reach to see if you are available an hour or so before I think may work for me?” I replied basically “Of course”. That was 3 weeks ago.

[1stTimer]

BTW the only reason I have ANY idea it was eighteen months is she would always tell me she knew the exact day we met, October 16th 2016. If she hadn't said that I would have had no idea except "a few months before my Birthday".

[Skip]

Thanks... .that helps.  A few months before your birthday? If that was the case, how long would it be?

E. After no word from her for 3 weeks (Mothers Day May 12th) I sent nice letter telling her I missed her and wished her well and thanked her again for opening my heart. Controlled reply “thanks for the nice note hope you are well”

You recently said you "called her on her stuff" and ended with "opening my heart" to share with someone else.  Was the note conciliatory but ending with the implication that "I'm moving on unless you fix this"  - or was it calling her on her stuff? Or something else?

Did you watch the Tudor video?  

[1stTimer]

Thanks... .that helps.  A few months before your birthday? If that was the case, how long would it be?

You recently said you "called her on her stuff" and ended with "opening my heart" to share with someone else.  Was the note conciliatory but ending with the implication that "I'm moving on unless you fix this"  - or was it calling her on her stuff? Or something else?

Did you watch the Tudor video?  

I will watch Tudor this afternoon. I'm waiting for a stiff drink first

When I walked out I called her on her stuff "I knew this is what you'd do I knew this is what you were about when I met you. It is why I wouldn't date you then".

In the note on Mother's Day (I was highly triggered as she always told me she speaks to her sister, mother and grandmother about me they all know me by name and ask about me so assumed it would be part of discussion) I did not call her on anything or threaten her.

Told her I'd tried to figure out what happeend. Realized it didn't matter all that mattered was I was amazed at how much I missed her, how my heart would soar when I saw her name on my phone. How I was sorry I was not ready for what she had to offer. How perhaps in another life or time we'd both meet with open hearts and have something amazing. How I wished her the life and love she deserves. How I'd always remember her for opening my heart and it was a gift I could never repay but I hoped I'd given her something in return.

Again was amazed a) she replied at all (thought she hated me) b) her controlled reply and even at the time I said someone helped her construct it OR she wrote it because someone wsa monitoring her email and she didn't want to reveal it was a love letter she was replying to and c) that she did not reflect back to me the goodbye nature of my email and closed with 'hope you've been well'.

Damn, maybe her therapist things I'M the Narcissist/BPD person here and counseled HER to NC?

Anyway. Boxing now, Tudor in the afternoon. Thanks Skip.

[1stTimer]

Thanks... .that helps.  A few months before your birthday? If that was the case, how long would it be?

Oh I just mean I'd have had no idea when we met if she hadn;t told me the exact date. My bday is late December. We got closer in the fall because she told me about how she needed to write a proposal to get a raise and I spent much time asking her qs about the situation and drafted a complete strategy and then the actual letter and followed up a lot to see the status.

[1stTimer]

Skip now that I did the overview I wanted to give you some Post-Mortem evidence that might (or might not) help:

Nature of the 4 Month "Relationship" aks "we see things differently"
You characterized it as "more than platonic friends, less than exclusive dating" but I think we both viewed it as more. She was very clear before we started in making sure that I was not only not seeing anyone but not even 'in contact' with anyone i.e. she didn't want to be one of a few prospects and assured me she was not. I found this attractive as it is how I date.

I think there might have been mismatches on how we saw this develop ("we see things differently" but I saw it as my taking it slow and her pushing relentlessly for more regardless. I never didn't consider it monogamous however, I've never done anything but.

And her entire 'gestalt' was just that; she wanted monogamous, committed relationship, looking to marry, was a one-man woman (we even once discussed three-some she said nope couldn't even think of two men she is one-man woman). She told me she hadn't had sex in many months I told her same (at least one of us was telling the truth).

All of her actions pointed to that; making me set of keys, clearing drawer space out, telling me she was falling in love with me, telling me we had our lives to figure it out, and especially sitting me down to tell me I needed to reconsider moving my life to cali to stay in NYC and be with her and buy a place and start a life.

And lastly her words were very specific; when she 'accidentally' told me about her 'dabbling' with the guy it was not coincidentally the day she told me I was going to ask her to be my girlfriend 'officially' and I just didn't know it, she followed up by telling me (to my surprise) that she had not been intimate with anyone since we were but had 'dabbled' and then told me she told me just to get me jealous because she wanted me to get that we belonged in a committed relationship and I was one of the most important people in her life

Point being as I saw it we had been in one and were moving slow, I guess she saw it as we were not and she was moving me towards it. I still find is specious that you can on one hand 'respect' we are not when you 'dabble' and on the  other hand ignore that we are not when you want to discuss our future. I get that one shouldn't assume they are in a relationshio without 'discussion' on the other hand I think one can assume when a person gives you keys to their apartment and space in their bedroom bureau they consider you to be.

Thus the 'we see things differently'. I think. Again i can get behind *perhaps* seeing keys/drawers differenlty but hard to see "I want to be in a committed relationship with YOU" as anything else but.

Her need to be asked
At some point she asked me to meet her to tell me something very important. It turned out she needed to tell me she was in therapy (for among other things black-out drinking) in large part because she had had an affair with her (rich) boss who told her to wait for him while his divorce was pending. Classic BS as he really meant don't touch anyone else's penis while he had sex with an endless stream of women that for various reasons she knew about initmately. So I can see her "If a man doesn't tell me I don't assume" since she spent God knows how long assuming she was in one while she was not and the guy just wanted her to himself.

I don't really buy that you can on one hand assume you are NOT until asked and meanwhile assume you ARE by givng keys and drawers and discussing where to live but I digress. Point is I get why she had that rule.

On not trusting my feelings
As you remember I pulled over 1/2 a dozen quotes just from The Text Exchange where she expresses in different ways she is unsure of the depth or sincerity or motivation of my asking. This is after I asked three times in three different ways (each time with a Yes!) AND confirmed the next day in a special trip she made for just that.

What I don' t have in the timeline I did for you is after I confirmed and after our text exchange, she asked me to come meet her so we could "setting this" (her need to be officially asked and my not trusting why). One thing she asked me was "are you asking just because I went out on a date" and I said no. This was basically the truth in terms of what she was asking. I wasn't asking because I was worried about her having sex with other men. I asked because I realized she did because I had not in fact opened up about having come to the realization I wanted more and that I had in fact assumed things and should not. Not that I wanted her to have sex with other men, I just mean it wasn't 'damn I don't want to do this but if it will make her not sleep around I'll do it" as much as "damn I shold have let her know and I need to step up and stop holding back".

But my point on this is given her being unsure of how sincere I was and that question AND her history with her boss, she could have been concerned I was in fact just another guy not interested in a relationship BUT wanting to make sure he could eat his cake too.

Note too on that day I said I do not want to ask if this is not what you want; if you needed to be 'uncommitted' because there is someone else, or you are unsure, or you need to get things out of your system than don't ask me to ask because it means it is not the right time to ask. She said there is no one else, I have nothing to get out of my system and texted me "Of course I am committed to you, I just can't wait for you to ask me again tomorrow night"

On my anger on The Day
My first thought was she set this all up. I had no other explanation for being practically whipped into committing, agreed to the future-bomb and then told 'you are a great guy' the next day. Because. When we had our first date which went well, chemistry, kissed, next day she said she thought I was so nice, handsome, wanted a committed monogamous relationship I said VERBATIM "I think you are a great girl too, but I'm not ready for a committed relationship right now". Which is EXACTLY what she said to me (guy instead of girl). It felt like the ultimate set up. I had no other way to explain it.

With a few days distance I realized that was not likely but also was waiting for her to reach out and tell me what the f had happened. She never did.

On my first letter
Maybe phrasing it as a goodbye made no sense but Skip I had no experience with any of this, discard most especially. I was in utter raw shock over how fast it went from future to disappearance without a word or text or email from a girl I'd texted almost daily for a year plus. I assumed a) she either hated me or b) she had played me or c) she want back to Dom. I figured I'd lost her. So instead of some angry letter decided to just end with something nice vs the anger of the last time we met.

On how Tragic it is
I think we both aimed for the same thing and missed because of our own stuff. I think she pulled her 'jealousy' thing to close the deal and it set up a lot of mistrust in not just her but WHO she was in me and colored the rest of my interaction (see our text exchange).

She had the Jealousy Conversation the same day I was going to have the Be My Girlfriend Conversation. Which made me not want to ask her.

She thought I finally came around and asked her because I didn't want her to touch anyone's junk which is a lousy reason to ask for a committment and I asked her because I realized I should have asked her and she had a right to do so and I needed to treat her like a girlfriend and give to her that part of me completely. Which is what she wanted.

Our dinner was not about us agreeing to not have sex with other people, that was not part of my motivation. It was so I could open myself up and give myself to her the way she wanted and we could see what we had when I had both feet in as she did.

Anyway I don't know if this sheds light on anything for post-mortem maybe it is just floatsom around the dead body.

My own "guess" here is she has not written me a "look I don't want to reconnect" text because she processing. If she did go back to soul-crushing emotionally abusive Dom and left because she thought I never really cared about her, that revalations and tone and grace of letter has to be a huge amount of processing to do. It isn't just returning to me it is a major shift in life choices isn't it?

[1stTimer]

It's like analyzing the Kennedy assassination film very carefully to truly understand what happened.

That is not an encouraging analogy. We have 1000 theories, several movies, endless # of books, conspiracy theories, a man on the grassy knoll and still no one knows. Also am I JFK, Oswald or Jakie O here? Or all of them? :|

[Skip]

Did you watch the video?

[1stTimer]

Did you watch the video?

If you mean the 1:50 clip of the House of Horrors narrator yes just now. I'm not sure if your point is I am a furious narcissist :| or to point out that her behavior is no where near this.

[1stTimer]

I'll tell you one reason I am curious to see your 'take' on this is because you have been consistent in trying to get me to see I should not let fear push me to detach for various reasons including that often people do so and are in the wrong frame of mind then when the other reaches out. Leaving the likening me to a scared horse post aside :| that has been a pretty consistent them of yours; staying with the gesture/bettering and not running from fear of rejection/hurt. So I wonder if you see some hope in this. I mean I'd hope if you saw signs of real BPD/NPD danger you'd gently prod me to detach, but I'm sorta guessing from the video that you're trying to point out I've painted her with a brush that doesn't fit and might be closer in the grey>white than the black>grey scenario.