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Our court system and everything has failed.  He took S4 and now he's not giving him back.  I spent all day trying to negotiate and talk him out of it with no prevail.  He's throwing his weight around and keeps saying they will give him custody. 

He blames me for destroying the family.  He tells me if I had just tried harder.  He tells me that if I had just waited, he's making more money.  He says he's going to get the assault charge dropped because it was an accident.

I didn't go to sleep till almost midnight.  I am exhausted from crying and trying to get my son back.

Then he sends a message out telling everyone that S4 is safe and home.  He tells me that his buddies say "now the balls in your court, oh, now she wants to talk".

I hate him.  I wish everything he stands for burns to the ground.  Oh.. the cherry on top.  His estranged mother and him mended ties.  I knew the day was coming, even though I hoped it hadn't.  She is telling him that I mean to her and this and that.

I'm at my ropes end and I just want to lay down and go to sleep.

 :hug: :hug: :hug:

How did he get your son?


Best,

FF

There is no protective order or custody order in place and everyone keeps telling me that since his name is on the birth certificate, he has just as much right to S4.  Even though he doesn't have the birth certificate.  I was on my way to pick up the boys when he told.me that he picked up S4.  The daycare just let him take him because that's his dad.  They boys went there before and they've seen him.  What I don't understand is why they just let him go.

The only thing with teeth is a court order.  (Even then it can be difficult to get enforcement.  But a court order is the first step.)  Otherwise it's a virtual free-for-all with "possession" being the trump card.

You've been hoping for a protective order.  That's been delayed or maybe even impractical with the slow courts.  Is it time to file for divorce, present your documentation and make your case to the judge or magistrate for a very limited parenting schedule in the temp order?  If drugs or alcohol had been a problem before, then you could ask for random testing or testing before his parenting time.

He's changed tactics a bit, he probably sees parenting as a way to (1) claim he's a good dad and (2) get back at you for reporting and supporting a DV case against him.

Time to get some legal advice for options.

Exactly.

Big deep inhale and exhale. 

In the eyes of the law (as things stand now), it's unlikely to make a case that he did anything wrong or you for that matter (when you "took") S4.

Wild wild west.

Uggg

Can you make a call again for the protective order and/or legal aid?

Best,

FF

Sorry to hear about the set-back.  Breathe, find a way to get sleep.  Eat well, exercise.  It's a long game.  Keep your eye on the prize.  Have a vision of your wished for end state and keep it front and center.  Make a plan and execute.  Start with small steps.  When (not if) you have to change the plan, change it and start again.  Small steps every day.  The advice in here is first rate. 

But the first priority is to make sure your as healthy and strong as you can be for your children.  You can do this.  Good luck.  CM

Frankee, I am so sorry.

Can you contact the da, the shelter,  anyone in legal services?


My ex took my son the day I left. I tried calling child protective services but they didn't even try to make contact with him for two days and by then I had already gotten my son back. The only reason I got him back was because my ex had assaulted me the day I left and I reported it to the police who arrested him that night and returned my son.

Who is he going to get to watch your son while he works? His mother?

I hope you are documenting all of this and I hope you can get the protection order soon. This absolutely frustrates me to no end so I know you must just be horrified and angry.

And people wonder why dv victims don't "just leave "... when they do, the support and protection necessary for them is severely lacking.

There is a term called ROFR — Right of First Refusal.  Sadly, it only appears in court orders, if requested or ordered.  What it means is that the parent in possession must make parenting time available to the other parent when the parent will not be personally parenting for more than a certain length of time.

This can be a two edged sword if that rule would apply to both of you and not just him.  I had one for a few years, it was helpful in the early years of separation and divorce posturing.  My version excluded school and daycare hours.

I'm so sorry, Frankee.  I know this has to be horrifying for you.

Do you think your ex will actually keep S4 long, or do you think he'll get tired of parenting and/or tired of playing the game when you don't cooperate?

At this point, it sounds like you have written documentation that your ex picked up S4 in large part just to manipulate you.  A judge is NOT going to like this.

Which means we have to try to get it to a judge ASAP.

Thank you for all the support and feedback.  I have been trying to talk him out of it.  He isn't being reasonable.   I have a friend who is going to help me with a lawyer.  I think he is going to get tired.  He didn't even want to watch them two days while I went to work.  He's doing all of this to get my attention and force me to work it out.

He says he found a babysitter that has already met S4 and he likes her.  He won't tell me who.

I hate the fact it is the weekend and I can't do anything until Monday.  My head is killing me and I just want to go to sleep.

I'm going to have to do serious self care this weekend  Come Monday I need to be sharp.  I can already tell he isn't going to be willing to just give him back.  He wants to be heard and until he "feels" I won't  keep them against, he isn't budging.  He admitted he's a nervous wreck and he should be.  He knows he's messed up and he's hoping he can go back to how it was before.

He needs to make it through the weekend doing full childcare, and it won't be easy. At some point, he is going to want a way to bring S4 back and make it look like his idea and that he is doing you a favor. That's fine -- let him think that.

Also, my bet is that S4 will start asking when he can go home to mommy.I

In the meantime...yes, self-care so that you are super-sharp on Monday.

I had a small window of hope.  He was going to drop him off on Tuesday.  By some messed up chance, he got served the PO papers today and now he is completely freaked out.  Refusing to give S4 back. 

It's only a matter of time before I hear from his family about the whole situation.  It's only a matter of time before he sends out his stupid group messages to his family and my parents about the crazy stuff I am doing to him.

I have been through a lot, but my gut tells me I need to be prepared for a downright nasty fight.  He has left a few voice-mail.  The last one was him crying about why am I doing this.  He has already blamed me for splitting the boys (when he took s4) and for hurting everyone (because I left him.. he really said that), and telling me I am messed up because of my ex before.

He's throwing some hard punches, but I have a level head and a good friend backing me up.  I know at this point, with the PO and the assault cases, I just need to put my faith in the courts seeing the truth.  He's not going to go lightly and already talked about me being in perjury?  I don't know he attempts to prove that.

Every single thing you outlined that he said to you is exactly like what my ex said to me. It's really uncanny how similar the tactics are.

Do you have to communicate with his family? You could block them if they buy into his narrative and start harassing you with the "why are you doing this to him" crap. He's triangulating with them.

Save all the voicemails. It sounds like he's building your own case for you if he changed his mind about dropping off S4 after he got served with PO papers.

Is the PO for just you, or are the kids included on it? If they are, and it gets granted, he will be ordered to give him back.

Any chance of talking to legal services anytime soon?

And so by "served papers", does that mean the PO is active an in force now?

 :hug: :hug: :hug:

Best,

FF

The PO is for me and the kids.  I think that's why he freaked out and changed his mind.  He got served the paperwork, but nothing goes into effect until the judge decides what to do.  The hearing Nov 5th.

He flip flops on what he is doing.  Yesterday he blasted stuff all over Facebook about being a single parents, saying goodbye to S9, and a giant post about a narcissist.. which he didn't mention my name, but it was directed at me.  I have a second social media account that is strictly for the DV groups and I was able to see what he posted.

I don't really think he wants to keep S4.  He has made comments after the PO paperwork has been served that I have read between the lines.  Yesterday he said he was going to block my number, saying goodbye to S9 on social media, told me he didn't think I was a good mom.. blah blah.. now he's completely changed his tune... as usual.

Oh wow!  I can't even.. I don't even know where to start!  His mother.. his mother!  Is after me now!  That woman that I was nothing but nice to and tried to get exbph to have a relationship with.. has now taken full fledged stand with her son and telling me how wrong I am!  All because he visited with her once!  And now she declares that he has changed!

I can't even... the attacks are starting to happen.  Please pray for my strength and my sanity.

Well you know what they say about blood being thicker than water. It’s understandable that she’d like to believe he’s changed—he’s her boy, no matter what.

You know him, and how much effort he previously put into being a dad. A four year old is a lot of work, as you well understand. Sounds like he’s grandstanding and trying to elicit sympathy

So sorry. Stay strong. Court is only a couple weeks away.  :hug: :hug

I can't imagine a judge will be happy if your H appears for a protective order that includes the kids, having taken one of the kids from the very situation meant to protect them.

It would benefit him to return S4 well before the court appearance, but his mother might be enabling him and letting him think he/they can do it. You know he can't.

He's trying to get me to drop it.. I can feel it in his messages.  He throws his weight around and threatens me and the very next day he is trying to work something out.

I ignored his mom.  She's taking it way to far.  I told the DA everything and I honestly didn't think he ever sexually assaulted me, but when I told them about things that happened, they told me that is classified as sexual assault.  Now she's screaming at me.. why are you saying my son raped you?  Saying I have serious problems, why am I doing this to exbph, asked me why I kept going back if I knew there were problems, I married him, I had a kid with him...  just all the stuff spouted off by someone who has no idea what really happened.. it's just unreal.  I asked the DA for a copy of the PO.

I told my close girl friend about it and she says she would of bust down his door and taken S4 back.  I had to explain to her how I know that would go down so bad, especially when I have been in physical fights with him and tried to take S4 when he threw me out last year.

There was a moment where exbph warned me about what would happen if I left.  He even tried to say if I hadn't left him, nobody would of gotten hurt.  I feel like I'm d@mn Alice in Wonderland on a bad acid trip.

He’s on the losing end and he knows it. He’s doing everything he can think of to manipulate you. He will soon get tired of the parenting duties and he will be hoping you take your son back. But until then, he’s thinking that he can make you suffer and then be compliant with his demands.

Discount his mother—it sounds like you’re already doing that. Her allegiance is with her son, regardless of his history or his behavior.

And follow the letter of the law. I know it’s hard right now, but you want to do everything right and the court will see who is the responsible and appropriate parent.

He's changed?  Ha!  You know he needs extensive long term therapy — and even that may not improve him.  And probably you can't convince her, maybe she will see reality when he reverts, maybe not.  As the saying goes, blood is often thicker than water.

Promises can't be trusted, only actions/improvements over the long term.


Yes, follow the law but don't go too far.  By that I mean is you don't have to be super fair or overly fair imagining court will be impressed how nice you are.  You're a mama bear (finally!) standing up for herself and her children.  More or less there's a saying I learned here and it's often true... The parent behaving poorly often doesn't experience too much in the way of consequences, and the parent behaving well often doesn't experience too much in the way of credit.

So don't let him convince you to weaken your justified boundaries.  Best not to get into deep conversations with him, you won't convince him and there's risk he might manipulate/pressure you into making a legal retreat.  You  don't want to retreat into the past patterns.

Review the proposed terms of the PO.  Are there any impractical terms?  Likely it limits what contact he can have with you, including the conversations.  It's usually best to limit the contact to only the necessary items, usually just about appropriate child information and exchange details.

So...the "draft" PO is out there but isn't in effect..right?  (my state does it differently.  They normally issue ex parte and then have a quick hearing to modify)

When is the hearing?

Status of talking to legal aid about L.

Best,

FF

His mother is just as delusional as he is.

He even said in a text message that he was going to give S4 back until.he got served the papers.. I really keep thinking.. what $h!t timing.  I am praying it happened this way for a reason. 

I glanced over the PO, but didn't read it in depth.  I was a little nervous honestly.  I need to read it closer though.
I discovered something I can do on my phone.  I can mute notifications for text message for specific people (got a new phone).  It's a pretty nifty feature. I muted it for him.  That way I don't get random notifications from him and his crazy @$$ and drive myself crazy.  This way, when I am in a calm, collected, and prepared state of mind.. I check the messages he sends.  My state of mental health has improved since I did this.
It's a draft.  Out court hearing is Nov 5th and the DA said nothing is enforceable until the judge makes a ruling.  It's very hard to keep myself together, but the date is approaching.  I know he's losing it.   I know he's afraid.  He flip flops back from being nice/wanting to figure something out, on the completely opposite side where he tries to make me feel like complete garbage for doing this to the kids.

Keep this at the forefront of your thinking over the next few weeks...

You are not "doing this" to your sons. Your H has created this situation, and it is not playing out as he wants.

Two years of no contact and my phone still stays on silent almost 100% of the time because the sound of a notification sets off my nervous system. It's directly related to receiving messages from my ex.

I think it's really good that you have your phone set to this. It keeps you from being tethered to taking in communication from him anytime he feels like sending it.

Definitely save that text because it is proof that he is vindictively keeping S4 from you in retaliation for you setting a boundary around being physically abused by him. It is also proof that he is still engaging in active abusive behavior because taking your son and withholding him like this matches the recognized pattern that abusers follow.

I had to go to court to get my protection order too. The paperwork was filed and my ex was actually in jail when it was served. The judge asked me why I wanted it, I told him briefly some of the physically violent things my ex had done as well as how he had used meth in the house while my son was present. He asked my ex if it was true, he said yes, and that was it. I don't know what would have happened if my ex denied it. But there was a police report and pictures of my injuries, and he was in jail because of the assault, so I don't know what they would have done.

His mother does sound like she is believing what she wants to believe. It's frustrating when there are people who buy the bs someone else is selling. Don't let it distract you from your truth. It does not matter in the long run whether she believes you or not. My ex tried very hard to convince lots of people that I was the crazy one. He still lives in a world where he is the victim despite all evidence to the contrary.

The court date is not that long away. Stay strong and speak your truth clearly.

I'm having a real hard time today.  I don't know if others heard of the term dog whistling in abuse.. but I feel that way today.

He somehow videochatted with S9 off my old phone that I gave him to play games on, but doesn't have service.  I recorded everything that was said.

He keeps trying to figure out where I am at.  Before my court date, I am sitting down at my desk (finally got some furniture.. yay!) And going through everything.  I need to build a strong case and having him repeatedly try to find out where I am, isn't going to look good on him.  I am praying the courts will see I have constantly tried to thwart attempts from him to try to figure out where I am.

I really need to focus on getting some legal assistance this upcoming week.  Tonight I need to make a serious list.

I spent a good half hour in my bathroom crying because I could hear the underlining abuse, but my 9 year old is just a child.  H goes from telling me.. saying he doesn't want to see S9 and he's only worrying about his sin (S4) to.. talking to S9, telling him that he's his best buddy and loves him very much and is going to keep trying...  this is why I am going crazy.

Hello Franklee.  When reading your last post I was reminded of the term "flying monkeys" in reference to everything he is trying.  In my humble opinion, it's showing desperation.  His strength, his playing field is to engage you personally.  Your challenge is to ensure you stay away from his playing field and play to your strengths.  My GF had a similar issue and actually saw her ex walking around her condo looking for where she had "escaped" to.  The fortunate thing for my GF was a text to her ex stating he's been seen stalking and any further attempts at stalking would result in a TRO.  He was very afraid of a TRO as they were starting the process of divorce so he stopped trying to find out where she was. 

As for the old phone, it has two links to the "outside world", the cell link from a cell provider and WiFi connection to the internet.  I'm guessing you have not disabled the WiFi feature on the phone.  That is a weakness in your defensive wall and should be addressed.  What sort of games does your son play on the phone?  Can they be downloaded to the phone and then the phone put on Airplane mode?  Would your son know how to disable airplane mode?  I highly recommend you find a way to plug that weakness ASAP for the near term until you are better fortified legally.  Good luck.  CoMo

I messaged my girl friend in complete tears.  I told her I felt like I was fighting a losing battle.  I keep trying to remind myself that he may have a lot of people convinced of what kind of person I am, but he doesn't have the actual support I do.  I have four voicemails and if you had played them out in one complete voice recording.. you would think the person had schizophrenia the way they were all over the place.

He wants to keep using me leaving once a year, taking the boys out of school, out of state, shelters, moving around as ways to be slanderious and make me feel horrible.  Sometimes it works, sometimes I remind myself I was trying to get away.

I took the phone and looked it over.  He did go through Wifi and did a Google Duo Video Chat.  He even tried doing that my phone, but I declinded it.  I went onto the phone and blocked his number so he won't be able to call through Google Duo.  Him asking inappropriate questions to S9 because I wouldn't tell him is messed up.  I can't even tell my 9 year old our address or point out the name because I am scared he will accidentally tell exbph.  That's a constant state of stress.  You know S9 lied and told H that our neighbor was a woman... I never said for him to lie about the gender.. but he knew from what H has asked previously, it would upset H.

Today:  13 calls, 1 video chat with S9, was able to chat with S4
Yesterday: 20 calls

Voicemail.. Can we just say sorry and start over.  Can we just be friends.  Can we just move forward.  Can we just share them.  I want to do 50/50, where we share the kids.

Voicemail..  Fine, I am done.  I am done with your lies about being in danger, we will just go to court, you take what you have, I will take, but I am just done.  I think you have gone off the deep end, I think you need professional help, and I have told you I don't want to be with you.

I read an article on a case that happened where a mother lost custody of her children.  Something stuff out to me.  She was protrayed as anger, hostile, unreasonable, parental alientation, emotional issues.  It scared me.  It made me realize that effects of abuse can manifest in ways that can actually harm the victim when it's taken to court.  She lost her kids because after of enduring years of abuse, she was suffering from the effects and it made her look like the unstable one.

I decided to listen to everyone hear and focus on what I can handle.  I could spend day in and day out, crying and trying to shoo away the flying monkeys.  Or.. I can focus at the matter at hand.

Maybe I can get feedback on this approach.  Not listen to the garbage noise, but focus on the issues.  It's all about the kids.  He has made that clear.  Now.  My goal is to get them both back here living with me, going to school and daycare here.  He can see him on his days off.  I am trying to switch gears and from here out, stop getting roped into a you did this, you did that pi$$ing contest.  If something upsets me, I type out a message and I review the text to edit for emotional offsets.  I am trying to elminate his ability to know when something upsets me and try to feed off that emotion to get what he wants.

I think it is best to show that I am really thinking of what's best for the boys and weven though I am trying to figure it out still, I know that going about things the way I have, haven't been working.

Let the court do its thing.  Though it is quite tardy, it is better than the alternative.  You will only get minimally adequate behavior from your Ex if there is a Greater Authority than his.  That's family court and whichever other courts get involved.  Sure they're not always fair, you may not get all the justice you deserve, but it's so much better than his perception of his authority.

You're doing well despite his pressures of contact.  You're on the right path.  Just a little while longer and this important hurdle will be past. |iiii

Meanwhile, continue being the thoughtful yet protective mama.  You're doing well to pause, ponder and keep the emotions (that might sabotage yourself) out of necessary communications.

I fully agree that the courts and lawyers and a protection order will need to be involved.  He won't stick to anything for long.  Once he feels he's being betrayed or ignored or left out, he will just do this all over again.  I know that he wants to keep it out of the courts desperately.  He knows he's done wrong.  He knows he will lose control.  He knows what he fears will come true.

I threw him off.  We were have a grownup discussion about days off and visits.  I pulled out my mature negotiating persona and laid out things very reasonably.  It went from a real discussion to, well.. if you are going to hide him from me, they you will give me what I want.  Umm.. no.  I see what he is doing.  I present his with realy facts and offers and he can only take it for so long before he gets back onto the hiding S4 from him.  I think this how I need to handle every conversation with him from here on out.  Time to stop letting him rattle my cage.

Okay.  I may get backlash and I may not actually do it.  I am thinking about doing a grab and run to get S4 back.  H has gotten out of hand and I am honestly worried about my son's safety with H's state of mind.  I just remembered that H has a court hearing on the 30th for the assault case.  His alternator is going out and he can't get S4 back into school because you have to get approved for Pre-k.  And the daycare assitance expires (trying to contest the details of why), but means H has to pay out of pocket or get a babysitter.

To say the least.. he is losing his mind.

I am trying to think of a way to get over to the boat while H is at work and sneak over there not to alert his brother.  Get my son back and tell H's brother he has no legal right to stop me from getting my child and have the police's number pulled up and tell him I will call the cops on him if he tries to stop me.  Hopefully the door won't be locked.  I am hoping his dumbass brother doesn't think to lock the door because he has to go outside to smoke.

This sounds really dangerous and it could work against you at your court date.

I agree. This is far too close to "unlawful entry." You have to walk into your court appearance having a clean record and clean conscience.

 You say your H has a court appearance on the assault on 10/30. Do you know who is prosecuting that case? Are you being called to testify? Can you get in touch with the prosecutor and talk with them about safety concerns with S4?

I was able to get somewhere on the legal position with representation for custody/divorce.  I am going to be contacting the lawyers today.

I do need to stick to showing that I am fearful of him.. which actually isn't a lie.  He sent one message saying.. what are you going to do when they drop the charges?  What are you going to do when they don't give you the protective order?  What will be your excuse then?  You should be a proud mother.  I didn't respond, I just sent it all to the DA.

Watching his temperament change from what it was in the beginning has gone in reverse.  They haven't called me in to testify for the charges yet.  I'm scared, but my story isn't going to change.  I spoke the truth.  I am going to bring up my safety concerns to the protective order hearing.  I'm going to have the lawyer present his horrid behavior increase since he has had S4. 

I had assumed he returned your preschooler at some point.  Sorry.  Right now, lacking a court order stating otherwise, you both probably have equal but undefined rights to the child.  We're not lawyers here but that's my understanding from my personal experience and my years here in peer support.

The problem with going to retrieve your son from his property or property he has some level of control is that it could create an "incident".  Police might get involved, and who knows what else thereafter and when you finally get to court.  I believe that's what concerned Cat Familiar and GaGrl in their cautions.

Evidently he leaves your son with others when he goes wherever?  While you as a parent do have more rights to your son than others, whether his siblings or his parents, things can get complicated.

I know from experience that police were reluctant to get involved when I didn't have a court order to reference.


You have a few options.  You can ask the police to do a welfare check on your child.  Or if he leaves the child at a daycare or sitter, you can bring police with you and your paperwork including child's birth certificate and likely you'll get your child the less unsafe way preferred by the authorities.

In the eyes of the courts and laws, right now.. we both have equal rights.  great..

I'm probably not going to go physically remove him.  They may turn out bad and it may give him the grounds to try to argue me being unstable.

His brother was released from jail and I know he is having him watch S4 while he's a work and wherever.. he has his free babysitter back at the snap of his fingers.

I am scared to call in a welfare check.  I don't think there is going to be enough evidence to do anything and it's just going to piss him off and then CPS will be involved.  He probably has considered the fact I would call for a welfare check and taken precautions.  The police aren't helpful.  It's a civil matter and it's been made clear they aren't going to do anything unless it specifically states they can get involved.

H is trying to guilt me into letting S9 stay the night.  I don't think so.  He has lost his mind.  I know his game.  He is going to spend the entire time, filling his head with so much bs and garbage and talk smack about me.  Keeps talking about having S9 come home, let him live there to go back to his school, let him sleep in his own bed.  H is trying to hard to hold tightly on proving that S9's home is there with him and S4.

One of the hugest obstacles I am having to deal with, is filtering out who needs to know what at the proper time.  H sent me a message about saying S4 is back in school but how the school thinks it is unhealthy for him to go back and forth, so S4 is doing online.. meaning H told the school some boldface lie about what is going on with me.  So.  Trying to hold my stuff together and let the protective order speak for itself.

I talked with S4's play therapist H set up for him.  I felt I did really well keeping the topic about the boys and S4's personality and milestones.  I know that H is going to bring up things to the therapist, placing blame on me for this and that and trying to paint me to be a bad mom.  I was the better person and didn't do that, just stated facts.

Some days I feel like I am going to completely fall apart.  When people ask.. why didn't you just leave... why did you go back.. what I am having to deal with right now, is almost as hard to deal with as being with him.. but at least I am free.

People who ask why didn’t you leave, have never had an experience with an abuser. Those of us who have, understand.

It’s a pain to navigate the legal system, but at some point, you’ll be done and you won’t have to worry about so much, as you are now.

In most cases, a stepfather does not have rights to the stepchildren.  I think exceptions have been made somewhere, sometime.  With ex's issues, I doubt that any court would support him being granted time with S9.  So don't go down that path, it would make your case more complicated.  Of course, I don't know your state's laws.  This is where you listen to experienced local legal advice.

Have you asked for S4 back?  More than once?  Documented?  You don't want to tell the court you were waiting for ex to return him and ex claim you never asked for son's return.

How long until you can talk to your L?

I would ask L about calling for welfare check.  I'm a fan of doing it, especially when you think your pwBPD is at work.  Have police document who is caring for him.

I would encourage you to have his birth certificate with you at all times and it may be worthwhile to look into getting a photo id for S4 (thinking ahead)

Ask your L what happens if you show up at a baby sitters with your birth certificate and demand your child.

Best,

FF

H is trying to use the leverage that he is the only father that S9 has known.  While that it a valid argument, he also has no legal holding over S9.  I also look from it from the outside.  Even I would question.. your ex took S4 against your wishes and then you turned around and just allowed him to see S9.. that doesn't look good any way you put it.

I ask for S4 regularly.  Even attempted yesterday to get H to return S4.  I pretty much know at this point it is futile attempt, but I'm going to keep trying.

He is trying extremely hard to use the kids to guilt the every living cr@p out of me.  So much that it isn't even funny.  He's a hypocrite.  He's trying very hard to let me see S9, but flat out refusing to let me see S4.  Keeps claiming that he doesn't feel safe around me because I called the cops on him.  I know what it is.  He knows that S4 will be thrilled to see me and want to go with me and he doesn't want to deal with that guilt and scared that I will cause a scene to get S4 back.. he's not completely wrong, but I would never tell him that.

OK...and you can prove that you ask for S4 regularly?  Right?  I am assuming this is via text.


When do you get to talk to an L?

When is your court date for the PO?  Seems like early Nov...if I remember right?

Best,

FF

I think he's playing a "get back at you" game and if you're documenting all communication,  it should clearly highlight his abusive tactics.

Do you have to be present at the hearing tomorrow? Very likely the da will be there. If she doesn't know already, you may be able to speak with her tomorrow and tell her what he's doing with s4 and how he's continuing to harass and emotionally abuse you...because that's what he is doing.

Hearing tomorrow?

Best,

FF

This may be an opportunity to voice your concerns to the DA about S4.

Absolutely! 

I would recommend doing whatever is needed so you are there personally and able to speak in person to the DA and that you are ready to testify about the assault and the status of S4...and able to show text messages surrounding this issue.

 :hug: :hug: :hug:

Best,

FF

I'm seriously on edge today.  The prosecutor for the assault case and the attorney for my protective order called within 30 mins of each other.   The prosecutor was talking about jail time and probation.

I am scared.  I am scared the protective order will be dismissed due to technicalities on the county of residence.   I'm scared that because I didn't know what I was doing in the beginning that there are going to be holes in my story.  She asked me why I didn't work something out with him like I did the times before. 

There isn't a simple answer to all the questions.   The attorney for my protective order did mention that she think his personality and attitude is going to upset the judge.  H has been blowing up her phone because he doesn't have an attorney and she sounded extremely annoyed with him.

It's a huge mess.  All the past has just exploded all over thebplace and I am feeling shell shocked.

Was there a hearing on the 30th (or recently)?  What happened?  Did you go?

I would say that you "finally" realized he wasn't going to change and that your body and mind could not take any more damage.  Emphasize that you regret not taking such a stand earlier.

When are the next steps...next hearings?

When you say "attorney for protective order" is that also a divorce attorney?  Is that "your" attorney or someone employed by the state?  How did you get this attorney?

Hang in there..."perfection" is not required.  I'm sure courts are used to seeing people "realize" things at different times.


 :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: 

Stay strong!  I think you are getting close to the finish line!

Best,

FF

So...both of these prosecutors/attorney's know he took S4..right?

And one of them he apparently calls at the time..is that the prosecutor? 

Has he advised him to return S4?  Can you ask her to do that?

What do they say to you about how the court system will "see" him taking S4 the way he did?

Best,

FF

This is a solid answer:

I had to deal with those questions, too. Why is this time different? Why do you want a protection order now when you have left and gone back before?

I even had the court clerk tell me that I didn't need a protective order because he was in jail. I told her CPS was making me get one (which was true) and she rolled her eyes.

Part of why you returned was due to scarce financial resources and insurance purposes. Once you did, he hurt you severely and caused a serious physical injury to you. This time when you left, you have more resources in supporting yourself and the boys. It was the same with me. I finally got the support I needed to get out and stay out of the relationship. Many people don't realize how big of a deal that is in enabling an abuse victim to stay free, or how hard it is to find those resources. It isn't as easy as fleeing to a shelter and everything falling into place.

You can't afford any more serious injuries to yourself, and that alone should be enough of an answer.

What kind of "holes" are you worried about?

I know how it feels to be defensive about your reasons for staying, for leaving and returning, and for seeking protection after several incidents and years of abuse. It may just be that the attorney is asking these questions to gauge whether you are serious about needing protection or if you will get the protective order and then go right back to living with him again (which happens, more often than people think. I once knew of a couple who still lived together despite a protective order and anytime the woman got mad at the guy she would call the police to have him arrested for violating the order. This clogs up court systems which I think they likely want to avoid, especially considering covid).

Hold to your truth and speak your truth.

Is there another hearing? I take it he has not been sentenced. If he does get jail time, he will definitely not be able to keep S4.

Now, before the court appearance (I think you said November 5th), is the time to anticipate these questions, construct good solid answers, and then practice those answers until they come out of your mouth smoothly and with confidence. You may need to literally stand in front of a mirror and pracyice.

What other questions or challenges do you anticipate might come up?

He’s already showing himself to the attorneys even before the court date.

You’ve gotten some good advice on how to respond to the question of why you stayed.

People in the legal system understand that women in abusive relationships return to their abusers for a variety of reasons: financial, because he is their kid’s father, believing in promises that he will change, etc.

They do want to know if you are certain that you are done this time. And with all the changes you’ve made in your life and your understanding of who he is, you can clearly demonstrate that you are making a better life for yourself and your sons.

Previously you were a revolving door litigant.  No slight intended, of course.  You would seek help and then go back to the relationship.  They won't be very inclined to go out of their way to help someone cycling in that pattern.

But now you're done, WELL DONE.  You know you can't ever go back, retreating into past doomed patterns.  So don't let their questions shake you, you just have to be absolutely determined that you can't and won't go back.  In time they'll recognize that and support you better. |iiii

And to add to ForeverDad’s good advice, you tried very hard to give your husband a second, and third chance, for the sake of your children.

You held out hope that he’d change, but he didn’t. You tried your best to make it work, but now you acknowledge the reality that he was, and is, an abuser, and you and your children deserve to live without fear in a healthier environment.

I didn't have to go to the hearing on the 30th.  I guess they had enough evidence ithout me being there.  The prosecutor said they offered him 90 days in county jail or 12 months probation.  the probation includes no contact among many other things.  The protective order is just the order saying he has to stay away.  I am still trying to get legal help for the divorce/custody.  When I filed the protective order, I was assigned an attorney from the county.  I am pretty confident she's going to get it for me.

Thank you for the encouraging words.  I really need them at this time.
Everyone knows he took S4.  I basically broke down and cried to the prosecutor and PO attorney when I talked about it.  Everyone keeps telling me that he equals right to S4 as I do because there isn't any court orders.  I am honestly hoping that something will be said about it today in the hearing, but this isn't a custory hearing.  It's insane.  He literally said that he isn't doing anything wrong.

I've been trying to work something out, but we keep going back and forth on what we can agree on.  S4 going to school has been a huge issue.  I say I think he needs Pre-K, H thinks he needs his parents.  I agreed that S4 needs to be with parents, but our job as parents is to also give our children an education and building blocks to succeed in life.
In regards to why this time is different, is because you are right.  I have gotten the resources and help I needed in order to not end up having to go back.  My biggest concern is them asking how H was able to pick up S4.  Well, there wasn't a PO in place.  There wasn't any court papers stating that he couldn't pick up S4.  H has tried to paint me as this unstable person who can't provide a good home. 

He also keeps trying to justify the reason he took S4 is because he was protecting his rights as a father.  What if they see all the times I left and refused to let him see S4?  And then turned around and let him see S4. Even I feel I have been all over the place with this.  What if they see I am inconsistent and I go back and forth to working with him, to not working with him.  What if they see me as the parent who is being unreasonable?  Sometimes I think he is right with how the courts will see all of this and see me as the nutty one and give him custody?

Luckily the PO attorney called me and gave me a break down of what to expect.  Her words.. lay low and let me handle this.  She told me to only answer yes or no and do not be like.. oh, hey.. I need to say something.
I really feel confident about where I stand, even though some days I feel everything is falling apart.  I know that this time is last without a doubt in my head.  I'm scared about the protective order.  I don't know what it means aoubt getting S4 back.

So which option did he take or was he given (30 days or 12 months)...was something "imposed" on him?  Does he have another hearing over this?

Is there a hearing today?  Is that about the PO?

I'm not quite following the different timelines and issues?

So...the "county attorney" that is helping with the PO...will that one help with the divorce/custody/support as well?

If I count right..there are three different legal issues going on..right? (assault prosecution, PO, divorce/support) Do you have lawyers and a timeline for all of them?

Best,

FF

My attorney told me his first and most important task was to sit on his clients and stop them from talking. :(  He said he didn't want his clients to possibly sabotage themselves.

When asked a Yes or No question, pause and look at your lawyer in case he will make an objection, then answer Yes or No and STOP.

When you do have to answer with more details, then do so with a minimum of words.  If more is needed then your lawyer should be the one to redirect you into appropriate details in cross examination.

Totally agree with Forever Dad on this.

Having been through legal issues and depositions, my experience inclines me to advise you to say as little as possible. Do not go into explanations or try to be "helpful" or friendly.

If you want to buy yourself time, ask for them to repeat the question. (Everyone knows it's stressful for people not familiar with court processes.) Or if you don't understand what is being asked, ask for them to say it in a different way.

A trick lawyers will use is to be friendly, charming, and casual, and hope that you'll say more than you need to. Don't fall for it. Yes or no is perfectly adequate.

I would not be concerned about them asking how your H was able to pick up S4 if they are also telling you he has legal rights to him until something is court ordered- that answers the question.

I would think that if he has been offered jail time or probation for the assault that a PO should not be hard to get at all, particularly if no contact is built into the probation requirements. That is actually a good thing because it's extra protection for you- it says that he is so dangerous to you that they want him to not contact you at all regardless of sharing a child together.

I would think that this is shaping up to get him supervised visitation with S4 eventually in a setting where you will not have to have contact at all.

Hang in there. I know this is frustrating but I really think it's going to come out in your favor.

I wanted to first start by saying.. They made him give S4 back.   :wee:

I am honestly shocked.  I really just wanted to have the protective order to keep him away from the places listed and to give S4 back.. but they brought down the hammer.  I don't think it has sunk in what really happened yet.
The 90 days in county jail or 12 months probation (out of jail, but have to complete classes, community service, etc.)  Correct about the three different legal issues.  The protective order was granted, the assault case he has until 12/18 to decide which offer he will take, and the divorce/support.. well, that hasn't even started yet.
You are 100% correct.  They set supervised visits.  And the biggest part that blew me away.. 14 years protective order for myself and S4.. basically until S4 in an adult.

S4 is back home.  The judge told him to return S4 to me by 12pm the following day (Fridday) or he would had a warrant issued for his arrest.  H did return S4, and all of his belongings.  When I was going through S4 things, H stashed away all the letters I had written to him that he had kept, all the stuff the kids made for him, even my weddings rings that I left behind.  Even the valentine letter he had some draw when he was in jail.  I tore up the letters and threw them out.  I think I may have to start a new thread.  S4 is home, I have a 14 year protective order, and H is now saying he won't pay for supervised visits.

I think I can call this thread end and will start a new one.  I have a feeling this next chapter is going to bring a whole different set feelings and emotions.  There is a part of me that wishes we had been able to work something out for the boys, but then there is a part of me that knows he never would of let up if I hadn't done something drastic.

 :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

I'm so glad you have the protective order and that S4 is back home.

Please be kind to yourself and do something to celebrate.

Best,

FF

 :wee:
What an answer to prayer! And a reflection of you working very hard to make this time different and healthy. Really proud of your work and how you have prioritized the boys.
 :hug:

Breathe...

You are going to have a flood of emotions now that this is coming to a final resolution. What an incredible relief!

After everything you’ve been through, the divorce will seem easy.

Good news.  Long hard journey, but you stayed solid and consistent.  So nice to read.  CoMo

14 year protection order! That is huge. You never again have to go to court to get legal protection.

I think you did the best thing for your boys that you possibly could. No, you would have never been able to work out something with him without putting yourself at risk.

Congratulations. I'm so glad s4 is home safe. Now is the time to take the protection order paperwork to school or daycare and let them know his father is not to be allowed to pick him up. Ever.

I am so happy for you and S4!

You did such a good job focusing on your goals and moving towards those.  I hope you can recognize your own strength and power.  Now that you have the means to make healthier choices, you ARE, and you are building the foundations of a good life for you and your boys.

I'm so glad that S4 is back with you! A 14-year po is huge and will definitely help to make sure that he stays with you.

Also, nice work in managing your own stress and anxiety through this whole process and keeping your eyes focused on the goal!