He took s4

[ForeverDad]

Let the court do its thing.  Though it is quite tardy, it is better than the alternative.  You will only get minimally adequate behavior from your Ex if there is a Greater Authority than his.  That's family court and whichever other courts get involved.  Sure they're not always fair, you may not get all the justice you deserve, but it's so much better than his perception of his authority.

You're doing well despite his pressures of contact.  You're on the right path.  Just a little while longer and this important hurdle will be past.

Meanwhile, continue being the thoughtful yet protective mama.  You're doing well to pause, ponder and keep the emotions (that might sabotage yourself) out of necessary communications.

Once I downloaded my audio recording of the events surrounding my call for help, the officer listening said I had to make a report and they'd take it from there.*  She was arrested for Threat of DV.  The end result was that I got temp protection and possession of the home.  She came back a couple times, with police presence, to get her personal possessions.

So, did I regret doing so?  Frankly, no.  I had no other recourse.  Her increasing opposition and obstruction would have soon come down hard on me.  I chose to be proactive.  If I wasn't then she would have found a way to seize control of how our marriage was unwound.

I too felt sorry for her, I hadn't done anything for years as things got worse and worse, until I had to do something for protection of self and parenting.  So keep in mind, you have to do what you have to do, for the good of all.  We have a phrase here FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Beware of losing sight of what you must do and why...  But really, she's an adult and it is her responsibility to handle her own life.  Your concern, sadly, has to put yourself and your children first.

* I didn't mention it in this post but the officer emphasized that he'd seen my predicament before.  He strictly warned me not to try to be appeaser or passively withdraw my report.  He said this incident needed to be addressed in court or else my life would get even worse.  Yes, it led to my divorce but the divorce was eventually going to happen anyway but this way I was in control by setting the terms of the separation and the end to the relationship.

[Frankee]

Let the court do its thing.  Though it is quite tardy, it is better than the alternative.  You will only get minimally adequate behavior from your Ex if there is a Greater Authority than his.  That's family court and whichever other courts get involved.  Sure they're not always fair, you may not get all the justice you deserve, but it's so much better than his perception of his authority.

You're doing well despite his pressures of contact.  You're on the right path.  Just a little while longer and this important hurdle will be past.

Meanwhile, continue being the thoughtful yet protective mama.  You're doing well to pause, ponder and keep the emotions (that might sabotage yourself) out of necessary communications.

I fully agree that the courts and lawyers and a protection order will need to be involved.  He won't stick to anything for long.  Once he feels he's being betrayed or ignored or left out, he will just do this all over again.  I know that he wants to keep it out of the courts desperately.  He knows he's done wrong.  He knows he will lose control.  He knows what he fears will come true.

I threw him off.  We were have a grownup discussion about days off and visits.  I pulled out my mature negotiating persona and laid out things very reasonably.  It went from a real discussion to, well.. if you are going to hide him from me, they you will give me what I want.  Umm.. no.  I see what he is doing.  I present his with realy facts and offers and he can only take it for so long before he gets back onto the hiding S4 from him.  I think this how I need to handle every conversation with him from here on out.  Time to stop letting him rattle my cage.

[Frankee]

Okay.  I may get backlash and I may not actually do it.  I am thinking about doing a grab and run to get S4 back.  H has gotten out of hand and I am honestly worried about my son's safety with H's state of mind.  I just remembered that H has a court hearing on the 30th for the assault case.  His alternator is going out and he can't get S4 back into school because you have to get approved for Pre-k.  And the daycare assitance expires (trying to contest the details of why), but means H has to pay out of pocket or get a babysitter.

To say the least.. he is losing his mind.

I am trying to think of a way to get over to the boat while H is at work and sneak over there not to alert his brother.  Get my son back and tell H's brother he has no legal right to stop me from getting my child and have the police's number pulled up and tell him I will call the cops on him if he tries to stop me.  Hopefully the door won't be locked.  I am hoping his dumbass brother doesn't think to lock the door because he has to go outside to smoke.

[Cat Familiar]

This sounds really dangerous and it could work against you at your court date.

[GaGrl]

This sounds really dangerous and it could work against you at your court date.

I agree. This is far too close to "unlawful entry." You have to walk into your court appearance having a clean record and clean conscience.

 You say your H has a court appearance on the assault on 10/30. Do you know who is prosecuting that case? Are you being called to testify? Can you get in touch with the prosecutor and talk with them about safety concerns with S4?

[Frankee]

I was able to get somewhere on the legal position with representation for custody/divorce.  I am going to be contacting the lawyers today.

I do need to stick to showing that I am fearful of him.. which actually isn't a lie.  He sent one message saying.. what are you going to do when they drop the charges?  What are you going to do when they don't give you the protective order?  What will be your excuse then?  You should be a proud mother.  I didn't respond, I just sent it all to the DA.

Watching his temperament change from what it was in the beginning has gone in reverse.  They haven't called me in to testify for the charges yet.  I'm scared, but my story isn't going to change.  I spoke the truth.  I am going to bring up my safety concerns to the protective order hearing.  I'm going to have the lawyer present his horrid behavior increase since he has had S4. 

[ForeverDad]

I had assumed he returned your preschooler at some point.  Sorry.  Right now, lacking a court order stating otherwise, you both probably have equal but undefined rights to the child.  We're not lawyers here but that's my understanding from my personal experience and my years here in peer support.

The problem with going to retrieve your son from his property or property he has some level of control is that it could create an "incident".  Police might get involved, and who knows what else thereafter and when you finally get to court.  I believe that's what concerned Cat Familiar and GaGrl in their cautions.

Evidently he leaves your son with others when he goes wherever?  While you as a parent do have more rights to your son than others, whether his siblings or his parents, things can get complicated.

I know from experience that police were reluctant to get involved when I didn't have a court order to reference.

My story was that I had two temp orders, one for the separation and her emergency filing and another for the divorce.  After the first was dismissed I didn't see my son for over 3 months.  She wouldn't even allow my calls to go through.  (And I was paying for our phones.)

My story, I didn't know it would be 3 months away from my son.  There were days I wanted to go knock on her door anyway.  Fortunately I didn't, police refused to enable a peace visit but did admit they'd come rushing if she called them.  That scared me, I didn't want to risk arrest or jail so somehow I kept my distance until the court issued another temp order.

You have a few options.  You can ask the police to do a welfare check on your child.  Or if he leaves the child at a daycare or sitter, you can bring police with you and your paperwork including child's birth certificate and likely you'll get your child the less unsafe way preferred by the authorities.

[Frankee]

you both probably have equal but undefined rights to the child. 

The problem with going to retrieve your son from his property or property he has some level of control is that it could create an "incident". 

Evidently he leaves your son with others when he goes wherever? 

I know from experience that police were reluctant to get involved when I didn't have a court order to reference.

You have a few options.  You can ask the police to do a welfare check on your child.

In the eyes of the courts and laws, right now.. we both have equal rights.  great..

I'm probably not going to go physically remove him.  They may turn out bad and it may give him the grounds to try to argue me being unstable.

His brother was released from jail and I know he is having him watch S4 while he's a work and wherever.. he has his free babysitter back at the snap of his fingers.

I am scared to call in a welfare check.  I don't think there is going to be enough evidence to do anything and it's just going to piss him off and then CPS will be involved.  He probably has considered the fact I would call for a welfare check and taken precautions.  The police aren't helpful.  It's a civil matter and it's been made clear they aren't going to do anything unless it specifically states they can get involved.

H is trying to guilt me into letting S9 stay the night.  I don't think so.  He has lost his mind.  I know his game.  He is going to spend the entire time, filling his head with so much bs and garbage and talk smack about me.  Keeps talking about having S9 come home, let him live there to go back to his school, let him sleep in his own bed.  H is trying to hard to hold tightly on proving that S9's home is there with him and S4.

One of the hugest obstacles I am having to deal with, is filtering out who needs to know what at the proper time.  H sent me a message about saying S4 is back in school but how the school thinks it is unhealthy for him to go back and forth, so S4 is doing online.. meaning H told the school some boldface lie about what is going on with me.  So.  Trying to hold my stuff together and let the protective order speak for itself.

I talked with S4's play therapist H set up for him.  I felt I did really well keeping the topic about the boys and S4's personality and milestones.  I know that H is going to bring up things to the therapist, placing blame on me for this and that and trying to paint me to be a bad mom.  I was the better person and didn't do that, just stated facts.

Some days I feel like I am going to completely fall apart.  When people ask.. why didn't you just leave... why did you go back.. what I am having to deal with right now, is almost as hard to deal with as being with him.. but at least I am free.

[Cat Familiar]

People who ask why didn’t you leave, have never had an experience with an abuser. Those of us who have, understand.

It’s a pain to navigate the legal system, but at some point, you’ll be done and you won’t have to worry about so much, as you are now.

[ForeverDad]

In most cases, a stepfather does not have rights to the stepchildren.  I think exceptions have been made somewhere, sometime.  With ex's issues, I doubt that any court would support him being granted time with S9.  So don't go down that path, it would make your case more complicated.  Of course, I don't know your state's laws.  This is where you listen to experienced local legal advice.

Have you asked for S4 back?  More than once?  Documented?  You don't want to tell the court you were waiting for ex to return him and ex claim you never asked for son's return.

[formflier]

How long until you can talk to your L?

I would ask L about calling for welfare check.  I'm a fan of doing it, especially when you think your pwBPD is at work.  Have police document who is caring for him.

I would encourage you to have his birth certificate with you at all times and it may be worthwhile to look into getting a photo id for S4 (thinking ahead)

Ask your L what happens if you show up at a baby sitters with your birth certificate and demand your child.

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

In most cases, a stepfather does not have rights to the stepchildren.  I think exceptions have been made somewhere, sometime.  With ex's issues, I doubt that any court would support him being granted time with S9.

Have you asked for S4 back?  More than once?  Documented?  You don't want to tell the court you were waiting for ex to return him and ex claim you never asked for son's return.

H is trying to use the leverage that he is the only father that S9 has known.  While that it a valid argument, he also has no legal holding over S9.  I also look from it from the outside.  Even I would question.. your ex took S4 against your wishes and then you turned around and just allowed him to see S9.. that doesn't look good any way you put it.

I ask for S4 regularly.  Even attempted yesterday to get H to return S4.  I pretty much know at this point it is futile attempt, but I'm going to keep trying.

He is trying extremely hard to use the kids to guilt the every living cr@p out of me.  So much that it isn't even funny.  He's a hypocrite.  He's trying very hard to let me see S9, but flat out refusing to let me see S4.  Keeps claiming that he doesn't feel safe around me because I called the cops on him.  I know what it is.  He knows that S4 will be thrilled to see me and want to go with me and he doesn't want to deal with that guilt and scared that I will cause a scene to get S4 back.. he's not completely wrong, but I would never tell him that.

[formflier]

OK...and you can prove that you ask for S4 regularly?  Right?  I am assuming this is via text.


When do you get to talk to an L?

When is your court date for the PO?  Seems like early Nov...if I remember right?

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

I think he's playing a "get back at you" game and if you're documenting all communication,  it should clearly highlight his abusive tactics.

Do you have to be present at the hearing tomorrow? Very likely the da will be there. If she doesn't know already, you may be able to speak with her tomorrow and tell her what he's doing with s4 and how he's continuing to harass and emotionally abuse you...because that's what he is doing.

[formflier]

Hearing tomorrow?

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

  I just remembered that H has a court hearing on the 30th for the assault case.

This may be an opportunity to voice your concerns to the DA about S4.

[formflier]

This may be an opportunity to voice your concerns to the DA about S4.

Absolutely! 

I would recommend doing whatever is needed so you are there personally and able to speak in person to the DA and that you are ready to testify about the assault and the status of S4...and able to show text messages surrounding this issue.

 

Best,

FF

[Frankee]

I'm seriously on edge today.  The prosecutor for the assault case and the attorney for my protective order called within 30 mins of each other.   The prosecutor was talking about jail time and probation.

I am scared.  I am scared the protective order will be dismissed due to technicalities on the county of residence.   I'm scared that because I didn't know what I was doing in the beginning that there are going to be holes in my story.  She asked me why I didn't work something out with him like I did the times before. 

There isn't a simple answer to all the questions.   The attorney for my protective order did mention that she think his personality and attitude is going to upset the judge.  H has been blowing up her phone because he doesn't have an attorney and she sounded extremely annoyed with him.

It's a huge mess.  All the past has just exploded all over thebplace and I am feeling shell shocked.

[formflier]

Was there a hearing on the 30th (or recently)?  What happened?  Did you go?

I would say that you "finally" realized he wasn't going to change and that your body and mind could not take any more damage.  Emphasize that you regret not taking such a stand earlier.

When are the next steps...next hearings?

When you say "attorney for protective order" is that also a divorce attorney?  Is that "your" attorney or someone employed by the state?  How did you get this attorney?

Hang in there..."perfection" is not required.  I'm sure courts are used to seeing people "realize" things at different times.


   

Stay strong!  I think you are getting close to the finish line!

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So...both of these prosecutors/attorney's know he took S4..right?

And one of them he apparently calls at the time..is that the prosecutor? 

Has he advised him to return S4?  Can you ask her to do that?

What do they say to you about how the court system will "see" him taking S4 the way he did?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

She asked me why I didn't work something out with him like I did the times before.

This is a solid answer:

I would say that you "finally" realized he wasn't going to change and that your body and mind could not take any more damage.  Emphasize that you regret not taking such a stand earlier.

Hang in there..."perfection" is not required.  I'm sure courts are used to seeing people "realize" things at different times.

[I Am Redeemed]

I had to deal with those questions, too. Why is this time different? Why do you want a protection order now when you have left and gone back before?

I even had the court clerk tell me that I didn't need a protective order because he was in jail. I told her CPS was making me get one (which was true) and she rolled her eyes.

Part of why you returned was due to scarce financial resources and insurance purposes. Once you did, he hurt you severely and caused a serious physical injury to you. This time when you left, you have more resources in supporting yourself and the boys. It was the same with me. I finally got the support I needed to get out and stay out of the relationship. Many people don't realize how big of a deal that is in enabling an abuse victim to stay free, or how hard it is to find those resources. It isn't as easy as fleeing to a shelter and everything falling into place.

You can't afford any more serious injuries to yourself, and that alone should be enough of an answer.

What kind of "holes" are you worried about?

I know how it feels to be defensive about your reasons for staying, for leaving and returning, and for seeking protection after several incidents and years of abuse. It may just be that the attorney is asking these questions to gauge whether you are serious about needing protection or if you will get the protective order and then go right back to living with him again (which happens, more often than people think. I once knew of a couple who still lived together despite a protective order and anytime the woman got mad at the guy she would call the police to have him arrested for violating the order. This clogs up court systems which I think they likely want to avoid, especially considering covid).

Hold to your truth and speak your truth.

Is there another hearing? I take it he has not been sentenced. If he does get jail time, he will definitely not be able to keep S4.

[GaGrl]

Now, before the court appearance (I think you said November 5th), is the time to anticipate these questions, construct good solid answers, and then practice those answers until they come out of your mouth smoothly and with confidence. You may need to literally stand in front of a mirror and pracyice.

What other questions or challenges do you anticipate might come up?

[Cat Familiar]

He’s already showing himself to the attorneys even before the court date.

You’ve gotten some good advice on how to respond to the question of why you stayed.

People in the legal system understand that women in abusive relationships return to their abusers for a variety of reasons: financial, because he is their kid’s father, believing in promises that he will change, etc.

They do want to know if you are certain that you are done this time. And with all the changes you’ve made in your life and your understanding of who he is, you can clearly demonstrate that you are making a better life for yourself and your sons.

[ForeverDad]

Previously you were a revolving door litigant.  No slight intended, of course.  You would seek help and then go back to the relationship.  They won't be very inclined to go out of their way to help someone cycling in that pattern.

But now you're done, WELL DONE.  You know you can't ever go back, retreating into past doomed patterns.  So don't let their questions shake you, you just have to be absolutely determined that you can't and won't go back.  In time they'll recognize that and support you better.

[Cat Familiar]

And to add to ForeverDad’s good advice, you tried very hard to give your husband a second, and third chance, for the sake of your children.

You held out hope that he’d change, but he didn’t. You tried your best to make it work, but now you acknowledge the reality that he was, and is, an abuser, and you and your children deserve to live without fear in a healthier environment.

[Frankee]

Was there a hearing on the 30th (or recently)?  What happened?  Did you go?

I would say that you "finally" realized he wasn't going to change and that your body and mind could not take any more damage.  Emphasize that you regret not taking such a stand earlier.

When you say "attorney for protective order" is that also a divorce attorney?  Is that "your" attorney or someone employed by the state?  How did you get this attorney?

Stay strong!  I think you are getting close to the finish line!

I didn't have to go to the hearing on the 30th.  I guess they had enough evidence ithout me being there.  The prosecutor said they offered him 90 days in county jail or 12 months probation.  the probation includes no contact among many other things.  The protective order is just the order saying he has to stay away.  I am still trying to get legal help for the divorce/custody.  When I filed the protective order, I was assigned an attorney from the county.  I am pretty confident she's going to get it for me.

Thank you for the encouraging words.  I really need them at this time.

So...both of these prosecutors/attorney's know he took S4..right?

And one of them he apparently calls at the time..is that the prosecutor? 

Has he advised him to return S4?  Can you ask her to do that?

What do they say to you about how the court system will "see" him taking S4 the way he did?

Everyone knows he took S4.  I basically broke down and cried to the prosecutor and PO attorney when I talked about it.  Everyone keeps telling me that he equals right to S4 as I do because there isn't any court orders.  I am honestly hoping that something will be said about it today in the hearing, but this isn't a custory hearing.  It's insane.  He literally said that he isn't doing anything wrong.

I've been trying to work something out, but we keep going back and forth on what we can agree on.  S4 going to school has been a huge issue.  I say I think he needs Pre-K, H thinks he needs his parents.  I agreed that S4 needs to be with parents, but our job as parents is to also give our children an education and building blocks to succeed in life.

I had to deal with those questions, too. Why is this time different? Why do you want a protection order now when you have left and gone back before?

What kind of "holes" are you worried about?

Is there another hearing? I take it he has not been sentenced. If he does get jail time, he will definitely not be able to keep S4.

In regards to why this time is different, is because you are right.  I have gotten the resources and help I needed in order to not end up having to go back.  My biggest concern is them asking how H was able to pick up S4.  Well, there wasn't a PO in place.  There wasn't any court papers stating that he couldn't pick up S4.  H has tried to paint me as this unstable person who can't provide a good home. 

He also keeps trying to justify the reason he took S4 is because he was protecting his rights as a father.  What if they see all the times I left and refused to let him see S4?  And then turned around and let him see S4. Even I feel I have been all over the place with this.  What if they see I am inconsistent and I go back and forth to working with him, to not working with him.  What if they see me as the parent who is being unreasonable?  Sometimes I think he is right with how the courts will see all of this and see me as the nutty one and give him custody?

Luckily the PO attorney called me and gave me a break down of what to expect.  Her words.. lay low and let me handle this.  She told me to only answer yes or no and do not be like.. oh, hey.. I need to say something.

Previously you were a revolving door litigant.  No slight intended, of course.  You would seek help and then go back to the relationship.  They won't be very inclined to go out of their way to help someone cycling in that pattern.

But now you're done, WELL DONE.  You know you can't ever go back, retreating into past doomed patterns. 

I really feel confident about where I stand, even though some days I feel everything is falling apart.  I know that this time is last without a doubt in my head.  I'm scared about the protective order.  I don't know what it means aoubt getting S4 back.

[formflier]

So which option did he take or was he given (30 days or 12 months)...was something "imposed" on him?  Does he have another hearing over this?

Is there a hearing today?  Is that about the PO?

I'm not quite following the different timelines and issues?

So...the "county attorney" that is helping with the PO...will that one help with the divorce/custody/support as well?

If I count right..there are three different legal issues going on..right? (assault prosecution, PO, divorce/support) Do you have lawyers and a timeline for all of them?

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

Luckily the PO attorney called me and gave me a break down of what to expect.  Her words.. lay low and let me handle this.  She told me to only answer yes or no and do not be like.. oh, hey.. I need to say something.

My attorney told me his first and most important task was to sit on his clients and stop them from talking.   He said he didn't want his clients to possibly sabotage themselves.

When asked a Yes or No question, pause and look at your lawyer in case he will make an objection, then answer Yes or No and STOP.

When you do have to answer with more details, then do so with a minimum of words.  If more is needed then your lawyer should be the one to redirect you into appropriate details in cross examination.

[Cat Familiar]

My attorney told me his first and most important task was to sit on his clients and stop them from talking.   He said he didn't want his clients to possibly sabotage themselves.

When asked a Yes or No question, pause and look at your lawyer in case he will make an objection, then answer Yes or No and STOP.

When you do have to answer with more details, then do so with a minimum of words.  If more is needed then your lawyer should be the one to redirect you into appropriate details in cross examination.

Totally agree with Forever Dad on this.

Having been through legal issues and depositions, my experience inclines me to advise you to say as little as possible. Do not go into explanations or try to be "helpful" or friendly.

If you want to buy yourself time, ask for them to repeat the question. (Everyone knows it's stressful for people not familiar with court processes.) Or if you don't understand what is being asked, ask for them to say it in a different way.

A trick lawyers will use is to be friendly, charming, and casual, and hope that you'll say more than you need to. Don't fall for it. Yes or no is perfectly adequate.