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Hey all you magnificent supporters…

I just got back from breakfast with my lady friend… And I’m a bit perplexed.

So, I didn’t bring up anything dramatic, but neither did she… We were very chatty about our lives, and about our work circumstances, etc.… But really, zero about anything personal.

It was a bit passive, and very guarded, really.

I was kind of hoping that she would begin asking me questions about things relevant, but she didn’t. She kind of gave me an opening, at one point, about a third of the way through, when she said, “So… How are you doing?“ That was really meant to ask me how I was doing on a personal level. I kind of deflected the deep stuff and just said I was doing OK and trying hard to remain focused on the things that I have to do… That kind of stuff.  

I wish I felt like I could’ve said to her that I missed her and that I’ve been really struggling over the last week. I wonder if that may have opened up a few doors.

I returned the same question, and asked how she was dozing... and she pretty much answered in kind… Just more chitchat.  Nothing personal, nothing revealing.

If she had anything major to drop on me, she didn’t do it this time around.  I almost sensed that she wanted to talk about stuff, and I’m sure she probably did, but I tried to keep it casual and as much focused on her as I could.

It’s possible she didn’t have the nerve to tell me that she was losing interest in me romantically, and just didn’t have the heart to open up that subject. I didn’t get that sense, but it’s extremely possible. The fact that we didn’t really make any subsequent plans, and we left with kind of a friendly but non-romantic hug, where she deliberately turned her cheek to indicate friendliness but not romantic… That kind of tells me that she’s off and not thinking about it as much right now, but how do I really know.

I really don’t know what to make of it. It almost left me feeling more confused than not. It’s almost like I want to call her and say, “so, where do you think we are at at this point…“.

If I had to read between the lines, I would probably predict that she basically hit bottom a couple of weeks ago, and I was part of that casualty. Part of me thinks that she just doesn’t wanna deal with having a boyfriend right now, and she has shut her self off, with almost what feels like a wall there. Who knows, she may have thought the same thing about me. I was pretty guarded, although I was trying to be easy.

I think I know what I would probably need to do next… provided I try to move forward.  And that’s to likely contact her at some point, maybe tomorrow, and ask her if she wants to get together with my daughter and I to go do something on Sunday.  She is on call, so she will probably make excuses as to why she can’t go places, but I may consider asking if she wants to go somewhere.

Or, I could wait and see if she reaches out to me in the not too distant future.

We certainly didn’t leave each other like we often do after these conversations, which is with a greater understanding of what we want from each other and where we may be going. That seemed universal after these break ups. This time, it almost felt like she was just OK saying “bye… Talk to you later… Have a nice day.” Usually there’s a breakthrough and we have an understanding at the end of one of these reconciliations. This time not.  That’s a bit odd for us, really.

It’s almost as if she was trying to give me the impression that she cares about me, but she’s not invested in it anymore. I think that hurts a bit. There’s part of me that thinks that her and I are going to have to hash this out If there’s any chance of bringing back some warmth into it.

What do you guys think? I’m a little bit heartbroken by the get together, but who knows, maybe there are some hidden positives. I think she probably would have expected me to get into The deeper stuff, and maybe she left similarly confused? I don’t know. That seems to be my usual state. I don’t know.  

I feel almost like self-medicating now… And being self-destructive, which I know it’s not helpful.

Whenever you want to "read between the lines"...find something else to do.

Dude...I think this is a MASSIVE victory for you.  I am SO PLEASED at how this went.

I'm also mindful of how ODD this feels for you.  I'm purposefully being vague and open about your feelings because I would like for you to sit with this for a while and share your thoughts...share your feelings.

Those may be different or may not...

We've got you...

Best,

FF

Thank you FF. I am thankful for your optimism… :-)

In high school, One of my good friends wrote FF on a map up on the board to indicate potato country… or french fries… The teacher, a smart alec fellow, said that he thought that it meant “PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)ing flax”… at which point the classroom burst into laughter… :-).  Strange to think that the only thing I remember from that class is his audacity to use a curse word in front of a bunch of unruly 16-year-olds… :-). Unheard of back in those days.

Do you feel this is a victory? I’d be interested in hearing how so… She doesn’t hate me, or didn’t seem to be mad at me… So I guess those are victories?

But yes, I will try to keep busy today and know that I did the best that I could and put my best foot forward, whatever that meant to her or me.

Relationships for people with trauma, or borderline, or whatever we want to call it, are so hard. I think we project things onto each other. She is very angry, and often hostile, and it triggers my dysregulated responses. But she’s a human being, and she’s a very giving one in so many ways. I looked at her across the table and I saw what I loved in her. Who knows whether she thought the same things, but I know it was in there a little bit.  We were friends, first and foremost, sitting at that table today.

One thing that your message did make me think about is my own codependency.  My confusion right now is not really as much about this lady, but it’s about my own turmoil and inability to be OK in the moment with myself, regardless of relationship status. There’s a little bit of abandonment, well a lot of abandonment fear at play here… I think I project a lot of my negative energy and thoughts toward her, and I can’t really speak for her own accountability for some of these things, because I think she projects a lot of it onto me, as well.

So, I guess the ball is somewhat in my court… Don’t you think?

FF is right about needing to deposit in the "fun" account.

i understand the confusion. she was probably confused too.

dont think of it as trying to get her back. think of it as the process of beginning a brand new relationship. its an uncomfortable process, but its a big picture thing.

i would follow up.

Two reasons I think it is a victory.

1.  You "did" something that was emotionally very very uncomfortable for you.  All of the urges inside you were "pushing" you to "have this talk" or "clarify the relationship" or...(you get the picture).  Yet you were able to set that aside and try something different and "out of character" for you.

Please don't take any of this as saying you were "wrong" before or "bad"...it simply wasn't working for this particular relationship at this particular time.  So you adjusted.

Solid work!


2.  You demonstrated "chill" and from your story..it appears she noticed AND FOLLOWED YOUR LEAD

Focus on that...she followed your lead.

When time came around where you could "go there"...you keep things light, fun and enjoyable.

Last:  I like the way Once Removed described this as a "new relationship".  Does that help you plan your next outing or two?

Best,

FF

Thank you guys… All immensely helpful.

So… I should make more deposits in the fun bank… :-) I like that one.

I have to say, that’s usually my role, anyway. That’s pretty much what I always propose.  So, if I am to ask her out, as if this is a brand new relationship, which I completely get, I won’t be doing anything that I typically didn't do all the time, anyway.

Almost each and every time we rekindled our relationship, even back then, it was like a new relationship was starting. It felt new. It felt like we had evolved. It felt different this time around.  Why am I to think that it will be any different this time around?

I don’t know if in the study of borderlines, but in the study of narcissism… It is said that it is typical that narcissists, maybe even borderlines, get bored after a predictable amount of time in a relationship. That’s just the way their brains work and their trauma responses unfold.

What if?… What if?…

Speaking of deposits… in many ways, it almost feels like I’ve been deposited in the friend zone. So… I will reach out for the next get together, I suppose.

How long would you wait, if this was you in this scenario, before you reached out to her again? Should I give it a bit of breathing space?

Typically, under these circumstances, I would probably be texting her to say hi on the same day, or maybe to say good night. I suspect that may be a bit too soon?

i wouldnt go more than two days, tops, but thats me. interested to see what others think.

I purposefully stayed silent on this...but 2-3 was going to be my number. 

Try this on for size.

Give it two days then pick two events/things in the future.  A neutral text of "hey..interested in x on y date...or doing a on b date seems interesting?"

Then wait.  Notice...you aren't pushy...but you aren't actually asking the question "do you want to meet again?"  Asking if there is a preference.  Let her fill in details.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

So… You guys aren’t thinking I should try to just get back to normal relatively quickly… By calling her at the usual time tonight or maybe in the morning, or checking in and asking how her day is going, like I’ve done for the past almost 2 years?

What is my/(our… honorary) goal for being elusive and not showing that I won’t cower to difficult times?  Would reaching out to her, almost in a normal way, perhaps kickstart normalcy?

Just thinking out loud.

i wouldnt.

shes, admittedly, a bit hard to read right now. if she is having any thoughts that shes done, i think youd risk rejection doing that sort of thing right off the bat. not doing anything will catch her off guard, and make her rethink it. if shes not done, zero harm done. or better still, she reaches out to you, in which case youre in the drivers seat.

if you feel especially strongly that you ought to do something, id go with something like sending her something that made you think of her, that kind of thing.

Thank you… Good thoughts.

Well, my biggest concern about waiting for a few days is that she is very impatient. She expects the man to chase. If I show her that I am not eager to chase, which is pretty much what I did last week, who knows if it’s going to have negative consequences…

Her brain could start concocting all kinds of things… And not all of them positive… “Maybe he really doesn’t care for me, because we had a nice breakfast out and I haven’t heard from him since…“ “He must be just playing me.”

that doesnt necessarily, ultimately, work out badly for you.

you dont want to act just because she might think those things, or because you think she might think those things.

Well, she has split, accused me of things, and broken up with me more times than I can count for stupid stuff that is concocted in her head like that.  I should refrain from being mean like that, but she was freaked out about my ex-wife for so long, and insisted that she knew that I was not over my ex-wife and hadn’t processed my divorce in the six years since it happened… Despite me saying over and over again that I felt perfectly fine with my ex-wife, and that we were still friends, but I had zero interest in my ex-wife romantically… She couldn’t stop obsessing about it, and at least five splits were almost directly related to that.

So, I don’t want to devalue her feelings on stuff like this by saying that she is easily emotionally dysregulated, but….    If she’s already on the fence, and I treat her in a way that she thinks is poorly, she could back away even more, possibly.

sure. all understood.

my point is 1. you cant have a relationship that is ruled by that sort of thing. 2. you dont want to act on anxiety.

im not saying "contact her under no circumstances". i am saying it almost certainly works to your benefit to wait until at least tomorrow. let her think what she wants; i think most women, and, for that matter, guys like me, would be all over the map about it, wondering, anticipating, and your loved one may do a more extreme and very black and white version of that, but psychologically speaking, its just the law of attraction and human nature, and if she hates you for an hour or a day for not following up, she will feel dumb for it when you do, and even happier to hear from you.

but when to contact her and how is your choice, you know her better, and your concerns are all valid. i would suggest that whatever you do, make sure that it comes from a place of confidence.

Yep...and yet the "facts" are that you just had a get together with you that appeared to go really well.

Might be a bit uncomfortable...but sit with that for a bit.  If she really...REALLY has broken up with you all those times, what just happened?

Hint:  While sitting with this...be deliberate about looking at different "angles" or reasons.

Can you read once removed's post again?  When you read "relationship ruled by that kind of thing", can you reflect this back to us in your words?

Best,

FF

 
What is the impact of "having a relationship ruled by that"?

Best,

FF

Well, first thought is, when we try to live with someone, or reengage someone, that is likely BPD, it almost seems that we have to expect the unexpected.  I would think for people like me, living with anxiety comes part and parcel.

Part of me isn’t really sure if I think it went THAT well.  I know she doesn’t hate me, and that’s good. I felt more like the friend zone kid, rather than a potential suitor. It feels like more of the same, but with a less hopeful outcome than previous attempted reconciliations.   I don’t really feel warm and fuzzy, and I'm even feeling a little negative about it.

I think I’m hearing you say that because this is following a different trajectory than our last reconciliations, that there may be some glimmer of hope that my actions might bring forth a different outcome, am I reading you correctly?

I’m not entirely sure I am following what you mean by looking at different angles… You mean by comparing what might happen if I reach out earlier rather than let it breathe for a while?

So..(for the next few minutes), I want you to STOP thinking about her and the relationship.  Think about you and anxiety.  

"Expect the unexpected"...yes...I get that and don't disagree.  Over time you will come to realize that "oh..that's actually what I expect to happen"  (read this a few times)

It's OK that right now you look at things and are like "do what?"  Later on you will be like..."wow..just like once removed said would happen" and then eventually you will begin to see "that" as normal.

Then "that" usually becomes much less of a big deal

Think about a bad rainstorm.   Should you "have anxiety" about it?  Should you "properly prepare" for it?  Should you "be happy" about it?  

It is possible to be like "oh jeeez...this is going to suck", yet have low anxiety...because you know how it will play out.

Yes..you should have a raincoat AND an umbrella AND other things to handle the rainstorm.

Then the weather changes suddenly and you are unprepared.  That will suck, but you know you have towels and hot shower at home and tomorrow will be a new day. (even if you thought it would be a good day and left raincoat and umbrella at home)

What am I "saying" to you in this post?  (couple sentences)

Best,

FF

Thanks guys… I am trying to absorb everything you are saying.

I don’t know if I said this before, but I think I’m on the borderline spectrum myself. Add the anxiety, and I am often so triggered by little things…

I’m getting tired of the anxiety and the unknowns. Not really sure how motivated I feel going down this road with this lady, once again.  Whether I’m with her, or not with her, my head keeps going back-and-forth between thinking she is so screwed up, which she likely is, or she is awesome, and I realize that those things aren’t mutually exclusive.

As I read somewhere along time ago, a few days or a week, or even a month, is not necessarily a make or break with any particular partner, if you look at the big picture. If this is true, I should not be sweating it out that she didn’t call me on her way home from work last night like she has done for the last month, or text me during the day and ask how my day was.

I miss that contact with her. I miss very many things with her, but it’s getting harder to manage the power imbalance.  I do what I need to do, however, but my choices are limited due to where I am in life, so I don’t have a ton of things I can just pick up and do if I feel crappy and want to get out.

I may see if she wants to go out for a pizza with me and my daughter for tomorrow night, but I may not, depending on how positive I feel.  I’m sure if she was free, she would likely go.  I’d offer another walk, but it’s raining on her one day off tomorrow.

I’m still so confused, like I don’t know whether I can trust this girl don’t let my guard down… I do get I need to be prepared. I’ve spent the last year and a half sharpening the skills to be prepared, but I still feel like I’ve had multiple knives through the chest, whenever she splits I turn black.

The upside, I didn’t get any nasty break up letters this time, so whether or not we are truly broken up is vague, at least from her perspective.  One of you guys on here suggested that this is a break up… Because actions are sometimes clearer than words. Maybe I am clinging to declarations here, and there is no clarity, other than lack there of, which has been the status quo for the longest of times. 

So… I am wary of this battle, and uncertain of whether I have the right umbrella, the right weather forecast, or the right rain gear, to weather this storm.  This is not a place of confidence, for sure.

 Still, I miss my friend and lover. But that’s an invasive part of her that seems to be absent right now, and I am not sure I can continue having her come and go like this. That’s not confidence, either.

I have another thought… Don’t know if I vented this before…

She goes out for karaoke whenever she can. The week that this was all starting to unravel, she was at karaoke and said she sang a duet with this guy that I know is single.

It may be a longshot, and I know that she said that before she met me, she had no interest in dating, and thought she would likely be single for the rest of her life, and that it would suit her just fine… But I’m wondering if she is picking up her narcissistic supply from somebody else. Maybe the same guy that she sang with.

It’s entirely possible that she went to breakfast with me yesterday to either break up with me, or tell me she wants to date someone else. That would explain why she has completely dried up, and has not reached out to me like she normally would since about that time.

I’m not thinking this is too likely, and it’s more likely my anxiety at work thinking about this, but it would certainly explain a lot. If things were complicated with me, and her brain was splitting back-and-forth, Maybe she’s getting her constant fix from somebody else.

See what I mean? I just can’t keep my head on straight.

i recognize a lot of this thinking in myself.

anxiety, like depression, makes everything much harder.

have you considered a meds evaluation for anxiety? alternatively, there are a lot of natural supplements that can help.

Yes, my therapist can’t understand why I am resistant to anti-anxiety or anti-depression medication.

One of my friends was on medication and said it was the worst experience he had ever had. I’ve heard lots of people say that, although my therapist says there are tons of positive stories, as well.

I tend to find value in getting myself through these times without artificial stimulants… so I am hesitant to go there.  However, on the other hand, when I feel like I do now, I find it hard to get motivated to do just about anything except mope around.

i know that feeling well.

when im anxious (usually in relation to a girl) in the event that i can push myself to do things, its just going through the motions, and its exhausting. and the tendency for my mind to go in lots of directions really beats me down.

ive gone both the medication as well as the supplement route before. if youre hesitant to try medication (and i can understand why) there are a number of supplements that can help quickly, and significantly.

Are you permitted to elaborate on which supplements have been affective for you? I’m probably under nourished, as well….

Plus,

Technical question:

If I want to use an excerpt from someone on here… And I press the excerpt link, do I have to cut the part I want to use of the excerpt and then paste it below the quote ending, or can I just write my responses in between each part of the excerpt?

im kind of the king of supplements, ive tried nearly everything ive heard of  lol

some of my go tos include:

SAM-E: a natural mood stabilizer. it can take two or three days to kick in (in my experience), but its a powerful effect when it does, that really boosts my mood and energy, and makes everything going on in my head seem so much smaller and less significant, which makes it a lot easier to cope and function. alternatives to SAM-E are st johns wort, and 5-HTP. ive had the most luck with SAM-E, but results may vary.

passion flower: i love this stuff for anxiety. while ive found it more effective for anxiety attacks (nips them right in the bud), as opposed to general anxiety, it can be very helpful. you can get it in drops, too, and it will kick in very quickly.

melatonin: is great for sleep, but i found that when i first started taking it, it had a huge calming effect.



inositol: effects the nervous system, and can help with obsessive thoughts. in high doses, it is used to treat OCD.

some others ive had luck with include indian holy basil, and ashwaghanda. similar effect to SAM-E (ashwaghanda will also take a day or two to kick in), and on a more limited basis, but very helpful.

as always, do due research, and especially look for interactions if youre taking any kind of medication. generally, these things are safe, and many of them can be taken in combination.


its generally simplest to limit an excerpt to the specific part of the quote you are responding to (delete everything else). easier for everyone else to follow.

im kind of the king of supplements, ive tried nearly everything ive heard of  lol

some of my go tos include:

SAM-E: a natural mood stabilizer. it can take two or three days to kick in (in my experience), but its a powerful effect when it does, that really boosts my mood and energy, and makes everything going on in my head seem so much smaller and less significant, which makes it a lot easier to cope and function. alternatives to SAM-E are st johns wort, and 5-HTP. ive had the most luck with SAM-E, but results may vary.

passion flower: i love this stuff for anxiety. while ive found it more effective for anxiety attacks (nips them right in the bud), as opposed to general anxiety, it can be very helpful. you can get it in drops, too, and it will kick in very quickly.

melatonin: is great for sleep, but i found that when i first started taking it, it had a huge calming effect.

inositol: effects the nervous system, and can help with obsessive thoughts. in high doses, it is used to treat OCD.

some others ive had luck with include indian holy basil, and ashwaghanda. similar effect to SAM-E (ashwaghanda will also take a day or two to kick in), and on a more limited basis, but very helpful.

as always, do due research, and especially look for interactions if youre taking any kind of medication. generally, these things are safe, and many of them can be taken in combination.


its generally simplest to limit an excerpt to the specific part of the quote you are responding to (delete everything else). easier for everyone else to follow.

Thank you for the excellent Thank you for the excellent Supplement recommendations. I will be looking them up for sure.

At the risk of boring everyone within 3000 miles of this for him… I have another thought.  Oh, boy…

I know this is crystal ball thinking, and I have no way of knowing, which makes this useless to even be thinking about, but let’s just say that she is mad at me for some perceived infraction… And I didn’t bring it up over breakfast, nor did I want to talk about anything… Couldn’t that make her split even worse and make the fact that I was silent be even more problematic?

Just thinking.

No...it won't make it worse.

If she brings up an "infraction".  Listen...make sure you have it all.  Thank her for sharing and let her know you will give it thought.

Don't "solve" or "discuss" it the first time she brings it up.  You are listening and understanding.

See how that "slows things down".  She gets "relief" by bringing it up and then in a few days when you come back to discuss it further, she is much more relaxed and you can pick the time/emotional state to move forward on whatever it was.

Best,

FF

Excellent thoughts, thank you FF.

I am a little concerned that me being AWOL, particularly after having breakfast yesterday, will bring her to the thought that I’m not worth the effort, since I won’t be aggressive enough to pursue her, or even ask her why she blew me off last week… I could easily see her doing that.

That would probably be eased if I texted her maybe either later today or tomorrow, and, maybe… I asked her if she wanted to go out to pizza tomorrow night with my daughter and me.

I don’t know if I have it in me to do that right now… I’m still pretty raw, and I’m still pretty uncertain as to how or whether to proceed.

So if you are thinking about texting in a "day or two"...pic the longer of the times you think are "right"...and maybe reach out.

Best,

FF

Well… If I texted her tomorrow mid day and asked her if she wanted to go out for a pizza with my kid and me, that would have been probably 36 hours after I saw her last… Hopefully not enough time to piss her off even more, but enough time for her to chill a bit. Me too.

I’m a little hesitant to invite her out for pizza, since that is a little more like a “date”, and a little more family oriented, which is going to seem a little more aggressive on my part, I think.

I would almost just as soon ask her to go out for another walk, but it’s supposed to be raining steadily here for the next couple of days, and then she’ll be working again.

Revisit the idea a few posts ago of raising two different things.   That way if one of them doesn't work she can grab the one that works.

"hey..was going to check out the pizza place tonight, if that doesn't fit your schedule I planning on XXX on Tuesday"

Hey...why not skip either of those ideas and invite her to fireworks?

Best,

FF

Love the idea of presenting multiple options, and extra love the idea of going to fireworks, which is on Monday here… But I think there’s a strong likelihood she will be working that night.  If not, there’s a good chance that she may already have planned something with her friends.

Typically, she plans things with her friends, and if she feels like it, she invites me. There’s almost never been mutuality when she makes plans. She makes them for herself, and I am somewhat incidental in that process.  The times that I have had other things I wanted to do have fallen backseat to her intent. If she wants to do it she does it, regardless if I want to do it or not.  Thankfully, that typically only happens about once a week, but now that I think of it, in the last two weeks it was becoming common.  That’s not typically reciprocated. She would probably be not happy if I was making plans with my friends once a week and not giving her any input.

Great ideas… Thank you, and keep them coming… :-)

She has a brand new job that is turning out to be much more stressful than she thought, which I’m sure has contributed to this split.  She is working more than is humanly healthy.

The last time she split was just a few weeks before she started this new job, and although she seem to have a good attitude approaching the job, I can’t imagine that the stress of that change wasn’t weighing down on her, despite how stiff her lip was.

Another thought…

What do you think the negative repercussions might be if I just played hardball with this girl… such as… “You know that I love you… but I need to know whether we are dating or not, because if we’re not, I am going to choose to move on.“

Is this decisively a bad idea? I’m getting impatient.

i think this is something that happens when we fear the uncertain.

no, i think that would be backing her into a corner.

Well…

Happy July 4 everyone… Hope your day is filled with family and friends.

Even having a relatively nice and event free breakfast on Friday morning, one could only have hoped that my disappeared lady friend would’ve sent even a simple text out to say hi, or to say happy Fourth of July this morning when she got up, which would have been hours ago…

I feel completely estranged from this woman, and I have no real knowledge of why.  Two years together, more or less, and this is how she treats someone who has been really good to her? Let’s make no mistake. I’ve been really good to this girl. In almost every imaginable way.

We went from seeing each other 3 to 4 days a week just a few weeks ago, talking or texting multiple times every day, to absolutely zero. It’s just too weird.  It boggles my soul to its core.

She has seemingly, using her words during the last split, flatlined… Just lost interest. How does that happen to someone? I don’t think ever in my life have I loved someone and spent the kind of time and energy with them like we have and then just suddenly went “poof“.  Although, she has said to me repeatedly that when she is done with someone, something just clicks in her head, and she’s done.  But there was no real qualifying reasons for her to be done. Nothing major really happened.  Things had been going relatively well just days earlier.

This wouldn’t really jive with her getting together for breakfast the other day, although there’s no way to know whether that was intended to be her time to let go and say goodbye. Maybe that just never happened. It really feels and looks that way.

If you guys following this story had any guess as to what’s going on in this girl’s head right now, what would you think?

Not a good start to what should be a festive holiday.

shes probably as confused as you are man.

are you gonna reach out to her?

Well, she’s not one that usually drags her feet on almost anything. If she wanted to reach out to me, she would have.

I’m really anxious about it, and it brings a large pit to my stomach to think about reaching out to her, for all the complicated reasons.

I guess it would be a slap in the face to not at least reach out and say happy Fourth of July. She’s very patriotic.

I could do what I had already thought I might… Invite her out with my daughter tonight to have a pizza, or to a marvelous fireworks display tomorrow. I doubt she’ll be able to go tomorrow, which sucks.

Do you think waiting longer is a big disadvantage? Maybe like for a walk mid week? Wait till after the holiday is done?  Too much time away from our breakfast on Friday?

 My latest theory is that she just doesn’t want to be confused and hurt anymore, so she has closed off her brain to those feelings. She just wants to be free of the hurt and confusion. I would have never wanted that for her, and tried so hard for it not to be something that would hurt for her. Maybe too much.

i see no reason to wait any longer.

i particularly like the fireworks idea. even if she cant make it, her response will be something clear to go on, and you can do a followup plan.

How is this for neutrality…:

“Hey there, hope you have a nice day planned for today… I am thinking of taking Callie out to Bertucci’s near you tonight, if you would like to join us. Also, there’s a fantastic fireworks display tomorrow night that is a must see in my hood… I have two chairs, one with your name on it, if you would like.”

Thoughts?

sounds good to me.

Thanks…

Do you think I should refrain from opening it with “how are you doing?“.

I do think I am over thinking it a bit, but you guys are pretty good at knowing what might trigger negative responses, so that’s why I’m asking.

That’s an open ended question that I would be asking if I ask her how she is doing. I do suspect she’ll just answer with “I am fine“ and maybe not even followed up with a “how are you doing?“.  That’s fairly typical of her in times like these.

I wonder if I should just send her out a Fourth of July meme and wait for her to respond first before I asked her to go out.

I tend to stay away from stuff like this, especially when a pwBPD is "coming down" from an event (even a few days or weeks later).

Much better to say..."Hey...what do you think of that crazy storm" or "did you see X on the news" or something like that.

If they start talking and then "go to" an emotional angle..listen and validate.  If they "don't go there"...no big deal you have made light conversation and moved on.

There is an "art form" to "dipping you toe in the emotional water" and seeing what it is like.  Trial and error will help you sort through this.

The problem or a problem with "how are you doing" is it can be invalidating.  Suppose they are sitting around fuming that you never call and never ask about their feelings.

Most normal people would "be happy" that you reached out.  Often a pwBPD will be upset that "their feelings are wrong" and you do actually care.  (how is that for a brain bender?)

Best,

FF

Thank you FF… Always good input for thought.

If I felt like I had a true sack these days, I would probably just pick up the phone and call her today. I don’t know if I have it in me, though.

Do you think I am underachieving by not saying anything personal, and stick solely to offering her the choices to get together, like the first draft a few posts ago? It feels a little detached and without emotion, but maybe that is good… It would be really a yes or no kind of interaction.

Quick question: with past breakups was there a clear "we are breaking up" or were they ambiguous?

Yes, very clear Break ups each and every time… “We are done, I will never be back…” Usually that would appear about three or four days after something went down, or she got pissed about something, real or imagined…

The texts were also very hostile, bringing up every last reason why I don’t love her enough, that she deserves better, and revisiting almost every infraction she believes I ever did that validated her breaking up.  This has been completely consistent with about all 10 or 12 break ups in the two years I’ve roughly known her, except for this one.

My responses had always been encouragement, positive energy, but probably way too much validating of my own behavior and deconstructing of her arguments.

This time around… Zero real validation of any break up. Just non-response to two telephone calls, and the breakfast friend zone on Friday.

That’s why this one seems different in someway… Almost as if she has just given up hope that we can work. Last time around, I think she was just pissed and angry, this time around could be what some people call the final discard, for all I know.

Does that give you any insight?

OK… I sent her out a text… here is where it is at, for your counsel.

Me: sent happy Fourth of July colorful meme… “happy Fourth of July… Hope your day is going well, thus far… at least, no rain… And no work!”

Her: “ Thank you..Happy 4th..no work yet..hopefully wont be called in..”

Me: “ I'll cross my fingers… Seems like you are in good shape so far.”

Her:  “so far”

End


What would you suggest for next? She hasn’t asked me any questions or really attempted to keep the conversation going. Neither did I, though.

Should I pitch pizza tonight or fireworks tomorrow now, or wait a bit and see if this little exchange prompts another response if I drop it for a while?

Ask her out, my dude.

You've got this...I think you have the right idea with "mentioning" that you are doing pizza and fireworks...and there is space for her to come along.

That keeps the pressure down on her.  Keeps her out of the "corner".

"Ambiguity" seems to be working for you (even thought it feels different).  Guess what..it is different.

Stick with that...

A long way of saying "Ditto to what Once Removed just posted!"

Best,

FF

Thank you guys…

I do feel a lot less anxiety… Here’s the update… Not perfect but definitely a step in the right direction…

Me:  I'm expecting to take Callie out for pizza at Bertucci's for dinner tonight, it would be nice if you want to join us… (Provided it's open, and it seems to be)

Also, fantastic fireworks in Groton tomorrow night, best in class… I've got two chairs, and one with your name on it, if you'd like to go

Her:  So tomorrow sounds good I have stuff going on with kids today...

Me:  You're not working tomorrow night ?

see dude? youre fine.

the pizza place might have been a little awkward anyway.

Yes… I did read somewhere that when you are talking seriously with someone with a cluster B disorder, you are better off not sitting face-to-face and eye to eye, because I can make them feel awkward and uncomfortable.  Not sure if she feels that… Maybe I do… :-).

Our texting wasn’t warm and fuzzy… But I guess it’s a restart of sorts.

She is still playing the curt pissed off role.  Wonder what’s up with that?

The conversation of bipolar has come up before. Any thoughts about that possibility?

im not reading her the same way.

she said yes to going to see fireworks. thats a romantic thing.

like ive said, shes probably as confused, and careful as you are. the state of your relationship is ambiguous, and you are taking a very different tack. she isnt sure whats up. but shes following your lead.

Crap… I completely goofed. The fireworks I was talking about are a week from tomorrow, not tomorrow. Crap. Crap. Crap.

Now, I have to reach out and figure out a different plan. One that will probably not have nearly the same kind of outcome, or the same kind of fun.  Likely more anxiety, and more possibility of talking about drama.

Probably another walk. Boring. Maybe I’ll have to try to think of something else for tomorrow night.

its good if she does this.

its good if she asks you. its good if she tells you. its not even necessarily bad if she lays the law down and says "we are not together"! (depending on how you respond to it). youll know where you are, and to clarify, im not predicting that, my point is, if she inquires about the status of the relationship, whatever her attitude, it means shes trying to deal with the anxiety of it, and that, virtually no matter what, plays to your benefit.

given that in all the previous cases, there was a clear, unambiguous breakup, im leaning pretty strongly here on the fact that she is as confused if not more than you are, and shes just feeling her way through things, and youre fine. itd be lovely to lead with the fireworks tomorrow, but having her on the hook for anything, as opposed to uncertainty or a no, is gold.

be bold. be confident. youve got this.

Yeah, unfortunately, the fireworks are next week, so I’m scrambling to come up with something to do.

I may suggest having her grab her grandkid, who my daughter likes to take care of, and find something mutual to do that will not be quite so pressure intensive.

I have a coupon for the pizza place, so that is an option.

We texted a bit back-and-forth last night, and she seems a bit chilled out, which is good. I’m still taking my time to reach out to her today, which may or may not be good.

We will see what we will see, I guess.

what all did you guys say/text last evening?

Aren't there fireworks..somewhere?  I was a bit surprised at the timeline, I assumed fireworks were last night.

Best,

FF

No… No fireworks this week, I blew it and misunderstood the date.

So, we are going back and forth now, and are considering getting her grandkids and my daughter together and may be going out for pizza later.

I suggested a visit to a nice local park, but that may not fly.

She seems to be on board… So I think I am feeling relatively confident that I’m going to just go try to have fun. The restaurant idea isn’t my favorite, but I don’t really have anything else in my back pocket to offer.

I will think out loud here a bit…

I just got off the phone with her to try to shore up plans for later… And I tried to be fun and upbeat, which I usually am anyway…

I ended up telling her that I went into town to see fireworks with my kid last night and I felt somewhat awkward, wondering if she would pick up on the fact that we didn’t invite her… The logistics just weren’t there, and she had originally said she was going to be busy with her kids that day… So by the time I texted with her last night, she had already said she was in for The night… And we were already halfway to where we were going, so it wouldn’t have worked out.

I’m already wondering if she is starting to internalize the fact that we didn’t invite her, even though she had told me by text later that she was at home not doing anything…

The whole conversation went OK, but she seemed a little down, but we both seemed on board about getting together later, probably for pizza with her grandkids, which isn’t the best of things to do, but that may be all we can get around to.

So, should I even bring last nights fireworks opportunity up in conversation, and maybe say… “Hey, we would’ve loved to have you there last night, but by the time I knew you were home and not doing anything we were already pretty much en route.“

Or, should I not even bring it up again and just take the evening as it is and just try to have fun without bringing up any explanations or validation of what we did last night?

There is also the notion of how to manage this relationship moving forward.

It’s almost hard to imagine that this lady isn’t seeing that there’s a pattern to these cycles. It’s pretty much every month and a half that she crashes like this. Of course, she explains it to me as if it is something that I am doing that causes her to fall into these cycles. Do you really think she believes that?

At any point, is it going to be useful or prudent for me to point out that there may be something else going on that could be triggering these cycles… And maybe start talking about the potential for therapy…, or the possibility of the existence of BPD or even bipolar?

I suspect that this is a no go… But how do I proceed moving forward?

dont dwell.


slowly. differently. as it concerns her, lots of deposits in the "fun account".


of course. just like you believe its her.


i cannot imagine how any of this would be useful or prudent.


you determine what is broken about this relationship (the answer is not "her"), whether its fixable, and what its going to take to fix it if it is.

Thank you for the useful input…

I hear what you are saying… But I suspect that without her coming to some sort of epiphany, the same cycles are just going to continue. I’m not sure that there is anything I can do or not do to prevent that from happening.

I do see that I can be better at navigating them when they are happening.  I think I have been definitely getting better at those things, and I hope that is evidenced by the fact that I didn’t get a nasty break up text this time around, although there wasn’t really anything I truly did that deserved one (not that I ever think there was in the past, either…).

I guess I get it. It pretty much has to be up to me how to handle things.  It feels like such an uphill battle. And one that’s going to have negative consequences about every six or eight weeks. As you said previously, I have to understand that this cycle will continue, and learn to understand that this is just who she is. That’s just so hard for my soul, given how much I care for this girl. Or, how much I am trauma bonded or codependent, depending on how you want to look at it.

i know that this is vague, but youre laying a new foundation for the relationship.

there have been lots of makeup/breakup cycles, and they successively damage a relationship each time. you will want to consider how to approach nipping that in the bud.

it might be a good idea to open a new thread discussing in detail all of the past breakups.

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