I just got back from breakfast with my lady friend… And I’m a bit perplexed.

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey all you magnificent supporters…

I just got back from breakfast with my lady friend… And I’m a bit perplexed.

So, I didn’t bring up anything dramatic, but neither did she… We were very chatty about our lives, and about our work circumstances, etc.… But really, zero about anything personal.

It was a bit passive, and very guarded, really.

I was kind of hoping that she would begin asking me questions about things relevant, but she didn’t. She kind of gave me an opening, at one point, about a third of the way through, when she said, “So… How are you doing?“ That was really meant to ask me how I was doing on a personal level. I kind of deflected the deep stuff and just said I was doing OK and trying hard to remain focused on the things that I have to do… That kind of stuff.  

I wish I felt like I could’ve said to her that I missed her and that I’ve been really struggling over the last week. I wonder if that may have opened up a few doors.

I returned the same question, and asked how she was dozing... and she pretty much answered in kind… Just more chitchat.  Nothing personal, nothing revealing.

If she had anything major to drop on me, she didn’t do it this time around.  I almost sensed that she wanted to talk about stuff, and I’m sure she probably did, but I tried to keep it casual and as much focused on her as I could.

It’s possible she didn’t have the nerve to tell me that she was losing interest in me romantically, and just didn’t have the heart to open up that subject. I didn’t get that sense, but it’s extremely possible. The fact that we didn’t really make any subsequent plans, and we left with kind of a friendly but non-romantic hug, where she deliberately turned her cheek to indicate friendliness but not romantic… That kind of tells me that she’s off and not thinking about it as much right now, but how do I really know.

I really don’t know what to make of it. It almost left me feeling more confused than not. It’s almost like I want to call her and say, “so, where do you think we are at at this point…“.

If I had to read between the lines, I would probably predict that she basically hit bottom a couple of weeks ago, and I was part of that casualty. Part of me thinks that she just doesn’t wanna deal with having a boyfriend right now, and she has shut her self off, with almost what feels like a wall there. Who knows, she may have thought the same thing about me. I was pretty guarded, although I was trying to be easy.

I think I know what I would probably need to do next… provided I try to move forward.  And that’s to likely contact her at some point, maybe tomorrow, and ask her if she wants to get together with my daughter and I to go do something on Sunday.  She is on call, so she will probably make excuses as to why she can’t go places, but I may consider asking if she wants to go somewhere.

Or, I could wait and see if she reaches out to me in the not too distant future.

We certainly didn’t leave each other like we often do after these conversations, which is with a greater understanding of what we want from each other and where we may be going. That seemed universal after these break ups. This time, it almost felt like she was just OK saying “bye… Talk to you later… Have a nice day.” Usually there’s a breakthrough and we have an understanding at the end of one of these reconciliations. This time not.  That’s a bit odd for us, really.

It’s almost as if she was trying to give me the impression that she cares about me, but she’s not invested in it anymore. I think that hurts a bit. There’s part of me that thinks that her and I are going to have to hash this out If there’s any chance of bringing back some warmth into it.

What do you guys think? I’m a little bit heartbroken by the get together, but who knows, maybe there are some hidden positives. I think she probably would have expected me to get into The deeper stuff, and maybe she left similarly confused? I don’t know. That seems to be my usual state. I don’t know.  

I feel almost like self-medicating now… And being self-destructive, which I know it’s not helpful.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Whenever you want to "read between the lines"...find something else to do.

Dude...I think this is a MASSIVE victory for you.  I am SO PLEASED at how this went.

I'm also mindful of how ODD this feels for you.  I'm purposefully being vague and open about your feelings because I would like for you to sit with this for a while and share your thoughts...share your feelings.

Those may be different or may not...

We've got you...

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you FF. I am thankful for your optimism… :-)

In high school, One of my good friends wrote FF on a map up on the board to indicate potato country… or french fries… The teacher, a smart alec fellow, said that he thought that it meant “PLEASE READing flax”… at which point the classroom burst into laughter… :-).  Strange to think that the only thing I remember from that class is his audacity to use a curse word in front of a bunch of unruly 16-year-olds… :-). Unheard of back in those days.

Do you feel this is a victory? I’d be interested in hearing how so… She doesn’t hate me, or didn’t seem to be mad at me… So I guess those are victories?

But yes, I will try to keep busy today and know that I did the best that I could and put my best foot forward, whatever that meant to her or me.

Relationships for people with trauma, or borderline, or whatever we want to call it, are so hard. I think we project things onto each other. She is very angry, and often hostile, and it triggers my dysregulated responses. But she’s a human being, and she’s a very giving one in so many ways. I looked at her across the table and I saw what I loved in her. Who knows whether she thought the same things, but I know it was in there a little bit.  We were friends, first and foremost, sitting at that table today.

One thing that your message did make me think about is my own codependency.  My confusion right now is not really as much about this lady, but it’s about my own turmoil and inability to be OK in the moment with myself, regardless of relationship status. There’s a little bit of abandonment, well a lot of abandonment fear at play here… I think I project a lot of my negative energy and thoughts toward her, and I can’t really speak for her own accountability for some of these things, because I think she projects a lot of it onto me, as well.

So, I guess the ball is somewhat in my court… Don’t you think?

[once removed]

FF is right about needing to deposit in the "fun" account.

i understand the confusion. she was probably confused too.

dont think of it as trying to get her back. think of it as the process of beginning a brand new relationship. its an uncomfortable process, but its a big picture thing.

i would follow up.

[formflier]

Two reasons I think it is a victory.

1.  You "did" something that was emotionally very very uncomfortable for you.  All of the urges inside you were "pushing" you to "have this talk" or "clarify the relationship" or...(you get the picture).  Yet you were able to set that aside and try something different and "out of character" for you.

Please don't take any of this as saying you were "wrong" before or "bad"...it simply wasn't working for this particular relationship at this particular time.  So you adjusted.

Solid work!


2.  You demonstrated "chill" and from your story..it appears she noticed AND FOLLOWED YOUR LEAD

Focus on that...she followed your lead.

When time came around where you could "go there"...you keep things light, fun and enjoyable.

Last:  I like the way Once Removed described this as a "new relationship".  Does that help you plan your next outing or two?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you guys… All immensely helpful.

So… I should make more deposits in the fun bank… :-) I like that one.

I have to say, that’s usually my role, anyway. That’s pretty much what I always propose.  So, if I am to ask her out, as if this is a brand new relationship, which I completely get, I won’t be doing anything that I typically didn't do all the time, anyway.

Almost each and every time we rekindled our relationship, even back then, it was like a new relationship was starting. It felt new. It felt like we had evolved. It felt different this time around.  Why am I to think that it will be any different this time around?

I don’t know if in the study of borderlines, but in the study of narcissism… It is said that it is typical that narcissists, maybe even borderlines, get bored after a predictable amount of time in a relationship. That’s just the way their brains work and their trauma responses unfold.

What if?… What if?…

Speaking of deposits… in many ways, it almost feels like I’ve been deposited in the friend zone. So… I will reach out for the next get together, I suppose.

How long would you wait, if this was you in this scenario, before you reached out to her again? Should I give it a bit of breathing space?

Typically, under these circumstances, I would probably be texting her to say hi on the same day, or maybe to say good night. I suspect that may be a bit too soon?

[once removed]

How long would you wait, if this was you in this scenario, before you reached out to her again? Should I give it a bit of breathing space?

i wouldnt go more than two days, tops, but thats me. interested to see what others think.

[formflier]

i wouldnt go more than two days, tops, but thats me. interested to see what others think.

I purposefully stayed silent on this...but 2-3 was going to be my number. 

Try this on for size.

Give it two days then pick two events/things in the future.  A neutral text of "hey..interested in x on y date...or doing a on b date seems interesting?"

Then wait.  Notice...you aren't pushy...but you aren't actually asking the question "do you want to meet again?"  Asking if there is a preference.  Let her fill in details.

You've got this!

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

So… You guys aren’t thinking I should try to just get back to normal relatively quickly… By calling her at the usual time tonight or maybe in the morning, or checking in and asking how her day is going, like I’ve done for the past almost 2 years?

What is my/(our… honorary) goal for being elusive and not showing that I won’t cower to difficult times?  Would reaching out to her, almost in a normal way, perhaps kickstart normalcy?

Just thinking out loud.

[once removed]

So… You guys aren’t thinking I should try to just get back to normal relatively quickly… By calling her at the usual time tonight or maybe in the morning, or checking in and asking how her day is going, like I’ve done for the past almost 2 years?

i wouldnt.

shes, admittedly, a bit hard to read right now. if she is having any thoughts that shes done, i think youd risk rejection doing that sort of thing right off the bat. not doing anything will catch her off guard, and make her rethink it. if shes not done, zero harm done. or better still, she reaches out to you, in which case youre in the drivers seat.

if you feel especially strongly that you ought to do something, id go with something like sending her something that made you think of her, that kind of thing.

[Mr. Kelly]

i wouldnt.

shes, admittedly, a bit hard to read right now. if she is having any thoughts that shes done, i think youd risk rejection doing that sort of thing right off the bat. not doing anything will catch her off guard, and make her rethink it. if shes not done, zero harm done. or better still, she reaches out to you, in which case youre in the drivers seat.

if you feel especially strongly that you ought to do something, id go with something like sending her something that made you think of her, that kind of thing.

Thank you… Good thoughts.

Well, my biggest concern about waiting for a few days is that she is very impatient. She expects the man to chase. If I show her that I am not eager to chase, which is pretty much what I did last week, who knows if it’s going to have negative consequences…

Her brain could start concocting all kinds of things… And not all of them positive… “Maybe he really doesn’t care for me, because we had a nice breakfast out and I haven’t heard from him since…“ “He must be just playing me.”

[once removed]

that doesnt necessarily, ultimately, work out badly for you.

you dont want to act just because she might think those things, or because you think she might think those things.

[Mr. Kelly]

that doesnt necessarily, ultimately, work out badly for you.

you dont want to act just because she might think those things, or because you think she might think those things.

Well, she has split, accused me of things, and broken up with me more times than I can count for stupid stuff that is concocted in her head like that.  I should refrain from being mean like that, but she was freaked out about my ex-wife for so long, and insisted that she knew that I was not over my ex-wife and hadn’t processed my divorce in the six years since it happened… Despite me saying over and over again that I felt perfectly fine with my ex-wife, and that we were still friends, but I had zero interest in my ex-wife romantically… She couldn’t stop obsessing about it, and at least five splits were almost directly related to that.

So, I don’t want to devalue her feelings on stuff like this by saying that she is easily emotionally dysregulated, but….    If she’s already on the fence, and I treat her in a way that she thinks is poorly, she could back away even more, possibly.

[once removed]

sure. all understood.

my point is 1. you cant have a relationship that is ruled by that sort of thing. 2. you dont want to act on anxiety.

im not saying "contact her under no circumstances". i am saying it almost certainly works to your benefit to wait until at least tomorrow. let her think what she wants; i think most women, and, for that matter, guys like me, would be all over the map about it, wondering, anticipating, and your loved one may do a more extreme and very black and white version of that, but psychologically speaking, its just the law of attraction and human nature, and if she hates you for an hour or a day for not following up, she will feel dumb for it when you do, and even happier to hear from you.

but when to contact her and how is your choice, you know her better, and your concerns are all valid. i would suggest that whatever you do, make sure that it comes from a place of confidence.

[formflier]

Well, she has split, accused me of things, and broken up with me more times than I can count for stupid stuff that is concocted in her head like that.

Yep...and yet the "facts" are that you just had a get together with you that appeared to go really well.

Might be a bit uncomfortable...but sit with that for a bit.  If she really...REALLY has broken up with you all those times, what just happened?

Hint:  While sitting with this...be deliberate about looking at different "angles" or reasons.

Can you read once removed's post again?  When you read "relationship ruled by that kind of thing", can you reflect this back to us in your words?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

 
What is the impact of "having a relationship ruled by that"?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Yep...and yet the "facts" are that you just had a get together with you that appeared to go really well.

Might be a bit uncomfortable...but sit with that for a bit.  If she really...REALLY has broken up with you all those times, what just happened?

Hint:  While sitting with this...be deliberate about looking at different "angles" or reasons.

Can you read once removed's post again?  When you read "relationship ruled by that kind of thing", can you reflect this back to us in your words?

Best,

FF

Well, first thought is, when we try to live with someone, or reengage someone, that is likely BPD, it almost seems that we have to expect the unexpected.  I would think for people like me, living with anxiety comes part and parcel.

Part of me isn’t really sure if I think it went THAT well.  I know she doesn’t hate me, and that’s good. I felt more like the friend zone kid, rather than a potential suitor. It feels like more of the same, but with a less hopeful outcome than previous attempted reconciliations.   I don’t really feel warm and fuzzy, and I'm even feeling a little negative about it.

I think I’m hearing you say that because this is following a different trajectory than our last reconciliations, that there may be some glimmer of hope that my actions might bring forth a different outcome, am I reading you correctly?

I’m not entirely sure I am following what you mean by looking at different angles… You mean by comparing what might happen if I reach out earlier rather than let it breathe for a while?

[formflier]

it almost seems that we have to expect the unexpected.  I would think for people like me, living with anxiety comes part and parcel.

 

  this is following a different trajectory than our last reconciliations

  a different outcome

 

So..(for the next few minutes), I want you to STOP thinking about her and the relationship.  Think about you and anxiety.  

"Expect the unexpected"...yes...I get that and don't disagree.  Over time you will come to realize that "oh..that's actually what I expect to happen"  (read this a few times)

It's OK that right now you look at things and are like "do what?"  Later on you will be like..."wow..just like once removed said would happen" and then eventually you will begin to see "that" as normal.

Then "that" usually becomes much less of a big deal

Think about a bad rainstorm.   Should you "have anxiety" about it?  Should you "properly prepare" for it?  Should you "be happy" about it?  

It is possible to be like "oh jeeez...this is going to suck", yet have low anxiety...because you know how it will play out.

Yes..you should have a raincoat AND an umbrella AND other things to handle the rainstorm.

Then the weather changes suddenly and you are unprepared.  That will suck, but you know you have towels and hot shower at home and tomorrow will be a new day. (even if you thought it would be a good day and left raincoat and umbrella at home)

What am I "saying" to you in this post?  (couple sentences)

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thanks guys… I am trying to absorb everything you are saying.

I don’t know if I said this before, but I think I’m on the borderline spectrum myself. Add the anxiety, and I am often so triggered by little things…

I’m getting tired of the anxiety and the unknowns. Not really sure how motivated I feel going down this road with this lady, once again.  Whether I’m with her, or not with her, my head keeps going back-and-forth between thinking she is so screwed up, which she likely is, or she is awesome, and I realize that those things aren’t mutually exclusive.

As I read somewhere along time ago, a few days or a week, or even a month, is not necessarily a make or break with any particular partner, if you look at the big picture. If this is true, I should not be sweating it out that she didn’t call me on her way home from work last night like she has done for the last month, or text me during the day and ask how my day was.

I miss that contact with her. I miss very many things with her, but it’s getting harder to manage the power imbalance.  I do what I need to do, however, but my choices are limited due to where I am in life, so I don’t have a ton of things I can just pick up and do if I feel crappy and want to get out.

I may see if she wants to go out for a pizza with me and my daughter for tomorrow night, but I may not, depending on how positive I feel.  I’m sure if she was free, she would likely go.  I’d offer another walk, but it’s raining on her one day off tomorrow.

I’m still so confused, like I don’t know whether I can trust this girl don’t let my guard down… I do get I need to be prepared. I’ve spent the last year and a half sharpening the skills to be prepared, but I still feel like I’ve had multiple knives through the chest, whenever she splits I turn black.

The upside, I didn’t get any nasty break up letters this time, so whether or not we are truly broken up is vague, at least from her perspective.  One of you guys on here suggested that this is a break up… Because actions are sometimes clearer than words. Maybe I am clinging to declarations here, and there is no clarity, other than lack there of, which has been the status quo for the longest of times. 

So… I am wary of this battle, and uncertain of whether I have the right umbrella, the right weather forecast, or the right rain gear, to weather this storm.  This is not a place of confidence, for sure.

 Still, I miss my friend and lover. But that’s an invasive part of her that seems to be absent right now, and I am not sure I can continue having her come and go like this. That’s not confidence, either.

[Mr. Kelly]

I have another thought… Don’t know if I vented this before…

She goes out for karaoke whenever she can. The week that this was all starting to unravel, she was at karaoke and said she sang a duet with this guy that I know is single.

It may be a longshot, and I know that she said that before she met me, she had no interest in dating, and thought she would likely be single for the rest of her life, and that it would suit her just fine… But I’m wondering if she is picking up her narcissistic supply from somebody else. Maybe the same guy that she sang with.

It’s entirely possible that she went to breakfast with me yesterday to either break up with me, or tell me she wants to date someone else. That would explain why she has completely dried up, and has not reached out to me like she normally would since about that time.

I’m not thinking this is too likely, and it’s more likely my anxiety at work thinking about this, but it would certainly explain a lot. If things were complicated with me, and her brain was splitting back-and-forth, Maybe she’s getting her constant fix from somebody else.

See what I mean? I just can’t keep my head on straight.

[once removed]

i recognize a lot of this thinking in myself.

anxiety, like depression, makes everything much harder.

have you considered a meds evaluation for anxiety? alternatively, there are a lot of natural supplements that can help.

[Mr. Kelly]

Yes, my therapist can’t understand why I am resistant to anti-anxiety or anti-depression medication.

One of my friends was on medication and said it was the worst experience he had ever had. I’ve heard lots of people say that, although my therapist says there are tons of positive stories, as well.

I tend to find value in getting myself through these times without artificial stimulants… so I am hesitant to go there.  However, on the other hand, when I feel like I do now, I find it hard to get motivated to do just about anything except mope around.

[once removed]

However, on the other hand, when I feel like I do now, I find it hard to get motivated to do just about anything except mope around.

i know that feeling well.

when im anxious (usually in relation to a girl) in the event that i can push myself to do things, its just going through the motions, and its exhausting. and the tendency for my mind to go in lots of directions really beats me down.

ive gone both the medication as well as the supplement route before. if youre hesitant to try medication (and i can understand why) there are a number of supplements that can help quickly, and significantly.

[Mr. Kelly]

i know that feeling well.

ive gone both the medication as well as the supplement route before. if youre hesitant to try medication (and i can understand why) there are a number of supplements that can help quickly, and significantly.

Are you permitted to elaborate on which supplements have been affective for you? I’m probably under nourished, as well….

[Mr. Kelly]

Plus,

Technical question:

If I want to use an excerpt from someone on here… And I press the excerpt link, do I have to cut the part I want to use of the excerpt and then paste it below the quote ending, or can I just write my responses in between each part of the excerpt?

[once removed]

im kind of the king of supplements, ive tried nearly everything ive heard of  

some of my go tos include:

SAM-E: a natural mood stabilizer. it can take two or three days to kick in (in my experience), but its a powerful effect when it does, that really boosts my mood and energy, and makes everything going on in my head seem so much smaller and less significant, which makes it a lot easier to cope and function. alternatives to SAM-E are st johns wort, and 5-HTP. ive had the most luck with SAM-E, but results may vary.

passion flower: i love this stuff for anxiety. while ive found it more effective for anxiety attacks (nips them right in the bud), as opposed to general anxiety, it can be very helpful. you can get it in drops, too, and it will kick in very quickly.

melatonin: is great for sleep, but i found that when i first started taking it, it had a huge calming effect.



inositol: effects the nervous system, and can help with obsessive thoughts. in high doses, it is used to treat OCD.

some others ive had luck with include indian holy basil, and ashwaghanda. similar effect to SAM-E (ashwaghanda will also take a day or two to kick in), and on a more limited basis, but very helpful.

as always, do due research, and especially look for interactions if youre taking any kind of medication. generally, these things are safe, and many of them can be taken in combination.

If I want to use an excerpt from someone on here… And I press the excerpt link, do I have to cut the part I want to use of the excerpt and then paste it below the quote ending, or can I just write my responses in between each part of the excerpt?

its generally simplest to limit an excerpt to the specific part of the quote you are responding to (delete everything else). easier for everyone else to follow.

[once removed]

im kind of the king of supplements, ive tried nearly everything ive heard of  

some of my go tos include:

SAM-E: a natural mood stabilizer. it can take two or three days to kick in (in my experience), but its a powerful effect when it does, that really boosts my mood and energy, and makes everything going on in my head seem so much smaller and less significant, which makes it a lot easier to cope and function. alternatives to SAM-E are st johns wort, and 5-HTP. ive had the most luck with SAM-E, but results may vary.

passion flower: i love this stuff for anxiety. while ive found it more effective for anxiety attacks (nips them right in the bud), as opposed to general anxiety, it can be very helpful. you can get it in drops, too, and it will kick in very quickly.

melatonin: is great for sleep, but i found that when i first started taking it, it had a huge calming effect.

inositol: effects the nervous system, and can help with obsessive thoughts. in high doses, it is used to treat OCD.

some others ive had luck with include indian holy basil, and ashwaghanda. similar effect to SAM-E (ashwaghanda will also take a day or two to kick in), and on a more limited basis, but very helpful.

as always, do due research, and especially look for interactions if youre taking any kind of medication. generally, these things are safe, and many of them can be taken in combination.

If I want to use an excerpt from someone on here… And I press the excerpt link, do I have to cut the part I want to use of the excerpt and then paste it below the quote ending, or can I just write my responses in between each part of the excerpt?

its generally simplest to limit an excerpt to the specific part of the quote you are responding to (delete everything else). easier for everyone else to follow.

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you for the excellent Thank you for the excellent Supplement recommendations. I will be looking them up for sure.

At the risk of boring everyone within 3000 miles of this for him… I have another thought.  Oh, boy…

I know this is crystal ball thinking, and I have no way of knowing, which makes this useless to even be thinking about, but let’s just say that she is mad at me for some perceived infraction… And I didn’t bring it up over breakfast, nor did I want to talk about anything… Couldn’t that make her split even worse and make the fact that I was silent be even more problematic?

Just thinking.

[formflier]

I know this is crystal ball thinking, and I have no way of knowing, which makes this useless to even be thinking about, but let’s just say that she is mad at me for some perceived infraction… And I didn’t bring it up over breakfast, nor did I want to talk about anything… Couldn’t that make her split even worse and make the fact that I was silent be even more problematic?

No...it won't make it worse.

If she brings up an "infraction".  Listen...make sure you have it all.  Thank her for sharing and let her know you will give it thought.

Don't "solve" or "discuss" it the first time she brings it up.  You are listening and understanding.

See how that "slows things down".  She gets "relief" by bringing it up and then in a few days when you come back to discuss it further, she is much more relaxed and you can pick the time/emotional state to move forward on whatever it was.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

No...it won't make it worse.

If she brings up an "infraction".  Listen...make sure you have it all.  Thank her for sharing and let her know you will give it thought.

Don't "solve" or "discuss" it the first time she brings it up.  You are listening and understanding.

Excellent thoughts, thank you FF.

I am a little concerned that me being AWOL, particularly after having breakfast yesterday, will bring her to the thought that I’m not worth the effort, since I won’t be aggressive enough to pursue her, or even ask her why she blew me off last week… I could easily see her doing that.

That would probably be eased if I texted her maybe either later today or tomorrow, and, maybe… I asked her if she wanted to go out to pizza tomorrow night with my daughter and me.

I don’t know if I have it in me to do that right now… I’m still pretty raw, and I’m still pretty uncertain as to how or whether to proceed.