BPDFamily.com

So tonight my BPDw decided to have a bizarre conversation.  She's been feeling a little too good about us lately so the push off began in earnest last Saturday night.  We had been having great conversations the past few weeks, chatting on video 3-8 hours a day after the judge clarified that video was allowed under the RO.

We've been making plans for when the no contact is lifted and I think that scared her... but we were having a great night when she said she wanted to talk about something, but didn't want me to freak out.  We had a very rational, non-emotional conversation about "being divorced, without getting a (legal) divorce".  It was very odd, but it was clearly her way of telling me that all the plans we've talked about the past 3 weeks were no longer applicable.  I kept trying to pin her down on if that meant she wanted to change anything about how we've been interacting the past few weeks and then seque that into future, but she kept evading.  There was a weird segue about how I'm co-dependent, never really dated outside of my two wives and should start dating... which is historically either her way of getting me to express my devotion to her or her way of justifying an affair with another man.

After 30-45 minutes of this, she started to get emotional.  I pointed it out and asked if we should stop.  She became calm and said that we should.  I then asked her if there was something I could have done differently that would have avoided her becoming emotional.  This was apparently a trigger, where she went off the ledge into mini-rage mode.  Told me her lawyer was going to sue me to pay for her divorce fees, that he'd contact me this week, that I was too much stress for her, that this was what is wrong in our marriage, that we can't communicate.

Then I very calmly told her that we do not have a problem communicating, that she has problems with anger.  That I was not going to accept her blaming me all the time for her anger problems.  That it was not us, it was her, and that leaving me is not going to change her inability to control herself, it will just move it to someone else.  I had done absolutely nothing to trigger her, we were having very good communication and she got angry for no reason I could understand.  That it was perfectly legitimate for me to ask her if she needed me to do something differently to avoid this in the future and that if she was triggered by that, that was not my having poor communication skills, it was her not being able to control unjustified anger.

Anywho, kindof left all my work learned here and reading books on BPD on the floor for this one.  But the 137th divorce threat was apparently one too many for me to take.

Probably just venting so I can sleep tonight... but thoughts?  advice?  History says she will be back to normal tomorrow or the next day, but I'm concerned about her instability the past 5 days after 3 weeks of mostly normal behavior.  The likelihood is she's back to her 2-6 week "good" cycle followed by 1-5 days of "episodes", and I was misled by the good weeks into thinking the classes had made the difference.

I can't imagine this ever goes well with a pwBPD.  In fact a big part of "getting healthier" is being able to chat for a couple days and take a few days off without having a meltdown.

I do like that you are direct with her about "not accepting blame".  It seems you have learned that lesson...hold tight to that, it will guide you.

Best,

FF

I agree with FF. Maybe a time limit for the calls could help.

That much contact every day isn't giving her time by herself to "sit with her thoughts," absorb learnings  from anger management and therapy, and develop self soothing skills. You are still operating as her go-to.

Bring down the contact to a couple of much shorter calls a day.

Thanks all, understood.

Today has been brutal.  Major rant for three hours.  Phone call like nothing was wrong an hour later.  Super Major rant an hour after that.  Kids screaming picking up on my depression.  At the end of the 20 minute "good" phone call she made a point that she might not be able to see the kids tonight because "after our argument I made plans" [ a date off Tinder ].  Makes all the self sacrifice for the kids chat a bit suspect...

Feels like she is back to her March/April volatility.  I've reached out to my attorney.

The latest rant:
HER: Wont get divorced.
Right now.
I'm going to focus on work, try to make as much as I can to support the kids on my own and eventually get the divorce.  Yes, going to date and keep working on being social, because what your boss said is true, networking is what gets you ahead.
My job is a nightmare to me, it pushes all my boundaries, but I am doing it for my kids
I hurt every day for them.  Only think of them.
If I break every bone, I don't care because I will leave them something at least.
    ME:  I understand what you are saying.  I will be here for you, and devoted to you as you work things out.  What you decide over time is what you will decide.  Just know that I love you unconditionally and my hope for us to be together won't change.
HER: I decided it last night with one line you said claiming yet again that there is nothing wrong with you. [Reference to me saying that her getting angry was not my fault... apparently translated into her head as me saying "nothing" is wrong with me ever]
That was it for me.
It's like being married to (NPD sister)
No way in hell can I deal with that.  Someone who cant admitt they arent perfect [which I do every time she accuses me]
Need to have the last word
Cant admit they are wrong
  ME (JADE):  I did not say there is nothing wrong with me.  I have never said that.  I said that the argument last night was not me being angry, all I did was ask you if I could have done anything different to avoid you getting emotional
HER: Blame everyone
Argue constantly
Manipulate
Angry
Nope
Point out all my flaws
  ME (More JADE):  Then you got very upset and blamed me.  And I hadn't done anything.
HER: No thank you
I dont need all that negativity
I am in a better space
Happier
Healthier
  ME:  Was a nice couple hours.  Sorry it didn't last.  Wish I understood why.
HER: I wake up wanting to live and work
When I was with you, I wanted to die
You made me feel like I was worthless
Like everything was my fault
You only pointed out my flaws
I avoided going out because I was embarrassed to have to explain to people when you would get angry at them
Or would use me for your jokes
You made me feel small
I dont want that
You have your good points, but refuse to acknowledge the bad, work on them and fix them
Worse, you refuse to acknowledge that I am telling you you did this to me [ unsure what she means here ]
Whether you believe you did or not is irrelevenat
  ME (more JADE):  I am doing a lot of work through therapy and group.  I'm sorry you don't see that.
HER: They are my feelings that have always gone misunderstood, pushed to the side,
I hope you get the help you need as I am glad i am getting the help i need
I wish you luck with your journey
We are on different paths, but need to walk alongside each other for the sake of our children [LMAO, now she wants to walk together?]
I can do it, we just cant be married to one another.  I recognize that and am okay with it.
Our current living situation works
  ME: It is unclear what caused this, but I hope it helped you somehow.  I will be here for you when you want to talk.
HER:  Dont have to get a divorce
But we are no longer husband and wife.  Just making that clear.
  ME: I don't agree.  But we can discuss that later.  Kids need me now [they are picking up my mood, screaming, hitting, naptime]
HER: Wasnt up for discussion.  We dont live together since April, you filed two restraining orders against me and have a no contact order on me.  We are pretty much divorced.
I will do as I like and make choices for my life and for myself.
  ME (Major JADE):  As you always have.
HER: Not
Because if I had, i would have my health  (huh?)
I would have stopped trying to have babies (complete lie)
I would have left after the first sign of abuse (there has been no signs, from me and I doubt she means her abuse)
I would be single
So on and so forth
So no
I listened to people
Insteaf of myself [Last time the narrative was that they told her to go but she mistakenly decided to stay]
  ME:  Would you please stop.  We should talk later.
HER: Instead

20 minutes later, ME:  Thank you.  I was able to get the kids in bed.
Again, I don't understand how we went from planning a happy event to this in less than an hour.
Whatever you are going through right now seems really painful, call me whenever you want to talk.

Was very therapeutic just writing this down...  Thoughts?

Wasn't no contact better?

Serious question.

How about we put it in context of a question  "When someone proves to you through words and actions that they are unable to consistently have respectful conversations...are you able to believe them and honor their choices with your actions?"

Thoughts?

I'm interested in what your L says.

Best,

FF

Yes and no.  It was much worse for me, but also much less stressful.  She is the best friend I've ever had, we haven't been romantic but have had some great times as friends in these conversations, and I had hope for the relationship which I had lost.

Additionally, I don't think pwBPD do well with complete NC for many months.  At  least with my W it is out of sight out of mind, and anger at being abandoned.  This built up to incredible levels that I may never overcome.  Another 2 months and I think there would have been zero chance at reconciliation, but who knows.


And this is what it comes down to.  I've always told her it is about the ratios.  We have 28 amazing days, and then 1-2 bad ones.  The ratio makes it worth it.  The 28 have not been amazing as I can tell she is holding onto anger some of the time and hesitant.. but they have been good to very good.  Because of the suppressed anger the 1-2 bad ones are in the very bad category, but not quite horrific (no violence).  The advantage of being able to hang up the phone for a while.

Unfortunately with children those 1-2 very bad days become damaging and unacceptable.  But since she sees this as all my fault, and that she would never harm her children, when I draw that line she becomes dysregulated.  She still does not believe she did anything wrong the night she screamed at and injured our children.  I doubt she will ever believe she did those things even though I have the marks to prove it and the torn clothes, and the 20 minutes of out of control rage video from April to verify that she is capable of complete loss of control through violent means.


Me too.  Setting up a consult early next week.  Also need to discuss impact of selling my house on possible future divorce.  Bankruptcy attorney said I'll keep the appreciation, so it will solve a lot of financial difficulty... it's a crazy sellers market right now and my house appreciated 20-30 percent.  But... with all this volatility I'm concerned.

UPDATE:  This just came in (she had said her lawyer read the texts and agreed with her that I threatened her, but refused to tell me how.. so I needed clarification):
On her statements to you, from both what I saw in videos, text messages, and what you told me (and she testified to in court) she is mentally ill.  I have never been in contact with any lawyer who may be representing her, and I doubt she has a real lawyer.  I read a lot of your messages to her, and I saw nothing that was physically threatening (which is what legally I am concerned about).  I think it is probable that you "trigger" her which she may perceive as a threat, even though legally it is not.

Sadly that was my attempt at it.  Lately I've been turning off my phone and setting a timer for 30 minutes, then one hour.  That has been very effective.  In real life, she follows me and pokes me until I lose my temper.  She made me promise to never leave the house because she feels abandoned, and the few times I've asked permission she has said no.  I've literally sat in my car in the driveway as a compromise, though she says I'm embarrassing her in front of the neighbors.  I have not yet reached the point I can completely shut off the hurt and pain during the onslaught, though I am working on it.

Unfortunately this time I had promised my 2.5 year old son that he could play on my phone... so I couldn't turn it off and couldn't "not see" the notifications pop up.  The twins were feeding off my depression and cranky/angry so it was a really hard emotional experience for me, and I did not handle it as well as I would have liked.

I did notice that she ignored everything I wrote except telling her I disagreed on us not being married right now.  Interpreted that as her reading and not caring.

Hey Ventak, I hope this will connect with you.

Everything I know about BPD and related things says that if your ratio is 28/2 (good/bad), then you probably need to adjust to

12 then be deliberate about taking a break even if she pitches a fit, then make sure you are not aware of her fit.

Then maybe 10 days after that be deliberate about a break.

Wash rinse repeat.

On the good days I would set up a schedule of 2-3 times per day, limit it to 15 min and/or 1 minute after things start going off the rails.  (do not try to correct her or help her).  She goes down a bad path, you leave the convo.

This is broad advice..hoping you will see that your adjustments are not a matter of nuance...but dramatic change.

Best,

FF

I agree with FF. Once the train starts going off the rails, you aren’t going to be able to correct course.

You are in an addictive relationship. You yearn for the good parts and endure the bad parts, hoping that things will get better. Look up Intermittent Reinforcement.

If you feel you must chat with her on a regular basis, be prepared to disconnect when she starts getting unruly. The first sign. Do it over and over and you will eventually train her that if she wants to speak with you, she needs to be respectful.

Here’s a good article on intermittent reinforcement and the trauma bond.

https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/this-powerful-manipulation-method-keeps-you-bonded-to-your-abuser/

Thanks FF and Cat,

That makes sense.  She's back into her neutral/good place for a while, and she asked me about what I want in the relationship.  She's never really done that before, and I was surprised at how easy it was for me to rattle it off.  Usually hard for me to state what I want.

One of the 20 items I told her is that whenever we are having a discussion and emotions start to rise, we both agree to table the discussion immediately, and not talk about it until we are both calm again.  She hasn't agreed to any of my needs yet, but at least she is listening and is contemplating it.  She had me write them down as I said them so she would remember exactly as I intended, and there wouldn't be an argument about what I had said.

Interesting that you brought up intermittent reward.  I read that on one of these forums a week or two ago, and thought OMG, that is exactly it.  Psychology and other soft sciences are one of my hobbies so I'm familiar with this as the most effective means of affecting change in humans and other animals.

One interesting point, and one I've thought of making its' own thread on...  She has a history of being cruel until I am completely broken, and not letting up until I reach that point.  I mean this literally from an emotional sense, I will end up crying in a heap on the floor.  Once she reaches that point, something kicks in and she returns to steady state.  Through therapy I had stopped doing that, which seemed to be the catalyst of the abuse and paranoia accusations, but the past five months have been so traumatic I'm back there and so is she.  Is this typical?

I've reached out to my doctor who prescribed an anti-depressent to help me through these lows I've been having.  Hoping it helps.

One thing that might help you Ventak is utilizing skills that come naturally to you.

I, too, have some Aspie traits and I’m very logical. I deal far better with logic than emotions.

What has helped me, other than developing a thick skin so that insults don’t penetrate, is going meta. You probably are very good at this too.

So when she’s trying to *break* you, rather than going along with the narrative, you go meta.

She says something nasty and unkind.

You ask, “What are you getting out of being insulting?”

She doubles down.

You: “Is this helping you to feel better about yourself?”

She continues, perhaps nastier.

You: “So by attempting to belittle me, you feel empowered?”

This is terrible advice for relationship building.  Only use it for self protection.

Basically you want to deprive her of the *fun* she’s getting out of being cruel to you. If her verbal cruelty no longer works on you, she will eventually give it up.

Advanced ninja skill: only say these things to yourself and keep an inscrutable facial expression. This is much better for not turning up the volume.

Things were back to great again, she had even lost the "withhold" that was obviously there and caused by her suppressed anger.  For two days...

Then our 2.5 year old son started to act like a 2.5 year old and pissed her off... and she started blaming me for raising a "white baby" (she's mexican culturally) and taking months away from her and her children that she would never get back.  After 30 minutes had passed and I had hope she had calmed some, I pointed out that the 1.5 years that I've been taking care of the kids I did everything the way she had asked me to, and I continue to do so.  She also blames me for the three years she stayed in bed, though the logic is somewhat obtuse.  I stayed quiet for another 30 minutes...

Then things went south.  I asked her if there was anything that could be done to get back to where it had been an hour before.  She said that she had a lot of anger for me stealing the time from her children.  I (JADE) told her that was her actions, not mine.  Her logic is that calling the police was a p*ssy move.  When I (JADE) pointed out that I didn't ask the police to arrest her and that she had called the police on me four times prior to that she started to defend those as justified calls.  When I (JADE) said that I had half inch fingernail marks on my neck and my clothes torn off, she somehow thought that the bruise that I caused holding her arm so that the broom she was hitting me with wouldn't hurt our son was the worse offense and proof that I am the abusive one.  At that point I left the conversation.

To show how deeply she cares about our children and prioritizes them, she cancelled the visit for tomorrow, because I just want her to be a weekend mom, whatever that means.  Being her days off are Sun/Mon, this kinda is her weekend.

Started the anti-depressant, can't wait for it to kick in...

Why can't she just not have those two great days :'(.  Best we've had in years...  breaks me, breaks my heart, demolishes my soul.

Thank you, well written. Agree with many thoughts

How long was this conversation in total?

I'm struggling to understand a healthy reason to continue any discussion after being accused of raising a white baby.  That's something her mental health team can guide her on...you really shouldn't be involved in that.

Best,

FF

About 3-4 minutes of conversation over a 75 minute time period I would guess.

It is obvious that while she has made some very good progress in some areas, there is still a lot she needs to do.  Unfortunately she still has a great deal of anger that surfaces every few days after things start going well with us.  I understand her sense of betrayal, but it is based off of a completely false narrative invented to absolve her of any responsibility.  She is mentally incapable of agreeing we both did things that hurt the other, forgive those actions and move forward.  She continues to believe that I was acting erratically in March and refuses to talk about April assaults.  And perhaps seeing your wife scream at your daughter and dig her fingernails deep into your neck choking you brings out erratic behavior?

Feels like we are back to me needing to force distance from me and our children, tapping into her abandonment issues and further eroding our relationship.

I agree with FF. You are still giving her car too much time that results in her invalid and untrue accusations, and she then pulls you into JADEing.

It is difficult to cut it off, but you need to. She will not change this behavior until you change your behavior. Be the emotional leader. Right now, you are allowing her to take the lead.

Could use some guidance.

This morning, I reached out:
ME - Hope you feel better today.  You are missed.
HER - Leave me alone
ME - You are still upset, I will give you space and be here when you want to talk.
HER - I am getting a restraining order
ME - I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
ME - I will respect your need for time/space.  I've said all along it is your choice and I will respect your choices.
ME - I am very concerned for you, and will be here if you change your mind.
HER - Of course
HER - You keep threatening me [WTF?]
HER - But now i have proof its you that has been stalking me [cannot possibly be true]
ME - Turning off for an hour.
HER - Bye
HER - Tell me how you like jail

My "instinct" at this point is to just not reply and wait for her to take the next steps.  This whole thing is so surreal...

Have you ever seen this? A person with a bad dog who screams and swats the dog when they are frustrated with it. And the dog never improves.

Obviously the person doesn't know how to reach the dog in a meaningful way. And it's incredible that they keep doing the thing that doesn't work.

You are caught in that same place. You know the things you are doing aren't helpful and are ill advised and you keep doing them. Confronting someone's raw and internally driven emotions by expressing your own (and wanting to be heard) is "swatting the dog".

The dog want's to be understood, communicated to in a way they understand (which takes a lot of effort to figure out), and loved. Right?  She's a volatile personality which means the bad goes away as fast as it come in and its smart not to give it an extended life by holding on to it.

Going back to the dog analogy. The dog never responds to the swatting and screaming - and the dog and owner rarely stay together. The dog runs away or the owner gets rid of it.

This just escalated, step by step. She is upset and is trying to get your attention to listen.

There were several points to defuse.
The first would have put it off (not the best, but not terrible tactic - maybe she will will reach baseline on her own).
The second would have let her express her frustration for the day, be heard, and start her return to baseline (I like this tactic best).
The third point (when it got to "jail") is to redirect and end on a humble note. (The situation is deteriorated, best to just be ambiguously trite and get off the line)

This morning, I reached out:
ME - Hope you feel better today.  You are missed.
HER - Leave me alone
ME - You are still upset, I will give you space and be here when you want to talk. OK, talk to you later.
 :wee:

HER - I am getting a restraining order
ME - I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
What's up.****
 :wee:

ME - I will respect your need for time/space.  I've said all along it is your choice and I will respect your choices.
ME - I am very concerned for you, and will be here if you change your mind.
HER - Of course
HER - You keep threatening me [WTF?]
That needs to stop. Can you tell me what is upsetting you? <Listen> OK, I will be sure not to do that.
 :wee:

HER - But now i have proof its you that has been stalking me [cannot possibly be true]
ME - Turning off for an hour.
HER - Bye
HER - Tell me how you like jail
Jail would not be good.


Or wait two days and contact her like nothing happened. At that point she may have completely moved on. If not politely back away.

This was so hard from me to understand and even harder to actually do. 

It sometimes feels like I'm "letting them get away with being bad"... (at least that's the internal monologue that I fight). 

How do these last few threads sit with you?

Best,

FF

She obviously vents her frustration by talking to you. She doesn't feel heard/understood, so she vents by getting you twisted up in a knot.

And you take the bait.

It's dysfunctional coping on her part. No question.

It's also dysfunctional coping when your child throws a tantrum in the middle of the grocery store.

The most important thing is to recognize dysfunctional coping and do things that psychologist suggest work when there is dysfunctional coping.

Would you try to reason with you child during a tantrum? Would you engage in a debate about why a bag of M&M's is the healthiest dietary choice? Would you be wounded when they said "I hate you".  Would you offer them $10 to stop?

Adult tantrums are much harder to understand, but the same principles apply.

I know what the upset is about.  Our two year old was throwing a tantrum, she had a bad morning with her family, was tired and in pain... and so she decided that if I had not forced her away from the children for three months she would have raised them properly and our son would be the perfect angel she envisioned.  She literally told me that these are not her children.  Understand that she has been in bed an average of 20 hours a day for the past 3 years until a month before this all started happening.  So, my raising our children alone was not about her arrest and no contact orders, but about her not being a participant in their lives.

I have been very frustrated by her constant anger about this.  I went through considerable hoops to get her access to the children when the state did not want her to, and she rejected it once it was done.  I did not ask for her to be arrested and have a no contact order.  I did not ask for DHS to open a case against us for four months.  And I'm sick and tired of taking all the responsibility for some extremely horrid behavior from her.  So after her sulking for an hour and blaming me for a 2 year old being a 2 year old, I finally told her that her actions had consequences and that her being separated from her children was not my fault but hers.

A person can only take so much gaslighting...  I wish I was better at this, but I'm not yet.  But I am trying to learn.

Thanks for the advice, those make sense.

I still have no idea how to validate her feelings of anger and betrayal on these issues when she accuses me of being the abusive one, of using the kids against her, of keeping her from them, on and on.  She will not take any accountability, and I've told her I know that I hurt her and understand why she would feel betrayed.  But she is like a pitbull with a bone.. and I have been much too thoughtful based on her behavior to have to be abused further.  But then she shows progress and I become hopeful... this is very difficult.

I think my wounds might be too raw, I don't know.  I'm fine with her getting away with being bad if she was willing to drop it.  But she keeps attacking me about blaming me for the consequences of her bad behavior and using it as a push away whenever things look promising.  Three times in the past nine days the yo-yo has gone down.  I'm reaching a breaking point, which feels tragic because I've seen her do things a few times that she's never done before because of her classes.

My brain is telling me that we need space and let her get much further along in the process...  My emotions are telling me she will abandon me if I do so.

Quick thought here, as there's a lot going on for you.

This stood out to me:


The information you're getting -- a sense of being at a loss of how to validate those statements coming from her -- is, I think, accurate information. Perhaps you are at a loss of how to validate that, because there is nothing to validate.

I think formflier and Skip are also pointing to something similar -- it may be time to learn how to end your "conversations" earlier, and maybe it would be helpful to start a list or reference document of "conversation enders" -- where, if you hear it from her, it signals that she isn't in a place where she can be rational, and any further participation by you won't help either of you.

I know this is really "in the weeds" detail stuff. You can consider if it'd be a helpful addition to new things you try (such as exiting interactions with her sooner).

The list of "statements/references where I will exit the conversation" could be:

She references the color of skin of anyone in the family in a derogatory or non-positive way
She accuses you of being abusive
She says you use the kids against her
She says you are keeping the kids from her
She says the kids are not her kids (by the way, are you recording any of these calls?)
She blames you for the kids' behavior
She blames you for choices she made
She asserts things that are not real ("you're stalking me")

There are probably more specific items that could be added to that kind of list, that could serve as a reference for you when you are perhaps not sure whether to continue interacting or not.

...

Re: Skip's example: I am referencing the example of the "dog" and "dog trainer", not because I am equating one or the other of you as "a dog" in real life, or attributing any kind of positive or negative attributes of humans or animals to either of you. I'm referencing the example because of the dynamic between the two participants. I'm also not a dog trainer so bear with me if I mischaracterize anything in this broad brush analogy.

1. So one participant has more control over their choices than the other one. The "dog" acts at an instinctual, reactive level. The "human" isn't ruled by instinct, and can make choices against what instinct/reaction would want. If there is to be a change in the dynamic between the two, one participant needs to do something differently, and only the human can do that.

2. Also, it may seem "mean" or "cruel" to not give the dog what it seems to want or what pleases or calms it in the moment. Imagine, though, getting a snarling, biting dog to "settle down" by giving it treats. Sure, it eats the treats, and that kind of pleases it and calms it in the moment. But, what you are training it to do is: any time it wants to "feel good" or "get the treat", it engages in bad behavior (snarling, biting, etc).

Point 1: In order to change the dynamic between you and your W, you will need to be the "human" in the interaction, and choose different paths than you have in the past. In the past, perhaps, you both have "talked" or "conversed" for a long time together, over many days. Maybe it is time to try something new.

Point 2: in the past, as you've mentioned, she would berate you cruelly until you broke, and then she would seem to feel better. She was getting the reward (someone else feeling bad) for her bad behavior. Instead, changing your way of interaction with her is like changing a reward/treat system. If you end up trying the skill of ending conversations quickly at any red flag on your list, it will end her getting "rewarded" for breaking you down. So, if she no longer gets the "reward" feeling from being cruel to you, she may over time stop doing it. Whatever she chooses, you are taking responsibility for your half -- you stop exposing yourself to her cruelty as soon as possible, over and over.

An additional bonus to ending those conversations with her, besides changing the dynamic between you two, and limiting the cruelty that you receive, is that you will likely have more time to devote to the kids.

...

I guess that wasn't quick... oh well.

Last thought:


Good work noticing the different messages you're receiving. That's a vulnerable feeling, to be afraid of being alone and abandoned. I wonder how it would go to tap into wisemind about that feeling (notice the feeling, notice if it stays or passes), and/or use some CBT type skills like analyzing the thought for truth/reality.

Hang in there.

kells76

Addendum:

Consider whether the most loving thing to do for your wife, is to not participate in allowing her to be cruel. Maybe the most loving thing you can do for her isn't to stay in those "conversations" and "listen". Maybe the most loving thing you can do for her is to shut down those openings as soon as possible... to not participate in increasing her cruelty.

Yes..to clarify the big point I am trying to make.  She, you and your relationship are not in a place to handle communications like you have done recently (apparently with the courts blessing)

Yes there have been good times and yes some horrible times.

It's not wise to continue trying these long conversations in hopes that it will stay good.  It won't.

I would encourage you to STOP trying to figure out how to validate accusations (or the emotions behind them) and START ending the conversation.

"I don't know what to say.  A lot has been said, I'm going to take time to reflect."   Then stop communicating for a day or two.

At least this is where I'm coming from.

 red-flag red-flag red-flag red-flag  I think a lot of progress is in jeopardy by continually opening wounds.   red-flag red-flag red-flag red-flag

Best,

FF

Thanks all, extremely helpful in different ways.. great teamwork :)

I realize I have to start cutting off those conversations as soon as I hear the emotion kick in.  It is usually very obvious even to someone not closely attuned to her tone, her accent is almost non-existent until she becomes emotional.  Kells had a line in another thread about getting some juice.  I loved this idea...  She hates "psychology mumbo jumbo" so saying that I think "emotions are rising" or that "we are getting emotional" is a small trigger.  Leaving the conversation to get some juice or some other errand that needs running will give me a reason to stop the conversation and let her cool down.

And I get the stopping so much conversation... It's just so difficult.  I want to reconcile and she is intermittently wanting to divorce, usually when angry or upset.  Or at least she says she is.  But I do understand the need and the logic behind it.

The lashing out being a means of her being hurt and my not listening really resonated.   So much I need to learn on this approach, but it helped me focus. 

The RO always allowed video chatting, but her criminal judge made vague statements about it so we didn't for three months.  When I changed the RO to allow unsupervised visitation three days a week for a few hours, the judge clarified that the original RO was meant to allow non-physical communication and specifically stated it so there was no confusion.

So..she didn't solve the issue about getting someone to supervise?  You solved it for her?

Best,

FF

Don't worry about validation right now. Worry about invalidation.

Watch this video. It will help:
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating


Everyone hates psychology mumbo jumbo. Use what you learn her to make smart choices. But don't be Dr. Test-tube. This is how it sounds when we do that.

Hey, you are the problem here. You are acting mentally ill. The experts call it "you are unreasonable" disease. I can see that because I'm not the problem. I am not mentally ill. But I'm superior to you and will deal with your brokenness because I am good. Blah blah...

Better to keep it a level playing field.


Yes. When you see the freight train coming down the track, that is your cue.  But think of the words "exit with dignity". Don't burn her (or yourself). Don't allow it feel like punishment or retribution. Don't invalidate her (or yourself). Make it non-judgemental. Neutral.

If 80% of the discussion are good, cut the talk time to 70%. If 50% of the discussion are good, cut the talk time to 35%. Don't ride every conversation to exhaustion... its important to exit at high points. They will then incubate before the next call.

Pre-plan your graceful exits so you have them when you need them...
OMG, the dog just vomited on the carpet...
My neighbor is at the door, I promised to help him move a piece of furniture today...
Are you there? I can't hear you? Hello <click, turn off phone>
Kids are fighting...
Gotta haircut appointment, need to run...
My mom is on the other line, she says its important...


Don't swarm her. Don't love bomb. Don't make unreciprocated promises of unconditional love. You are doing that. It will feel needy, weak. Man up.This is really important. [Hard to say to you, sorry, but very important to say it].

Give the reconciliation room to breathe. Let her set the tempo on the love and commitment comments. Don't be the one initiating all the time (or even 50% of the time - shoot for 25%). If she is not saying it - then  be cool and wait. It will take time for the tempo to change/shift, but she can't move toward you if you sucking up all the air.


Yes, let her speak and show her you are listening by asking questions to better understand. Resist debating what she says or giving long responses. Don't invalidate.

Give the reconciliation room to breathe. Less is more.

Thought I mentioned that at the time.. but I consulted the DHS agent, my family law attorney and my psychiatrist.  All felt it was in the best interest of the twins to get unsupervised visits with their mom, assuming it was safe.  Family doctor said to ease her into further access which I am doing.  Her niece had supervised all the visitations and said she did very well with them.  The report from her therapist and DV classes to the judge was positive at her hearing.  She is back on anxiety/anti-depressant medication.

She did go a couple weeks without seeing them because she didn't solve her problem.  So, in a way I did solve it for her ultimately, but I felt that it was the right thing to do for our children.  S2 has improved incredibly with his communication, which could be coincidence as he was showing signs right before, but I do think he has done well with seeing his mother more.  D2's autism is more severe than S2 and lives in her own world so it is difficult to tell the impact.

There is a fine line between protection and using them to punish her that I wrestle with daily, and try to make sure that not only my intentions but my actions are in the best interest of all of us.

It sounds like you did the right thing for everyone.   |iiii

Great advice Skip, thanks.


Can you help me understand the part above.  I've been working hard at making her make her own decisions and following the pace that she sets.  On what you call love bombing, I have been following her lead, but have been tracking her actions/words for leads.  For instance, if she starts talking about what we are doing together as a family a year from now I take that as a cue that she is feeling like staying together and I will say something loving.  When she is being technical and distant I keep everything neutral. 

The times that I don't is when she is lashing out and claiming that I am using her in some way and don't actually care for her.  I take that as a desperate plea for validation of my feelings for her.  At least historically that has been the case.

She has never taken the lead on initiating through words, her initiating has always been non-verbal and does take some "guess work" on my part.  A typical example of this is that we would have a fight, I check in on her every once in a while and when she starts talking I will ask if she wants me to stay or go and she will say "do what you want".  Eventually she will grab my hand and wrap herself in my arms.  But she almost never initiates anything verbally... which makes it more difficult to gauge where she is over the phone.

As to what Skip is describing...

When she describes a family activity in the future, that is something you can validate -- "Yes, it's nice to think about is doing something as a family." You don't have to go overboard with it; just acknowledge her feelings are in a good place.

When she begins blaming you, or telling you how YOU feel or accusing you of not loving her -- when you know your own feelings, that is a situation in which you cannot validate the invalid. So telling her you do love her is arguing/JADEing with her feelings at the moment, and it takes the conversation no where but down.I

When you start to hear blaming, negative comments, that is when you need to exit the conversation -- not double-down on the love assurances.

I understand.  Hard to reconfigure 59 years of training... but I do get it now.  Even the positive is arguing/defending.  Hadn't seen it through that prism.

Nothing changes without changes. If you keep doing what you were doing, you will get the same result.

The "invalidation" video is eye opening.

Just as an exercise lets break down your last discussion with her:

ME - Hope you feel better today.  You are missed. HER - Leave me alone

Validating:  Ok, we can talk later.
Reason: It shows (not tells her) that you hear her and respect her feelings. It also leaves it to her to self sooth, see that she was unreasonable (which is important), and to adjust.

Invalidating: You are still upset, I will give you space and be here when you want to talk.
Reason: You basically say, wife, your feelings right now are the invalid reaction to emotions you have failed to control according to Dr Test tube. I will compensate for your inability to manage your emotions because, unlike you, I'm in control of mine. I will give you space (note I ignored your request and am not giving you space and will probably call you before you call me).

Also, why the love bomb at the opening. It feels like you are fishing for a response like "I miss you too".

She then says:

HER - I am getting a restraining order (in other words - LEAVE ME ALONE RIGHT NOW!)

Validating:  Ok, bye.
Reason: It shows (not tells her) that you hear her and respect her.

Invalidating:  I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
Reason: You are not hearing her plea to be left alone - or giving her space - rather you are debating her hyperbole. She can't and doesn't want a restraining order - she is reacting to you not respecting her.

Do you see that?

No doubt "leave me alone" is insulting to you and non-constructive. It would be to me too. When people are being a jerk, it is often constructive to be quiet so they can hear themselves. If you got off the phone right away and waited for her to call back, she would have had room to process her insulting and non-constructive comment.

This is what we mean by "let it breathe".

This is one of the areas where autism and BPD relationships have problems.  It is very difficult for me not to take the words as very literal and find the actual intent or hidden meaning.  I can train myself, but my brain will always process the words initially as exactly as stated.  The classic example I use is when someone says "how are you doing", my brain will go through my entire day to that point and do a complete analysis of how I am doing, but I've trained myself to immediately respond "Doing Great! How are you?".  I'm effective about 80% of the time.

This is where getting direct feedback on actual conversations is invaluable for me.

Exactly!  Very valuable. 

How do you do with "checklist mentality"?  I'm retired Naval Aviator and "checklists" and "if/then" type axioms has been very helpful at keeping me out of trouble and avoiding INVALIDATION. 

Please understand that 1 unit of invalidation does NOT equal 1 unit of validation.  I think most people believe invalidation is at least a factor of 10 more important.

How does that sit with you?

Best,

FF

I'm seeing a couple of new ways I'm invalidating, and been processing all morning how to break those bad habits.

My brain (like most autistics) is very rule driven.  Once a rule has been "set" it takes an act of god to ignore it.

I suspect a checklist and especially an if/then would be very useful.  Can you give some more detail?  I work much better with examples than abstractions.  Great at geometry, suck at calculus ;)

OK...while I don't have any experience with autism I do have experience teaching people checklists and if/then.

Not sure if your "imagination" helps you with this...but maybe try on that you are training to be smooth talking guy on the radio, whenever it's time for you to communicate with your wife.

 You too can sound cool on the radio like these guys! (https://youtu.be/5Wk36yF2alM)

Notice in all the radio calls you don't hear any "ummms and ahhhaaas" and any of that.

All these guys were taught to "think, press..talk" (and that order is incredibly important).

Most people "press...think...talk.." when they are speaking in real life because there is not so much of a need to keep the airwaves open and uncluttered.

Think:  Figure out what you should and should not say (get a plan)

Press:  Key the mike button and in your case start speaking or typing out a text

Talk:  Actually do the communicating, less is more.

So..by using the above as an axiom, you can deduce that if you are still thinking you should not move forward to "press" or "talk".

Now...you and I both know that a pwBPD can throw you curveballs.  I'm still shocked and amazed by the crazy that sometimes come out.

So...you need to have some safe things to say, that you have practiced so you can still sound "smooth" and "empathetic"   (reference back Skips comments on letting things breathe). 

"Babe..I need a few minutes to think, let me call you back in 10 minutes"

You can also try the,  "Hey..looks like (fill in name of kiddo) needs something, let me call you back after I handle this."

Give YOURSELF room to breathe and think and work checklists. 

Now..let's start the checklist.

1.  Am I suggesting how she feels?  (if so..don't)
2.  Am I trying to communicate how I feel?  (if so..don't)
3.  Am I trying to get her to "see the light"?  (if so..don't)


Note..avoiding invalidation is often as simple as gracefully saying you need a moment, or perhaps just keeping quiet.

At least in my world...FF keeping his mouth shut usually works out well.  :(

Best,

FF

May I ask what you’re getting from your desire to speak with her?

From what you’ve quoted, it seems like the conversation is civil for a few moments, then she gets triggered and it goes off the rails.

You try to appease her, or identify her emotion, and that further triggers her, which triggers you, and then you keep doing the same until she explodes.

Does that about describe the process?

The cycle is correct, but the in-between cycle is missing.  We historically go 2-6 weeks of being best friends, having great conversation, lots of laughs.. then meltdown for 1-3 days.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  For a while it went to the meltdowns would last 30 minutes to 4 hours which was tremendous improvement from her, and me learning to walk away before things got too bad.  Then she stopped her meds and steadily declined into rage and violence.

Now she is back on her meds (different, but seem to be working) and we just got through a 3 week cycle of total goodness and scores of hours of great conversation.  Recently there have been 3 meltdowns in the past 5 days.  Multiple factors could be in play, in that she is in her 3rd week of a very physically demanding job working 50-60 hours a week.  This after getting nearly zero exercise for 3 years, so she is tired and in pain.  Also our 2.5 year old has been acting like a 2.5 year old for much of that time period, which she is not used to as she hasn't been alone with him since he was a baby and has had supervised visits for the past 4 months and is getting to know him.  He was non-verbal when she left us at the beginning of March.  Most likely a combination of those two and other stressors.

I'm learning that some of the things that I'm trying to do to "make things better" are actually making things worse.

Skip was spot on when he said that she was telling me very loudly that she was hurt and that I wasn't listening to her.  FF seems to be on the right track with the less is more and everyone with the disconnect early strategy.  Things have been back to "good" for the past couple days, and I've cut back talk time by about a factor of 10.  She's been venting about work and I'm practicing some of the techniques everyone is sharing with those conversations, and seem to be getting very positive results so far.  Much easier to keep focus when it isn't during a personal attack.

I can see where it would seem that way.. but the good times don't generally get me here bewildered and confused :D

This particularly resonates.  I've been good about not discussing mental health or differing memories... I think this is the next layer of the onion.

My "sticking points" is I still don't know how to respond to her demands for divorce which she doesn't mean but keeps telling me she has been asking for for years.  My pointing out that she first asked me two weeks after our wedding is probably not my best strategy... and that she always changes her mind after she has calmed down.

The other one I can't wrap my brain around is dealing with her accusations of abuse.  She is convinced that I'm physically abusive and need help.  I'm not certain how her classes are going but I was extremely disappointed to read the description this weekend.  It specifically states that the DV classes for women are different because women so often are arrested for DV because they are abused and when they finally defend themselves they are the one arrested.  I'm not kidding.  But I have no words when she accuses me of that or the hacking into her accounts.

OK..demands for divorce.

First of all..think about the truth. 

Does she need to communicate with you to get a divorce?  Do you need to communicate with her to get a divorce?  (hint...the answer has 2 letters and starts with N! )


So..here is something for the group to discuss and you to try on in private for a while, before actually using it.


her:  blah blah blah...give me a divorce..blah blah blah

you:  I won't discuss that with you.   Anything else we can talk about at the moment?

her:  blah blah divorce, anger management and witches on broomsticks...blah blah"

you:  Have a good evening, looking forward to our next chat at (insert time)


Note:  No SET, no validation..no tricks..just not going to do it.  You did give her 1 option and if she chooses to talk about something pleasant..hang with the conversation.  If she brings up divorce a short time later then say the last line and exit.

Less is more.  You are not trying to fix anything.  You ARE trying to communicate to her that this dysfunctional tool she has been using will no longer work.  Over to her how long she tries.

Best,

FF

Just a slightly different take.

Agree with rewarding good behavior and discouraging bad behavior.

I often say to do these things with grace. The less obvious, the more effective.

Alternative example:

her:  blah blah blah...give me a divorce..blah blah blah

you:  I'm at the store and I just need to know if we need eggs. We can talk about the other stuff later.

She throws divorce at you take it literally and because it scares you to death. If she wants you to fall out of a chair at a restaurant, she just has to say "divorce". If you don't show anymore fear, she will likely dial it down. Be brave. Don't let it be a "button to push".

And the hits just keep on rolling...

After the requisite three good days... She was in a bad mood so I just let her stew with minimal to no conversation.  I pick up the kids a little early and she says that I need to delete all the videos and images of stuff that I have of her (meaning the stuff used in court, etc..)  I start to comply (it's all backed up multiple spots) and she says go to recents.  I just took about 20 screen shots of our whatsapp conversation because she put it in "delete in 7 days mode".  She knows that I keep images of conversations where she is upset.  I go over them with my psychiatrist, and occasionally use it to show her that she actually did say something.  That is effective about 60% of the time.  I did remind her that I've told her that and that she knew I did it for that reason.  She said I used them in court, which is true.  She said this is why it's over between us and why she will never trust me.

I stopped the conversation and told her I was going to leave.  I asked her if she wanted me to come back in 10 minutes for the kids or take them with me now.

She started telling me "You asked me what I want, what I want is..."  I interrupted and told her that I was leaving and asked if she wanted me to come back in 10 minutes or take the kids with me now.  She said take the kids and I did.

When I arrived home I held myself back from forwarding the pictures of the messages she sent me telling me that I was going to jail, that I would be fired, that I was using work technology to hack into her and she had proof.  I mean, who wouldn't archive those messages and the rage before and after in case she ever followed through with her threats.  I know she did go to the local police and try to get me, my daughter and son in law arrested four months ago.  If she does so again, I would need that "in court" to defend myself... just as I had to defend myself against the restraining order she put against me.

So basically, she "caught" me doing something she knows I do and I've never hidden from her nor has she asked me to stop.  The thing I did was necessary to defend myself against her threats, in addition to showing her and my psychiatrist.  And now she has switched for the fourth time in 10 days.  She completely violated my privacy by demanding to see my phone.  And this is somehow proof of my untrustworthiness.

My plan is to sit on the sidelines until she reaches out, then do less is more and see how it works.

It feels like even when I do everything right she finds a way down the rabbit hole... :'(

Thoughts?

I just realized that both Sunday and Wednesday meltdowns were over minor things not really related to anything.  But she did get nasty text messages from her niece, who was the last family member being nice to her both mornings.  That and not a lot of sleep the night before.

Beginning to think that I'm her lightning rod for unspent destructive energy.

Got a full text blast this morning:

You are neglecting the kids, I'm going to have to go through DHS to get their medical needs met since I don't have a say (I have temporary legal custody through the RO).

Missing work today because I can't lift, which means I can't lift kids and won't be picking them up (Botox, for migraines, but she didn't have concerns about that yesterday pre-meltdown).

"A message for your file collection... I want a divorce.  Should I group text all our family so they know it is real?"

I haven't responded.  I can't think up anything that wouldn't be invalidating.  Even "I hear you" or "I understand" seems more likely to be taken as sarcastic or psycho-babble so I assume this is a less is more situation that will lead to an extinction burst.

That happens in many relationships - not just BPD.  But yes, you are the punch clown and today she is letting off steam...

(https://s7.orientaltrading.com/is/image/OrientalTrading/VIEWER_ZOOM/inflatable-clown-punching-bag~13948878)
                         Ventak

Have you read our article Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-4-cols

So you could translate her comments as she intended them (drama) which is...

blah, blah blah , you're a bad parent, hope that stings
blah, blah blah , I'm hurting and nobody cares
blah, blah, blah, I'm pushing your rawest button, so you can feel as bad as I do.

Or you translate them like a Karpman drama ninja which is, what would she be saying if she wasn't being such a b_t_h this morning.

blah, blah blah, it's killing me that the state is treating me like a threat to my own children.
blah, blah blah, I'm going to martyr myself by not seeing them
blah, blah blah, ahhhhhh...

Respond to the ninja version.

The children are disappointed that they won't see you today, but they understand.

Have the kids draw a get well card and text her a photo.

Then forget about it.

Ventak -

my experience might not be helpful to you while you experience yours but here it is.

my then partner now EX and I had a full mental health support team working to help us keep things more level.   2 psychologists, 1 psychiatrist,  1 mental health nurse.

whenever any of them inquired if my partner self harmed I always said no.   I associated self harm with cutting, or skin picking.    something of that nature.

it took a long time but eventually it clicked in my head that my partner used me to self harm.   I was her weapon of choice.    it really didn't have a lot to do with me,... I was just the tool she used to offload her negative emotions.    so she would push on me,  bait me, goad me.     I can honestly say no matter how I replied she could flip it into 'see you don't really love me'   or 'see its all your fault - you hurt me'.

now of course there were times I did actually hurt her.   not intentionally to be sure.     but there were also many more times I was just a bystander in a drama that I had nothing to do with.    

 

this is the only part I would consider replying to...   just an acknowledgement of the change in schedule.    BIFF -  brief, informative, firm, friendly.    okay I will let the kids know about the change in schedule...

'ducks

Just to keep all these comments in perspective...

I'm making relationship rebuilding suggestions...
Baby ducks is making relationship neutral "don't reward drama" suggestions...
Formflier is making zero tolerance suggestions... don't step over my boundaries.

There is value in all of these approaches (tools) and they can be used at different times for different things.

There is immense value in getting your boundary across and held with the minimum amount of force.  

There is little value in expending energy (your own energy) to communicate and hold a boundary, and then have the boundary crumble.  In fact, reasonable arguments can be made this would embolden someone to "crash other boundaries".

So...there is the pickle.  How to find "the sweet spot"?

I have a number of medical issues that leave me "spent" towards the end of the day and has an unfortunate affect of making it harder for me to deal with "nuance".  So lots of my boundary stuff just come down along the lines of "no tolerance".

Best,

FF

Things have been moving along...  the advice given by FF, Cat and Skip have given amazing results.  My transition from trying to validate to focusing on not invalidating has had huge dividends.  Our communication is greatly improved, and I've been able to quickly de-escalate conversations.  In many ways things are better than they have ever been, yet she has a lot of (unjustified) anger based off of distorted memories which crops up every time she starts feeling good about us (every 3-7 days).  The no-contact order will be reviewed in about a week, which will make things interesting.

She has been doing an amazing job with the twins, who have both had a development leap since she started spending time with them.  It is so encouraging that she is finally active with them, I think this whole mess provided a motivation that was needed...  Our S2 has gone from 3 words total to about 200 in the past couple months, and our D2 has started talking finally.  She went from only using 1 word, to counting from 1 to 10 in one day... remarkable.

This community has had an immeasurably positive impact on me and my entire family.  I can never thank you all enough.