I might have gone too far this time...

[Ventak]

So tonight my BPDw decided to have a bizarre conversation.  She's been feeling a little too good about us lately so the push off began in earnest last Saturday night.  We had been having great conversations the past few weeks, chatting on video 3-8 hours a day after the judge clarified that video was allowed under the RO.

We've been making plans for when the no contact is lifted and I think that scared her... but we were having a great night when she said she wanted to talk about something, but didn't want me to freak out.  We had a very rational, non-emotional conversation about "being divorced, without getting a (legal) divorce".  It was very odd, but it was clearly her way of telling me that all the plans we've talked about the past 3 weeks were no longer applicable.  I kept trying to pin her down on if that meant she wanted to change anything about how we've been interacting the past few weeks and then seque that into future, but she kept evading.  There was a weird segue about how I'm co-dependent, never really dated outside of my two wives and should start dating... which is historically either her way of getting me to express my devotion to her or her way of justifying an affair with another man.

After 30-45 minutes of this, she started to get emotional.  I pointed it out and asked if we should stop.  She became calm and said that we should.  I then asked her if there was something I could have done differently that would have avoided her becoming emotional.  This was apparently a trigger, where she went off the ledge into mini-rage mode.  Told me her lawyer was going to sue me to pay for her divorce fees, that he'd contact me this week, that I was too much stress for her, that this was what is wrong in our marriage, that we can't communicate.

Then I very calmly told her that we do not have a problem communicating, that she has problems with anger.  That I was not going to accept her blaming me all the time for her anger problems.  That it was not us, it was her, and that leaving me is not going to change her inability to control herself, it will just move it to someone else.  I had done absolutely nothing to trigger her, we were having very good communication and she got angry for no reason I could understand.  That it was perfectly legitimate for me to ask her if she needed me to do something differently to avoid this in the future and that if she was triggered by that, that was not my having poor communication skills, it was her not being able to control unjustified anger.

Anywho, kindof left all my work learned here and reading books on BPD on the floor for this one.  But the 137th divorce threat was apparently one too many for me to take.

Probably just venting so I can sleep tonight... but thoughts?  advice?  History says she will be back to normal tomorrow or the next day, but I'm concerned about her instability the past 5 days after 3 weeks of mostly normal behavior.  The likelihood is she's back to her 2-6 week "good" cycle followed by 1-5 days of "episodes", and I was misled by the good weeks into thinking the classes had made the difference.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

  chatting on video 3-8 hours a day 

I can't imagine this ever goes well with a pwBPD.  In fact a big part of "getting healthier" is being able to chat for a couple days and take a few days off without having a meltdown.

I do like that you are direct with her about "not accepting blame".  It seems you have learned that lesson...hold tight to that, it will guide you.

Best,

FF

[Jabiru]

I agree with FF. Maybe a time limit for the calls could help.

[GaGrl]

That much contact every day isn't giving her time by herself to "sit with her thoughts," absorb learnings  from anger management and therapy, and develop self soothing skills. You are still operating as her go-to.

Bring down the contact to a couple of much shorter calls a day.

[Ventak]

Thanks all, understood.

Today has been brutal.  Major rant for three hours.  Phone call like nothing was wrong an hour later.  Super Major rant an hour after that.  Kids screaming picking up on my depression.  At the end of the 20 minute "good" phone call she made a point that she might not be able to see the kids tonight because "after our argument I made plans" [ a date off Tinder ].  Makes all the self sacrifice for the kids chat a bit suspect...

Feels like she is back to her March/April volatility.  I've reached out to my attorney.

The latest rant:
HER: Wont get divorced.
Right now.
I'm going to focus on work, try to make as much as I can to support the kids on my own and eventually get the divorce.  Yes, going to date and keep working on being social, because what your boss said is true, networking is what gets you ahead.
My job is a nightmare to me, it pushes all my boundaries, but I am doing it for my kids
I hurt every day for them.  Only think of them.
If I break every bone, I don't care because I will leave them something at least.
    ME:  I understand what you are saying.  I will be here for you, and devoted to you as you work things out.  What you decide over time is what you will decide.  Just know that I love you unconditionally and my hope for us to be together won't change.
HER: I decided it last night with one line you said claiming yet again that there is nothing wrong with you. [Reference to me saying that her getting angry was not my fault... apparently translated into her head as me saying "nothing" is wrong with me ever]
That was it for me.
It's like being married to (NPD sister)
No way in hell can I deal with that.  Someone who cant admitt they arent perfect [which I do every time she accuses me]
Need to have the last word
Cant admit they are wrong
  ME (JADE):  I did not say there is nothing wrong with me.  I have never said that.  I said that the argument last night was not me being angry, all I did was ask you if I could have done anything different to avoid you getting emotional
HER: Blame everyone
Argue constantly
Manipulate
Angry
Nope
Point out all my flaws
  ME (More JADE):  Then you got very upset and blamed me.  And I hadn't done anything.
HER: No thank you
I dont need all that negativity
I am in a better space
Happier
Healthier
  ME:  Was a nice couple hours.  Sorry it didn't last.  Wish I understood why.
HER: I wake up wanting to live and work
When I was with you, I wanted to die
You made me feel like I was worthless
Like everything was my fault
You only pointed out my flaws
I avoided going out because I was embarrassed to have to explain to people when you would get angry at them
Or would use me for your jokes
You made me feel small
I dont want that
You have your good points, but refuse to acknowledge the bad, work on them and fix them
Worse, you refuse to acknowledge that I am telling you you did this to me [ unsure what she means here ]
Whether you believe you did or not is irrelevenat
  ME (more JADE):  I am doing a lot of work through therapy and group.  I'm sorry you don't see that.
HER: They are my feelings that have always gone misunderstood, pushed to the side,
I hope you get the help you need as I am glad i am getting the help i need
I wish you luck with your journey
We are on different paths, but need to walk alongside each other for the sake of our children [LMAO, now she wants to walk together?]
I can do it, we just cant be married to one another.  I recognize that and am okay with it.
Our current living situation works
  ME: It is unclear what caused this, but I hope it helped you somehow.  I will be here for you when you want to talk.
HER:  Dont have to get a divorce
But we are no longer husband and wife.  Just making that clear.
  ME: I don't agree.  But we can discuss that later.  Kids need me now [they are picking up my mood, screaming, hitting, naptime]
HER: Wasnt up for discussion.  We dont live together since April, you filed two restraining orders against me and have a no contact order on me.  We are pretty much divorced.
I will do as I like and make choices for my life and for myself.
  ME (Major JADE):  As you always have.
HER: Not
Because if I had, i would have my health  (huh?)
I would have stopped trying to have babies (complete lie)
I would have left after the first sign of abuse (there has been no signs, from me and I doubt she means her abuse)
I would be single
So on and so forth
So no
I listened to people
Insteaf of myself [Last time the narrative was that they told her to go but she mistakenly decided to stay]
  ME:  Would you please stop.  We should talk later.
HER: Instead

20 minutes later, ME:  Thank you.  I was able to get the kids in bed.
Again, I don't understand how we went from planning a happy event to this in less than an hour.
Whatever you are going through right now seems really painful, call me whenever you want to talk.

Was very therapeutic just writing this down...  Thoughts?

[formflier]

Wasn't no contact better?

Serious question.

How about we put it in context of a question  "When someone proves to you through words and actions that they are unable to consistently have respectful conversations...are you able to believe them and honor their choices with your actions?"

Thoughts?

I'm interested in what your L says.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Wasn't no contact better?

Serious question.

Yes and no.  It was much worse for me, but also much less stressful.  She is the best friend I've ever had, we haven't been romantic but have had some great times as friends in these conversations, and I had hope for the relationship which I had lost.

Additionally, I don't think pwBPD do well with complete NC for many months.  At  least with my W it is out of sight out of mind, and anger at being abandoned.  This built up to incredible levels that I may never overcome.  Another 2 months and I think there would have been zero chance at reconciliation, but who knows.

How about we put it in context of a question  "When someone proves to you through words and actions that they are unable to consistently have respectful conversations...are you able to believe them and honor their choices with your actions?"

Thoughts?

And this is what it comes down to.  I've always told her it is about the ratios.  We have 28 amazing days, and then 1-2 bad ones.  The ratio makes it worth it.  The 28 have not been amazing as I can tell she is holding onto anger some of the time and hesitant.. but they have been good to very good.  Because of the suppressed anger the 1-2 bad ones are in the very bad category, but not quite horrific (no violence).  The advantage of being able to hang up the phone for a while.

Unfortunately with children those 1-2 very bad days become damaging and unacceptable.  But since she sees this as all my fault, and that she would never harm her children, when I draw that line she becomes dysregulated.  She still does not believe she did anything wrong the night she screamed at and injured our children.  I doubt she will ever believe she did those things even though I have the marks to prove it and the torn clothes, and the 20 minutes of out of control rage video from April to verify that she is capable of complete loss of control through violent means.

I'm interested in what your L says.

Me too.  Setting up a consult early next week.  Also need to discuss impact of selling my house on possible future divorce.  Bankruptcy attorney said I'll keep the appreciation, so it will solve a lot of financial difficulty... it's a crazy sellers market right now and my house appreciated 20-30 percent.  But... with all this volatility I'm concerned.

UPDATE:  This just came in (she had said her lawyer read the texts and agreed with her that I threatened her, but refused to tell me how.. so I needed clarification):
On her statements to you, from both what I saw in videos, text messages, and what you told me (and she testified to in court) she is mentally ill.  I have never been in contact with any lawyer who may be representing her, and I doubt she has a real lawyer.  I read a lot of your messages to her, and I saw nothing that was physically threatening (which is what legally I am concerned about).  I think it is probable that you "trigger" her which she may perceive as a threat, even though legally it is not.

[Ventak]

Is there something in your conversations that help you predict she is going to spiral into spouting blame and nonsense? If you recognize it, that is the time to end the conversation. Engaging in conversations that go nowhere isn't doing either of you any good.

Sadly that was my attempt at it.  Lately I've been turning off my phone and setting a timer for 30 minutes, then one hour.  That has been very effective.  In real life, she follows me and pokes me until I lose my temper.  She made me promise to never leave the house because she feels abandoned, and the few times I've asked permission she has said no.  I've literally sat in my car in the driveway as a compromise, though she says I'm embarrassing her in front of the neighbors.  I have not yet reached the point I can completely shut off the hurt and pain during the onslaught, though I am working on it.

Unfortunately this time I had promised my 2.5 year old son that he could play on my phone... so I couldn't turn it off and couldn't "not see" the notifications pop up.  The twins were feeding off my depression and cranky/angry so it was a really hard emotional experience for me, and I did not handle it as well as I would have liked.

I did notice that she ignored everything I wrote except telling her I disagreed on us not being married right now.  Interpreted that as her reading and not caring.

[formflier]

Hey Ventak, I hope this will connect with you.

Everything I know about BPD and related things says that if your ratio is 28/2 (good/bad), then you probably need to adjust to

12 then be deliberate about taking a break even if she pitches a fit, then make sure you are not aware of her fit.

Then maybe 10 days after that be deliberate about a break.

Wash rinse repeat.

On the good days I would set up a schedule of 2-3 times per day, limit it to 15 min and/or 1 minute after things start going off the rails.  (do not try to correct her or help her).  She goes down a bad path, you leave the convo.

This is broad advice..hoping you will see that your adjustments are not a matter of nuance...but dramatic change.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with FF. Once the train starts going off the rails, you aren’t going to be able to correct course.

You are in an addictive relationship. You yearn for the good parts and endure the bad parts, hoping that things will get better. Look up Intermittent Reinforcement.

If you feel you must chat with her on a regular basis, be prepared to disconnect when she starts getting unruly. The first sign. Do it over and over and you will eventually train her that if she wants to speak with you, she needs to be respectful.

[Cat Familiar]

Here’s a good article on intermittent reinforcement and the trauma bond.

https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/this-powerful-manipulation-method-keeps-you-bonded-to-your-abuser/

[Ventak]

Thanks FF and Cat,

That makes sense.  She's back into her neutral/good place for a while, and she asked me about what I want in the relationship.  She's never really done that before, and I was surprised at how easy it was for me to rattle it off.  Usually hard for me to state what I want.

One of the 20 items I told her is that whenever we are having a discussion and emotions start to rise, we both agree to table the discussion immediately, and not talk about it until we are both calm again.  She hasn't agreed to any of my needs yet, but at least she is listening and is contemplating it.  She had me write them down as I said them so she would remember exactly as I intended, and there wouldn't be an argument about what I had said.

Interesting that you brought up intermittent reward.  I read that on one of these forums a week or two ago, and thought OMG, that is exactly it.  Psychology and other soft sciences are one of my hobbies so I'm familiar with this as the most effective means of affecting change in humans and other animals.

One interesting point, and one I've thought of making its' own thread on...  She has a history of being cruel until I am completely broken, and not letting up until I reach that point.  I mean this literally from an emotional sense, I will end up crying in a heap on the floor.  Once she reaches that point, something kicks in and she returns to steady state.  Through therapy I had stopped doing that, which seemed to be the catalyst of the abuse and paranoia accusations, but the past five months have been so traumatic I'm back there and so is she.  Is this typical?

I've reached out to my doctor who prescribed an anti-depressent to help me through these lows I've been having.  Hoping it helps.

[Cat Familiar]

One thing that might help you Ventak is utilizing skills that come naturally to you.

I, too, have some Aspie traits and I’m very logical. I deal far better with logic than emotions.

What has helped me, other than developing a thick skin so that insults don’t penetrate, is going meta. You probably are very good at this too.

So when she’s trying to *break* you, rather than going along with the narrative, you go meta.

She says something nasty and unkind.

You ask, “What are you getting out of being insulting?”

She doubles down.

You: “Is this helping you to feel better about yourself?”

She continues, perhaps nastier.

You: “So by attempting to belittle me, you feel empowered?”

This is terrible advice for relationship building.  Only use it for self protection.

Basically you want to deprive her of the *fun* she’s getting out of being cruel to you. If her verbal cruelty no longer works on you, she will eventually give it up.

[Cat Familiar]

Advanced ninja skill: only say these things to yourself and keep an inscrutable facial expression. This is much better for not turning up the volume.

[Ventak]

Things were back to great again, she had even lost the "withhold" that was obviously there and caused by her suppressed anger.  For two days...

Then our 2.5 year old son started to act like a 2.5 year old and pissed her off... and she started blaming me for raising a "white baby" (she's mexican culturally) and taking months away from her and her children that she would never get back.  After 30 minutes had passed and I had hope she had calmed some, I pointed out that the 1.5 years that I've been taking care of the kids I did everything the way she had asked me to, and I continue to do so.  She also blames me for the three years she stayed in bed, though the logic is somewhat obtuse.  I stayed quiet for another 30 minutes...

Then things went south.  I asked her if there was anything that could be done to get back to where it had been an hour before.  She said that she had a lot of anger for me stealing the time from her children.  I (JADE) told her that was her actions, not mine.  Her logic is that calling the police was a p*ssy move.  When I (JADE) pointed out that I didn't ask the police to arrest her and that she had called the police on me four times prior to that she started to defend those as justified calls.  When I (JADE) said that I had half inch fingernail marks on my neck and my clothes torn off, she somehow thought that the bruise that I caused holding her arm so that the broom she was hitting me with wouldn't hurt our son was the worse offense and proof that I am the abusive one.  At that point I left the conversation.

To show how deeply she cares about our children and prioritizes them, she cancelled the visit for tomorrow, because I just want her to be a weekend mom, whatever that means.  Being her days off are Sun/Mon, this kinda is her weekend.

Started the anti-depressant, can't wait for it to kick in...

Why can't she just not have those two great days :'(.  Best we've had in years...  breaks me, breaks my heart, demolishes my soul.

[Joshua92]

Thank you, well written. Agree with many thoughts

[formflier]

   After 30 minutes had passed 

How long was this conversation in total?

I'm struggling to understand a healthy reason to continue any discussion after being accused of raising a white baby.  That's something her mental health team can guide her on...you really shouldn't be involved in that.

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

How long was this conversation in total?

I'm struggling to understand a healthy reason to continue any discussion after being accused of raising a white baby.  That's something her mental health team can guide her on...you really shouldn't be involved in that.

About 3-4 minutes of conversation over a 75 minute time period I would guess.

It is obvious that while she has made some very good progress in some areas, there is still a lot she needs to do.  Unfortunately she still has a great deal of anger that surfaces every few days after things start going well with us.  I understand her sense of betrayal, but it is based off of a completely false narrative invented to absolve her of any responsibility.  She is mentally incapable of agreeing we both did things that hurt the other, forgive those actions and move forward.  She continues to believe that I was acting erratically in March and refuses to talk about April assaults.  And perhaps seeing your wife scream at your daughter and dig her fingernails deep into your neck choking you brings out erratic behavior?

Feels like we are back to me needing to force distance from me and our children, tapping into her abandonment issues and further eroding our relationship.

[GaGrl]

How long was this conversation in total?

I'm struggling to understand a healthy reason to continue any discussion after being accused of raising a white baby.  That's something her mental health team can guide her on...you really shouldn't be involved in that.

Best,

FF

I agree with FF. You are still giving her car too much time that results in her invalid and untrue accusations, and she then pulls you into JADEing.

It is difficult to cut it off, but you need to. She will not change this behavior until you change your behavior. Be the emotional leader. Right now, you are allowing her to take the lead.

[Ventak]

Could use some guidance.

This morning, I reached out:
ME - Hope you feel better today.  You are missed.
HER - Leave me alone
ME - You are still upset, I will give you space and be here when you want to talk.
HER - I am getting a restraining order
ME - I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
ME - I will respect your need for time/space.  I've said all along it is your choice and I will respect your choices.
ME - I am very concerned for you, and will be here if you change your mind.
HER - Of course
HER - You keep threatening me [WTF?]
HER - But now i have proof its you that has been stalking me [cannot possibly be true]
ME - Turning off for an hour.
HER - Bye
HER - Tell me how you like jail

My "instinct" at this point is to just not reply and wait for her to take the next steps.  This whole thing is so surreal...

[Skip]

Have you ever seen this? A person with a bad dog who screams and swats the dog when they are frustrated with it. And the dog never improves.

Obviously the person doesn't know how to reach the dog in a meaningful way. And it's incredible that they keep doing the thing that doesn't work.

You are caught in that same place. You know the things you are doing aren't helpful and are ill advised and you keep doing them. Confronting someone's raw and internally driven emotions by expressing your own (and wanting to be heard) is "swatting the dog".

The dog want's to be understood, communicated to in a way they understand (which takes a lot of effort to figure out), and loved. Right?  She's a volatile personality which means the bad goes away as fast as it come in and its smart not to give it an extended life by holding on to it.

Going back to the dog analogy. The dog never responds to the swatting and screaming - and the dog and owner rarely stay together. The dog runs away or the owner gets rid of it.

[Skip]

Could use some guidance.

This just escalated, step by step. She is upset and is trying to get your attention to listen.

There were several points to defuse.
The first would have put it off (not the best, but not terrible tactic - maybe she will will reach baseline on her own).
The second would have let her express her frustration for the day, be heard, and start her return to baseline (I like this tactic best).
The third point (when it got to "jail") is to redirect and end on a humble note. (The situation is deteriorated, best to just be ambiguously trite and get off the line)

This morning, I reached out:
ME - Hope you feel better today.  You are missed.
HER - Leave me alone
ME - You are still upset, I will give you space and be here when you want to talk. OK, talk to you later.
 

HER - I am getting a restraining order
ME - I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
What's up.****
 

ME - I will respect your need for time/space.  I've said all along it is your choice and I will respect your choices.
ME - I am very concerned for you, and will be here if you change your mind.
HER - Of course
HER - You keep threatening me [WTF?]
That needs to stop. Can you tell me what is upsetting you? <Listen> OK, I will be sure not to do that.
 

HER - But now i have proof its you that has been stalking me [cannot possibly be true]
ME - Turning off for an hour.
HER - Bye
HER - Tell me how you like jail
Jail would not be good.

My "instinct" at this point is to just not reply and wait for her to take the next steps.  This whole thing is so surreal...

Or wait two days and contact her like nothing happened. At that point she may have completely moved on. If not politely back away.

[formflier]

  its smart not to give it an extended life by holding on to it.

This was so hard from me to understand and even harder to actually do. 

It sometimes feels like I'm "letting them get away with being bad"... (at least that's the internal monologue that I fight). 

How do these last few threads sit with you?

Best,

FF

[Skip]

She obviously vents her frustration by talking to you. She doesn't feel heard/understood, so she vents by getting you twisted up in a knot.

And you take the bait.

It's dysfunctional coping on her part. No question.

It's also dysfunctional coping when your child throws a tantrum in the middle of the grocery store.

The most important thing is to recognize dysfunctional coping and do things that psychologist suggest work when there is dysfunctional coping.

Would you try to reason with you child during a tantrum? Would you engage in a debate about why a bag of M&M's is the healthiest dietary choice? Would you be wounded when they said "I hate you".  Would you offer them $10 to stop?

Adult tantrums are much harder to understand, but the same principles apply.

[Ventak]

I know what the upset is about.  Our two year old was throwing a tantrum, she had a bad morning with her family, was tired and in pain... and so she decided that if I had not forced her away from the children for three months she would have raised them properly and our son would be the perfect angel she envisioned.  She literally told me that these are not her children.  Understand that she has been in bed an average of 20 hours a day for the past 3 years until a month before this all started happening.  So, my raising our children alone was not about her arrest and no contact orders, but about her not being a participant in their lives.

I have been very frustrated by her constant anger about this.  I went through considerable hoops to get her access to the children when the state did not want her to, and she rejected it once it was done.  I did not ask for her to be arrested and have a no contact order.  I did not ask for DHS to open a case against us for four months.  And I'm sick and tired of taking all the responsibility for some extremely horrid behavior from her.  So after her sulking for an hour and blaming me for a 2 year old being a 2 year old, I finally told her that her actions had consequences and that her being separated from her children was not my fault but hers.

A person can only take so much gaslighting...  I wish I was better at this, but I'm not yet.  But I am trying to learn.

Thanks for the advice, those make sense.

I still have no idea how to validate her feelings of anger and betrayal on these issues when she accuses me of being the abusive one, of using the kids against her, of keeping her from them, on and on.  She will not take any accountability, and I've told her I know that I hurt her and understand why she would feel betrayed.  But she is like a pitbull with a bone.. and I have been much too thoughtful based on her behavior to have to be abused further.  But then she shows progress and I become hopeful... this is very difficult.

[Ventak]

This was so hard from me to understand and even harder to actually do. 

It sometimes feels like I'm "letting them get away with being bad"... (at least that's the internal monologue that I fight). 

I think my wounds might be too raw, I don't know.  I'm fine with her getting away with being bad if she was willing to drop it.  But she keeps attacking me about blaming me for the consequences of her bad behavior and using it as a push away whenever things look promising.  Three times in the past nine days the yo-yo has gone down.  I'm reaching a breaking point, which feels tragic because I've seen her do things a few times that she's never done before because of her classes.

My brain is telling me that we need space and let her get much further along in the process...  My emotions are telling me she will abandon me if I do so.

[kells76]

Quick thought here, as there's a lot going on for you.

This stood out to me:

I still have no idea how to validate her feelings of anger and betrayal on these issues when she accuses me of being the abusive one, of using the kids against her, of keeping her from them, on and on.

The information you're getting -- a sense of being at a loss of how to validate those statements coming from her -- is, I think, accurate information. Perhaps you are at a loss of how to validate that, because there is nothing to validate.

I think formflier and Skip are also pointing to something similar -- it may be time to learn how to end your "conversations" earlier, and maybe it would be helpful to start a list or reference document of "conversation enders" -- where, if you hear it from her, it signals that she isn't in a place where she can be rational, and any further participation by you won't help either of you.

I know this is really "in the weeds" detail stuff. You can consider if it'd be a helpful addition to new things you try (such as exiting interactions with her sooner).

The list of "statements/references where I will exit the conversation" could be:

She references the color of skin of anyone in the family in a derogatory or non-positive way
She accuses you of being abusive
She says you use the kids against her
She says you are keeping the kids from her
She says the kids are not her kids (by the way, are you recording any of these calls?)
She blames you for the kids' behavior
She blames you for choices she made
She asserts things that are not real ("you're stalking me")

There are probably more specific items that could be added to that kind of list, that could serve as a reference for you when you are perhaps not sure whether to continue interacting or not.

...

Re: Skip's example: I am referencing the example of the "dog" and "dog trainer", not because I am equating one or the other of you as "a dog" in real life, or attributing any kind of positive or negative attributes of humans or animals to either of you. I'm referencing the example because of the dynamic between the two participants. I'm also not a dog trainer so bear with me if I mischaracterize anything in this broad brush analogy.

1. So one participant has more control over their choices than the other one. The "dog" acts at an instinctual, reactive level. The "human" isn't ruled by instinct, and can make choices against what instinct/reaction would want. If there is to be a change in the dynamic between the two, one participant needs to do something differently, and only the human can do that.

2. Also, it may seem "mean" or "cruel" to not give the dog what it seems to want or what pleases or calms it in the moment. Imagine, though, getting a snarling, biting dog to "settle down" by giving it treats. Sure, it eats the treats, and that kind of pleases it and calms it in the moment. But, what you are training it to do is: any time it wants to "feel good" or "get the treat", it engages in bad behavior (snarling, biting, etc).

Point 1: In order to change the dynamic between you and your W, you will need to be the "human" in the interaction, and choose different paths than you have in the past. In the past, perhaps, you both have "talked" or "conversed" for a long time together, over many days. Maybe it is time to try something new.

Point 2: in the past, as you've mentioned, she would berate you cruelly until you broke, and then she would seem to feel better. She was getting the reward (someone else feeling bad) for her bad behavior. Instead, changing your way of interaction with her is like changing a reward/treat system. If you end up trying the skill of ending conversations quickly at any red flag on your list, it will end her getting "rewarded" for breaking you down. So, if she no longer gets the "reward" feeling from being cruel to you, she may over time stop doing it. Whatever she chooses, you are taking responsibility for your half -- you stop exposing yourself to her cruelty as soon as possible, over and over.

An additional bonus to ending those conversations with her, besides changing the dynamic between you two, and limiting the cruelty that you receive, is that you will likely have more time to devote to the kids.

...

I guess that wasn't quick... oh well.

Last thought:

My brain is telling me that we need space and let her get much further along in the process...  My emotions are telling me she will abandon me if I do so.

Good work noticing the different messages you're receiving. That's a vulnerable feeling, to be afraid of being alone and abandoned. I wonder how it would go to tap into wisemind about that feeling (notice the feeling, notice if it stays or passes), and/or use some CBT type skills like analyzing the thought for truth/reality.

Hang in there.

kells76

Addendum:

Consider whether the most loving thing to do for your wife, is to not participate in allowing her to be cruel. Maybe the most loving thing you can do for her isn't to stay in those "conversations" and "listen". Maybe the most loving thing you can do for her is to shut down those openings as soon as possible... to not participate in increasing her cruelty.

[formflier]

Yes..to clarify the big point I am trying to make.  She, you and your relationship are not in a place to handle communications like you have done recently (apparently with the courts blessing)

Yes there have been good times and yes some horrible times.

It's not wise to continue trying these long conversations in hopes that it will stay good.  It won't.

I would encourage you to STOP trying to figure out how to validate accusations (or the emotions behind them) and START ending the conversation.

"I don't know what to say.  A lot has been said, I'm going to take time to reflect."   Then stop communicating for a day or two.

At least this is where I'm coming from.

    I think a lot of progress is in jeopardy by continually opening wounds.   

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Thanks all, extremely helpful in different ways.. great teamwork

I realize I have to start cutting off those conversations as soon as I hear the emotion kick in.  It is usually very obvious even to someone not closely attuned to her tone, her accent is almost non-existent until she becomes emotional.  Kells had a line in another thread about getting some juice.  I loved this idea...  She hates "psychology mumbo jumbo" so saying that I think "emotions are rising" or that "we are getting emotional" is a small trigger.  Leaving the conversation to get some juice or some other errand that needs running will give me a reason to stop the conversation and let her cool down.

And I get the stopping so much conversation... It's just so difficult.  I want to reconcile and she is intermittently wanting to divorce, usually when angry or upset.  Or at least she says she is.  But I do understand the need and the logic behind it.

The lashing out being a means of her being hurt and my not listening really resonated.   So much I need to learn on this approach, but it helped me focus. 

The RO always allowed video chatting, but her criminal judge made vague statements about it so we didn't for three months.  When I changed the RO to allow unsupervised visitation three days a week for a few hours, the judge clarified that the original RO was meant to allow non-physical communication and specifically stated it so there was no confusion.

[formflier]

So..she didn't solve the issue about getting someone to supervise?  You solved it for her?

Best,

FF