I might have gone too far this time...

[Skip]

Don't worry about validation right now. Worry about invalidation.

Watch this video. It will help:
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

She hates "psychology mumbo jumbo" so saying that I think "emotions are rising" or that "we are getting emotional"...

Everyone hates psychology mumbo jumbo. Use what you learn her to make smart choices. But don't be Dr. Test-tube. This is how it sounds when we do that.

Hey, you are the problem here. You are acting mentally ill. The experts call it "you are unreasonable" disease. I can see that because I'm not the problem. I am not mentally ill. But I'm superior to you and will deal with your brokenness because I am good. Blah blah...

Better to keep it a level playing field.

I realize I have to start cutting off those conversations as soon as I hear the emotion kick in .. // .. Kells had a line in another thread about getting some juice.

Yes. When you see the freight train coming down the track, that is your cue.  But think of the words "exit with dignity". Don't burn her (or yourself). Don't allow it feel like punishment or retribution. Don't invalidate her (or yourself). Make it non-judgemental. Neutral.

If 80% of the discussion are good, cut the talk time to 70%. If 50% of the discussion are good, cut the talk time to 35%. Don't ride every conversation to exhaustion... its important to exit at high points. They will then incubate before the next call.

Pre-plan your graceful exits so you have them when you need them...
OMG, the dog just vomited on the carpet...
My neighbor is at the door, I promised to help him move a piece of furniture today...
Are you there? I can't hear you? Hello <click, turn off phone>
Kids are fighting...
Gotta haircut appointment, need to run...
My mom is on the other line, she says its important...

I want to reconcile and she is intermittently wanting to divorce, usually when angry or upset.  Or at least she says she is.  But I do understand the need and the logic behind it.

Don't swarm her. Don't love bomb. Don't make unreciprocated promises of unconditional love. You are doing that. It will feel needy, weak. Man up.This is really important. [Hard to say to you, sorry, but very important to say it].

Give the reconciliation room to breathe. Let her set the tempo on the love and commitment comments. Don't be the one initiating all the time (or even 50% of the time - shoot for 25%). If she is not saying it - then  be cool and wait. It will take time for the tempo to change/shift, but she can't move toward you if you sucking up all the air.

The lashing out being a means of her being hurt and my not listening really resonated.  So much I need to learn on this approach, but it helped me focus.  

Yes, let her speak and show her you are listening by asking questions to better understand. Resist debating what she says or giving long responses. Don't invalidate.

Give the reconciliation room to breathe. Less is more.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ventak]

Thought I mentioned that at the time.. but I consulted the DHS agent, my family law attorney and my psychiatrist.  All felt it was in the best interest of the twins to get unsupervised visits with their mom, assuming it was safe.  Family doctor said to ease her into further access which I am doing.  Her niece had supervised all the visitations and said she did very well with them.  The report from her therapist and DV classes to the judge was positive at her hearing.  She is back on anxiety/anti-depressant medication.

She did go a couple weeks without seeing them because she didn't solve her problem.  So, in a way I did solve it for her ultimately, but I felt that it was the right thing to do for our children.  S2 has improved incredibly with his communication, which could be coincidence as he was showing signs right before, but I do think he has done well with seeing his mother more.  D2's autism is more severe than S2 and lives in her own world so it is difficult to tell the impact.

There is a fine line between protection and using them to punish her that I wrestle with daily, and try to make sure that not only my intentions but my actions are in the best interest of all of us.

[Skip]

It sounds like you did the right thing for everyone.   

[Ventak]

Great advice Skip, thanks.

Don't swarm her. Don't love bomb. Don't make unreciprocated promises of unconditional love. You are doing that. It will feel needy, weak. Man up.This is really important. [Hard to say to you, sorry, but very important to say it].

Give the reconciliation room to breathe. Let her set the tempo on the love and commitment comments. Don't be the one initiating all the time (or even 50% of the time - shoot for 25%). If she is not saying it - then  be cool and wait. It will take time for the tempo to change/shift, but she can't move toward you if you sucking up all the air.

Can you help me understand the part above.  I've been working hard at making her make her own decisions and following the pace that she sets.  On what you call love bombing, I have been following her lead, but have been tracking her actions/words for leads.  For instance, if she starts talking about what we are doing together as a family a year from now I take that as a cue that she is feeling like staying together and I will say something loving.  When she is being technical and distant I keep everything neutral. 

The times that I don't is when she is lashing out and claiming that I am using her in some way and don't actually care for her.  I take that as a desperate plea for validation of my feelings for her.  At least historically that has been the case.

She has never taken the lead on initiating through words, her initiating has always been non-verbal and does take some "guess work" on my part.  A typical example of this is that we would have a fight, I check in on her every once in a while and when she starts talking I will ask if she wants me to stay or go and she will say "do what you want".  Eventually she will grab my hand and wrap herself in my arms.  But she almost never initiates anything verbally... which makes it more difficult to gauge where she is over the phone.

[GaGrl]

As to what Skip is describing...

When she describes a family activity in the future, that is something you can validate -- "Yes, it's nice to think about is doing something as a family." You don't have to go overboard with it; just acknowledge her feelings are in a good place.

When she begins blaming you, or telling you how YOU feel or accusing you of not loving her -- when you know your own feelings, that is a situation in which you cannot validate the invalid. So telling her you do love her is arguing/JADEing with her feelings at the moment, and it takes the conversation no where but down.I

When you start to hear blaming, negative comments, that is when you need to exit the conversation -- not double-down on the love assurances.

[Ventak]

When you start to hear blaming, negative comments, that is when you need to exit the conversation -- not double-down on the love assurances.

I understand.  Hard to reconfigure 59 years of training... but I do get it now.  Even the positive is arguing/defending.  Hadn't seen it through that prism.

[Skip]

Nothing changes without changes. If you keep doing what you were doing, you will get the same result.

The "invalidation" video is eye opening.

Just as an exercise lets break down your last discussion with her:

ME - Hope you feel better today.  You are missed. HER - Leave me alone

Validating:  Ok, we can talk later.
Reason: It shows (not tells her) that you hear her and respect her feelings. It also leaves it to her to self sooth, see that she was unreasonable (which is important), and to adjust.

Invalidating: You are still upset, I will give you space and be here when you want to talk.
Reason: You basically say, wife, your feelings right now are the invalid reaction to emotions you have failed to control according to Dr Test tube. I will compensate for your inability to manage your emotions because, unlike you, I'm in control of mine. I will give you space (note I ignored your request and am not giving you space and will probably call you before you call me).

Also, why the love bomb at the opening. It feels like you are fishing for a response like "I miss you too".

She then says:

HER - I am getting a restraining order (in other words - LEAVE ME ALONE RIGHT NOW!)

Validating:  Ok, bye.
Reason: It shows (not tells her) that you hear her and respect her.

Invalidating:  I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
Reason: You are not hearing her plea to be left alone - or giving her space - rather you are debating her hyperbole. She can't and doesn't want a restraining order - she is reacting to you not respecting her.

Do you see that?

No doubt "leave me alone" is insulting to you and non-constructive. It would be to me too. When people are being a jerk, it is often constructive to be quiet so they can hear themselves. If you got off the phone right away and waited for her to call back, she would have had room to process her insulting and non-constructive comment.

This is what we mean by "let it breathe".

[Ventak]

HER - I am getting a restraining order (in other words - LEAVE ME ALONE RIGHT NOW!)

Validating:  Ok, bye.
Reason: It shows (not tells her) that you hear her and respect her.

Invalidating:  I would advise against that, from a legal perspective.
Reason: You are not hearing her plea to be left alone - or giving her space - rather you are debating her hyperbole. She can't and doesn't want a restraining order - she is reacting to you not respecting her.

Do you see that?

This is one of the areas where autism and BPD relationships have problems.  It is very difficult for me not to take the words as very literal and find the actual intent or hidden meaning.  I can train myself, but my brain will always process the words initially as exactly as stated.  The classic example I use is when someone says "how are you doing", my brain will go through my entire day to that point and do a complete analysis of how I am doing, but I've trained myself to immediately respond "Doing Great! How are you?".  I'm effective about 80% of the time.

This is where getting direct feedback on actual conversations is invaluable for me.

[formflier]

This is where getting direct feedback on actual conversations is invaluable for me.

Exactly!  Very valuable. 

How do you do with "checklist mentality"?  I'm retired Naval Aviator and "checklists" and "if/then" type axioms has been very helpful at keeping me out of trouble and avoiding INVALIDATION. 

Please understand that 1 unit of invalidation does NOT equal 1 unit of validation.  I think most people believe invalidation is at least a factor of 10 more important.

How does that sit with you?

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

I'm seeing a couple of new ways I'm invalidating, and been processing all morning how to break those bad habits.

My brain (like most autistics) is very rule driven.  Once a rule has been "set" it takes an act of god to ignore it.

I suspect a checklist and especially an if/then would be very useful.  Can you give some more detail?  I work much better with examples than abstractions.  Great at geometry, suck at calculus ;)

[formflier]

OK...while I don't have any experience with autism I do have experience teaching people checklists and if/then.

Not sure if your "imagination" helps you with this...but maybe try on that you are training to be smooth talking guy on the radio, whenever it's time for you to communicate with your wife.

You too can sound cool on the radio like these guys!

Notice in all the radio calls you don't hear any "ummms and ahhhaaas" and any of that.

All these guys were taught to "think, press..talk" (and that order is incredibly important).

Most people "press...think...talk.." when they are speaking in real life because there is not so much of a need to keep the airwaves open and uncluttered.

Think:  Figure out what you should and should not say (get a plan)

Press:  Key the mike button and in your case start speaking or typing out a text

Talk:  Actually do the communicating, less is more.

So..by using the above as an axiom, you can deduce that if you are still thinking you should not move forward to "press" or "talk".

Now...you and I both know that a pwBPD can throw you curveballs.  I'm still shocked and amazed by the crazy that sometimes come out.

So...you need to have some safe things to say, that you have practiced so you can still sound "smooth" and "empathetic"   (reference back Skips comments on letting things breathe). 

"Babe..I need a few minutes to think, let me call you back in 10 minutes"

You can also try the,  "Hey..looks like (fill in name of kiddo) needs something, let me call you back after I handle this."

Give YOURSELF room to breathe and think and work checklists. 

Now..let's start the checklist.

1.  Am I suggesting how she feels?  (if so..don't)
2.  Am I trying to communicate how I feel?  (if so..don't)
3.  Am I trying to get her to "see the light"?  (if so..don't)


Note..avoiding invalidation is often as simple as gracefully saying you need a moment, or perhaps just keeping quiet.

At least in my world...FF keeping his mouth shut usually works out well. 

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

May I ask what you’re getting from your desire to speak with her?

From what you’ve quoted, it seems like the conversation is civil for a few moments, then she gets triggered and it goes off the rails.

You try to appease her, or identify her emotion, and that further triggers her, which triggers you, and then you keep doing the same until she explodes.

Does that about describe the process?

[Ventak]

May I ask what you’re getting from your desire to speak with her?

From what you’ve quoted, it seems like the conversation is civil for a few moments, then she gets triggered and it goes off the rails.

You try to appease her, or identify her emotion, and that further triggers her, which triggers you, and then you keep doing the same until she explodes.

Does that about describe the process?

The cycle is correct, but the in-between cycle is missing.  We historically go 2-6 weeks of being best friends, having great conversation, lots of laughs.. then meltdown for 1-3 days.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  For a while it went to the meltdowns would last 30 minutes to 4 hours which was tremendous improvement from her, and me learning to walk away before things got too bad.  Then she stopped her meds and steadily declined into rage and violence.

Now she is back on her meds (different, but seem to be working) and we just got through a 3 week cycle of total goodness and scores of hours of great conversation.  Recently there have been 3 meltdowns in the past 5 days.  Multiple factors could be in play, in that she is in her 3rd week of a very physically demanding job working 50-60 hours a week.  This after getting nearly zero exercise for 3 years, so she is tired and in pain.  Also our 2.5 year old has been acting like a 2.5 year old for much of that time period, which she is not used to as she hasn't been alone with him since he was a baby and has had supervised visits for the past 4 months and is getting to know him.  He was non-verbal when she left us at the beginning of March.  Most likely a combination of those two and other stressors.

I'm learning that some of the things that I'm trying to do to "make things better" are actually making things worse.

Skip was spot on when he said that she was telling me very loudly that she was hurt and that I wasn't listening to her.  FF seems to be on the right track with the less is more and everyone with the disconnect early strategy.  Things have been back to "good" for the past couple days, and I've cut back talk time by about a factor of 10.  She's been venting about work and I'm practicing some of the techniques everyone is sharing with those conversations, and seem to be getting very positive results so far.  Much easier to keep focus when it isn't during a personal attack.

I can see where it would seem that way.. but the good times don't generally get me here bewildered and confused :D

[Ventak]

So...you need to have some safe things to say, that you have practiced so you can still sound "smooth" and "empathetic"   (reference back Skips comments on letting things breathe). 

Now..let's start the checklist.

1.  Am I suggesting how she feels?  (if so..don't)
2.  Am I trying to communicate how I feel?  (if so..don't)
3.  Am I trying to get her to "see the light"?  (if so..don't)

Note..avoiding invalidation is often as simple as gracefully saying you need a moment, or perhaps just keeping quiet.

This particularly resonates.  I've been good about not discussing mental health or differing memories... I think this is the next layer of the onion.

My "sticking points" is I still don't know how to respond to her demands for divorce which she doesn't mean but keeps telling me she has been asking for for years.  My pointing out that she first asked me two weeks after our wedding is probably not my best strategy... and that she always changes her mind after she has calmed down.

The other one I can't wrap my brain around is dealing with her accusations of abuse.  She is convinced that I'm physically abusive and need help.  I'm not certain how her classes are going but I was extremely disappointed to read the description this weekend.  It specifically states that the DV classes for women are different because women so often are arrested for DV because they are abused and when they finally defend themselves they are the one arrested.  I'm not kidding.  But I have no words when she accuses me of that or the hacking into her accounts.

[formflier]

OK..demands for divorce.

First of all..think about the truth. 

Does she need to communicate with you to get a divorce?  Do you need to communicate with her to get a divorce?  (hint...the answer has 2 letters and starts with N! )


So..here is something for the group to discuss and you to try on in private for a while, before actually using it.


her:  blah blah blah...give me a divorce..blah blah blah

you:  I won't discuss that with you.   Anything else we can talk about at the moment?

her:  blah blah divorce, anger management and witches on broomsticks...blah blah"

you:  Have a good evening, looking forward to our next chat at (insert time)


Note:  No SET, no validation..no tricks..just not going to do it.  You did give her 1 option and if she chooses to talk about something pleasant..hang with the conversation.  If she brings up divorce a short time later then say the last line and exit.

Less is more.  You are not trying to fix anything.  You ARE trying to communicate to her that this dysfunctional tool she has been using will no longer work.  Over to her how long she tries.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

her:  blah blah blah...give me a divorce..blah blah blah

you:  I won't discuss that with you.   Anything else we can talk about at the moment?

her:  blah blah divorce, anger management and witches on broomsticks...blah blah"

you:  Have a good evening, looking forward to our next chat at (insert time)


Note:  No SET, no validation..no tricks..just not going to do it.  You did give her 1 option and if she chooses to talk about something pleasant..hang with the conversation.  If she brings up divorce a short time later then say the last line and exit.

Just a slightly different take.

Agree with rewarding good behavior and discouraging bad behavior.

I often say to do these things with grace. The less obvious, the more effective.

Alternative example:

her:  blah blah blah...give me a divorce..blah blah blah

you:  I'm at the store and I just need to know if we need eggs. We can talk about the other stuff later.

She throws divorce at you take it literally and because it scares you to death. If she wants you to fall out of a chair at a restaurant, she just has to say "divorce". If you don't show anymore fear, she will likely dial it down. Be brave. Don't let it be a "button to push".

[Ventak]

And the hits just keep on rolling...

After the requisite three good days... She was in a bad mood so I just let her stew with minimal to no conversation.  I pick up the kids a little early and she says that I need to delete all the videos and images of stuff that I have of her (meaning the stuff used in court, etc..)  I start to comply (it's all backed up multiple spots) and she says go to recents.  I just took about 20 screen shots of our whatsapp conversation because she put it in "delete in 7 days mode".  She knows that I keep images of conversations where she is upset.  I go over them with my psychiatrist, and occasionally use it to show her that she actually did say something.  That is effective about 60% of the time.  I did remind her that I've told her that and that she knew I did it for that reason.  She said I used them in court, which is true.  She said this is why it's over between us and why she will never trust me.

I stopped the conversation and told her I was going to leave.  I asked her if she wanted me to come back in 10 minutes for the kids or take them with me now.

She started telling me "You asked me what I want, what I want is..."  I interrupted and told her that I was leaving and asked if she wanted me to come back in 10 minutes or take the kids with me now.  She said take the kids and I did.

When I arrived home I held myself back from forwarding the pictures of the messages she sent me telling me that I was going to jail, that I would be fired, that I was using work technology to hack into her and she had proof.  I mean, who wouldn't archive those messages and the rage before and after in case she ever followed through with her threats.  I know she did go to the local police and try to get me, my daughter and son in law arrested four months ago.  If she does so again, I would need that "in court" to defend myself... just as I had to defend myself against the restraining order she put against me.

So basically, she "caught" me doing something she knows I do and I've never hidden from her nor has she asked me to stop.  The thing I did was necessary to defend myself against her threats, in addition to showing her and my psychiatrist.  And now she has switched for the fourth time in 10 days.  She completely violated my privacy by demanding to see my phone.  And this is somehow proof of my untrustworthiness.

My plan is to sit on the sidelines until she reaches out, then do less is more and see how it works.

It feels like even when I do everything right she finds a way down the rabbit hole... :'(

Thoughts?

[Ventak]

I just realized that both Sunday and Wednesday meltdowns were over minor things not really related to anything.  But she did get nasty text messages from her niece, who was the last family member being nice to her both mornings.  That and not a lot of sleep the night before.

Beginning to think that I'm her lightning rod for unspent destructive energy.

[Ventak]

Got a full text blast this morning:

You are neglecting the kids, I'm going to have to go through DHS to get their medical needs met since I don't have a say (I have temporary legal custody through the RO).

Missing work today because I can't lift, which means I can't lift kids and won't be picking them up (Botox, for migraines, but she didn't have concerns about that yesterday pre-meltdown).

"A message for your file collection... I want a divorce.  Should I group text all our family so they know it is real?"

I haven't responded.  I can't think up anything that wouldn't be invalidating.  Even "I hear you" or "I understand" seems more likely to be taken as sarcastic or psycho-babble so I assume this is a less is more situation that will lead to an extinction burst.

[Skip]

Beginning to think that I'm her lightning rod for unspent destructive energy.

That happens in many relationships - not just BPD.  But yes, you are the punch clown and today she is letting off steam...


                         Ventak

Have you read our article Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-4-cols

So you could translate her comments as she intended them (drama) which is...

blah, blah blah , you're a bad parent, hope that stings
blah, blah blah , I'm hurting and nobody cares
blah, blah, blah, I'm pushing your rawest button, so you can feel as bad as I do.

Or you translate them like a Karpman drama ninja which is, what would she be saying if she wasn't being such a b_t_h this morning.

blah, blah blah, it's killing me that the state is treating me like a threat to my own children.
blah, blah blah, I'm going to martyr myself by not seeing them
blah, blah blah, ahhhhhh...

Respond to the ninja version.

The children are disappointed that they won't see you today, but they understand.

Have the kids draw a get well card and text her a photo.

Then forget about it.

[babyducks]

Ventak -

my experience might not be helpful to you while you experience yours but here it is.

my then partner now EX and I had a full mental health support team working to help us keep things more level.   2 psychologists, 1 psychiatrist,  1 mental health nurse.

whenever any of them inquired if my partner self harmed I always said no.   I associated self harm with cutting, or skin picking.    something of that nature.

it took a long time but eventually it clicked in my head that my partner used me to self harm.   I was her weapon of choice.    it really didn't have a lot to do with me,... I was just the tool she used to offload her negative emotions.    so she would push on me,  bait me, goad me.     I can honestly say no matter how I replied she could flip it into 'see you don't really love me'   or 'see its all your fault - you hurt me'.

now of course there were times I did actually hurt her.   not intentionally to be sure.     but there were also many more times I was just a bystander in a drama that I had nothing to do with.    

Missing work today because I can't lift, which means I can't lift kids and won't be picking them up (Botox, for migraines, but she didn't have concerns about that yesterday pre-meltdown).

 

this is the only part I would consider replying to...   just an acknowledgement of the change in schedule.    BIFF -  brief, informative, firm, friendly.    okay I will let the kids know about the change in schedule...

'ducks

[Skip]

Just to keep all these comments in perspective...

I'm making relationship rebuilding suggestions...
Baby ducks is making relationship neutral "don't reward drama" suggestions...
Formflier is making zero tolerance suggestions... don't step over my boundaries.

There is value in all of these approaches (tools) and they can be used at different times for different things.

[formflier]

There is immense value in getting your boundary across and held with the minimum amount of force.  

There is little value in expending energy (your own energy) to communicate and hold a boundary, and then have the boundary crumble.  In fact, reasonable arguments can be made this would embolden someone to "crash other boundaries".

So...there is the pickle.  How to find "the sweet spot"?

I have a number of medical issues that leave me "spent" towards the end of the day and has an unfortunate affect of making it harder for me to deal with "nuance".  So lots of my boundary stuff just come down along the lines of "no tolerance".

Best,

FF

[Ventak]

Things have been moving along...  the advice given by FF, Cat and Skip have given amazing results.  My transition from trying to validate to focusing on not invalidating has had huge dividends.  Our communication is greatly improved, and I've been able to quickly de-escalate conversations.  In many ways things are better than they have ever been, yet she has a lot of (unjustified) anger based off of distorted memories which crops up every time she starts feeling good about us (every 3-7 days).  The no-contact order will be reviewed in about a week, which will make things interesting.

She has been doing an amazing job with the twins, who have both had a development leap since she started spending time with them.  It is so encouraging that she is finally active with them, I think this whole mess provided a motivation that was needed...  Our S2 has gone from 3 words total to about 200 in the past couple months, and our D2 has started talking finally.  She went from only using 1 word, to counting from 1 to 10 in one day... remarkable.

This community has had an immeasurably positive impact on me and my entire family.  I can never thank you all enough.