BPDFamily.com

Several weeks ago my uBPDw started seeing a "counselor".  The first time she went she sort of lied -- told me her appointment was for "women's issues" which I think most would take as a trip to an OBGYN.  Suspecting this was not the case, I mentioned a couple of times afterward to put the medical bill in the tax folder for next year and she got real uncomfortable.  Two weeks later she just came out and told me that I needed to watch the kids so she could go to this "counselor".  

It's "counselor" in quotes because I now know who this is, looked them up, and they have a disclaimer on their site that says exactly, "****** is not a 'counseling' organization."  This person terms themselves a "prayer minister".  I have no issue with prayer, believe in it just fine, but do not agree with this person's (or my uBPDw's) belief in how it works.  That is another thing on her gripe list -- I respectfully disagree but don't interfere, yet she tells me that I have to change my beliefs on the subject or whatever bad happens is my fault.  Nothing new there so far as this disorder goes, I suppose.  

She's probably learning some good things there but, without the BPD angle being addressed, I have to think this is sweeping a lot of stuff under the rug that is going to come out bigtime later.

My other concern is she suddenly has five new self-help books, presumably from this place, and is reading all of them at once.  This is in addition to the pretty substantial collection that she has already amassed over a period of years.  They are scattered everywhere and are all marked-up.  All of the books are written to a healthy functioning reader that is living with someone that is disordered.  She has underlined things that paint the partner black when really, in this case, it's an exact description of the person reading it (almost everything she underlines are things that reinforce her own projections).

This strikes me as a recipe for disaster.  For the time being she has been more composed and not yelling at the kids, which is a plus, but I am under no illusion that this will last.  Especially when she leaves up a messenger window on the computer telling a friend that she is going to this place and, if the holy spirit doesn't bonk Couper over the head and fix me, there is no hope.  Since before I came along, her take on prayer is that she tells God what she wants... and if she doesn't get it, she hates Him.  ("Hate" being her very own word.)  Just to clarify, I pray for God's will and understanding believing that I get the former and only sometimes get the latter.  At the very least, if not now, then hopefully eventually.  I guess the difference would be that I have a level of acceptance for whatever comes down the pike and she is just looking for control.  I only add that to paint the picture.

This was partly to vent, but also, does anyone care to look into their crystal ball and hazard a guess as to what is coming months down the road when I'm still consistent-me and no bonking took place?  Does anyone here have a partner that has gone the "prayer minister" route?

All this came about because of the new church she has fallen in with.  Aside from having doctrinal issues that are 180 out of phase with my long-held beliefs (and formerly hers), she has dispensed her narrative of things at home with these people and they have taken it as red meat.  Now I'm the bad guy, she's the victim, and I'm living in a fish bowl again.  For awhile I was going just to get familiar with the place but, between those two things, I have stopped and have no intention of going back.        

  

 

I could see why you would be concerned. Most likely she will go there put a show of how changed she is now then blame you for everything. Unfortunately I don’t see how you can change the outcome. BPDs are like actors except in real life, it’s a play she wrote and she will see it to the end.

 Just uphold your boundaries and play along. I don’t know what else you can do.

Thanks NotAHero.  I don't expect to be able to change anything.  I guess what I was wondering is -- am I on the right track thinking this is essentially like bottling things up that are eventually going to explode in a magnificent way when she doesn't get the outcome she wants?

I suppose I already know the answer, but was thinking maybe somebody else had been thorough something similar and could give me a heads-up about what to expect.

Churches and religions can be a nasty drug for people with disorders, as they can take it so seriously and devotedly, esp. if they find likeminded individuals there, as they often do. And then mask their true self and vulnerabilities, pumping some fragile ego that exists only with that group of people.

On a lighter note, she can be at peace there so maybe it could be soothing for her. But if you are not playing that game, yeah it could provoke anger as "you just dont understand".

I forget who it was, but there was a survivor of a POW camp that said there were two basic types -- the ones that tried to put one foot in front of the other and get through each day without the promise of any reward, and the ones that swung from one vine to the next believing, "We'll be out by Thanksgiving.  We'll be out by Christmas." and each time some benchmark passed without their release, it got harder to retain that faith until the next one.  The former tended to survive and the latter did not.

I see the group that my uBPDw has gravitated toward as being the latter.  Rather than ask for wisdom and put in the work, the new group says pray hard enough and you're entitled to a miracle.  Every week revival is coming, a miracle is coming, someone is going to wave a magic wand and make all your troubles go away.  It doesn't matter that this movement can't point to anything in the last 150 years happening like that.  Even though it didn't happen for all the generations before, now it's going to happen for this one.

A few weeks ago I Googled something like, "do people with mental health issues gravitate toward certain denominations" and apparently it has been somewhat studied and they do and they tend to go where my uBPDw has gone.  I know she has at least one expectation (the bonking I mentioned) and probably several more.  If something derails that, or I did something like serve her divorce papers, I could envision a meltdown of epic proportions that maybe wouldn't have been quite so bad had she not gone down this road.   

I knew an old couple when I lived in Brooklyn NYC in the 1970's-1980's.  Both were concentration camp survivors, for their religion.  Soon after their marriage they were separated for 9 years, he to Dachau and Mauthausen, her to Ravensbrück, wearing purple triangles.  They did not expect miracles but trusted in their faith and were rewarded.  They were the nicest, sanest, most loving couple, always with smiles on their faces.

Me?  I recall (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=291045.msg12738015#msg12738015) one visit of our preschooler with his pediatrician.  The doctor saw the discord and recommended to provide names and numbers of some local counselors to my then-spouse.

Right on, right on.

I'd also like to add that your ability to recall your prior posts is rather remarkable.

I've archived my old posts... and I also make good use of the Search Threads function online for keywords on the menu bar above which goes back as far as 2013.

On my computer programmer resume I list my obsession with details and detective skills as both a positive and a negative.  With a bad heart and employers wanting to select youth over experience, I've resigned myself to being more or less retired.

Ah, a programmer.  I am not surprised!

If retirement means it gives you the time to help here, I am very grateful for that.  You have been very generous to share your experiences.

I have a little sticky note on my computer desk that I see when I work that says:

Hope in God for who He is, not for what He will do for you.

Wools

In my ACA ( includes dysfunction) group where we examine the messages we learned as kids, ( to gain new and better ones) there's discussion on religion. While the idea of God is abstract, we humans have a relationship with God on our human level. If someone has disordered relationships, then it makes sense they can have a disordered relationship with God. Also our God concept matures as we do. We can only perceive God through our own development. So for some people who grew up with disordered parents, their God concept might be influenced by that, and so they need to work on a more personal one for them.

With BPD, there's shame, denial and projection. My guess is that this group provides some validation for your wife and also she projects her views on to you. It would be difficult for her to consider she might have issues. If you consider the Karpman triangle, I think pwBPD tend to take victim perspective. In this situation - the religious group and God are the rescuers, and you, the persecutor.

I am also in favor of religion and prayer, but for any personal change to happen, we need to be able to perceive our own shortcomings and mistakes, not from a position of shame or being flawed, but that we are humans trying to do better, and ask God for help with this. I don't see how this can happen if someone has so much internal shame that they are unable to do this.

The group you mention seems to present a "black and white" view of religion but much about spirituality is not  defined. There's an unknown and a mystery to that and uncertainty is scary. I also think pwBPD look at external things to manage their internal feelings. If these don't work, they can lose interest. I think at this point, she's going to be involved in what she chooses so there's not much you can do to change that. If you oppose it, it may just add fuel to the issues.

This is exactly correct.  I would term them gullible or, at the very least, almost completely lacking in skepticism.  Many of them, including uBPDw, fell head over heels for a well-known absurd conspiracy theory that peaked in 2020 and then vanished last year yet still chase that carrot.
   


This is exactly correct, too.  She only knows how to point fingers and blame.  Everyone else is supposed to have the introspection that she does not.  Worse yet, the people aiding her may perceive her as seeking personal change, and now they are reinforcing her narrative without knowing the lies they are being told.  She has always gravitated to those that take whatever she says at face value and shuns anyone that might question her the least little bit.




Let me say I have no intention of trying to change anything about what she's doing, nor air my skepticism of it.  I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around what is potentially coming so I can maybe utilize it as a positive rather than a negative.

I've been thinking about this a lot today and wondering what is going to be the outcome when for weeks she has been pouring coal on the fire and yet I have still not been hit by a bolt of lightning. 

1. I doubt she'll lose interest.  She has a new audience.  In the past she would just get angry and blame God, but not lose interest like she took off in search of something new.

2. This time is different because of the influence from the outside.  As a group, they already sort of view themselves as having the ability to force change (whereas I'm a "will"-type person).  From studying them, I think what is going to happen is they are not going to admit defeat.  I think they are going to blame just as she would blame when she was working alone.  The blame is going to be on me despite the fact that I'm not at all informed by them of their intent.  They can't say God failed, they can't say they failed because they have done everything right -- I think they're going to tell her that I'm godless because I didn't respond to all of their unspoken efforts and magic pixie dust.  Perhaps they will tell her that she no longer has any duty to me, which I think would tickle her ears... and perhaps mine.

So, that leaves me wondering (and maybe hoping).  After they try everything and it has failed, I'm wondering if they are going to encourage her to leave.  In one sense, I might welcome that -- unless they screw with my kids.  If they tell her to go because I'm hopeless and I time it right, that might actually prevent her from going to war.  Maybe I will be the thing in which she loses interest because they will continue to nurture her distorted view of the world whereas I do not.  Maybe wishful thinking.  She'll need a support network anyway, so maybe it's not all bad.  My name is already dirt whether I stay or leave.

Apologies for any rambling thoughts.  It kind of evolved as I went along.

   

So, I kinda had this happen to me when I left. He pretty quickly went to a pastor who was an acquaintance from church. I don't even know what the whole story is that he fed to them, just something about how it was so unlike like me.
So the pastor and his wife pushed pretty hard to meet with me. That was good and bad. Obviously, I was at fault for being a doormat but they did come to the decision that we needed to be seperated. It was still hyperspirtual and they didn't want me to put much importance on the need for therapy. I did also stop communication with this pastor because he was still a big sympathizer with my H. I think its good he has some people around him, I have already said what I needed to say to them and I believe they will never "get it".

What you are describing sounds frustrating. I don't know how you can keep a straight mind in the midst of it.  I think you are being wise to just let her do what she wants to do with it and let it play out as long as everybody is safe. And it sounds like you are doing a great job holding on to the truth. So I would just encourage you to keep that calmness as you navigate this.

Thanks for sharing that with me.  Lots of parallels here and I think you offer a bit of a crystal ball.  I went through some of your past posts and what I have played out in my head seems to have already been a reality in your life.  My gut tells me that they are going to come to me directly at some point just as they did with you.  I have debated saying something like, "Have you ever considered there is a personality disorder involved here and that she is playing you?", but as was mentioned with the triangle stuff above, I suspect if I did that they are going to turn around and tell her what I said, which would be the same as me telling her directly that she has a personality disorder, which we also know is a big no-no.  On top of that, even when people do know, nobody wants to admit that they have been played.  She has already roped-in these people.  They are not neutral and I cannot trust them to hold anything in confidence.  I don't even think they have a legal obligation to in their capacity.  They are just ratchet-jawed busybodies, not professionals.



Lots of practice.  Years of experience knowing that regardless of what she tells me, she's just going to do what she wants anyway.  I've been stabbed in he back so many times that there isn't room for another knife.  Since being duped on that whole marriage counseling thing, I simply refuse to play in her sandbox anymore.

Thank you for the encouragement.  I've read where you are struggling with the overtures being made to you.  I'm pretty cynical about my whole situation at this point and I don't want that to rub off on you if there is hope, but I would encourage you to inventory all these past instances of being brought roses and how often it equaled a genuine change of heart.  I have found the best way to stay grounded is not to look at the immediate moment, but the big picture.   

Hi again, Couper,


I was afraid of this happening at our home church after I left DH. I played the scenario out in my mind more than once. In the end it never happened, largely because they already knew who DH was. All the while my guard was up whenever I saw someone from there, because I expected to be asked questions. I was pleasantly surprised to actually be supported by the elders at our church. It doesn't sound at all like what is happening in your situation, and I'm sorry. So often the church leaders assume without knowing what is really going on.

I did determine that if I was asked to speak with the church leaders, I would invite my T to come along so that I wouldn't be alone. Those who have walked with me in my journey to healing are my best advocates, and they know the other side of the story. Is there anyone who could go with you, or a T perhaps if you are/get established with one?

Are you familiar with JADE (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0) and BIFF (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=134124.0)? If someone has already posted the info for you, I apologize for having repeated it. The tools we learn here at BPDfamily apply not only to our marriage/romantic relationships, but they also give us valuable tools to use in the workplace, church, friendships, or wherever we find a need to communicate.

Wools

The way you phrased this literally made me lol.

The advice you gave me is welcomed and don't worry I am plenty cynical as well. Thank you.

Sounds like a perfect case of triangulation! It has the special advantage of bringing God into it, as your W can imagine Him on her side, and then her warm feelings of acceptance confirm that she's right. As far as the humans in her church go, it sounds like they have from the very beginning put themselves forward as rescuers. By now they have doubtless heard so much about how evil you are and how long-suffering your W has been, and are so invested in their rescuer role that they will never be able to be objective when you try to tell them your side.

It is tough because you get a bad rep that can interfere with your other relationships. I've had experience with that with my ex (not my present W--I confess to being a repeat offender when it comes to marrying into BPD). Sadly, there's little you can do about it, though I've found that time sometimes heals these problems. People do get tired of hearing a pwBPD's complaints. This is very likely an "Accept the things I cannot change" situation.

Very astute advice from alterK.

I love the “repeat offender” remark about being twice married to a pwBPD—Me too! I’m stealing that!   *) lol

Having one's reputation besmirched is an unfortunately common occurrence with a disgruntled BPD partner.

I had a funny experience when getting to know a woman in a therapy group who suddenly realized who I was, based upon what she’d heard from my ex- husband. She previously had a positive impression about me based upon some hours spent together. When she put two and two together and realized that I was this horrible person that her coworker friend and my ex had talked about, her face darkened. Then, she considered her own interaction with me and said, “I’m going to have to rethink what I’ve heard.”

Some weeks later, when my ex had broken up with her friend, she told me that he was trash talking her too, just like he had done with me.

Yes and yes and no need to apologize because maybe it will be new to someone else reading along.

Excellent tools and I was already unknowingly using them before coming here both at home and in business.  Aside from not getting drug into the mud verbally with people, I have long been especially cautious about pointless battles in electronic format.  I don't have the time for it and I don't want to hand anybody something they can use to beat me over the head with later.

Off-site I have been discussing one of the self-help books I mentioned in the beginning.  This morning I was speed-reading through it trying to give it a fair assessment and reading all the things she has underlined.  A detailed rundown would be long to post, but I will say I feel this particular book is absolutely misprescribed.  The context is I'm a "perpetrator" and she is a regular-functioning person that's purely the victim of an abusive partner (something that has always tickled her ears).  At the end of the book this is the last thing she underlined:

"An emotionally battered woman's hysterical efforts to be heard are often misdiagnosed as bipolar illness, borderline personality disorder, or worse."

I'll let those of you at home dissect the implications of that statement.  Interesting what you mentioned above -- in my offline conversation I referred to this book acting as another form of triangulation...

 

Hi Cat!

It's that old bittersweet thing about how justice seldom comes swiftly.

I've mentioned this one before but it fits here (names changed, of course):

My D(6 at the time) was talking about some kid in her class and I asked uBPDw who his parents were: “Penelope and, um, I can’t remember his name…. but he’s an awful person”.  I asked her how she’d know that if she doesn’t even know his name, “Because Penelope told me” and when I replied that getting wrapped up in gossip about someone whose name you don’t even know isn’t the same as knowing the truth I could tell it caught her off-guard.  No lesson was learned, of course, but for that moment she knew what I meant.

A self help book can't be used for self help unless someone is willing to look at themselves. If not, it sounds like it becomes a justification for blaming someone else. If what someone perceives is filtered through victim thinking, then everyone else is either a rescuer or a persecutor and nothing is their fault.

I recall when growing up my BPD mother read the latest self help books and was quoting them in reference to someone else. "They are doing the _____" whatever what was in the books. Or deciding what is going on with someone else according to the book. I was too young at the time to be aware of how she was perceiving them, but I recall these books from the quotes, even though I didn't read them.

At one point, BPD mother called up people to tell them I was emotionally unstable due to "hormonal changes". I am the right age to consider these changes but the emotionally unstable was her idea. She's said so many untrue things about me to her relatives that I am embarrassed when I am around them as a wonder what they must be thinking. I also think it's sad that they would even consider believing her. Unless it's a relationship I want to attempt to preserve, I just don't bother saying anything. It would put them in a "her word" or "my word" choice and so I don't even want to get into that.

If you are concerned she may damage your ability to earn a livelihood or might be in legal harm from abuse accusations, I would consult a lawyer.

That's exactly what I'm seeing here.  The book does have some introspective stuff about only being able to help yourself, but I'd say it's only about 15% of the content and the other 85% is very black-and-white persecutor / victim content and the reader is never regarded as having been the cause of their own troubles.

This stuff kind of irks me in that this "prayer minister" has to have a disclaimer on her website that she isn't a licensed counselor but is apparently acting in this function.  This book is essentially a prescription.  One can imagine how this would go down if it involved prescribing medicine.  Maybe in a court setting she wouldn't get any store credit for this kind of "counseling" since the very person doing it has stated that they aren't one.



It pains me greatly to read this and you have my sympathy.  It is very isolating, isn't it?  It's like living in a fish bowl.



I am.  I have an appointment for Thursday.  This is a topic of discussion I had not considered and just now added it to my list.  That's why these exchanges are so essential.  Please keep the ideas coming.

Thanks for the kind words and the good story, Cat.

Notwendy, you put it very well about self-help books, especially in this category. All the standard books I have read about dealing with a pwBPD have two parts, the first about what is going on inside the other person, the rest about learning better ways of dealing with them.

AND, if we are trying to be honest with ourselves, especially if we have been in the relationship(s?) for a long time, part of what we learn is about how we have been facilitating, aiding and abetting. Indeed, I suspect the most common responses of a person living/dealing with a pwBPD are things that make the situation worse. Understandable, forgivable, and there are many reasons, though it may be difficult to undo. A lot of the posts I read on this forum are about people's struggles to understand years of making mistakes and their efforts to learn how to do better.

Thinking more on this, a recent exchange I have relayed before:

The other night the kids were talking with their mother about a lesson from a show about conmen taking advantage and warning about people that suddenly want to be your friend where before they were not and she shot back to them, "What you need to worry about are people that were your friends that suddenly aren't anymore... and you don't know why".  That made my heart sink.  Their wheels were turning but I could tell it went over their heads.

Couper,
 Glad you are seeing a lawyer and I hope you tell that lawyer everything.

Just a side note for you, an emotionally battered women would never let their partner see that she had those books and would especially be careful with things she wrote or circled in books like that.

These books are just scattered all over the place willy nilly where I can sit and look at them.  I never thought about it like that.  What does it mean that I keep all of my notes locked up like Fort Knox?

Humor me, I just feel the need to process as I'm looking through my own stuff today. We moved to our current place in an area that was entirely new to us almost six years ago (that was a whole battle in itself).  My D(then 4) had a birthday coming up after we had been here for eight months.  Leading up to it I kept giving gentle reminders that we needed to get invitations sent out so people had time to put it on their calendars.  Being very careful not to nag, but remind enough that there was no excuse for procrastination.  At that point we were integrated into the homeschool group here (among other groups) and our kids went to lots of other kid's birthday parties.  They were always coming back talking about their friends.  We had been here about eight months.

Either one or two days before the date of her party, I was downstairs finishing up my breakfast, both kids there having a good time, and uBPDw came down crying her eyes out in a hysterical fit: "Nobody is coming to her birthday.  My little girl's day is ruined.  I don't know what to do." and at first I'm incredulous.  Our kids get taken to everyone else's stuff and nobody can come ours?  What the hell?  So I said, "I don't understand, what kind of excuses are they giving?  Did we conflict with some other event?"

"It's because they all hate me and they don't want to come."

That's when an alarm bell went off and I said, "How many people did you send invitations to?"

She looked at me cold and said, "I didn't invite anybody."

I wish people could see the horrible things that have gone on here so when they're told by her that she "longs for a husband that would cherish her", just like she underlined in that book, that maybe they would stop and think just for a second that maybe there is a reason behind it other than it being "her husband's wickedness rubbing off on her".   

 

Exactly! I hope that there are no doubts in your mind about what is going on.

Generally I'm okay but I do have moments of occasional doubt when I'm trying to be objective about if I have missed something on my part.  Do you think this extends further -- that they are being left out because she wants these notes to be found? 

I don't know if we can determine another person's intention...However, I assume she is an intelligent woman and I think you mentioned somewhere that she mentioned the Holy Spirit needed to "bonk" some sense into you so it would not be surprising if she is trying to use that as a tool to "convict" you. 

She can be very passive-aggressive and in other ways in the past she has dropped breadcrumbs as a way to send messages.  There is likely some merit to the notion.  Very observant on your part.

Her being very passive-aggressive makes sense. I think most of our pwbpd have some aspect of this passive-agressiveness. Unfortunately, I know a lot about this stuff.
Our spouses have some similarities of not having the ability to be introspective at all and being very self-centered.

If only it stopped there.  Awhile back I came across something she wrote saying that if only I would shave my beard, like I was when we met, that would make me go back to loving her.  About two years after we got married I grew a beard.  Originally she encouraged me to do it and liked it.  It's nothing crazy and I think it suits me and I was always getting ingrown hairs which were very painful, unsightly, and took a long time to heal.  Sorry if that's t.m.i., but the simple fact that I have to explain things like this is how ridiculous it has gotten.  She has told me before that shaving my beard, "is another thing I won't do" for her.  I guess when I grew it is about the time my eyes started to open and I began pushing back against the disordered thinking, but the beard had nothing to do with any of that.  It must be a marker for her.  

Tonight after dinner for some reason she told the kids that she, "Had a dream that daddy was clean shaven like when I met him".  The way it spilled out, there is some kind of message hidden in there, too.  The tone was like she was taking a swing at me.  The kids started lobbing questions at her like, "What was the dream about?  What was happening?  Why did you dream that?" and then she got flustered and wanted to shut down the cross-examination!  Said that's all she remembered.  Who knows.  There is as much of a chance that it didn't even happen at all.      

Pardon me if you've covered this elsewhere, but does he express resentment toward the kids perceiving them as a "before and after"?



Depends on the situation.  In a case like tonight, I am unmoved as though I never heard it.  I've heard so much worse that maintaining a poker face is easy and I will not affirm an absurdity.  If she is being outright nasty about something, I will tell her that I am disengaging and leave her to stew in her own juices.

I have never heard him say anything like that specifically. He does seem to have resentment when he has to do something for them(normal child rearing) that might be an inconvenience to him. According to him all of us are blamed for ruining his life...he just kinda lumps us all together.

That seems pretty healthy

That is awful.  In the past mine has told me that she is jealous when the kids love on me and me on them.  I couldn't imagine being jealous of a thing like that and it just plain makes me pity her.  She has a special skill for being able to suck all the oxygen out of the room.




Healthy would be none of us having to be here for this stuff!  I hope can grab some peace wherever you are able to find it.  

The meeting with the lawyer was good.  He's an interesting guy and obviously has a lot of experience.  He has been at it for a long time.  He wanted to know how things to go this point and a few different times I explained the specifics of a situation and he would respond with his analysis of it and it was spot-on.  It was almost like the replies given here.  When I gave him an example of her manufacturing a situation that never occurred to create herself the victim, his eyes got big and he said, "This is a dangerous person.  If she goes a step further and makes false charges like you touched your kids or something, you could wind up with some real problems on your hands.  Don't doubt her ability to do it."  From what I gathered, he has seen a lot.

It was a one-hour visit and I could have spent all day with him, so needless to say not everything got covered, but he said that I could come back for as many of these preliminary conferences as I want before I commit to going forward.  Getting the boilerplate stuff about the process out of the way has given me a place to structure the next meeting into some specific topics that need to be covered. 

This state has both fault and no-fault options, but fault trials virtually never happen due to the complexity and expense.  If she were cooperative (ha ha) it could be hammered out and done in 90 days.  If not, it has to go through the whole process of separation, etc.  There might be some credit toward separation existing already given the specifics of our circumstances.  It is an equity state rather than a simple 50/50 split, so there is some work to do with division of assets, but also I didn't marry young and I had a life before her.  His assuring me that I would not lose my business and would likely be able to hold on to some other things was a great relief.  One of the reasons I sought him out was his business experience and we discussed some interesting strategies.  That will be what it will be, but at least I'm not dealing with one of these lawyers that is single-topic and gets walked all over on the rest.

Of course, the kids are the biggest concern and he assured me that she cannot skip town to retreat, and that since I currently just get stonewalled on topics like school and health, it would give me an avenue to enforce my rights as a parent.  After seeing her issues with authority getting worse these last few years (meaning not me, but authority outside the home) if she gets called before a judge a few times it might be enough to get her to negotiate rather than just turn her back and do as she pleases.

Conflict stuff I can deal with and doesn't scare me much.  My only real fear in all of this is my relationship with my kids and that's something the law will have no control over.  I wish they were at least teenagers or something.  They still have such a wide-eyed innocence about them that they aren't going to understand.

So, I think I'll tailor the next meeting to kids / custody / responsibilities.  If I can get my head wrapped around that, then assets and the logistics of getting to a point of complete separation.  Thoughts are always welcome and enouraged.         

While it's true that there's no law that says "it's illegal for one parent to badmouth the other parent to the kids", I think there are sort of roundabout ways for there to be legal protections for your kids' relationship with you. Namely:


I'd probably be asking for strategies on how to 110% lock in that the kids get counseling, and not just with someone that only Mom picks, and something that starts before or during separation/divorce, not after, and also not after Mom has already smeared you to the kids. Start thinking about a way for the kids to build a relationship with a T sooner rather than later, and make it so that Mom can't unilaterally pull them out of T. Again, I know it's not a lot of specifics, but these are questions I'd bring to the next meeting -- how to protect the kids' ability to be in counseling (which roundaboutly protects their relationship with you).

I am relieved this lawyer has both experience and strategies.  We often speak here of our members doing better with triple support — trusted friends and relatives, local proactive lawyer with strategies, and peer support such as here with a multitude of time-tested strategies.

What you've learned here has prepared you well for the matters to be discussed with your lawyer.  The local legal advice and the remote peer support can complement each other, maximizing your prospect of improved (less bad) outcome.

Thank you both for this excellent feedback.  It is going into my notes.

Out of the three, the trusted friends and relatives thing is lacking.  I have very little of my own family left and they are not nearby.  For a variety of reasons, sometimes I am years between seeing my parents in-person.  In all these years, in only two instances have I uttered a peep about this to any friends and neither of them live anywhere close to here.  A couple of years ago one friend could tell things weren't right and pushed me into opening up saying I've helped her with so much that she wanted to help me (for context because I know it's the first thing people think -- it's never been romantic, she's 40 years older than me, and I knew her well before my uBPDw came along so it's not like a splitting loyalty thing).  She already knew about the vaccination conflict and worried horribly for my kids, but as people tend to do anytime I'd hint at something it was dismissed as, "oh, you know she's just perfect -- you know she's works so hard -- you know she spoils her babies" etc., but she doesn't know that.  She knows only me and in a decade has only ever spent a few hours total in her presence and never visited me here.  When she pushed to offer a sympathetic ear I dropped my guard, warned her that what I'd tell her goes on here is very distorted, and she pushed anyway.  I didn't want to overload her donkey and gave her only a couple of examples when she asked and the next time I'd call she'd feign not feeling well and promised to call back later, then not answer at all and not call back as she always had when she knew I had called.  I gave lots of space, but realized after awhile that I was being ignored.  Now she tells a mutual friend regularly, "I wish he'd call sometime" and without wanting him to get sucked in I tell him that phones work both ways and she doesn't dial out anymore.  There's nothing I can do.  It has put me in an awful spot, caused me to realize she's too uncomfortable to face the reality I live here, but doesn't want to fess up that she regrets asking.  She had been one of my best friends and a confidante for 20 years and now I've lost that.

The only other one is my best friend for nearly 30 years and I only ever said anything direct to him two months ago.  He lives in a similarly miserable situation and I have been an eyewitness to his torture.  I have spent a good amount of time in his wife's presence and witnessed some awful things.  Her issues are not hidden.  I don't know what specifically is wrong with her, I'd say it's not BPD, but she has claimed bipolar and been treated at various times with medication.  He's a different person from me but, since he's lived it, he understands.  He's no help for an exit, though.  He just shuts up and takes it for reasons that are all his own, yet I know it affects him horribly.  Other than that, I fear saying anything to anyone because I'll either lose them or create flying monkeys that will just turn around and feed the rumor mill and that's the last thing I need.  That's a big reason why this place has been so important to me.  People want to believe all the rest of us have what they have and I guess maybe can't comprehend it because they haven't lived it.    

Just wanted to add my two cents. I have no relatives at this point. I have a cousin or two who are alive but I haven’t talked to them in years, and never felt close to them when I was younger. (This is one of the consequences of being an only child of older parents.)

There’s something to be said about not having connections with people who’ve known you all your life. The upside is that it’s really freeing, not having to fight against outdated perceptions.

I did disclose my situation to some friends. The solidarity was supportive, but not terribly helpful. The best help for me was individual counseling. It was with the psychologist that had seen my husband and me for couple’s counseling. She let me know that he has a personality disorder, but didn’t specify which one. I know he presented more NPD around her, while saving the BPD for me.

Between seeing her and participating here, I found everything that I needed. She tried to fire me a few times, thinking that I didn’t need her anymore, but I kept going until I felt that way too.

Sometimes friends and family are not the best confidants. They either can't relate or are too uncomfortable with the situation, or they don't want get involved with marital/family issues.

The other thing friends can do is validate us to the point that we don't grow from it. They take our side. It's the other person's fault, rather than prompt us to work at bettering our part in the dynamics- even if the relationship ends- there may still be issues during divorce/parenting.

Also, I think many of us end up being isolated from others due to the dynamics in the relationship and/or family dynamics.

I would recommend counseling with a counselor you feel safe with. It's an empathetic ear, confidential, and with a goal on personal growth and recovery. I also felt that the people in 12 step codependency ( and for me ACA) actually "got it".

Feeling validated in counseling is very helpful. For a long time, I think people dealing with a BPD person have adopted their view of us, without our own feelings really being heard. That's important. I also value the people who showed me "tough love" when they needed to point something out that I could work on myself.

I'm kind of in that same boat in that my parents were older when they had me.  There are still other very good friends back in my home state, some that were around since before I was born, but I can't go to them either.  They just have no understanding and if I do finally get the ball rolling on this out in the open, I expect to lose more friends or catch hell for not working to "fix it".  

The only reason I opened up to that one friend is because she pushed wanting to help and I was certainly around enough for a lot of her own personal stuff through the years.  I was a fool to think it would be reciprocated.  Part of me says I should have just kept my mouth shut like when I pushed back against the first couple of offers to listen, but I suppose the same outcome would have been inevitable because the pressure to share wouldn't have stopped.  It has crossed my mind that there's a secret side to her too and that she identified with some of what I shared about my uBPDw and she couldn't face it.  She's not without her own problems, and if anything all of this has shown me that you can't truly know someone that you aren't in an intimate relationship with.

What Notwendy mentioned is another reason I don't share, because I try to stay objective and don't want people close to me simply telling me what I want to hear.  I already have a wife that actively solicits those kinds of relationships.  She has succeeded in having a large circle of wagons placed around her by people that reinforce whatever narrative she wants to feed them.  With my best friend and even the lawyer, I express the caveat that they don't have to throw impartiality out the window just because of the positions they are in.  Neither one of them have truly seen what I have.  I'm the same when others come to me with issues.  "Trust, but verify".  I'm not into the sports mentality of rooting for a team just because that's your team.  I want people around me that are objective thinkers.  

I think it's a gift that I had a 12 step sponsor who turned the mirror on me. Counselors will do that too. They can be a safe space to share your feelings and perhaps the most "secure" bond we might feel. I don't confide much in people due to fear they will reject me if they knew about my family dynamics. Maybe  there's no reason to be so fearful but I do think people who don't have a similar experience can be prone to judge.

Especially because pw BPD can be so wonderful to other people. Some people would not believe me.

But this particular sponsor had some tough love for me, and it was a good thing even if it didn't always feel good. Like a tough work out, but liking the results. A counselor, each time I vented about a person, would really get into why that upset me, why might I have reacted like that. She listened, but then shifted from "what that person did" to "what can I do?".

It might not seem fair- after all- it's the other person with the problem. But it can also be a form of self care.

You mentioned the vaccination conflict and children.  If either of you are concerned about the risks for children, there are many factors to consider.  One is that early on, the scientists reported that one susceptible site for infection was ACE2 receptors which haven't developed yet in younger children.  That's one of the reasons children aren't impacted much by the virus, statistically the flu virus is more dangerous to them.

One reported mistake done with the "jab" itself is that the needle is being inserted in the arm and then in some cases the vaccine promptly pushed in.  It is supposed to be injected into the muscle but UK Dr. John Campbell discussed a study (https://youtu.be/nBaIRm4610o) where mice were injected, half into muscle and half into blood vessels.  The mice which were injected into blood vessels suffered more heart and liver damage.  So he encouraged that first the needle is aspirated (pulling back to ensure no blood appears) before injecting the vaccine.

My sibling is a RN, BSN and she said shots into muscle should be aspirated to ensure the needle is properly placed.

There are an assortment of ways to be proactive, most discouraged by officialdom, but taking vitamin D3 as supplement is the simplest way to help build immunity.

(Edited to correct the link.)

Looking back, I think I've goofed up and jumped thread.  It sounds like you're talking about Covid (your link doesn't work).  If so, put the whole Covid thing to the side.  That's not the topic on the table.

Before getting married and discussing things about raising children, vaccinations were a topic.  We both agreed that it's not wise to load up a little person that has been out for all of 30 minutes with over a dozen vaccines.  Our agreement was that after they've gotten established and all is good to create a plan with the new pediatrician about what to get and what schedule, agreeing on the essentials we had when we were kids (teatnus, MMR, Polio, etc.) and not some of the modern more elective ones.  

There were doctors visits early on, (I now know) me getting lied to, stonewalling, her having conflict with the doctor (remember, she can't deal with anyone disagreeing with her), and my children have never had anything.  Not one single thing we agreed to.  It later comes out that she never ever had any intention of following through with any of it.  In her mind she was supposed to educate me and change my mind after the fact.  I now know these are long-held beliefs from way before I came along and that I got lied to.

This could be much longer but I won't drag this out.  That's just to square you up with the situation that I must have posted elsewhere.  Sorry about that!   

Now I understand about your vaccination situation.  My ex too had concerns about vaccines, but at first mainly to avoid combo injections.  So many were administered separately.  Later she became more difficult and during our separation the pediatrician "withdrew services" due to her behaviors.

(I fixed the link.)

Yep, another knife in the back since it was something she never had any intention of making good.  Followed by years of expecting something that was never going to come.  She doesn't trust me, yet she's the one that cannot be trusted.  Moving got her away from the pediatrician we had and now I know this is why she won't get a new one.  Whenever I have tried to push making this happen, she goes and lights a fire in the opposite corner of the room, so to speak.  This will become a true nightmare if they have to go to regular school someday or wherever else it may be a requirement in other aspects of their lives.

She won't even shop at the main grocery store we used to use before 2020.  Found this out only recently.  She had to rush to some other store last week before it closed and I said go to the big one, it's open late: "I'm not going there.  It's like Venezuela."  I ask her to explain why and all she'll say is it's like Venezuela.  I tell her I've never been to Venezuela so I don't understand why: "You want me to have an anxiety attack because it's like Venezuela."  She just got more agitated with each request for her to elaborate.  She won't admit it, but I think what happened is when different stores had different rules last year, a store manager probably confronted her for not wearing a mask or something and it's just like the pediatrician thing.  She can't contend with anybody that challenges her.  The kids often shop with her at these various places so I've asked what that means and they say they have no idea.  All the stores seem the same to them.

I spent a wonderful day alone with my kids again and we just got back from dinner.  It's so much fun not having to worry if a waitress is going to spit in your food because she does something offensive to them or have her trying to crash into a woman carrying a baby in an aisle just because, what, she's competition or something?  I have the best time with my kids when she's nowhere around but have to remind myself that the context still isn't the same as my kids don't know anything about having two separate homes.  I think I need to do more of these separate outings with them so they realize at least that things like this will still be good with only one of us around.    

The idea that stores are like Venezuela is floating around social media in reference to the supply chain and stores being out of stock on some items. Without getting into political debates ( not allowed here, and not anything enjoyable ) I think it's pretty obvious that people in general seem to be divided along political lines and the lines are clear.

I think everyone tries to decide for themselves along the muddled information on social media. However, I also wonder if for BPD taking a stand is also a form of "self" for them. So being anti mask, anti vaccine is not only a decision but identifying as anti mask, anti vaccine is a form of self and belonging. And not to pick on one side ( but bringing this one up as it's your wife's side)- because I see this on both sides of the fence.

During the last election, my mother would make statements that reflected statements she heard from her friends, a sort of way to "fit in". After all, if all your friends think one candidate is a total loser, well you say that too. Sometimes I would challenge her statement with a fact- and she'd be surprised as this wasn't in her circle to say that. Social media encourages this kind of thinking with one sided memes. I think we are all susceptible to this in some ways. Social media is also mostly black and white thinking.

So if someone at a store asks your wife to put on a mask, it's a challenge to her identity, and so she will likely feel her identity is threatened. If she goes to the pediatrician, they are going to ask about  childhood vaccinations. That is standard routine, just as they will ask about childhood illnesses for their records. However, this may feel threatening to her as well.

Sadly, I think these divisions are influencing everyone, not just pwBPD but I think it would be harder to discuss these topics with someone who does have BPD. It's getting harder to "meet in the middle" for everyone unfortunately.

Is that where she picked up the term?  Most of what she says she parrots from social media so I'm not surprised it's not a thought unique to her.  It's not even necessarily political.  In almost all things she will reject the rational in favor of the absurd.  The deal is though (using that criteria) -- all the stores were / are like Venezuela and it has been happening again.  There is something different about this place that she won't go.  Something happened there and it is personal somehow.  No matter how I asked the question, she will not tell me what makes this store different from the rest.  Past experience tells me when she is obfuscating, it is lying by omission.  I have been there and noticed nothing unique about it.  It's a real shame because it's actually the nicest store and now I know why certain things stopped appearing in the cupboard.

I have no interest in opening up any political dialogue.  I will say that so far as what's-what out there, she and I don't disagree on most of it.  Where we disagree is on how we treat people.  If a store has policies I don't like -- their house, their rules, I move on.  If a store has policies she doesn't like -- rip them on social media, badger friends that still go there, they need to be protested against, etc.  She spent untold hours of 2020 absorbing every kook-job angle on everything and diligently fighting the Facebook war (while several dinners burned and I mean completely unsalvageable burned -- you have not smelled a smell until you have come in to find a pot of hardboiled eggs with their shells cremated in the pot!) and I left her 100% hands-off with no comment, but the one time I had the t.v. on at all for myself (simply for the footage) and it was on a channel she objected to, she barges in the room screaming at me. 2020 isn't what did me in for all of this, but it surely showed me how bad she can be.  She was absolutely deranged.

This is no different since Day 1 when Hyde came out, just magnified.  Everyone should accept and abide by her beliefs, but if your beliefs contradict hers even though you don't impose them on her -- she fights.  

It must certainly affect pwBPD to a greater extreme.  I have plenty of friends I disagree with.  We talk, we debate, we agree or disagree, whatever -- we are still friends and we go get lunch.  Last year there was hardly anyone in her circle that she didn't find some way to offend and here recently she's been saying that she doesn't understand why she doesn't have any friends left.

The Venezuela thing is all over Facebook ( I don't do other social media ). I also have friends and family who span the whole spectrum of politics/mask/vaccine opinion and so I do hear all points of view. I sometimes question if this is going to be the dividing factor.

You are correct though, it's how we treat each other that makes the difference. I see posts from people ( both sides) blocking, name calling, refusing to speak to someone with a different opinion. This leaves people only in their own camps.

I think it comes down to boundaries. If someone doesn't want to wear a mask and the store requires it, they can decide what to do- wear one or shop somewhere else. It's taking it to social media, slamming the store, unfriending anyone who disagrees that hurts relationships. I would think this kind of drama could attract disordered people- it even involves people who don't have a disorder.

I've mentioned this one elsewhere but will again because it fits here.  This spring she was posting in the open with one of the few (and new) friends she still has talking about everyone that has "snoozed" her and how she should p.m. all those people and make them listen to her.  I think it was a type of passive-aggressiveness posting that out in the open.  Sort of like standing in the middle of a party with one person and trash talking everyone standing around you.

One of those friends (old friend, a very good person from 20 years back who I liked a lot) checked in and gave her the most eloquent piece of honesty about why she has lost all of her old friends.  Everything except one little comment was about her being uncivil, disparaging anyone whose personal beliefs didn't align with hers, etc.  It was wonderfully written and factual.  The one place she deviated from the message was to say that she, "recognized the irony that each of us believes the other has been deceived".  She completely ignored all the undebatable hard truths the friend shared in a very classy way and went into damage control mode messaging all of her perceived allies that saw it about, "how I pity her, she is so deceived".  I guess that was the only straw she could grasp to discredit her.  I don't think any of them ever sent her a message of support.  Even her allies recognized how toxic she has become.  

I don't think any of us like to hear constructive criticism, but when faced with having done something that may have hurt a friendship- for the relationship to be repaired, we need to apologize and try to do better. If someone can not receive the information, it makes the relationship tend to be one sided.

Hi Couper,

I remember some very noteable times in my childhood and adult life where my uBPDm had some similar reactions like your uBPDw. The situations were different, but the responses were parallel. My mom became extremely angry if she were confronted in public about something. She never forgot and then permanently marked them off her list. If it was a store or a person, the response was the same. It's called 'splitting' in case you're not familiar with the term. I like what my T called it: the naughty and the nice list. Heaven forbid if you got on my uBPDm's naughty list!

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0

Wools

Thank you for this.  I've certainly seen the term enough around here but didn't attribute it to this event.  Maybe it could also be called the Split List!  I'm on the Split List.  I guess now the store is on the Split List.  Too bad.  They had a nice assortment of pickles!

Hello friends.  I know I have not posted in quite some time and feel terrible for dropping off without explanation.  It happened for a variety of reasons.  One of which was coming here day-after-day seeing the revolving door of new people.  I felt like all I was doing was commiserating and not offering much that was constructive and that maybe it was just time for a break to put my time and energy into some other things.  December also brought of unfortunate occurrences and sickness, but that has since passed.  I am very grateful for a friend from here that has stayed in touch and helped me during this time.

This thread is old, but I bumped it because it's where I left off.  I still haven't gone back for the second trip to the lawyer.  Life got busy with the end-of-year and Christmas stuff and I let it slip.  Also, when your little girl says things out of the blue like, "I love having my daddy at home every day", it's easy to lose your resolve.

My uBPDw is keeping up with her "counseling" mentioned at the start of the thread.  I've never said anything against it and she almost always asks only by text if I can "watch the kids on Wednesday".  Never an in-person request like an adult and I have never said one word about what it costs or anything else.  In fact, it's usually almost always sent ten minutes after she goes out to be with one of her religious groups.  They have been weekly until recently.

Honestly, she has been much more tolerable, but the BPD monster still lurks.  My attitude toward her has not softened with her new behavior.  She has slandered me, used me as her tool to promote her victimhood, etc. and never apologized or acknowledged any of it.   I wish she would just vaporize. 

It's all weighing heavily on me this week because... I'm having a good time!  It's like living a double life.  Last year I mentioned an event from six years ago that I attended that was just five days away and she ambushed me at one of the stops.  Finally, I had an opportunity to do this event again and, leading up to it, I could tell another ambush was coming by the questions she was asking.  I pushed her away from the topic a few times but she kept probing about details.  Maybe not how you guys would tell me to handle it, but the morning I left, I told her that this was my personal time away and that I wanted our worlds separate and that I would not tolerate another ambush like the last time.  The veins popped out of her head and she got all dysregulated, which I totally expected, but if I did not make absolutely clear my intentions, I knew she would use it as an opportunity to ambush.  I told her that I know she trashes me within her circle and that she wasn't welcome in mine to do the same.  That this is my time away and that I cannot stop her spreading falsehoods when she is out, but that I would not tolerate her trashing me within my own world.  Three more days left and no ambush so far.  I'm also back at the house every night (part of what made this doable because it's close this year), but because she sleeps in so late and I'm so reluctant to come home, I barely see her.

It has been a bittersweet time.  I am free and happy with my healthy-minded friends, but I also come crashing back down to earth when I realize this is just for a few more days.  The occasional person asks why my wife doesn't come (most people's do) and that's when realty slaps me in the face.  I just have to tell them it's not her thing (it isn't, but she still wants to be there to make it all about her).  It's enough to make me consider the next appointment with the lawyer that I should have done last year... and then thoughts of my kids come back in to play.  What in the hell did I do to deserve this wretched scenario?  I'm trying my best to detach while I'm there and enjoy it.  My feelings toward her have been unwavering.  Every time she runs to the store, I fantasize what it would be like if she never came back... and then my heart sinks when I hear her car coming up the driveway.  Despite the front she has put up, she still hates me and blames me for everything in her life.  I only wish the desire to part ways was as strong in her as it is in me. 

There aren't any questions here.  I just felt obligated to drop in and report.  Here's hoping that all of you are in a better place than you were last year.
           

The event is now over and I have been through a roller coaster of emotions today.  I woke up having felt almost a sense of regret for having gone to experience a good life that does not exist here, only to have to return to reality.  It's good that my uBPDw took off for her parent's yesterday because I think it was good to be alone.  A well-timed message from a friend helped.

I was up pretty early from not being able to sleep and by 9:00 decided to call the lawyer's office to make the second appointment that I should have made six months ago (where would I be now if I had followed-through? -- maybe where I wish I was now).  Some new friends that I made at the event stopped by and that made my regret that I attended go away. 

I mowed a lot of grass, did a lot of thinking, and got a second well-timed note from a friend that made me realize I'm already living a separate life under the same roof (that part is painless for me to grasp, anyway) but that my kids also already somewhat experience life as it would be completely divorced.  I go away and do my things separately.  She goes away (overnight for days at a time), takes them with her, and does her things.  How would it be any different if they were in their own house ten miles away?  It cannot be healthy for them to see two unaffectionate parents living under the same roof.  Maybe their world would make more sense to see two people who do not like each other living in separate places.  She has dysregulated around the kids without me here in the past.  I can't protect them from her 24/7, but at least if I had a 50/50 arrangement with them, I could protect them more than I do now.  Maybe I could even take them for days at a time like she does, as she is loathe to let me have them for more than a run to the store.

Though none of this has yet gone before the court, in the eyes of the law in my state, a lot of the requirements for the timeline of separation has actually been satisfied despite the fact that we still live under the same roof.  This came about as a result of my actions before I even knew, but once I knew, I have maintained it.  In almost three years, there has been no backsliding or inconsistency.  There has been zero intimacy, no island vacations, and trips where she does accompany me are only for the benefit of my kids, like taking them to see my parents. 

I cannot face-down my second 40 years like this so that a predator BPD can try to fill a hole in her soul by devouring mine.  None of it is fair to my children or myself, but unfairness is rampant in daily life in many other ways.  I guess all we can do is work with the hand we are dealt and hope for the best possible outcome.

     

It sounds like you decided, perhaps quite some time ago, to detach from your uBPDw. Are you still conflicted about staying, or hoping for improvement in the relationship? What do you feel has kept you there?

 :hug:
Wools

Hi Wools,

Simple.  My kids.  Last year the lawyer took away the fear that I would be bankrupted, so I can't use that as an excuse.  When your babies run up and hug you out of the blue and say things like, "we love having daddy at home every day", how can you turn around and tell them they are going to get partially evicted?

There is no improvement that would cause me to want to stay.  She has slandered me to promote her victimhood.  She has taken away my dignity by telling people things like I can't pay our bills, yet we have no unsecured debt, nothing is in arrears, my credit is excellent, and nobody is going hungry.  She tells people that I exercise absolute control over her all while she has been free to run around wherever with no objection from me.  I cannot view her as anything other than a predator with no conscience and no integrity.

I would throw myself on a grenade to save my kids.  The difference is, once a grenade goes off, the threat is over.  If I keep throwing myself on her and wind up having a heart attack or whatever is coming down the pike, she's still here to keep doing damage even after I'm gone.    

I relate to this twisted thinking, it's fascinating that they can believe in it. I think it has something to do with the fact that she can't control your thoughts and feelings, so she views it as you controlling her. So she sees boundaries as control.

I think that could be a component of it.  It also follows her steady narrative of painting herself as the victim.  She tells people, "I can ask, but he won't let me go" and then they hug her and say, "Aw, Mrs. Couper we understand.  Mr. Couper bad".

There is a proverb that says a fool believes anything they are told and she has gone out of her way to surround herself with fools.  When she runs across a fair-minded skeptic, she will not play these games with them.  I actually have a letter that she wrote to me once where she admits to manipulating people.  

Thank you for taking the time to share your insight, 15.

Ditto.

In my case, when I assert a boundary (don't hit me), pwBPD sees and promulgates it as me exercising power and control over her.

In an instance from last summer, the nosy pastor at this fanatical church became very interested in having us over for dinner because "our kids are playing with each other and we should know each other better".  I was only ever of interest to him once she started trashing me to him, so I'm sure that was a veiled excuse to want to get face time with me.  Whatever, I'm not scared of anybody, I'll go.

One time -- one time only -- after I had spent all day out in the hot sun she tells me "they want us to come over tonight, do you want to go?".  It was impossible because they live 20 minutes away, we were due there in 20 minutes, and would have had to leave immediately, and I was a mess and cooked and just wanted to sit.  At a later date I saw her journal entry that she herself was dreading going, probably because she knows I'm pretty candid about things and if he had pressed her issues on her behalf, I would start spewing truth that didn't fit her narrative.  Despite my philosophical differences with them, they are actually very nice people and I really doubt they called and said "come now".  They probably gave a 24 - 48 hour invite, she held off until minutes before it was due to sabotage it, and then went to them saying I objected.

That's f'd up and I have experienced something similar.

My wife wants me to promise her I'll NEVER run away from her in argument, not even when physical violence is involved. Her logic here is that she would never attack me if I committed to staying no matter what. She used the argument of "give and take", I have to give up running away and what I get is that she stops attacking me. I know for a fact it wouldn't work, I'd just end up taking a beating "like a man" every once in a while.

Hi Couper

I'm coming rather late to thus conversation so I'm just going to say "hello" and continue to support you by listening.

I too can totally relate to the twisted thinking by an abusive spouse who thankfully I share no children. I shudder at what shape I would been in if it were otherwise.

Hang in there. It may take time for your body to catch up to your mind.

Rev

Thank you, Rev.  The well-wishes I have received past and present mean the world to me. 

That's exactly what Amber Heard did. You can listen to the taps begging him not to leave during (violent) arguments.

Yes I heard that recording. One example where if you try hard enough you will understand the "logic".

I had my second visit with the lawyer this afternoon.  I didn't come away from this meeting feeling as good about the first one.  He wasn't prepared with the notes he took six months ago so we had to cover a lot of the same ground again, but he did start to remember.  He was also fresh back from vacation, which may not have helped.  The meeting was shorter and seemed like an inconvenience to him (I think he had an appointment show early that was waiting in the office -- she came in before me and when leaving I heard him refer to her as his "early bird").  The first time six months ago he said "we can have as many of these consultations as you want to pay for until you're ready to start" and this time it was more like if you want to do this again, pay the retainer. 

I still think he's technically competent where both family and my business matters are concerned.  Finding someone with the business understanding is tough.  It was more apparent this time that in terms of dollars -- this is going to cost me.  Why that is scary is it is very difficult for the self-employed to get a mortgage and I'll have to remortgage the place where I'm already living and running my business in order to keep it and get uBPDw's name off of it, probably have to take on more debt to pay off uBPDw for her "stake" in things, and it's already tough to get through the financing process as it is.  If I were ordered to sell this place, I could not afford to move my business again. 

I have another piece of family property (for which I still owe my parents) that it has become apparent I will never have the resources to restore.  They live on the same lot, so simply selling it has never been a prospect.  I can't evict my parents.  It's kind of a unique place that people inquire about on occasion and someone else did so recently.  When I got back today I called this stranger for a chat and laid down some bold terms, like they can take the one house, but my parents have the perpetual right to rent back their current home for as long as they see fit.  That didn't seem to phase her.  It would be a complex deal, but it could unburden me of that property, give me a large window of opportunity to get my own possessions out and the place cleaned up, and still give my parents stability.  Otherwise, I'm faced with the unhappy prospect that when they meet their demise someday I'll have a vacant place with lots of stuff there far away.  I had this talk with my Dad afterwards and he was very open to it and said it's the kick he needed to go talk to an estate attorney to get his own affairs in order.  He already had a place on his radar screen but had been putting it off.  There might be another angle because if my mother needs to go into a nursing home soon, the property could be in jeopardy since they carry the note.

I didn't like that the attitude today was basically I have to decide to pull the trigger on divorce and then roll the dice to find out what the accounting will be.  Maybe what he intended was pay a retainer and then find out the accounting.  When I look at problems, I just try to see them as things that need a solution and that there is almost always a solution.

I guess I understand the process better.  I need to set up a separate bank account and start filling it.  I need to see if my second property can be leveraged to unburden myself of uBPDw.  It might be enough to pay her off, me get something out of it, get my life-from-afar in order there, and keep my place here with no new overhead.  The lawyer was big on filing and getting a start date established, but I really need my Dad to move on this estate planning stuff first.  I like negotiating deals, but not under these circumstances.  If I were dealing with a health-minded person, this would almost be enjoyable.  My fear is what will happen when I broach the subject and the timing of doing so.  I think I need it right up to the point of pulling the trigger before I say anything to uBPDw or else it will be followed by months of apprehension.

Another benefit of this conversation was getting some of this out in the open with my Dad.  He still knows nothing of my intent to divorce, but we have had a few years of indecision about what to do with him and my mother.  My mother is probably short on time and she never wanted to leave the property.  Conversely, my Dad is extremely adaptable.  He has been on the family property for 50 years now (since marrying my mother) yet said that he could move anywhere if circumstances change.  When I asked where he would go, he had no idea.  I have had in my head that I would love to have him here.  We have the same interests, the place is big enough that he could live downstairs and have his own floor with what is essentially an ADA bathroom, and he would be happy hanging out in my shop and having me take him along to the places I go.  Maybe I would get back some of the years I missed since moving away.  That's all a lot of talk, but I'm glad that it's a talk we finally had and that he's open to the concept.

Thanks for listening.           

Not fun to feel like an inconvenience, I'm very sensitive to that kind of stuff. Still, you came out of this appointment with a lot to think about so it wasn't wasted. If you went for a third consultation, he could be as engaged as the first time.

Thanks for the input, 15, and I believe you are right.  I'm not sensitive to how he responded on a personal level, just trying to sort through it.  I think part of it was that I didn't really go in with anything new.  I was sort of hoping he would guide me.  Maybe that is bad form for a consultation.  Probably makes me look like a tire kicker trying to get by with $60 bucks at a time.

My wheels were turning all night and my phone call with the interested party turned to texts and sharing photographs.  She does seem to have a genuine love for the property and that was important to me personally.  I know all too well that once something is sold that you relinquish control, but her interest seems to go beyond speculating.  It also doesn't help that I tend to think that things happen at the right time and place for a reason.  Through the years, I have had many such notes left in my mailbox, but none have been as persistent or genuine as this person has shown (so far).  

A direct sale and having to vacate has always been a fear of mine (there is stuff to move -- heavy bulky stuff -- and decades of accumulation to sort through).  I am far away.  The city isn't what it once was.  If overnight nobody was there anymore, it would not be a shock to me if I came back and it was ransacked.  It's early yet, but if she is truly willing to negotiate a deal where my parents have the right to rent their place back for as long as they want, that is very attractive.  It should be for her, too, because finding decent renters in the city is tough.  We could plan a staged exodus.  I would be unburdened of my house restoration, the insurance on the structures, and the maintenance.  Most importantly, based on the rough numbers from yesterday, I could conceivably pull out enough cash to buy out uBPDw, have some left over for cushion, and take on no new financial risk on this end that would cause me to put my work-property here at risk.  The thought of getting in too deep and not being able to obtain the new mortgage was overwhelming.  I don't mind the cash aspect of having to buy uBPDw out to make her go away.  If I amortize it out over 40 years, I would gladly pay that every year to get rid of her!  It's just that immediately after the meeting yesterday, a path forward wasn't clear.

As much as anything, it would do my heart well to find a buyer that could do the house justice.  In 20 years, I have struggled just to maintain it.  I have to face the fact that in another 20 it could meet its demise under my ownership, and who wins then?  As much as it was my dream to restore it during my working years and have a second home at the old family place, that just isn't ever going to happen, and my dreams of what I hope to do in my retirement years have evolved and it is not to sit on a porch and watch the world go by.  (Or watch someone sitting on a couch Facebooking and Tweeting and obsessing over conspiracy theories.)  By the time any of that comes to fruition, the people I want to go back and see will all be gone, anyway.

I think the next steps are:

1. Open the new bank account and start filling it.
2. Continue to negotiate with this prospective buyer and make sure she's genuine.
3. Get my Dad to the estate lawyer and find out some rough numbers.
4. If they work, retain the lawyer and see if he concurs that the numbers work.
5. Then start steering the discussion here toward formal separation.

uBPDw likes money.  Not like she's a gold digger, but her narcissist side finds more security in having cash in the bank than a husband's word that he will provide for her (I'll spare you the life insurance story again unless you want to hear it).  As much as I detest her, I don't want to send her out in the world destitute.  Unnecessary hardship on that end will only cause my kids to resent me.  I can play fair without being doormat.  She'll still have to find work, but I think the way to paint this is to set her up, tell her she can go pursue her crackpot obsessions with joy, and hope she embraces it.  The enablers she has surrounded herself with are already dying to catch her when she falls and I have no interest in winning their favor.  Let them have her.

Thanks again for letting me put this out there.  Maybe TMI, but it gives me somewhere to come back, reference, and regroup.

No such thing as TMI.  Bear in mind that there are people who are reading this and not necessarily commenting.  And yet, they are learning from this conversation. You just never really know who needs to hear what's on your heart.

Thanks for all of this.

I too have learned - impressed that you a putting a plan together now. Gives me hope.

Hang in there.

Rev

Thank you for the reminder.  It falls into the category of "things we know but seldom remember" and really helps to hear from another.

As the wife of a lawyer (who doesn’t do divorces, but has friends who do), I think the attorney was setting a clear boundary that he doesn’t want to advise you of what route to take. So often people see divorce lawyers as de facto therapists, and reputable ones try to steer clear of that role, though the lines easily get blurred.

Though he may have been rather blunt, I think he was trying to save you from wasting money and giving you an incentive to get clear on your path.

Our member notWendy often writes that her father stayed with her BPD mother.  My impression is that's one of her biggest regrets, that her father didn't leave and give her an opportunity for at least some of her life (edit: childhood) to be away from her mother's environment.

That's an interesting thought and you may be right.  I wasn't asking him whether or not to do it, but you are right that his response could have been along that same vein.  The one thing I do still like about him is he doesn't seem to adhere to these conventions like the man has to go live in a box and the woman gets the house.  I get the sense that he would be every bit working for me.

This is something I actually think about and hope for.  They may not know it at this stage of their life, but I would hope it comes to them later. 

My uBPDw has been on much better behavior lately since starting the "counseling" that isn't counseling, but the monster still lurks beneath.  One thing is still the same, though -- my kids interact with me... but they only respond to her. 

Today I opened the checking account at a different bank.  It's only a little thing but I keep trying to put one foot in front of the other.  This afternoon it occurred to me that I can tell the post office my box has been compromised because my second key is lost and get them to change the lock and issue me two new keys.  The fee will be small compared to the drama of having to revoke the second key and it would be who knows how long before she ever found out because she'll go a whole year without ever going to fetch the mail there.  I feel somewhat like I'm starting to get my head wrapped around it.

The party interested in my out of state property won't go away.  Perhaps that is an omen that the necessary pieces are starting to fall into place.

All steps in a good direction.  |iiii

Couper, I'm not fully caught up on your situation but of what I read, I admire the thoughtful planning you're doing. Bank account, separate mail box, interviewing lawyers.

One thing I learned the hard way is that your lawyer works for you. You're the boss. But it's a strange kind of relationship because they're the experts on the law and you're the expert on your life.

Are you telling them what your goals are? Maybe that's a helpful way to engage them if you aren't doing that already? Then ask them what strategy and tactics they would advise.

Then compare.

Your wife will likely want the opposite of anything you propose, even if it's in her best interests. You will probably have to think through how to negotiate with that mindset and then advise your lawyer, even if he/she has experience with high-conflict divorces.

A lot of us go through these divorces managing a truck load of guilt and obligation that can also seem a bit batty to lawyers. I think they size up the degree to which we are rational actors and since they aren't in the business of therapy, let out as much rope as we deem appropriate.

It just adds another element to the client/attorney relationship. You may be the boss of this situation, something that can be both good and bad.

Thank you for all of this.  I think you are completely correct.  The attorney / client relationship aspect is not completely lost on me.  My work is technical, not law, but my role would be described as "expert on topic".  A customer still has to provide their input and guidance, but I advise them on what is feasible or realistic.  It's kind of a dance and ultimate cooperation is required for a good outcome.

Your point about her going the opposite way is well-taken.  You have may have seen me state elsewhere that during a rare moment of unfiltered truth when dysregulating (or whatever it was), she once stated, "Whenever somebody tells me to do something, I feel compelled to do the opposite".  While she has been more level-headed these last few months than I have ever seen in the last 14 years, I know for a fact that the monster still lurks and this may be enough to send her spinning back out of control.  She has a documented history of cutting off her own nose thinking it will spite the other person's face.  She is either at a point of acceptance or she is going to go 180 on everyone that has been feeding her this narrative that a miracle is waiting around the corner.  I can't tell which.  

My hope is that she will accept it and cooperate.  Past experience tells me that she will not.  If anything, I think she may be in a better place for this than she ever has been because she has this new support network of rescuers that would be happy to circle the wagons around her.  They can have her.  They'll probably find her somewhere cheap to live.  Maybe they'll give her some sort of flexible mom-job.  She will do no more than she has to so that she can keep her "most favored victim status" intact.  She actually has such a job now, but about two years ago just decided she wasn't really going to do it in any meaningful way anymore and all without telling me.  I can make in two hours what would take her a ten hour day.  For years I implored her to do the housewife thing (like she claimed to dream of) and make it so I could get up each morning and get out the door to work.  So that we could sync-up and be partners like we talked about, but there has never been any partnership.  It's sit up late on the couch watching t.v., surfing conspiracy theories, picking fights on Facebook, and waking up later than anyone else in the house.  Then interrupt my day and expect everything to come to a halt to take care of things that could have been done the night before or in the morning.  However, she has a bachelors degree (I do not) and she was 33 when we got married, so she can't claim the whole "never worked, gave up my education to be a homemaker" thing.  She got a very useful degree and then decided to be nothing more than a low-level admin.

Sorry, that got bigger than I expected.  Just sort of came spilling out, but maybe it gives you some background, at least.

Since my last post in this thread, I have been compiling information for the lawyer, making notes about assets, and other general questions that revolve around some estate planning that my parents are doing.  I found a way to fund the bank account without raising eyebrows and keep finding a way to put one foot in front of the other.

Today I finished that information packet, took an assortment of past tax returns from the file cabinet, and delivered it to the lawyer with a check for his retainer.  I have no clue how far that money will go, but some of the things I asked of him were things that are related to, but also not part of, pursuing separation.  Things I needed answered anyway. 

I made it clear to him that I want to see some general numbers about what it will take to buy my way out of this mess rather than just pulling the trigger and hoping for the best because, with time, I have options at my disposal.

I think that my uBPDw is starting to understand that a better life awaits her without me and during a discussion the other night, I stated to her clearly that I am totally detached from her, that she is free to pursue whatever kookery she wants to pursue (which she acknowledged with amazement that I do allow without interference despite manipulating people by telling them that I exercise control over her), and that I agreed with her words that "this is no way to live".  She is right and while it is no way to live, what she would expect of me for her to be happy is to capitulate and participate in all of these new interests that she has that I loathe.  She could not deny that I am still the same person I was 15 years ago.  There's more, but why ramble on.  One thing I do know is she loves money more than me.  I can't buy her a house and a new car and make it so she doesn't have to work for the rest of her life, but I think the fair (in a legal sense, not me throwing money out the window) payout she has coming is probably a good bit more than she has imagined and that might go a long way toward getting her to cooperate.

So, that's what happened today.  I'm very curious to see what the lawyer hands back.

Something I forgot to put on my question sheet to the lawyer (and I know this is a longshot) but if an amicable split can be negotiated where the kids are concerned regarding visitation and time and rights and all that, can that be settled between the two parties without the kids having to be interviewed by social workers and court oversight and all that other horrible stuff I read about on here?  I would feel a lot better about things if I knew I could spare them all of that and uBPDw harbors such strong objections to any kind of 3rd party critique that I think that could be good motivation to get her to play along.

 

The short answer is that yes, that is technically and legally possible.

The longer answer is that you need to know your kids' mom's "currency" in order to get her to sign a legally binding document that protects your rights to time with the kids and protects the kids' rights to time with both parents (whatever the time split would be).

You mention that she is "financially motivated".

While it is frowned upon to link child support with parenting time, perhaps there's a creative way to come up with "tangible things you can concede to her" that would make her "feel like she is winning and you are losing" when in fact you are actually securing your parenting time. Check with your L to see what is seen as OK in your area. It may or may not be worth your time to have $ related incentives for her as you try to negotiate PT.

You also mention her objections to getting 3rd parties involved (makes sense; some pwBPD are "allergic" to having neutral light shined on their behaviors). Can this revulsion somehow be leveraged to get signed agreement for your parenting time? "Well, this plan in front of us is really fair... it'd be horrible if some awful mediator had to come look at it and tell us what to do... let's just sign it now so that they don't have to get involved"

Additionally, there may be certain days, holidays, practices, etc, that she would feel like if she "got control of", would feel like "she was winning". Yet you could use those days/holidays/practices and "grudgingly concede" them to her in exchange for more PT. For example, if she would "feel like the better parent" if she had the kids on Easter Sunday, then can you "grudgingly concede" Easter Sunday to her every year, in exchange for... you having 80% parenting time? That's just an example, of course, but that's the idea. She may gravitate towards some wacky specific things that would make her feel like she got the upper hand on you, when in reality you are gaining the lion's share of daily parenting time.

DH conceded Christmas Day to the kids' mom every year, which is EXTREMELY atypical... but we get Christmas Eve every year, and often will "do Christmas early" with the kids. This means that they aren't "burned out on Christmas" with us and are still excited. It gives us flexibility to get together with family at a time when everyone's schedule is open, versus panicking about "who can come on the 25th".

So if you can get into a mindset change about how it's not the day of the holiday that's the most important thing (though I do understand that for some practices, it is), that can be a huge bargaining chip for you. Keep the long game in mind -- it's not really about who has the kids on Thanksgiving day, it's about getting the majority of parenting time so the kids have a stable, peaceful base with you.

Another area of leverage/concession can be if she has a self-image as a "martyr mom". Does she "bend over backwards" to "do everything" and "nobody is grateful for her sacrifices"? Is there a way to give her PT for activities where she gets noticed for "being amazing" but you get more PT even if it's less public/more quotidian? I.e. does she want PT for 2 hours every afternoon to take the kids to extracurriculars? Would she take that if you got the rest of the PT? (extreme example, but that's the general idea).

Food for thought.

I also did some of the things kells76 suggested when I was separated and working out how to make a dissolution work. I knew my H and that $ talks, so I worked things out on paper to his advantage but to my safety and need to be D from his business choices. I literally showed him how he would get more than I would (part of it was his inheritance which was his to begin with). We didn't have young children, so I didn't have to deal with that. With his N nature, he took the bait and didn't argue. I made sure I got what was important to me for my financial future and let the rest go.

You've taken a big step, Couper. I'm glad that you're preparing and planning and being wise.

 :hug:
Wools

Thanks for the thorough reply, Kells!  Oh yes, I would certainly have any agreement on paper.  I can't even trust her to give me the same answer to something five seconds after she says it!




I like this angle.



I actually have great hope for this.  More worrisome to her than subjecting the kids to that would be subjecting herself to it. 



Yes, very much so.  She will definitely what all of Sunday so she can drag the kids to her new church.  Anyone who doesn't agree with the specifics of her beliefs is a pagan, so she would be glad to show up her pagan ex to all her new friends and accept pats on the back for taking control of their spiritual upbringing.  I know it is just an example, but I can't see her allowing me 80% and I wondered if she'd even do 50/50.  That's a big question mark to me.  She can have the holidays.  I can make the most of any day.  The only thing I don't like about that is if I just said take all the holidays as a negotiating tool, she would twist it into me being selfish and not wanting my kids around on special days.  The other thing she will try is in the fall I have one specific event where I take off for a week every year (a combination of work and play).  She would love to screw that up for me but I don't think she can.  My kids are old enough now that I'd just take them.  I'd have taken them already, but what I didn't want is her to come along!

My parents live very far away and to take them for a visit it is a minimum nine day trip to make it worth it.  I'm curious about how to balance that out.  She goes to her parents all the time and for a week at a time.  They are only two hours away.  Mine are an 18 hour drive. 



I like this.



Excellent strategy.  I would like there to be some flexibility because with my work I could take them on impromptu road trips, but I understand that this new way of things may scuttle that.



Yes, like the church thing I mentioned above.  She does drag them to a lot of things anyway (though I think half the time it's more for her to have "mommy time" with other moms than for their own advancement).  What's going to make this hard is the homeschool thing and her entitlement mentality that she was never going to have to work again.  She is going to have to start taking all that time she uses to bicker with people on social media and start making money again because having to provide a free ride for her would bankrupt me.  Very curious to see what the lawyer says about numbers in this respect and how much of the financial obligation will land on her shoulders.  I could see sending her away with a chunk of cash and replacing her old used car with a newer used car, but that chunk of cash would not give her years to live on. 

As an example, one of the very first warning signs soon after we got married was over life insurance.  We got quotes and whatnot and I did the math and said okay, we can afford this big of a policy (equal) for each of us.  Oh, no no no.  There was supposed to be no policy on her but double the money on me because if I died she might have to go back to work.  I explained that I thought this was a partnership, what about if I wind up being the survivor?  I can't afford to be left with nothing and raise kids on my own -- "Well you can just work harder, but I would have to go back to work".  After much fighting she finally gave in and we have equal policies to this day, but from that moment on I always felt like I was nothing but a free ride to her.  I was so floored by her brazen entitlement.  I had not seen any of that beforehand.   



Indeed -- thanks again!

Hi Wools!  Thank you for your kind words.  They mean the world to me.  The child thing is the hard part to achieve balance with all of this.  Otherwise, I have a few carrots I can dangle similar to what you did.

Whatever the payout would be, I look at it divided over 40 years and it looks like a bargain to me!  We've all heard these divorced types that forever moan about what it "cost" them, but what is the cost of a life ruined?  Quite frankly, a lot of what they pay would have been paid if they had stayed married.  Just like if I were to replace her car -- I'd rather give her a car and send her down the road in it than to have her stay and have to get her another car and hear it coming up the driveway every day!   

More important, would a signed agreement alone stand up in court?  In some areas, unless it is filed with the court and maybe even has the judge's signature, it means little or nothing.


Courts expect parents to alternate holidays, any a parent didn't get one year they can get the next.  Courts have a time-tested long list of holidays, just make sure to strike out any that neither of you observe.  Regarding birthdays, most jurisdictions only include the children's birthdays, parents' birthdays are NOT deemed crucial.  Also, there is a hierarchy to parenting time exceptions and priorities:
(1) holidays
(2) vacations (generally 2 or 3 weeks max per calendar year)
      can be 1 or 2 weeks each;
      remember, notices and not timid requests for approval
      generally no distance restrictions, except international
(3) regularly scheduled parenting time

Good input and that is not lost on me.  I will get clarification pertaining to how things work in my locale.



All good stuff.  Thank you for the clarification.  If I recall, I think you went down this road pretty early in your children's lives.  My son is closing in on 13 and in no time will be an adult.  I wish my daughter were a little older, but still, she'll soon be of an age where she has a phone and a car and is able to make up her own mind about things.  I have no more than eight years of this ahead of me and I'm hoping that being closer to the end of the tunnel makes it easier to swallow.

You can consider looking up "boilerplate" parenting time schedules for your county, especially ones for 50/50 as a start, and considering if you could live with that. Then have that, or something darn close, be what you submit to be signed off on by a judge.

I suspect it wouldn't be a good look for her to balk at agreeing to a completely normal, run of the mill parenting time agreement. She'd have to have some kind of justification and she probably won't be able to collect any meaningful documentation for her concerns.

The plus side of selecting a "boilerplate" 50/50 (or 75/25 in your favor) parenting plan is that if she objects to it, the onus is on her to show why it wouldn't be best. So, you wouldn't be doing her work for her. She'd have to explain within the legal system why a very, very, very normal agreement doesn't work, and she probably won't be able to.

The minus side is if she dysregulates and isn't having great executive functioning, she may lash out by making wild and destructive accusations. I.e., instead of listing "5 documented and pertinent reasons why it'd be better for the kids to be with me 60/40", that is, responding at a moderate 4/10 level, she may immediately jump to "a 45 page email of my feelings of how Couper is a sadistic abuser and beats the kids so they should only be with me forever", that is, responding at an 11/10 because she has no skills at effective compromise.

Check with your L to see how it typically goes in your county to propose a standard PP and what typically happens if the other parent objects to it/won't agree. It's just speculation right now that the "work" of showing why it wouldn't be best would fall on her. Would be good to figure out the rules in your area -- like "if in 30 days Wife does not produce substantial documentation refuting 50/50, it automatically gets signed by the judge".

More good stuff.  Thank you!  I tried looking up schedules for my county but all I could find is a blank per se form for self-representation.  That gives me an idea of all the various things under consideration, but makes no suggestion about how it would look 50/50 or otherwise.  This is not a big county and their online resources are not as detailed as more populus areas.

I'll add that and everything else to my list to ask the lawyer about.

It's an interesting strategy, but I could see the 75/25 suggestion getting shot down outright on account of the homeschool thing, though in reality that might actually work because school is only a few hours per day and she'll need the rest of the time to actually work and make money to support herself.

The other night when we went down the rabbit hole on a few topics, I raised the issue of how she won't let me take them away overnight but she has the luxury of doing that whenever she wants -- "but I've never been away from them and you have".  I told her the only thing stopping that is her -- be an adult and be by yourself for a few days:  "I can't do that".  So, that mindset is going to make any custody agreement more difficult, no doubt.   

My understanding is that sites like Our Family Wizard and CustodyXChange are well known and pretty standard coparenting/scheduling sites.

CXC lists a ton of example schedules, with how it'd look on a calendar. Here's their page on 50/50 examples and the pros/cons of 50/50:

https://www.custodyxchange.com/topics/schedules/50-50/7-examples.php

They also have links to other time split examples, with pros and cons listed.

This is a pretty good link, too, on how to make your PT schedule and what to consider in order for it to be legally accepted:

https://www.custodyxchange.com/topics/schedules/overview/schedule.php

...

Also, if your county does not list examples, look at counties next to your county, or counties with higher population cities in your state. We are in a larger city in our state but like yours, our county did not list specific parenting schedule examples. I researched many other counties in our state in order to understand that, sigh, what Mom was demanding Dad accept did not match even the bare minimum of any other county around. Also, when COVID hit and Mom wanted us to either not see the kids, or not go to work if we wanted to see the kids (!), I had to reference another county's court system's COVID PT guidelines to again, support our position that no, we were not going to "just not go to work" in order to see the kids, that that was not legally recommended or required. Yay, fun times.

...

Given that you are the one helping the kids with HW (i.e., my understanding is that "mom assigns the HW and leaves, the kids work on HW, and Dad helps with HW") and getting your son educational intervention, one thought is to "ask for more than you think you'll get" and work down from there. That is to say, just because she defines herself as "the one homeschooling the kids" doesn't mean she "owns" seven hours per day of the kids' time. So start/continue thinking of yourself from the "up" position versus the "down" position. Find and frame things you're already doing as showing that you are a very involved father that is an equally valuable parent as Mom. Also, if she's anything like DH's kids' mom, she will weirdly minimize time she already has with the kids doing schooling as "not quality time" and them propose splitting the remaining time in the day with you. I.e., she will say "but because it's educational, it's not either parent's parenting time, so it doesn't count as mine, so in order for it to be even, you get 2 hours per afternoon and I get 2 hours per afternoon with them, then it's a 50/50 split, and also time when they're asleep doesn't count as my parenting time". She may try to both say "homeschooling isn't real parenting time" and "when the kids are asleep isn't real parenting time" but not cede either to you. Just my guess.

If you start by proposing that the kids are with you 75/25, that gives you room to "negotiate down" so she feels like "she's winning time from you" and is "making you lose". Don't start out by suggesting/submitting a PP that is actually what you want. Find a boilerplate example from OFW, CXC, or a county near you, that is more time than you "think is fair" because you need negotiation space. "Worst case scenario" is that she doesn't fight it and the kids are with you more than you planned on, which is a win for them and you can always figure out child care later. Given that your kids are a little older, CC may be less of a concern in your PP time split suggestions.

Thank you very much.  I had no idea about the CXC site.  That really helps paint a more clear picture about what various options look like.

Your other examples don't surprise me.  We both help with the homework part.  She doesn't lift a finger with the outside support part.  What you say about how PT is calculated, I could very much see her doing that (particularly if a lawyer recommended it to her or whatnot).  Also, if homeschool totals three actual hours each day, after this I could see it magically becoming six.  I wish I knew how these other moms in the same curriculum execute their schooling at home -- hours spent per day, working on a real schedule, etc. -- to have some kind of standard to weigh it against.

Child care is not an issue for me.  I work from home and have managed both before.  I can go in when I want to check on them.  They are old enough to heat up their own lunch if they want.  If this were five years ago it may be a little different, but given their ages and how much freedom I have to structure my day, I could do it 100% if that's what I was given. 

I remember having to research this many years ago:

"In trying to equalize a parenting schedule, do you count “sleep time” and “school time” or only “awake time”?"

https://www.fieldsdennis.com/childcustodylawyer

Hopefully you will never need this information.

Good grief.  Let's hope not!

Equal time status seems be be a big hurdle for IRS filings.  IRS seems to rely on majority of overnights per year to determine which parent gets child refund/credit matters.  IRS form 8332 specifies when a non-custodial parent can claim the children on which years, etc.  Previously it was sufficient for the court order to spell out how each year was addressed.  Not any more.

(Thank you for the above, ForeverDad.)

A few days ago I had my first "real" sit-down with the lawyer.  It was a good 45 minute meeting. We see eye-to-eye on a lot.  He says if I can negotiate the things I asked about above (settlement / payoff, custody, child support, etc.) it is a matter of us hashing things out between ourselves and filing it all with the court.  He was very clear that we want to keep court intervention out as much as possible.  uBPDw does not have the means to hire an attorney and her parents are broke, so I don't know where she'd get any outside support to pursue an aggressive legal angle and, as opposed as she is to a third-party telling her what to do, I think she might just accept an offer and move forward.  He even said child support can be taken care of and paid privately with the right deal.  Yes, I can hear all of you laughing.

If she decided to go nuclear, she would just ruin me and only the lawyers would win.  

The financial aspect does not look as promising as I originally hoped.  Basically, she gets a check for 75%, I get one for 25%, and my other end of it is in retaining this house / shop from where I work and the equity tied up in it belongs to me.  I was hoping to have some kind of cushion when it was all said an done.  Of course now, mortgage rates have shot up, so reworking the loan will make my expenses go up.  I asked him to work up some kind of idea of what he would see my child support obligations being and he said he would email that to me.  Maybe my cash flow levels out if I unload some of my old obligations that get replaced with child support.

The only thing that even allows me to consider all of this is selling my out of state property.  I'm not supposed to call the lawyer again until I have a deal inked on that (I guess because he knows otherwise, I'm sunk).  After a lot of conferring with my dad, we both came up with a price that was very close.  I presented that to the buyer tonight and, pending inspection, she was enthusiastic about it (which then makes me think I left money on the table, but maybe not).  There is a good payday from it, but most all of it will go to uBPDw to buy my freedom.  That place needs a better owner than me, but it still stings being the one to sell the old family property after almost 90 years.  A place that she knew before getting married was very important to me, paid me lip service about supporting my wishes with it, and then turned around and spent the last 14 years spewing nothing but hate about it.  She'll be happy to collect on it, though, and will probably feel entitled to 100% of it.  Money has always been more important to her than me.  

My mind has been going a dozen different directions all week from longing to be free, to hoping I don't wind up living in a cardboard box -- to cherishing all the alone time I get with my kids, to hoping they don't hate me after the fact.  Of course, now I've temporarily lost my philosophical side again and ask myself endlessly what I did do to deserve all of this?  My intentions have always been pure.  I just wanted a happy nuclear family like my grandparents raised and instead I've been living under the boot heel of someone that hates herself more than she hates me.  I guess I'm just thankful that I'm not caught in the middle like some by feeling any affection for her.  There is zero.  I think what I've finally decided is that I'm just going to keep putting one foot in front of the other until I get to the finish line because if I don't, I know what the rest of my life is going to look like and it isn't pretty.

On Monday I take my son to the educational therapist I've been talking to.  He took it well when I told him.  It's something she should have been enthusiastic about doing together, but all I can see when I close my eyes and think about the times I brought it up are all the times she few into a disordered rage and accused me of only wanting to do it to make her feel stupid... except this last time because now I guess she's following the orders of these rescuers who have all the good intentions that she always accused me of never having.        

As insane as it sounds, DH and the kids' mom do this and it works. It is kind of unbelievable that it works, but it does. It does mean that she gets more $$ than she would if it went through the state (because the government wants its cut  :( ) so that is probably the motivation.

Not sure if you'll need it, but keep the idea because it could be a good negotiation point for you.

That's a very good point because once the parasite class is involved, everyone wants their cut and the overhead just goes up and up.  The world is now littered with non-producers that want their slice of the pie.

He was also pointing out that if the court is set to decide, they can decide things in a much more unfavorable way and maybe that's part of their motivation -- that their cut is based on a percentage of their ruling.  Just guessing, all of this is very new to me. 

Right. So if part of your W's "currency" is actual currency, and/or how it makes her feel (like she "won more" from you), then it's a good negotiating piece to have. "Sure, we could agree to County Plan X, but if we can agree to Our Family Plan Y, then you will get $N more per month than with Plan X, it's up to you"

So you don't "let her know" that the court might decide parenting time in a way that is worse for you (even though maybe that's connected to less $ for her if CS goes thru court). You DO let her know that the court might decide child support in a way that is worse for her, so you incentivize her to cooperate with "out of court settlement" instead (without telling her that settling out of court is more favorable for your PT).

Any and all mediation, negotiation, settlement, etc, out of court, has to be framed as how it's better for her. Saying anything is better for you will get instant rejection, and trying to convince her something is better for the kids turns into a war of "who is the better parent, I am because I know the kids better than you, I'm the mom, blah blah blah". It all has to be "how agreeing on this is a win for you ".

I get it and think you are 100% right about all of it.  Fortunately, I think the lawyer gets that, too.  I'm a pretty direct and fair person so having to play a game like this is just more acting to me and I'm not an actor.  Hopefully, he can take this approach and run with it.

She's going to think that we should be able to part ways and her lifestyle will not change and that simply cannot be.  That will be the hardest part.  It's like the life insurance thing I spelled out before.  Damn everybody else, it's all about her perceived needs, yet she would be outraged if she had to offer to anyone what she expects from everyone else.   

That makes me wonder if coming up with 2 or 3 proposals might be the way to go.

Proposal 1, she "loses" 10% of current $.
Proposal 2, she "loses" 20% of current $.
Proposal 3, she "loses" 30% of current $.

But, you have already decided that any of the 3 proposals work for you. This puts the decision in her hands -- she is going to want to "punish" you and will select Plan #1, but you have already decided you can field that, and it's more that once again, you are creating a scenario where ultimately you get what's workable for you, but in a way where she feels like she is "getting the best of you".

I do this with the kids sometimes -- "Do you want to clean the bathroom now, or in 15 minutes, or in 30 minutes?" Not cleaning the bathroom isn't an option that is even on the table, so the kids get caught up in picking "the best option" and agree to cleaning the bathroom in the process of trying to get the best deal for themselves.

Your approach is right and the lawyer understands that I can't take on any kind of deal that I can't meet financially, but once he starts talking, it sounds like there are a lot of unknowns and that bad financial deals occasionally happen.

I'm not sure how three proposals would work in terms of her having to decide.  She can't even decide the most mundane things in her regular day-to-day life.

Oh, that is well understood here  :(

Typically if I have to make a time sensitive decision and the kids' mom needs to be involved (i.e. I am taking the kids to something on her time), I phrase it as:

"Hi Kids' Mom, does it work for your schedule if SD14 does X activity next Thursday from 5-6? If I don't hear back from you by Saturday evening, I'll assume it's just fine! Have a great day, kells76"

So you can do the same in any proposal or as an overarching umbrella for all proposals:

"Mr. Couper presents proposals A, B, and C. Mrs. Couper may select whichever proposal she prefers and shall email Mr. Couper and Lawyers with the selection by 10 p.m. on Day, Date. If Mr. Couper and Lawyers have not received an email by 10 p.m. on Day, Date, then Mr. Couper shall select a proposal."

Convert her non-compliance and stonewalling and footdragging into her making a choice. I.e., non-response is a response that frees you to do what you see fit.

Wow, you're really good at this.  Can I just hire you?

You must be a saint to have taken on all that you have in your life.  I can't imagine willfully walking into a situation like you have. 

Well, I had a lot to learn, and people here like Livednlearned, david, ForeverDad, Panda39, all those old timers,  *) , taught me so much.

Not sure there is a pay rate that could adequately compensate me for adding more BPD to my life  lol though I toy with the idea now and then of doing independent consulting. But then I think about the drama. And then I think instead -- maybe DH and I will build a cabin in the woods away from people and live there forever with no internet. Yes, I think we'll do that.


I had no idea what I was walking into, which helps when walking into stuff like this.

I'm so sorry!  I guess I was operating under the assumption that since it had already gone through one cycle, that it was all hashed out before you arrived on the scene.

Yes, cabin in the woods... with a moat around it... and maybe add some alligators!

pwBPD don't necessarily pursue an aggressive legal angle. That's not what ends up costing many of us a fortune.

What costs money is usually a consequence of stonewalling.

I gave my n/BPDx the house. Gave it to him.

That cost me multiple trips to court, just trying to compel n/BPDx to refinance the house. There were two contempts of court connected to it and it ended with me hiring a real estate attorney on top of my family law attorney.

He stonewalled me giving him the house.

n/BPDx was an attorney himself, and he ended up refinancing the house with a bank but didn't roll in the home equity. Instead, he wrote a hand-written note saying the home equity wasn't included in the refi but it wouldn't be a problem for me legally because he would make sure it wasn't.

Right.

The point being that you will have to do your best to make use of any leverage you have to avoid stonewalling. If she cares about money, then hope she cares about it more than staying negatively engaged, which for some people, is better than not being engaged at all. That's what stonewalling is. Negative engagement.

Leverage could be what kells76 suggested. It could also be: if both parties agree to sign this proposal by day/date, Mrs. Couper will receive a lump sum of $ by day/date. Any agreement after this date will be dispensed in payments of $ monthly until day/date.

Think really really hard about how to structure the terms and pace of your negotiation, and how you present it. Maybe you set the attorney up to be the bad guy, the one who is pushing hard for this and that -- my attorney even suggested I do this in the early stages of my divorce.

You can also do this with the state, setting things up so that she understands that money you want going to her is going to the state. "I guess if we do it this way, the state gets a cut of this money that should be going to you."

And like kells76 suggested, hold something back so you can give her a win when she fusses that she isn't getting enough. The need to be in a one-up position is often very powerful. Allow her to feel that she is winning something so that you can lose less.

Your attorney is probably not motivated to set the negotiation up to the degree you need it given the pathology involved. You'll have to think carefully about how many steps are necessary and what each one should include to minimize the stonewalling.

I've told her in the past that she craves negative reinforcement.  That must be the same thing.  It's one of the tools in her toolbox.  Thank you for all the sound advice.

She will never have seen so much money in her life and I have to keep the house or else my business is sunk, so in this case it's kind of the opposite of your deal.  Even if I walked away from it, she couldn't pay the note on this place, let alone maintain it.  These people in this rescuer church will probably rally around her and find her somewhere cheaper than market price to live and maybe even throw a pity job at her.  

A big part of me wishes I would have done all this a year ago, but at that point not all the stars had aligned.  I guess things happen in their own time for a reason.  A year ago, mentally she was in a horrible state, but she probably would have been a true nightmare to deal with then.  Now she seems much more accepting of things after six months with this "prayer minister".  She knows something is coming.  I have stated explicitly that I am unhappy and feel nothing for her.  I have been consistent with zero affection for years.  Maybe she has it in her head enough to just go and run away to her new support system.

However, she is still not repentant and I believe all the old demons still lurk.  In the rare exchange we had the other night, I told her that I can't see past 14 years of all the rages and meltdowns and false accusations that have happened in the past and she did not show one ounce of remorse, so I know she is not truly fixed.  I'm sure in her distorted mind, all of it was justified.      

It's tough, I know.

The main challenge for you will be focusing on what is about to happen not what has happened.

If your relationship is over, the past and what she will or won't do next is no longer your concern unless it is related to the disentanglement of your marriage financially.

It's an eyes open time. My example of giving away the house is meant to illustrate how intrinsic stonewalling is to the process. You could give your wife all your money and the house and it will still likely be an order of magnitude more difficult than anticipated.

Lawyers do not help with this part, it's not in the interests to help.

The negative engagement is driven by traits of the disorder. Terrible things happening to her is probably important to her belongingness to her spiritual group, and that is important to her sense of victimhood, an identity she likely clings to out of maladaptive coping mechanisms.

So this divorce may feel existential.

She will mine this abandonment for something equally important to her as money and that's where the challenges can surface.

The more you can focus on how her underlying BPD logic will impact the divorce, the less conflict you'll have. You won't have no conflict, but you can have less. Whether she repents or not (likely not) is a ship that has sailed if divorce is all but certain for you both.

When you feel the bile in the back of your throat rising about what she has done or is doing, check yourself. Think about what motivates that behavior and then apply that knowledge to the upcoming stages of your divorce.

Does that make sense?

If you are hoping she will repent or make this easy, the last 14 years should be your roadmap as to what to expect next.

Perfect sense.  I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.  I am under no illusion that repentance is coming or that I expect it (or for that matter, even want it).  What I meant to convey is this new image of herself is a facade.  It's coupled to this idea that she's going to live as the image of what a godly woman should be and it's supposed to erase my memory of all that was.  That is simply not going to happen.  When coupled to the fact that there is no repentance, I know it's all just a sham.

I think you have nailed negative engagement.  What I saw and called out years ago was self-sabotaging any situation in life, large or small, so she could claim her victimhood.  I'm curious to see how being presented with the divorce itself may actually appeal to her on some level.  Amongst her support group, she will have attained a level of victim status like she has never known before.  

Thank you for taking the time to explain these different strategies to me.
      

I'll add a "big picture view" comment here, in addition to LnL's wise advice & perspective.

I'm seeing multiple strands in what you are and will be dealing with, each one with "micro" and "macro" levels:

1. untangling the marriage, including: separation, divorce, lawyers/legal stuff, reaching finality with court orders, untangling finances

2. parenting your children post-divorce, including: combatting parental alienation-type behaviors/"pathogenic parenting" from their mom, learning and doing non-intuitive ("jiu-jitsu") parenting, building your skills at validating them appropriately

3. having a coparenting relationship with your kids' mom, including: how to minimize conflict, how to stick to the PP when she won't, how to make it the "least worst" coparenting possible (sigh, notice I don't say "best" as that isn't always an option), using BIFF for coparenting communications, separating your thoughts/feelings about her as your partner from how you treat her as a coparent

4. doing work on grieving/processing your marriage, including: what you had wanted, what drew you to that relationship, what you contributed to the challenges, what you were not responsible for, possible family of origin questions, working with your experience of feeling "duped"/"tricked"

Like LnL was getting at, you will be least effective in any area when you allow feelings about one area to bleed over into another. It can be difficult for some people to stop their anger, grief, sadness, and resentment about how their partner treated them, from impacting the coparenting relationship. "Why should I treat him/her with respect when I pick up the kids? He/she always blamed me and put me down for no reason" type stuff.

You will be most effective in all areas when you "keep stuff in its own lane", as LnL was getting at:


Whatever big energy you feel about how she treated you, just for example -- either channel the energy and its content to somewhere you can process it, like a thread on the Detaching board, or a counselor, or -- recognize the energy, separate it from the content, and use that burst of energy to positively build up another area. If the energy associated with "what she did" stays connected to concrete memories of "what she did", yet isn't directed towards "processing how I feel and think about what she did", and instead both get pointed towards, for example, coming up with a parenting plan, or interacting with her at an exchange, things get really toxic.

So, like I've seen you doing already here with separating this thread (which might be category #1 of "untangling the marriage") from your homeschooling thread (which might be category #2 or #3 or both, depending on how things go), I'd encourage you to continue to name/identify/have awareness of the different channels for your thoughts and energy and efforts right now.

When those lines get blurry, or when we aren't intentional about recognizing the energy behind a memory/thought and working with it, we end up sabotaging ourselves. I think you're a person who values integrity, so I could see you as someone who has the capacity to be honest looking inside himself, and saying, "You know, I told myself that my hurt at her unjust behavior wasn't impacting what I said to her in front of the kids at pickup, but if I'm being honest with myself, it did", for example.

I think this might be getting rambl-y, so I'll go to the next point -- the macro vs micro levels, which again, LnL was highlighting.

For category 1, "micro" is stuff like I tend to focus on: exact wording, details to watch out for, clauses to put in, specific PPs to look at. LnL is pointing out the bigger picture: to get ANY kind of agreement or compromise or plan signed, you have to know big picture what drives and motivates your W. Additionally, you have to remember... BPD is a disorder. Being fair, offering more, being "the bigger person", believing she will see what truly benefits her, hoping she will put the kids first -- probably not going to happen. The best thing big picture you can do is build in natural consequences/outcomes/"bowling bumpers" so that if/when she acts disordered, it doesn't derail your life. Yeah, she may never see that much $$$ again in her life, but it's her feeling in that millisecond moment that she will prioritize above all, and even if you offered her all that and more, if she feels lower than you, she'll shoot herself in the foot rather than be agreeable. So, that's the macro view -- making decisions and writing wording, doing all that micro stuff, with the macro guiding it.

Same for parenting the kids -- there will moments where they say stuff like "Mom says you always yelled at her and hated her". So you're dealing with a micro moment. It is so tempting to JADE and defend ourselves, to "tell the kids the facts", to "set the record straight". But there will probably be an active, though possibly covert and/or unconscious (though it's the same effect either way) to undermine your parenting and have Mom be "the chosen parent". It is SO imperative to not take the bait in the micro level and to think long term about trust building with your kids. Reject the impulse to say "I never yelled at her, in fact, Mom was the one yelling at me, and I have all the recordings to prove it". The jiu-jitsu move is to center how your kids are feeling: "Honey, how did you feel when Mom said that to you?" THAT is what will build trust and counter the poison, more than any "facts" or "record".

...

I know this is a lot, just wanted to talk about some bigger structural stuff, like keeping different work areas in their lanes, and knowing that detail and big picture need to be balanced to be effective.

Wrapping up for now...

kells76

Thank you for all of this.  It will be valuable to reference back to in the future as things move along.  No doubt, the situation will be dynamic and ever-changing.  Certainly not what I envisioned doing with my life in middle-age.

My ex didn't have the money for a lawyer.  No problem, I'm sure she signed a agreement that their fees would be deducted from the equity she would receive from the sale of our house.  I bought her out so I paid cash as her share of the accumulated equity.

My ex could not handle choices I offered her.  One time she she was to get our child then the next day was my holiday time.  She couldn't decide which of my offers to choose and so she blurted out she'd just keep him.  Not possible, but it was then I realized I should have just told her how I would handle it.  The less a pwBPD gets to choose from you, the less likely it can go sideways.

I often write the we here in support are typically very fair people, it's one of our fine qualities.  However, when dealing with these sorts of acting-out behaviors and perspectives, our sense of fairness is a downside.  So beware of your otherwise great sense of super-fairness and super niceness, it can sabotage negotiations.  Court doesn't care whether you are fair, nice or not.  And your ex will likely get a more than fair outcome.

A saying I've repeated regarding court... The person behaving poorly seldom faces consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.

Believe me, I totally get this, but I know it's also a reminder that needs to be repeated.  It's too easy to look the other way.

I think the lawyer gets where the dividing line is.  In this county, there is only one judge for this and he seems to understand how she operates and how the larger system operates hence his warning that we want to settle this ourselves because the court stands a very good chance of doing something that is not in our interest.  That said, I'll see what more he has to say.  I was a bit discouraged that he said with my out-of-state property (that I have owned since well before she came along) that he would just split the proceeds 50/50.  I have owned that place 33% without her and 66% with.  In my thinking she would get half of the 66%, but the 33% is mine.  As it's going, there isn't going to be much of anything left for me.  Fairness to someone else is one thing, but I also don't think it's right to be unfair to myself.

We didn't even get to dividing up the time with the kids and I have no vision for what that would look since homeschool would continue and she will have to get some kind of job.  I would do the ultimate "unfair" thing and take them 100% of the time if I could but I know that wouldn't happen.  She can't even stand for me to take them out of town overnight as it is (she uses them as a crutch) so I could see an ugly battle coming over that.

I'm miserable with all of this.  Just so damn miserable.  I can't see riding it out another eight years yet I still can't see how any of this will go.  He said if she were to cooperate (ha ha) the whole thing could be settled and done in 90 days, but I have a hard time seeing it going down like that, especially since I still have a property to sell.  Even uBPDw said recently, "This is no way to live".  It makes me wish someone would come along and sweep her off her feet and she would run away.  It seems like from the posts on this forum that the only ones that run away are the ones that have partners that don't want them to.

Sorry, just venting.  I know most of that doesn't merit a response.

Why are you assuming that homeschooling would continue?

Several reasons:

I don't outright object to all of it.

There are things I don't like about public school.

Trying to end it would take legal action on my part and set off WW III.

With all the other transitions that will happen, I don't want the upset for my kids.


I would be better with it if there were some sort of outside review.  In my state, homeschooled kids are not subject to outside review if the homeschool teacher has a teaching degree and certificate (which uBPDw does).  However, as they get into higher grades, I think some kind of outside review might start to kick in.  If not, I want something added to my agreement.  This is something I plan to discuss with the educational therapist I'm taking my son to on Monday (sorry, that is a different thread if you haven't been following along).

OK, I get that rationale.

Could your parenting/custody agreement included a requirement that certain states mandated tests be passed at age or competent y levels? That way, if your son is okay in science and language arts, great! But if he has numeracy issues and is struggling with math, you have an opening for other services.

That's what I'm hoping but it's a question for the lawyer or other entity.  Now that they are moving beyond elementary age, I want to ensure that if there is more they can do that will help them get into college, that it will be done.  I don't want them graduating because "mommy said they passed" and institutions can slam the door on them.

You know, last night I tried to search for what happens when a homeschooling mom isn't up to snuff and found nothing.  The only results that come up are moms propping up moms on mommy blogs saying "you are enough even if nobody says you are!", but you know there have to be plenty more like her that are falling short.