BPDFamily.com

A short recap ( some of you may know, I have been on this forum for about 9 months) ..
I was with my diagnosed exwbpd for 3 months ( august-october 2021), fell for him like a ton of bricks, red flags started after about three weeks. Angry fits over things that did not make sense, vindictiveness, criticising my body, mind, work. Arguments all around him.. I got diagnosed with an autoimmune disease ( Crohn's)  by November, I broke up with him and finally went nc in January this year. My diagnosis didn't allow me to be around any negativity, so in that sense it was a saviour.
I landed in a vortex of darkness after we broke up. I managed to climb out by June , with help of a therapist, the shield ( crohnscolitislifestyle.com) program, my dr in the hospital, my gp, the support of my incredible friends and my dear dad. And this forum. :) I managed to get my health back, no inflammation anymore since a few months. I stuck to a healthy diet, gained some new friendships, got my focus back in my work and made some incredible progress.
Most of all, got myself back. a self that I noticed more authentic, centred and relaxed than the one before.

Last weekend my exwbpd showed up again. He contacted me a couple of weeks ago from Alaska where he usually spends the summer. I fell for him again, or still, shoot me. I doubted why we ever broke up ( helloowwwwww diagnosed BPD? zillion red flags?) I shake my head writing this.
Anyway , he was back last weekend, after six month I was looking in his big brown eyes again and it was like nothing before.
We spent the weekend together at my house. It was like a cloud of stardust followed us wherever we went. people say : oh you look so good together! .. or :you should get married!
It is so confusing.
Because I know that, I know we look great together and on paper we are a perfect match. Both self-employed successful creatives, physically we are a match from heaven. We are silly together, are quiet, talk for hours or sleep together so easily. like two cats.
But I also know his dark side.. the side that actually grew worse now.
I noticed he slid criticism in every move I made, whether it be hanging up towels, I needed to wear different shoes, I was skinny , the music I listen to is not good, the tattoo I drew for him he doesn't like, the subjects I try to initiate, the nail polish I put on is not done properly, I should pull my underwear higher because I have narrow hips, the make up I use.. and who is JXX ( male friend) ? I caught him checking my last calls and going through the pictures in my phone.
Nothing happened in these 6 months I wasn't with him. I wasn't with anyone. I was working on myself and trying to heal a broken heart. I have an equal amount of male and female friends that I show the same loyalty , and that is it.
I told him that.

After the weekend I noticed red flags increasing. He wouldn't reply on loving texts I sent him for sometimes a day. And then when he did he wouldn't acknowledge the message. I felt hurt by that .. but also that he was doing this out of insecurity or to destabilise me, I don't know. I do know I don't trust him enough to know it is random. Everything with him is reading in-between lines.
When I mentioned it hurt me that he didn't respond to anything or let a message this beautiful just go by he would go angry and give me the silent treatment again.
Eventually I tried to speak to him about it, saying I loved the weekend but didn't feel well with all the criticism he gives me.. and that I felt that afterwards. I actually felt better about myself after he was gone.. was a weird thing to realise after being with the one I am so in love with.
I tried to ask why he gave me all this negativity and said I missed his kind and loving words. He said he felt that was blocked and I caused that ( by leaving him)

To me this feels like he was splitting me black already at the time we broke up this year and somehow his diagnoses wouldn't allow him to come back from that. He made me feel in his actions that he is crazy about me but in his words he has  to somehow bring me down. he didn't use any loving language like " I missed you' or 'I love you' or kisses in texts. when I asked him about that he said his world was to shambles when we broke up and he had a hard time coming back from that. That I can understand, but I can't help feeling like he is feeding me poison berries. Taking it over to the other side and slowly tearing down what holds me up.
I said ' well, you don't seem to have a hard time living with me or being intimate with me.' which in my turn made it hard for me to trust his motivations were any other than a grudgeful witholding. Along with the criticism and belittling I felt drained  by last Tuesday already. I got stomach aches by yesterday and decided I have run away from this before it runs away with me again.
I think I feel stronger than last time.. I think I see what is going on sooner. But please give me your view, anything is welcome.

I think the best question to ask yourself is:

 What exactly are you hoping to get out of the relationship here?

 He is diagnosed so you know how this usually ends if you get more involved. Even if you are looking for a thrill or some temporary fun there is just a lot of risk to make it worth it.

 If you are looking for a long term stable loving relationship, well, run! Remember, you can’t fix them, they won’t change, it only gets worse with time, the disorder always wins at the end.

Thank you for your take on it, it does help. A bit embaressed to say this...
My doubt is the fact he keeps saying he doesn't do things to intentionally hurt me and  it is my problem that I don't trust him, I should get help, according to him.
He was diagnosed a few years back... he has therapy twice a week and is on medication.
I guess these things keep feeding my doubts ( he is working on it? maybe I am wrong/it is my insecurity? ) as well as confirmation.
I guess I miss the bigger picture.

I think you have recognized the pattern and that is a good thing.    His ~idea~ of a functioning relationship comes with a lot of destructive behavior.   

There are probably a lot of deep seated reasons for why he acts this way.    The bigger question I think is can you tolerate his behavior without damaging your health.

My Ex had a lot of the maladaptive behaviors you are describing.    Things had to be 100% perfect, absolutely totally perfect the way she described perfect.   If they weren't perfect, she had to destroy them.    Underneath that was a lot of self esteem issues, a lot of poor sense of self issues, a lot of manufacturing security by making things 'just the way she needed them'.   

Explaining that to her wasn't going to help much.   It wasn't a concept she could absorb.   It felt 'normal' to her.    It was how her world worked.     Outsiders weren't going to see that.    they only saw the facade that was created.   

are you still in contact now and how is that going?

'ducks

Hi judee, I'm so sorry you are going through this. It sounds very similar to my BPD ex. In recovery, it has really helped me to google topics like "codependency and BPD" , "BPD and projection", and "trauma bonding". There's also this thread from BPDFamily: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0)

Very often a pwBPD is unaware of the cycle of manipulation, obligation and guilt that they perpetuate. It can be extremely confusing for the well-intentioned partner when the pwBPD is saying things like "I don't want to hurt you, you're the love of my life, if only you could see more clearly how I feel, it's only you who understands me", etc. And then they split and lash out again when their unrealistic expectations aren't met. Refusal to take any responsibility is how they attempt to avoid their sense of toxic shame and therefore the fear of abandonment. It's always about them, and they'll project blame onto their partner rather than face reality.

I am fully aware of what this can do to a non-BPD's self-esteem. We may feel like we want to get back to the time when they were the most amazing person, and we're made to feel like it's up to us, that we can change or help them. When things don't go as we'd hoped, we may internalise the pwBPD's view and feel guilty.

But trust me, it is not your fault. I would suggest working on better boundaries, as hard as that is, I know. You might want to consider going no contact. It's possible that he has indeed painted you black and I'm afraid there's no good that can come out of that. He will only try to make you feel worse. You also don't want to be lured into another cycle.

What do YOU truly need to feel safer and healthier right now?

Baby ducks, thanks.. you have a point. I seem to give the impression I am more self-assured than I am about what is going on. I am in self preservation mode right now, trying to make sense of it all. I told him he is deflecting, intimidating me and using silent treatments and that it is not ok for me. and that I think we have a chance if we are both open. He told me he never wants to see me again and I said 'ok' .. (he said that quite a lot). We haven't been in contact since Wednesday. I feel it I am barely hanging on, mostly because of the emotional rollercoaster.. and I have to fall out of love, fast, just don't know if I can do that. I have to use this time to get to my senses.

Hi iamupside down...especially your last sentence helps, because I do ( and he confirms that mostly) think it is my problem. I am in therapy because of all that happened last year, and more but I want to figure out what is wrong with ME. This is the fourth time I have been in a relationship with someone with a personality disorder. after an extreme narcissist a few years back I was traumatised, which leads me to doubt my intuition sometimes.
This brings me down so much right now. I really felt this man was the love of my life... this whole year I was ruminating I was wrong maybe and we could make it.
So I have been asking myself if I am too, in some way.  maybe I am narcissistic or also borderline, or something I have overlooked.
Although if I look at the symptoms of both hardly any match.
I did grow up without a father the first 16 years and with a kind,  but inconsistent mother and became independent very early. I am used to balance people out, harmonise, care. I usually know what to to when someone has a break down or just is plain uncomfortable.
I don't know. its just a bit messy in my head right now.

I saw my Ex yesterday.    bumped into her at the library.   I had come from a bike ride, my exercise for the day.    I was hot.   tired.    probably a little dehydrated.   I stopped to return an overdue book, and BOOM there she was.     

I see her a lot.   bump into her frequently.    at a rate that sometimes feels excessively high.   probably like once a week or so.

she spoke to me first at the library.   I was taken by surprise and reacted a little oddly.    interactions with her are never simple.   they always feel fraught with something.   I don't know that I handled things very well or right.    I am not sure there is a 'right'.

and Yes, it affected me.    There were a lot of very intense emotions between her and I for a long time.    In a way they are still there.    those emotions just don't go away.   they aren't like a switch you can turn off.    when I see her, I tend to feel friendly towards her.    like I want to go and speak to her.   there is still, I dunno, a warmth there for lack of a better word.     I know that no relationship is possible between us.    way too much baggage.    way too much craziness.   

still I miss her.   and sometimes I would like to talk to her.   ask her about the book she was reading at the library.    ask her about the latest current event crisis.   I don't think that is wrong.    I think we live in this unusual contradiction.    we need to believe two contrary things at the same time.   we have these strong connections to our pwBPD and that these strong feelings aren't good for us or our partners.

we can go down the rabbit hole of, maybe if I did this, or maybe if she did that.  but I think the bottom line is, we fell in love with people that are horrible for us.   does that mean the love was a bad thing?     I don't think so.   I became such a better person from being with my Ex.    I have some phenomenal memories. I've got such a lot of damage.   I really wish it could have been different.    There was no way I could make it so.

honestly I am never going to be the person I was before that relationship.   somedays I am sad about that.   somedays I am not.    my feelings aren't the enemy.    I've got choices about what I do with my feelings.    somedays I will make the wrong choice.    like I did at the library.     that's okay.     I don't need to be harsh with myself.   and really I don't need to be harsh with her.    lt is what it is.     

as much as my Ex has a strong streak of perfectionism,  so do I.   I want to do this the right way.    I don't think there is a right way.    sometimes it feels more like muddling through.

'ducks

Hi baby ducks,

You put it beautifully. I admire you can hold yourself together as you do when seeing her. How long has it been since you were together?
A melancholic, kind approach which resonates with me a lot. Kind to yourself especially which is so on the spot. It is both there, the love and the BPD mess.. thank you for reminding me they can exist simultaneously. I can't just fall out of love. I tried to in the past six months. Tears as i am writing this, because today the heartbreak set in, like a huge wave that took me under. I wanted to go to the gym, but can't. So I just ate a huge tomato and bread with olive oil and accept that this is it for now.
I wrote him a few days ago that I don't hold any grudge towards him, just feel in pain, also because of my inability to handle my own blind spots. There was no reply.
I told him goodbye, without a response either. It is painful because finally I stood up for myself, set a boundary .. only to see that this was never possible with him. I am still proud I didn't leave myself, but it is like an x-ray of our relationship, nothing is left when I do that.

Perhaps you fell in love with an *idea*, not with him. Yes, pwBPD can, at least for a while, appear to be the *perfect* partner, heaven-sent to match our dreams. What they are instead, is a mirror of our highest selves, a formidable task which they cannot do for long.

So in essence, you fell in love with your *higher self* not the tangible, damaged person he truly is.

What was your goal with this message?  In what way did you think this was going to help?

It's true that our partners have very high validations needs.    It's also true that we have our own very high validations needs.    We say Don't JADE.    Don't justify, argue, defend or explain.   When I catch myself in JADE it is usually because I want some kind of validation.   I want to be understood for what I said, did or felt.   

The next logical question is,.. can the person I talking to provide validation in this situation?     I have to remind myself that looking for validation is a gift, something I choose to share with a trusted friend or partner.     Its not something I indiscriminately share with anyone.    I notice that Cat has joined us in this thread.    I would trust her to validate the appropriate things if I shared with her.

I can also validate myself.    By using kinder, softer, gentler self talk.     

One of the reasons I keep coming back here is that my EX has never really left my life, even though she ended the relationship years ago.   Right after the breakup I saw her, oh like 4 or 5 times a week.    There was a volunteer community garden right across the street from my condo in the city.   It provided vegetables to the local food pantry.   Guess who volunteered at that garden?   She did.    I was often in public spaces as I was on the board of directors of a local charity.    Every public event I attended she just happened to be there.    I had seasons tickets with the local sport team.    She became a fan.   It felt vaguely stalkish.    Still does actually.    The library branch where I bumped into her on Friday?    A mile from my home but fifteen from hers.   There is nothing really wrong with her picking a different branch of the library to visit.    It does feel odd to me.  just statically it feels odd that we bump into each other as often as we do.   and those are my feelings to deal with.

anyhow - I am rambling.     

Babyducks,

That is a lot... I would consider even moving if I bumped into an ex with such painful history so much.Do you think she is really stalking you or is it some crazy universal twist?
I had to think about why I sent that message... validation.. hmmm .. I think, maybe.. . I let him break up with me this time to see if he would still climb in the victim hole. He did, of course.. it is and endless black hole. But I did not want to give into that by giving him anything he could use against me.
I am sad, and I don't hold a grudge because I know his illness and I also know his despair, so that is also the truth.
But it doesn't feel right either to have shared that with him. I guess it is normal to do that with a healthy partner in a break up but keep forgetting to what extent he is not.

Can't say much, I wish my ex would come back too.

But, so many things have become clear to me in the last couple of years of suffering and reading and reading and video watching and therapy...I was in a deep dark hole.

A couple things in your post made me wince (not because you're bad or they are bad, it's because they sounded very, very familiar to me).

This whole paragraph...ouch...

He wouldn't reply on loving texts I sent him for sometimes a day. And then when he did he wouldn't acknowledge the message. I felt hurt by that .. but also that he was doing this out of insecurity or to destabilise me, I don't know. I do know I don't trust him enough to know it is random. Everything with him is reading in-between lines.
When I mentioned it hurt me that he didn't respond to anything or let a message this beautiful just go by he would go angry and give me the silent treatment again.
Eventually I tried to speak to him about it, saying I loved the weekend but didn't feel well with all the criticism he gives me.. and that I felt that afterwards. I actually felt better about myself after he was gone.. was a weird thing to realise after being with the one I am so in love with.
I tried to ask why he gave me all this negativity and said I missed his kind and loving words. He said he felt that was blocked and I caused that ( by leaving him)

Not responding to texts for long periods of time, being evasive or not addressing what was sent. Been there. Painful. I can feel the pain now. We all know that it takes 4 seconds to answer a text.

Getting angry when you bring it up, then giving the silent treatment. Been there too. More pain.

It's your fault that he doesn't say loving and kind things. Happy to be intimate with you, walk around and accept the adoration of the crowds...but cannot be kind.

And the confusion that's already reigning in your head. Ta

Like, you are noticing the criticism immediately, and noticing that it makes you feel bad. Likely this went on for a while in the first round until you noticed it, then you really thought about it a lot during your time apart. So now, it's incredibly obvious. My ex also criticized me and controlled the way I did things and I'm now baffled why I put up with it.

Then, when you voice that these things hurt you, he tells you it's YOUR fault, there's something wrong with YOU. This too, is very familiar to me. "he doesn't do things to intentionally hurt you" but you voice your dislike for the criticisms and he tells YOU to get mental health help! Been there.

I think you are much more attuned to these things now.

Hi jaded,

Yes , I am, but your mirror just now made it even clearer to me.
'It takes 4 seconds to answer a message'. Exactly.
I am sorry this happened to you as well...I think we can take enormous lessons from it though.
The thing is, it doesn't hurt me that much anymore because I am more sure as to WHY he does this.
There is an endless need for reassurance (a.i me saying I love him ) for him to feel secure.
When I expressed feeling hurt by him not responding you know what he said? ... ; ' You know what you have to do if you want me to respond? Send it again. ' I was BAFFLED.
The first time he came to my house after six months he said: 'I don't want to take too much of your time' .. I was like ' seriously?' after that I start a million reassurances he is welcome and I love to be with him.
However when I say to him at the end of the weekend : shall I come over to your house somewhere next week? ' ( I was trying to be mutual as in staying at each others places, he expressed I never wanted to be at his house once before)  He immediately declines and says he will be too busy.
Don't get me wrong, I know him. He really wants me to come or at least be together. He just feels a need to reject/control in way.. and  he still manages to come off as the rejected afterwards.
tbh the more I know about BPD the less it hurts but also the less I am able to truly connect with him.
Resonates with anyone?

I actually said that "it takes 4 seconds..." to my ex once when she was ignoring my messages for days, giving me lies about how she couldn't respond (busy, etc.) when, in fact, she was posting instagram stories during the very time she said she was busy. Very evasive, lying about what she's doing...then tell me I need mental health help when I point out she ignored messages for days. She was avoiding me, I now know that and I know why. Nothing I did, she was preparing to ditch me over the holidays to visit her family (who asked me when I was coming up and I had to tell them I don't know, she hasn't said anything. I didn't tell them she was ghosting me and being evasive). And she did...no text responses for a week, no phone calls, then simply left town without saying a word. Painful. And then attacked me when I pointed that out.

"You know what you have to do if you want me to respond, send it again." Are you kidding me? AGAIN...what you have to do. And send the same text twice? In order for him to take it seriously or act like a human being?

A normal expectation of a loving relationship, responding to a loving text, is somehow twisted to you being needy, expecting too much, screwing up by not sending it twice. And of course, the goal posts will shift if you do send it twice. "I was BUSY", "I can't respond to every text you send", "I didn't see it", "You know that I saw it, can't that be enough?". Always your fault, always.

Not saying yes to you coming over and secretly wanting you to and then being disappointed when you don't is a form of control, he feels in control of you when he does that. But it's also mind reading expectation- "if you loved me you would know what I want", "I shouldn't have to ask". Both of which I got in spades. Even when I did explicitly ask what she needed, wanting to do whatever she needed for her, she said "nothing" then ghosted me in the following days and blocked me because she was "mad at me for not taking care of her". I pointed out that I asked her repeatedly what she needed, what can I do?, then made suggestions since she kept saying nothing, she then mocked the suggestions I had made and said "my friends know what to do without asking".

Mind reading expectations come from fear of vulnerability. Asking for what you need is scary to them, so they don't and expect you to just know. Then get mad at you for not doing it because they feel let down. Really, it's just that they are feeling shame in not asking, then projecting out onto you when you don't 'come through'.

It sounds like your guy and my ex are cut from the exact same mold.

So many sharp observations...!
Yes they do sound very similar.
My ex sent me the day before yesterday that he loves me immensely and wants to go to counselling together.
(I wrote this today in another post_) ... then he said he wanted to take my whatsapps into counselling to show how emotional they are and I am really the problem.
Which is ultimately cunning  move because I have been wondering for weeks why his whatsapps are very void of emotion and in contast to his actions, a.i  walking out, yelling, hissing, silent treatments, hanging up ... blocking, unblocking..
I know he was in therapy as well with his last ex and my feeling says this is not the first time he has tried to use whatsapps as ' proof'.
I just told him I think that is a ridiculous idea because whatsapp is in no way a representation of a relationship and that I need time to think about everything.

Good for you! That's a wise move and a great example of a boundary.

He's setting you up, already. He has made the decision that you're the problem, and agreed to counseling as a way to prove to you that you're the problem. Counseling, for him, is not a way for both to look at themselves and be vulnerable...to be open to making things better in the relationship, better for you. It's a TOOL to force you into submission while simultaneously maintaining his front and innocence.

This is the worst kind of manipulation. It's exactly the same as telling you that you need mental health help when you point out their abusive, inconsistent, crazy-making behavior. Shift the issue back to YOU. You're the problem here.

So Judee what are your goals? What would you like to happen? Do you have an endgame picture in mind here?

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Hi SC,

I only have a personal goal, that is to NOT leave myself anymore and always tell my truth.
I told him in the beginning of this week I needed some time to think...
Yesterday morning I told him everything I think. In sense of , that I have been reading about BPD and in retrospect a lot of what I have been feeling from him ( rejection sensitivity, punishment/revenge,) has made sense. ( there is a lot more... gaslighting , yelling. , walking out , throwing things, silent treatment, suicidal thoughts but I thought let's stick to what is the most current issue)
I told him that that makes me massively distrust his motives. So there are my feelings, there is the theory... they match perfectly and then on the other hand there is him, telling me that he doesn't do that.

I never told him this before. I let him make me the problem before.
I am not asking him to 'prove' whether he does that or not... actually it doesn't matter so much for me. I wanted to say what I see happening, It is a big step for me.
Chances are, he will tell me he never wants to see me again. Then that will be it. As I said before, I am not afraid of losing him any more. If he does, than maybe we can get somewhere.
For me, two worlds connected by sending him this. Probably the heart and mind again.
I feel I told my truth and therefore I can't be anything else than in acceptance regardless of the outcome.

Before I sent it I was thinking about my expectations and of course the thought of him confessing that he DOES do these things came by.
But I chuckled a bit thinking: to ask a diagnosed BPD this in the form of a question is like waking up in an empty house, catching a burglar outside your house with a truck full of stuff and ask him : did you take my stuff?

my Ex and I used to have endless, what I called, ~status of the relationship~ talks.

Oh they were endless.    "You have to be more considerate of my feelings."   "This just isn't working."    "Can't you see how you did XYZ to me."

They were the most unproductive conversations I have ever had in my life.   They just went round and round and never accomplished anything.


You've been around this website long enough to be familiar with the Karpman Drama Triangle.    But for those who might be following along and are newer, the triangle maps a type of destructive interaction that can occur among people in conflict.

https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle)

At the bottom of this article it talks about how to get off the drama triangle.    how to move to the center.

I'm curious.    would you say that you are participating in a triangle here?   and which one?   the drama triangle or the caring triangle.


all of us here certainly understand how hard it is to communicate effectively with someone who is on the BPD spectrum.    to do it effectively requires top notch grade A communication skills.     

Now maybe I am reading this the wrong way.   and please correct me if I am.   but it sounds as if you sort of unloaded on him hoping that might force him away.   and save you from making tough decisions?

 
In the article linked above, it talks about "instead of the actions of the persecutor,  who blames and punishes - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing " and "asserting ". Ask for what you want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action."

could you say 'No, I am not interested in therapy to discuss my WhatApp, but I would go with these ground rules established.'?

When I first came here, people told me to avoid adding drama to an already drama filled situation.   excellent advice for a BPD relationship.   excellent advice for life.    they were saying, basically to get off the drama triangle.    find a way to more positive outcomes.     seems to me that a communication that risks burning down the entire communication stream isn't really such constructive feedback.

my two cents.
'ducks

I am telling him how his behaviour affects me, basically what I am going through when he rejects, punishes and deflects, and that I know why.
I am not looking to persecute him, I guess I am in a way when I express that?
Apart from that, I get what you are saying..  I wish I did, but  just have no idea what ground rules i could set to help in this situation.

Confronting to read it gives the impression that I am trying to force him away... I am not, I am just anticipating he will because he has given me the silent treatment for a thousand less significant things...
I did tell him I think he is an amazing person and I love x and y and z about him, and I love him a lot.
I honestly feel nothing else of a goal but telling him the truth ( as in my truth) not to create drama, not with a goal of getting back together, nor to hurt him or force him away. I think this is more a battle between me and myself, trying to stick up for myself and my truth. I used to give an arm to keep the peace.

 
 

I get what your'e saying here and what you did. You expressed your feelings about the treatment you're getting. I don't see anything wrong with that. You expressed why you think it's happening, in the context of a known BPD diagnosis, and you packaged it in love. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I also don't think this will go well. What is good relating, good communication, in a normal relationship doesn't work in these, according to all my reading (and therapy!).

"anger in response to real or perceived criticism"
"projection"

These two things, in my experience, make the kind of relating that you did not work. I once said, in loving and kind tone of voice to my ex (after she had blown up at me when I texted to ask why she wasn't responding/communicating, just completely out of the blue, with no explanation- she gaslighted me about saying she "gave me an itinerary for the weekend", no she didn't, complete lie, she screamed at me that I "need mental health help", that I was "controlling". I apologized the next day for triggering her, she angrily told me "she wasn't triggered"...the woman who picked up the phone when she was ghosting to me to yell at me (not even a "hello") that I need mental health help and I'm controlling and who gaslighted  me that she "gave me an itinerary for the weekend". She did not, she texted early Saturday morning that she was going to the farmer's market early (around 8:30) rather than meeting me there at 11:15 like we normally did after I closed my business at 11, because her "son had a lot of homework". That was it. I said, of course, have fun I'll talk to you later. That was the itinerary.

Our last conversation I calmly explained to her that "my experience is you stopped communicating and responding, you were angry and mad at the show we went to with your family, you snapped at me and walked away from me in front of your family and you humiliated me in front of them, then without communicating for two more days you simply left town for Christmas without me, or without saying a word to me. That's my experience."

I felt good saying that the way I did, in calm, non-accusatory way. That was my experience. Do you think she acknowledged any of it?

No. Every bit of it was denied and turned back on me. I was wrong about all of it, my feelings were wrong about all of it, she wasn't mad at the show-denied it 4 times, I insisted that was my experience that she was angry...she finally admitted it "you want to know why I was mad at the show? Because you kissed me on the lips when you said you had the cold and crud!". I never said I had the cold and crud (I have never even used that language, and I wasn't sick). About not communicating for days "I was busy" (as she was posting stories of the show on Instagram and communicating with everyone else). About leaving for Christmas without saying a word for days "You knew where I was" (I didn't, we hadn't spoken on the phone in a week, she had ignored calls and texts from me). Plus, that is not even the issue, where she is. The issue is she stopped communicating and ditched me over Christmas, leaving town and leaving me alone over the holidays even after she had told me weeks before she was "thinking about inviting me up for Christmas" to her family's house (where I'd been the year before, her Mom asked me when I was coming up) but now...silence and evasion. I mean, that in itself was weird...we've been together for 2 years, I've spent the last major holidays with your and your family, and now you're just thinking of it? And then, you never mention it again and just skip out of town with zero communication for a week?

Which is all to say, that was our last conversation ever. I expressed my experience of her behavior and she denied it all, turned it all back on me being a bad/damaged/wrong human being, made up lies about what had happened or not happened, etc.

I just had a honest conversation with one of my dearest male friends about this.. I asked him about his relationship.
When listening to him about how he and his girlfriend handle the so called 'little things' ( which they aren't! they can undermine your entire sense of realty and self)  a painfully yet comforting sharp contrast to hear what it is like to get healthy responses and to be treated with empathy.
He gave the example that a few weeks ago his Gf needed some space because she had a couple of hard therapy sessions.. after 5 days my friend said it triggered his fear of abandonment...he tried to handle it but was suffering at a point. after which he decided to tell her that and if she could tell him what was going on for her.
She responded kind and understanding, they talked about it and he said he trusts her for that. To do that.
she explained what was going on for her in those days.


May it be a reminder for you too,  jaded, as it was for me.

Last night I called him .. it was like nothing ever happened we jumped straight back on the love beam. he said ten times he was so happy I called , so happy.. ( I was a bit overwhelmed and surprised by this sudden happy version of him)
He said we ARE in a relationship and he has been thinking about no one but me in the past year.
For me it felt like a speedboatride on steroids where I slowly got seasick.. I must admit I was happy hanging up. really happy... but almost dizzy because of this sudden shift of emotions.
I feel I went along with his high, it was so very welcome to communicate with love and kindness for a change, and feel appreciated.
Later last night he texted me : 'Thank you for calling, it was lovely'. I replied early this morning : 'a hi and a hug to S( friend he is with) and chest kisses to you .'

Which he read, but no reply.
Then I think again, here we go. ... it takes only one second even to send a smile or a kiss... even if you are in a crazy schedule ( which he isn't now)

I presented this case to my friend just now, who points out to me he would feel the same if his GF would do that. apart from that my friend tried to figure out as to why he does that , he asked me if I thought ExwBPD is intimidated by my independance.
never specifically see myself like that but I know exwBPD mentioned that a few times ( 'I had more exes who were fiercely independent' he said once).
I feel confused and lost right now.

Anyone any guidance on how to act towards him from here? should I confess how it makes me feel, or just persist on silence towards myself, no matter what?

Silence towards him,  I meant in the last sentence.

I’m wondering what your overarching outcome is in communicating with him at all?

He seems to feel, or so he says, that you’re in a “relationship.” How do you feel about that?

Knowing what you went through some months ago, what are you getting by reopening that door?

How do you envision your interactions with him in the future?

Honestly, are you hoping to reconcile?

Hi cat,

Honestly, after our talk last night, yes I did..
But then today I got the cold shoulder again, I just am confused and feel my resilience to step away is weakening again, as well as my trust to stay.
I expressed to him that it is hurtful to me to continuously have to deal with this unreciprocity. I said that I do see clearly it is not my problem, this is part of normal intimacy and reciprocity.
And that this feels unhealthy to me. .
In the meantime he just said sorry for that and that he should have taken a second to appreciate that. To me that sounds .. robotic. like I am a burden and he apologises for not taking a 'second'. I don't know.

 I feel like I am slowly becoming like he was in the beginning of our relationship ( but then without a reason, I was continuously reassuring him and immediately responding because otherwise he would get angry or call 7 times. ) I don't do these things, but it just feels like pokeberrybush.
Or am I overreacting now?

It feels like he is feeding me crumbs , or not even... and wants me to keep sending him things ( I like it! ), calling him, without him calling me or answering anything. Honestly what is this?
I feel like there is a leech attached to me.

Believe it the first time when people show you who they are.
I’m not sure of the original author of this quote, but it seems applicable here.

This relationship severely damaged your health in the first go round. You made great effort and progress to reclaim yourself.

You see your ex’s part as unhealthy, as evidenced by speaking with your friend about his relationship with his girlfriend.

What are you getting through reengaging with someone who has in the past, and continues now to treat you so poorly?

I have to agree with Cat.  It sounds very much like he hasn't truly changed.  On the other hand, the progress you have made with yourself before communication started again, you are communicating what behaviors he is doing that you are not ok with.  You're right about text responses (it's a pet peeve of mine).  Yes, people lead busy lives and aren't always near their phone but it doesn't take much time to send a short text.  One thing that stuck out to me, you described once of his responses as 'robotic'.  Does he come off that way often?

Not on the phone or live,
Only in text... he also sends 'inappropriate' responses, like ' great!" when we are in an argument and try to find a time to talk on the phone...or starts a text with Dear J-. like a formal letter.
I feel that is the only place he can try to control his emotional outbursts (which immediately resume when on the phone) is in text. But it just comes across as weird.

Last night I repeated something to him from the 'good' and happy version I got on the phone the day before yesterday.
He didn't remember anything of it. I felt my small hopes crumble at the spot.
I knew he had a drink or two, but I have never heard him so happy and loving on the phone. for me it felt off that he doesn't recall whole sentences at all,  so I asked him last night if there was something else in play ( drugs).
And that I can imagine since his friend S was around (and I know he uses drugs recreationally).
My exwBPD replied: can we please talk about this tomorrow?
and closes with a sweet dreams, a fire and a heart. ( again, a bit weird considering the situ?)
The happy version on the phone also said in the middle his tongue felt numb.
I feel there is a yes coming. I don't want to be with anyone who uses drugs, not even occasionally. so curious to see how this will unfold.

Thanks, you both.. I know, I have to be really careful and tbh I feel like an absolute towel to get myself again in this mess. But really really grateful for your words... I feel like I am slowly slipping but I keep rereading what you all say and it pulls me back to me. I guess a small from of self doubt has crept in, because I am talking to him so much.
I only have small hopes now, and that is that I can keep from talking to him today.. and disengage little by little.
I know all emotions sink a little after a few days.

Im experiencing similar behavior from my pwBpD. After 'us' ended and we became friends he regularly messages me. Things he likes. Things he thinks Id like. Stuff he wants my view on. Friendly. Some times sharing very personal info on his GF. Tells me how she is treating him, describes unfair selfish behavior, which makes him in look like a victim. This was the routine for many months since joining bpdfamily. Recently there have been gaps in messages. Days of silence. He knows this is a trigger for me. I try to ignore it. Codepend. me used to attempt to initiate n restart chatter. Ive worked hard on my codep. issue. Now I donot initiate if my last message was ignored. It is frustrating. This is the hardest I have worked at ANY relationship. It has (re)brought up and helped me address my own issues. I do want friendship. I would say yes to more BUT doubt it will ever be offered again. It hurts knowing he is dealing with his own demons of abandonment and emptiness. Often Id want to hug him BUT donot want to cross boundaries. Yeah it is all confusing and still straight forward when you remind your self that they have BpD. The usual social rules donotapply!

Since this is the Detaching and Learning Board, I feel a bit freer to share that holding onto hope for a healthy romantic relationship with someone, who demonstrably has shown they have little consideration for your feelings and wants connection only on their terms, is chasing a phantasm.

The cold hard truth is that at the beginning, they were able to lure you in by being the embodiment of what you hoped a romantic partner would be.

However, it was either too much work to continue the fantasy or they got bored once they saw that you were hooked.

Why is it so hard to let go of the dream that this *wonderful person* you met at the beginning could return once again?

Think of the concept of intermittent reinforcement– “when rewards are given out inconsistently and infrequently – it’s an extremely powerful tool of manipulation. It is used constantly in abusive relationships, and it has the ability to make someone feel bonded to the person who is emotionally abusing them.”

I’ve been there too. I know how powerful the hold is when the *reward* of warmth, caring, kind words, attention, love is sparingly doled out—then withheld.

To step out of this, you have to look at the big picture. Is this how you deserve to be treated? Do you truly believe this person will ever behave differently toward you? What keeps you from being available for a relationship with an emotionally healthy partner?

In response to you Cat (and I truly admire and appreciate your brutal honesty on the subject), I would say what makes it so hard to let go of the fantasy is that they do not seem to understand that their behavior is abusive.  I can only speak for myself and my former friend/lover but she did not seem to understand her behavior was not always appropriate.  But when she ended things, she would start talking like a completely different person.  I defend her, in spite of how selfish and unfair she is with me, because I know she is not a bad person or malicious, just often reckless.  And a lot of what she said at the end seemed to be out of a desire not to hurt me further.  It's one reason it's hard to let go of the fantasy.  Of course, a harsher truth is that even if they commit to working on improving themselves and their behavior in relationships, they probably will not talk to you again.

Please feel free Cat, I stayed in the detachment board not without a reason...
Your words make a lot of sense, I get a bit nauseous reading about the intermittent reinforcement.

Adrock, there is no way I feel privileged to have been saying in contact with him for so long (or again) ...
I love him immensely but as anyone knows and has warned me about, I am going down, fast.

Our last (final) conversation ( this is really personal, but I feel I need to share it) :

Day before yesterday:
Me: 'Were you using anything else than alcohol when we spoke? I am asking because It is confusing to me. I loved that version of you .. and to hear you don't remember what you said feels disorienting. I am asking because I know S (friend he was with) does and I can imagine when it is around.' ( he does use coke occasionally)
Him: 'Can we please talk about this tomorrow ?'
Me: 'OK'
 
Yesterday:
Me: 'I got a lot of faith from a conversation I had with you when you were under influence.. and apparently don't remember much from. The day after, I feel your 'normal' self is back again ( ignoring sweet messages for a day) and it leaves me confused. If everything is bliss when i speak to you when you are drunk ( and/or something else)...and I am completely sober, what does that tell you?'
Him: 'Wow, I do remember a great deal. And it was so lovely. And fyi I wasn't using other drugs. And its these kind of assumptions I don't like. ASSUME=ASS OF U & ME.'
Me: 'You didn't make it clear, I asked.'
Him: 'I have to go now.' ( he doesn't.. but it is like hanging up or walking out to me)
Me: 'Of course. (and here I lose my patience) To me this is one of the most inconsistent, emotionally destructive relationships I have ever been in. You are so eager to point the finger at me but are you aware, or just ask yourself if maybe you have a part in this? It is either you bottle it all up and emotionally disconnect or throw it all out and everything explodes. I am trying to trust this but help me out here: how? '
Him: 'Why then, do you continue if I am the most destructive ever?
Me: ( thinking: good question) do you want an honest answer?
Him: ?
Me: 'I never learned how to set boundaries. Emotional neglect as a child. My father and brothers left when I was three . My mother was kind but never there. I was expected to be independent from the age of 8. apparently I feel safe in unsafety. '
Him: 'I am sorry, but I know I am not as unsafe as you project me to be.'
Me: ' OK... but I fell for someone that is diagnosed with BPD. I want to believe you. Believe me I do.'
Him: ' My diagnosis don't define me, Just like yours ( Crohn's ) doesn't either.
Me: 'True.' ' I can't talk about this in WhatsApp, if you can call, then call.
Him:' I don't trust that, I told you when I can call' ( I feel he actually means control instead of trust? )
Me: 'oh tonight? I don't trust you will, but I will give it to you anyway ' ( about 80 percent of the time 'something came up' and he doesn't ).
Him: 'OK, you know what... I am done. I don't want to call anymore because I am sure it will get us nowhere.' ( something came up already)
Me: 'How can you expect me to trust you if you keep on reverting to this?'
Him: ' You give me no choice.'
Me:' I said my trust was damaged in that you call when you say you do, but I am giving it to you anyway.'
Him: ' everything I do damages your trust in me.'
Me: ' Do you want to call tonight or do you want to break up again?' I don't know anymore.
Him: ' fck you.'
Me: ?
Him: 'You are sick.'
Him: ' I want you out of my life'
Him: 'stop typing'
Me: I think this is what is called emotional dysregulation. ( I am trying to observe instead of letting it get to me)
Me: I am sorry.
Him: Are you a trained therapist? or a narcissist?
Me: neither.
Him : 'Exactly.'
Me: ' This can never be repaired. Go. Enough is enough.'
Him: 'Gone.'

Then he blocked me.

Judee, I apologize if I gave you the impression that it was a privilege to be able to reconnect with him.  I did not mean to do that especially with what you are going through.  I read the conversation you had with him a few times.  I'm at a loss as to his treatment of you.  His awareness of his condition has not had any real bearing on how he treats you and he still engages in patterns that are unhealthy.  I hope you continue to vent/share on the board to help you through this.  He's being emotionally abusive and it sounds to me like he knows exactly what he is doing.  I think one thing to hold onto is, you were able to verbally express to him what behaviors you were not ok with, including his lack of explanations to things.  That probably doesn't feel like much but it shows you know your self worth and what you won't tolerate.

Oh, no I was actually trying to comfort you ..like, it is no blueberry pancake if a BPD returns.
Thank you lot for your take on it. At this moment I feel like I am one big gaping wound, and it is hard to see things clear. To type down what litterally happens and see your response then however, is helpful.

I just went for a two hour walk and I notice my system is in quite severe stress mode. Very fearful, it seems.  A dog walking towards me, a van door closing, everything makes my adrenaline go up and my whole body tingles.

yes, it does help to have been keeping expressing to him what I observe happening. I feel like therefore it isn't ' sticking' to me so much, because I made him know that I am 'on' to him.
I don't know if I would recommend it though.. at least I felt I had to be careful because I also know he can have suicidal thoughts. But it did feel at least like some kind of self-defence.

Although going through all this, I feel deep down the universe has saved me from having to be with him any longer.
I want to hold on to that thought, without denying my pain. About a lost dream, a massive slip, the loss of his amazing sides and the damage done. 

I think anyone who gets to break from a BPD is saved by the universe. Whether you are broken up with or are strong enough to go... It is the best chance you can get, take it.

That is a really painful dialogue to read. Painful because of all the misdirection and diversion on his part, the threats and rapid escalation, the non-sensical nature of it. This is classic word salad-ing and misdirection of an emotionally abusive person. Refusal to acknowledge what HE said "Can we talk about this tomorrow" (classic move- refusal to engage with what you said at the time) then refusal to talk about it tomorrow, then you trying to explain that he said let's talk about it tomorrow...it just goes on and on.

Been there. You can't get anywhere because they are unable to acknowledge their role in things, they can't. So they have to revert to the techniques you see in this. When those techniques don't work for them- i.e. you keep stating the truth of what happened/what was said, you state how his behavior makes you feel, etc.-they escalate to attacks, then to ultimatums, then to unilaterally cutting off the conversation, then to ending the relationship with put-downs and name calling.

It's a well-defined pattern I'm familiar with.

Yea, it is really scary to experience, because I am still emotionally involved...you feel like nothing makes sense anymore, I am letting myself be dragged into corners that are irrelevant only for him to use it as an even absurder bat to smack with.

This dialog is reminiscent of what I experienced with my abusive ex husband, prior to knowing anything about BPD.

Good for you for holding firm with what you were trying to communicate.  |iiii

The pattern I typically experienced with my ex was when I tried to bring up an issue, he’d so confuse and redirect the conversation, that I would end up apologizing and promising to be *better*. Then hours later, alone, I’d wonder WTF happened? He never was available to address my concerns. There was no apology for bad behavior on his part. Conversations were always deflections of his role or responsibilities.

It is a gaping wound right now and because of your emotional involvement, you are torn between your logic and emotions (as you yourself are describing right now).  Logically, you know how much better off you are without an emotionally abusive person who refuses to change and will continue to treat you this way.  Emotionally, you are distraught.

The important thing we have to remember is these wounds do not have to be fatal.  My own wound (and she has given me many over the years) has currently clotted.  I try to leave it alone but backpedal so it will continue to bleed if I do not let it heal.  And after it has clotted, it will scab over.  Then one day it will leave a scar that you live with.

Keep doing what you have to judee.  Feel the pain now and find any outlet you can to lessen it (healthy ones of course would be better).  We are here for you.

Oy yea, the mindfck.

One time 6 months ago, on the moment we ' broke up'  wrote a formal letter to my two partners in business ( I am a designer, I own a company with two guys) , giving them a business proposal.
This, to me,  was an act of aggression. ( luckily my business partners thought it was weird an inappropriate the least )
When I told my ex I felt betrayed by this , his reply was : ' I was trying to be professional...'
I was raising ten eyebrows if I had them.
He then paused for a long time, and said: '... you know what? I actually feel betrayed by YOU, because we weren't supposed to talk about it now.. you don't remember that?
In all honesty, with a really small apologetic voice  I said ' No, I must have misunderstood then... '
Then he walked out furious, because I betrayed HIM.
And we never talked about it anymore.

Writing this down, seeing it,  is like ... oofff, was this really me?

HE wrote a letter to my business partners... it had to be in the first sentence.

AdRock,

Thank you for saying that. Good for you you feel yours has clotted.. What would complete healing look/feel like for you?
I feel two things massively speed up healing from a toxic relationship , and we all need both:
One is truly seeing what happened, and recognising it,  without a doubt. This website is of an enormous value to help with that.
Second is to value ourselves enough not to even want to come close to engaging with 'what truly happened'. Ever. Again.

What would complete healing look like for me?  How much time do you have judee (afraid of commandeering your discussion board).
Short answer, when I can forgive her behavior and when I can forgive my own.  I read a lot of old posts on here, seeing the journey of others.  I wish I had known about it years ago for a toxic friendship I was in that first introduced me to what is bpd is and how to navigate codependency with one.  That friend is long gone but even now I think about her and wonder if I ever truly forgave her or myself for what happened.  Maybe I just buried it all.  Like my ex lover, my ex friend doesn't behave out of cruelty and they both are aware they have mental health issues.  But their behavior towards me was always selfish and when I failed to be the perfect 'whatever they wanted me to be', they would leave.
Whether we ever truly heal or not (unfortunately, some don't, in various life circumstances), we move forward and on.  But forgiveness when we find ourselves able to is probably the answer.  To recognize the situation was not fixable but that I played a role in the relationship and cannot pawn the train wreck on her.  I tried (I know you understand, I tried) to put up boundaries and make it work but it couldn't.  And then I blamed myself.  So I know forgiveness it will take a long time.  And if she comes back, I don't see any other way to handle it maturely unless I forgive both of us.

The past few days are absolutely horrific.
I go through all the pain, rejection, looking at whatsapp, seeing myself still blocked, trying to process.
I am having nightmares and wake up multiple times a night, not remembering at first what happened when it dawns on me something bad happened. Then I wake up to reality and it is too hard to bear, really.

I sent him a SMStext message yesterday saying that I was devastated by his words and sudden 'disappearing act' .I wrote him it triggers a lot of pain from when I was a child. ( my mother was absolutely lovable, nothing like my BPD ex, yet she was allover the place,  came and went whenever she felt like. I never knew where she was and that left trauma ) and I told him nobody ever used these words to me.
He was still in dysregulation mode I think, because he  took my vulnerability as an opportunity to empower himself even more ( or maybe it is shame deflection, he cannot handle his own so I have to be at fault)  telling me I need to get help and that he is not willing to communicate with me unless I do that. If I want he is willing to come with me.
This feels so eery to me. I just can't imagine to respond that to someone you love and I sink down even more, maybe from sheer desillusion that I wasn't expecting that.. It feels narcissistic to me, I don't think he is particularly but I noticed before that when he dysregulates there is a massive hunger to take the power and control. No matter how small I am.

I replied to him: ' No, it is alright, you just showed me who you truly are. Not trusting you was a sign of health. Your words don't harm me anymore, they are all yours.'

But the truth is, they do. I just can't or refuse to believe this is the same guy that I spoke to last Monday. The guy that told me he was happy as 4 year old that I called, it was me all the time. all this year he was thinking about me everyday, and we DO have a relationship.. we said that we loved eachother and I asked him to come with me abroad in a few weeks to see my friends baby. He Said he LOVED to and laughed as he said how good of a long distance driver he is. I could kiss his face through the phone, so happy I felt.


AdRock,
Forgiveness, of course, how could I forget.

There are therapists that believe that repeating trauma's actually keeps them alive, because you keep the pain 'updated'.
I don't know, I am not a therapist. But personally I need to talk about it. 
I do however feel that this board , even though extremely beneficial and for al lot of us ( incl me) a lifeline , can also function as e-smoking when trying to quit smoking.
 It is not causing more damage , but you keep making the same movements and same inhalations...it can kind of keep you in the attachment as well.

If it can be of help, I  know from my past there were two people I though I could NEVER forgive. One was my narcissistic ex and the other one was another (fairly normal) ex. It both happened, miraculously. First one took about three years ( and never saw him again) , the second .. we still are close and can laugh a lot together.
I do think it will happen for you.
Forgiveness is a weird thing, you can't force it, you can't speed it up... then at a certain moment it is like the storm has passed. You can see the whole picture including how the other person hurt or betrayed you and STILL accept the whole picture, or maybe be even grateful for it.
I can say I am grateful for my experience with my narcissistic ex. I had the time of my life with him, traveling, talking.. he had a sense of humour and intelligence that was delicious. Yet, he traumatised me, probably for life. But he also gave me the insights in my codependancy. So, yea.. that is how it is. It took me there years though, of going deep down in my feelings of anger and despise towards him. ( and I truly recommend going to those places in your pain , without holding back or censuring .. Rob Bell has a brilliant podcast about that, if you like I can send it )

Judee, my heart is absolutely breaking for what you're going through because I have and am still actually there, despite trying to take some positive steps for myself (but my impatience gets in the way).  I have read and watched that to go through TRUE no contact, is not just a simple matter of not contacting them or not responding if they reach out to you.  A video I watched said it is to ensure they can NEVER contact you again no matter what for the rest of your life.   Block their number, block their social media, anything you have to do.  For me, this seems extreme because she has made zero attempts to engage with me but, it would be step one for me in putting it to bed.  Naturally, I am unable to do that, although after what I saw she posted last night, I am strongly tempted to (I don't want to ramble on your thread about my situation but will explain if you want).
For you, because of what you're currently feeling, this might be the approach you need to take.  I know he has blocked you and (I don't have what's app) I don't think you can block someone back  but you should consider cutting the cord in any other way so you can begin to heal.  That is a suggestion because obviously I myself am not in the place to do so yet.  For me personally, beyond my back and forth emotions of being numb to missing her to then being triggered by any revelation that she would rather engage with my replacement (without caring anymore that I  or her husband that she's separated from can view it), I am making myself physically ill over this due to the anxiety over it.
I would like to see us both make attempts to further distance ourselves from these two individuals so we can heal better.  Yours is very fresh but I keep backsliding and find a way to reopen my wound.  If it would help beyond engaging with the other threads on this board, you are welcome to private message me.  Your words have meant much to me in particular and I hope mine ease your pain a bit.

These types of relationships become like an addiction. We know they are hurting us, but we still keep engaging in some way, with the hope that we will obtain that good feeling that originally got us hooked.

I had hoped to remain *friends* with my abusive ex husband due to attachment and fond memories of good times. He made it easier to cut the cord by doing things that were so unkind and downright evil.

Over time, I had to think of him as a truly awful person and not the sweet, kind person that he was at times. I certainly had a lot of evidence to back up thinking of him as *bad* but at the same time, that negated my experience of why I ever got involved with him in the first place. However, focusing on all the awful things he did to me was a needed strategy to break the addiction.

Now, years later, the only things I know about him are that he physically attacked his next wife, was arrested, fled, had an arrest warrant in California, moved to Hawaii, then moved to Florida, never visiting his elderly mother prior to her death. (His nephew filled me on on some of these details.) For a while, I got frequent calls from creditors in Florida where he had skipped out on payments and apparently had moved several times.

Out of the blue, I got a call from a young woman who was looking for him. She was his daughter that he had never met, conceived when he was married to me.  :(

My current view of him is of a pathetic, damaged human being, who behaved abusively to me and others in a sad attempt to give himself some status and control.

In many cases, I really don’t think there’s a possibility of ever being *friends* with some of these people. They are too damaged and too emotionally underdeveloped to be able to be equals. Perhaps it’s better to rip the bandage off fast and continue to focus on healing, rather than to try and resurrect some glimpse of the dream of who you think that person could be at their best.

This resonates a lot...and I agree. When I sent him my last text message saying how painful it is what he said and then disappeared and I worried about him at the same time... I was actually envisioning I was saying that to a ' normal' person... a.i my ex of 11 years. Then I saw more clearly how disordered his response was, how void of empathy. It is also deeply confronting. I almost shared my life with this guy.

Cat, I am so sorry for what you have been through. In some way maybe reassuring to know he just continued to make a  mess in his life, in sense of, you weren't wrong in your view of him.
The moment you found out of the child he made while you were married... you must have felt devastated.
I am happy for you you got out, at least and continue your journey of leaving it all behind you. I know for a lot of people here you have been of tremendous help, so if it can be good for something, you put what you went through to the best use.

They can maintain a reasonable facsimile of *normality* for long enough to make us believe it, despite our perceptions.

That lack of empathy, however, can be stunning.

“People without the ability to empathize are unable to love another person and put their needs above their own.”  Dr. Steven Hassan is a cult survivor and is the preeminent expert for helping get others out of cults. So many of these abusive relationships share similar dynamics to cults.

He uses an acronym: BITE to explain the different types of control cult leaders (and abusive partners) can use: Behavioral, Information, Thought, Emotion. Interesting parallels between cults and relationships with partners who have a personality disorder.


Certainly it was a validation. I chalk it up to unbridled optimism that I thought he could ever change.  lol


Fortunately I was long out of the relationship by this point, and I had heard some rumors in the past. When she called and asked for him, I heard the Southern accent and I knew exactly who she was. She was surprised when I asked about her mother. It turned out that she and my ex had a lot of interests in common. She was about to graduate from college and marry her pre-med boyfriend, with an eye on a career in pharmacology research, developing new drugs. (My ex was very interested in drugs too.  lol )

Thank you. Always a chance to make lemonade out of lemons.  :)

Small step, but huge.

Today I wrote him in a sms text message:

' I gave it a lot of thought, this has been a week full of nightmares. This relationship has been incredibly damaging to me and it crossed so many boundaries. Considering everything that happened I think it is best if we never contact eachother anymore. My love for you was tremendous and real, but I am afraid that at some point you will unblock me agin in WhatsApp and the cycle starts allover again, like many times before.. and I can't do that anymore. I am terrified of what will happen then or even get worse. So I have to remove and block you from everywhere. I am sorry, take good care, J. '

I blocked him in WhatsApp and deleted his contact.. but didn't block his number in my contacts yet.
He thinks I did so I feel fairly safe.. but I just couldn't take that last step yet.
It feels incredibly sad but less agonising than him being aware I am still on the other end and that I am aware of him ghosting me.

Judee it is your process. Do what you have to do in order to be happy and live successfully.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Thank you.. tbh my mind is spinning over this one:
There is this one sentence in out last text convo where he says:' I am not as unsafe as you project me to be.'

This keeps me awake at night, doubt myself.
I developed a massive fear of BPD, which is also why I am averse of diagnosis. I find it hard to trust the disorder... and so hard to trust the person with borderline by default. I feel bad and judgemental for that.. but it does feel like a rational feeling to me.
Is this a healthy form of distrust or is he right?

That is a key issue in relationships with abusive partners—they undermine your sense of self and get you to not trust your instincts.

His behavior speaks for itself. Period.

That is the core of the matter, at least for me. Constantly rehashing in my mind things that were said and what happened in an attempt to believe myself and my experiences. I even find myself walking and talking to her in my mind, sometimes out loud, explaining things are not what she says they are, pointing out what she had said and what I had said...etc., etc.

It's so, so confusing and hurtful and stressful.

Their behaviors speak for themselves. Their words speak for themselves. Abuse is abuse, ghosting is ghosting (no matter how 'busy' they say they are, no matter how 'needy' they say you are- you know that they were very responsive and communicative in the beginning, you know their schedule).

A helpful thing I read somewhere is that verbally abusive partners WANT to hurt you with their words. That is their goal, to hurt you and make you doubt yourself. This is completely foreign to me, I don't understand it and have never engaged in it, thus I have had a hard time recognizing the truth of that.

But on the occasions where I do, I realize "why would I want to be with someone who intentionally wants to hurt me and make me feel bad?". I don't care 'why' they do it, maybe they are dysregulated, maybe they are feeling 'rejected', maybe they are projecting...who cares? They want to hurt with their words and actions, that is enough.

yea.. it is just horrible.
This is the guy who, barely a year ago,  tried to call me 6 times a day, it upset him everytime he couldn't reach me when I was on my way to the gym. This was the guy who said he loved me 10 times a day, texting me all day day long and asked me if I came back home safely. This was the guy I tried to reassure I was his and would do ANYTHING to take away his insecurities. (if I'd only known)
I did feel it as a little 'much' back then but I fell deeply in love. I guess that is the total confusion and mourning now.
This was the guy who said he wanted to marry me and ...just the other week... said he never dreamed so much about anyone like he did about us.
It just feels inhumane they someone can flip so quick. I mean I am trying to flip with him ( as in, breaking it all off) but it feels so unnatural to me.

It's unnatural to you because your brain is wired in a different way than his.  It is the source of confusion in dealing with an individual such as him.  My ex swore she would never want anyone else but me the rest of her life.  It was me or being alone.  The "final guy" as she put phrased it.  Flash forward a few short months, she is visiting a dude across the country.  So ... the mental whiplash and our confusion and pain over it, is understandable.  I read somewhere (or watched somewhere), that most people with bpd grieve a relationship in a shorter amount of time than other people.  It's because their emotional state is changing at a much quicker rate than everyone else.  What would take us say six weeks to cope with can take them a week (just an example of a timeframe).  It's why their moods can change on a dime.  They can go from telling you how amazing and euphoric they feel in one moment to telling you how worthless and empty they are and they are better off dead (mine did in the span of 5 minutes one night).
And as you know my story judee, does this make it easier on us?  No.  Because we have a difficult time, not understanding, but knowing that we cannot relate to how they are processing their feelings (which are real and genuine in the moment but too unstable to hold on to and rationalize).  We can only, hopefully, in whatever path it takes, find a way to move forward.  In my experience with two bpd's, the one thing I have come to realize is the only thing that would actually surprise me about their behavior is if they hit rock bottom and realized they need to be in intensive therapy to maintain a stable relationship.  Nothing my ex does surprises me anymore but if she called me in two years and something like that had happened, it would genuinely shock me.
I think viewing your behavior as "flipping" with him, is not an accurate way of looking at it.  You're protecting yourself and your heart and sanity.  He's responding to his fear of abandonment for realizing he cannot treat you however he wants and maintain his leash on you.  I think if you continue to look at it that way, you will continue to heal and let go.

@ jaded, yes, that is hard to believe... although I feel I know why he does that. In his perspective I hurt him, whether it is by not giving him enough attention, not calling him back soon enough, or his distorted perception of rejection otherwise.

@ cat, I know, deep down I know, I feel embaressed to even have these thoughts especially after how you all are making an effort in making me see.

@ adRock, thank you for that one and I agree, although my ex has shown to be quite stable in his feelings towards me.. he wasn't with anyone else in the 6 months we split, he expressed his heart was shattered.
but I feel that as long as I wasn't 'his' ( we hadn't passed the honeymoon phase yet) he could continue to idealise me when I am not around and only devaluate me when I was back in his life again.
What do you mean by : ' he is responding to his own fear of abandonment by realising... ... '?

Today I feel furious.
This morning I read about punishment and revenge in BPD and it struck so many cords that I feel like sending it to him and say : are you aware of how incredibly bonkers you are?
I would send him a text and he would wait sometimes for three of for days.. then when I would be fed up and tell him that I couldn't be with him like this, he would suddenly immediately reply and say that he still believed in us or that I had a problem or we needed therapy. This was crazy making. He even once said it was selfish of me to only send something to want a reply.
I never asked him why until the last couple of days... he never came with a good reason.
I have always felt it was some kind of power play or punishment. I even used that word a couple of times before ever reading it is so common in BPD.
So I am furious.
I don't know if I should have been reading, because it helps me on one hand to stay away but also keeps the pain very much alive.

BPD's have an intense fear of abandonment, both real and imaginary.  It is a common story on these boards and why many of us are left so confused.  I know many, many, MANY people on these boards over the years are left traumatized as to how the person who at their most emotional would BEG us not to leave them, only for them to do the very same thing to us with (seemingly) no regrets.
In your situation, especially as it stands right now, the abandonment he is feeling is real (whether that feels worse for them or not, I think only they could say) because you had enough of his behavior.
I understand the anger and reading anything you can on the subject.  My strongest advice?  Do not give in to your anger and reach out.  You are NOT going to ever be able to explain this to him in terms of why this is hurting you so much.  Even if he is in a rational mode when he hears it, something will trigger him and make him view it completely differently.  My advice would be the same even if you were trying to reconcile with him.  We desperately want them to see things from our perspective but unfortunately too many of them are not capable of doing that unless they are in therapy.  I know it hurts and he means what he says when he says it.  That makes the hurtful things he says to you painful as well.  Because he means those when he says them too.

I think one of the hardest things to let go of when ending a relationship with a pwBPD is our desire for them to understand the impact of their behavior upon us.

We may hope for them to have an epiphany and for them never again to treat another human being in such a way.

Or we may want them to feel remorse for how we suffered with their casual cruelty.

Maybe we just hope that they can better themselves so that they don’t feel so wounded.

Whatever our rationale, it has little chance for success. More likely any attempts for us to communicate our hurt will be transformed in their minds into: “How dare you continue to hurt me again?”

ALL of them... simultaneously.
Really exactly these, Cat. On the spot again.
Not going there, but ooff... I wish I could just shout 'skip intro' at this right now.
I thought my heart was broken in January, but this, this second time around... is much nastier.

It will be a double edged sword dealing with the heartache and feeling all of these things all at once.  We can't claim to care or love them if we don't want them to get better.  But if they do and we haven't fully healed, we might feel anger that they would not try to change for us.  It is unlikely (unfortunately for them) that they will try to get better in terms of a relationship but we can forge on to forgive ourselves and them and work on the life we want to live.
I think it feels worse the second time because you knew what he was capable of in terms of his behavior but you didn't want to believe he could do it again.

That is a key issue in relationships with abusive partners—they undermine your sense of self and get you to not trust your instincts.

His behavior speaks for itself. Period.

Judee, to back up my teammate Cat here...this is point blank as it gets. ^^^ Your response is in your post displaying exactly what Cat laid out. You are so battered mentally and emotionally you start to lose your sense of direction and confidence in yourself and reality. This is when you are vulnerable and more likely to soften up and make a mistake and then empathize with your abuser...thus essentially becoming a prey of Stockholm Syndrome.

Again, live your truth and don't question yourself. Keep your head up. You will get through and you are going to better and stronger.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Just learned the word 'negging' ( I am Dutch) which seemed to also be one of his favourite hobbies.
I am seeing things clearer and clearer, which also comes with anger unfortunately. For what he has put me through, what I let myself be dragged in.

@SC , Cat... Thank you for your responses, they are keeping me on 20/20 vision.
I am really happy he can't see my doubts.
I am sure in his mind, he feels rejected. Because he feels rejected and entitled regardless.