He came back after 6 months. Bear with me.

[AdRock]

I have to agree with Cat.  It sounds very much like he hasn't truly changed.  On the other hand, the progress you have made with yourself before communication started again, you are communicating what behaviors he is doing that you are not ok with.  You're right about text responses (it's a pet peeve of mine).  Yes, people lead busy lives and aren't always near their phone but it doesn't take much time to send a short text.  One thing that stuck out to me, you described once of his responses as 'robotic'.  Does he come off that way often?

[judee]

Not on the phone or live,
Only in text... he also sends 'inappropriate' responses, like ' great!" when we are in an argument and try to find a time to talk on the phone...or starts a text with Dear J-. like a formal letter.
I feel that is the only place he can try to control his emotional outbursts (which immediately resume when on the phone) is in text. But it just comes across as weird.

Last night I repeated something to him from the 'good' and happy version I got on the phone the day before yesterday.
He didn't remember anything of it. I felt my small hopes crumble at the spot.
I knew he had a drink or two, but I have never heard him so happy and loving on the phone. for me it felt off that he doesn't recall whole sentences at all,  so I asked him last night if there was something else in play ( drugs).
And that I can imagine since his friend S was around (and I know he uses drugs recreationally).
My exwBPD replied: can we please talk about this tomorrow?
and closes with a sweet dreams, a fire and a heart. ( again, a bit weird considering the situ?)
The happy version on the phone also said in the middle his tongue felt numb.
I feel there is a yes coming. I don't want to be with anyone who uses drugs, not even occasionally. so curious to see how this will unfold.

Thanks, you both.. I know, I have to be really careful and tbh I feel like an absolute towel to get myself again in this mess. But really really grateful for your words... I feel like I am slowly slipping but I keep rereading what you all say and it pulls me back to me. I guess a small from of self doubt has crept in, because I am talking to him so much.
I only have small hopes now, and that is that I can keep from talking to him today.. and disengage little by little.
I know all emotions sink a little after a few days.

[Silverdash]

Im experiencing similar behavior from my pwBpD. After 'us' ended and we became friends he regularly messages me. Things he likes. Things he thinks Id like. Stuff he wants my view on. Friendly. Some times sharing very personal info on his GF. Tells me how she is treating him, describes unfair selfish behavior, which makes him in look like a victim. This was the routine for many months since joining bpdfamily. Recently there have been gaps in messages. Days of silence. He knows this is a trigger for me. I try to ignore it. Codepend. me used to attempt to initiate n restart chatter. Ive worked hard on my codep. issue. Now I donot initiate if my last message was ignored. It is frustrating. This is the hardest I have worked at ANY relationship. It has (re)brought up and helped me address my own issues. I do want friendship. I would say yes to more BUT doubt it will ever be offered again. It hurts knowing he is dealing with his own demons of abandonment and emptiness. Often Id want to hug him BUT donot want to cross boundaries. Yeah it is all confusing and still straight forward when you remind your self that they have BpD. The usual social rules donotapply!

[Cat Familiar]

Since this is the Detaching and Learning Board, I feel a bit freer to share that holding onto hope for a healthy romantic relationship with someone, who demonstrably has shown they have little consideration for your feelings and wants connection only on their terms, is chasing a phantasm.

The cold hard truth is that at the beginning, they were able to lure you in by being the embodiment of what you hoped a romantic partner would be.

However, it was either too much work to continue the fantasy or they got bored once they saw that you were hooked.

Why is it so hard to let go of the dream that this *wonderful person* you met at the beginning could return once again?

Think of the concept of intermittent reinforcement– “when rewards are given out inconsistently and infrequently – it’s an extremely powerful tool of manipulation. It is used constantly in abusive relationships, and it has the ability to make someone feel bonded to the person who is emotionally abusing them.”

I’ve been there too. I know how powerful the hold is when the *reward* of warmth, caring, kind words, attention, love is sparingly doled out—then withheld.

To step out of this, you have to look at the big picture. Is this how you deserve to be treated? Do you truly believe this person will ever behave differently toward you? What keeps you from being available for a relationship with an emotionally healthy partner?

[AdRock]

In response to you Cat (and I truly admire and appreciate your brutal honesty on the subject), I would say what makes it so hard to let go of the fantasy is that they do not seem to understand that their behavior is abusive.  I can only speak for myself and my former friend/lover but she did not seem to understand her behavior was not always appropriate.  But when she ended things, she would start talking like a completely different person.  I defend her, in spite of how selfish and unfair she is with me, because I know she is not a bad person or malicious, just often reckless.  And a lot of what she said at the end seemed to be out of a desire not to hurt me further.  It's one reason it's hard to let go of the fantasy.  Of course, a harsher truth is that even if they commit to working on improving themselves and their behavior in relationships, they probably will not talk to you again.

[judee]

Please feel free Cat, I stayed in the detachment board not without a reason...
Your words make a lot of sense, I get a bit nauseous reading about the intermittent reinforcement.

Adrock, there is no way I feel privileged to have been saying in contact with him for so long (or again) ...
I love him immensely but as anyone knows and has warned me about, I am going down, fast.

Our last (final) conversation ( this is really personal, but I feel I need to share it) :

Day before yesterday:
Me: 'Were you using anything else than alcohol when we spoke? I am asking because It is confusing to me. I loved that version of you .. and to hear you don't remember what you said feels disorienting. I am asking because I know S (friend he was with) does and I can imagine when it is around.' ( he does use coke occasionally)
Him: 'Can we please talk about this tomorrow ?'
Me: 'OK'
 
Yesterday:
Me: 'I got a lot of faith from a conversation I had with you when you were under influence.. and apparently don't remember much from. The day after, I feel your 'normal' self is back again ( ignoring sweet messages for a day) and it leaves me confused. If everything is bliss when i speak to you when you are drunk ( and/or something else)...and I am completely sober, what does that tell you?'
Him: 'Wow, I do remember a great deal. And it was so lovely. And fyi I wasn't using other drugs. And its these kind of assumptions I don't like. ASSUME=ASS OF U & ME.'
Me: 'You didn't make it clear, I asked.'
Him: 'I have to go now.' ( he doesn't.. but it is like hanging up or walking out to me)
Me: 'Of course. (and here I lose my patience) To me this is one of the most inconsistent, emotionally destructive relationships I have ever been in. You are so eager to point the finger at me but are you aware, or just ask yourself if maybe you have a part in this? It is either you bottle it all up and emotionally disconnect or throw it all out and everything explodes. I am trying to trust this but help me out here: how? '
Him: 'Why then, do you continue if I am the most destructive ever?
Me: ( thinking: good question) do you want an honest answer?
Him: ?
Me: 'I never learned how to set boundaries. Emotional neglect as a child. My father and brothers left when I was three . My mother was kind but never there. I was expected to be independent from the age of 8. apparently I feel safe in unsafety. '
Him: 'I am sorry, but I know I am not as unsafe as you project me to be.'
Me: ' OK... but I fell for someone that is diagnosed with BPD. I want to believe you. Believe me I do.'
Him: ' My diagnosis don't define me, Just like yours ( Crohn's ) doesn't either.
Me: 'True.' ' I can't talk about this in WhatsApp, if you can call, then call.
Him:' I don't trust that, I told you when I can call' ( I feel he actually means control instead of trust? )
Me: 'oh tonight? I don't trust you will, but I will give it to you anyway ' ( about 80 percent of the time 'something came up' and he doesn't ).
Him: 'OK, you know what... I am done. I don't want to call anymore because I am sure it will get us nowhere.' ( something came up already)
Me: 'How can you expect me to trust you if you keep on reverting to this?'
Him: ' You give me no choice.'
Me:' I said my trust was damaged in that you call when you say you do, but I am giving it to you anyway.'
Him: ' everything I do damages your trust in me.'
Me: ' Do you want to call tonight or do you want to break up again?' I don't know anymore.
Him: ' fck you.'
Me: ?
Him: 'You are sick.'
Him: ' I want you out of my life'
Him: 'stop typing'
Me: I think this is what is called emotional dysregulation. ( I am trying to observe instead of letting it get to me)
Me: I am sorry.
Him: Are you a trained therapist? or a narcissist?
Me: neither.
Him : 'Exactly.'
Me: ' This can never be repaired. Go. Enough is enough.'
Him: 'Gone.'

Then he blocked me.

[AdRock]

Judee, I apologize if I gave you the impression that it was a privilege to be able to reconnect with him.  I did not mean to do that especially with what you are going through.  I read the conversation you had with him a few times.  I'm at a loss as to his treatment of you.  His awareness of his condition has not had any real bearing on how he treats you and he still engages in patterns that are unhealthy.  I hope you continue to vent/share on the board to help you through this.  He's being emotionally abusive and it sounds to me like he knows exactly what he is doing.  I think one thing to hold onto is, you were able to verbally express to him what behaviors you were not ok with, including his lack of explanations to things.  That probably doesn't feel like much but it shows you know your self worth and what you won't tolerate.

[judee]

Oh, no I was actually trying to comfort you ..like, it is no blueberry pancake if a BPD returns.
Thank you lot for your take on it. At this moment I feel like I am one big gaping wound, and it is hard to see things clear. To type down what litterally happens and see your response then however, is helpful.

I just went for a two hour walk and I notice my system is in quite severe stress mode. Very fearful, it seems.  A dog walking towards me, a van door closing, everything makes my adrenaline go up and my whole body tingles.

yes, it does help to have been keeping expressing to him what I observe happening. I feel like therefore it isn't ' sticking' to me so much, because I made him know that I am 'on' to him.
I don't know if I would recommend it though.. at least I felt I had to be careful because I also know he can have suicidal thoughts. But it did feel at least like some kind of self-defence.

Although going through all this, I feel deep down the universe has saved me from having to be with him any longer.
I want to hold on to that thought, without denying my pain. About a lost dream, a massive slip, the loss of his amazing sides and the damage done. 

I think anyone who gets to break from a BPD is saved by the universe. Whether you are broken up with or are strong enough to go... It is the best chance you can get, take it.

[jaded7]

Please feel free Cat, I stayed in the detachment board not without a reason...
Your words make a lot of sense, I get a bit nauseous reading about the intermittent reinforcement.

Adrock, there is no way I feel privileged to have been saying in contact with him for so long (or again) ...
I love him immensely but as anyone knows and has warned me about, I am going down, fast.

Our last (final) conversation ( this is really personal, but I feel I need to share it) :

Day before yesterday:
Me: 'Were you using anything else than alcohol when we spoke? I am asking because It is confusing to me. I loved that version of you .. and to hear you don't remember what you said feels disorienting. I am asking because I know S (friend he was with) does and I can imagine when it is around.' ( he does use coke occasionally)
Him: 'Can we please talk about this tomorrow ?'
Me: 'OK'
 
Yesterday:
Me: 'I got a lot of faith from a conversation I had with you when you were under influence.. and apparently don't remember much from. The day after, I feel your 'normal' self is back again ( ignoring sweet messages for a day) and it leaves me confused. If everything is bliss when i speak to you when you are drunk ( and/or something else)...and I am completely sober, what does that tell you?'
Him: 'Wow, I do remember a great deal. And it was so lovely. And fyi I wasn't using other drugs. And its these kind of assumptions I don't like. ASSUME=ASS OF U & ME.'
Me: 'You didn't make it clear, I asked.'
Him: 'I have to go now.' ( he doesn't.. but it is like hanging up or walking out to me)
Me: 'Of course. (and here I lose my patience) To me this is one of the most inconsistent, emotionally destructive relationships I have ever been in. You are so eager to point the finger at me but are you aware, or just ask yourself if maybe you have a part in this? It is either you bottle it all up and emotionally disconnect or throw it all out and everything explodes. I am trying to trust this but help me out here: how? '
Him: 'Why then, do you continue if I am the most destructive ever?
Me: ( thinking: good question) do you want an honest answer?
Him: ?
Me: 'I never learned how to set boundaries. Emotional neglect as a child. My father and brothers left when I was three . My mother was kind but never there. I was expected to be independent from the age of 8. apparently I feel safe in unsafety. '
Him: 'I am sorry, but I know I am not as unsafe as you project me to be.'
Me: ' OK... but I fell for someone that is diagnosed with BPD. I want to believe you. Believe me I do.'
Him: ' My diagnosis don't define me, Just like yours ( Crohn's ) doesn't either.
Me: 'True.' ' I can't talk about this in WhatsApp, if you can call, then call.
Him:' I don't trust that, I told you when I can call' ( I feel he actually means control instead of trust? )
Me: 'oh tonight? I don't trust you will, but I will give it to you anyway ' ( about 80 percent of the time 'something came up' and he doesn't ).
Him: 'OK, you know what... I am done. I don't want to call anymore because I am sure it will get us nowhere.' ( something came up already)
Me: 'How can you expect me to trust you if you keep on reverting to this?'
Him: ' You give me no choice.'
Me:' I said my trust was damaged in that you call when you say you do, but I am giving it to you anyway.'
Him: ' everything I do damages your trust in me.'
Me: ' Do you want to call tonight or do you want to break up again?' I don't know anymore.
Him: ' fck you.'
Me: ?
Him: 'You are sick.'
Him: ' I want you out of my life'
Him: 'stop typing'
Me: I think this is what is called emotional dysregulation. ( I am trying to observe instead of letting it get to me)
Me: I am sorry.
Him: Are you a trained therapist? or a narcissist?
Me: neither.
Him : 'Exactly.'
Me: ' This can never be repaired. Go. Enough is enough.'
Him: 'Gone.'

Then he blocked me.

That is a really painful dialogue to read. Painful because of all the misdirection and diversion on his part, the threats and rapid escalation, the non-sensical nature of it. This is classic word salad-ing and misdirection of an emotionally abusive person. Refusal to acknowledge what HE said "Can we talk about this tomorrow" (classic move- refusal to engage with what you said at the time) then refusal to talk about it tomorrow, then you trying to explain that he said let's talk about it tomorrow...it just goes on and on.

Been there. You can't get anywhere because they are unable to acknowledge their role in things, they can't. So they have to revert to the techniques you see in this. When those techniques don't work for them- i.e. you keep stating the truth of what happened/what was said, you state how his behavior makes you feel, etc.-they escalate to attacks, then to ultimatums, then to unilaterally cutting off the conversation, then to ending the relationship with put-downs and name calling.

It's a well-defined pattern I'm familiar with.

[judee]

Yea, it is really scary to experience, because I am still emotionally involved...you feel like nothing makes sense anymore, I am letting myself be dragged into corners that are irrelevant only for him to use it as an even absurder bat to smack with.

[Cat Familiar]

This dialog is reminiscent of what I experienced with my abusive ex husband, prior to knowing anything about BPD.

Good for you for holding firm with what you were trying to communicate. 

The pattern I typically experienced with my ex was when I tried to bring up an issue, he’d so confuse and redirect the conversation, that I would end up apologizing and promising to be *better*. Then hours later, alone, I’d wonder WTF happened? He never was available to address my concerns. There was no apology for bad behavior on his part. Conversations were always deflections of his role or responsibilities.

[AdRock]

It is a gaping wound right now and because of your emotional involvement, you are torn between your logic and emotions (as you yourself are describing right now).  Logically, you know how much better off you are without an emotionally abusive person who refuses to change and will continue to treat you this way.  Emotionally, you are distraught.

The important thing we have to remember is these wounds do not have to be fatal.  My own wound (and she has given me many over the years) has currently clotted.  I try to leave it alone but backpedal so it will continue to bleed if I do not let it heal.  And after it has clotted, it will scab over.  Then one day it will leave a scar that you live with.

Keep doing what you have to judee.  Feel the pain now and find any outlet you can to lessen it (healthy ones of course would be better).  We are here for you.

[judee]

Oy yea, the mindfck.

One time 6 months ago, on the moment we ' broke up'  wrote a formal letter to my two partners in business ( I am a designer, I own a company with two guys) , giving them a business proposal.
This, to me,  was an act of aggression. ( luckily my business partners thought it was weird an inappropriate the least )
When I told my ex I felt betrayed by this , his reply was : ' I was trying to be professional...'
I was raising ten eyebrows if I had them.
He then paused for a long time, and said: '... you know what? I actually feel betrayed by YOU, because we weren't supposed to talk about it now.. you don't remember that?
In all honesty, with a really small apologetic voice  I said ' No, I must have misunderstood then... '
Then he walked out furious, because I betrayed HIM.
And we never talked about it anymore.

Writing this down, seeing it,  is like ... oofff, was this really me?

[judee]

HE wrote a letter to my business partners... it had to be in the first sentence.

[judee]

AdRock,

Thank you for saying that. Good for you you feel yours has clotted.. What would complete healing look/feel like for you?
I feel two things massively speed up healing from a toxic relationship , and we all need both:
One is truly seeing what happened, and recognising it,  without a doubt. This website is of an enormous value to help with that.
Second is to value ourselves enough not to even want to come close to engaging with 'what truly happened'. Ever. Again.

[AdRock]

What would complete healing look like for me?  How much time do you have judee (afraid of commandeering your discussion board).
Short answer, when I can forgive her behavior and when I can forgive my own.  I read a lot of old posts on here, seeing the journey of others.  I wish I had known about it years ago for a toxic friendship I was in that first introduced me to what is bpd is and how to navigate codependency with one.  That friend is long gone but even now I think about her and wonder if I ever truly forgave her or myself for what happened.  Maybe I just buried it all.  Like my ex lover, my ex friend doesn't behave out of cruelty and they both are aware they have mental health issues.  But their behavior towards me was always selfish and when I failed to be the perfect 'whatever they wanted me to be', they would leave.
Whether we ever truly heal or not (unfortunately, some don't, in various life circumstances), we move forward and on.  But forgiveness when we find ourselves able to is probably the answer.  To recognize the situation was not fixable but that I played a role in the relationship and cannot pawn the train wreck on her.  I tried (I know you understand, I tried) to put up boundaries and make it work but it couldn't.  And then I blamed myself.  So I know forgiveness it will take a long time.  And if she comes back, I don't see any other way to handle it maturely unless I forgive both of us.

[judee]

The past few days are absolutely horrific.
I go through all the pain, rejection, looking at whatsapp, seeing myself still blocked, trying to process.
I am having nightmares and wake up multiple times a night, not remembering at first what happened when it dawns on me something bad happened. Then I wake up to reality and it is too hard to bear, really.

I sent him a SMStext message yesterday saying that I was devastated by his words and sudden 'disappearing act' .I wrote him it triggers a lot of pain from when I was a child. ( my mother was absolutely lovable, nothing like my BPD ex, yet she was allover the place,  came and went whenever she felt like. I never knew where she was and that left trauma ) and I told him nobody ever used these words to me.
He was still in dysregulation mode I think, because he  took my vulnerability as an opportunity to empower himself even more ( or maybe it is shame deflection, he cannot handle his own so I have to be at fault)  telling me I need to get help and that he is not willing to communicate with me unless I do that. If I want he is willing to come with me.
This feels so eery to me. I just can't imagine to respond that to someone you love and I sink down even more, maybe from sheer desillusion that I wasn't expecting that.. It feels narcissistic to me, I don't think he is particularly but I noticed before that when he dysregulates there is a massive hunger to take the power and control. No matter how small I am.

I replied to him: ' No, it is alright, you just showed me who you truly are. Not trusting you was a sign of health. Your words don't harm me anymore, they are all yours.'

But the truth is, they do. I just can't or refuse to believe this is the same guy that I spoke to last Monday. The guy that told me he was happy as 4 year old that I called, it was me all the time. all this year he was thinking about me everyday, and we DO have a relationship.. we said that we loved eachother and I asked him to come with me abroad in a few weeks to see my friends baby. He Said he LOVED to and laughed as he said how good of a long distance driver he is. I could kiss his face through the phone, so happy I felt.


AdRock,
Forgiveness, of course, how could I forget.

There are therapists that believe that repeating trauma's actually keeps them alive, because you keep the pain 'updated'.
I don't know, I am not a therapist. But personally I need to talk about it. 
I do however feel that this board , even though extremely beneficial and for al lot of us ( incl me) a lifeline , can also function as e-smoking when trying to quit smoking.
 It is not causing more damage , but you keep making the same movements and same inhalations...it can kind of keep you in the attachment as well.

If it can be of help, I  know from my past there were two people I though I could NEVER forgive. One was my narcissistic ex and the other one was another (fairly normal) ex. It both happened, miraculously. First one took about three years ( and never saw him again) , the second .. we still are close and can laugh a lot together.
I do think it will happen for you.
Forgiveness is a weird thing, you can't force it, you can't speed it up... then at a certain moment it is like the storm has passed. You can see the whole picture including how the other person hurt or betrayed you and STILL accept the whole picture, or maybe be even grateful for it.
I can say I am grateful for my experience with my narcissistic ex. I had the time of my life with him, traveling, talking.. he had a sense of humour and intelligence that was delicious. Yet, he traumatised me, probably for life. But he also gave me the insights in my codependancy. So, yea.. that is how it is. It took me there years though, of going deep down in my feelings of anger and despise towards him. ( and I truly recommend going to those places in your pain , without holding back or censuring .. Rob Bell has a brilliant podcast about that, if you like I can send it )

[AdRock]

Judee, my heart is absolutely breaking for what you're going through because I have and am still actually there, despite trying to take some positive steps for myself (but my impatience gets in the way).  I have read and watched that to go through TRUE no contact, is not just a simple matter of not contacting them or not responding if they reach out to you.  A video I watched said it is to ensure they can NEVER contact you again no matter what for the rest of your life.   Block their number, block their social media, anything you have to do.  For me, this seems extreme because she has made zero attempts to engage with me but, it would be step one for me in putting it to bed.  Naturally, I am unable to do that, although after what I saw she posted last night, I am strongly tempted to (I don't want to ramble on your thread about my situation but will explain if you want).
For you, because of what you're currently feeling, this might be the approach you need to take.  I know he has blocked you and (I don't have what's app) I don't think you can block someone back  but you should consider cutting the cord in any other way so you can begin to heal.  That is a suggestion because obviously I myself am not in the place to do so yet.  For me personally, beyond my back and forth emotions of being numb to missing her to then being triggered by any revelation that she would rather engage with my replacement (without caring anymore that I  or her husband that she's separated from can view it), I am making myself physically ill over this due to the anxiety over it.
I would like to see us both make attempts to further distance ourselves from these two individuals so we can heal better.  Yours is very fresh but I keep backsliding and find a way to reopen my wound.  If it would help beyond engaging with the other threads on this board, you are welcome to private message me.  Your words have meant much to me in particular and I hope mine ease your pain a bit.

[Cat Familiar]

These types of relationships become like an addiction. We know they are hurting us, but we still keep engaging in some way, with the hope that we will obtain that good feeling that originally got us hooked.

I had hoped to remain *friends* with my abusive ex husband due to attachment and fond memories of good times. He made it easier to cut the cord by doing things that were so unkind and downright evil.

Over time, I had to think of him as a truly awful person and not the sweet, kind person that he was at times. I certainly had a lot of evidence to back up thinking of him as *bad* but at the same time, that negated my experience of why I ever got involved with him in the first place. However, focusing on all the awful things he did to me was a needed strategy to break the addiction.

Now, years later, the only things I know about him are that he physically attacked his next wife, was arrested, fled, had an arrest warrant in California, moved to Hawaii, then moved to Florida, never visiting his elderly mother prior to her death. (His nephew filled me on on some of these details.) For a while, I got frequent calls from creditors in Florida where he had skipped out on payments and apparently had moved several times.

Out of the blue, I got a call from a young woman who was looking for him. She was his daughter that he had never met, conceived when he was married to me. 

My current view of him is of a pathetic, damaged human being, who behaved abusively to me and others in a sad attempt to give himself some status and control.

In many cases, I really don’t think there’s a possibility of ever being *friends* with some of these people. They are too damaged and too emotionally underdeveloped to be able to be equals. Perhaps it’s better to rip the bandage off fast and continue to focus on healing, rather than to try and resurrect some glimpse of the dream of who you think that person could be at their best.

[judee]

too emotionally underdeveloped to be able to be equals.

This resonates a lot...and I agree. When I sent him my last text message saying how painful it is what he said and then disappeared and I worried about him at the same time... I was actually envisioning I was saying that to a ' normal' person... a.i my ex of 11 years. Then I saw more clearly how disordered his response was, how void of empathy. It is also deeply confronting. I almost shared my life with this guy.

Cat, I am so sorry for what you have been through. In some way maybe reassuring to know he just continued to make a  mess in his life, in sense of, you weren't wrong in your view of him.
The moment you found out of the child he made while you were married... you must have felt devastated.
I am happy for you you got out, at least and continue your journey of leaving it all behind you. I know for a lot of people here you have been of tremendous help, so if it can be good for something, you put what you went through to the best use.

[Cat Familiar]

When I sent him my last text message saying how painful it is what he said and then disappeared and I worried about him at the same time... I was actually envisioning I was saying that to a ' normal' person... a.i my ex of 11 years.Then I saw more clearly how disordered his response was, how void of empathy. It is also deeply confronting. I almost shared my life with this guy.

They can maintain a reasonable facsimile of *normality* for long enough to make us believe it, despite our perceptions.

That lack of empathy, however, can be stunning.

“People without the ability to empathize are unable to love another person and put their needs above their own.”  Dr. Steven Hassan is a cult survivor and is the preeminent expert for helping get others out of cults. So many of these abusive relationships share similar dynamics to cults.

He uses an acronym: BITE to explain the different types of control cult leaders (and abusive partners) can use: Behavioral, Information, Thought, Emotion. Interesting parallels between cults and relationships with partners who have a personality disorder.

In some way maybe reassuring to know he just continued to make a  mess in his life, in sense of, you weren't wrong in your view of him.

Certainly it was a validation. I chalk it up to unbridled optimism that I thought he could ever change. 

The moment you found out of the child he made while you were married... you must have felt devastated.

Fortunately I was long out of the relationship by this point, and I had heard some rumors in the past. When she called and asked for him, I heard the Southern accent and I knew exactly who she was. She was surprised when I asked about her mother. It turned out that she and my ex had a lot of interests in common. She was about to graduate from college and marry her pre-med boyfriend, with an eye on a career in pharmacology research, developing new drugs. (My ex was very interested in drugs too.  )

I am happy for you you got out, at least and continue your journey of leaving it all behind you. I know for a lot of people here you have been of tremendous help, so if it can be good for something, you put what you went through to the best use.

Thank you. Always a chance to make lemonade out of lemons. 

[judee]

Small step, but huge.

Today I wrote him in a sms text message:

' I gave it a lot of thought, this has been a week full of nightmares. This relationship has been incredibly damaging to me and it crossed so many boundaries. Considering everything that happened I think it is best if we never contact eachother anymore. My love for you was tremendous and real, but I am afraid that at some point you will unblock me agin in WhatsApp and the cycle starts allover again, like many times before.. and I can't do that anymore. I am terrified of what will happen then or even get worse. So I have to remove and block you from everywhere. I am sorry, take good care, J. '

I blocked him in WhatsApp and deleted his contact.. but didn't block his number in my contacts yet.
He thinks I did so I feel fairly safe.. but I just couldn't take that last step yet.
It feels incredibly sad but less agonising than him being aware I am still on the other end and that I am aware of him ghosting me.

[SinisterComplex]

Small step, but huge.

Today I wrote him in a sms text message:

' I gave it a lot of thought, this has been a week full of nightmares. This relationship has been incredibly damaging to me and it crossed so many boundaries. Considering everything that happened I think it is best if we never contact eachother anymore. My love for you was tremendous and real, but I am afraid that at some point you will unblock me agin in WhatsApp and the cycle starts allover again, like many times before.. and I can't do that anymore. I am terrified of what will happen then or even get worse. So I have to remove and block you from everywhere. I am sorry, take good care, J. '

I blocked him in WhatsApp and deleted his contact.. but didn't block his number in my contacts yet.
He thinks I did so I feel fairly safe.. but I just couldn't take that last step yet.
It feels incredibly sad but less agonising than him being aware I am still on the other end and that I am aware of him ghosting me.

Judee it is your process. Do what you have to do in order to be happy and live successfully.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[judee]

Thank you.. tbh my mind is spinning over this one:
There is this one sentence in out last text convo where he says:' I am not as unsafe as you project me to be.'

This keeps me awake at night, doubt myself.
I developed a massive fear of BPD, which is also why I am averse of diagnosis. I find it hard to trust the disorder... and so hard to trust the person with borderline by default. I feel bad and judgemental for that.. but it does feel like a rational feeling to me.
Is this a healthy form of distrust or is he right?

[Cat Familiar]

That is a key issue in relationships with abusive partners—they undermine your sense of self and get you to not trust your instincts.

His behavior speaks for itself. Period.

[jaded7]

That is a key issue in relationships with abusive partners—they undermine your sense of self and get you to not trust your instincts.

His behavior speaks for itself. Period.

That is the core of the matter, at least for me. Constantly rehashing in my mind things that were said and what happened in an attempt to believe myself and my experiences. I even find myself walking and talking to her in my mind, sometimes out loud, explaining things are not what she says they are, pointing out what she had said and what I had said...etc., etc.

It's so, so confusing and hurtful and stressful.

Their behaviors speak for themselves. Their words speak for themselves. Abuse is abuse, ghosting is ghosting (no matter how 'busy' they say they are, no matter how 'needy' they say you are- you know that they were very responsive and communicative in the beginning, you know their schedule).

A helpful thing I read somewhere is that verbally abusive partners WANT to hurt you with their words. That is their goal, to hurt you and make you doubt yourself. This is completely foreign to me, I don't understand it and have never engaged in it, thus I have had a hard time recognizing the truth of that.

But on the occasions where I do, I realize "why would I want to be with someone who intentionally wants to hurt me and make me feel bad?". I don't care 'why' they do it, maybe they are dysregulated, maybe they are feeling 'rejected', maybe they are projecting...who cares? They want to hurt with their words and actions, that is enough.

[judee]

yea.. it is just horrible.
This is the guy who, barely a year ago,  tried to call me 6 times a day, it upset him everytime he couldn't reach me when I was on my way to the gym. This was the guy who said he loved me 10 times a day, texting me all day day long and asked me if I came back home safely. This was the guy I tried to reassure I was his and would do ANYTHING to take away his insecurities. (if I'd only known)
I did feel it as a little 'much' back then but I fell deeply in love. I guess that is the total confusion and mourning now.
This was the guy who said he wanted to marry me and ...just the other week... said he never dreamed so much about anyone like he did about us.
It just feels inhumane they someone can flip so quick. I mean I am trying to flip with him ( as in, breaking it all off) but it feels so unnatural to me.

[AdRock]

It's unnatural to you because your brain is wired in a different way than his.  It is the source of confusion in dealing with an individual such as him.  My ex swore she would never want anyone else but me the rest of her life.  It was me or being alone.  The "final guy" as she put phrased it.  Flash forward a few short months, she is visiting a dude across the country.  So ... the mental whiplash and our confusion and pain over it, is understandable.  I read somewhere (or watched somewhere), that most people with bpd grieve a relationship in a shorter amount of time than other people.  It's because their emotional state is changing at a much quicker rate than everyone else.  What would take us say six weeks to cope with can take them a week (just an example of a timeframe).  It's why their moods can change on a dime.  They can go from telling you how amazing and euphoric they feel in one moment to telling you how worthless and empty they are and they are better off dead (mine did in the span of 5 minutes one night).
And as you know my story judee, does this make it easier on us?  No.  Because we have a difficult time, not understanding, but knowing that we cannot relate to how they are processing their feelings (which are real and genuine in the moment but too unstable to hold on to and rationalize).  We can only, hopefully, in whatever path it takes, find a way to move forward.  In my experience with two bpd's, the one thing I have come to realize is the only thing that would actually surprise me about their behavior is if they hit rock bottom and realized they need to be in intensive therapy to maintain a stable relationship.  Nothing my ex does surprises me anymore but if she called me in two years and something like that had happened, it would genuinely shock me.
I think viewing your behavior as "flipping" with him, is not an accurate way of looking at it.  You're protecting yourself and your heart and sanity.  He's responding to his fear of abandonment for realizing he cannot treat you however he wants and maintain his leash on you.  I think if you continue to look at it that way, you will continue to heal and let go.

[judee]

jaded, yes, that is hard to believe... although I feel I know why he does that. In his perspective I hurt him, whether it is by not giving him enough attention, not calling him back soon enough, or his distorted perception of rejection otherwise.

cat, I know, deep down I know, I feel embaressed to even have these thoughts especially after how you all are making an effort in making me see.

adRock, thank you for that one and I agree, although my ex has shown to be quite stable in his feelings towards me.. he wasn't with anyone else in the 6 months we split, he expressed his heart was shattered.
but I feel that as long as I wasn't 'his' ( we hadn't passed the honeymoon phase yet) he could continue to idealise me when I am not around and only devaluate me when I was back in his life again.
What do you mean by : ' he is responding to his own fear of abandonment by realising... ... '?

Today I feel furious.
This morning I read about punishment and revenge in BPD and it struck so many cords that I feel like sending it to him and say : are you aware of how incredibly bonkers you are?
I would send him a text and he would wait sometimes for three of for days.. then when I would be fed up and tell him that I couldn't be with him like this, he would suddenly immediately reply and say that he still believed in us or that I had a problem or we needed therapy. This was crazy making. He even once said it was selfish of me to only send something to want a reply.
I never asked him why until the last couple of days... he never came with a good reason.
I have always felt it was some kind of power play or punishment. I even used that word a couple of times before ever reading it is so common in BPD.
So I am furious.
I don't know if I should have been reading, because it helps me on one hand to stay away but also keeps the pain very much alive.

[AdRock]

BPD's have an intense fear of abandonment, both real and imaginary.  It is a common story on these boards and why many of us are left so confused.  I know many, many, MANY people on these boards over the years are left traumatized as to how the person who at their most emotional would BEG us not to leave them, only for them to do the very same thing to us with (seemingly) no regrets.
In your situation, especially as it stands right now, the abandonment he is feeling is real (whether that feels worse for them or not, I think only they could say) because you had enough of his behavior.
I understand the anger and reading anything you can on the subject.  My strongest advice?  Do not give in to your anger and reach out.  You are NOT going to ever be able to explain this to him in terms of why this is hurting you so much.  Even if he is in a rational mode when he hears it, something will trigger him and make him view it completely differently.  My advice would be the same even if you were trying to reconcile with him.  We desperately want them to see things from our perspective but unfortunately too many of them are not capable of doing that unless they are in therapy.  I know it hurts and he means what he says when he says it.  That makes the hurtful things he says to you painful as well.  Because he means those when he says them too.