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Now, I've done spirituality in the past, and even recently, and it's normally not very good for me, as it overwhelms me and tends to cause things to change too rapidly and causes trauma to come up. Now I've worked hard on codependency, and gathered wisdom, from my own experiences, experiments, reflections, etc. But I just don't feel ready for a spiritual life, because of how it's affected me, even though, I value some kind words from it, especially for myself, in moderation.

Anyways, now that I am learning to detach from all these people who were abusive, and feel more isolated, and am trying to reconnect to the world. I feel really scared, that with my pets getting old, and not having many connections yet, that if they died, I'd like, be forced into some spiritual life, that I don't want, because I'd not have connections and be more detached or something.

I would like deeper friendships in the long run, and I like personal relationships, I even like attachment, when it's healthy, like with my animals for instance. I like investing a lot in a person or animal that feels important to me. I'm not looking to be some monk or something, even though when I am at my best, I can offer more kindness and wisdom.

I think someone linked a book on attachment recently to me. I know my sense of attachment is not always healthy, because of my own fears and intimacy issues, and then because the people I have connected to, weren't healthy themselves.

Any thoughts that could reassure me, that I have a choice in what I do with my life? I feel like I do have this choice to pursue spirituality or not, but it's like. I feel like somehow, it's forced upon me, and it scares me. I've dabbled in it in the last few years or so, and it's fine, if I do it very occasionally, like only when I want, but when I pile it on, to any significant degree, it hurts me a lot, and backfires.

So do things only if YOU want to do them. If you do not and people have a problem with it...tough S :cursing:. Next, don't allow yourself to have a weight of obligation placed upon you. That would be false. This is your life and what you do with it is up to you including how you respond, etc. In essence, everything that is in your control focus on. Everything that is not in your control don't worry about because it either will happen or won't but you have no dog in that fight.

Also, it depends on what type of connections fulfill you and make you happy. Do you want deep intimate connections? Do you want intellectual connections? Do you want just surface connections? Etc.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Yeah, I guess I feel some guilt and obligation to do a spiritual life, even though I rarely want to, because I got told by a lot of people in Buddhist circles that I was supposed to do it, and supposed to give up my version of sexuality and sex (not something I believe) Don't normally listen to it, but it's under the radar. Also, lately because of the trauma, it can be hard to know what I want and don't want, and it's hard to discern that. And I can also be more impressionable, because of being estranged from myself and it's hard to dispel stupid stuff in my head. Another thing is, because of recent circumstances, when I pushed myself insanely hard, I had spiritual experiences, without even meditating... which felt super forced on me. (doubt that will happen now that I am less manic though, which I normally am not that hyperactive)

Another thing is, like, I've had a strong grief process for those close to me, that has been super therapeutic to me, it's very PERSONAL, when it was people close to me, and I get scared that the less I cling and fear loss, the more grief process will be diminished, and I won't even go through the 5 stages of grief anymore or something, because of higher levels of detachment (another probably false things that I heard from a person in Buddhism). I assume if you have people close to you, you will still feel this way, just work through it faster or easier or have more support because of more connections or something?

Good point, I haven't even thought about wanting intellectual connections, lol. I suppose I do need to think about the types of connections that I want sometime. I think, I feel in a vulnerable place, and it's hard to connect a lot. But eventually I might want a girlfriend, and when I heal more, I'd want at least a few close friends, who have some emotional intelligence, but also intellectual connections would be awesome, since I super logical often, and feel most comfortable in that mode.

Thanks SC

Hey Narcs,

I'm not sure I understand it right here, so sorry if this is of not help to you... I just... What do you mean by spirituality and spiritual life?

Because for me, spirituality is just a state of being, and has to do with one's awareness. It doesn't have to be linked with God or anything either... It's personal. It's how we make sense of things for ourselves. It can be feeling, a knowing, but it's deeply personal.

And so, I am not sure why you feel being isolated is what would pull you into some kind of spiritual life that you do not truly want? Do you mean a religion?

Yeah, I suppose, I feel forced into meditation and Buddhism, and super levels of mindfulness that tend not to work for me, I prefer more logical activities in my life. And what works for me and what I want is more of a focus on healing from trauma, and working on codependency (which is why I'm making my spiritual life about that, and reading my 2 daily readers, the Language of Letting Go (my favorite book) and More Language of Letting Go, and now Codependent No More, all by Melody Beattie, who is my favorite author to be honest.

Lots of people tell me to meditate, or be mindful more, or pile on loving kindness meditations and such, and it never works for me, I do self love in a different way. Except I do sometimes throw a short meditation in, sometimes, when it works for me. I like creating little prayers that I use very casually, I find it fun and beneficial. Also, it's like, I've used so much forced gratitude to avoid pain, instead of using self compassion, that when I force gratitude it also overwhelms me, and causes me to resist it a lot. I can get very grateful, but it tends to happen naturally.

So when I keep hearing people to tell me to do these things, even Melody Beattie, it gets very exhausting to convince myself I am doing the right thing, even though I know I am for me.

Sure you do. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of mindfulness while acknowledging it can be useful.

So I'll simply ask this question logically (because that's how I roll):

What will you do with the rest of your life?

Yeah, well I want to get an entry level job, just to get financial security in my life, haven’t figured out what yet, but it needs to work for me. I want to write poems, fantasies, proses and books, in the long run, on various deep and fun topics.

I have various other interests like singing, cooking and guitar, but currently can’t see myself doing that seriously, when I’m at my best, I even make up comedy routines and have a great sense of humor. Also love gaming. I want to get my health in order, maybe go to shoot hoops, and go to the bowling alley, develop friendships, maybe someday get a girlfriend.

Right now improving my mental health, and functionality in daily life and agoraphobia is my priority. I think my writing could help people or enrich their lives. I like to help animals and people, but I like to do most of it on the fly, not as some dedicated thing. Save for my family.

I don't think anyone can force their version of spirituality on another person. It's your choice. Someone may suggest it- because it's valuable to them - but your thoughts and feelings are your choice.

If you are wondering about the spirituality in the 12 step programs - that has been adapted to all belief systems and even atheists can benefit from the program. The term "God of our own understanding" is just that- how you choose. The idea behind this is not to force a certain spirituality but to realize what we can control and what we can't and to stop trying to control what we can't. For some people, that might be that God is in control and for others, it might be nature, or the laws of nature but each person has their own choice of how to do this.

If you throw a ball in the air- do you control how it falls to the ground? No, that's gravity. We don't control gravity. We also don't control how other people think or feel. Trying to control these things would not be effective.

I think your idea of an entry level job is a good one. People think of jobs as mainly a means to earn money - which they are- but there are other benefits- the routine and the structure are some. Maybe there are ways you can incorporate your love of pets- work at a pet store, pet sitting.

Oh, a pet store would do me in, I'd be codependent in no time NotWendy! I already have enough trouble resisting my pets cuteness and not martyring myself to them. If I went there, I'd come home all pissy at my pets just for being similar. Maybe someday I'd have the fortitude for that, but I don't now. Yeah, I'm not going to be all pie in the sky about my job, but I just want it to fit into my mental health issues, so that it doesn't severely hurt me, for instance, customer service would be horrible for me. I tend to do better alone, or with logical tasks, but I need to feel like that have some meaning, and it'd be ideal if I can improve, since I love learning and figuring things out. Then I'd come home with emotional bandwidth for my pets. I can deal with people well, if I need to, but I don't want that to be the main focus of my job.

Yeah, well I get you can't control a lot of loss and change, and control peoples choices/thoughts, but I also think a lot of times we can control more than we think. I can choose to assert myself, to discuss, even to argue, to show conviction, to be determined. Conversely, I can choose to take a nap and not engage. Or deal with another person differently, or just focus on my own skill set and empower myself that way. There's a lot of options on dealing with things, that don't disempower me. But at the same time, once I am through this grief and have less anxiety, I probably will relax and feel more often, and at least get more time where I feel less of a need to empower and control.

I have many times, but I need to learn to moderate it somehow, since I tend to get so emotionally overwhelmed sometimes, that it really scares me and causes avoidant behaviors. I need emotional moderation and regulation. I think a lot of that is not forcing myself to be so perfect, I can back off and not always need to do the big thing, out of conscience, I can do the human thing and admit my limitations more, and dive into some distraction, something logical, or like, just take a break from the thing that's hard for me. I've forced so much intimacy, trying to be the bigger person and it'd kicked my butt, even with my dog who passed. I got way too wrapped up in his life and ended up hurting him over it.

Hi Narcs-
I’ve read quite a few of your posts, but haven’t gotten to know you yet.  I believe I can feel and have just a little sense of your struggle.  I hope I’m not being too presumptuous.  There are parts of me that may be a bit similar to you, tho’ I think I’m much older than you are.

I have a question… do you have beautiful things around you?  And I mean that in the purest sense of the phrase “beautiful things”.  In your living space, are there items you enjoy looking at?  Simple paintings or pieces of ceramics/pottery?  Colors and shapes that soothe you and give clarity of some type?

Is your living space, or areas in your living space free of clutter?

Is there a place outside where you can sit at a certain time of day and look at color - flowers, trees, whatever?  Just mind-clearing stuff?

You mentioned the guitar… do you actively play?  If so, acoustic?  How do you identify music to try?

I hope you don’t find these questions ridiculous.  There are specific reasons I ask you these questions.  I believe Creative minds and sensitive souls need certain things to find direction.

I’d love to read your thoughts.

Warmly,
Gems

Hey Gem for eyes,

I mean I put a starry nights painting in my room from Picasso, a Wall Calendar with space images on it, and Desiderata, and the serenity prayer on my wall, the later two I inherited from my mom. I keep my room cleanish, I prefer it cleaner, but we live in a tiny house and are poor. Also, I go out front and look at the trees and flowers sometimes. There are tons of mostly green trees and sometimes Eagles, Hawks, and other birds around this time of years.

Ha, I dunno, I tried to learn old rock and roll and alternative stuff on my electric guitar, and made some songs without lyrics, I go through phases with a lot of this stuff, have no interest in doing it currently. I learned it neurotically so I have to correct a lot of engrained errors I learned. I’m not too amazing at it tbh, guitar is really hard.

Like, when I hit emotions that are overwhelming and can’t cope, I write poems, it’s a coping skill to be honest. But a lot of my poems do come off as songish since I rhyme. Let me share a few, that I can stomach to share, since a lot of times they can be hard to go over to be honest.

Yeah, I'm feeling super vulnerable and can only stomach sharing the easiest one for me to share, that I wrote recently (about a year or two ago), it's about missing playing games with my friend, and my mom, the one who committed suicide. It was a phase of my grief process.

All those games we played
Some on our own, some with our closer kind
Sometimes we plotted well
Sometimes we chuckled and floated through

And in the graveyard of gamer hearts
There's a zip code of memories
Some which I saw, but all that I know
Because I feel it in my keyboard
In my mouse and controllers
In the empty seats of my game room
Where you both belong

I miss the way your queen took my king
As my pawns marched at her in anger
And the emotes on your friendly faces
Proved that we're not gamer strangers

And I think of how you stole and stabbed
With a true thiefs devotion
But this list of games that go unplayed
Is a hard to drink, lose-a-level potion

You've got a monopoly on my mind
And I keep landing on boardwalk
And I can't move on to another game
Until you've taken all my money

I've never found your secret level
I don't think I ever will
But I vow to carry both your gamer hearts
In my keyboard, mouse and controllers
And fill all my game room seats
In both of your honor

Honestly even this one touches me a lot, and then when I read it, I remember how my friends mom knit picked and could only give me a compliment on like 3/4ths of it, like some huge critic, when I was just trying to cope with grief about her son. The rest of them, I don't think she even acknowledged, let alone other people in my life who barely acknowledged them. This triggers me a lot and pisses me the hell off, because I feel so betrayed around this topic.

Anyways, the last part isn’t literal, it’s about letting the good times gaming inspire me to keep gaming, and not have it turn dark because it reminds me of dead people sometimes.

Also, I almost always asked questions and struggled to know if I should even share them. She did seem like she had some trouble with them, but I didn’t quite realize at the time that it was a big issue, they were hard for me to handle too, but still felt worth it and I thought we could connect on it.

Edit: Maybe I got a bit dumpy? I figured since we were talking about some of my creativity, I wanted to share some, slowly this time, so me and others have time to digest and respond, I know all of them didn’t turn out amazing, some can be more cliche than I’d have liked, but I always found unique ideas, have a good instinct with words and have a lot of passion in them. I find them embarrassing now, when before I felt very confident about them, because the people in my life wouldn’t even acknowledge them.

What was your thoughts on what a creative person needs gem for eyes?

I wasn't thinking direct customer service in a pet store but retail stores have a need for after hours work, like restocking the shelves and inventory. The store is more quiet and there's less people around and one could work independently. It's just an idea and it seems it doesn't work for you, but if you were thinking of an entry level job, it's one idea. Since pets wouldn't work, perhaps another store would be an option if you were thinking about something like that.

You mentioned you are starting with a new therapist so perhaps exploring what work situations might suit you best is on idea-- when you feel ready. One thing I have found when people expect "perfect" from themselves is that they are hard on themselves and others- but really, nobody is perfect. You have heard the term "progress, not perfection"- and that can be different for each person.

Lately, I have been more of a hard ass, but normally I tend to blame myself, and then let people off the hook. I've been working on codependency and my own issues for years. I just detached mostly by walking away, especially when things get hard, and my ability to assert was always directly affected by how I felt, so if I felt terrible, or was stressed, I'd get taken advantage of, because I tried to always do things in a thoughtful patient way (which wore me out eventually).

Also, during times of extreme stress, like when my friend killed himself and during COVID, my behavior got worse for sure. Or when I had a back injury and was in extreme pain.

I read in my book Codependent No More, that "It's totally understandable to be bitter and angry as hell in the face of putting up with the crap we've put up with". I've put up with SO much insanity, and lies from people, and abuse, that it's no wonder I am pissed. I've assumed the best in people so much, and let them off the hook so much, and assumed they were being honest, when I'd deeply inquire to them, that of course I'm pissed.

I'm well aware of my own issues, of being controlling, pushy, overly helping, but often times I'd do the exact opposite, and am patient, kind, easy going, and just keep my head down and journal. I just think having some standard for how you are treated in a relationship is important, and the bare minimums weren't even being met, and those were pretty low bare minimums.

I just feel like you're miss assessing things. I totally get how his mother could have trouble with stuff, but since she severely misrepresented who she was, just like my Dad, my neighbor, my counselor, the girl I met online. At the time, I was also supporting the crap out of her, not just in a pushy way, but in a patient and kind and genuine and thoughtful way, but because it's like she never seemed to acknowledge my feelings much, I felt desperate to share them with someone that would listen, and also I felt desperate to make something to be heard, and it was therapeutic to write poems in and of themselves. So if you're talking about the poems, I think I made a mistake, but it's not all my fault there...

Just because I have a lot of conviction and outrage sometimes, because I've deeply thought about things and value certain things, also does not mean I am necessarily hard on people, I'm just outspoken, I can be outspoken in both a positive way and in a way that is totally uncomfortable for people.

Lately though, I've been a hard ass, and kind of crazy about things, not denying that, but that's completely out of character, to take it to such an extreme, and due to insanely high stress.

Yeah, that might be a good idea for a job, but not really focused on that right now. Don't really need or want advice on that now.

Understood- I brought up the suggestion as you mentioned it as a goal in one of your posts but I wont bring that up now that you made that clear.

What do you feel you need from this board?  People post here for all kinds of reasons. Nobody here is a professional so the best we can do is share from our own perspective so one person’s  posts may or may not be helpful to everyone here- posters might find some more helpful than others.

I dunno, I feel lonely, I feel like my issues surrounding abuse/grief haven't been really heard and validated, and it's exhausting doing it myself all the time. I don't mind some advice, if it's about what the focus of my life is right now.

Right now, it's about writing periodically, since I want to keep that skill up. It's about working through abuse, trauma, confusion, connecting to people more, working on agoraphobia (delaying this a bit more, but I've made progress), improving my mental health. Sometimes it's hard to know what I'm looking for to be honest. I just want to not feel so alone in my situation more than anything. I want to connect to people as far as I can handle, which is hard, because I've developed pretty severe trust issues from experiences that happened in the last few years.

Yes, I'm going to find some peoples advice and thoughts more helpful than others. Okay good, just feel a lot of pressure about things to be honest, and I am doing things sequentially, so as to not overwhelm myself, since I tend to do that, so jumping to work ideas right now, isn't my focus.

Well, thanks to everyone for showing interest. I suppose here are my cards on what I want/am doing:

I need breaks from this, it's just, I don't know when to share, and when to back off, I take things personally more than usual, because my normal feelings get wrapped up in trauma feelings. I over share, and it kicks my ass, and I have to take big breaks, and feel overwhelmed. Also, I like people taking an interest in me it feels great, but also unusual and totally uncomfortable. I even neurotically check this place, but I also need to detach more, as it's too stressful to keep doing that.

I am super resistant to being pushed much right now, because I already push myself too hard, and I totally take getting my life together seriously, but until I am grounded, and reconnecting to my normal interests and adjusted more to my life, piling on lots of advice doesn't help. Although casual advice about some stuff is cool, just not with big life choices, big changes. I like making changes, but I feel like I've so rapidly changed that I need some ease and routine on that front, plus I find, during times of grief, going back to the basics is super important, instead of stressing yourself out more.

I am trying to do stuff like clean the house more, reconnect to my Dad, reconnect to people on here, find balance, get mental health services, exercise, cooking nice meals sometimes, doing my self care routine in a way that works for me, improving my concentration, reconnecting to hobbies, and am making progress on agoraphobia, also need to learn to pace myself again, keep alternating between extremes, argh, I prefer more moderation. I am struggling, I just am. This is why it's hard to look too positively forward, when I need to focus on looking positively towards my normal day to day stuff. I am taking steps to improve my financial situation, and improve my health, and do nice things for myself and my pets. I'm trying to be constructive, but I am out of sorts. It's hard.

I guess that's it.

Hey Narcs,

Thank you for you openness about your current challenges.

If we only work on our mindset and awareness, without concrete actions. We don't move.

If we only work on concrete actions, without awareness. We don't move.

Key is to address both in parallel, which is what you seem to be doing. It does take a lot of time, and it does seem an eternal struggle, but I know of no one here that would pressure you into anything, ever.

I think you already know you are pressuring yourself? This forum is a direct mirror into the user's own psyche, because we are only words on a screen. You can put the intention you want on any sentence here, you can imagine the tone, the body language to fit your views and needs. So, what we see between those lines, in the end, is what we choose to see. And.. Plot twist: life is the exact same.

I get that you are going through a lot with your agoraphobia; I get that you feel pain, and loneliness, and would like more validation... I get that you are tired of giving it to yourself. I will be honest here : I am very tired too at times, and I've had really bad moments, even in the best of my days.

In the end though : this is what being an adult is. This is tough love right here. My own husband doesn't validate me all the time. Because he loves me, he will also sometimes turn the table on me to make me the best version of myself I can be. It is his role to be a mirror. It's not that he doesn't get it. It's not a lack of love. It's not a lack of empathy. It's his way of helping me.

We don't all help the same. My step-mother is the other way around. She only provides empathy and openness. She doesn't seek to help nor provide guidance, she just connects emotionally and share the load. I can see how this would be helpful to you, I can see how this would help you right now... Alas, there is only so much words on a screen can do. The best I can do from where I am is let you know you have all the strength within you to push through those harder times.

 :hug:

Thanks for saying that I have the strength Riv3rW0lf, sometimes I’ve been having my doubts lately. I mean, I want to do stuff for myself, I just sometimes don’t know what to do, it’s messy. I don’t really want people to rescue me, I just told my story too much when I wasn’t receptive to people acknowledging it, and also I dumped it so quick it drove people away. I just feel really misunderstood about it all or something and like people just think I’m the main issue, and not anyone else who has mistreated me recently. I feel sort of gaslit about it all. And like no one understands.

I'd like to make sure I understand you right. When you say you feel like you drove people away by sharing your story maybe too quickly, are you talking about people on this forum, or real life people?

I mean here, but it's not like I've completely driven people away, or they wouldn't be talking to me. I just mean, I got so heavy, so much, so quick, so intensely, that people have zero bandwidth for it anymore. I've burnt that bridge feels like. Maybe I need to work more of it out on my own, and with a counselor, or something. I really don't know, it seems like a mind warp, because although I was angry at people for doing things, I now see them as narcissistic abuse/codependency, and like, that adds a whole new layer, and it's shocking and hard to process.

I had some success today, I was feeling super low and stuff, and then I focused on that, instead of trying to fight projections, and deal with anger only, and I was in dumps, and it sucked, but I survived. I also got in touch with some of my own issues. Then, I did something I remembered, where, when you're done with that (I didn't get it all out, cause I didn't have it in me), but anyways, I wrote a list of things I like about myself, this is what I used to do when I had low self esteem.

Then later in the day, I journaled out some anger, and punched my pillow, like I used to! Oh, god I love punching my pillow and cussing at people about things, haha. Then I got tired and switched gears, and dealt with anxiety. It's messy, but bringing back these old coping strategies definitely allowed me to get through it all without being all insane about it.

Gonna spend the rest of my evening enjoying myself. Sorry if I am dumpy, just really wanted to share these successes, because I've been struggling a lot lately, and it feels like some progress.

What do you think drives your tendency to overshare? I'm curious, because i tend to do that.


Are you angry did obvious abusive behaviors, or do you feel resentful later if anyone does anything for you in general that initially seems helpful?

I actually am not ashamed of sharing so much, it’s admirable and honest, and can also remind others they can share too. I’ve worked years to get comfortable with that.

But lately the context is off, like I share in the middle of conversations. I guess I feel gaslit a lot by the people in my life, like my story isn’t believed, like I have to prove it to someone. Like if I don’t get another person to acknowledge it, that I have to be alone with it all, and sort through it all on my own logically and emotionally.

Also today I just shared a bit because I was happy that I made progress on working through some stuff.

Oh, I appreciate peoples help, but I also get irritated and feel untrusting, so I am wishy washy, and stand offish sometimes, my memory isn’t as clear always so it’s hard to remember who said what to me when, and gain some object constancy on some days lately.

But I think people here are friendly. I just need better outlets for this damned anger where I feel like people could relate to it.

I think I am more angry because of the betrayal and the intention and now that I realize the effect it’s had on me. No, I don’t resent peoples help, it’s not that. I feel so angry because I truly tried to learn, be kind and considerate and so many people were lying and since I am very honest and try to have good intentions, it just hurts so much, because I thought people just had dumb or bad moments or something but finding out some of this was plotted out enrages me. Also I was oblivious to how some of it affected me. I was played like a fiddle on some of it.

Expectations will do that. Expecting people to act a certain way  or say certain things instead of welcoming who they truly are and what they can actually offer will ultimately always lead to them failing to meet those expectations. People pick up on that too, on the reactivity, on the expectations, especially here.

I wouldn't say you burnt the bandwidth, more so that I have often absolutely no answer Our situations are so very different and it's hard for me to know and find the right words for you. Especially since I can be a "tough love" kinda gal too, and I can tell this might not be what you need right now.

My honest answer to your post, because I feel you seek honesty, is that ultimately, if we assume someone is a narcissist because they didn't provide us with the responses we were expecting, then it says much more about us than them.

And this is good, because ourselves is the only person we truly have power over.

To be fair, I was once like that too. (And still am at times!) I lived in expectations, particularly from my father. I held him to a standard he could never reach, and then blamed him for it. My mother would call him a narcissist. And I'd join her. We would bond, as victims of his narcissism. I'd keep my expectations up, he would keep failing, I remained the victim...

That changed when I realized my expectations were the actual problem. I was acting like a spoiled child, with my father but also in my love relationships. I'd give a lot, sure, but I'd keep expecting instead of accepting, and then I'd dumb my pain on them, calling them out for failing to meet MY expectations of them. I never left a chance to my father to just be who he is.

It's when I stopped asking that I finally saw what he could actually offer.

We all have limits. Having limits don't make someone narcissistic. Just human. I think part of you already knows that.

It's a perspective thing. Only children are actual victims. Adults have power to build, to move, to change things. When they don't, it's often excuses they made for themselves and started believing. This is my view. And it might rub you off a bit, but it remains what I experienced in my life : it all starts from us and taking actual responsibility for ourselves, emotionally too. Tough love again, right here. The kind of things my father kept telling me, over and over again.

It's a perspective thing. Looking at people for what they truly are helps, but to see that, we need to be willing to let go of all our expectations first.

I mean, I’ve changed my behavior with my Dad for instance, like mostly I just expect him to contribute and communicate and not blow us up financially. And give me space when I need it. He’s doing fine

Also let’s say with my counselor he’s paid to help and since he’s in a position of power and I carry the emotional risk, I have some expectation that he show extra care, at least deal with me or admit he can’t, but next time, I will leave the counselor earlier. That was my mistake. Still feel angry about it though.

I do think maybe I expect too much from the board and it sabotages me because it’s unrealistic, and because it causes me to feel over dependent, and disempowered. I’ll reflect on this a bit.

Hey, Riv3rW0lf, I mean, I think your post helped me, so thanks. I think the main thing that helped is that you reminded me to take responsibility for myself. I felt hopeless, and lost confidence. And then I got depressed, and I thought last night. Hell no, I don't want to give up on myself, I've relied on myself SO much, and I'm the one who I can rely on more than anyone else to be there for me. And I have, many times before, been there for myself, it's why I have so many coping skills and bits of wisdom, it's from trial and error and working through difficulty, I can do this again, even though on some days, I might be in the dumps and give up a little. Yesterday, I was depressed, and after resting, these thoughts came to me.

I mean, I don't particularly want to have this whole victim mentality, but I think it's important to be aware of all the abusive behaviors, that people can have. Including myself. It takes time to forgive and work through grief, and just taking responsibility for myself alone isn't what I need to heal, it's what causes me to learn, and that's nice and all, but emotional support sometimes, would improve the speed and ease at me recovering, and even if not that, people relating. But I do get how my situation is very different, and that's what I find most frustrating, is I don't know where to go to have people relate, it's too convoluted to find the right place.

I just get this impression from this side of the board, that people aren't really receptive to actual trauma about it. They're kind of so far ahead of me on where they are in their life with the abuse, that they can't relate, even if they can be kind.

Like, I get what you're saying about expectations, but I think it's important to have some standards, right? Like, if a counselor is manipulating me, and abandoning me, that's still crappy behavior. If my friends Mom is withholding a memorial video about him, that she said she'd give me, after withholding other stuff, that she said she'd give me, then that's a pretty low bar, right? I actually had very low expectations before, it's actually what got me in this mess, is being so damned understanding with everyone.

People don't see how I was even 3 years ago, when I was super patient and understanding the majority of the time, save for on my bad days, or during extreme situations, and even then, I tried hard to be patient and understanding. Patience and understanding doesn't get you through life, you also need a backbone and some standards, otherwise you're neglecting yourself. How did I manage this? My own experience at working through suffering, a crap ton of journaling, and self care strategies and just general wisdom, etc.

I am learning, I just don't talk about it much. Like yesterday, I let my Dad vent, and related, and listened, even though it was difficult, and I remembered something I forgot, that was good and we both cheered up, and that's awesome. I used to listen to people A LOT, and be kind A LOT. It's actually what burnt me out. But anyways, this time later that day, we got into an argument, because he wanted to avoid stuff, and he started giving me the silent treatment, and I just said I am not responding to the silent treatment. And I waited, and cooked my own dinner, and later said "Sorry you're having trouble with X, I just don't have energy to talk about it".

The main issue isn't that I am not/have not been learning how to change my behavior, it's that the healing, I am doing on my own. And I am good at that, and I DO need to rely on myself more for that. But it's also smart to try to seek support somewhere, and not with one freaking person, like just my next counselor. I just don't know where to go for that. Like I said in previous posts, my situation is convoluted, because honestly, I have been good natured and honest a lot (but not perfect at all), and it's caused me to get walked on, mostly out of naivety and over tolerance, and after I got walked on so much, of course I was bitter and controlling, because I've put up with so much crap, from varying degrees, from multiple people.

I actually value my anger a lot more than I think people here do, and that's fine. I find so much empowerment from my tenacious, independent nature. I get angry because I have a conscience, and because of that conscience, I get super opinionated, and contemplate things that seem important to me a lot, even when I was little I'd stand up for stuff that I believed in, way more than my peers. I don't want to be bitter though, or super self righteous, and I actually think most of the time I've done good at those things too, but maybe not recently.

Thanks for chatting, I actually tend to fall on the tough love spectrum too, at least I have in my family, because I like getting things done, not sitting around, feeling feelings that could be rectified with a little work. I've found your posts most helpful.

Hey Narcs,

There are a lot of information in your post and I'm not sure I can get to all of them in the time I have left for this forum today.

One thing that came to my mind is : it's okay to have standards for how you want to be treated. It's just impossible to keep people to it, and so you are right that anger can be a tool to protect ourselves when there are abusive behaviors from people around. Nothing wrong with that. I also value anger, actually, as long as it is correctly funneled (assertion vs aggression).

I think the part of taking responsibility for ourselves is that it frees us from the needs to have others validate us, if that makes sense? My father is not a narcissist, but he is extremely traumatised, and he has a very hard time with emotional discussions and showing empathy. It's just hard for him...he will talk about him all morning, as if he doesn't hear or see me...then I get a phone call from him later just because he wanted to tell me he is proud of me... He did see me, he did heard me, he just cannot be proud of me in person, if that makes sense. Because it's emotional.

It used to really hurt me, especially since before, the phone call would never come, because we weren't on the best term. Now I accept that he doesn't seem to hear me? When I see him, I mostly validate him too. But it's ok, because deep within, I know he is good, he is just hurt. He was beaten as a child, by his father, by his teachers, he got it very very hard. So ... He never could meet my standards of a good father, until I let go of them to let him give me what he could actually give.

Now I get a phone call once in a while, of a teary father telling me how proud he is, and how he loves our new relationship... Why am I sharing this... It's... My father is not abusive, never actively abusive. He still hurt though, because he is hurt. But... By taking responsibility for myself, by validating myself, I stopped needing validation from someone who couldn't give it to me... And now I can see what he can give, and it is often enough. It's a real gift. He still is emotionally immature, and egocentric, but by accepting those parts of him, I get to share loving moments now...

I am of course not saying this applies to your father by the way, but to other people, it might.

There are standards... And then there are impossible standards.

We often have this idea of what we need, connection, emotional support... but I do think, ultimately, we are always lonely. This discussion right here, even if I can't really relate to your situation, even if my words end up not helping : IS emotional connection, in the sense where it is me trying to help you feel less alone in a lonely world.

Everyone here, that comes to read posts and take the time to comment, even when they don't comment what we need or would have hoped to get, did it because they were ultimately reaching for connection.

This reach, this willingness to try to bridge the gap, to offer some sort of support and presence IS emotional support and love. And I think, evaluating the responses and focussing on the differences between your needs and what you got will only make you feel more alone. The focus should be on : "Look at that... This person took the time to answer this morning. They care."  Focus on the reach for connection, focus on the love. They might not care the way you would like them to care, but ultimately, what truly matters is they cared enough to answer in the first place...

Having standards is ok, but we also need to be flexible and accept that NO ONE has the actual answers to the infinity and chaos of life and relationships. We are all doing our best... Even the narcissists and the BPDs.

Yeah, I mean, I have felt glad and appreciative of people responding to me. I probably need to improve at expressing that, and pick better times to talk, so I can actually do that without getting cranky, but it's going to take time to get better at that. Sometimes I've felt like people are judging me a crapton and have duplicitous reasons for responding, not everyone, but sometimes, some people, I suppose, a lot of that is my own trust issues. When I get more clarity, I'll be able to discern when I truly believe that to be true, vs my own trust issues. I've just had a lot of getting burned and it takes time to see through that.
I am actually good at validating myself (lately though I've been worse), I think you know, it also is good to look for people who genuinely like you and validate you and care about you in a good way.

Thanks for responding, and giving me your thoughts.

Well... I haven't seen all the comments on all your posts. So I don't know, it is possible there were some judgments along the way. It is likely, actually, humans judge others, often to make themselves feel better about themselves.

I guess this is also what I mean though, by, choosing to see what you want to see.

When someone judges me now, I am confronted with a choice : carry the load of the judgment, or see their judgment for what it is i.e., a reflection of their own insecurities.

I can choose to react to it and let it affect me, I can start wearing the hat of their judgment that was actually never meant for me to carry, and resent them for it, because I mean... It is an ugly hat, right? Or, I can look at the hat they want me to wear, see where it actually comes from (their own issues), and maybe offer compassion and reassurance for them (if I feel like it), but mostly shrug it off and leave the conversation, leaving the hat there in the process.

I used to feel very anxious in public and group setting, and I now realize a lot of it was me noticing all the little things, the body language, and tone...then I'd wonder what they meant, I'd pinpoint what they thought about me based on what I didn't like about myself, and I'd figure that's all they saw. I'd see judgments and carry it with me, trying, constantly, to improve. I'd take, basically, all the freacking hats people offered me... Took me a while to realize I didn't have to do that.

Some people see me, judge me, then go about the rest of their day without thinking of me...while I would keep ruminating the fact I hadn't smiled on cue? That's just my traumatized brain torturing myself, based on a judgement that isn't truly about me to begin with.

Does that resonate with you a bit?

I mean, normally I actually shrug off the majority of people’s judgements and pretty much just try to be myself, and realize what you’re saying, and take very little personally. It’s why I have a lot of convoluted opinions about things, damned the social pressures. But lately like I said, all this baggage causes there to be more errors, because it’s hard to sift through everything and have clarity. Just having difficulty and can’t be at the top of my game now.

You know what they say... What is different from a regular person and the joker from Batman ? A very, very bad day.

I always have an underlying fear of falling down, of something terrible happening that would destroy what I've been building. And it's always a possibility.

We are all vulnerables. I seem to recall you've had some bad luck? We like to focus on our own power here, I do anyway, because focusing on what I don't have power over just give me anxiety... but truth is there is also life and luck. The situation you are in doesn't define you, but it sure as hell impacts you. I have to believe that someone working hard enough to get better and improve their situation, will get some help from life itself. But maybe there is a bit of magical thinking in there, I don't know. I need to believe there is more to it than luck, but sometimes maybe there isn't.

Just saying... You've had a couple rough years, went through some bad stuff, and your situation is not ideal right now... It's ok to lose our footing. We are human, we are never completely impermeable to others even at the best of our games, so when we are low...

I agree it’s bad luck and getting involved with the wrong people, and not healing from one thing before moving onto the next. Which is what I normally do, also I thought I was ready for more intimacy and tried sharing and connecting to help heal more, it all left me vulnerable. I do think I’ll recover.

So.. I'm curious.

Did you always have agoraphobia? Or did it develop in the last couple years? Do you know what led to it?

I just got it when I was a kid, I got jumped by 10 people and it terrified me, and then it got better, then worse, then better, then worse, etc. I was improving at it a lot, then COVID hit. I think some of it is abuse related and some of it is coping by me pulling back when things feel overwhelming.

I'm sorry. That's brutal.

I didn't develop a full blown agoraphobia but definitely lots of social anxiety that I have to work through.

It's weird. I started judo classes a couple months back, and I really like it. It really helped put me more at ease in the world. Except when it was time to have a beer with my judo partners. The more I like people, the more scared I get of letting them know me. Those are people I fight with, laugh with, get thrown by and throw. In a judo context, when we all have our judo gi, I can manage, there is a purpose, it makes it easier I guess. I mean, seriously, have you ever watched judo? We are quite literally hugging each other all the time, to choke the other, but still  :(

Then there was a pizza and beer night when the school closed for the summer and I was terrified. I didn't know what to wear, I didn't know how to act, I felt silly... I didn't have my judo gi to hide behind, if it makes sense? It took the persona away, and I didn't know who to be anymore. They are all friendly people, one of the nicest tribe I've had the pleasure to join, and it made me feel terrified. I was terrified they wouldn't like me as me, I felt terrified they would see through me, I felt terrified they'd reject me after seeing who I was.

I think, over time, I developped a strong capacity to be a cameleon, which can only be achieved on a superficial level. And so, that's where I stay with most people. I have no idea HOW to move a relationship from casual to friendship. No idea, at all. It's very awkward for me. I thought that was odd, but I think this is more regular than we think...

With Zacchira, we were once talking about how, biologically, we evolved to live in small tribes of about thirty individuals. Yet we go through life meeting millions. I think it can be overwhelming for the more sensitive souls, I think.

I keep telling myself I truly only need one or two persons I can fully trust. The rest is background noise. This is my way of dealing with my own limitations when it comes to developing a social life. I am a loner. And I don't think this is something I can actually change.

Just making conversation here; it's probably not really what you experience. Also trying to tell you you aren't the only one with trust issues, pulling back when things feel overwhelming.

Hey Riv3rW0lf,

Nice to hear from you. I can relate to the Judo thing, in some contexts I do have a persona, I find it useful, it feels like it's part of me, it feels genuine though. Like, I use it to have a sense of direction, so I can get a job done, it makes complete logical sense to me. I consider it one of my "modes". Like when I am working hard, I am in worker bee mode, it's fine, it's just a part of me that I am expressing in a more controlled and directed context. It allows me to function with people in effective ways.

I'm interested in martial arts, but I dunno if I'll ever do it in a dedicated way, still think defending myself is a priority though, so might learn a few tricks sometime, on top of trying to get more fit, since I think it helps you get in touch of your body, own your power, and helps you feel safer in the world, along with being fun and involved, and can even be expressive.

I suppose I am less comfortable just being myself, but I've done it many times, but I tend to do it more casually, like you do, because really throwing myself out there can be terrifying. I'm a very social person when I am in the right mood, considerate, friendly, thoughtful, but I also gravitate towards alone time and don't really want to be the life of the party, that's too much damned work to manage, I think as I've gotten older, I am more reserved and like to be more personal in small settings and with a few people, like you. I can totally see how a party could be uncomfortable, at this point it would be for me. But I really need to learn to have fun in at least some settings... I used to like basketball as a kid, and think that'd be a fun things to do casually, to get exercise and have fun, but kinda scary to me to go around a bunch of people with it.

On a side note, I had some success with feeling better last night, by breathing through my nose, journaling out tons of anger, and when I got too tired to do it anymore, doing a loving prayer to myself (non spiritual/god oriented to be honest), saying I hope I get what I found to be my priority. This allowed me to sleep, and feel better, as my breathing has been terrible and unable to calm down, due to a lot of negativity and trauma coming up. It's still weird dealing with this hallucination. I try not to focus on it, but it can be distracting sometimes, at least it's only one or two sounds and not some other insanity. I find that when I ground myself well or throw myself into things heavily, I don't notice it at all, so it could be worse.

Hope you're doing well today,
Thanks for the conversation.

Hi Narcs,

Thank you, yes I am doing well today.

Modes is a nice way to refer to it. I call those "parts"; I like "modes" too... I imagine now one specific part could have various modes as well...

I read on another thread you write a lot, and would like to work on short stories at some point? I used to write a lot too when I was younger, studied litterature, I wanted to be a writer. I used to write and compose songs too, I still play piano, but I stopped singing now. Am not sure when. And it's ok. I guess I replaced it all with sports... Am trying to learn to do cart wheels right now.  *)

Why am I saying this... Ah yes, I wanted to point out the sensitivity of your soul. I think some people can see more, go deeper, and when they do, it's not that it's not true, it's that it is very hard to juggle all those parts and modes and truths. I don't know if that will make sense to you?

You describe it well... How we have to express ourselves in a controlled mode to function with people... And for me, where two modes clash, I find it hard to regain footing, like judo mode vs socializing mode. It's like, I am all and none of those modes at the same time.. and I am too aware of it, of the fragmentation of my soul, I am too aware of myself and others, and it makes socializing very hard.

I don't think everyone sees the world this way and can understand this... A poetic view of the world, which can make life lonely... Maybe you know this poem from Beaudelaire? L'albatros.

Le poète est semblable aux princes des nuées
Qui hante la tempête, et se rit de l'archer
Exilé sur le sol au milieu des hués
Ses ailes de géant l'empêchent de marcher

(Here are various English translations as well as the complete original French version https://fleursdumal.org/poem/200)

I've had to cancel this mode of me over time to stay sane, and to feel less depressed... I've had to stop digging too deep into things.  It's easier to manage myself this way... I guess, like you, I have to keep busy, keep my mind from wandering too far. It takes a lot of discipline, and I sometimes wonder if our heightened awareness of things, and sensitivity, are what might be making it harder to be understood, to reach out and touch someone else, it's lonely... Like different languages, if you will...

So you see, you mentioned people on here maybe being too far out in their healing journey to understand your trauma... I think it might be language difference... And I also think it is possible and maybe easier to souls like us to learn to speak their language, than them learning to speak ours. It requires a lot of adaptation from us though... Which is hard when we are low.

And I am aware, many people reading this will think me condescending, but I don't care, I want to speak truly to you today... From one very fragmented sensitive soul to another.

What are those hallucinations you are writing about?

I am grateful you are feeling better today.

Hey, Riv3rw0lf, nice to hear from you, had a hell of a day and needed a break, just a lot of anxiety, and confidence issues, but I muddled through as messy as it was and got through. Totally enjoy talking to you, but I feel nervous about it I guess.

I try to keep balance by moderation, exercise, distractions,, and trying to ground myself and pace myself. It’s messy as hell when I am off balance a lot, but I normally it works really well, I need to be much more practical, it’s helped me in the past.

I think I do have a deep, sensitive side, but it has to be tempered or it drives me nuts. So I go through my phases with things, I get what that poem was saying, I need to be more simple if people need that. But not always I think. I try to work with people how they are, but it’s harder now, that I feel more off often.

You’ve been so tolerant and you reinstalled confidence into me when I was having a lot of doubt, I’ll try to remember.that you said that, so thanks a lot for both of those things.

It’s like I want to be passionate when I need to or when I am ready, but then, I want dispassion to stay sane, it’s why my home base is moderation and practicality. I think I need that so bad right now, might need to tone down my passions and bide my time more, until I am doing better, reminding myself that my passions aren’t going anywhere, I can return to them when the time is right, glad for the reminder.

I do feel like we have a lot in common, it’s nice to get that, as I am used to the opposite. I think what makes life lonely for me is my independent mindedness, and convictions. But I don’t regret those things, still, in this case they could get me into trouble, because I am higher needs than normal, normally depend on myself just fine.

Oh I just sometimes have a beeping or a faint sound of frogs in my head, started months ago, when I had an insane day with my Dad and there was frogs outside and I felt overwhelmed. I have a slight hope I can get it to eventually go away. But I try not to worry about it.

Oh, and I want to write books that could spread wisdom, it seems like the most practical way for me to help people, in a way that works for me, and I think I have a lot to offer, when I am doing better.

How was your day, what do you play on the piano, how long have you been playing?  I like to sing, but I mix it up, sometimes I get tired of a sweet song and ruin it by singing new lines, making jokes, keeps my soul from soaring too high.

Thanks for being sweet to me, I think I both need it and fear it.

Hey Narcs,

You are awfully honest. So I will allow myself to be honest with you: you aren't the only one with a strong "pull back" instinct when conversations get too close to "realness". When you didn't answer with your usual speed there, for a minute, I thought I had pushed too much and considered using the board a bit less for a while, I logged out, and realized this morning this was a silly reaction, just traumatized me acting up again.

I also have confidence issues, and I also have anxiety about how people will perceive what I share, what I say. It's just that I don't normally write about it, to keep the "healthy persona" in place. I found, over time, that people are often uncomfortable with straightforwardness and authenticity. I sometimes think it's because they don't experience it, but now I wonder if maybe it is just fear of exposing it.

I hear you about needing dispassion to stay sane. After literature, I went into a scientific field. Learned mathematics, developped my rational brain. Learning new languages affect how we think. Mathematic is a language. It actually worked in balancing myself out a bit more. Keep the artist in me in check for a while. I do feel less passionate about things... Which kinda makes the lows a bit less low somehow? All this to say : I really get you as well in your need to be more practical.

And yes, I also try to get by mostly by myself, and I can see how this is both a blessing and a curse. We can't always manage on our own... But we do live in a culture where it is very hard to connect, and connection is scary.

You know... I have NO IDEA how I'd survived being with my mother the way you have to stay with your father right now. I can understand the anxiety, the stress, the hallucinations... I spent two weeks with her two years ago, and only two weeks got me into a complete mess. I kept having nosebleeds because of the anxiety, I felt confused, scared, small... I didn't know down from up anymore. Being in constant contact with an abuser, especially an abusive parent, really wakes the traumatized child within us up, and it's hard to manage it all. I think you are doing great so far. Consider that your passions might not me the problem, more so the constant triggering back to an emotionally terrible place. You are doing great, all things considered, being able to ground you back the way you do it. I couldn't, ended up leaving her house like a thief and never saw her again...

I've been playing piano, on and off, all my life. I play a mix of the same songs mostly, my own compositions, some songs from Yann Tiersen (Le fabuleux destin d'Amelie Poulin), some songs from video games and movies I liked... Most have a bit of sadness and nostalgia in them.. this is just my base, my main emotion, the one I use piano to let out and not get stuck with. These days I am learning a song from Skyrim I really like: Secunda.

It also feels good to me to connect with someone at a less superficial level.

I've read somewhere else you played some video games too, or am I mistaken?

Hey, I will respond to you more when I have the bandwidth. I try to listen to Chet Baker when I am sad, The Wall is okay if I am up to that much deep stuff, or Norah Jones. I like lots of music, but the low key stuff keeps me more relaxed, so I gravitate towards it, so I’m partial to Jazz for that reason.

Maybe I will check out the Skyrim song, that’s funny, you know, I’ve been wanting to play a game, and I’ve chosen that to play, since I never beat it, it’s simple enough to do, and has enough customization to keep my mind occupied. Probably make a mage or some 2 handed build, I like melee, but it got repetitive last time, and I got bored, but maybe I need a bit of repetitive clicking right now. Also I love creating builds, I kinda of get obsessed with making them.

My favorite genres are RPGs and Walking Simulators, the latter since they are low key, emotional and relaxing. My favorites being What Became of Edith Finch, Firewatch and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, my favorite RPG growing up was Xenogears, for its story, and more recently Legend of Grimrock 2, for its puzzles and fun exploration and customization mechanics. What are your favorite games and genres?

Keeping it light to day, try not to take it personally if I’m flakey, you know I am going through a lot, and I don’t see myself just ghosting you without a good reason or explaining myself. I don’t like promises, too much pressure, but I’d find that highly unlikely.

Hey Narcs,

No worries. Just to clarify, I don't expect anything anymore. The thoughts I had about "pushing too much" and "wanting to pull back" are left overs from another time, if you will. I wanted to convey to you they still exist within me, and they always will, parts born from my history... but I pretty much have them all under control now. I work a lot on myself to accept I don't have control over others, only over myself. Mostly, when I share something now, I detach from it and don't expect anything from anyone, but am welcoming to whatever comes next. I guess, I wanted to share that : those anxious, more controlling parts never completely cease to exist, but they become manageable.

I have never played Legend of Grimrock, but I have to admit I am also a RPG kind of gal. My forever best RPG is Final Fantasy VII. I must have completed it at least three or four times, the history used to give me shivers... I just could relate to Cloud so very much. I haven't found another game yet that has such a deep story line and complex characters. But I've liked many others. My favorite series was, by far, Mass Effect (except for the fourth, damn EA destroying my perfect game over time...). Really enjoyed Dragon Age and Kingdom of Amalur as well... I could honestly go on and on about many RPGs, my life used to revolve around those games. Now I seldom have time to play video games anymore, but I still hold them dear... they pretty much saved my sanity when I was younger.

I did play Firewatch; haven't played the other two though. Skyrim was great for that : walking. Sometimes I would play, and would just... wander, not using the fast travel, just to enjoy the music and serenity of the travel.

As for music, I agree The Wall is kind of unavoidable. I like Nora Jones too, her album "Come away with me" is actually my "Christmas music" album, the one I always put on to decorate my Christmas tree (!). It just fits perfectly. I am more inclined toward folk music, with Ben Howard being one of favorite singers since I discovered him in 2020, watching The Walking Dead. I listened a bit to Chet Baker though, and I admit I do listen to that genre at times too, especially when I cook.

Again though, don't pressure yourself to answer me just because I said I "reacted". My "safe adult" part pretty much holds all those more crazy parts in line now  :(, so don't worry about me. Just hit me whenever you feel like chatting.

Hey Riv3rW0lf,

I hope you're okay, I have been wanting to talk to you, but my dog has an infection, and honestly, it's been stressful, and I tend to worry too much, even if I try not to, plus it's been some work. So I will get back to you when I feel a little better. I want to respond extensively, when I feel like I have the bandwidth.

Hope you have a good day

Hey Narcs,

I am sorry to hear about your dog. I hope he  gets better soon.

Wishing you well, talk to you soon.

Hey Riv3rw0lf,

Been wanting to talk to you, and a bit nervous about taking this break from you, even though I know that it’s healthy and normal to do that, because I don’t want this to detour our budding connection. I’ve enjoyed getting to know you and find it cool that we have a lot in common. I still think my consistency will be messy though.

My dog seems okay, but not in the clear yet, so still concerned. Yeah, it’s insanely hard having subconscious triggers within my own home, like if I go to the back room to smoke, I hear it more often, since that’s where it happened, plus there’s some with the BPD ex friend neighbor too. I think all things considered I’ve been insanely resilient and strong, from daily persistence, still too hard on myself, and it’s no cake walk. How does your mother act?

I loved Final Fantasy VII growing up, last time I replayed it, years ago, I too loved Cloud, and how deep and melancholy his story was. And when Aeris died it broke my heart, and when she did the life stream at the end, I must admit, it was enchanting and touched me. I also loved doing the cheesy w summon Knights of the Round on weapons and such. Did you play the remake?I Moogles are the greatest, so are Chocobos, so adorable, did you also play Final Fantasy IIi? That’s one of my favorites too. I’ve played that series since the NES. Haven’t played Mass Effect heavily, but it looks really good and I’d like to finish it sometime, same with Dragon Age Origins. I want to finish all these games that I didn’t finish because of trauma and stress, but dunno when I’ll have the time and energy. Mostly I just finish Fallout games and walking sims.

Yeah Come Away With Me is a great album! Glad you have a creative outlet, it really makes me feel like I can individualize myself to create and express, and find my uniqueness.

Yeah, maybe my passions aren’t always the issue, but I definitely need to find ways to moderate emotions, so as to stay sane.

Hope you have a great day. Let me know how you’ve been doing.

Hey Narcs,

Yes I have played FFIII as well, the original though. I haven't completed any of the remake. I would have really liked to play the remake of FFVII, but I now only have a PC for gaming, and between the children and my business, seldom have time to enjoy this hobby anymore. I'm also very conservative and I fear doing the remake, I fear they might have changed, unwillingly, the overall feel of the game. Remember when Cloud is sick? And Tifa looks for him everywhere, and they have to rebuild his memory together so he can find himself, and remember who he is. Just such a profound game, I fear the remake.

The other final fantasy I really enjoyed as a kid was the VI, I loved Terra so very much. I rooted for her and it broked my heart she never got Locke, who preferred Celes in the end... Terra was burdened by her immense power, but in the end, she embraced it and her responsibility toward the world. It was a beautiful character.

Sorry about your dog, I know how strongly we can need them. Still convinced my cat saved me when I was at my worst, just by being there and needing me to take care of her. I had some very bad thoughts back then, and she was pretty much all I had. I had friends, sure, but no real connection, it was all very superficial. She is still here, older. Now that I have children the needs changed though, the relationship changed. Sometimes I feel bad for her... But then, I realize she is never alone, there is so much life in our house... She is ok. I wonder if she remembers all the attention she used to get and miss it at times. Who knows what goes on in a cat's head...

Don't worry for taking breaks. Think about it this way : people used to correspond via letter mail, and the letters could take weeks to cross a continent or the sea, and they still had connection and continued conversation. So what is a couple days, truly? If anything taking a break can ensure you don't run out of conversation !

You absolutely can individuaze yourself and you will. You are already on your way.

As to how my mother acts... It depends which part of me you ask too. She is mainly unstable and go from completely exuberant to being kind and "compassionate" to victim mode to raging queen in the span of a couple of minutes. The raging queen always terrorized me, and she is always lurking in the background.

I've been well otherwise, very busy. I am managing the kids and the house by myself this summer, H had to leave for work. He might be able to come back on weekends, but we don't know when. It's a lot, but my children are great children, both very kind and helpful in nature. They are amazing to be around, even though conversation is somewhat limited with them. So I come here a bit more than usual to get some real adult conversations I guess.

I also have a ... Weird ... Neighbor. And the dynamic with her and another one is really strange, I have a hard time putting my finger on what is happening, but my spidey sense are tingling, so I am leaving it at a very superficial level, and even then, I'm not sure how safe this is for me. We have children the same age so I try to manage those as best I can. Yesterday though I met someone else that live a bit further from my house. It remains superficial talks, but she seems more real, and she also has children same age as mine, so might give me a nice change when the immediate neighbors get to much to handle for me.

You never really gave much info on the story with your neighbor. I remember she was abusive with her pets... I'm not sure what happened with you? If you ever feel like talking about it.

Talk to you soon, Narcs.

Hey Riv3rw0lf,

Yeah, I remember that part of the story in FF7, it’s sweet how she went with him, and I can relate to feeling lost. And by FF3, I meant VI, in America it was called three when I got it. I loved all the Espers, Terra was great, and I named Locke after myself since I related as a thief, since I shoplifted a lot as a kid.  

Oh, well I do think I’ve individualized a ton, but I suppose I will even more as time goes on, I just looked for support in all the wrong places. I’ve been independent minded my whole life, it’s isolated me, but made me stronger, sounds like you suffer the same blessing and curse.

Yeah, it’s hard to know what they think, I love my pets and give almost every day, I just wish my dad was more caring to them, he could be worse, but a lot falls on me with it all. I think their memories aren’t as clear, but maybe subconsciously he remembers, that’s my guess. If you still see him and love him, and you’re both happy, that’s the important thing, but I can see how you could miss that. My cat acts fickle, probably because my issues cause me to be less consistent with how I interact with him, but I love cuddling him in bed, playing string with him, picking grass outside to feed him or getting him a cardboard box and coaxing him in it, he loves those.

Yeah, I know it’s logical and even healthy to take breaks, I suppose I can get pretty severe abandonment anxiety, because of how my childhood went, and it’s the reason for some of my most regretful, codependent behavior, both towards people and pets, I try to keep it under control, and I normally do, but sometimes under high stress, or over investment in relationships, it’s become an issue, it’s why I try to be aware of my level of detachment.

Yeah beware of neighbors, especially overly friendly ones who don’t take no for an answer. Such a Mom, finding friends with kids, to get other kids for your kids to play with, I suppose, those are the people you can relate to about it best. Glad your kids are well behaved, wait until they’re teens, right? I was a terrible teen myself, but maybe you’ll manage it better than our parents did so it’ll be better. What all are you dealing with that feels hard, just not used to your husband being gone?

Oh, at one point she was a love interest, but I decided against it, since she was too crazy, so I pulled back, and tried to remain friends. She’d just bombard me a lot and use my pet anxieties to hurt me. I was friendly with her son at one point. She used him and the her pets to control me. And her grandaughter too. She’d put animals and grandchildren at risk, or use them to pander, punish, etc. Other than the dehumanizing bombarding, using kids and cats to hurt me, breaks my heart, since I am partial to both. More recently she got the mechanic in the back alley to threaten to kick my butt twice. Had to talk to him calm, and tell him my issue is with her not him, to smooth it over.

I screamed into a pillow today, loud, super cathartic, along with pacing around my Dad, and cussing, lol. Felt pretty good.

Take care Riv3rw0lf, hope to hear from you soon.

Hey Narcs,

Wow, she sounds fun to be around. Getting someone to threaten you, too? Seriously, it's horrible. I honestly can't even imagine how I could use my children and pets to hurt someone else... Like, literally, how does one come up with ideas to put vulnerables, precious beings in danger just to provoke reactions?


Although if I am honest with myself, my mother did plenty of that with us to hurt our father, she would "forget us" at school, change our school altogether to take us away... He was seeing a psychologist at the time and she told him to not react, that it would pass, that we'd be ok, she would never go as far as to actually hurt her own children, right?.. And enter the boyfriends and physical abuse. And dad would not allow me to talk about what was happening at our mother's house. I'm still convinced she did those things hoping it would get to him somehow, he would have to do something. He didn't tolerate the school changes, but he kept a hard boundary about communicating what was going on at mom. Many time I heard : "I don't want to hear about it Riverwolf, what goes on at your mother's house stay at your mother's house, here is here". Not quite sure the psychologist did us a solid on this one.

Anyway ! Sounds like you take really good care of your pets, they are living the life. That's great. Animals are easier to connect with. They are safe, we know what to expect.

I'm honestly not all that well today. I am managing the house and children, and I have my own business too. It's just a lot. Usually my H gives me time for me on weekends to train and do my yoga. Also every night, he cleans the kitchen, and he gives me a hour for yoga to center and relax myself. So I basically lost all my "me time". I try to still do it when they are in bed, but I've been crazy tired this week.

H is also my emotional rock... I am very calm and I tend to keep everything in, so when I burst... Well... I hate feeling like I am like my mother... Usually, when I am on the verge of bursting, H takes the load away, and he gives me space. He sees me going and will usually call me out. We basically both protect our children from one another. I do the same with him when he starts getting angry. I send him away to calm down... So our children know what we have limits, but they usually don't get the load of it.

I mean... Having children is crazy hard. It's amazing, but  I never had a good role model. I've been in therapy, it triggers a lot of things, but the psychologist I found was useless... He even forgot my name, after I had been with him for 6 months, and mixed my appointment time with someone else, so he sent me away. And when I called him out on it, because he was blaming me for showing up at the wrong time (showed him his email) he started playing victim... So, I quit therapy. I've been managing myself, I'm generally doing ok.

With H gone though... Well I had a moment yesterday, and H wasn't there to protect my children from me. I am not proud of me, at all. It was hell. My 4 years old ended up crying, saying she was bad and everything was always her fault, and it took this to snap out of it. I saw the damages and I hated myself. I had acted exactly like my BPD mother. Hated, hated myself at that moment. I said I was sorry, hugged her, didn't know how to repair. My daughter tried twice to get me to calm down by giving me stickers and I'd throw them in the garbage. I was completely out of myself. Not such a great mom...  And what led to it is just regular life.

She didn't want to come home because she had fun at her friend's house, but it was always 6pm, and diner wasn't cook. H isn't there to help me, and my son is only 2 so I can't just leave him with his big sister somewhere. I felt stuck and the neighbor has a four-wheeler for children, so they were in awe of it, refusing to come home. I asked nicely many times, and my daughter, in her anger, ended up hitting me. That was it. Raised my voice, DS started to have a melt down. They were both hungry and tired. I knew all that rationally. He cried all the way home while I had to carry him, he was debating, it's hard to carry a child who is having a tantrum. Other neighbors were looking at us, DD kept repeating I was a bad mother. And I just snapped.

I dumped all my adult emotions on my four years old... I never do that. I can usually escape before this happen. I tell her I need to calm down and will get back to her when I am calm. Last night I didn't. And I cried for two hours after that, and I am still crying this morning. And it's only just the beginning, so I have to find a way to make this work without hurting my children, this can never happen again. And of course, H is unreachable. They aren't allowed to have their cellphone, so I've been able to talk to him like.. a total of 30 minutes all week.

In the end when I put my daughter to bed, I gave her her kiss good night, and she stroke my hair and she said : "you know mommy, it was just an accident, we both hurt one another, but we still love each other, it's ok, we will do better next time." I know I told her those kind of things before...and I thought What four year old has the maturity to say that to her crying mother... I don't even know if that's good or bad anymore. I hate that she even had to do that. A four year old should never have to carry a parent. I lost my footing. Completely.

So... It's a mix of many things that make all this very hard. Being tired and sick doesn't help. And children, well... They are wonders to be around, but when your own mother traumatized you, it can be very triggering at time.

Anyway, I'm sorry. I guess this needed to come out somehow. I am in an emotional dump, but I can't do self-care, because well... I have too many things to do to keep the house running, and the children fed. I guess writing here was my self-care today.

I will be ok though, I always land on my feet somehow. And I will find my balance... Just a bit of trial and errors needed.

Hey..thanks Narcs. I actually really appreciate our real talks here...

I mean, I’m sorry you’re having such a rough time. I know kids are a ton of work, it’s one of the reasons why I don’t want any despite loving them. What business do you run? Crying for 2 hours, and having a tantrum on your kid, sounds like you’re just taking on too much. You need to be easier on yourself, you’re trying too hard to be everything, have mercy on yourself. I do the same. It’s why my self care routine in the morning (wake up at 3am) is prioritized even over more sleep, because that time to myself is essential, I can always nap later. My suggestion is to journal at the end of each day to vent out the frustrations of each day, or get that counselor, because without your hubby, you seem to not be coping well. I got manipulated and abandoned by my last counselor, while in crisis, and gotten screwed by them many times, but it’s still worth a shot, as some are good, worth shopping for. I also suggest you find time for the yoga, because I bet your life will fall more into place, if you find the time for that, there’s gotta be a way to fit that in. Let your child be sweet to you, you deserve the slack, how about teaching her about mercy?  I think you’re too scared of yourself, again, I do the same, I catastrophize having a bad moment, and treat myself like it’s pathological. You’re human, not your mom.

And by the way, children and cats aren’t completely innocent, they cause a lot of trouble sometimes, haha, doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to be cared for and protected. I do feel like they’re precious, but I guess my point is your kids sound like a handful and that’s not your fault always, kids can be mean as hell. I was when I was a kid sometimes… if you heard my stories.

Yes I am being a bit bossy here, but you can’t keep doing this to yourself. Hope you feel better.

The wait line is a minimum of 6 months to a year for a therapist here, I live in a very small town.

But know what? I installed the water table outside this morning and fitted in a 20minutes HIIT advanced workout, and I already feel much better.

As for the yoga, yes, I will fit it in when they are in bed, but I have been sick this week and my body needed the rest, have been going to bed at 8pm every nights. Yoga is not much fun without a functional breathing practice.

It will be a tough ride, but yeah I hear you. I do try to be everything, and I am very hard on myself, it's true. I guess... I've been this way so much I don't even see it anymore. And I'm actually much better than before. I used to be much more intense than this. Being a single mother is crazy, lol. Really crazy. Even if I wanted to fit in more me time, with 2 years old, it almost impossible.

Also my business is engineering. I've gotten used to the workload now. But again, being a single mom is something else. lol

And I do try to nap with my son when I can, but DD doesn't want to sleep anymore, so... Again, my schedule is fitted around their needs, they have to come first.

But yes, they can be crazy mean ! It's hard to deal with all this..they need to learn they can hurt people too, but you also don't want to shame or guiltrip them either, I mean... It's a tough balance I try to just be honest about it all, but without the emotional load and dumping and extra shaming my mother would do. But sometimes, it's just too much I guess.

I will balance myself out, don't worry. Just needed to vent.

This really hit home. Thank you deeply for this, I needed to read this.

Funny thing, I forgot about you being sick when I responded, and ended up catastrophizing that, and completely ignoring the fact that I told you to not be hard on yourself and to take care of yourself, and show yourself mercy. And I felt like such a douche. It's funny how we can pull out the one mistake and ignore all the good we do. I'm glad some of my words helped! Is it safe to do HIIT when sick? Yeah, I tend to push myself when sick or shutdown, it's hard to know how to pace myself when sick to deal with things and my illness, and not hurt myself, or not coddle myself too much. Yeah, I can see how breathing can be hard when sick, what type of illness do you have? I really think any sort of self care is important, even if it's not the normal self care type of thing, whatever it is, as long as it works for you, that's all that matters. But I totally get why it's hard to find the time for yourself, when you have a 2 year old, Motherhood sounds insanely hard. I'm grateful I'll never have to go through it, ha, all that pregnancy and birthing alone is enough to make my head spin. Do you work from home? Anyways, back to my routine. Terrible at taking my own advice, but nice talking to you! I'll catch up with you later, when I'm more grounded in my daily life.

Hey Riv3rW0lf,

Hope your day goes better than the last. I don't have a lot to give today, and have stuff I need to take care of, so I am going to go ahead and check out for the rest of the day, will most likely get back to you tomorrow. Yeah, my neighbor is pretty crazy, I'm glad I gave her a book on healing after loss, because her father died, and then told her we need to get along, and we seem to be keeping the peace. I ended up letting her boyfriend park his car in front of my fence, to help keep the peace, so that I could pet her cat, who I love. Sometimes I hate doing the big thing, since he parks his big jeep there, and it feels like I am being dominated, but I just laugh at myself, and the possibility that it is some power thing for both of them, whatever, as long as I can have more sanity, I can live with it.

I didn't mind you venting to me today, and I am very glad I helped you, I think I could occasionally support you like that, but on a consistent basis, can't really right now. I actually need to vent myself more to people, and hope that I can occasionally vent to you like that, on my hardest days, and you could just not respond until you have the bandwidth. I'm glad you've been letting me vent a little and I think we can both do that a bit, and keep things more moderate most of the time. No big deal about having a hard day! Just trying to make my capabilities and hopes clear. A lot of people think men don't need to vent, that we are somehow just stronger on that front, but I think we need it too, we just hardly ever get it. It's a mixed bag, as women probably get used to depending on it more, and men have it neglected more, so it's a messy situation.

I'd like to discuss some of the other stuff in the posts, but I think since you've been having a hard time and I kind of have stuff I need to focus on and have my difficulties too, I'll wait until you're ready.

Hope you're doing a lot better.

PS: Also, helping you, reminded me to have mercy on myself today, so it helped me too on that front too.

Hey Narcs, sorry my venting this morning kinda put you off a bit. I honestly wasn't planing on writing to you specifically about it, and pondered writing a whole post about it yesterday evening but ended up going to bed...

When I started answering you this morning, it all came out, and I figured I'd let it come out there, since it just needed out. While I was writing "to you", I was more writing "to me", as well. And especially, "to here"...You see, I am well aware this is a support group and a public thread too. and everyone here reads everything or almost... And I am thankful, because someone else picked up on it, opened a new thread, and found words I needed to hear...

Because indeed, I am well aware too that you are not a mother with a BPD mother, and it might be a bit hard to grasp what I am talking about, albeit you gave it a good try. Thank you for that. And so I am sorry if this made you feel powerless or like I was solely looking to get support from you specifically. I truly wasn't. I just needed to get it out. This had been weighing on me for a long time, and it's like the culmination point. Where I am finally ready to admit just how terrorized I am that my daughter might end up like my mother. It is what it is. It isn't about her. It is all about my very own fear. That maybe other mothers that have BPD mothers will understand. A fear I have to understand and take out of me so that I don't end up hurting the little girl and future woman I cherish the most on this whole planet. 

Again, I don't mind you venting. This is a support group and I do provide support, but sometimes, I am indeed in need as well.  

It was just a cold, but with the stress I guess I got hit a bit more than usual, and ended up with a bad cough and a blocked nose. A HIIT might extend it a few more days, but then the extra oxygen seems to also help at times. We will see. It did energize me, so it was good in the end.

Well, it was my choice to respond, and I got caught up into talking to you there, so it feels private even though it’s not. It’s not a worry, I’ve just dealt with a lot of  people who have bombarded me a lot and been one sided, from my Dad to exBPDgf, to the neighbor, so it’s a sensitivity of mine. But technically I’ve been impressed by the effort you put into my situation, so don’t sweat it. And I totally see that your anxiety is about that, and I can’t specifically relate like others in your more specific situation can.

Take your support, don’t really expect anything today, worked through a lot of anger and feel better and gonna wind down for the day. I did see that someone picked up on it, hope that helps. Good luck.

Edit: Yeah sorry if me bossing you around/missing that you’re sick maybe detoured you and encouraged you to do HIIT when you’re sick. I thought take care of yourself and don’t be hard on yourself are pretty low risk things to get bossy about. I am even a hard ass with myself about those two. P

Morning Narcs,

I wanted to take a couple minutes to answer you because I kinda feel you anxious here.

So first of all : it did feel more personal, and so this one is completely on me, I should have opened another thread instead of venting on this specific one. It kinda disrupted the discussion and it was a completely different subject.

Second : don't you worry, you don't have this kind of power  :( many people might have made you believed you did, but you don't. I did this HIIT because I wanted to, and I had already set my mind on this well before I had read your post. I've been training for 10 years now. I wouldn't recommend a newby to do a HIIT advanced workout when they are still "sick", but this is routine training for me, and often a breeze to get through. I am not sicker today, I can read my body quite well. I had taken two days off and I knew my body was ok to take it, and I'm well. Actually going for a run after this answer.

A lot of people will make mistake and blame people around that wanted to help, they will blame their advice, but I am not one of those people. I can take care of myself, and my decisions are mine and mine alone.

I mostly write here when I am in need of validation, ressources or compassion. Anything that doesn't meet that, I discard. Most people are well intentioned when they remind someone to do self care, and I accept that as is, but I focus on what I need in the answers I am provided with. For me : intentions are much more important than words.

It comes down to what I told you a few posts ago : it's a matter of perspective.

So don't worry about me, I am doing ok, I can take care of myself, I am a big girl *)

Enjoy your day, I hope you don't get another power ego trip to deal with from your neighbor. And indeed... It is just a jeep. But people are weird this way that they can use such subtile things to get in our head, then it's hard to tell if they wanted to, or if we overanalyze everything. I prefer the latter because at least, I have power over that. I see you do the same thing, so good for you : really it's just a jeep, shouldn't keep you from enjoying your day.

Take care today, talk to you soon

Hey Riv3rw0lf,

Well I am glad it worked out for you, I know being lazy when sick can cause the breath to get heavy, which feels terrible, so it makes sense to get some exercise to fight that a bit.

Yeah, I suppose my abandonment anxieties kick up a bit with this, since I’ve been isolated, and have enjoyed talking to you a lot, I know I should socialize with others more, to keep perspective, but I have limited bandwidth lately, so just gonna try to detach when I get like that and focus on self care. Because I don’t want to sabotage this by being too needy or having an overly fixing attitude.

Enjoy your run, I calmly asked the neighbor lady to have her bf move his car since it was garbage day, and thanked her boyfriend for fixing our fence, so we seem on good terms for now.

Been making progress on journaling finally, so that’s great, having a very methodical strategy about working through trauma seems to make it more manageable.

Hope you have a good day, probably gonna nap soon, got 3 hours of sleep.

This makes me think of Bessel van der Kolk's book where he recommends yoga as an evidence-based way to manage trauma. Maybe meditation is too much head time.  

I had such an engulfing family in some ways and suspect it has influenced how I feel about group think. I've taken meditation classes and gone to a handful of retreats and I'm just not a happy joiner. I don't mind being in the mix but I'm sensitive to control of any kind, even if it's to do something in "pure" way.

A while ago I decided to look into transcendental meditation and got a bit spooked by what felt like a sales pitch and then an intake form asking what drugs had I taken and what psychiatric issues did I have. No thanks!

But that led me to look up what set TM aside from other kinds of meditation and I learned that a lot of meditation practices lean toward controlling your thoughts. TM is more about recognizing them, and letting them do what they do. That might seem like a small distinction but for someone who was raised in a controlling, abusive environment, especially from a sibling who was hyper focused on my facial expressions and inner thoughts, it made a lot of difference.

Since TM is too nosy for me I tried 1GiantMind (an app) and it was probably the best mindfulness experience I've had (versus mindfulness-based stress reduction and some kind of hard-core meditation decades ago that was too rigid). 1GiantMind is based on the same mindfulness principles as TM but it's just ... an app. They try to get people to become teachers but that's just a swipe on the app to get rid of it and then boom you're saying the mantra in your head and letting your mind scurry around and whatnot.

I also think spiritual communities can be problematic. They have been for me, including an older dude trying to all but groom me when I was in my late teens. The book In Sheep's Clothing (about covert aggression) talks about the high rate of covert aggression in spiritual communities and that has certainly been true for me, although maybe it's no higher than other groups but stands out more given the context.

I could not be present, practice any kind of mindfulness including yoga and meditation, until I did EMDR therapy which was extremely challenging and uncomforable AND it worked. I was left in the crib all day as a baby and my mother had no capacity to make eye contact or any kind of emotional contact with her children. From my experiences, the ability to heal comes from the ability to be present. I believe EMDR was so painful and destabilizing to do in the beginning because I had never known what being present was, and was hit with the cumulation of a life time of ignored discomfort and pain.

Hey both of you, livenlearned and zachira I've tried EMDR from home and TM before, didn't help a ton, but stretching and breathing might help, dunno about full blown yoga, but the stretching has helped in the past, so thanks for the reminder of that. I have the weirdest issue lately where I am so much in my head, or so much in trauma, that I lose body tracking and feel disassociated from it when busy, until I come down, normally late in the evening I can get more into my body. I need to do it more. It's so odd, having this weird desynch between body and my perceptions/mind/actions sometimes. Sometimes I feel like I am floating around or something. It kinda blows, but I used to be really body aware and might be able to fix that more. Any tips on that would be appreciated.

EMDR needs to be done with a qualified therapist in person.

Yeah, I know, you’re right, I know that’s the right way to do it. I saw about it on TV years ago, might be useful eventually.