Can someone reassure me about detachment here?

[NarcsEverywhere]

Now, I've done spirituality in the past, and even recently, and it's normally not very good for me, as it overwhelms me and tends to cause things to change too rapidly and causes trauma to come up. Now I've worked hard on codependency, and gathered wisdom, from my own experiences, experiments, reflections, etc. But I just don't feel ready for a spiritual life, because of how it's affected me, even though, I value some kind words from it, especially for myself, in moderation.

Anyways, now that I am learning to detach from all these people who were abusive, and feel more isolated, and am trying to reconnect to the world. I feel really scared, that with my pets getting old, and not having many connections yet, that if they died, I'd like, be forced into some spiritual life, that I don't want, because I'd not have connections and be more detached or something.

I would like deeper friendships in the long run, and I like personal relationships, I even like attachment, when it's healthy, like with my animals for instance. I like investing a lot in a person or animal that feels important to me. I'm not looking to be some monk or something, even though when I am at my best, I can offer more kindness and wisdom.

I think someone linked a book on attachment recently to me. I know my sense of attachment is not always healthy, because of my own fears and intimacy issues, and then because the people I have connected to, weren't healthy themselves.

Any thoughts that could reassure me, that I have a choice in what I do with my life? I feel like I do have this choice to pursue spirituality or not, but it's like. I feel like somehow, it's forced upon me, and it scares me. I've dabbled in it in the last few years or so, and it's fine, if I do it very occasionally, like only when I want, but when I pile it on, to any significant degree, it hurts me a lot, and backfires.

[SinisterComplex]

So do things only if YOU want to do them. If you do not and people have a problem with it...tough S . Next, don't allow yourself to have a weight of obligation placed upon you. That would be false. This is your life and what you do with it is up to you including how you respond, etc. In essence, everything that is in your control focus on. Everything that is not in your control don't worry about because it either will happen or won't but you have no dog in that fight.

Also, it depends on what type of connections fulfill you and make you happy. Do you want deep intimate connections? Do you want intellectual connections? Do you want just surface connections? Etc.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[NarcsEverywhere]

Yeah, I guess I feel some guilt and obligation to do a spiritual life, even though I rarely want to, because I got told by a lot of people in Buddhist circles that I was supposed to do it, and supposed to give up my version of sexuality and sex (not something I believe) Don't normally listen to it, but it's under the radar. Also, lately because of the trauma, it can be hard to know what I want and don't want, and it's hard to discern that. And I can also be more impressionable, because of being estranged from myself and it's hard to dispel stupid stuff in my head. Another thing is, because of recent circumstances, when I pushed myself insanely hard, I had spiritual experiences, without even meditating... which felt super forced on me. (doubt that will happen now that I am less manic though, which I normally am not that hyperactive)

Another thing is, like, I've had a strong grief process for those close to me, that has been super therapeutic to me, it's very PERSONAL, when it was people close to me, and I get scared that the less I cling and fear loss, the more grief process will be diminished, and I won't even go through the 5 stages of grief anymore or something, because of higher levels of detachment (another probably false things that I heard from a person in Buddhism). I assume if you have people close to you, you will still feel this way, just work through it faster or easier or have more support because of more connections or something?

Good point, I haven't even thought about wanting intellectual connections, . I suppose I do need to think about the types of connections that I want sometime. I think, I feel in a vulnerable place, and it's hard to connect a lot. But eventually I might want a girlfriend, and when I heal more, I'd want at least a few close friends, who have some emotional intelligence, but also intellectual connections would be awesome, since I super logical often, and feel most comfortable in that mode.

Thanks SC

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hey Narcs,

I'm not sure I understand it right here, so sorry if this is of not help to you... I just... What do you mean by spirituality and spiritual life?

Because for me, spirituality is just a state of being, and has to do with one's awareness. It doesn't have to be linked with God or anything either... It's personal. It's how we make sense of things for ourselves. It can be feeling, a knowing, but it's deeply personal.

And so, I am not sure why you feel being isolated is what would pull you into some kind of spiritual life that you do not truly want? Do you mean a religion?

[NarcsEverywhere]

Yeah, I suppose, I feel forced into meditation and Buddhism, and super levels of mindfulness that tend not to work for me, I prefer more logical activities in my life. And what works for me and what I want is more of a focus on healing from trauma, and working on codependency (which is why I'm making my spiritual life about that, and reading my 2 daily readers, the Language of Letting Go (my favorite book) and More Language of Letting Go, and now Codependent No More, all by Melody Beattie, who is my favorite author to be honest.

Lots of people tell me to meditate, or be mindful more, or pile on loving kindness meditations and such, and it never works for me, I do self love in a different way. Except I do sometimes throw a short meditation in, sometimes, when it works for me. I like creating little prayers that I use very casually, I find it fun and beneficial. Also, it's like, I've used so much forced gratitude to avoid pain, instead of using self compassion, that when I force gratitude it also overwhelms me, and causes me to resist it a lot. I can get very grateful, but it tends to happen naturally.

So when I keep hearing people to tell me to do these things, even Melody Beattie, it gets very exhausting to convince myself I am doing the right thing, even though I know I am for me.

[Turkish]

Any thoughts that could reassure me, that I have a choice in what I do with my life? I feel like I do have this choice to pursue spirituality or not...

Sure you do. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of mindfulness while acknowledging it can be useful.

So I'll simply ask this question logically (because that's how I roll):

What will you do with the rest of your life?

[NarcsEverywhere]

Yeah, well I want to get an entry level job, just to get financial security in my life, haven’t figured out what yet, but it needs to work for me. I want to write poems, fantasies, proses and books, in the long run, on various deep and fun topics.

I have various other interests like singing, cooking and guitar, but currently can’t see myself doing that seriously, when I’m at my best, I even make up comedy routines and have a great sense of humor. Also love gaming. I want to get my health in order, maybe go to shoot hoops, and go to the bowling alley, develop friendships, maybe someday get a girlfriend.

Right now improving my mental health, and functionality in daily life and agoraphobia is my priority. I think my writing could help people or enrich their lives. I like to help animals and people, but I like to do most of it on the fly, not as some dedicated thing. Save for my family.

[Notwendy]

I don't think anyone can force their version of spirituality on another person. It's your choice. Someone may suggest it- because it's valuable to them - but your thoughts and feelings are your choice.

If you are wondering about the spirituality in the 12 step programs - that has been adapted to all belief systems and even atheists can benefit from the program. The term "God of our own understanding" is just that- how you choose. The idea behind this is not to force a certain spirituality but to realize what we can control and what we can't and to stop trying to control what we can't. For some people, that might be that God is in control and for others, it might be nature, or the laws of nature but each person has their own choice of how to do this.

If you throw a ball in the air- do you control how it falls to the ground? No, that's gravity. We don't control gravity. We also don't control how other people think or feel. Trying to control these things would not be effective.

I think your idea of an entry level job is a good one. People think of jobs as mainly a means to earn money - which they are- but there are other benefits- the routine and the structure are some. Maybe there are ways you can incorporate your love of pets- work at a pet store, pet sitting.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Oh, a pet store would do me in, I'd be codependent in no time NotWendy! I already have enough trouble resisting my pets cuteness and not martyring myself to them. If I went there, I'd come home all pissy at my pets just for being similar. Maybe someday I'd have the fortitude for that, but I don't now. Yeah, I'm not going to be all pie in the sky about my job, but I just want it to fit into my mental health issues, so that it doesn't severely hurt me, for instance, customer service would be horrible for me. I tend to do better alone, or with logical tasks, but I need to feel like that have some meaning, and it'd be ideal if I can improve, since I love learning and figuring things out. Then I'd come home with emotional bandwidth for my pets. I can deal with people well, if I need to, but I don't want that to be the main focus of my job.

Yeah, well I get you can't control a lot of loss and change, and control peoples choices/thoughts, but I also think a lot of times we can control more than we think. I can choose to assert myself, to discuss, even to argue, to show conviction, to be determined. Conversely, I can choose to take a nap and not engage. Or deal with another person differently, or just focus on my own skill set and empower myself that way. There's a lot of options on dealing with things, that don't disempower me. But at the same time, once I am through this grief and have less anxiety, I probably will relax and feel more often, and at least get more time where I feel less of a need to empower and control.

I have many times, but I need to learn to moderate it somehow, since I tend to get so emotionally overwhelmed sometimes, that it really scares me and causes avoidant behaviors. I need emotional moderation and regulation. I think a lot of that is not forcing myself to be so perfect, I can back off and not always need to do the big thing, out of conscience, I can do the human thing and admit my limitations more, and dive into some distraction, something logical, or like, just take a break from the thing that's hard for me. I've forced so much intimacy, trying to be the bigger person and it'd kicked my butt, even with my dog who passed. I got way too wrapped up in his life and ended up hurting him over it.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Narcs-
I’ve read quite a few of your posts, but haven’t gotten to know you yet.  I believe I can feel and have just a little sense of your struggle.  I hope I’m not being too presumptuous.  There are parts of me that may be a bit similar to you, tho’ I think I’m much older than you are.

I have a question… do you have beautiful things around you?  And I mean that in the purest sense of the phrase “beautiful things”.  In your living space, are there items you enjoy looking at?  Simple paintings or pieces of ceramics/pottery?  Colors and shapes that soothe you and give clarity of some type?

Is your living space, or areas in your living space free of clutter?

Is there a place outside where you can sit at a certain time of day and look at color - flowers, trees, whatever?  Just mind-clearing stuff?

You mentioned the guitar… do you actively play?  If so, acoustic?  How do you identify music to try?

I hope you don’t find these questions ridiculous.  There are specific reasons I ask you these questions.  I believe Creative minds and sensitive souls need certain things to find direction.

I’d love to read your thoughts.

Warmly,
Gems

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Gem for eyes,

I mean I put a starry nights painting in my room from Picasso, a Wall Calendar with space images on it, and Desiderata, and the serenity prayer on my wall, the later two I inherited from my mom. I keep my room cleanish, I prefer it cleaner, but we live in a tiny house and are poor. Also, I go out front and look at the trees and flowers sometimes. There are tons of mostly green trees and sometimes Eagles, Hawks, and other birds around this time of years.

Ha, I dunno, I tried to learn old rock and roll and alternative stuff on my electric guitar, and made some songs without lyrics, I go through phases with a lot of this stuff, have no interest in doing it currently. I learned it neurotically so I have to correct a lot of engrained errors I learned. I’m not too amazing at it tbh, guitar is really hard.

Like, when I hit emotions that are overwhelming and can’t cope, I write poems, it’s a coping skill to be honest. But a lot of my poems do come off as songish since I rhyme. Let me share a few, that I can stomach to share, since a lot of times they can be hard to go over to be honest.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Yeah, I'm feeling super vulnerable and can only stomach sharing the easiest one for me to share, that I wrote recently (about a year or two ago), it's about missing playing games with my friend, and my mom, the one who committed suicide. It was a phase of my grief process.

All those games we played
Some on our own, some with our closer kind
Sometimes we plotted well
Sometimes we chuckled and floated through

And in the graveyard of gamer hearts
There's a zip code of memories
Some which I saw, but all that I know
Because I feel it in my keyboard
In my mouse and controllers
In the empty seats of my game room
Where you both belong

I miss the way your queen took my king
As my pawns marched at her in anger
And the emotes on your friendly faces
Proved that we're not gamer strangers

And I think of how you stole and stabbed
With a true thiefs devotion
But this list of games that go unplayed
Is a hard to drink, lose-a-level potion

You've got a monopoly on my mind
And I keep landing on boardwalk
And I can't move on to another game
Until you've taken all my money

I've never found your secret level
I don't think I ever will
But I vow to carry both your gamer hearts
In my keyboard, mouse and controllers
And fill all my game room seats
In both of your honor

Honestly even this one touches me a lot, and then when I read it, I remember how my friends mom knit picked and could only give me a compliment on like 3/4ths of it, like some huge critic, when I was just trying to cope with grief about her son. The rest of them, I don't think she even acknowledged, let alone other people in my life who barely acknowledged them. This triggers me a lot and pisses me the hell off, because I feel so betrayed around this topic.

Anyways, the last part isn’t literal, it’s about letting the good times gaming inspire me to keep gaming, and not have it turn dark because it reminds me of dead people sometimes.

Also, I almost always asked questions and struggled to know if I should even share them. She did seem like she had some trouble with them, but I didn’t quite realize at the time that it was a big issue, they were hard for me to handle too, but still felt worth it and I thought we could connect on it.

Edit: Maybe I got a bit dumpy? I figured since we were talking about some of my creativity, I wanted to share some, slowly this time, so me and others have time to digest and respond, I know all of them didn’t turn out amazing, some can be more cliche than I’d have liked, but I always found unique ideas, have a good instinct with words and have a lot of passion in them. I find them embarrassing now, when before I felt very confident about them, because the people in my life wouldn’t even acknowledge them.

What was your thoughts on what a creative person needs gem for eyes?

[Notwendy]

I wasn't thinking direct customer service in a pet store but retail stores have a need for after hours work, like restocking the shelves and inventory. The store is more quiet and there's less people around and one could work independently. It's just an idea and it seems it doesn't work for you, but if you were thinking of an entry level job, it's one idea. Since pets wouldn't work, perhaps another store would be an option if you were thinking about something like that.

You mentioned you are starting with a new therapist so perhaps exploring what work situations might suit you best is on idea-- when you feel ready. One thing I have found when people expect "perfect" from themselves is that they are hard on themselves and others- but really, nobody is perfect. You have heard the term "progress, not perfection"- and that can be different for each person.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Lately, I have been more of a hard ass, but normally I tend to blame myself, and then let people off the hook. I've been working on codependency and my own issues for years. I just detached mostly by walking away, especially when things get hard, and my ability to assert was always directly affected by how I felt, so if I felt terrible, or was stressed, I'd get taken advantage of, because I tried to always do things in a thoughtful patient way (which wore me out eventually).

Also, during times of extreme stress, like when my friend killed himself and during COVID, my behavior got worse for sure. Or when I had a back injury and was in extreme pain.

I read in my book Codependent No More, that "It's totally understandable to be bitter and angry as hell in the face of putting up with the crap we've put up with". I've put up with SO much insanity, and lies from people, and abuse, that it's no wonder I am pissed. I've assumed the best in people so much, and let them off the hook so much, and assumed they were being honest, when I'd deeply inquire to them, that of course I'm pissed.

I'm well aware of my own issues, of being controlling, pushy, overly helping, but often times I'd do the exact opposite, and am patient, kind, easy going, and just keep my head down and journal. I just think having some standard for how you are treated in a relationship is important, and the bare minimums weren't even being met, and those were pretty low bare minimums.

I just feel like you're miss assessing things. I totally get how his mother could have trouble with stuff, but since she severely misrepresented who she was, just like my Dad, my neighbor, my counselor, the girl I met online. At the time, I was also supporting the crap out of her, not just in a pushy way, but in a patient and kind and genuine and thoughtful way, but because it's like she never seemed to acknowledge my feelings much, I felt desperate to share them with someone that would listen, and also I felt desperate to make something to be heard, and it was therapeutic to write poems in and of themselves. So if you're talking about the poems, I think I made a mistake, but it's not all my fault there...

Just because I have a lot of conviction and outrage sometimes, because I've deeply thought about things and value certain things, also does not mean I am necessarily hard on people, I'm just outspoken, I can be outspoken in both a positive way and in a way that is totally uncomfortable for people.

Lately though, I've been a hard ass, and kind of crazy about things, not denying that, but that's completely out of character, to take it to such an extreme, and due to insanely high stress.

Yeah, that might be a good idea for a job, but not really focused on that right now. Don't really need or want advice on that now.

[Notwendy]

Understood- I brought up the suggestion as you mentioned it as a goal in one of your posts but I wont bring that up now that you made that clear.

What do you feel you need from this board?  People post here for all kinds of reasons. Nobody here is a professional so the best we can do is share from our own perspective so one person’s  posts may or may not be helpful to everyone here- posters might find some more helpful than others.

[NarcsEverywhere]

I dunno, I feel lonely, I feel like my issues surrounding abuse/grief haven't been really heard and validated, and it's exhausting doing it myself all the time. I don't mind some advice, if it's about what the focus of my life is right now.

Right now, it's about writing periodically, since I want to keep that skill up. It's about working through abuse, trauma, confusion, connecting to people more, working on agoraphobia (delaying this a bit more, but I've made progress), improving my mental health. Sometimes it's hard to know what I'm looking for to be honest. I just want to not feel so alone in my situation more than anything. I want to connect to people as far as I can handle, which is hard, because I've developed pretty severe trust issues from experiences that happened in the last few years.

Yes, I'm going to find some peoples advice and thoughts more helpful than others. Okay good, just feel a lot of pressure about things to be honest, and I am doing things sequentially, so as to not overwhelm myself, since I tend to do that, so jumping to work ideas right now, isn't my focus.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Well, thanks to everyone for showing interest. I suppose here are my cards on what I want/am doing:

I need breaks from this, it's just, I don't know when to share, and when to back off, I take things personally more than usual, because my normal feelings get wrapped up in trauma feelings. I over share, and it kicks my ass, and I have to take big breaks, and feel overwhelmed. Also, I like people taking an interest in me it feels great, but also unusual and totally uncomfortable. I even neurotically check this place, but I also need to detach more, as it's too stressful to keep doing that.

I am super resistant to being pushed much right now, because I already push myself too hard, and I totally take getting my life together seriously, but until I am grounded, and reconnecting to my normal interests and adjusted more to my life, piling on lots of advice doesn't help. Although casual advice about some stuff is cool, just not with big life choices, big changes. I like making changes, but I feel like I've so rapidly changed that I need some ease and routine on that front, plus I find, during times of grief, going back to the basics is super important, instead of stressing yourself out more.

I am trying to do stuff like clean the house more, reconnect to my Dad, reconnect to people on here, find balance, get mental health services, exercise, cooking nice meals sometimes, doing my self care routine in a way that works for me, improving my concentration, reconnecting to hobbies, and am making progress on agoraphobia, also need to learn to pace myself again, keep alternating between extremes, argh, I prefer more moderation. I am struggling, I just am. This is why it's hard to look too positively forward, when I need to focus on looking positively towards my normal day to day stuff. I am taking steps to improve my financial situation, and improve my health, and do nice things for myself and my pets. I'm trying to be constructive, but I am out of sorts. It's hard.

I guess that's it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hey Narcs,

Thank you for you openness about your current challenges.

If we only work on our mindset and awareness, without concrete actions. We don't move.

If we only work on concrete actions, without awareness. We don't move.

Key is to address both in parallel, which is what you seem to be doing. It does take a lot of time, and it does seem an eternal struggle, but I know of no one here that would pressure you into anything, ever.

I think you already know you are pressuring yourself? This forum is a direct mirror into the user's own psyche, because we are only words on a screen. You can put the intention you want on any sentence here, you can imagine the tone, the body language to fit your views and needs. So, what we see between those lines, in the end, is what we choose to see. And.. Plot twist: life is the exact same.

I get that you are going through a lot with your agoraphobia; I get that you feel pain, and loneliness, and would like more validation... I get that you are tired of giving it to yourself. I will be honest here : I am very tired too at times, and I've had really bad moments, even in the best of my days.

In the end though : this is what being an adult is. This is tough love right here. My own husband doesn't validate me all the time. Because he loves me, he will also sometimes turn the table on me to make me the best version of myself I can be. It is his role to be a mirror. It's not that he doesn't get it. It's not a lack of love. It's not a lack of empathy. It's his way of helping me.

We don't all help the same. My step-mother is the other way around. She only provides empathy and openness. She doesn't seek to help nor provide guidance, she just connects emotionally and share the load. I can see how this would be helpful to you, I can see how this would help you right now... Alas, there is only so much words on a screen can do. The best I can do from where I am is let you know you have all the strength within you to push through those harder times.

 

[NarcsEverywhere]

Thanks for saying that I have the strength Riv3rW0lf, sometimes I’ve been having my doubts lately. I mean, I want to do stuff for myself, I just sometimes don’t know what to do, it’s messy. I don’t really want people to rescue me, I just told my story too much when I wasn’t receptive to people acknowledging it, and also I dumped it so quick it drove people away. I just feel really misunderstood about it all or something and like people just think I’m the main issue, and not anyone else who has mistreated me recently. I feel sort of gaslit about it all. And like no one understands.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Thanks for saying that I have the strength Riv3rW0lf, sometimes I’ve been having my doubts lately. I mean, I want to do stuff for myself, I just sometimes don’t know what to do, it’s messy. I don’t really want people to rescue me, I just told my story too much when I wasn’t receptive to people acknowledging it, and also I dumped it so quick it drove people away. I just feel really misunderstood about it all or something and like people just think I’m the main issue, and not anyone else who has mistreated me recently. I feel sort of gaslit about it all. And like no one understands.

I'd like to make sure I understand you right. When you say you feel like you drove people away by sharing your story maybe too quickly, are you talking about people on this forum, or real life people?

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean here, but it's not like I've completely driven people away, or they wouldn't be talking to me. I just mean, I got so heavy, so much, so quick, so intensely, that people have zero bandwidth for it anymore. I've burnt that bridge feels like. Maybe I need to work more of it out on my own, and with a counselor, or something. I really don't know, it seems like a mind warp, because although I was angry at people for doing things, I now see them as narcissistic abuse/codependency, and like, that adds a whole new layer, and it's shocking and hard to process.

I had some success today, I was feeling super low and stuff, and then I focused on that, instead of trying to fight projections, and deal with anger only, and I was in dumps, and it sucked, but I survived. I also got in touch with some of my own issues. Then, I did something I remembered, where, when you're done with that (I didn't get it all out, cause I didn't have it in me), but anyways, I wrote a list of things I like about myself, this is what I used to do when I had low self esteem.

Then later in the day, I journaled out some anger, and punched my pillow, like I used to! Oh, god I love punching my pillow and cussing at people about things, haha. Then I got tired and switched gears, and dealt with anxiety. It's messy, but bringing back these old coping strategies definitely allowed me to get through it all without being all insane about it.

Gonna spend the rest of my evening enjoying myself. Sorry if I am dumpy, just really wanted to share these successes, because I've been struggling a lot lately, and it feels like some progress.

[Turkish]

I mean here, but it's not like I've completely driven people away, or they wouldn't be talking to me. I just mean, I got so heavy, so much, so quick, so intensely, that people have zero bandwidth for it anymore. I've burnt that bridge feels like. Maybe I need to work more of it out on my own, and with a counselor, or something.

What do you think drives your tendency to overshare? I'm curious, because i tend to do that.

I really don't know, it seems like a mind warp, because although I was angry at people for doing things, I now see them as narcissistic abuse/codependency, and like, that adds a whole new layer, and it's shocking and hard to process.

Are you angry did obvious abusive behaviors, or do you feel resentful later if anyone does anything for you in general that initially seems helpful?

[NarcsEverywhere]

I actually am not ashamed of sharing so much, it’s admirable and honest, and can also remind others they can share too. I’ve worked years to get comfortable with that.

But lately the context is off, like I share in the middle of conversations. I guess I feel gaslit a lot by the people in my life, like my story isn’t believed, like I have to prove it to someone. Like if I don’t get another person to acknowledge it, that I have to be alone with it all, and sort through it all on my own logically and emotionally.

Also today I just shared a bit because I was happy that I made progress on working through some stuff.

Oh, I appreciate peoples help, but I also get irritated and feel untrusting, so I am wishy washy, and stand offish sometimes, my memory isn’t as clear always so it’s hard to remember who said what to me when, and gain some object constancy on some days lately.

But I think people here are friendly. I just need better outlets for this damned anger where I feel like people could relate to it.

I think I am more angry because of the betrayal and the intention and now that I realize the effect it’s had on me. No, I don’t resent peoples help, it’s not that. I feel so angry because I truly tried to learn, be kind and considerate and so many people were lying and since I am very honest and try to have good intentions, it just hurts so much, because I thought people just had dumb or bad moments or something but finding out some of this was plotted out enrages me. Also I was oblivious to how some of it affected me. I was played like a fiddle on some of it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I mean here, but it's not like I've completely driven people away, or they wouldn't be talking to me. I just mean, I got so heavy, so much, so quick, so intensely, that people have zero bandwidth for it anymore. I've burnt that bridge feels like. Maybe I need to work more of it out on my own, and with a counselor, or something. I really don't know, it seems like a mind warp, because although I was angry at people for doing things, I now see them as narcissistic abuse/codependency, and like, that adds a whole new layer, and it's shocking and hard to process.

Expectations will do that. Expecting people to act a certain way  or say certain things instead of welcoming who they truly are and what they can actually offer will ultimately always lead to them failing to meet those expectations. People pick up on that too, on the reactivity, on the expectations, especially here.

I wouldn't say you burnt the bandwidth, more so that I have often absolutely no answer Our situations are so very different and it's hard for me to know and find the right words for you. Especially since I can be a "tough love" kinda gal too, and I can tell this might not be what you need right now.

My honest answer to your post, because I feel you seek honesty, is that ultimately, if we assume someone is a narcissist because they didn't provide us with the responses we were expecting, then it says much more about us than them.

And this is good, because ourselves is the only person we truly have power over.

To be fair, I was once like that too. (And still am at times!) I lived in expectations, particularly from my father. I held him to a standard he could never reach, and then blamed him for it. My mother would call him a narcissist. And I'd join her. We would bond, as victims of his narcissism. I'd keep my expectations up, he would keep failing, I remained the victim...

That changed when I realized my expectations were the actual problem. I was acting like a spoiled child, with my father but also in my love relationships. I'd give a lot, sure, but I'd keep expecting instead of accepting, and then I'd dumb my pain on them, calling them out for failing to meet MY expectations of them. I never left a chance to my father to just be who he is.

It's when I stopped asking that I finally saw what he could actually offer.

We all have limits. Having limits don't make someone narcissistic. Just human. I think part of you already knows that.

It's a perspective thing. Only children are actual victims. Adults have power to build, to move, to change things. When they don't, it's often excuses they made for themselves and started believing. This is my view. And it might rub you off a bit, but it remains what I experienced in my life : it all starts from us and taking actual responsibility for ourselves, emotionally too. Tough love again, right here. The kind of things my father kept telling me, over and over again.

It's a perspective thing. Looking at people for what they truly are helps, but to see that, we need to be willing to let go of all our expectations first.

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean, I’ve changed my behavior with my Dad for instance, like mostly I just expect him to contribute and communicate and not blow us up financially. And give me space when I need it. He’s doing fine

Also let’s say with my counselor he’s paid to help and since he’s in a position of power and I carry the emotional risk, I have some expectation that he show extra care, at least deal with me or admit he can’t, but next time, I will leave the counselor earlier. That was my mistake. Still feel angry about it though.

I do think maybe I expect too much from the board and it sabotages me because it’s unrealistic, and because it causes me to feel over dependent, and disempowered. I’ll reflect on this a bit.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey, Riv3rW0lf, I mean, I think your post helped me, so thanks. I think the main thing that helped is that you reminded me to take responsibility for myself. I felt hopeless, and lost confidence. And then I got depressed, and I thought last night. Hell no, I don't want to give up on myself, I've relied on myself SO much, and I'm the one who I can rely on more than anyone else to be there for me. And I have, many times before, been there for myself, it's why I have so many coping skills and bits of wisdom, it's from trial and error and working through difficulty, I can do this again, even though on some days, I might be in the dumps and give up a little. Yesterday, I was depressed, and after resting, these thoughts came to me.

I mean, I don't particularly want to have this whole victim mentality, but I think it's important to be aware of all the abusive behaviors, that people can have. Including myself. It takes time to forgive and work through grief, and just taking responsibility for myself alone isn't what I need to heal, it's what causes me to learn, and that's nice and all, but emotional support sometimes, would improve the speed and ease at me recovering, and even if not that, people relating. But I do get how my situation is very different, and that's what I find most frustrating, is I don't know where to go to have people relate, it's too convoluted to find the right place.

I just get this impression from this side of the board, that people aren't really receptive to actual trauma about it. They're kind of so far ahead of me on where they are in their life with the abuse, that they can't relate, even if they can be kind.

Like, I get what you're saying about expectations, but I think it's important to have some standards, right? Like, if a counselor is manipulating me, and abandoning me, that's still crappy behavior. If my friends Mom is withholding a memorial video about him, that she said she'd give me, after withholding other stuff, that she said she'd give me, then that's a pretty low bar, right? I actually had very low expectations before, it's actually what got me in this mess, is being so damned understanding with everyone.

People don't see how I was even 3 years ago, when I was super patient and understanding the majority of the time, save for on my bad days, or during extreme situations, and even then, I tried hard to be patient and understanding. Patience and understanding doesn't get you through life, you also need a backbone and some standards, otherwise you're neglecting yourself. How did I manage this? My own experience at working through suffering, a crap ton of journaling, and self care strategies and just general wisdom, etc.

I am learning, I just don't talk about it much. Like yesterday, I let my Dad vent, and related, and listened, even though it was difficult, and I remembered something I forgot, that was good and we both cheered up, and that's awesome. I used to listen to people A LOT, and be kind A LOT. It's actually what burnt me out. But anyways, this time later that day, we got into an argument, because he wanted to avoid stuff, and he started giving me the silent treatment, and I just said I am not responding to the silent treatment. And I waited, and cooked my own dinner, and later said "Sorry you're having trouble with X, I just don't have energy to talk about it".

The main issue isn't that I am not/have not been learning how to change my behavior, it's that the healing, I am doing on my own. And I am good at that, and I DO need to rely on myself more for that. But it's also smart to try to seek support somewhere, and not with one freaking person, like just my next counselor. I just don't know where to go for that. Like I said in previous posts, my situation is convoluted, because honestly, I have been good natured and honest a lot (but not perfect at all), and it's caused me to get walked on, mostly out of naivety and over tolerance, and after I got walked on so much, of course I was bitter and controlling, because I've put up with so much crap, from varying degrees, from multiple people.

I actually value my anger a lot more than I think people here do, and that's fine. I find so much empowerment from my tenacious, independent nature. I get angry because I have a conscience, and because of that conscience, I get super opinionated, and contemplate things that seem important to me a lot, even when I was little I'd stand up for stuff that I believed in, way more than my peers. I don't want to be bitter though, or super self righteous, and I actually think most of the time I've done good at those things too, but maybe not recently.

Thanks for chatting, I actually tend to fall on the tough love spectrum too, at least I have in my family, because I like getting things done, not sitting around, feeling feelings that could be rectified with a little work. I've found your posts most helpful.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hey Narcs,

There are a lot of information in your post and I'm not sure I can get to all of them in the time I have left for this forum today.

One thing that came to my mind is : it's okay to have standards for how you want to be treated. It's just impossible to keep people to it, and so you are right that anger can be a tool to protect ourselves when there are abusive behaviors from people around. Nothing wrong with that. I also value anger, actually, as long as it is correctly funneled (assertion vs aggression).

I think the part of taking responsibility for ourselves is that it frees us from the needs to have others validate us, if that makes sense? My father is not a narcissist, but he is extremely traumatised, and he has a very hard time with emotional discussions and showing empathy. It's just hard for him...he will talk about him all morning, as if he doesn't hear or see me...then I get a phone call from him later just because he wanted to tell me he is proud of me... He did see me, he did heard me, he just cannot be proud of me in person, if that makes sense. Because it's emotional.

It used to really hurt me, especially since before, the phone call would never come, because we weren't on the best term. Now I accept that he doesn't seem to hear me? When I see him, I mostly validate him too. But it's ok, because deep within, I know he is good, he is just hurt. He was beaten as a child, by his father, by his teachers, he got it very very hard. So ... He never could meet my standards of a good father, until I let go of them to let him give me what he could actually give.

Now I get a phone call once in a while, of a teary father telling me how proud he is, and how he loves our new relationship... Why am I sharing this... It's... My father is not abusive, never actively abusive. He still hurt though, because he is hurt. But... By taking responsibility for myself, by validating myself, I stopped needing validation from someone who couldn't give it to me... And now I can see what he can give, and it is often enough. It's a real gift. He still is emotionally immature, and egocentric, but by accepting those parts of him, I get to share loving moments now...

I am of course not saying this applies to your father by the way, but to other people, it might.

There are standards... And then there are impossible standards.

We often have this idea of what we need, connection, emotional support... but I do think, ultimately, we are always lonely. This discussion right here, even if I can't really relate to your situation, even if my words end up not helping : IS emotional connection, in the sense where it is me trying to help you feel less alone in a lonely world.

Everyone here, that comes to read posts and take the time to comment, even when they don't comment what we need or would have hoped to get, did it because they were ultimately reaching for connection.

This reach, this willingness to try to bridge the gap, to offer some sort of support and presence IS emotional support and love. And I think, evaluating the responses and focussing on the differences between your needs and what you got will only make you feel more alone. The focus should be on : "Look at that... This person took the time to answer this morning. They care."  Focus on the reach for connection, focus on the love. They might not care the way you would like them to care, but ultimately, what truly matters is they cared enough to answer in the first place...

Having standards is ok, but we also need to be flexible and accept that NO ONE has the actual answers to the infinity and chaos of life and relationships. We are all doing our best... Even the narcissists and the BPDs.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Yeah, I mean, I have felt glad and appreciative of people responding to me. I probably need to improve at expressing that, and pick better times to talk, so I can actually do that without getting cranky, but it's going to take time to get better at that. Sometimes I've felt like people are judging me a crapton and have duplicitous reasons for responding, not everyone, but sometimes, some people, I suppose, a lot of that is my own trust issues. When I get more clarity, I'll be able to discern when I truly believe that to be true, vs my own trust issues. I've just had a lot of getting burned and it takes time to see through that.
I am actually good at validating myself (lately though I've been worse), I think you know, it also is good to look for people who genuinely like you and validate you and care about you in a good way.

Thanks for responding, and giving me your thoughts.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yeah, I mean, I have felt glad and appreciative of people responding to me. I probably need to improve at expressing that, and pick better times to talk, so I can actually do that without getting cranky, but it's going to take time to get better at that. Sometimes I've felt like people are judging me a crapton and have duplicitous reasons for responding, not everyone, but sometimes, some people, I suppose, a lot of that is my own trust issues. When I get more clarity, I'll be able to discern when I truly believe that to be true, vs my own trust issues. I've just had a lot of getting burned and it takes time to see through that.
I am actually good at validating myself (lately though I've been worse), I think you know, it also is good to look for people who genuinely like you and validate you and care about you in a good way.

Thanks for responding, and giving me your thoughts.

Well... I haven't seen all the comments on all your posts. So I don't know, it is possible there were some judgments along the way. It is likely, actually, humans judge others, often to make themselves feel better about themselves.

I guess this is also what I mean though, by, choosing to see what you want to see.

When someone judges me now, I am confronted with a choice : carry the load of the judgment, or see their judgment for what it is i.e., a reflection of their own insecurities.

I can choose to react to it and let it affect me, I can start wearing the hat of their judgment that was actually never meant for me to carry, and resent them for it, because I mean... It is an ugly hat, right? Or, I can look at the hat they want me to wear, see where it actually comes from (their own issues), and maybe offer compassion and reassurance for them (if I feel like it), but mostly shrug it off and leave the conversation, leaving the hat there in the process.

I used to feel very anxious in public and group setting, and I now realize a lot of it was me noticing all the little things, the body language, and tone...then I'd wonder what they meant, I'd pinpoint what they thought about me based on what I didn't like about myself, and I'd figure that's all they saw. I'd see judgments and carry it with me, trying, constantly, to improve. I'd take, basically, all the freacking hats people offered me... Took me a while to realize I didn't have to do that.

Some people see me, judge me, then go about the rest of their day without thinking of me...while I would keep ruminating the fact I hadn't smiled on cue? That's just my traumatized brain torturing myself, based on a judgement that isn't truly about me to begin with.

Does that resonate with you a bit?

[NarcsEverywhere]

I mean, normally I actually shrug off the majority of people’s judgements and pretty much just try to be myself, and realize what you’re saying, and take very little personally. It’s why I have a lot of convoluted opinions about things, damned the social pressures. But lately like I said, all this baggage causes there to be more errors, because it’s hard to sift through everything and have clarity. Just having difficulty and can’t be at the top of my game now.