BPDFamily.com

I would like to get your feedback on the function of the below described behaviour and try to understand what purpose this might play in self soothing and self regulation for my uBPDh.
Last night as we lay in bed, me browsing on my phone, him switching the channels. Suddenly he asks, seeming out of Blue “can I hurt you?”
Me: how do you want to hurt me (thinking he is joking or role playing)
Him: proceeds to pinch me, painfully with a full force on the thigh”
Me: startled, and wide eyed “why would you do such thing?”
Him: so I can make myself feel better
Me: we don’t touch each other like this

Now question: is it attention seeking, or is inflicting pain on me brings him to some kind of solace. He’s been all kind of dysregulated in the past year. Ever since his business, which is volatile, fluctuates daily, and brings all kind of obstacles, also daily, his BPD has been severe and dysfunctional. Feedback is much appreciated

This is too deep for me to comment on but sorry you have to endure this.

I know that pwBPD use others to regulate their feelings. It seems disturbing and potentially dangerous that your husband has this need to physically hurt you to regulate his inner world. I have never been hurt out of the blue - no "provocation" - there have been times when she has insisted on pulling my hair out or slapping me on the face in return for some transgression. She has also spoken about the painful death she hopes I will experience when she is feeling bad about me.

I hope you can get some useful comments.

I am sorry too.

sometimes he would inflict pain, hit me twice, on the upper arm. and he would find a way, if we were moving something, to have me get hurt, finger get smashed or something, too often for it to be an accident.  He also would blame me for things he did to himself: he was pulling a part off the underside of our car, he said he needed my help, and he wouldnt wait for me, so he just went ahead and pulled it off, (gas tank) said he hurt his shoulder, a few months later, i happened to be w him at his dr appt, and he told the doctor, because of me, he hurt his shoulder... .he ended up having surgery and would tell friends, i caused it.  The crazy thing is, also, when i met him, his shoulder was in a sling from getting it hurt moving a house full of furniture... .so he never would say what really happened... .oh well.  Its ridiculous.

Last night was a challenge- he was spinning out of control, it felt like a church bell that was rung, the rippling effect of the sound was everywhere. I felt the clouds come on, and waited for the rain to fall. And fall if did. First, he was speaking rapidly, while agitated and irritated, about “playing” with my phone?. In order to “unlock/jailbreak” it to translate “everything” on our new car’s display, that doesn’t allow its it meant that his has to upload something on my phone, and apparently erase everything else that was on it previously. When I saw the links on his computer, I suspected that whatever he would install wouldn’t be for my benefit. It looked like a spyware that would transmit information. He stalks and follows my whereabouts, that has been established. I don’t fight it, it would provoke more anxiety, anger and lash out. But this is going too far, I want a certain level of privacy and reaching out into the world without thinking that he will hear and read my every thought. So I calmly told him to use his phone for that in a non chalant manner. He replied I am not going to ask you twice, you know me (is it a threat?) I won’t sleep with you tonight and don’t speak to me for two days (punishment). I ignored and didn’t validate any of his words. As he laid down on our bed, I was getting ready to pick up something that our d14 left behind at our friend's house last night. So I told him, it would be nice if you came along, it’s after 10 pm, to which he replied “no”. I continued to get dressed and asked him “so what did you want to erase/upload anyway?” Waiting for normal explanation. “Forget it” followed, I left to pick up the item to our friends. As I drove there, I listened to DBT podcast about 4 choices in every situation: “change it if you can, brainstorm the options, if non can be found or satisfactory, change the attitude towards them, if you can’t find a silver lining, accept them radically, and remove all emotions associated with it, and last to stay miserable”. I’m between option 2 and 3 right now, hopefully fully moving into 3. At my friends house they welcomed me wholeheartedly, I felt like I belong, they were warm and affectionate. I had a glass of wine and rushed home, so I don’t exacerbate the situation further. When I came, he was in bed, I laid down, told him good nights and fell asleep. He stayed on our bed after all... .did I preserve my privacy boundaries? We shall see. He just might find the way.

WELL DONE for standing your ground and holding tight to that boundary!  |iiii  I'm really impressed.  That had to be very uncomfortable with him making threats of repercussions.  What ways does he monitor you aside from what you suspect he was trying to do?

Love and light x

@HQ, thank you for acknowledging my small victory, I stood my grounds, he woke up and poof... .being “normal”. Not a word about my phone, he is all about going back to work tomorrow. Looks like I have to come, as he needs me to help him with business. I’m coming back on Thursday, I have an exam, so that is established.
He monitors
1. Our calls are somehow “synchronized”, meaning once he makes a call, it appears on my ca log list, and vise versa
2. Phone finder, every time I’m away, without permission he texts “nice life, shopping at xyz, where I’m actually at.
3. Find friends?. Unsure... .there may be more
When and if I’m not visible, he lashes out, why did you turn it off?.

I don't think every person with BPD pinches someone like that when they are hurting, but they do tend to project their bad feelings outwards. It sounds like poor boundaries- not knowing where he ends and you begin. He feels pain and so he wants you to feel it too. We can express our emotions and be empathetic, but we can't feel someone else's feelings. If your loved one goes to the dentist to get a tooth filled, you can be caring, but it isn't you feeling the drill or the anxiety of being in the dentist chair. Each human has a personal boundary, but pwBPD see their loved ones as extensions of themselves.

Same with the phone. It is your phone and you call who you want to call, go where you need to go. He really doesn't have the right to track you without your permission, but if he has poor boundaries with you, then your phone is his phone and he feels he can track you.

I think it is great that you held your boundary. If we are with someone who has poor boundaries, it is up to us to demonstrate what is us, and what is you.

NotWendy,
Thank you for your support and clearing the boundary situation, it is indeed true. He expects me to fully “experience” any kind of pain, and share it. My approach has always been brainstorming and figuring a way of dealing with issue. At times he doesn’t want to take my help or advice, he just wants me to “feel” his pain. It’s exhausting and pointless on so many levels.
On a separate note, today I saw him making the arrangements to self medicate with a “substance”,    it came to that. I know it’s the highest level of “spinning” and he just wants it to stop. Once he does it, he will be apologizing, opening up and “making up for BPD time”. It’s a window of opportunity to encourage him to seek help. How I hate these moments. I don’t do drugs, I occasionally have a glass of wine, but no strong spirits. I hate this time when he “demands” immediate intimacy from me. He asks me to be creative and experiment in a sexual way, while begging me for forgiveness for all he did prior. I know he is being sincere, but somehow this apology coming from a person who is under influence doesn’t help me rebuild the trust and our relationships. It makes me feel dirty somehow, when I participate in his shenanigans. I watch him so he doesn’t od, and that he is alive and breathing, so he doesn’t drive or do anything further damaging. I tried “policing”, but it only made things more complex, with him running away and hiding. He is a father of my children and my partner for 17 years, I can’t stand a thought of him hurting himself the way he does. Undoubtedly, his brain chemistry is forever altered. All I can do is to make sure he doesn’t do it around the kids, which he never did, and that he stays alive and hydrated to see another day. How much pain one must be in to do that to themselves

Drug abuse is a sad consequence of this disorder- not all pwBPD do this, but it is a form of self medicating. I think this situation requires some professional help- for you as to how to handle this. Saying no to his demands for sex when he is high might compromise your safety. I would want professional guidance with this. It would be one thing ( not a good thing but it only involves himself)  if he just got high and sat alone in his room but he is also expecting you to be a participant in this.

It’s like this:
He tells me “I’m now raw and naked before you, this is what I’m apologizing for xyz... .all things he did to me, this time is I’m sure about my birthday, my eye damage among little things”. I’m sorry I hurt you, I love you so much, let me make it up to you. E.g. take you on vacation, buy the car you want, spend time the way you want to... .” then comes the catch. “Now that I redeemed myself (in his own eyes) let’s have the most exciting mind blowing sex, (BPDs often aren’t capable of emotional intimacy, therefore sex becomes an approximation). I want to try xyz”. Meanwhile I’m sorting out my feelings and concern for his mental and physical well being.

I think sexual issues are common in a relationship with someone who has difficulty with boundaries, intimacy and self regulation. I don't know your husband but he could have multiple reasons for this suggestion and the timing of it. It might be many things at once. He may be remorseful in the moment and want to feel connected, and also sex can make him feel better, like a drug. It's important to know how you feel. I can understand not feeling like you want to participate at the moment, or if you are interested in his suggestion to XYZ.

The timing to discuss your feelings might not be right either. If he is high and aroused it could be volatile.

I don't know if you have posted about therapy- are you seeing a T? There are several layers to this situation- drug abuse, intimacy, physical and emotional abuse. Personally, I would want professional guidance on how to navigate these issues. I think you did great with the phone incident- when you held your own and he seemed to calm down. You can also have boundaries on your intimacy- it is your body and you don't have to do X or Y or Z or have sex when he is high, but this is also treading on sensitive grounds with him and I think I'd want professional help with how to do that.

His plans are being diverted; it’s my father’s birthday today, and they are on very good footings, so we could not leave back to his work. He also has bunch of appointments at his “work situation” that requires him to be sober. He suggested he does it next weekend. I have an exam upcoming Thursday, that means I’m coming back “home”. Radical acceptance isn’t an easy skill for me, I still learning and processing the fact, that this is what it is. He is a grown man, who is supposed to be responsible for his own well being. Why do I continue to enable his BPD episodes by providing unconditional support, or at times reinforcement?.

I too think you did great with the phone incident.

I would also want you to consider that you may want to "wipe your phone" back to factory original... .and the rebuild all the apps the way you want them.

It seems obvious he is tracking you or somehow using this to monitor you.

That would seem to be the next logical step... .

FF

Thank you formflier, I will probably do that. Additionally, I want to separate our accounts for Apple ID, through it he does all kinds of changes, even without my knowledge. I’m overwhelmed with him on an hourly basis, during our celebration brunch for my father’s Birthday he spent the time on his phone, cussing and eye rolling, he is trying to jailbreak his own phone to play music and watch tv while driving?. (He is cursing and yelling downstairs as I type this, I’m feeling like a deer in head lights completely paralyzed and frozen. No, I don’t want to go to “work” with him, to be subjected to further yelling, and then seeing him high, asking me to become “creative and experiment”. He is yelling at the d14 too now, to turn off the music. This man is completely unable to tolerate distress, he is having some difficulty jail breaking his phone, which creates a huge ripple effect. I’m trying to remain calm, as we agreed that I go with him, since his partner is away with his lover in France. I’m trying to observe and only report the things I see and hear in order not to assign any interpretation to his behaviour.

Snowglobe


As I interrupt what you describe I would not call him pinching and hurting you classic BPD type behavior.   I don't think it fits the patterns described in the DSM.    I understand that the Cluster B personality disorders can overlap and they can co-exist.    There are not firm fixed lines dividing the Cluster B disorders, they are more broad and general outlines.

I agree with NotWendy.   There are multiple layers in what you describe.   There appears to be more than one problem at play.   I second her recommendation for navigating cautiously.



That's a good question.    I can't answer why you would do it.   I can say why I enabled my Ex.   For me, it was conditioning, lack of self esteem, depression combined with a desire to reach the prize,... .the idealization of being the 'most wonderful person in the world' even for a little while.

how are you feeling today?

'ducks

Perhaps one of the most important questions you can answer for yourself... .is why you "enable" or "participate" in this type of behavior.

Once you understand this, perhaps you can find other ways to fulfill a "need" or "desire" and perhaps you can make more thoughtful decisions that move your relationship in a healthier direction.

Perhaps in the short run you are better served getting some answers for the question of why you do what you do,  instead of why he would pinch you like that.

What do you think?

FF

Good afternoon Snowglobe,


My ex/w used to pinch the "fire" out of me sometimes, I never understood why, I used to think she was being "playful"... .We were in our early twenties at the time... .it really used to make me angry, because if I reciprocated, she would get very angry with me !

That was a long time ago, nineteen eighty something... .long before any of our "problems" came to the surface... .I was married to her for twenty two years.


"Technology" provides abusers with many very "bad" opportunities... .I actually play dumb most times... .as I was a hard case hold out with my old "flip-phone"... .now I really watch my internet usage, and I control all my own activities to keep my current wife out of "my business"... .yes, I really hate "technology" sometimes... .many pitfalls.

I also think you did a very good job of holding your boundary where this is concerned,

Best regards, Red5

Snowglobe,

Good job on speaking out, both about being pinched and about protecting your phone.  Regarding what the function of the pinching behavior is, many of us who are inclined to self-study to figure out what's going on seek answers like that.  It can sometimes be helpful, but the answers can be elusive.  Sometimes we get more benefit by simply looking at what the behaviors are and what the impact is that they have on us.  I would encourage you to continue vigorously defending your body from inflicted pain -- if it becomes accepted for him to inflict pain on you, things would likely escalate.

Have you considered attending a local Al-Anon meeting to help you deal with your reactions to your husband's addictions?  They address some of the very questions you are asking.  There are almost certainly meetings in both of the sites you live at, and they are free.  It is an excellent way to develop an in-person support system.  The meetings vary, so I'd encourage you to attend several different ones to find a mix of people who you gel well with.

WW

Thank you for reaching out to me Wentworth, I was trying to attend codependent anonymous, but because of the crazy travel schedule it all went down the hill. Perhaps trying to connect with codependent, al anon will provide the support group I’m looking for. The things that I experience daily aren’t for the light of heart. It’s a heavy burden to carry around, especially for my close friends. Being married to my uBPDh has been isolating... .his unsafe and unacceptable behaviour drove many topical people away from us (couples) and alienated me from my personal friends. “Couples friends”, can’t deal with his inconsistency, one minute he is in a terrific mood, the second he is putting me down in front of everyone telling me, in front of other people “are there gonna be any cute barely legal girls for me to check out and drool over? Do you think that I have a chance with getting one of them in bed if I show her my net worth?. I only want to ... .no feelings attached”. I had so many famale friends tell me, that although they like me and my company, my husband is like a poisoned apple, makes them all uncomfortable, as a result of his misogynistic remarks and views. Those who choose to stick around, plead and beg for me to leave him, offering a place to stay.

I am glad you have the validation of friends who see your situation and are willing to help by offering a place to stay.

The nice thing about Al-Anon is that there are meetings everywhere, and on many days of the week, so you can likely get to one or two meetings a week in either location.  If life is unpredictable and you miss a meeting, there is likely another one soon.  You don't even have to say anything.  Just sitting amongst other folks who understand crazy situations can be comforting.

WW

Hey... .keep focused on the big picture. 

If you have meetings that YOU want to attend... .it seems odd to me that HIS travel schedule changes that.

I was under the impression that over the summer you would be back... taking classes... .and letting him travel and do his thing.  What has happened to that plan?

FF

There are meetings almost everywhere and even online/phone ones.

I didn't imagine I'd end up in 12 step co-dependency programs as alcohol wasn't an issue I was dealing with but they work for any type of enabling situation. A counselor recommended them to me a few years ago. I was scared to walk in that room. But now, I realize it was a great situation for me.

It is helpful to work with a sponsor. You are correct that this isn't something friends can do for you well. Someone objective - and who has been in your shoes in some way is a good guide. Everything is confidential and no judgement.

Isolation is a common theme. Having contacts in the group as well as a sponsor helps alleviate that. Members are encouraged to pick up the phone and call.

I recommend you do this alone. It isn't couples counseling. It's for you. For my own comfort level and also my husband's, I chose a female sponsor since we had a confidential relationship. I did go for some relationship issues, but also my FOO, so I had several reasons to attend.

@FF, I’m being honest, it all came crushing and burning. I’m deeply disappointed with myself, and saddened that yet again I enabled him, in a worst way possible. After the incident with my phone, he needed to go to “work” the following week, and asked me to come along, to help him with insurance related stuff for business. My exams were on Thursday, and the plan was, for us to leave on Monday, me help him around, and then take a train back home to write the exam on thursday. Little did I know that he was already “prepared” when we departed. Long story short, he had enough stimulant with him to kill an elephant. As soon as we arrived he started to engage in abusing it the worst way possible. The flood gates came undone half way, he apologized for my eye, wanted to make plans to move family to “work site”, even if temporarily, that lasted about an hour. After that the usual, the drug, and watching porn on his laptop. I stayed awake the entire night making sure I can call for help, should he od. I fell asleep around 6 am, when I awoke it was well into morning, he had miltiple work arrangements that he needed to attend, including giving his employees salaries, visiting work sites, dealing with pressing issues. So, as usual, I got up, forced him into the shower, dressed him up, and drove him around to do all the above mentioned things, while he was in the back seat attending to his “habit”. Why did I do it, you may ask? I ask myself thins question a lot too. Well, because those people, they rely on him, for resolving issues, to get paid in time, they have kids and mortgages and so on. So I did it instead of studying for my exam. We came back late at night, I forced him to stop and calm down, he has a strong sleeping pill he takes after, so I waited until he stopped doing what he did, to see that he took the “downer”, so there would not be any day 3. The following day he had important meeting, and he felt and looked like a road kill, I gave him his asthma nebulizer, cleaned him up and went to the business meeting to secure a potential contract. Why? Because my family’s livelihood also depends on how well he does. That was Tuesday. Still no studying in sight... .by the evening of the same day the withdrawal kicked in, so again I enabled him by nursing him back to health with food and medication. On Wednesday I dealt with insurance and by the evening I realized that the chances of me doing well on that test were non existent. I’m saddened and ashamed to admit that I dropped this course. I was also with him the entire time at “work”. Moving forward, I will continue with DBT online training, he also agreed to attend Marsha Linehan’s retreat in September. It will do both of us well. I also plan to register for online courses towards my degree at other universities, so I can finally finish it. I will not put the entire blame on him, for sabotaging my studies, I have a choice of taking care of myself and my business. I don’t know how to get rid of the pressing fear that he dies through odying. Lamar Odom story is very similar to what my uBPDh does. His bingies are always coming during the times of stress, uncertainty or in a wake of him doing something  atrocious.
So there you go, FF, I let myself down, again

You don't really expect him to attend a seminar with you... do you?


It would matter if he agreed for a behavioral change tomorrow... .and was consistent with that for a period of time.

Promising to do something months from now, as a "deal" to get you to do stuff for him now (be his nurse, mother... .whatever)... .costs him nothing.

Do you see that?

Is an apology without action a really apology?

You understand that there is no "need" for him to care for himself... .right?  Because you are doing it for him.  You "force" him to shower (can you see how that "feeds" him in a dysfunctional way?)

The longer this continues... .the harder it will be to undo... .do you truly understand that?

So... you are disappointed in yourself... .what specifically are you going to do now... today... .to walk down a road where there is less disappointment.

FF

You are not alone with this kind of enabling behavior.

I assumed I did not have an "addiction problem" because I don't have issues with drugs or alcohol. After sitting in 12 step meetings - which included addicts and alcoholic, I finally saw the connection between enabling and addiction. A person may not understand why they enable and they also are in a sense as powerless over their behavior as an addict is with drugs or alcohol. The addict might think "oh I can quit anytime" "I can control this" and they may at times want to but then when faced with the situation to do drugs or drink - they find it irresistible.

Please don't be hard on yourself. You had the best of intentions, but when faced with the situation, your fears of what could happen took a hold of you. This is similar to an alcoholic being tempted with a drink. It took me a while to understand the term "emotional sobriety" but then I began to recognize the emotional "hooks" that got me into enabling behavior and understood that I was emotionally "sober" when I didn't give in to them. But I can't forget the tendency to enable is something I need to stay aware of.

I know you feel badly about what happened and it took courage to admit to that. I hope that you can get yourself into an Alanon group. There you will find you are not alone, people have walked your path and are there to help you gain skills and support on how to stop enabling behaviors. Just stopping on your own doesn't address your fears. You can learn how to address them.

The Blue Book of AA is an interesting read. These 12 step programs are based on it. It was written in an earlier era- the alcoholics were men, their enablers were their wives. Some of the language is religious and based on early Christianity. However, the model can be adapted to modern times - we know both women and men can be addicts and/or enablers, and the "Higher Power " concept adapted to any belief system. How AA came about was serendipitous. They found that while there are things that can treat addiction physically, underlying addiction is a spiritual (in the universal - not necessarily religious sense- a disconnect from your self and your own Higher Power )  and emotional issue that is effectively addressed through this program.

Then, they discovered that they could get the alcoholics to stop drinking but the alcoholics got worse. This is when the attention shifted to the wives. They discovered a pattern of behavior in the wives. The wives were loving, self sacrificing and they kept the alcoholics from experiencing the consequences of their behaviors. They covered up the drinking, made excuses to the alcoholic's bosses.

They learned that the best time to help an alcoholic was when that person hit bottom- faced the consequences of their actions. The wives actually hindered their husbands' chances of recovery by keeping them from facing the consequences of their addiction. So they had no incentive to change.

This is how Al Anon came to be.

As you know I’m currently doing the DBT 12 weeks training, the event organized and delivered by skilled DBT team and Marsha herself. I enrolled into the retreat, and after his “fall out” he said that he wants to try and also got registered. You are correct about apologizing without actual apology. He paid for both of us to attend, but only I’m certainly coming. He cancelled events before, even at the risk of loosing money. Do I know for certain that he will attend, or participate meaningfully, and not chaperone me instead? I don’t know.
I’m looking into similar psychology programs, that are available online. The only way I can ensure that I graduate is if i take it online. It gives me flexibility and the time I need to complete my almost finished degree. I’m shy of four subjects. Next, is figuring out my employment setuation. It’s also complex. If I start the employment, based on his income, I’m most likely to pay all of my salary and then some in taxes. Does it make financial sense for our family- no, will it provide a buffer for me to fall on should he pull the plug on me- yes.

I know that DBT is useful for many things, but you are not the one with BPD. What is your interest in doing the DBT program?

Please check your thinking... ."the only way" is NOT only to take online classes.

There are certainly other ways, but taking online classes will apparently remove some of the hard choices that have been disappointments for your lately.

Why kick those choices down the road?  Why not face them now?

It was only recently that you had a "plan" to remain at home and finish classes... .why create a new plan?

FF

I’ve been raised by uBPD and npd parents, a lot of anxieties and issues with emotional regulation. In addition, I suffer from anxieties and expectations of gloom and doom stemming from their ugly divorce and custody arrangements. I was passed between them like a trophy and means of hurting the other party. DBT is highly effective not only for BPD, but also anxiety, depression and emotional regulation.

My uBPDh basically gave me a run down of things according to his view on things; “I come along and “support him”, and we continue as a family unity”, or “I stay with kids, he can’t “be alone”, he seeks comfort in other women, drugs and pulls Lamar Odom and we grow apart”. He doesn’t see himself being alone or being able to take care of himself, or things when it gets tuff, which it does”. Hence my decision to obtain what I need (my degree), but also give him what he wants (me).

I hope the DBT helps you. I know that growing up in my own FOO (BPD mother, enabling father) contributed to my own enabling behaviors. I did therapy as well. I also added the 12 step programs in addition. I know I must sound like a promotion for the program ( it is free, nobody profits) but it helped me as well, in a different way. I am grateful for both means of support in dealing with issues, past and present.

I've watched a couple of episodes of Khloe and Lamar. Until his experience at the brothel, he seemed to me to be a stabilizing force in his family. I felt sympathy for his attempts to connect with his father, an addict, who would come around to visit and inevitably let Lamar down. I guess I picked this up from just the clips on the show due to my own FOO- so badly wanting my parents to love me in a way they could not.

Sadly, Lamar's issues were intergenerational. He had money, fame, a loving wife but still an empty place in his heart that his father left and he filled it with drugs. It was a tragic event for what ( as far as anyone could tell from a TV show) seems to be a man with a big heart.

 I hope the therapy helps you to deal with the issues that resulted from your parents' situation and also your current one. It's tough work but worth it to learn new relationship skills.

Wouldn't it be better to call his bluff... .or figure out it is real. 

To be frank with you... .I believe it is a bluff. 

Why would ever... .ever... make decisions about your life based on his threats?  Yet you do.

What if he had threatened you with sticking more stuff in your eye?  How would that be any different?

At some point... .the threats need to stop working for him... .then things will change.

FF

How do I play this hand, without making things worse?

I dunno, FF, about whether the threats might actually be real.

My exH also manifested lots of similar behavior: talking that way about young women in my presence, doing drugs to excess, “chasing tail” and finding cooperative women.

I understand Snowglobe’s fear about leaving him alone and unsupervised. That out of control behavior not only affects her and the children, it could cause the collapse of his business and their financial security.

That said, it seems that he’s already walking on a tightrope, ready to fall at any moment, and she’s merely propping him up, waiting for the inevitable.

That constant anxiety is no way to live—I can say from personal experience. And in my case, things got worse with time. I was able to somewhat “manage” him and he didn’t do lots of the unsavory behaviors that he had done in the past—at least, not to my knowledge. However, it’s likely that he continued, but was better at hiding his tracks. I just became increasingly exhausted having to deal with him and keep our lives afloat financially.

For Snowglobe, I believe having a good support network of family and friends is crucial. She is gambling on her husband’s ability to score a big win for the business, but based on his behavioral history, that might not be realistic.

Well... .you know it will get worse if you don't call his bluff... or figure out if it's real.

Right?  You understand that the longer this gets entrenched... .it is tougher to "un-entrench"

Very much like boundaries... .there is not an option where you get a boundary and the world jumps for joy.

He won't like this... just like he didn't like the "phone thing"... .yet how did that turn out.

Please... remove the details.

Do you want to continue "enabling" his threats... or not? 

Granted... .this is coming from a guy that "doesn't do threats".  I just don't. 

For instance... .if my wife is disrespectful... .my wallet stays closed.  If she apologizes and seems sincere... .it's very likely something will get worked out for her.

If my wife threatens me to get something... .I have yet to ever be part of "getting her" what she threatened me about.

And... .threats have pretty much disappeared from my relationship. 

FF

They might not be threats... .that is possible. 

I don't think it's likely... .I don't think it's probable that he really will go through the time and effort to get another woman.
 
By all accounts, he stays pretty busy working, doing drugs or sleeping off the effects.  So... .he wants his current wife to support him.

Once he realizes that threats aren't working... he will likely resort to something else ... .most likely "buying her affection" to get what he wants.

I'm not suggesting she not leave a pathway open for him to get massages, showers and all the other stuff she does for him... .I'm AM saying that "a threat should never get him what he wants

FF

There are several aspect of power in a marriage- money, sex, children to name a few.

Dysfunctional people tend to abuse their power in a marriage- and the other partner feels over a barrel to comply when this happens.

Childhood trauma can play into the fears. Snowglobe posted about not having money for food after the divorce of her parents. In my case, my BPD mother's overspending put the family into debt and there were money worries. Even as a teen I already adopted enabling behaviors - doing without so that Dad would be less stressed not realizing it was a drop in the bucket compared to what my parents were dealing with. Yet, I brought this enabling behavior into my relationships.

I fully agree on what needs to be done to stop this pattern. The enabling has to stop. However, if the consequences are potentially not having food or shelter, this is a fear that also compounds a childhood fear.

Sometimes changes start with small ones. Gaining a support system/counseling is one of them.  Investigating social service options if the husband cuts her off might be a goal- so there isn't the fear of not having food on the table. Fear that he would indulge with women and OD on drugs is real- but this is something there really is no control over- he is ultimately in control of his own behaviors. There are a lot of fears here that are contributing to the enabling.

 
The fears are real and valid... .of that there is no doubt.

The systems in place to protect abused people that have been "cut off" are also real and usually effective.

It is possible he would push her to this point, but that doesn't get him what he wants... her. 

Fear needs to be balanced with a rational view of the work involved for him to go through with his threats.

When would he have the time to "get" someone to rub his feet, shower him... etc etc.

If he spends his time getting that... .then who runs the business... .which he values.

I want to circle around again to "simplification".

Either threats will work in the marriage... or they won't.  The power to determine that is held by Snowglobe. 

It really is that simple... although using the power "seems" like a big deal.

FF

I’m humbled by each and one of your replies, I will later take the time to reply to all of you individually. My biggest problem in therapy are fears of financial ruins. Going from riches to rugs really played a number on my mental state. Going from a household of overindulge to the severe poverty and “punishment of my mother” being the running scheme of my formative years. When I asked my father “can I please have tv, chocolate candies, my furniture to take back home( to my mom)” his replies were: “here (at his house) you can eat as much as you like, throw tv out of the window, but I will never give anything that she can also use. And no to furniture, your house is here”. It made me eat in bingies, to the point of developing allergies, and taught me to hate him (my unpd father). As soon as I grew old enough, I recorded a tape for him to listen during “his time with me”. It basically illustrated my deep repulsion with him and his foo (my mother was the favourite juicy topic of conversation, what kind of whore she is, and how she will never make anything out of her life). In that tape was all of suppressed pain, resentment and hate I tried to suppress all the years (they divoirced when I was 9, we kept regular visits till I was about 14-15). He almost killed me in his righteous rage. He was telling me that he wished I died, and I’m my mother’s daughter. How I will continue the legacy of being stupid whore, ungrateful pig (just imagine Alex Baldwin times a million), I got slapped around on the face, and he spat at me... .that was the end of my connection to my biological dad. Years of poverty and instability followed. I am absolutely petrified of putting my children through the same ordeal. Especially when one of them is with disability. Yet, I am struggling accepting the reality. I’m certain that my reaction stems from early trauma, and the hardship I had to endure and witness early on.

I'm so sorry for all that you have experienced.

I can totally understand how you wouldn't want your children to "model" that... or "go through that".


While I don't want to "stoke" more fears... .perhaps it is useful for you to examine what you are teaching your kids is ok... .and figure out how you feel about that.

None of this is easy... .no guarantees... .I would suggest you focus on what is "likely" to happen... versus a worst case catastrophe.

FF

They say that children raised with dysfunction tend to choose relationships with similar dysfunction in some ways. One reason is that we feel a sense of familiarity with them. I think I also had a distorted experience of love. I was loved when I enabled BPD mother, I was loved when I people pleased. I think I must have had a giant neon sign on me saying "doormat- will do anything for love" to attract people.

I have dealt with different situations than you have in my marriage but when it came to money- feeling undeserving, fears of money problems, and the power imbalance over finances did play a factor. Admittedly the issues I faced were not as severe as yours. But the theme- fears resulting in me being an enabler, a low sense of self worth due to lack of unconditional love from parents is similar.

It took a lot of support- counseling and 12 steps to learn to manage these fears. They don't go away but I can put them in perspective.

I think the contrast of well off/poor in a family is an especially difficult situation. If a whole family is on the same level financially- and not dysfunctional- they still exist as a loving unit. If there is a financial struggle, the children know the parents are doing the best they can. If one parent has money and lets the children struggle, it sends a different message.

Maybe the kids get second hand clothes, or they get designer clothes but they are loved. In your case, Dad had money and mother struggled. In my case, we struggled, mother went on shopping sprees for designer clothing. If I asked my father for money for a new dress, he'd snap at me. In addition, my mother controlled anything he gave me ( I was her black child). He was not even "allowed" to buy me a record album unless she agreed. So I put myself through college, asking for little while also watching mother buy designer shoes in every color.

So I get some of what you are feeling, but bringing these fears and low self worth into my marriage led to problems. I had to deal with them in order to start making changes. What can you do to start taking care of you?

Snowglobe, you're getting some great advice from formflier, Notwendy, and Cat Familiar.  Let me emphasize a couple of things... .

Completing your degree is crucial.  It will be empowering, help you envision an independent future, and ease your concerns about financial abandonment.  Is your commitment solid?  Am I right that you have four more courses to take?  Are you saying that you are going to take all four online or just one or two?  Can you still graduate from your existing degree program at your existing university?

The idea of Alanon seems to resonate with your supporters on this thread, and for good reason.  In order to be successful, you need to do something different, add a tool.  Until you add more support and tools, you are going to be stuck.  Let me ask something big of you.  In the next two weeks, find and attend three different Alanon meetings to get a feel for them.  Would you be willing to sign up to do this for yourself?

WW

Is the "shortest distance" to a complete degree to return on Thursday and take your exam... .the class you are currently enrolled in?

FF

Dear @ff,
That was last Thursday Re:exam, I had to drop it on the same day to get refunded, due to refund schedule. I’m not sure how my education got highjacked, again, is it him (asking for help, making plans, demanding the attention during exam period), or me, always making sure he is ok, stays afloat , business functions... .

I've followed your story Snowglobe and have a couple of questions for you to think on.

What is the worst possible financial implication to your family if you do not go with him to look after him when he has one of these blowouts? Would he in the space of a few days lose his business altogether?  Bear in mind your concern of him withholding money regardless of how much he has.

Would the reality of him womanising for real be worse in your view than him repeatedly expressing the desire to do so, and why?

Investing your time and effort into getting stronger and less dependent on him will reduce the impact he can have on you and your children. It can also save them from repeating the same types of relationships in their lives by showing them that you value yourself. This is an important lesson for our kids. I now teach my son that it's important to be kind and that starts with being kind to ourselves. Please take on board the excellent advice in this thread. You CAN do this 

Love and light x



 

Dear @NotWendy,
Thank you for your encouragement. I will look into attending alaanon, it will be helpful and educational to say the least. What you are describing, in terms of being let down is pretty close to home. Every time my uBPDh needed his parents, or at the family functions, they would always cancel at the last moment with a lame explanation. With accuracy of 90% at any given time, they would cancel the event that they were hosting, or not show up at yours. Yet, just like a dry erase, this would happen over and over again, because my uBPDh just doesn’t learn. It’s incredibly painful to watch, he has the other side, just like most BPD significant others. He is righteous, when he was younger, he apprehended an arm suspect while providing security and intelligence service at a big retail company. The perpetrator was armed, and he only had a flashlight. Nonetheless, he chased him down a busy street, tackled him, and held him until the police came. He was awarded civilian citation and an award. He has a beautiful relationships with nature, plants, dogs, wild life. He can appreciate and cultivate the beauty. Until it comes to me.

@Ff, yes, my decisions don’t come from rational mind, it’s core is reactive and emotional. As anyone who has been in a long term marriage, he knows all of my weak spots, all of them. He watched me cry myself to sleep when my unpd father found me, well into my adulthood, and decided that I owed him payback (he found out that my now husband did well for himself) for supporting me until I was 15 yo. He demanded services and favours from my uBPDh, to make it even. After months of emotional blackmail, I managed to go nc again. All the while my uBPDh saw how hard it was for me. He knows me inside out, about always managing our accounts, not wasting food, being extra careful with anything tangible, because you never know when you won’t be able to replenish it. He can mess with me like no one else. To be able to call the bluff, I need extra support. Because if he goes all nuclear on me, I have to protect the kids.

From where I'm sitting... I'm sure... .do you want to know?  Do you want to guess?

FF

yap, that pretty much describes my life. Him: “I need help to function properly, you do xyz, I function, kids are taken care of, everyone wins.”
Me:”I would really love to help you and build my own career, while helping you”
Him:”ok, as long as it doesn’t interfere with the family (him) but why would you need to work? You will make peanuts, which we would have to pay for taxes”
Me:” I need to stand on my own, wht if something happens to you? How will I take care of kids?”
Him:” I’m not worried about that, I am building something big right now, that will take care of you and the kids”
My rational is not entirely altruistic, I have two kids to bring up, if I help him make it big, they will benefit in a long run. Yet, up to now, it’s all speculation and paper rich philosophy. He is very highly ambitious, so when he was bought out by a public company, and given shares, he considered himself (going public). Not so fast. The shares are flacruating and are staying consistently low, he isn’t able to sell without driving the price further down. He is keen on chasing the mirages, and gets upset when I direct his attention to inconsistencies.

Can you illustrate it with example relevant in my setuation?

Dear @Wentworth,
Indeed, I only have 4 more credits to complete and I’m done. For the rime being the online courses would have to do, and yes, they would count towards the degree from the university I normally attend. I completely agree on new skills and tools to adapt, hence the reason for inline DBT program which I’m currently working in. It will provide both, personal validation and career growth, as psych is my major, ironically. I will look into attending alanon in the area I currently stay in, and report back to you.

@HQ thank you for your questions,
Him going through with threats is ultimately the violation of my boundary that were set from day one. This is the hill that I will ultimately die on. If he added infidelity into the mix, that is already dysfunctional, regardless of what he does thereafter it will ultimately end the relationships for me. It will force me into doing the things that I don’t want to do, so in a way, my approach is “errorless teaching”, he isn’t given a chance to “get it wrong”. Me working towards my degree, while simultaneously juggling is a way of getting “on my feet”

Would rather hear it from you, I think you have a good view on my setuation by now

4 credits... that's two classes... or one big class right?

How many credits was the class you dropped?

Is that dropped class in the math of only 4 credits to go?

How long have you "only had 4 credits left"?  Your hubby is aware of this math... right?

FF

Ok... I'm going to be direct and tell you "what it appears like" and then I'm going to make some educated guesses about "why" and "motivation"

So... .stay big picture with me... .


There are some people... when you look at their life... .time and time again they "rescue defeat from the jaws of victory"

You say you want to be independent... .have a degree... get your own job... so threats won't work anymore.  That's reasonable... that's a solid plan.  I and many other have agreed with that plan, the many times it has been proposed.

You had the classes... you had an "agreement" with your hubby to go back and do the course/exam... and then "poof"... .defeat was rescued from the jaws of victory.  My guess is that you could have gotten the four credits over the summer.  Now... .you likely have to wait for the fall... .and when something happens then, you can always wait until the spring.

I suspect this pattern has happened many times on this and other issues.

The part I would hope you reflect on, so we can all understand, is how or why on certain occasions you let victory happen.  You stand up and don't let him further hack your phone... .the threats go away... .his attitude changes... .and then you go back to "enabling" or whatever we call it.

"more often than not" you seem to "enable".  Yet sometimes you don't.  I'm not aware of a single instance where you stood up to him and he followed through on a threat (not talking about "in the moment stuff"

So... .what can we do to help you "find the person that stands up to him"?  What can you do to find that person?

4 credits... .and you dropped the course.  It's not my course and my life... but that's painful for me to write.

I said I would discuss motivation but I'm thinking I'm going to pass for now.  Why do you think you do it? 

I'm in your corner... .we all are.   I'm rooting for you!

FF

To be exact it I have 4 major related courses to take, each course is worth 3 credits= 12 credits to graduate.  I have dropped a course that is worth 3 credits, which was supposed to go forwards those 12 credits towards my graduation, leaving me exactly in the same spot I have been stuck in. When I said “4 credits left, I meant 4 course left”, it’s been happening since last fall. A year exactly, last course I successfully completed was summer school of last year. Throughout this year I have been dropping courses. My hubby is very much aware of this, he isn’t stopping me, according to him, yet, in his actions and behaviour he is making it difficult, if not impossible to be successful

*mod*

Due to reaching it's size limit, this thread has now been locked and is continued in the following thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325906.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325906.0)