Function of the particular behaviour for pwBPD

[Notwendy]

I hope the DBT helps you. I know that growing up in my own FOO (BPD mother, enabling father) contributed to my own enabling behaviors. I did therapy as well. I also added the 12 step programs in addition. I know I must sound like a promotion for the program ( it is free, nobody profits) but it helped me as well, in a different way. I am grateful for both means of support in dealing with issues, past and present.

I've watched a couple of episodes of Khloe and Lamar. Until his experience at the brothel, he seemed to me to be a stabilizing force in his family. I felt sympathy for his attempts to connect with his father, an addict, who would come around to visit and inevitably let Lamar down. I guess I picked this up from just the clips on the show due to my own FOO- so badly wanting my parents to love me in a way they could not.

Sadly, Lamar's issues were intergenerational. He had money, fame, a loving wife but still an empty place in his heart that his father left and he filled it with drugs. It was a tragic event for what ( as far as anyone could tell from a TV show) seems to be a man with a big heart.

 I hope the therapy helps you to deal with the issues that resulted from your parents' situation and also your current one. It's tough work but worth it to learn new relationship skills.

[formflier]

My uBPDh basically gave me a run down of things according to his view on things; “I come along and “support him”, and we continue as a family unity”, or “I stay with kids, he can’t “be alone”, he seeks comfort in other women, drugs and pulls Lamar Odom and we grow apart”. He doesn’t see himself being alone or being able to take care of himself, or things when it gets tuff, which it does”. Hence my decision to obtain what I need (my degree), but also give him what he wants (me).

Wouldn't it be better to call his bluff... .or figure out it is real. 

To be frank with you... .I believe it is a bluff. 

Why would ever... .ever... make decisions about your life based on his threats?  Yet you do.

What if he had threatened you with sticking more stuff in your eye?  How would that be any different?

At some point... .the threats need to stop working for him... .then things will change.

FF

[snowglobe]

Wouldn't it be better to call his bluff... .or figure out it is real. 

To be frank with you... .I believe it is a bluff. 

Why would ever... .ever... make decisions about your life based on his threats?  Yet you do.

What if he had threatened you with sticking more stuff in your eye?  How would that be any different?

At some point... .the threats need to stop working for him... .then things will change.

FF

How do I play this hand, without making things worse?

[Cat Familiar]

I dunno, FF, about whether the threats might actually be real.

My exH also manifested lots of similar behavior: talking that way about young women in my presence, doing drugs to excess, “chasing tail” and finding cooperative women.

I understand Snowglobe’s fear about leaving him alone and unsupervised. That out of control behavior not only affects her and the children, it could cause the collapse of his business and their financial security.

That said, it seems that he’s already walking on a tightrope, ready to fall at any moment, and she’s merely propping him up, waiting for the inevitable.

That constant anxiety is no way to live—I can say from personal experience. And in my case, things got worse with time. I was able to somewhat “manage” him and he didn’t do lots of the unsavory behaviors that he had done in the past—at least, not to my knowledge. However, it’s likely that he continued, but was better at hiding his tracks. I just became increasingly exhausted having to deal with him and keep our lives afloat financially.

For Snowglobe, I believe having a good support network of family and friends is crucial. She is gambling on her husband’s ability to score a big win for the business, but based on his behavioral history, that might not be realistic.

[formflier]

How do I play this hand, without making things worse?

Well... .you know it will get worse if you don't call his bluff... or figure out if it's real.

Right?  You understand that the longer this gets entrenched... .it is tougher to "un-entrench"

Very much like boundaries... .there is not an option where you get a boundary and the world jumps for joy.

He won't like this... just like he didn't like the "phone thing"... .yet how did that turn out.

Please... remove the details.

Do you want to continue "enabling" his threats... or not? 

Granted... .this is coming from a guy that "doesn't do threats".  I just don't. 

For instance... .if my wife is disrespectful... .my wallet stays closed.  If she apologizes and seems sincere... .it's very likely something will get worked out for her.

If my wife threatens me to get something... .I have yet to ever be part of "getting her" what she threatened me about.

And... .threats have pretty much disappeared from my relationship. 

FF

[formflier]

I dunno, FF, about whether the threats might actually be real.

 

That said, it seems that he’s already walking on a tightrope, ready to fall at any moment, and she’s merely propping him up, waiting for the inevitable.

That constant anxiety is no way to live—I can say from personal experience.

And in my case, things got worse with time.


I was able to somewhat “manage” him and he didn’t do lots of the unsavory behaviors that he had done in the past—at least, not to my knowledge.

However, it’s likely that he continued, but was better at hiding his tracks. I just became increasingly exhausted having to deal with him and keep our lives afloat financially.

For Snowglobe, I believe having a good support network of family and friends is crucial. She is gambling on her husband’s ability to score a big win for the business, but based on his behavioral history, that might not be realistic.

They might not be threats... .that is possible. 

I don't think it's likely... .I don't think it's probable that he really will go through the time and effort to get another woman.
 
By all accounts, he stays pretty busy working, doing drugs or sleeping off the effects.  So... .he wants his current wife to support him.

Once he realizes that threats aren't working... he will likely resort to something else ... .most likely "buying her affection" to get what he wants.

I'm not suggesting she not leave a pathway open for him to get massages, showers and all the other stuff she does for him... .I'm AM saying that "a threat should never get him what he wants

FF

[Notwendy]

There are several aspect of power in a marriage- money, sex, children to name a few.

Dysfunctional people tend to abuse their power in a marriage- and the other partner feels over a barrel to comply when this happens.

Childhood trauma can play into the fears. Snowglobe posted about not having money for food after the divorce of her parents. In my case, my BPD mother's overspending put the family into debt and there were money worries. Even as a teen I already adopted enabling behaviors - doing without so that Dad would be less stressed not realizing it was a drop in the bucket compared to what my parents were dealing with. Yet, I brought this enabling behavior into my relationships.

I fully agree on what needs to be done to stop this pattern. The enabling has to stop. However, if the consequences are potentially not having food or shelter, this is a fear that also compounds a childhood fear.

Sometimes changes start with small ones. Gaining a support system/counseling is one of them.  Investigating social service options if the husband cuts her off might be a goal- so there isn't the fear of not having food on the table. Fear that he would indulge with women and OD on drugs is real- but this is something there really is no control over- he is ultimately in control of his own behaviors. There are a lot of fears here that are contributing to the enabling.

[formflier]

 
The fears are real and valid... .of that there is no doubt.

The systems in place to protect abused people that have been "cut off" are also real and usually effective.

It is possible he would push her to this point, but that doesn't get him what he wants... her. 

Fear needs to be balanced with a rational view of the work involved for him to go through with his threats.

When would he have the time to "get" someone to rub his feet, shower him... etc etc.

If he spends his time getting that... .then who runs the business... .which he values.

I want to circle around again to "simplification".

Either threats will work in the marriage... or they won't.  The power to determine that is held by Snowglobe. 

It really is that simple... although using the power "seems" like a big deal.

FF

[snowglobe]

I’m humbled by each and one of your replies, I will later take the time to reply to all of you individually. My biggest problem in therapy are fears of financial ruins. Going from riches to rugs really played a number on my mental state. Going from a household of overindulge to the severe poverty and “punishment of my mother” being the running scheme of my formative years. When I asked my father “can I please have tv, chocolate candies, my furniture to take back home( to my mom)” his replies were: “here (at his house) you can eat as much as you like, throw tv out of the window, but I will never give anything that she can also use. And no to furniture, your house is here”. It made me eat in bingies, to the point of developing allergies, and taught me to hate him (my unpd father). As soon as I grew old enough, I recorded a tape for him to listen during “his time with me”. It basically illustrated my deep repulsion with him and his foo (my mother was the favourite juicy topic of conversation, what kind of whore she is, and how she will never make anything out of her life). In that tape was all of suppressed pain, resentment and hate I tried to suppress all the years (they divoirced when I was 9, we kept regular visits till I was about 14-15). He almost killed me in his righteous rage. He was telling me that he wished I died, and I’m my mother’s daughter. How I will continue the legacy of being stupid whore, ungrateful pig (just imagine Alex Baldwin times a million), I got slapped around on the face, and he spat at me... .that was the end of my connection to my biological dad. Years of poverty and instability followed. I am absolutely petrified of putting my children through the same ordeal. Especially when one of them is with disability. Yet, I am struggling accepting the reality. I’m certain that my reaction stems from early trauma, and the hardship I had to endure and witness early on.

[formflier]

I'm so sorry for all that you have experienced.

I can totally understand how you wouldn't want your children to "model" that... or "go through that".

I am absolutely petrified of putting my children through the same ordeal. Especially when one of them is with disability. 

While I don't want to "stoke" more fears... .perhaps it is useful for you to examine what you are teaching your kids is ok... .and figure out how you feel about that.

None of this is easy... .no guarantees... .I would suggest you focus on what is "likely" to happen... versus a worst case catastrophe.

FF

[Notwendy]

They say that children raised with dysfunction tend to choose relationships with similar dysfunction in some ways. One reason is that we feel a sense of familiarity with them. I think I also had a distorted experience of love. I was loved when I enabled BPD mother, I was loved when I people pleased. I think I must have had a giant neon sign on me saying "doormat- will do anything for love" to attract people.

I have dealt with different situations than you have in my marriage but when it came to money- feeling undeserving, fears of money problems, and the power imbalance over finances did play a factor. Admittedly the issues I faced were not as severe as yours. But the theme- fears resulting in me being an enabler, a low sense of self worth due to lack of unconditional love from parents is similar.

It took a lot of support- counseling and 12 steps to learn to manage these fears. They don't go away but I can put them in perspective.

I think the contrast of well off/poor in a family is an especially difficult situation. If a whole family is on the same level financially- and not dysfunctional- they still exist as a loving unit. If there is a financial struggle, the children know the parents are doing the best they can. If one parent has money and lets the children struggle, it sends a different message.

Maybe the kids get second hand clothes, or they get designer clothes but they are loved. In your case, Dad had money and mother struggled. In my case, we struggled, mother went on shopping sprees for designer clothing. If I asked my father for money for a new dress, he'd snap at me. In addition, my mother controlled anything he gave me ( I was her black child). He was not even "allowed" to buy me a record album unless she agreed. So I put myself through college, asking for little while also watching mother buy designer shoes in every color.

So I get some of what you are feeling, but bringing these fears and low self worth into my marriage led to problems. I had to deal with them in order to start making changes. What can you do to start taking care of you?

[Radcliff]

Snowglobe, you're getting some great advice from formflier, Notwendy, and Cat Familiar.  Let me emphasize a couple of things... .

Completing your degree is crucial.  It will be empowering, help you envision an independent future, and ease your concerns about financial abandonment.  Is your commitment solid?  Am I right that you have four more courses to take?  Are you saying that you are going to take all four online or just one or two?  Can you still graduate from your existing degree program at your existing university?

The idea of Alanon seems to resonate with your supporters on this thread, and for good reason.  In order to be successful, you need to do something different, add a tool.  Until you add more support and tools, you are going to be stuck.  Let me ask something big of you.  In the next two weeks, find and attend three different Alanon meetings to get a feel for them.  Would you be willing to sign up to do this for yourself?

WW

[formflier]

Is the "shortest distance" to a complete degree to return on Thursday and take your exam... .the class you are currently enrolled in?

FF

[snowglobe]

Is the "shortest distance" to a complete degree to return on Thursday and take your exam... .the class you are currently enrolled in?

FF

Dear @ff,
That was last Thursday Re:exam, I had to drop it on the same day to get refunded, due to refund schedule. I’m not sure how my education got highjacked, again, is it him (asking for help, making plans, demanding the attention during exam period), or me, always making sure he is ok, stays afloat , business functions... .

[Harley Quinn]

I've followed your story Snowglobe and have a couple of questions for you to think on.

What is the worst possible financial implication to your family if you do not go with him to look after him when he has one of these blowouts? Would he in the space of a few days lose his business altogether?  Bear in mind your concern of him withholding money regardless of how much he has.

Would the reality of him womanising for real be worse in your view than him repeatedly expressing the desire to do so, and why?

Investing your time and effort into getting stronger and less dependent on him will reduce the impact he can have on you and your children. It can also save them from repeating the same types of relationships in their lives by showing them that you value yourself. This is an important lesson for our kids. I now teach my son that it's important to be kind and that starts with being kind to ourselves. Please take on board the excellent advice in this thread. You CAN do this 

Love and light x



 

[snowglobe]

I hope the DBT helps you. I know that growing up in my own FOO (BPD mother, enabling father) contributed to my own enabling behaviors. I did therapy as well. I also added the 12 step programs in addition. I know I must sound like a promotion for the program ( it is free, nobody profits) but it helped me as well, in a different way. I am grateful for both means of support in dealing with issues, past and present.

I've watched a couple of episodes of Khloe and Lamar. Until his experience at the brothel, he seemed to me to be a stabilizing force in his family. I felt sympathy for his attempts to connect with his father, an addict, who would come around to visit and inevitably let Lamar down. I guess I picked this up from just the clips on the show due to my own FOO- so badly wanting my parents to love me in a way they could not.

Sadly, Lamar's issues were intergenerational. He had money, fame, a loving wife but still an empty place in his heart that his father left and he filled it with drugs. It was a tragic event for what ( as far as anyone could tell from a TV show) seems to be a man with a big heart.

 I hope the therapy helps you to deal with the issues that resulted from your parents' situation and also your current one. It's tough work but worth it to learn new relationship skills.

Dear @NotWendy,
Thank you for your encouragement. I will look into attending alaanon, it will be helpful and educational to say the least. What you are describing, in terms of being let down is pretty close to home. Every time my uBPDh needed his parents, or at the family functions, they would always cancel at the last moment with a lame explanation. With accuracy of 90% at any given time, they would cancel the event that they were hosting, or not show up at yours. Yet, just like a dry erase, this would happen over and over again, because my uBPDh just doesn’t learn. It’s incredibly painful to watch, he has the other side, just like most BPD significant others. He is righteous, when he was younger, he apprehended an arm suspect while providing security and intelligence service at a big retail company. The perpetrator was armed, and he only had a flashlight. Nonetheless, he chased him down a busy street, tackled him, and held him until the police came. He was awarded civilian citation and an award. He has a beautiful relationships with nature, plants, dogs, wild life. He can appreciate and cultivate the beauty. Until it comes to me.

[snowglobe]

Wouldn't it be better to call his bluff... .or figure out it is real. 

To be frank with you... .I believe it is a bluff. 

Why would ever... .ever... make decisions about your life based on his threats?  Yet you do.

What if he had threatened you with sticking more stuff in your eye?  How would that be any different?

At some point... .the threats need to stop working for him... .then things will change.

FF

@Ff, yes, my decisions don’t come from rational mind, it’s core is reactive and emotional. As anyone who has been in a long term marriage, he knows all of my weak spots, all of them. He watched me cry myself to sleep when my unpd father found me, well into my adulthood, and decided that I owed him payback (he found out that my now husband did well for himself) for supporting me until I was 15 yo. He demanded services and favours from my uBPDh, to make it even. After months of emotional blackmail, I managed to go nc again. All the while my uBPDh saw how hard it was for me. He knows me inside out, about always managing our accounts, not wasting food, being extra careful with anything tangible, because you never know when you won’t be able to replenish it. He can mess with me like no one else. To be able to call the bluff, I need extra support. Because if he goes all nuclear on me, I have to protect the kids.

[formflier]

Dear @ff,
That was last Thursday Re:exam, I had to drop it on the same day to get refunded, due to refund schedule. I’m not sure how my education got highjacked, again, is it him (asking for help, making plans, demanding the attention during exam period), or me, always making sure he is ok, stays afloat , business functions... .

From where I'm sitting... I'm sure... .do you want to know?  Do you want to guess?

FF

[snowglobe]

I dunno, FF, about whether the threats might actually be real.

My exH also manifested lots of similar behavior: talking that way about young women in my presence, doing drugs to excess, “chasing tail” and finding cooperative women.

I understand Snowglobe’s fear about leaving him alone and unsupervised. That out of control behavior not only affects her and the children, it could cause the collapse of his business and their financial security.

That said, it seems that he’s already walking on a tightrope, ready to fall at any moment, and she’s merely propping him up, waiting for the inevitable.

That constant anxiety is no way to live—I can say from personal experience. And in my case, things got worse with time. I was able to somewhat “manage” him and he didn’t do lots of the unsavory behaviors that he had done in the past—at least, not to my knowledge. However, it’s likely that he continued, but was better at hiding his tracks. I just became increasingly exhausted having to deal with him and keep our lives afloat financially.

For Snowglobe, I believe having a good support network of family and friends is crucial. She is gambling on her husband’s ability to score a big win for the business, but based on his behavioral history, that might not be realistic.

yap, that pretty much describes my life. Him: “I need help to function properly, you do xyz, I function, kids are taken care of, everyone wins.”
Me:”I would really love to help you and build my own career, while helping you”
Him:”ok, as long as it doesn’t interfere with the family (him) but why would you need to work? You will make peanuts, which we would have to pay for taxes”
Me:” I need to stand on my own, wht if something happens to you? How will I take care of kids?”
Him:” I’m not worried about that, I am building something big right now, that will take care of you and the kids”
My rational is not entirely altruistic, I have two kids to bring up, if I help him make it big, they will benefit in a long run. Yet, up to now, it’s all speculation and paper rich philosophy. He is very highly ambitious, so when he was bought out by a public company, and given shares, he considered himself (going public). Not so fast. The shares are flacruating and are staying consistently low, he isn’t able to sell without driving the price further down. He is keen on chasing the mirages, and gets upset when I direct his attention to inconsistencies.

[snowglobe]

Well... .you know it will get worse if you don't call his bluff... or figure out if it's real.

Right?  You understand that the longer this gets entrenched... .it is tougher to "un-entrench"

Very much like boundaries... .there is not an option where you get a boundary and the world jumps for joy.

He won't like this... just like he didn't like the "phone thing"... .yet how did that turn out.

Please... remove the details.

Do you want to continue "enabling" his threats... or not? 

Granted... .this is coming from a guy that "doesn't do threats".  I just don't. 

For instance... .if my wife is disrespectful... .my wallet stays closed.  If she apologizes and seems sincere... .it's very likely something will get worked out for her.

If my wife threatens me to get something... .I have yet to ever be part of "getting her" what she threatened me about.

And... .threats have pretty much disappeared from my relationship. 

FF

Can you illustrate it with example relevant in my setuation?

[snowglobe]

Snowglobe, you're getting some great advice from formflier, Notwendy, and Cat Familiar.  Let me emphasize a couple of things... .

Completing your degree is crucial.  It will be empowering, help you envision an independent future, and ease your concerns about financial abandonment.  Is your commitment solid?  Am I right that you have four more courses to take?  Are you saying that you are going to take all four online or just one or two?  Can you still graduate from your existing degree program at your existing university?

The idea of Alanon seems to resonate with your supporters on this thread, and for good reason.  In order to be successful, you need to do something different, add a tool.  Until you add more support and tools, you are going to be stuck.  Let me ask something big of you.  In the next two weeks, find and attend three different Alanon meetings to get a feel for them.  Would you be willing to sign up to do this for yourself?

WW

Dear @Wentworth,
Indeed, I only have 4 more credits to complete and I’m done. For the rime being the online courses would have to do, and yes, they would count towards the degree from the university I normally attend. I completely agree on new skills and tools to adapt, hence the reason for inline DBT program which I’m currently working in. It will provide both, personal validation and career growth, as psych is my major, ironically. I will look into attending alanon in the area I currently stay in, and report back to you.

[snowglobe]

I've followed your story Snowglobe and have a couple of questions for you to think on.

Would the reality of him womanising for real be worse in your view than him repeatedly expressing the desire to do so, and why?

Investing your time and effort into getting stronger and less dependent on him will reduce the impact he can have on you and your children. It can also save them from repeating the same types of relationships in their lives by showing them that you value yourself. This is an important lesson for our kids. I now teach my son that it's important to be kind and that starts with being kind to ourselves. Please take on board the excellent advice in this thread. You CAN do this 

Love and light x

 

@HQ thank you for your questions,
Him going through with threats is ultimately the violation of my boundary that were set from day one. This is the hill that I will ultimately die on. If he added infidelity into the mix, that is already dysfunctional, regardless of what he does thereafter it will ultimately end the relationships for me. It will force me into doing the things that I don’t want to do, so in a way, my approach is “errorless teaching”, he isn’t given a chance to “get it wrong”. Me working towards my degree, while simultaneously juggling is a way of getting “on my feet”

[snowglobe]

From where I'm sitting... I'm sure... .do you want to know?  Do you want to guess?

FF

Would rather hear it from you, I think you have a good view on my setuation by now

[formflier]

Dear @Wentworth,
Indeed, I only have 4 more credits to complete and I’m done. 

4 credits... that's two classes... or one big class right?

How many credits was the class you dropped?

Is that dropped class in the math of only 4 credits to go?

How long have you "only had 4 credits left"?  Your hubby is aware of this math... right?

FF

[formflier]

Would rather hear it from you, I think you have a good view on my setuation by now

Ok... I'm going to be direct and tell you "what it appears like" and then I'm going to make some educated guesses about "why" and "motivation"

So... .stay big picture with me... .


There are some people... when you look at their life... .time and time again they "rescue defeat from the jaws of victory"

You say you want to be independent... .have a degree... get your own job... so threats won't work anymore.  That's reasonable... that's a solid plan.  I and many other have agreed with that plan, the many times it has been proposed.

You had the classes... you had an "agreement" with your hubby to go back and do the course/exam... and then "poof"... .defeat was rescued from the jaws of victory.  My guess is that you could have gotten the four credits over the summer.  Now... .you likely have to wait for the fall... .and when something happens then, you can always wait until the spring.

I suspect this pattern has happened many times on this and other issues.

The part I would hope you reflect on, so we can all understand, is how or why on certain occasions you let victory happen.  You stand up and don't let him further hack your phone... .the threats go away... .his attitude changes... .and then you go back to "enabling" or whatever we call it.

"more often than not" you seem to "enable".  Yet sometimes you don't.  I'm not aware of a single instance where you stood up to him and he followed through on a threat (not talking about "in the moment stuff"

So... .what can we do to help you "find the person that stands up to him"?  What can you do to find that person?

4 credits... .and you dropped the course.  It's not my course and my life... but that's painful for me to write.

I said I would discuss motivation but I'm thinking I'm going to pass for now.  Why do you think you do it? 

I'm in your corner... .we all are.   I'm rooting for you!

FF

[snowglobe]

4 credits... that's two classes... or one big class right?

How many credits was the class you dropped?

Is that dropped class in the math of only 4 credits to go?

How long have you "only had 4 credits left"?  Your hubby is aware of this math... right?

FF

To be exact it I have 4 major related courses to take, each course is worth 3 credits= 12 credits to graduate.  I have dropped a course that is worth 3 credits, which was supposed to go forwards those 12 credits towards my graduation, leaving me exactly in the same spot I have been stuck in. When I said “4 credits left, I meant 4 course left”, it’s been happening since last fall. A year exactly, last course I successfully completed was summer school of last year. Throughout this year I have been dropping courses. My hubby is very much aware of this, he isn’t stopping me, according to him, yet, in his actions and behaviour he is making it difficult, if not impossible to be successful

[Harley Quinn]

Due to reaching it's size limit, this thread has now been locked and is continued in the following thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=325906.0