Tips on Couples Therapy

[alreadygold]

Quick Background:

• Male 50. Married 20+ years with Kids 20-13
  Years of of BP abuse that just seemed normal for both kids and I.  Any and all of it.  99% of guys would have left by now. 
  Her--recently had a mental break--possibly medication reaction, CPTSD, or Biploar...undiagnosed. Severe paranoia, God talking to her, FBI monitoring her
  Spent a (voluntary) week at a mental hospital...no diagnosis after a break with reality during church where 911 was called.
  Read her transcripts and the "lies" I told the mental hospital and will never trust me again.
  4 months of barely speaking to me at home and staying locked in room most of the time because she feels unsafe around me...
  She sits in the back seat of the car if we go somewhere with the kids...
  Projecting daily that I bully her, abuse her, etc. etc.   She is a master manipulator.
  She has started individual therapy and her therapist "confirms my abuse"
  Wont do Family therapy, and said she would set up Couples Therapy. All of the abuse (without the kids input) is her word vs mine...
  Changed her mind and told me that I needed to set up Couples Therapy before 3/23 for "her timeline"
  I just set up an appointment with a therapist for a few weeks out.
  She has done a wonderful job with the kids shifting things away from her abuse and mental break and onto me....

So that's the background.  I am fully aware that couples therapy is mostly a fools errand for undiagnosed BPD...but feel should at least try it, but also feel we are past the point of no return.  Don't want her to be able to claim I did not participate in therapy when she suggested it.  No idea how to proceed with a therapist as she has already stated that she will leave if I start telling the therapist my lies.     Any suggestions on how to approach?     Is pointing out her unhealthy and abusive actions even worth it?  I have pages of nasty texts that she has sent me that are completely unhinged.... Bring up the fact the kids don't want to interact with her unless there is no other option?  I have notes from her mental stay and timeline of events.  All of these things we have discussed previously, and she just denies and projects everything onto me....ANY advice on an approach with a therapist is appreciated.

[ForeverDad]

She has started individual therapy and her therapist "confirms my abuse"

Who said that?  Her therapist?  Or was it her claiming what her therapist said?

Reality check... A good therapist will be very cautious about speaking about someone without assessing him/her first.  If you haven't met or been assessed by her therapist then almost surely her T did NOT say that.

One of our members here remarked that he knew when his spouse was lying... when she opened her mouth.  Blunt but rings true.

ANY advice on an approach with a therapist is appreciated.

While a couples therapist meets with the couple, does the therapist also have some sessions separately?  If so, then you could bring facts (texts, recordings, etc) with you that can't be obfuscated.  If not, then you could do the same but with knowledge that your spouse will get enraged and worse.  Also, she would now know what facts you have been gathering and is likely to ramp up her blaming and blame shifting.

As in, How dare you prove me wrong, I will make sure you look worse than me, regardless what facts you have!

I agree, couples counseling and family counseling are the way to go to repair and rebuild, but if that is not within the realm of possibility...

[alreadygold]

Correct--that is what SHE said the therapist said.  She told them she shared videos she has taken of me (she records me during various interactions around the house).   Usually when it involves things like where did the $200 you cashed out of the bank go...claiming financial abuse, etc.

I have a second possible therapist set up, one that is supposed to have more knowledge of BPD, but not sure if they have openings that will work.

[CravingPeace]

Correct--that is what SHE said the therapist said.  She told them she shared videos she has taken of me (she records me during various interactions around the house).   Usually when it involves things like where did the $200 you cashed out of the bank go...claiming financial abuse, etc.

It doesn't matter what she says she told her therapist. It's nearly 100% a lie. Therapists do not diagnose people they have not met....

My ex said her therapist said I was a narcissist Financial abuser... I worked, and my ex spent everything I earned. And raged when I asked her to budget because I was too controlling.

Our marriage therapist who met us both, and had one on ones with us both, told me she has BPD and is abusing me. Guess who was more qualified to judge!

If she has BPD marriage therapy is pointless unless you find someone masters and above, who has experience doing psych evals.

SO funny thing even though she told me her therapists thinks I am NPD and abusive. She still drives past the marriage therapists office and sticks her fingers up at the office (my kids told me), as she said the marriage therapist made us get divorced.

If she really was told I was a Narc and abusive why would she want to be married to me? She knows its a lie and probably knows she is the problem but can't or won't accept it.

[alreadygold]

So do I point blank note that I feel that she has a mental illness and needs help and these are the abusive things we are experiencing?  Or do i just sit back and let the therapist talk and respond?    Most of the abuse/manipulation has such a long drawn out story behind it...it almost feels impossible to explain it to someone.

[EyesUp]

My suggestion is to step back and ask yourself what you hope to get out of this process.  And from there, determine how - or if - to be candid with the therapist.

e.g.,
"I believe my W is unwell, and this is confirmed by her case history.  Nonetheless, I remain committed to her and to the marriage for reasons x, y, z (or no reason at all).  I'm seeking help to bring stability to our dynamic, and willing to change how I behave in order to do it"

or

"My W is unwell, however we share kids.  My primary concern is ensuring their wellbeing, either by stabilizing the dynamic with my W, or by identifying another way to move forward while putting the best interest of the kids front and center"

or

(you fill in this part.... )


My point is:  You may have a better outcome if you have a specific outcome in mind.  Not easy, but food for thought.

Finding the right practitioner with a particular goal in mind can be nuanced. 

Therapy often fails, not only because the challenges are significant, but also because therapists are like plumbers... "yeah, I can fix that for you... for $300/hr" - even when they have no formal training or prior experience with the antique Italian marble backsplash you're committed to preserving...   we do better when we ask for help with that specific backsplash than when we ask "can you fix a sink?"   Same for therapy.

Do you have a resource that has experience working with other couples in a situation like yours?  i.e., one spouse has been recently hospitalized and may be suffering from an ongoing acute episode of sorts...   candidly, some therapists may tell you that now is not the time to engage a couples process.

Hope this is helpful in some way.  Hang in there!

[CravingPeace]

In my case. I just stayed calm and let her undo herself. It took the therapist a few sessions to see the inconsistent stories. But not everyone has been so lucky I note. Sometimes BPDs can be very persuasive. The therapist noted my wife left feeling all happy with herself after berating me for a session, I was shaking.

[alreadygold]

Thanks for the replies.  She is a Master manualiter.   If it were an Olympic sport, she would be a Gold Medalist.

I have called her out on pretty much all the bad/unhealthy/abusive behavior in the past at some point, and she has her "go to" reasons excuses that she had already believed into existence, so there is some story that usually involves me being the cause that she has already crafted that from past painful experience will get down to  he said/she said as her out...

Now that the kids are older, they see it...but I have no idea how/if/when their being a third party witness will ever change anything.  To this point--it has not..and she is not allowing family therapy...

[ForeverDad]

she is not allowing family therapy...

As much as we hate the thought to ending the marriage - I know I did at first - there are some positives with divorce.  Positives?  Yes.  One is that judges are generally favorable to counseling.  While it will not force counseling, it will usually support it if one parent requests it and the other parent refuses.  So the judge can be the tie-breaker if you seek counseling for the kids.

[alreadygold]

I should have been more clear.  She is OK for counselling...just wont be present for family therapy with the kids to tell what they have been through. 

[PeteWitsend]

In my case. I just stayed calm and let her undo herself. ...

I basically did the same thing.  We went to three different counselors. 

The first was more of a "coach" as in he tried to calm things down and get us to see the positives in our relationship.  He did not delve into deeper issues I thought warranted by some of BPDxw's really unhinged accusations and insults about my family and I, and when BPDxw started yelling or raising her voice, he didn't assert himself.  We stopped going to see him when we moved to another state. 

Counselor #2 was terrible, and I considered very unprofessional... BPDxw had been seeing him individually, and he didn't consider it a conflict of interest to see us together.  He also asked me to proofread his "book" he was writing for couples (!!!).  He did not offer to pay me to do this!  I stopped going after he just sat there while BPDxw screamed at me when I tried to tell the counselor what I thought the problems in our marriage were.  I said he was unprofessional and unhelpful and I found the sessions only resulted in more conflict.

Counselor #3 was better.  I selected her, based on her resume and years of experience.  I think we went to 2-3 sessions before BPDxw screamed at the counselor (!!!) and refused to go back.  Then went online and left a bunch of nasty reviews about her.  What did the counselor do?  She pointed out that BPDxw's complaints and demands from me - e.g. she said she would only stop accusing me of cheating on her in front of family and kids when I proved I "loved her enough" - were not objective or possible to meet. 

I later tried to follow up with the counselor, and we exchanged VMs, but never had a discussion.  I filed for divorce a couple months later, and moved on. 

[PeteWitsend]

Couples therapy is really like trying to use a band-aid to close a gaping wound.  and if one or both of the parties has serious mental issues, such as a behavioral disorder, I think it's more or less useless, and can be outright harmful if the pwBPD is allowed to dominate the sessions, or they only serve to generate more conflict.

I have occasionally read accounts here where the therapist takes the non-disordered party aside and clues them in that there are deeper issues present than can be resolved in therapy.  That's maybe the best possibly outcome. 

I do have married friends that have found couples therapy helpful, but in both of those cases, neither party has a behavioral disorder, as far as I know. 

[CravingPeace]

Counselor #3 was better.  I selected her, based on her resume and years of experience.  I think we went to 2-3 sessions before BPDxw screamed at the counselor (!!!) and refused to go back.  Then went online and left a bunch of nasty reviews about her.  What did the counselor do?  She pointed out that BPDxw's complaints and demands from me - e.g. she said she would only stop accusing me of cheating on her in front of family and kids when I proved I "loved her enough" - were not objective or possible to meet. 

I love hearing similar stories, it's reassuring. Mine did the same, refused to go back and now blames the counselor for our divorce! My ex told a previous therapist she shouldn't have to say what she needed if I loved her I would know.... Therapist corrected her that wasn't fair, she refused to go back to that one too... Very happy if I was being told I was wrong, or should handle things differently, but any criticism her way, a full 100% meltdown.

It's only ever worth doing therapy with a BPD, if you get a very very good therapist who knows about PDs and is trained in diagnosing them. But I say its worth it, as it's then worth it for you as you get confirmation you are not the problem. If you get a bad one you will be blamed for her victim stories so it's high risk.

[PeteWitsend]

I love hearing similar stories, it's reassuring. Mine did the same, refused to go back and now blames the counselor for our divorce! My ex told a previous therapist she shouldn't have to say what she needed if I loved her I would know.... Therapist corrected her that wasn't fair, she refused to go back to that one too... Very happy if I was being told I was wrong, or should handle things differently, but any criticism her way, a full 100% meltdown.

It's only ever worth doing therapy with a BPD, if you get a very very good therapist who knows about PDs and is trained in diagnosing them. But I say its worth it, as it's then worth it for you as you get confirmation you are not the problem. If you get a bad one you will be blamed for her victim stories so it's high risk.

I don't know what my motivation was for even going to the #3 therapist.  I had by that time reached out anonymously on various message boards (including this one) explaining BPDxw's behavior and what precipitated it, and the consensus seemed to be that if she wasn't BPD, she was on the spectrum, and her behavior was way over the line of what was warranted or justified by the things she was claiming to be upset about. 

So I didn't have any hopes the therapy would succeed; I guess I just wanted some reassurance it wasn't me, and her behavior would've been shocking to anyone else who could see it for what it was, rather than the manipulative way BPDxw had learned to portray it. 

I'll add, it wasn't just the screaming-at-the-therapist part that was a problem; when we attended sessions, I came in with specific examples of behavior that I didn't like and wanted to change.  Like for example, I brought up how when I checked my work email during the day, she got enraged that I was looking at my phone, demanded to know who I was talking to, and before I could even get my wits about me to answer, was practically snarling in my face and slammed a door in it. 

What was her response?  I would characterize it as a rant, but generally a rushed recital of everything I did during our 5 years marriage, or that my mom or my aunt said that she didn't like, or the behavior of one of my friends one time we went out many years before that, all out of chronological order, and all with her special "spin" on each event. 

I could see the therapist's eyes glaze over trying to write this all down and parse between the lines to see if there was anything she could identify as a real issue. 

[CravingPeace]

Like for example, I brought up how when I checked my work email during the day, she got enraged that I was looking at my phone, demanded to know who I was talking to, and before I could even get my wits about me to answer, was practically snarling in my face and slammed a door in it. 

Lol she would rant on and on about me ALWAYS being on my phone and NEVER giving her attention. So I stopped using my phone and tried to talk. She wasn't interested and was often on her phone......

She complained that I didn't seem interested on dates near the end, I wasn't engaging etc etc. You know what, after 12 years of pretty sustained blame shifting, projection, emotional melt downs when we would go for family walks like the sun was in the wrong angle for her photos, I had just had enough. I was burned out, so I accept I wasn't the most engaging near the end. I guess I just didn't love the person that had caused me so much pain over the years while blaming me for it. I had become educated and realized I had been abused, a marriage therapist telling me I was being abused was the last straw. So that is the good that can come of a decent marriage therapist. If she has BPD no amount of couples therapy will fix the relationship, she needs 10 years of DBT first and to want it!

[ForeverDad]

One of our most prolific posters some 15+ years ago was JoannaK.  She wrote that even if persons do work to attain some recovery from BPD then they would not be the same persons as before and there was a real possibility the relationship would not survive or be restarted, one or both had changed that much.

The point is that even if both worked diligently on restoring normalcy to the relationship, it was still no guarantee to relationship had a future.

[kells76]

Hi alreadygold, and another from me.

From your intro, it sounds like you two are in a very difficult, very painful place in your marriage -- possibly with the criticism, contempt, and defensiveness that John Gottman describes in his theory of communication factors contributing to relational breakdown. That's hard stuff, and then you have kids involved, too, which adds a whole other layer of challenge.

I am fully aware that couples therapy is mostly a fools errand for undiagnosed BPD...but feel should at least try it, but also feel we are past the point of no return.  Don't want her to be able to claim I did not participate in therapy when she suggested it.

Am I following that you're basically in an "it's over" mindset, but feel you should try MC so that your W will not blame you for not going? Are there any other reasons you have for trying MC?

No idea how to proceed with a therapist as she has already stated that she will leave if I start telling the therapist my lies.     Any suggestions on how to approach?     Is pointing out her unhealthy and abusive actions even worth it?  I have pages of nasty texts that she has sent me that are completely unhinged.... Bring up the fact the kids don't want to interact with her unless there is no other option?  I have notes from her mental stay and timeline of events.  All of these things we have discussed previously, and she just denies and projects everything onto me....ANY advice on an approach with a therapist is appreciated.

Often, when BPD is in the mix, we think we're stuck in "either-or" decisions. "Either X, or Y" -- no other options. "Either I tell the therapist the truth, or I have to shut up and do nothing". "Either I point out what she's doing, or I'm a doormat".

pwBPD, in order to get their huge emotional needs met, often seem to "set up" situations where we feel - we think - we only have two options. (That's never really the case, but it seems that way).

We don't have to be stuck in that either-or thinking. It's good that you're asking about how to approach therapy in a high conflict relationship -- because there are middle ways. It's kind of like if you're on the highway, and you think the only options are speeding forward or having to suck it up and turn around 180, when actually, the most effective options are "perpendicular" -- not either or.

I'm interested to hear what you think about EyesUp's idea here:

My suggestion is to step back and ask yourself what you hope to get out of this process.  And from there, determine how - or if - to be candid with the therapist.

e.g.,
"I believe my W is unwell, and this is confirmed by her case history.  Nonetheless, I remain committed to her and to the marriage for reasons x, y, z (or no reason at all).  I'm seeking help to bring stability to our dynamic, and willing to change how I behave in order to do it"

or

"My W is unwell, however we share kids.  My primary concern is ensuring their wellbeing, either by stabilizing the dynamic with my W, or by identifying another way to move forward while putting the best interest of the kids front and center"

or

(you fill in this part.... )

My point is:  You may have a better outcome if you have a specific outcome in mind. Not easy, but food for thought.

There are no right or wrong answers for what you hope to get from the process, so if you want to share those here, that can help you get clarity on how to interact in therapy.

...

Something else important to know is that many, many members have experienced feeling deeply invalidated and unheard in their BPD relationships. Unseen, unheard, and unvalued. When we feel unseen/unheard/invalidated, we both desperately seek experiences of being seen/heard/validated, and we often have a very low bar for what will send us into defensive/"but she ____" mode. It's understandable (I've experienced it too)... just not super effective with us achieving our hopes and goals.

As you reflect on your relationship and how you feel right now, how would you "score" how seen, heard, and validated you felt? From 0 (never, not at all) to 5 (sometimes, but unpredictable) to 10 (all the time)?

That will be important to know about yourself, because sometimes we go into therapy/counseling/mediation with deep needs to be seen, heard, agreed with, etc. If that urge is in play, it can impact our decision making.

All that to say -- again, there are no right or wrong answers about what you "should" want out of MC, what your goals "should" be, etc. What is really important is you understanding where you're coming from  and what you want out of the process. Once that's clear to you, it can be easier to "go with the process" and have some patience with how the T paces things. I can almost 100% guarantee that MC will not progress as fast as you want, and that it may seem like the MC is "taking your W's side". Those are features, not bugs, of the process. If the T doesn't get real buy-in from both participants then therapy can't move forward or be effective. You may have to sit thru sessions where it seems like the T is "just agreeing with everything your W says". I'd encourage you to be patient, ask respectfully if you can also have a similar session too, and really listen to understand if the T is agreeing or validating -- two very different approaches. Agreeing would be like "Oh yes, alreadygold definitely did that", vs validating would be "that would feel hurtful to experience that". One is saying "yes, that happened", and the other is saying "yes, it would feel that way (if that happened)". Important distinction.

This will not be easy, but we'll be here for you. Keep us posted on how it goes.

[kells76]

Had one more thought here at work  

Don't want her to be able to claim I did not participate in therapy when she suggested it.

It can be both frightening and liberating to realize that we have zero control over what someone else perceives, thinks, feels, or claims.

It's frightening, because we'd hope that if we do something, others will say "yes, he did that", and if we didn't do something, others will say "correct, he didn't do that". If BPD is in play, then because it's a serious, impactful mental illness, there are no guarantees that the pwBPD will remember, perceive, feel, or state things the way that we remember. You could go to therapy and participate fully and she could still claim to others "he never really went, he never really did it, he never really participated" because the mental illness of BPD is that impactful.

It's freeing, because it releases us from a feeling that "if I just did everything right, if I can prove I was there, if I just tried harder, she'd finally see".

There's nothing you can do (or not do) to ensure that she won't claim you didn't participate.

In a sense, that brings you the freedom to choose to be in therapy for your own reasons. Making sure she thinks or sees something... that's focusing on her -- what does she want, what does she think, what does she feel.

What about focusing on you? What do you want? What do you think? What do you feel?

As counterintuitive as it sounds, focusing on our own well-being, and on things that are under our control, can make things "less bad" in our BPD relationships. Strange but true.

Anyway -- just some more food for thought. This is a hard place you're in mentally, physically, and emotionally, so it's good to see you're still coming back here and getting support. I've been here nearly 10 years and it's been a lifesaver.

[PeteWitsend]

...


It's freeing, because it releases us from a feeling that "if I just did everything right, if I can prove I was there, if I just tried harder, she'd finally see".

There's nothing you can do (or not do) to ensure that she won't claim you didn't participate.

In a sense, that brings you the freedom to choose to be in therapy for your own reasons. Making sure she thinks or sees something... that's focusing on her -- what does she want, what does she think, what does she feel.

...

I'll add, when deciding whether to do or not do something with a pwBPD (including split up or divorce) this same lesson also applies.  One may be tempted to base their decisions on whether or not the pwBPD will find them "fair" or will refrain from criticizing you to others.  But the reality is, they are going to do these things anyway, and would continue to do them regardless of what you decide, so make the decision that's best for your needs and leave them to howl in the proverbial void. 

[alreadygold]

Update:

She vetoed (NO) the couples therapist appt i set up...looked up the info from the group online and said "they have none of my requirement...I will not be attending". Which I knew would happen.  Did this over a nasty text of course.   I told her I was keeping the appointment and she could come or not. 

Then yesterday, one of the therapists I had contacted for individuals therapy for dealing with a BPD spouse (but had no openings) contacted me and said she had an opening for the week after next.   We are going to speak on the phone this afternoon and I am going to see if she does couples counselling..and if so, switch to her and give that option.   I've already given her a lot of the background.  I'm simply going to ask when we speak that she be aware during our sessions that i feel wife has severe BPD and see how she would approach that....possibly with the nuance noted above.   

I don't have much hope that this session will even come together, but at least its a chance at a better shot than a random therapist with no background at all that increases the chance of manipulation.

Also contacted an attorney yesterday for the first time...

[kells76]

Then yesterday, one of the therapists I had contacted for individuals therapy for dealing with a BPD spouse (but had no openings) contacted me and said she had an opening for the week after next.   We are going to speak on the phone this afternoon and I am going to see if she does couples counselling..and if so, switch to her and give that option.   I've already given her a lot of the background.  I'm simply going to ask when we speak that she be aware during our sessions that i feel wife has severe BPD and see how she would approach that....possibly with the nuance noted above.  

A newer modality in the last ~15 years or so is called "discernment counseling". It's for couples in your situation, where divorce is being considered but one spouse may be more "out of the marriage" than the other one.

The link had this helpful section on the three outcomes of this kind of counseling:

A discernment counselor does not make the decision for the individuals of whether to remain married or not, but instead guides the couple in developing clarity and a sound perspective so that they can make the determination.

This could be a decision to get the divorce, do marriage counseling, or keep the marriage as it is. It is important to not enter into counseling with intentions for the therapist to come to a conclusion for the marriage. Whether to terminate the marriage or move forward with it will take a willingness to be open and honest about feelings, concerns, and conflicts that exist between the couple.

The purpose of discernment counseling is not to work on intimacy or relationship issues, since most couples have already gone through marriage counseling, but to focus on whether or not divorce is the right option. Couples are encouraged to not enter counseling with high expectations for changes in their relationships or for the “leaning out” partner to have different feelings towards divorce.

Discernment counseling is to help develop clarity and perspective towards divorce before actually going through with it.

Given the conflict in your marriage, I wonder if this would be a more effective first step, than trying to jump right into traditional MC. It gives both of you the opportunity to decide: OK, do I want to keep the status quo (no changes), to try 6 months of MC, or to proceed to divorce.

Could be worth asking the T you're in contact with if she has any experiences with that approach.

Whether you two stay together as-is, attempt MC, or divorce, it will impact your kids, especially your minor children. Finding a way to make the process "less bad" for them will be critical.

...

Also contacted an attorney yesterday for the first time...

What did the attorney have to say?

[alreadygold]

Bring $425 cash for an hour consult

[alreadygold]

So she sent me a text that she will not be attending any couples therapy with me at this time because she does not trust me with anything, period and does not trust me to be forthright and honest with the effort.   0 fo 3 with finding a therapist.   I quit.

[PeteWitsend]

Bring $425 cash for an hour consult

paying for a legal consultation to understand divorce law in my state (i.e. how 99% of divorces go) was the best money I've ever spent.  

As things deteriorated in our relationship, and the "divorce" word started to get thrown around, BPDxw was claiming she had "talked to people" about her rights, and would limit my contact with my D to 1 day a week at her discretion, "bury me" financially and a bunch of other nonsense.  I was skeptical (I learned to question everything she said by this point in our relationship), but it was still good to hear from a professional that this was all nonsense; in my state the child support guidelines were based solely on income, I would keep all the assets I owned prior to marriage 100%, and by default, I was getting WAY more time with my daughter than BPDxw was claiming, and there was nothing she could do about that.  

[CravingPeace]

I was getting WAY more time with my daughter than BPDxw was claiming, and there was nothing she could do about that. 

My ex also told me how awful it would be for me. I'd be working hard while she stayed in the house and I would barely see the kids.

Not true, not all of it anyway! But she did work out the only way to limit my contact with the kids was if I  had domestically abused them. So of course she went there all sorts of nonsense accusations. Worst experience of my life but its nearly all dealt with.

[Pook075]

Update:

She vetoed (NO) the couples therapist appt i set up...looked up the info from the group online and said "they have none of my requirement...I will not be attending". Which I knew would happen.  Did this over a nasty text of course.   I told her I was keeping the appointment and she could come or not.  

Hello and welcome to the family!  Sorry I'm late to the party, but I didn't think I had anything useful to add because I never actually made it to couples counseling with my ex wife.  It is feeling more and more relevant though to how your story is unfolding.

My wife asked for counseling, I made an appointment, and then she said that she wouldn't go to who I chose.  So I tried a different counselor and she couldn't decide- yes, no, maybe so.  It was a different answer each time.  Then I asked if she'd meet with her pastor (we went to different churches).  She said yes, only to back out and flat out refuse to talk to her pastor about anything.

See the pattern here?

I hope you make it to counseling for yourself since that provides so much clarity and affirmation.  It can also save your marriage if that's the route you decide to go.  But don't hold your breath on her following through; if she doesn't like your choice, then ask her to choose who you visit.  That way it's off your plate and not a point of contention.

[alreadygold]

doesn't look like counselling will happen.

She sent me a text over the weekend saying "I'm done-41% of my retirement, 41% of my income for 12 years and split the house/assets and we both walk away".   

Not sure where she came up with these numbers.  No mention of the kids....(yikes) She can work...just has chosen not to.....  my consult with a lawyer basically said 50/50 split of everything including the custody of the kids and some alimony (a big chunk) is probably the best I'm going to do unless i want to fight it---can probably win, but will be extremely expensive.   

[ForeverDad]

Of course your spouse is offering a very favorable settlement - for her.  That is to be expected.  When first shifting to a legal stance, the disordered spouse is usually far too entitled.  Your experienced lawyer will tell you what the typical range of outcomes will be.

However, upon consultation with your lawyer you may decide to counter offer with a reasonable settlement, perhaps with a little extra as incentive to quicker settlement.  Any generosity should be combined with an expiration time, not open-ended without reciprocation.

Your youngest is less than 5 years from adulthood.  So that caps predictable child support - which was not mentioned - at 4-5 years.  (Beware of a settlement where you agree to let mother decide major issues - primary custody - and you pay for it all.  One member years ago stated he made that mistake and his ex promptly moved the child from public school with minimal expenses to an expensive private school.  It didn't matter to their judge who ruled, "Well, you agreed to it.")

Alimony... You've been married over two decades yet 12 years alimony is surely excessive.  If in the USA, most states view alimony as assistance to the disadvantaged spouse to transition to post-marriage life.  Does it take 12 years to transition?  No, typically alimony is no more than half the marriage and usually much less.  (By the end of my divorce I had been married 18 years.  The lawyers agreed to 2 months alimony for each year, so my alimony was 3 years, a reasonable transition time.)

Spouse not working... Your kids are teens and adults.  At all the early lawyer/client meetings your spouse should be advised to seek a job, perhaps with some career prep as well.  That should be a constant refrain, no free rides.

Expect that you will need to split the equity of shared ownership (homes, vehicles, etc), and possibly accounts too.  A warning about retirement accounts, follow the QDRO rules for how it is done.  Never write a check and hand it to her, or else you'll pay taxes and early withdrawal penalties if any.  The correct way is for the retirement companies to create a similar account for your spouse by direction of court order and only then is the money transferred.  That way if your ex withdraws funds, she is responsible for taxes and penalties if any.

Probably best to resist paying some of your income.  What happens if you lose your job then how would you pay.  She's trying to double-dip with both alimony and a portion of your future income.

Your spouse may expect you to pay all her legal expenses.  Remember, entitlement.  (Legal expenses are vastly higher than court costs.)  Ponder that carefully since that may imply you'll be funding her legal firestorm.  In my divorce my ex was very litigious but she paid her legal bills from her marital equity.  (We were not rich.)

[PeteWitsend]

doesn't look like counselling will happen.

She sent me a text over the weekend saying "I'm done-41% of my retirement, 41% of my income for 12 years and split the house/assets and we both walk away".  

Not sure where she came up with these numbers.  No mention of the kids....(yikes) She can work...just has chosen not to.....  my consult with a lawyer basically said 50/50 split of everything including the custody of the kids and some alimony (a big chunk) is probably the best I'm going to do unless i want to fight it---can probably win, but will be extremely expensive.  

She most likely has already seen an attorney, and also been going online and posting in forums about how terrible you were to her, and what could she get from you.  That's where those numbers come from.  

If I were you, I would get a 2nd and 3rd opinion from other local attorneys; if you have to pay a consultation fee for each, it might be worth it.  

In my experience, a lot of family law attorneys just don't get it when it comes to BPD.  They listen to everything you're saying, and will very likely tell you they've dealt with cases like yours, but you can almost tell in the back of their head they're simply doing the math on how much they'll make off your case.  

You'll need to be your own advocate, and to that end, I concur with all ForeverDad's advice above.  

Your attorney is also likely proposing advice which may be sound in practice, but based on the assumption that your spouse is "normal," i.e. is going to go off and behave in good faith, and gradually "get over it" so to speak, which is to say coparent to minimize conflict and do what's best for the kids. With a BPD ex, that's just not the case.

Any rights she has, she will likely try to leverage into more $$$ for herself over time.  So, if custody is 50/50, but she has the right to designate the home, or the school, expect her to come up with reasons she needs more money, or will have to sell the home and move farther away, etc. etc.    

[PeteWitsend]

Also, I'd note that BPDers are often not very good with money (their emotional immaturity is reflected in a spendthrift attitude; when they see something they want, they go buy it).  And over the last few years, the cost of living has grown significantly, yet our salaries and wages have not kept pace, so keep that in mind when you negotiate.  This may be even more of an issue with your spouse if she hasn't been working at all, and has little idea what she might make, and how much it's going to cost to pay the bills.