BPDFamily.com

Hello all,

My ex fiance 28f broke up with me 32m about a month ago and we're still living together.

Our relationship is very complicated and she has a complex mental and physical health history and we'd gone through a load of ups and downs. But throughout it all and I know it sounds cliche but I never doubted she was my soulmate and we'd spend the rest of our lives together.

She was diagnosed with BPD in her teens and heavily medicated for most of her life up to around 25/26. She's been in and out of therapy and made so many leaps and bounds by herself which I'm so proud of her for. She's never felt that BPD sits right with her fully and she's recently got a diagnosis of ADHD which in her head almost overwrites the BPD, however I don't think this is the case and there's elements of her personality and behavior that comes from both.

For the 6 years we've been together I've been there for her through some of the toughest times and always said id be the stable person in her life. She however seems to have the belief that people don't care about her or her needs and people constantly do what they think is best for her and not necessarily what she wants etc.

The first time she left the relationship we ended up breaking up for about two weeks and then got back together. In that time she had some parties but not much else.

The second time was a lot more chaotic. I found out she'd been cheating on me and and her behavior became more and more erratic where I was worried for her safety. We split up for just over a month, got back together and then broke up again until she wrote me a letter on Christmas day saying she was sorry for every doubting us and I was everything she wanted.

Fast forward 3 years and she's decided to break up with me again. It's been about a month but this time it seems different. She's not drinking, she's managing to eat, go to work , sleeping regularly etc and it really does seem like shes thinking this all through and I'm proud of her. However I'm really struggling with it and the thought of us not being together when we felt that strongly about each other is a difficult one to process

She ended things and said she'd been thinking about it for a while. She's said it's purely for selfish reasons and that she hasn't fallen out of love with me and that's why it's been such a tough decision to come to. She feels like every year she has some kind of mental health crisis and she needs to not be in a relationship or have any responsibilities to or for anyone and that's what she needs. So she can make mistakes and not have to try and put in place tons of steps to prevent me or others with decisions she makes.

She said she's sat and weighed up all the good points of our relationship and this feeling that she needs to be alone and even though she knows she would be happy with me this other feeling is outweighing everything. We've had a few chats about things and she says that she wishes she could put our heads together to make me understand that it's absolutely nothing to do with me or us. She also feels I want chats all the time and she has nothing more to bring to them right now and get agitated to the point where she angrily says "PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) it let's stay together then" or that she just wants to kill herself rather than deal with all this.

I'm just struggling to be in the same house as her. Apart from things like watching TV, eating / sleeping together and kissing each other goodbye in the mornings our interactions are almost normal. We talk, we joke, we laugh. She's out of the house most of the day which makes it seem like shes just busy and I'll see her later. I'm just really struggling to accept that it's over and it all just feels wrong. Even her goodbye to me when she's off out feels rushed and cold and it's tough to be around that.

She has nowhere to go and can't move back into her parents yet as it's not suitable for her right now and needs some adjustments but there's no timeframe on that. Shes said she wants me in her life and wants us to have a friendship but I really don't think I can do that even though I'd want to. There's been no further mention of moving out timelines and today when I asked for a catch up soon and questioned why she's sounding a bit more off than usual she mentioned that she's not sure where I'm at with everything as per our last conversation she thought I was okay for being friends. It seems a bit wild to me that one conversation could just solve everything in her opinion even though we said we'd need multiple chats to flesh out what that would look like / what we'd both get from it without getting hurt.

She's even suggested there could be a time where shes down living at her parents (5 min walk away) and she comes round and we have nights together as friends watching TV or doing things together maybe once a week and we scale them visits up or down depending on how they're making us feel. But to me it makes it seem like she wants absolutely everything and I'll just be there always wanting a relationship with her.

I'm not really sure what I'm after posting this to be honest. Maybe people to rant to, maybe some advice. I've just never had a relationship where despite everything we've gone through I've never doubted my love for her. I'm just struggling so much day to day at the moment.

Any advice would be appreciated. I am still hopeful that one day things will work out.

im so sorry to hear you are going through this. I know how you feel the confusion can be awful and really take a mental toll on the partner. I have just come out of relationship with someone who has uBPD. It hurts like hell. I want mine back and seem to be having somewhat success by allowing the time but remaining close there as a friend as there is a chance she will want me back. however the risk you take is that if she starts seeing someone else you will have to watch that happen and she will still expect to be friends. that won't work as you are not really there for friendship.

As confusing as it is, she has been quite open about what she needs and why she is breaking it off, you just can't understand the turmoil in her head, no one can. I know it doesn't feel this way now but she will be telling the truth that it int you so you can be assured you are not at fault. It really is heartbreaking and feels so tragic. its probably best to move on or try the friendship in hope she come back around but like all of us partners of pwBPD you have to accept the risks and know it will lead to more heartbreak and mental turmoil. Im saying this as it's so logical however as I write it and im in a similar situation I can't even take my own advice.

you are not alone, I really feel for you brother

So instead of providing some grand advice and so forth I will just respond by saying the reason you posted what you did is that what to connect with others who may have similar experiences and can be more understanding than the typical friends and family who do not really get it. My friend you just want some support...simple as that. This is just another resource to help you on your journey and perhaps this resource helps you figure some S :cursing: out. It doesn't have to be anything more than that. Just know that we do get it here and we do understand and we do have your back.

Vent away. Ask as many questions as you need to and share as much as you want and comfortable with.

In the meantime please be kind to you and please take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

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Hi

I understand what you are going through. She's living with you, just like she would when you were romantically together, yet having to accept that you are "broken up" so you are not really together in that sense...It must be really hard for you.

Reading your post,it feels like you have always been a huge firm support to her all through her mental health challenges. At this point too, you have accepted to live with her even though she broke up because she moving back to parents is not suitable. She is "cool" being broken up because she doesn't want the "burden of relationship" at this point, and doesn't even what to chat about it without taking into consideration how that might be affecting you on the inside. Do you feel that you maybe have accepted and allowed a bit too much? I feel this because I am also the same kind, always accepting his "wishes", always being the 1st one to "rescue" him through his mental health or any other crisis. He doesn't get along with parents, i am there to support, next moment his parents are fine, i am to be blamed, that's also okay, i accept.

I am also trying to navigate and obviously i'm not any expert, but I think at times we enable a bit too much. And that gives them a msg that everything they are doing is somehow allowed and to be adjusted by us. If I were you, I would find a way such that we do not have to stay together since we broke up. Even though it might seem heart-breaking on your part, you need to gather courage to be firm because this way you send out a msg that you are not okay in this current dynamics, a dynamics where you guys are just friends and can casually watch shows with her like before without being romantically linked -- you are not okay with this, even though she might be. I have been together with him now for 18yrs, and I know this attitude that they sometimes put in --that we normally stay together without him having to take any responsibility for the relationship -- thus pushing me to handle all the responsibility of the relationship all by myself.

If she can't move out, is it possible for you to stay temporarily at some other place? Your msg to her should be clear. That we will stay apart until we have a serious chat about the future of this relationship. If she wants to pause the relationship and take a break, then how long should you wait? Let's say a month (or two*), but then she has to be the one who approaches you. If she doesn't then you will move on since you can wait in uncertainty forever. Let her take up some responsibility for the relationship.

*Note that stay away for longer times might create other challenges so be careful

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all the support and advice.

She's actually been really friendly and thoughtful which is a stark difference to last time.

She's bringing in less money because she on a phased return to work and she's actively said that she'll give me some money towards things this month as she appreciates I'm taking on most of the financial burden.

Shes still had issues with work and the other morning she was really short with me when I asked if she'd slept in.

Later when she came home she'd noticed I'd got in her favourite soft drink (this is just a habit I keep the house stocked up) and she apologized for being short and almost like an "unwanted child" walking around the house not contributing. She said that the reason she was late to work was because she was deciding "whether to call in sick, go in and face the music for being late, or shooting herself" which I know she was joking but she's obviously struggling with things. I did really appreciate the validation coming from her and said that's she's definitely wanted.

The next day (Thursday just gone) she asked if a friend could stay over on Friday (today) after a post birthday present evening out that had been booked before we broke up. She offered to drive them home instead if it wasn't okay which is something she wouldn't have usually done when this happened last time round.

I asked if we could have a chat again soon and although she's busy this weekend she offered to chat this Sunday and that we could cook a roast dinner as well which I've agreed to.

I'm not really sure what I want from this chat. My feelings haven't changed but I know her being here is stopping me from processing things as hope is constantly there for me at least.

I went out tonight on my own (Friday) to a gig. It wasn't what I expected and it was full of couples and so I left and I'm currently on the train home struggling with my emotions. I miss her being the person I contact, I miss her being my partner for so many reasons.

I am proud of her for doing what she feels she needs to do but my God I feel completely lost. I'm know 32 is young but after going from what I thought was my family for the rest of my life to this it's just hard to process.

aw, man. ugh.

its like you miss her, and yet you live with her - youre kinda surrounded by what you miss  :hug:

and having to feel the way you feel, while shes seemingly carrying on, it can kinda feel like shes a walking invalidation of what youre going through.

thats one of the hardest parts about breaking up in general. the other person seems that way, because, at least in part, they have grieved the relationship. its like being on two completely different pages.

ive got a buddy going through similar; his wife isnt bpd, but likely uADHD, shes going through some stuff, theyre considering divorce, but shes not really sure what she wants. its hard on him.

which is why, keeping your goals in mind, of getting back together, i tend to agree with losthope1234, that its okay to show some real signs of commitment to breaking up, if not for your own well being and processing.

because how do you get someone back (assuming the opportunity is available), anyway? in so many words, you re-attract them.

to someone who seems like shes "going through some stuff", the most attractive thing, really, is to have your  :cursing: together. to be rock solid. and to have clear and firm boundaries. note: i dont mean dont grieve. do grieve. but also, work to stay centered, in a hard, bad all around, situation.

incidentally, its also the best way to approach a breakup: by living it.

practically speaking (in terms of actual steps taken), im not necessarily sure what that looks like, but it more or less looks like this:


its both a win that you went, and its a win that you said hey, this is too much, and gave yourself a break from it. i remember the first gig i played, very shortly after the breakup. she was our biggest fan, and it was surreal not having her there.

take the steps necessary to signal to both her, and to yourself, that you "accept" the breakup, or more importantly, the reality of it. thats what good boundaries look like: living our values. value your grief, your peace, and your well being. let that guide your actions, broadly.

i dont mean making a show or being in her face about it. thats not a mature way to cope with a breakup, or to re-attract someone.


people who say these things, though she isnt the first (she truly sounds a lot like my buddys wife with this stuff) baffle me. but i think they say them to cope with feelings of loss, yes, but also chaos. it is self-soothing, but it is also selfish.

dont enable that. thats the best path forward (whichever direction you want this to go), the one you have control over, and it is also the most attractive move.

@RedBeard,

I went through these cycles, too. There were multiple breakups. Eventually got married. 

In my case, the cycles continued. 14 years and 3 kids later, divorced.

Looking back, nothing felt better than getting back together. The return to the familiar - it felt like safety at the time. Make up sex was generally A+. We joked once or twice that we'd break up just so that we could have make up sex...  Eventually, though, we cohabitated for almost a year leading up to separation and divorce. On some level, I understand the feeling of loss and disappointment that you must be going through, especially while cohabitating.

My suggestions are:

1) Boundaries
No matter which way things go for you, there's no upside to over-accommodating her at this point. If you don't want her to host while you're still cohab'ing, say so.  In short, it's time for boundaries, i.e., in order for this to work, she needs to demonstrate a, b, c (you need to define your own boundaries) - and then you stick to it

2) Give her space
Offers and requests to talk / check in are validation for her - you're still interested. But you already know you're still interested. The question is: Is she interested? Give her space to demonstrate this to you authentically, independently, and in a way that she can take full credit for. If she's not meeting you fully half way, give this full attention

3) Gut check
Do you want a relationship with mutual trust and commitment? What does that look like for you? How do you establish - or re-establish this? Will she value your love and forgiveness, or get stuck in some difficult-to-process shame? What does success look like for you, for her, and can you get there?

The reference to FOG is a good one - You might also read up on attachment styles. Here's a link to a relatively recent thread in which the OP discusses attachment style, and describes a need to pull their partner back...  might be worth a look:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358341.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=358341.0)

Hang in there.

If I had to guess, what you want from this chat is for someone to say what you're not saying- it's time to put yourself first.

The relationship ended, she's still there, and in many ways you're still playing the hero role as she lives her life.  Money is tight, no problem...you'll make it work.  Friends want to come over...no problem, you're the good partner.  Yet all of this is keeping you from processing what you're actually feeling and going through internally.

What matters right now, today, is for you to have enough space to process what to do next.  And that doesn't work with a roommate that you're still in love with.  It does increase the chances that romance will return to the equation, but it also increases the chances that you'll be heartbroken all over again.

I'm not saying to kick her out and take the scorched earth approach, but I do think you need to be completely honest with your feelings here.  If there's not an immediate path towards reconciling, then she should probably look for another place to live so each of you can focus on yourselves.

Also, it's okay to let her know how you feel and how hard all of this is for you emotionally.  Real men cry, real men are vulnerable...don't let Hollywood convince you otherwise.  You need time to grieve this relationship and make the right choices moving forward. 

And hey, maybe you reconcile at some point...that would be fantastic if that's what you want.  But you also have to be true to yourself today and make your own mental health a priority.

Hi all,

I'm reading every post and it's bringing me a lot of comfort and support so thank you so much.

Thank you for the guidance on setting boundaries and giving her space and the same for putting my own mental health first. It's tough as I'm an extremely emotional person and I care deeply about those I love. I'm very much a carer / looker-afterer.

An update on Sunday where we were due to have a chat:

She had a busy weekend planned. A birthday present evening out on the Friday and then a BBQ at a friend's on the Saturday. So on the Sunday we agreed to have a roast dinner and chat.

She was feeling a bit worse for wear (medical conditions etc) and so I just started cooking and listened to music. She came down and helped with a few bits and then we ate together outside. After we ate I just started asking her about things in general, she laid down and seemed a little distant. When I suggest she go in and lie down if she wasn't feeling great she said "I thought we were leading into a chat".

It seemed like she very much was dreading it and I want her to be present when we talk, I know she had a few medical results coming through on the Monday alongside a very formal meeting at work that she was anxious about. So I thought we should leave the chat for now so she could rest up and prepare for the following day.

We stayed outside and chatted about how she was going to approach the meeting, she then went off and prepared some things and later in the evening came down and sat with me to go through some things she'd prepared. We then ended up watching TV together until around 11pm.

It's a doubled edged sword because I love spending time with her and she with me. But as stated in my original message I need to remember this is what she wants whereas for me its what I want too but when I wake up the next morning I remember we're not together and I'm back to square one.

We will definitely have a chat and I think I'll approach her on Wednesday when I know she's off for two days. I think I'm going to raise the following even through its really hard for me.

I was extremely happy and content with our future but I need to try and accept that my future now doesn't have you in it and it's a real struggle for me to process that with you in the house.

She wants me in her life because I mean a lot to her and she knows I'll move mountains for her, but she needs to understand the reason I did that was because we were in a relationship and she was going to be my wife. I can't be around to do that whilst she just gets on and lives her life without the responsibilities of a relationship.

Then I want to bring up plans to move out. I've not heard any updates since we first talked about it and I don't want to go full on and suggest a date but I think I'll ask what a timeline could look like for her.

Today I started looking around and enquired about a few rentals which felt sad but I was kind of ready to take that step to at least start looking.

Honestly it's just tough. But I think she's set on the relationship being over and I'm really trying to accept that and also getting a little emotionally drained.

Thanks for all the support.

It sounds like you're handling all of this the right way.  You're leading with empathy while still realizing that you need to be true to yourself as well.   Yet you're doing it in a king, loving, patient way that's moving at her speed.

Thank you that means a lot. I think I'm handling certain bits in the right way.

I think even though it hurts, if this relationship is done then I need to be on my own.

Last night when she came in she said hello asked if the pizza on the side was leftover and then got into bed and watched TV. She didn't tell me about her day which I'd expressed interest in on the weekend and in the day and she didn't ask about mine.

I was already quite emotional today and it got the better of me where I asked how her day was and we got talking. I went into her room, sat down and we talked about it. Throughout the whole time we talked I felt like I was extremely overwhelmed and maybe I should have just left the conversation politely at that point but instead at the end I bought up why I chose not to have the chat Sunday due to her having a lot of things on. Then I asked if we could chat soon maybe Tuesday or Wednesday as I feel we need to.

She said Wednesday would be good but Tuesday could work too. But when I mentioned this she seemed deflated and when I asked why she just said that after all her medical, work and therapy appointments today she just has a load of pent up anger and anxiety, it's nothing to do with me she just has a lot going on.

I also asked if she had anything to bring to the conversation and she said no. With this I said goodnight and left the room as I was getting extremely overwhelmed. I went for a walk and felt my emotions and ended up deactivating my Facebook which has been a big step for me as I know I need to get away from social media at least to stop checking it.

For me right now its really solidifying that she doesn't want this relationship and so based on that I know I need to look after myself and just centre the chat around moving out and when that could be possible.

Again thanks for all the support. It's just a struggle accepting that she's not my future anymore and that she's not there to pick me up like I did so many times for her constantly and that really hurts

BPD exists on a spectrum.  Some are milder, less dysfunctional, and a relationship is possible though not easy.  It appears she has been in therapy over the years.  Is she still participating?  It is possible she could have both BPD and ADHD, comorbid with traits of both.

There are other cases that develop over time and minor discord becomes more extreme.  You already have one post where the cycles worsened over time... 14 years, kids and divorce.  That was my experience too.  My ex was primed for dysfunction with a childhood exposed to a bad stepfather.  I thought I'd saved her but she was increasingly cycling into distress.  After a decade we tried for a child, I thought it would make her happier see a child discover the joys of life.  Clueless me, I didn't realize having children doesn't fix serious mental health issues.  Within a few years it worsened so bad we divorced and that process was so much more complicated with the added custody and parenting issues.

You might look back over your previous break ups and identify likely triggers or traumas.  Or maybe lesser things built up over time and then found a release, which for her was to break up for a while.  Just be aware that even if you two resolve this current break up, it could happen again.  The past can be a predictor for the future unless the issues are addressed.

Hey, none of us know the future.  It's possible she moves out, realizes she made a mistake, and you have one of the greatest love stories ever told someday.  Nobody is telling you to give up here because you still love her.

The advice is almost the opposite of giving up, it's placing a bet on yourself and doing everything in your power to grow, to heal, to be the best possible you.  That not only puts you in a great position to have a more fulfilling life if you guys do reconcile, but it also puts you in a great position if the relationship fails as well. 

Either way, by betting on yourself and turning your focus there, better days are ahead.

What's that look like?  You went for a walk the other day when you felt overwhelmed- that's good stuff.  When you feel frustrated, pivot.  Find what relaxes you, calms your thinking.  Discover old hobbies or start new ones; whether it's reading a book or taking a skydiving course.  The "what" doesn't matter, as long as you're passionate about it and it begins to fill a void.

For me, I started volunteering in prison ministry shortly after the breakup.  I was there to help others, but it helped me so much more in the process because I found myself once again.  Think about what activities could give you that same peace of mind- it can be anything that gets you moving and makes you smile.  That's where you start betting on yourself.

Thanks for this.

I'm really trying to focus on myself and better myself. After chatting to some close friends I think I have a problem with low self worth which I'm going to take to my next therapy session among some other things.

We had a good chat Wednesday just gone where I explained some of the reflecting I've been doing on her feelings and my own.

I explained everything but ended it with saying if she doesn't want a relationship with me for me I would need a hard split as I don't think friendship could be an option especially as I was still fully committed to marrying her.

She at first was a little defensive about this saying something like "well you're basically saying pack my bags and that's the only option" I reinforced that this definitely isn't the case and that I'm more than happy for her to stay here until there's a plan to move back into her parents I just wanted to be kept in the loop and she provided an update on this but only that it was confusing and a struggle with her parents.

We went on to discuss how we're finding things and she discussed how she was struggling with wanting to see me and tell me things during the day and trying to work out whether that was habit or something more. We eventually came to the outcome that she said she was open to thinking about living apart but continuing a relationship. She then got a bit stressed around thinking about what that could look like in 5 or 10 years which I said let's take it slow and check in with some further conversations.

She also said "it's always going to come back to sex" (context she doesn't like intimacy due to past trauma and we only really had sex when she had something to drink after a night out etc)

I'm a very physical touch person and extremely attracted to her and although we've had discussions around this before I try to reassure her that sex isn't the only way I appreciate her intimately and I get happiness from her in loads of ways and little things we do and that she does for me.

I think I hung to the word relationship when she said it because since Wednesday I've felt slightly better than usual. I'm not sure if she's going to do a u turn when we next have a conversation but it seemed like a positive step.

This bank holiday weekend she's house-sitting for her parents and looking after her sibling so we're going to be apart for 3 nights at least.

For some extra context I messaged her mum on the same Wednesday who's been a huge support in our relationship. I'll drop the text below with some redactions due to names etc the text in question is from when my partner talked to her mum back when this happened mid march.

"Hi thanks for messaging me I’m glad you did xx this must be a super difficult time for you both and I’m really sorry

Sorry I think it cut off my last post. I'm out currently so will update and finish the post when home

i really get the sense (even more, now) that she is going through something, that youre a part of, but isnt necessarily about you. think mid-life crisis, existential, that kind of thing. shes not very in touch with her feelings, shes kind of at the mercy of them, and, above all, i think your goal is not to be at the mercy of them yourself.

that in the context of "i need a hard split", she responded by entertaining a relationship is telling. im not suggesting she intentionally said it to keep you on the hook, so to speak. i am suggesting its evidence that she is not very clear on what she wants, and may be reactive and fearful. kind of like proposing getting together to watch tv, as friends; it can be a coping thing that keeps the attachment in place in her mind, and soothes her.

the good news is it suggests something is there. shes not unattracted to or repulsed by you. shes not telling you "no, its over". it is something she entertains in her mind, which means theres a chance here, which isnt the same as a guarantee, but its something you can work with.


as i mentioned before, the path to re-attracting her/getting back together, or navigating a breakup actually look a great deal similar. in either scenario, youre going to need to dig down deep, find that strongest, best version of yourself. either it re-attracts her, or it helps you cope with the loss, but they arent at odds. navigating this, however it goes, is about working to stay centered.

its fantastic youre in therapy, thats exactly where you should be in terms of getting/staying centered. theres nothing more attractive than a rebuilt self worth, and theres no one more resilient, either.

there arent a lot of specific "moves" to be made here to re-attract her (and youre not flagging any "cut that out" behaviors) - its more about becoming it, living it; subtle.

i think the key is not to be at the mercy of the storm shes going through, dont add to it, and dont rescue her from it, and dont get "sucked into it". see it for what it is. it may be something that she simply has to work out (it happens), and hopefully in time, she will.

After my ex and I split, she brought up the exact same thing several times.  And I'd try to reassure her that I didn't care about that aspect, but she was hyper focused on it and it came from past trauma...from a relationship before me.

I can't go into too many details, but she claimed that her ex raped her.  Yet she'd also brag about all the wild places they had sex (before and after the rape) and I had no idea what to do with any of that.

Fast-forward to the start of our relationship, and we didn't have sex for months.  No problem on my end.  Yet once that started, she was the aggressor for awhile and it was because of that past trauma.  In her mind (she told me this after we split up 20+ years later), she would never give me the opportunity to take advantage of her, so she chose to be as aggressive as possible.

And I thought- wait, what?  Are you accusing me of rape?  Or that you initiated sex all those time so I couldn't rape you?

It really messed with my head for months afterwards as I came to terms with what she was actually saying.  She had an extremely unhealthy relationship with sex and it breaks my heart for her.

So even though the sex part may not be a deal-breaker for you, she's dealing with something much deeper that has roots.  My BPD daughter had similar experiences as well and it's something that we'll rarely understand.  Do not take it personally though and realize that it's not a topic you can "fix" or "work through".  This is something for her to talk about with an experienced professional.

I hate sharing any of this, but maybe it will help others put this topic into perspective.  There's likely deep-seeded trauma there that may or may not be true, but the feelings are absolutely real regardless and they leave lifetime scars.

Please note, I'm not saying my ex wife lied about anything- she cried her eyes out as she shared this with me a few years ago.  I'm simply saying that the trauma was so deep and enveloping that she didn't have any idea how to actually deal with it, and she carried it in secret our entire 23 year marriage.

Thanks for the continued advice everyone.

I agree she's definitely going through something right now and I'm trying to support her by giving her the space and independence that she needs.

Regarding the trauma in her earlier life that impacts intimacy there's definitely things there that she needs to deal with and tackle head on and I know she never has and when prompted she almost dismisses that it's a problem. I know this isn't something I can help with and it's on her to seek the help when she feels it's right to.

She's been house sitting for her parents since Friday and I think she's coming back today although I'm not totally sure on this.

It's been difficult as she only contacted me once about a delivery for her. Other than that she's left my last message unread and hasn't contacted me since. I'm a little confused as the last chat we had on Wednesday was accepting that we could think about a relationship whilst living apart (apart being a 5 minute walk down the road). But in the same breath I totally understand that she initially asked for independence and no responsibility to or for anyone so in a way this weekend has been a trial period being a part although if we were to go ahead with a relationship we would naturally be in contact more. Ive also made a point to listen and reflect on what she's saying she needs and I've not reached out to her and given her space.

I think due to caring about her deeply throughout the 6 year relationship I had a tendency to try and listen and comply with her needs however I would also do what I thought was best for her. This I think gave her the impression that I was not listening to her needs  which is a valid feeling on her part upon even though I thought I was always caring for her constantly.

I guess this could have made her feel isolated / not a priority which is understandable. The move back to her parents is dependent on building work they need to do for it to be suitable for her to move back in. When I asked her about this on Wednesday she indicated that she wasn't sure what was happening but that the last time it was mentioned the work would take 6 weeks and begin in June. She indicated that it's been frustrating chatting to her parents about it as they've made her at times feel that even though there's an agreement for her to pay them rent to repay the work cost that they're doing her a favor and they've mentioned a few other things that have made her feel incredibly guilty and like she has to be overly thankful even though she's paying them back. She also asked for locks on the extension that only she has access to and it was met with "oh another thing" kind of attitude.

She's also indicated that there's been mention of the space being a possible space for her younger sister in a few years which made her feel like they don't expect her to stay there long term. I also found that a bit confusing.

I do think that the idea of having a whole new space built for her is an exciting prospect which may make the moving out decision easier for her. But she must also know that if she commits to this she has to live there even if she decides she wants a relationship with me down the line.

I've really missed her this weekend and we said we would have check ins which I was hoping to spend some time with her when she's back today and lightly bring up how the weekend was for her and if she's thought anymore about our last chat. I've been using AI to help me draft some things I want to talk about. This includes what she might need for more independence in this house for the next few months to see if still living here could be a possibility if we made some adjustments. I'm not going to bombard her with these things though and if I feel like I should wait for another check in then I will.

Just after our chats about still wanting to do things together it feels natural that after a weekend apart we would then do something together to see how the dynamic feels. But the no contact has definitely been hard.

I've also done a few tiny things this weekend just to make her still feel cared and wanted.

I tided and cleaned the house (this was very much for myself) but I also changed her bedsheets and washed her normal and work clothes and put the in the end of her bed. Whilst shes been living here I said id leave things like that to her but I thought as she has been away it might be nice to come back to fresh sheets.

I've also restocked the fridge with little bits she has daily. Things like her usual drink, snack and bananas that she's eating regularly at the moment. I don't want to do too much but I feel like these are things I would have normally done as I care for her and I feel like it's a nice subtle gesture to make her feel at home.

I've made sure I've not just gone and done these things for her I've also washed my own stuff and restocked things I like. Hopefully it won't be overstepping at all

I'm not sure if she's actually going to be back tonight or not which has kind of got me a little down.

I know her parents will be back now but I guess she might spend another night. I have work tomorrow and I know she has a busy day so the next time in my head we could check in would be Friday or next weekend. It's a little frustrating that I haven't seen or heard from her and will have to wait for a light check in. However I do understand that when we agreed to check in there was no set cadence specified and we would just do it when the moment felt right. So on those terms I probably can't be expecting anything. Especially as she never actually said when she would be home either. I was just assuming.

I think this also comes down to her independence so I need to make sure I don't break that need of hers. I'm trying to stay strong

You're in such a tough position right now and I'm glad you stayed busy while she was away.  Remember your own words though, that you'd prefer a hard split for the time being if there wasn't a path towards immediate reconciliation.

This was a "test run", so to speak, and you made it through.  Of course you've missed her; you love her still.  But it wasn't the end of the world either.

Hopefully she's had some time to think and process things...time apart can be a really good thing sometimes.

Thanks for your reply and yeah I need to remember that a hard split is what will be best for me in the long run if there's no chance of a relationship.

So an update.

She came back last night. I was in the living room watching some rubbish TV.

I'd got a nose piercing over the weekend ( something I was debating doing for a while and something she was also excited for me to do) she reacted with excitement, said it suited me and looked "ace" which I know I shouldn't over analyze but it's not a word she's used with me before and maybe was cautious about using something that made me think she thought it was attractive etc which I can understand, but regardless made me feel like she really has changed her feelings towards me.

She asked if I wanted a drinking buddy ( I had a small glass of wine on the table) I agreed, we sat down and talked about the weekend. We laughed, shouted at the tv etc. She expressed that she was tired and I asked if she wanted to pause what we were watching and go to bed, she didn't reply so I kept watching. Then about 30 minutes later she said she was falling asleep so I agreed to pause it and we both went off to bed.

I know you should probably go with a gut feeling on things like this because I know her well. But it really does feel different to the other times. She explained how she didn't drink much on the weekend and just watched things on TV with her sister and her sisters friends. She's off to therapy today and I've left a note saying I hope it goes well and she has a good day as I'm off to work.

It's just so frustrating as for me I know we had a really good relationship regardless of the ups and downs but I also know having these wine nights is something she wants, so she's more likely to be accepting of the situation.

I know she has a busy week ahead. So after our last conversation I think I might check in with her this Friday or Saturday

I've had a really really tough day today. I've felt like crying all day and even as I'm on the train home I feel terrible.

I think it's mostly from the fact we had a nice evening last night. Maybe these moments aren't good for me even though I love them at the time.

I know she's had a busy day but I half expected her to reach out after her appointment today.

The last time we chatted seemed positive around being in a relationship but living separately however I think I'm scared to check in incase she's changed her mind. I said we could take it slow whilst seeing if it's a route forward for us. And afterwards when I said about any outcomes she said we could have regular catch ups but I struggle to know when to put these in.

Honestly it's just a bad day I think. I'm trying to keep it together. It also hurts that even back in mid January we were texting and she was saying things like "I love how much you love me" etc.

Idk this whole thing is just so difficult

in terms of navigating all of this, thats probably priority number 1.

you really want to avoid any feelings of obligation. she will balk.


it may be that, but it also may not be the last.

youre in a tricky place here. your hopes are up, theyre down, youre mentally watching for signs either way. your nervous system may be somewhat trained on them. having been there before, it can be dopaminergic, where it all sort of feeds on itself, and gets you stuck in a loop of uncertainty, feels great when you detect positive signs, hard crash in the absence of them, ever more vigilant detecting of signs.

thats okay/not bad, in and of itself. but two things are key to staying centered:

1. she is not in a place where she can deal with any level of neediness. it will push her away. checkins, obligatory talks, potentially even some of the loving/welcoming gestures, can all potentially feel that way to her. it would likely help to be out (anywhere) more, a little less available, and also can help break up some of the vigilance.

2. none of this is easy, we understand. you need an outlet(s) that isnt her. that can be us, it can be friends and family, therapist, etc. doing that is the other half of staying centered. its not to stifle yourself, per se, its to use the outlets to vent and work through those feelings, utilize that support, that shes not capable of being right now. so, it was a smart move to spill your guts here. those are good boundaries in practice.

thats how you stay cool  *)

https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

Thanks for the reply, I know you're right. It's taken everything in me this evening not to vent to her. I haven't and I'm proud of that.

I did however let her talk about her CFT therapy. She said she'd done her research and went to the psychologist and said how she has all skills and that she doesn't need it and they've ended her sessions as it's all they would offer her. She expressed how she'd love to go to a counselor to talk through everything in her life but that's on her.

She is (in my opinion based on the past) in a very okay place right now and she thinks that too. And she's adamant that her BPD diagnosis doesn't sit with her and never has and that she never felt like she related to anyone with BPD. It's hard not to take her opinion at face value as I know our history proves she definitely has a personality disorder. However her saying that and the way she's acting does hit home that she really is thinking the breakup through.

Previously she has gone out drinking, sought attention, been reckless with money and at the moment she's planning in things to do with friends, being careful with money, not drinking etc. I am really happy for her but it's just hits home that she's probably serious about this and we're not going to get married etc

I'm really really trying to accept that. I think I need to. It's nice to vent on here and I know I just need to crack on with this and sort my own life out. It's just easier said than done.

Thank you for being there though

This is a process for her just as much as it is for you, and I'm sure she's thought this out at length.  The mental illness aspect complicates that process and makes the future more unpredictable.

With that said, your conversations sound positive and your eyes are opening to what a long-term relationship might look like.  How does that make you feel?

It feels very vague and unpredictable which is probably the history of our relationship coming through.

I think although we agreed to check in on the relationship but living apart point I just see her still trying to be distant from me even though she messaged me yesterday asking if I wanted anything from the shop for dinner.

I think it's more frustrating because I want to have another check in right now. However I'm still taking into account her life in the background. For example she has a very stressful work meeting tomorrow after work that was delayed that could have an impact on her job going forward.

So I think it's my anxiety getting the better of me where I just want to talk to her more or do things with her. I think I can wait until Friday evening. It's not that long away but it's tough that I'm still thinking of her.

I know I want a relationship with her as I was happy and it was rewarding in many ways. But there is an element of her needs always being out first even though part of the recent "crisis" is that no one listens to her needs even though she does loads of effort on her part to manage her health so it doesn't affect others. I do think there's some truth to this but not as much as she's making it out to be. All I've ever done is put her needs first and change my routines to think about her e.g move out of the main bedroom due to snoring, always bring her whatever she needs, be there for her in times of emotional stresses.

Update-

She came back from work today and infact had the meeting today that she thought was tomorrow. It went really well and she feels really good about everything.

We sat and talked about it with some wine. We watched TV and had dinner together. I was tempted to bring up having a check in we agreed upon but didn't.

It was a good night and then we said goodnight.

In all honesty the more this happens and the more I see her in a pretty okay place mentally.

I still have all the hope as I still want to be her partner and it's going to be tough as hell if / when she moves out. It's just really hard to detach myself right now if that's what I should be doing. Being there for chats and watching TV with her is lovely. She even wanted a snack and remarked that we had her favourite snack. Obviously the only reason we do is because I make sure they're in for her. I'm sure she appreciates it but at the same time there seems to be no acknowledgement of that it's like it's just expected to still be the case but also if they weren't there I don't think she would make much of a fuss you know?

I just think she's grieved it all maybe. I don't know.

Good realization- and one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other.  It is possible that <a> you need space to heal while < b> you want to see the relationship improve over time.  Yes, it will be hard at times and yes, you will miss her.  But you can't confuse short-term goals (your healing) with long-term goals (restoring the relationship).


That reminded me of an incident shortly after my ex and I broke up.  She was visiting my daughter next door with her parents and they all ended up spending the night.  I couldn't sleep so I made a drive to the next town over (about an hour each way) to buy her favorite coffee so she'd have it waking up.  It was like 6 AM by the time I got there, and the fresh pastries smelled great so I grabbed some of them too.  Then I was home around 7:15 and left everything on my daughter's front porch.

When my ex's mom saw the receipt and how far I'd driven, she came over to thank me and ask why I went so far.  I told her that it was the nearest place to get my ex's favorite coffee brand/flavor; nobody stocked it locally.  So she went to my ex and told her to come thank me...and couldn't understand why she wouldn't.

It's not that my ex didn't appreciate it- she just took it for granted that her husband should do stuff like that.  And it took my mother in law's reaction for me to realize, "Hey, this isn't a normal thing that people just do for each other without receiving thanks."

Do I regret it though?  Not at all.  However, it also made me think about my intentions- why did I do it that particular day?  And I think that's the million dollar question.

Another update

She came home from work early yesterday as her doctor suggested that she may have had another medical incident which after all the goings on at work has stressed her out a bit more.

I chatted with her a fair bit and also asked if we could have a check in this weekend to which she agreed to Friday (today). I'm a bit nervous as I have a feeling when I open with building on what we talked about last time she will dismiss it as me understanding it wrong, I could just be anxious but yeah.

Last night we ended up watching a quiz show together and got pretty drunk. Off the back of her medical news I think she kind of needed it.

It was a nice evening, however I noticed some things that she did that made me a little upset. Nothing to do with the relationship but just the way in which she spoke to me and that maybe has been a pattern in our relationship when she's either not feeling too good or drunk, neither of which is an excuse.

She would get up and go to the bathroom and put it the blue say something like "yes, thank you" indicating that she wanted a top up of her drink. Very much made me feel like that's all I'm good for etc. When I said back "a please would be nice" she replied with "I said thank you". But it's how she said it and just assuming I knew what she wanted and that's what I was there to do etc.

At one point in the night she wanted another bottle of wine to share and I said id be happy to deliveroo some as there was some food shopping I'd need to get.

I forget how but somehow she mentioned something about having "paid for two takeaways for us both in recent weeks" and that I haven't given her any money for them. I replied saying that at the time they seemed like a gift and I mentioned that all the food in the house over the past month has been paid for by me.

I know I'm too nice and she's mentioned that I'm doing this anyway so I do think it was just the fact she was drunk. I didn't mention it but I've also since she broke up with me and she's been on less money I've been paying all the rent and bills myself. So it felt really really harsh for her to even joke about asking for takeaway money.

Its times like that that really make me question whether she actually realizes and understands what I provide and do for her on a daily basis. Just very hurtful.

youre contorting, every which way, and asking for acknowledgment of it.

it sounds like its residual - left over from the relationship - and now, showing up as both a bid for acknowledgment, and as resentment.


this is needy posturing: can we have a check in? can i get some reassurance (about where we stand)? can you help me regulate the anxiety i feel about this situation?

she cant. and trying will be dissatisfying every time.

sure - she was probably stung a bit by "a please would be nice" - didnt know where it was coming from, and probably could feel the accusation behind it, in the context of all of this talk of who moves out, if or when. she responded defensively: "hey, i bought takeout twice". it turned into a low grade battle of who contributes more - an artifact from the relationship. of feelings of inadequacy.


dont do these things with the hidden motive of being seen. she can feel the sense of obligation behind them, and for both of you, it reinforces your feelings of inadequacy.

this matters: its a part of what was broken about the relationship. its still ongoing. whether to detach, or to re-attract her, its a cycle to be broken.

You're right here and whilst I'm not doing the things I do for acknowledgement, I can see how I got frustrated last night and went a bit into resentment. Im not saying any of this to her at all and wouldn't, but venting my feelings here helps me rationalise them a bit so thank you.


I do get this, however from the last chat the outcome seemed positive and genuinely seemed like there was a way forward with the relationship and that we both agreed to think about it and check-in together. I am starting to understand and see how more and more her need for independence and control with all the things going on in her life can also link up to a feeling of inadequacy within the relationship itself. The check in with her isn't about me begging for her back etc its for me to get what I've taken from therapy and self reflection and validate how shes been feeling and discuss both our wants and needs in a calm way. But I do get your point that by the asking for a check in coming from me, it would seem like a needy move

yeah, i didnt say any of that to knock you down, but to help center you  :hug:

youre doing some things that telegraph neediness to a person who, frankly, and not necessarily for right or wrong, is too absorbed in her own needs right now. it works against you in terms of re-attracting her, or conversely, trying to detach.

navigating this requires finesse, at a time where its probably, and understandably, hardest of all. it isnt that loving gestures, like fixing up her bed, are bad, or that you shouldnt do them. or that check ins are inherently bad.

its about examining where theyre coming from, your motivations, whats driving you, and what you may or may not be telegraphing in the process.

the positive is that seeing them, understanding them, can help reduce them, and gain control over them, where youre more in charge of what youre telegraphing, and youre sending the signals you want to send. where things (if you want to do them) like fixing up her bed come across as thoughtful, rather than obligatory.

Yeah I totally see where you're coming from. I've actually saved this message to my phone to reflect on it more when I need it.

She is extremely focused on her needs right now and I need to focus on myself to be in the best position for me.

Thanks for your help and advice

Another update from me.

On Friday evening after ordering a takeaway, I went and asked if she was still okay to have our check in from the last time we spoke that we agreed on.

She apologized profusely saying she had forgotten as she had a lot going on. She tends to do this with a lot of things so I tried to not take it to heart (she usually has to put things in her calendar app so she doesn't forget - likely down to her ADHD)

She asked if we could reschedule it for today (Saturday) after her hair appointment and then after she was off to see her mum as she's been away.

Fast forward to today and she sent me a message saying "How would you feel if we rescheduled our catch up for tomorrow"

It's sunny and with her mum being back they're probably having some drinks in the garden and I can understand how coming back to have a conversation with me might be a bit much and I really appreciate her telling me and not just leaving it.

It does leave me feeling somewhat of the lowest priorities to her but going on past conversations in this thread I understand that right now her needs are coming first in her brain so I'm staying calm and collected and just getting in with my evening. I've been reading a really good book actually it's called "undoctored" incase anyone wants to give it a go.

When I bought up the check in on Friday I did also ask whether it was something she was still interested in doing in general as I don't want it to be something that just comes from me as it was a joint agreement. She said that "she wouldn't agree to rearranging it if she wasn't" and that "she's been quite clear on her stance". I assured her that I understood that but the check in was more around the outcome from last time "her needs and the possibility of a relationship but living separately" she said that she hadn't got round to giving it any more thought yet herself and I said that I've got some things to share and that anything like that would be good to check in regularly on specific topics around it to make sure we're both on the same page. She also mentioned that it seems like we chat and we're on the same page and then come the next one I've done a 180. I disagreed and said that whilst I did that after our first chat when we broke up Ive been purely thinking about the last chats outcome and focusing on that and taking my own bits to therapy.

Even though I have up and down days the rescheduling and lack of engagement on her side is kind of making this a bit easier for me at least now. I know what I'm worth and what I bring and I think if she decides she doesn't want these catch ups then I'm more than happy to stop them going forward

my ex was exactly the same. she said she wanted to keep contact and work things out slowly but I felt very low in her priorities, her texting responses were cold and very long in reply. it makes you feel like dirt. I pushed for more engagement and she broke up with me, I only asked of more engagement as she was needing money and was super engaged in organising that. I asked if we could be this engaged normally and she accused me of mind games and said she didn't want to keep in contact anymore even though I sent the money. they can be so cruel. id love to have the strength to walk but the trauma bond creates an addiction

this is heavy, feels obligatory, and its argumentative.

shes pushing back, youre pushing back-er; things sound like they are getting increasingly tense. on this trajectory, tension is likely to grow, and shes likely to blow up, or flee.

what is the real goal of the check-ins? if its purely logistical in nature, do they need a time or place, or this obligatory sort of structure?

The real goal of the check ins is to validate her needs and to see if there is a way in which our relationship can continue as she expressed that she would be open to thinking about that. It's also for me at least to try and see if there's a way in which her needs can be met here before she commits to living back at her parents and being tied into the costs of paying them back.

From the chats we have had they have been productive, we've not been over emotional and we've not shouted etc however I can understand the emotional toll this could put on us both.

I fully get you though and I think now I'm more willing to back down if this isn't what she wants to put effort into. Regardless of her thinking her bpd diagnosis doesn't fit right there's years of evidence in our relationship and the way that she's acting now that I can remember feeling in the past in similar situations.

She expressed that she didn't like scheduling it check-ins and wanted them to happen naturally which I agreed to. The natural one for me was Thursday just gone where I bought up saying I'd like one but due to her having several things going on I said I'm happy to do it whenever suits her. It only really becomes a scheduled thing when bring it up and hoc and then she suggests a time.

I know she cares deeply for me and wanted to marry me and for those reasons I'm more than happy to suck it up and keep my distance whilst she figures things out and then see if there's a possibility for a relationship. But also from our last chat she said it's something she would want to explore and check in together on. So it's a tough one to navigate. But maybe I need to give some more space

why not look at these three things separately?

1. is there a need to validate her needs? if shes expressed that she didnt like scheduling check-ins, isnt that kind of a contrary effort?

2. seeing if the relationship can continue is a big picture, long game sort of thing. it is not the sort of thing you can achieve, at least in this case, with obligatory "are we or arent we" conversations. those create pressure.

the last time, she gave you a very tentative yellow flag: the possibility exists. she was/is reconsidering. its not a guarantee, but its a hand of very good cards to be dealt, something you can work with, and finesse. its also, like i said, tentative, and fragile; easily smothered, easy to push into the other direction.

3. the logistics (moving out, staying, etc), are tricky. you want her back (so you dont want to send too strong a "leave", or "im done" signal), but you also have a real need to understand whats going to happen. but what more about it, at this point, needs to be discussed? is there a better time, or another way, to get the information you need?

I agree with your points here.

One of the points she raised early on was that she wasn't feeling heard which probably made her needs feel invalid.

I've done a lot of reflection on this and on the same page as what's happening regarding moving out I just want to discuss the reflection I've done on her points needs etc to see if there's a way they can be met and living here etc in terms of control over her finances and life etc if not absolutely fine I'm not going to stand in the way of her leaving to feel like she can get them that way, after all the possibility of a relationship and living apart if a possibility albeit a longer term one. But also like you said I understand that this is tentative and fragile and I don't want to smother her with anything.

She just sent a text back actually saying, thank you so much for agreeing to do it tomorrow she's just been painting her nails and catching up with her mum which is nice.

I sent a message just saying how it's absolutely fine and I don't want to add any pressure as she has a lot going on and that I hope she's having a nice evening in the sun.

She then replied asking why I'm being such a millennial with my emoji use

glad the mood is lightening!

you might, if you can find a good opportunity (dont force it or do it unnaturally), try to affect a little 'reset'. maybe mention youve been feeling stressed out (not about her), or something like that, and that you felt like you might have been short, or irritable, or a similar adjective, lately, and that youre feeling better about it now; sorry if you came across that way.

then, if you do, follow by pulling back a lot, emotionally and physically; for example, if a check-in time happens, dont even approach it or mention it, just let her, if shes going to (and pay no mind if she doesnt). be less available, more out of the house, that kind of thing. not shunning her, or anything, just cooler, and busier.

its subtle, but it can achieve a lot psychologically. it will catch her off guard, cause her to drop her guard, make you look stronger, take the pressure off. she'll notice.

as a guy that has chronically over-pursued women in my life, that little 'reset' can do wonders. it says "i get it, and im self regulating now". thats attractive.

Yeah I'll do this thank you.

In all honesty when this last happened in 2021 I did exactly that when we lived together during that time and I even started going on dates ( I won't do this again btw it was a direct response to things she'd done / said and I'm in a more mature place now to realize it wasn't right to date when I wasn't ready)

But I just kept busy and then she eventually reached out and wrote me a letter and then we got back together for the last three years.

I think it's more the permanent move out that's on my mind that's making me struggle. Knowing she's actually doing something this time to be separate is hard to take. But it's getting easier. In all fairness the more I feel like I'm not a priority to her the easier it is to detach , right now anyway

some of it has to do a bit with the different ways in which men and women are attracted to each other.

its why there is some truth/validity to the stuff in the pickup artist community.

pulling back can create attraction. but not because its a psychological mind game that women are immune to. because it looks (and is, if its sincere) strong, grounded, secure. for women, that tends to create not just attraction, but feelings of safety and security. men tend to have less need for that (not none at all, but a lower priority) to experience attraction and connection.

for somebody who is kind of at her own mercy like she is right now? not sure which way is up? its extra attractive.

youve seen it happen before. you know it "works". your achilles heel here isnt even the anxiety itself (its totally valid, shouldnt be dismissed or stifled, it just needs proper outlets), its the way in which youre directing it. it clashes with your goals, and her state of mind/being.


it feels like a big, final, permanent thing, but trust that it doesnt have to be. it doesnt have to be a barrier to reconciliation. you can be separated and together. it might even (theoretically) be the best thing for you right now, to give that tension some release.

Something on my mind today.

Her previously brining up the possibility of being in a relationship but living separately and then the other day saying she hadn't given it any thought since.

I know it's probably too emotional for her right now but surely her brining the word up initially and saying she would think about it is something?

I do agree with you once removed that living separately doesn't mean we cant reconcile. However it's just a hard prospect as social norms would suggest that going from being engaged to living separately isn't something that's normally done.

I'd be open to this as she means the world to me and nothing is changing my feelings towards her. But I guess it's still a bitter pill to swallow

There is a part of me that feels distance might be good.

She was round her parents last night and today shes just staying in her room and watching TV etc it's hard to not want to spend time with her or to want her to not want to spend time with me.

But I have to remember that she wants to be independent and she wants her own space etc. so although it's hard I'm continuing to respect that and only interact with her in passing or if she initiates.

So as agreed she came downstairs to have a chat after I cooked her dinner.

She'd had a headache and been in bed all day.

She seems down, abrupt and used words like "may as well get it over with"

I explained how I'd done some reflection on her feelings but I was willing to leave it for now if she didn't feel in the right headspace.

She went on to say how right now and even though it would sound harsh. She can't avoid the responsibility of work, she can't avoid the health issues she has going on the only thing to try and not be overwhelmed and the only thing she can avoid right now is me.

I said that it's valid that she feels that way and that I'm more than happy to chat another time.

She explained how she feels like after our last chat around a relationship but living separately that I would cling to that slight glimmer of hope  and that she would bet that all of what I've written down was about that and that she hasn't had time to even think about it because of everything going on.

I explained that almost everything I'd written down was nothing to do with that but more me thinking about her needs and things she'd said.

I decided to say let's park it for now and asked if there was anything I could do for her in the meantime to take some pressure off her.

She said "what apart from cleaning, cooking, paying for everything whilst I walk around like a ghost, you're already doing everything"

She then said that shes done with her life and then went back up to bed saying sorry for ruining your life.

I care about her a lot and know she's going through a PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) ton. So I'm going to back off and be there to support her if necessary. I know how to support her through times like this, however I need to come to terms right now as the person she can't put much thought into because everything else is too much

Remember that if/when you get through the current difficult time, reality is still there.  This wasn't the first time things were bad.  It can happen again in the future.  Reality says that unless major mental health improvements happen, then the past will be a predictor of the future.  (And you haven't even had children yet.  Actively parenting for the next two decades is a huge ever-present trigger that would have to be foreseen and addressed.)

believe it or not, thats the norm. its exactly what, sitting here, i would expect.

it may not be where you would want it to be, ideally. but sitting here, it confirms to me it isnt dead. if it were? she would have told you. shes had ample opportunity, and the subject came up directly. she even said she bet that it was your focus, had the opportunity right there in her hand, and she didnt shatter your hopes, she communicated "back off". heed it strongly.

"not thinking about it" is somewhere between neutral and even good. if she were thinking about it a lot, either shed be all over you, and youd know, or it would be bad.

its not a priority. its the last thing shes thinking of. but that is significantly different than being done. it means the relationship, and the thought of it, are stressful. something to delay.

thats where you come in. to quietly, subtly, show her how inviting, how stabilizing, and how much better it could be.


you were right to dodge that like a freight train.

i think that for right now, it would be in your best interest to completely forget about check-ins of any kind. just drop it, for now, entirely. zero mention. check-in? what check-in?

the signals are strong that they would likely lead to exasperation, and likely, her shutting down on the idea of the relationship. when women feel cornered, that is what tends to happen. its self-perpetuating.

a check-in becomes a great idea when she brings it up.


this is obviously about more than you, but youre a part of it. it confirms that she sees the relationship or talk of it as a source of stress. it is clear that the digs from the recent nights stung. and its clear that shes burned out, on life, in general. down on herself, etc.


yes.

now is the time to back off. hard.

i say this, not to get your hopes up, but you have the signs that you want, that you could reasonably be expected to see. and you also have blinking red lights that youre rapidly approaching a tipping point where any more stress on the situation will be a nail in the coffin.

in terms of trying to support her, i wouldnt approach her about this. i wouldnt reassure her, or try to comfort her, or tell her shes not ruining my life. just let her get back to baseline. let her be. let natural levity creep back in, even if its awkward for a bit. let her be surprised that you seem less urgent about it all. let her feel relief from the stress and pressure and obligation. it will catch her off guard. she might even test it: if she comes to you tonight about the check-in? nah. its been a long day, shes tired, youre tired, lets do something light and fun instead.

Thanks for this advice and im going to stick to it even when times get tough.

From our chat last night I can see shes really struggling and even though it hurts her outwardly saying that I'm the one thing she can avoid at the moment because the relationship is too stressful is a good insight.

I know her well but there is a part of me that still feels like its always been this way. Im always the one that's put her first. I don't resent her at all, I was happy with this arrangement and I was happy and content with my life.

However there is part of me that feels like its unfair. That I've done some genuine reflection on the things shes been saying and yet she assumes that the chat would have all been about a relationship which isn't true.

It also hurts that it could be the case that shes delaying having these discussions because she knows she'll be moved out at some point. I know her well and although I don't think this is the case I do know that in times like this she will only be thinking of whats best for her and no-one else. To reemphasise her point of not being responsible for anyone.

I know the only thing to do is to let her get on with everything, let her move out and incurr the reprecussions of that long term. I think its just hard for me because the effect that will have on both of our lives both practically and financially will be big and if she regrets it its almost another thing to sort between us.

The cycles and similar ascepts of both times this has happened though are there and I'm more confident now to get on and live my life and to give her the space she needs, at least for now.

With her medical conditions it was extremely unlikely that we could have children anyway so it was something that'd id come to terms with. But you're right and it was something id thought about and I came to the conclusion that if I were to want this relationship it would mean not having children even if we could have them etc

I noticed in the sentences above, as you were reflecting, it was all present tense except for how you felt about the relationship.  That's in past-tense.

Maybe that's just the writer in me looking for verb agreement, but it feels like something more.

You're right, she expected the conversation to be a desperate plea to win back her heart.  But she also acknowledged that you're the cook, the cleaner, the breadwinner, and the sole thing she can push to the side when she doesn't want to deal with it.

That's extremely unfair, and it makes me wonder if there's an ulterior motive behind it.

Stay with me for a sec.  If you're cooking and cleaning for me, paying all the bills, etc. and you're expecting something from me...yet I keep putting off that conversation...can you see I'd have everything to gain and nothing to lose by delaying things?

And the thing you're really asking for here, it's not a relationship.  It's just clarity.

I agree that the check-ins are unhealthy.  But here's something else to consider- receiving no answer is also an answer.  You mentioned the need for space, and she replied with stating you're the one thing she can avoid dealing with.  That's an answer, my friend.

I'm not giving any suggestions on what to do next, because this has to come from you.  But if you think back to when we talked earlier and I mentioned betting on yourself, prioritizing what you need to be mentally stable and feeling fulfilled, that's a step that you'll ultimately have to take on your own.  She's just not in a position to contribute in that area right now, and the one answer you truly need is not going to come anytime soon.

Hello Pook,

Yeah I agree with you.

In all honesty the line of "the one thing I can avoid right now is you" really got me and not in the way I expected. She is really unwell right now but I can't have someone I thought would be my future say look out of everything going on right now you're the one thing I can avoid.

As I was cleaning I did catch some of her notes recently from a session and she's very much feeling like she has no self worth, she's a burden, no one checks in with her etc which is hard because I feel like I always did but those feelings run deep for her and she needs to figure that out.

She also stated that she knows she withdraws and that she has concerns that people with leave. Again I understand those feelings are deep rooted but its very difficult to understand when she's the one leaving me and that in turn will cause me to leave.

I think I have a very good grasp on how she feels but at the same time it's tricky to understand her actions if you get me?

I think she's right and her mum's right as well she almost needs this time alone to really try and deal with her mental and physical health and as much as it pains me to do it, I'll just have to keep on trying to just live my life and get on with things.

Right now I'm actually feeling like I'm in a okay headspace. You guys are helping a lot and I'm less emotional. Obviously I have good and bad days.

I think I'm still in denial about her moving out and when / if that day comes I think it'll hit me hard. But until then I'm making progress I think

Another update from me.

So this morning when I got up she came into the kitchen said good morning to me and discussed how often we're feeding the cats as they're annoying her in the morning for food quite early. We came up with a plan together and although it was trivial was a nice interaction.

Then came something else. I went upstairs to sit in bed with my coffee and she came in and started to talk to me about therapy. She's been in therapy recently but didn't get on with it and I know she wants to talk through things with someone.

For context I get full private healthcare through my work for myself and my partner. She asked if she could use it to get some therapy sessions with someone she's found. I was actually thinking of offering her this the other day as more than anything I just want her to be well.

But as the ask for support came from her and she was also willing to foot the bill herself (although this would be expensive) I said yes to do whatever she needed to get help and support.

She thanked me for letting her and we talked about how she was going to approach it.

Not sure if I did the right thing. There are feelings there of well you couldn't even chat to me at all but you're happy to ask me for this or that. However I also know how much it must have taken her to ask me for help especially right now.

So I did it and now I'm going to back off again.

Hopefully that's the right thing

Her viewpoint is likely very different and it stems from disordered thinking.  You said it yourself though, she feels worthless and like she's a huge burden.  And when you asked for space, that fed into her paranoia. 

However, you're still communicating and she's still relying on you.  That's the key here, to continue talking and building trust.  Her desire to get into therapy and take is serious is a huge step.  It's the most any of us could hope for.  And it's great that you're helping her with that.

Did you do the right thing?  Well yeah- you care about her and have her needs in mind.  You did the right thing.  Just don't let that change your own path though in terms of healing and growing.  Helping her and helping yourself are two different things, and you absolutely must come first.

Thanks for this Pook. Yeah I know it was the right thing to do now and I talked through it in therapy today.

We talked through her feelings and therapy today and we've communicated a lot today which is nice.

She asked if we had any wine but has continued to stay upstairs and watch tv etc and it's a bit sad because I thought it might be nice to sit together but at the same time I'm keeping my distance unless she messages or talks to me about something specific.

Tough but I'm feeling better and more centered

any way to get out of the house more?

not just for the fresh air, although theres that.

shes up in her room. youre wherever you are. its a little awkward, maybe a little tense.

having somewhere to be, having something to be up to, creates a little bit of mystery. makes you look like youre not preoccupied. makes the place look a little emptier without you. its subtle, but psychologically attractive. it also helps gives you something to look forward to, frees your mind up.

Hey once removed,

Yeah im trying to keep myself busy and get out more even if its for long walks etc.

She went to her first therapy session today which seems to have gone really well. Apparently, the therapist also thinks that BPD may not sit right with her. Which is hard to take in as from my perspective and my therapists there's clear patterns but I cant get too focused on this.

The most important thing for me right now is that I care deeply about her and shes getting the help and support that she needs and that shes never got before. Im proud of her and really hope that she comes out the other side having resolved some things. I just need to put my wants for the relationship to oneside and slowly I think I'm able to.

So bit of an update.

Yesterday I went out for a walk and decided to come back and chat to her, not a big chat but I mainly needed clarification on her moving out and if the building work was indeed going ahead ( for me this was unclear and I didn't really know if her moving out was a possibility)

So I came back and asked if she was free for me to discuss the move out.

She was and seemed like she was in a good place. She said that yes the building work was going ahead but reiterated that it was very out of her control. It was offered to her and then one day her mum went, yep it's all happening without consulting with her again on what it would look like living back there. She has a lot of reservations but obviously also reservations about living here. It's clear though that moving back is going to be both a nice amount of independence for her but also not something she's certain of.

We had a good chat around a lot of the aspects of that and how she's feeling and there's definitely a reservation on her part about being able to go and say actually no this isn't what I want now but that's more down to her relationship with her parents. It's not a bad relationship but I don't think she'd want the fallout. However we did agree that if she did say she'd changed her mind we think her parents would build it anyway as they're very much impulsive like that.

I then did say I had some other things I wanted to ask and say and she said I could and she would listen. I talked about her need for independence and my role in maybe not allowing that to happen fully in our relationship but also ways in which did did have that. We talked around things in the relationship that she felt were cycles and also how there seems to be real change when there's a threat there like the threat of a break up or not being together etc. I agreed with this and could only apologize that that was the case and that actions speak louder than words and I would like to put that into practice whether we stayed living together or not.

We did then discuss a bit more around a relationship but living apart. There's obviously a lot of pieces around this and how we'd both feel about it. I would very much feel more comfortable being in a relationship as she moves out however she said she would need to be away and in the living separately space to understand if that's something she would want. She knows she wants me in her life and she knows a relationship is the only way I'd feel comfortable doing that but doesn't want either one of us to do go along with something just because it's what the other person wants and I agreed.

I stated that she makes me very happy which she disagreed with and I also said that I've never ever seen her as a burden and she disagreed but really appreciated hearing that.

We both agreed that finances, and trying to scramble and save for big things like a wedding and a house stopped us doing what we loved together and there's an element of living separately that we think would do us good and enable us to almost reset and enjoy life together. We agreed though that communication and outlining what this means for us both would be key though. She said I need to go away and really think about what it means for me and if I would be happy with a life like that, which I agreed. She says she knows me and thinks that if I saw her out on social media or if she forgot to tell me she was doing something it would eat me up. I disagreed but said I would reflect on this and really be honest with myself on how that might make me feel.

We also talked about what it would look like as it could end up with her back over here most of the time but with an extra rent attached to her almost for nothing. We agreed that it has to be something we both think about and that it would essentially be us dating again and seeing how things go. But she did reiterate that she said she would think about thinking about it and that she doesn't want me to hold onto it as it's not the only outcome. I think she also doesn't want to just do it because she wants me in her life so much. She said that she knows she could be with me and that it could be easy to do that, but she needs to really keep her need for independence in mind and I think her seeking therapy speaks volumes on this and I'm proud of her.

When she asked about what I want I reiterated that I'm feeling very centered and after reflection I keep coming back to the same conclusion that I want a life with her. She said that if x and y hadn't happened we'd never have met so life can go down all sorts of routes for me. I just stated that I know that my life with continue without her but  that I'm sure and positive in her being the life path I want but I understand it takes two and it needs to be what we both want.

We ended up having an evening together watching TV and deciding to go together to the birthday gift I'd bought her last year. We then watched TV together tonight and I've asked her if she wants to go to a festival with me this weekend, which she seems open to she just needs to make sure she can budget for it.

I feel like we really do absolutely love spending time with each other and both want that without the extra stress of finances, pressures etc and going forward that's what our relationship would be. I feel like I could maybe be setting myself up for a harder fall when she leaves by doing things and spending time with her, however on the flip side I think it's a good idea to put things in the diary to do together to understand what that looks like and almost get a taste of reconnecting in that way, something we've neglected in the past due to other stresses.

I know that she's well aware that doing these things could make me feel a certain way and for her also as she mentioned that when I struggled spending time with her a month or so ago and it could be confusing. However her willingness right now to consider these things like the festival I think shows that she's also open to doing things like that and seeing how she feels with it and whether it might work for her in the long run as we build up to living apart.

Overall although she is diagnosed with BPD I do think there's a lot more too her thinking about all of this and I think she's doing everything in a good and healthy way and all I can do is keep being true to myself.

I agree, she's put a lot of thought into this and moving out to be independent is an important step.  I think it's the only path that works for a long-term relationship as well, because you want her to choose you when things like money and housing isn't in the picture.

Your feelings may also change once you're on your own, because you'll have so much more clarity in seeing both the good and the bad.  For me, my feelings never changed about my ex and I would have reconciled, but it would have been on terms that worked for me personally (her job, lifestyle, etc) instead of just "please come back no matter what".

I couldn't have had that clarity if I didn't spend some time alone working on me, finding myself once again.  Breaking that co-dependence was the best thing that ever happened to me because I knew I was making objective choices.

With that said, it sounds like the doors are still wide open for reconciliation in your future.  It will be tough if/when she leaves, but you can't look at it that way.  You love her, want what's best for her, and this is a step she absolutely must take to feel independent.  That's a good thing, even if it's bittersweet.

As we talked about earlier, this is an opportunity for you to reconnect with your values and really discover yourself all over again.  I know it's tough right now, but in time you'll realize that this is also exciting.  Because whatever ends up happening, it's going to be in your best interests for the rest of your life.

Thanks Pook. I am feeling better about things but again I know this might be because we're doing things together.

I messaged her today asking if she could book holiday for June and it looks like that's all okay (we need two days off for the event we're going to)

However for the festival tomorrow I asked if I could book the tickets but said there was no pressure. She responded saying that she was nervous as she would be on her feet all day and that she doesn't think she has the money to buy drinks etc.

I explained how I wouldn't mind paying for some drinks and we could do some other bits. I tried to keep her financial independence in mind but not very well in hindsight.

She then responded saying that going later to the festival would be more manageable but that also she really doesn't want me paying for anything.

With the help of my friend and after a ton of editing as I started to write about wanting things like this if we were to have a relationship apart, I reduced my reply to this:

"Yeah I totally understand that and I really get you not wanting me to pay for anything.

However maybe theres something else we could do tomorrow? Cheaper or even free? So it doesn't hurt your bank and isn't like I'm paying for you?"

I haven't got a reply yet but hopefully this reassures her that I totally understand what she's saying and respecting that

She replied saying that she has a feeling she might have something on tomorrow that's not on the calendar. She said she probably doesn't but it just popped into her mind.

She asked if one of my friends would be up for going.

I replied just saying that I was only considering going on my own and then was going to not go due to it being a full day thing which wouldn't really be something i'd want to do alone. However it was more about doing something with her as even though we have to think individually about how things might look in the future, I know that having things in the calendar is something that's important to me as I love spending time with her.

I should have maybe included something in the message around saying maybe its too soon to be doing a lot of things together as things are probably still raw but I did add a line just saying absolutely no pressure if you want want to do something tomorrow etc.

I have a feeling that we might now end up doing nothing but I can understand her stance.

i think you may still be pushing too hard.

shes not coming out and saying "no", but shes giving all the signs, and saying everything but. youre responding with "well, what about _____". but to her, that may feel like pressure.

after the talk, its clear things are not dead. the possibility and opportunity are still there.

but now is the time to emotionally pull back significantly - not push for more.

edited to add: give the space, not just to her, but specifically, for attraction to re-develop.

When she got home she actually said her main worry is money and that also having work today and Monday meant that she didn't really want to go out of the house but she's up for doing something together in the house tomorrow.

She then said that if we wanted to do something together next weekend when she has a longer period of time off then that would be better for her.

It's a really tough one as there has been a lot of stress around our relationship. I know that there's no absolute chance that she'll move out and we'll date and be together etc but for me because I know that's happening now that's my cut off.

She's said a relationship but living apart is something that she would think about and obviously I have to think about it too and she explained how she needs to be in that environment to really know if that's what she would want and that she doesn't just want me to cling to that.

So it really does have to come from her. I know I could be setting myself up for further heartbreak. But either way if we did almost reset the relationship it would need to be taken slow anyway almost back to dating. I have an interview for a second job coming up which will let me pay if debt fast, keep me busy and help me buy a van to convert which is something I wanted to do.

I feel like if she said no to spending time together I'd be fine with that but she's open to it and not saying that she thinks it's a bad idea etc which is good thing.

I think there's also an element of her that wants to be sure that yes its what she wants but also that she's sure that I'm acting on what I want for myself as a big thing for her is thinking she's holding me back / being a burden / ruining my life.

Don't get me wrong in these interactions we're having they're very platonic, respectful and little pressure. Currently if she says something that doesn't sit right with me I hear it and go about my day etc.

The hardest parts at the moment is the shared calendar app we have and the family group chats. I'm still apart of them and she's not mentioned me not being in them. But I see things being booked in with her family and it's things id normally be involved in. Don't get me wrong I'm a little sad but more of the mind that it is what it is. I won't be going and it's her life.

I'm focusing on our cats, my job, getting fit and clearing debt because I realize that regardless of the outcome by focusing on those things it could put me in a really strong place come 3 or 4 months time.

I am hearing you and I'm trying not to push too hard, even leaving her on read when normally I'd try and think of at least something to reply to her.

Whilst she has BPD and has started the treatment journey which will only be a good thing. I feel like she's definitely at least right now not seeing this relationship as her future as she once did and whilst even her own words that it's clear cut for me it's not for her right now and it takes two and I need to respect that.

Thanks for the continued support though. Everyone here has been amazing and I don't know how I'd have coped and also cope with what's coming up without everyone here

these are the key takeaways from the conversation that you had with her. they are loud signals. they tell you everything you need to know.


what shes saying: the relationship is broken. there is no going back. something has to give. ive now had the time, space, and distance, to see that. a glimmer of change wont be enough to return.

nice move with the actions speaking louder than words stuff. it says you get it.


she hasnt let go of the idea of being in a relationship.

she has both considered and experienced life apart from you, and apart from the relationship. she has seen its appeal. shes reaching for it. she does not want that to be deterred.


she has considered what it would look like to be together again, under the right circumstances. she considers the old relationship dead.


she wants you to do the same thing she has done/is doing.


all of this tells you one thing:

she has both feet out the door of the relationship. she is holding the door open, hinging on the possibility of real change this time; the hypothetical "dating again" that she has imagined.

shes not "done". but shes done with the relationship as it was. she wants you to be, too.

she wants you to consider, really consider, your ideal life without her. she wants both of you to know that if you were to get back together, that it would be the right thing.

she doesnt want the prospect of getting back together dangling over your interactions. all that represents to her is the cycle repeating. that will make her feel cornered.

thats the problem with pushing to arrange time together. yeah, it sounds nice to her, or she would shut you down rather than hem and haw. but: it puts her in a position shes uncomfortable being in. it establishes a trajectory of effort to reconstitute the relationship. shes not opposed to spending time with you. she is uncomfortable with the terms.

let her lead on that. when shes ready, she will push for ways, both overt and subtle, to spend time together. youll get the best of her, when she does. she already signaled this by, without commitment, saying "maybe tomorrow, or maybe next week when i have more time".

and, at the end of the day, shes practically begging you to create not just the spark, but the fire.

the spark = real change. she wants to see the confident, independent guy; the one that loves her, but doesnt need her. shes reaching for that version of herself, now. the centered guy, who doesnt flinch when she doesnt know what to do with herself.

the fire = the distance, space, and mystery, to re-ignite attraction. to make that hypothetical version of the relationship shes imagined an actual real life possibility, as its happening. the sexiness.

take her literally and figureatively: do some "going away". do it deliberately. put her aside (figureatively) and begin to reach for the life where, whether or not you want her in it, you can imagine life without her, and it doesnt look so bad.

youll begin to feel it. and she will respond to it.

one other pointer: when you have those sorts of chats, do less disagreeing. do less agreeing. im not saying do zero of either one, to the point of being unresponsive, but rather, more importantly, just signal that youre taking what she says on board. you dont need to prove her right or wrong in those moments. she will feel a connection because she will be able to feel that youre listening, first and foremost.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that.

Honestly you're amazing and that makes complete sense to me. I'll be sure to read that whenever I need it.

I feel more confident to really try and do things for me. I think I'm happy with the things we've decided to do together but after those things I'll let the rest come from her.

I completely agree with the not disagreeing or agreeing in the moment. I need to remember things can't be solved like magic in the moment in a conversation, it takes action over a period of time and she just wants to be heard.

So we were meant to go to the festival yesterday but we decided to do a "at home" festival today instead as she has to go round her parents for a BBQ yesterday.

Today I thought it would be funny to put some fake festival signs up and she found it funny. I mentioned beforehand if she had any preference on music for the fake festival and she replied with "what festival" and when I reminded her she was like oh no. I asked when she wanted food and she said 4pm.

I just expected to spend the day with her today like we said but I think we might have got a bit mixed up. She's been upstairs watching TV and I'm just giving her space waiting for her to be ready.

Feeling a bit deflated as I don't think I was on the wrong page with spending the day together but at the same time I need to respect her space and the fact if she wanted to come down earlier she would have. I also know her joints are hurting a bit today so it could be that too.

Understand that there will be times that no matter what you say or do - or don't say or don't do - your efforts may still fall short of your hopes or goals.

You may not want to disturb her because that might trigger her.  But for all you know not disturbing (not asking) her could trigger her instead.  And next time it might be the reverse scenario.  Predictably unpredictable.

This lack of natural predictability is a huge factor in the dysfunction of the relationship.  This isn't much of an answer, it is just a disclaimer that in the nature of the mental health aspect (which you usually can't mention for fear of another triggered incident) there will probably be no way to eliminate all triggers nor assure all outcomes are positive.

She came down and we've ended up spending the evening together.

We talked about her therapy and reservations she's having at the moment.

She said she really appreciated the effort I put into the fake festival.

I'm not bringing up anything about the relationship and how I feel about her. I just like spending time with her. Whilst for me it feels like we could just be together I know for her it's not as simple as that.

I think after today I'll back off a fair bit and see if she wants to do something with me next time.

It's stuck with me today that she was so appreciative of yesterday and even said "thanks for such a nice day" before she went to bed.

I did get that sickish feeling slightly in the morning that she's still moving out etc. which I think means that any further things together probably need to come from her.

I keep seeing dates for things being put in the calendar. My instant reaction is her arranging something with a guy etc but I know that's just my anxiety.

I'd really like it if she came back and asked me to do something together soon but I can't hang on that.

It's just weird not texting each other about random stuff and I know that she's been confiding in friends more even though they've also not been the best.

She talked to me yesterday saying how she's nervous about her next therapy appointment as now the first one was out the way shes now in the regretting doing it phases as it's scary to talk about certain things. I tried to reassure her that it's the right thing to do and that I'm proud of her.

I'd really like to get her something small for after her therapy appointment this Friday but I know that is still things coming from me etc.

It's getting easier to not feel any kind of emotion day to day, but it's still hard knowing my future has been altered and I just enjoy being around her etc

You're doing everything right and processing this the best you can, so give yourself some grace.  This is such an emotional situation and it must be taken one day at a time.

Thanks Pook.

I had a pretty bad evening yesterday. Just felt really emotional. I was out for a job interview and as I was walking to get the train she called me asking if I could grab something for her on the way home which I did.

When I got back we talked about our days and she asked where I was. She then expressed concern around me taking on a second job and tried to come up with other solutions and said its my life but she thinks it'd make me ill etc. She then went on to talk about how she was getting chat gpt to look at her finances with and she mentioned rent which obviously made her moving out a bit more of a reality.

I think that with the concern about me working two jobs just got to me for some reason and I went outside and just sat listening to music and drank a few glasses of wine.

I was drinking and vaping and hadn't eaten and started to feel really dizzy, it panicked me a little but and I went up to her and  she asked what my symptoms were and helped chill me out / gave me something to eat. Later I just couldn't settle and went and sat outside for a while listening to music. I'd told her the door was locked earlier and she came down and locked me out, it was only that she was feeling petty that she went to have a go at me for not locking it when she realised she'd locked me out.

She then had a bit of a go at me and asked why I was sitting outside and acting weird. She said it seemed like I was upset because I needed her because I got panicked but this wasn't the case I was just more upset and having a bad day around the idea of her moving out. She seemed a little annoyed and I went and said sorry. She said that I was just acting a bit weird and not like me and its a bit of a weird place caring about me but also worrying and not sure if she should be responsible for me being okay etc.

Just feeling a bit down this week I think and Im trying to get out the house more. Its just a lot knowing this could on on for another month or two.

I'm so sorry, that does sound like a tough day.  At least she was somewhat there for you and recognizes the mess she's created.  Hopefully she's not there for months.

She has a lot of health things going on at the moment along with therapy that she's really nervous about.

It's little things at the moment that are getting to me but I'm staying strong in the environment.

She came in today asked how my day was and then went upstairs. I went and chatted to her again more about her and doctors etc. I asked what she wanted for dinner and I made it and got her a drink and asked if I could sit with her and watch tv whilst we ate.

We ate food and I sat on the floor as it didn't seem like she wanted me to sit on the bed and she looked comfy.

After watching one episode I asked if she was okay as I know there's a lot going on by she seemed quiet. She just replied saying "I'm just tired and in pain"

I politely asked if she wanted me to leave her to watch her show alone for a bit just because I thought maybe we wanted to relax. She replied with "Do what you want mate". Typically this is something she would have normally replied with in our relationship as well when she was fed up with PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) in her life and in pain, so I try and not take it to heart. However it does still hurt when I'm there doing things for her and putting her first and I get a cold reply like that.

There's nothing to read into there imo it just reminds me how there's a lot of things going on in her life at the moment that's really frustrating her and it unfortunately means that I've got to keep my feelings to myself and maybe not keep the pattern of doing things for her as much even though I care about her and it's what I like to do

So I messed up a bit.

As well as my down day on tuesday, yesterday I found out that my parents family dog will likely have to be put down. This affected me quite badly and all I wanted was to chat to my ex.

I watched TV and had a bit to drink and when she got back quite late I made a off comment like "don't ask how my day was then" I apologised afterwards and just said I had a lot going on.

She chatted to me but this morning seemed off and just said that she knows me well and I'm drinking and there just seems to be this atmosphere and that I'm not making things easy.

Looking back at having a bad day on Tuesday and yesterday I can see where shes coming from. I asked if she still wanted to do things this weekend as we had planned and she said maybe. I think that shes thinking doing things together is confusing. She then put in appointments all day Saturday which to me looks like shes now trying to create distance. Just feel like I've gone backwards.

im sorry to hear about the family dog. we all know that there is no easy way to deal with that  :hug:


there has been a need for some time to retreat; to take time, space, and distance, and give things breathing room. to let her lead.

i dont want to kick you while youre down but it matters now more than ever: you have been, are, continuing to do the things that not only arent working, but are working against you. sending the message opposite to the one you are trying to send. its smothering her. its smothering the breathing room you need. youre ignoring the signs, signals, and overt communication shes sending, and doing the opposite. youre fighting yourself, here.

when you do too much of something, or too little, you need to compensate in the other direction, and then you need to give that time to reset things, and become the new normal. one, understandably bad day, is no big deal, but the pressure, has been steadily and consistently ramping up. the cracks are on the verge of bursting. the need to compensate hard in the other direction is greater and more urgent now than it was, and will take a longer, consistent effort, to undo. far from impossible, if you commit to it starting now.

I hear you and from what shes said made me reflect on what you'd said to me before. She just cant be there for me in the way I want her to be right now and by adding the pressure will just push her away further.

Im out all day tomorrow and I think that will be good for me.

Yeah I am going to back off now.

Went and asked if she wanted dinner and she said she'd have some if there were leftovers.

I said that I didn't want to add any overwhelming pressure onto her as I know she has a lot on. She said that she just wanted everyone to leave her alone and give her some peace.

She said that I had been overwhelming her and when I mentioned about the two times this week where I've had a lot on she snapped and said not that you know what you're doing and then said she didn't want to talk and that she's been clear in what she's asking for.

It's hard because this week apart from those two times we spent a nice day together Sunday and all this week I've not texted her at all and just left her two it so I really don't know how else I'm overwhelming her but I'm taking it at face value and just going to do my own stuff from now on.

Just got in after being out all day today and she's not home, I think she's down at her parents.

I genuinely think shes really off with me and I'm honestly not sure what's made her go this distant this week. Right now I feel like too much damage has been done but I don't know. Everything in me now is saying that there's no chance for a future with her. But that could just be my anxiety speaking I guess. I just feel like I'm clinging onto nothing you know?

i find this hard to believe  :(

RB, know that we are rooting for you in your goals, and that everyone here understands you are not in the simplest of circumstances.

so i say this gently, as someone who wants you to succeed, but at the same time, is trying to break through to help you do it:

you are behaving as your own worst enemy, working against yourself, when the only thing necessary is to stop trying to force the situation, and back off as far as you possibly can. thats it.

she has said it loudly and clearly and repeatedly. we have said it loudly and clearly and repeatedly. in one moment, you say you get it; in the next moment you keep doubling down, clinging harder, and sabotaging yourself. we arent sure how else to say it. she isnt sure how else to say it.

you know that yesterday wasnt your proudest moment, that it did damage, and that you needed to compensate to try to mitigate it. today youre catastrophizing that shes not at home, shrugging your shoulders about what might have gone wrong.

RB? what are you doing, man?  :hug:

at every step of the way, you have introduced what amounts to an increasing pressure campaign to try to get her back, or try to get her attentiveness. it is repelling her.

the check ins, that she didnt want to do, but reluctantly did. the status of your relationship, which she all but handed you a blueprint to save - i want to stress that part, because most people are not fortunate enough to get it - someone who was committed to a breakup, but told you what would be needed to reconcile, reluctantly, because she didnt trust that you would hear her, but she hoped you would. the festival that she kept trying to find a way out of; when that didnt work, you made your own, in the form of an elaborate gesture that amounted to more pressure. the passive aggression and cutting remarks that have made her feel she has to walk on eggshells in her home.

throughout it all, she has patiently and politely told you all she needs or wants from you is to back off. you havent heeded it. shes at her wits end. that is not a surprising outcome, RB. this isnt about BPD; its about not seeing her as a person, but as someone to regulate your anxieties. this stuff will repel any woman.

it is also all unlearnable behavior. but you have to start, with real commitment.


stop. breathe. give her space. give her so much space. give her an entire solar system.

know that when she is home, that will not have changed. it wont have changed tomorrow, or likely the next day. damage control, and resetting takes time and consistency. you need a solid week of less than zero pressure, and copious space to even begin to undo the damage and affect a new normal. when you feel the need for reassurance, or to regulate, to chase, go anywhere but to her.

this is hard, i know. but youre at a crossroads: your learned behavior and old ways of coping are now working against you, and sabotaging you, and it has forced a confrontation within you. you have, in essence, been putting that on her to solve. she has put it squarely back in your lap, and shes done being gentle. lick your wounds. find that inner strength - the inner strength that initially attracted her in the first place. put the old, childish ways, aside. that inner strength knows how to run the show, if youll let him.

Thank you again for your reply and words I really need to hear.

I really am trying to take on board everything you're saying. I also see the pattern where I'm saying I'm taking on and understanding advice and then backtracking and doing the opposite, I've heard this from my ex too.

It's just so tough. Thinking back to the last breakup I can see that space and looking after myself is the best way forward, it's just hard to navigate this time rough because it all to me right now seems so final.

I really am regretting what I said on Wednesday and although it came from a place of loneliness and hurt due to my family dog being sick and wanting to talk to my ex, the self destructive way I went about it isn't on. I just tend to almost focus on that one moment and think well that's it she hates me now, when I do know that she's said the opposite of that before even explaining how she doesn't think I'll ever understand how much she loves me.

I really will put a huge effort into giving her all the space she needs. I think for me it's the unknowing if we'll ever be together again or the idea she'll be with someone else. I know her physical and mental health right now are her priority and I need to respect that over my anxiety.

I think it's just the fact I'd never been so sure about my life with someone in any relationship prior to this one that's making it harder to not necessarily let go but to sit and be content and accepting of the unknown future ahead and that it might not involve her.

I can see how all my current actions are just pushing her away in ways in which I would never want. So I really will try to dig deep and do what's best for not only me but also for her and what she needs. Like you said it's about seeing her as a person, which in my head I always do but my actions are saying otherwise and like we said before actions speak louder than words.

I think there's bits of this I need to take to my next therapy session next week to try and work through my anxiety a bit.

It's really difficult trying to navigate this. So she came back late last night. I was in bed watching TV and after not seeing her all day Friday and Saturday I thought I might just get a hello, but nothing which is understandable I guess.

This morning I've just got on doing things round the house. I'm just not even sure how to interact with her. I know the best thing is space so I'm going to go for a walk and just leave all communication to come from her. Just very difficult

She came down and said hello and made herself food, she then came down and asked if a delivery had come for her.

Other than that there's no interaction she just stays in her room. I asked how her weekend was and I got a quick "yeah it was good how was yours" but that was it.

I get it's a ask for space, but my God it's hard. Trying to keep myself busy and just act like she's not here. I just wish we could have stayed on the trajectory of doing things together though

Since both of you are seeing therapists, that is good, please continue taking advantage of local in person support since that is better than your peer support alone.

You mentioned once that she mentioned her therapist said there was nothing more to do.  The reality is you don't really know what her therapist tells her, all you know is what she tells you, likely influenced by her own perceptions.  Even normal people find it hard to honestly admit their own foibles and weaknesses, it is even harder for those such as your partner.

its more than an ask. shes forcing it. shes done asking for it.

dont catastrophize that; see it for what it is. just heed it. thats all thats required.


take this idea off of the table for now.

on the trajectory you were on, you were still over-pursuing; she was clearly open to spending time together, but it felt forced, like pushing things into relationship territory, which she wasnt ready for.

you will know that shes ready when she is pushing for that kind of thing. let her lead. let her control the pace. she previously signaled that that would come if you dialed it back.

that isnt on the table at the moment. right now, youre in damage control. i wouldnt just give her space, i would make myself as scarce as humanly possible. i wouldnt even try to apologize or bring it up. if shes hiding in her room, that tells you she doesnt feel comfortable in her own space; id literally leave the house, give her a chance to come out and breathe. you need days in a row here of zero issues before shes willing to poke her head back out, figuratively and literally, and when she does, you cant pounce. dont even flinch. just see it, know it, breathe a sigh of relief, and dont take it as a sign to pursue; take it as a sign to keep giving her space. the more you do that, the more she will warm up.


RB, you have been given what men in your position would kill to have.

she, in a diplomatic, but still very clear way, told you that there was a way back to the relationship. she gave you the blueprint. the reassurance one would need to know things are "working", and to just keep cool? that was it.


anxiety can be self-sabotaging, especially when we act on it. if its hard to hear what shes communicating, hard to give her space, hard not to overwhelm her, that tells you somethings got to give.

if anything, think of it this way: the cause for anxiety right now is acting on the anxiety. the less you do of that, the smoother everything gets, the more, presumably, your anxiety is tamed.


ask your therapist for tools. we have a good one here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

I think I need some advice around one thing in particular.

So over a week or so ago when she was open to spending time with me etc we arranged to go up to London together mid June to watch a play I'd bought her for her birthday. I suggested that we go up and stay overnight which she was happy with.

I text her ages ago asking about booking it off as holiday at work and she said she'd asked about it and it was being sorted.

Now that she's being extremely distant I'm not sure whether to wait and just see what happens closer to the time or ask her if it's am still all good for her to go?

I'm leaning on waiting for a bit as she has a medical appointment this Wednesday to rule out something quite serious which I'm sure shes nervous about.

How should I approach this?

RB, i wouldnt touch it. id treat it as if its a no go.

otherwise, she will bring it up.

Cool, I'll treat it as such.

She still has it in her shared calendar so I'll wait until she brings it up with me

this brings up an important point about anxiety:

if she still has it in her shared calendar, is there a need to bring it up? or is there an urge? and if its an urge, where does that urge come from?

anxiety has a way of never being satisfied. it feeds on itself - its so comforted by reassurance that it needs more and more. in the same way that when we are depressed, our minds will literally dig up all the things it possibly can to be depressed about, anxiety looks for things to be anxious about, and it fixates.

anxiety is "okay" to feel, in that, while no one generally wants to feel that way, in and of itself, it is an ordinary human emotion, one that can even serve us in cases of real harm or danger. and lets face it, youre in an anxiety inducing situation. the issue comes when our anxiety rules us, when we nurture its tendencies, and act in ways that may harm us or be counter to our goals.

anxiety is defeated by reality testing and exposure to the contrary.

"if its on her calendar, that tells me shes intending to go unless she tells me otherwise."

"if shes mad at me and needs space, its because i got pissy and ive overwhelmed her, not because she hates me and all hope is lost. but i get that if i do more of the same, it will overwhelm or provoke her; i dont want to do that, because i can see that its contrary to my goals."

My friend, you're missing the most basic premise of BPD and mental health- her words (and actions) stem from her emotions in the moment.

Surely you've been in the car with a kid that says, "Are we there yet?" or "I'm bored" or "Why can't we stop for ice cream"100 times over a 90-minute drive.  It would make anyone want to pull their hair out and the driver (usually the kid's parent) ends up being so frustrated by the time they get there, the experience is already diminished.

To her, you're the kid in the car asking the same things over and over again.  That's how a "yes" turns into a "no", and it's pushing her away because she feels disrespected.

Now, on the other side of that, I'm so sorry your dog died.  Saying, "don't ask me how my day went" as you're drinking could come across a little harsh, but good gosh dude...you're doing everything for her and deserve a little bit of grace.  Beating yourself up from not being perfect is a large part of the problem here.  And the other side is her mental health, which you have zero control over.

You have to give yourself some grace here, and hopefully she does move out soon.  You're not handling this well, which is perfectly understandable under the circumstances.  But beating yourself up over her being distant just isn't fair; you've done everything right and she's taken advantage at every turn.  It really feels like your frustration here is misplaced.

how are things going RB? any update?

Hello,

I've been a bit radio silent on here mainly because I've gotten to the stage where I truly am just putting myself first and getting myself through to my ex's move out day.

I've been going to my therapy sessions which are helping among other things she feels as though I've switched off my anger emotion to the point where I don't feel or act on it even when it's justified or even needed. So we're doing some exercises around that.

In regards to my ex I've been giving her mountains of space. We did have a chat a while back again where she talked through her needs a little more around independence and no responsibility however some things she said really made it clear for me at least that things she was saying in the beginning don't really seem possible at least to me anyway.

She's acted a whole lot more distant like to me if it continues like this I can't even see there being able to be a friendship when she's moved out so I'm not sure where her heads at. She sometimes comes in and never says hello, leaves and never says goodbye and never texts or even reads my messages after she's messaged me about something.

I'm feeling more centered and trying to sort out my life. I still have days where I'm just sad and grieving the relationship that we had and the future of marriage etc but it is what it is now and I can't chase someone who right now atleast isn't giving me any clear signals she wants me in her life.

great strides. this seems like something youre going to just have to ride out. the absence of tension/conflict is your friend, but it may take more time to affect a real reset.


is this still set to happen as far as you know?

So as far as I know it's going ahead. It's all booked and she has it in her calendar.

However the joint calendar is directly linked to her work shifts, so any time off booked shoes up automatically when it's approved.

Earlier she said it was all fine, however the leave isn't on the calendar just her shifts.

I'd like to think she'll come to me about it a good time beforehand as she knows I was booking a hotel etc.

I'm happy to wait and see what happens. I'll be disappointed if it doesn't go ahead. However with the distance recently it seems unlikely from my PoV