BPDFamily.com

Thanks all for your comments! I'm processing what you've said and will revert.

Lawyers, and advocates are calling eachother having discussions, and making recommendations. See below

"As discussed, Counsel agrees that we should not proceed with an order for contempt but that we should rather agree to collaboratively prepare a new parenting plan which we will make an order of court. If we cannot agree, or if there is no compliance, then we can reinstate the application for contempt.  I have explained to you the reasons for this.

I understand that you want us to ask Moselle ex for an order by consent in which she confirms that she is in contempt but suspends the consequences of the order whilst we agree a parenting plan.  I can put this to her but I do not recommend it and nor does counsel and it may be detrimental to what you are ultimately wanting to achieve ie care of your children going forward in the long term. "

In any event, I will wait to hear from you regarding your instructions on how to respond to Moselle Ex's attorneys."

My ex is also properly dysregulated right now. I can tell because the children are not taking my calls.

Some risks:
- She throws her lawyer out "because I've charmed her in to taking my side" or some similar nonsense. She fired one once for talking to me. I would be a pity, this one seems realistic and reasonable.
- Indeed, as L&L says, she is highly likely to run (done it before, kidnapping my kids originally).
- She is capable of violence. She is like a cornered rat right now. There is one fact about cornered rats. They bite.

Regards,
Moselle

---

Mod note: Topic continued from Part 2 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=321422.0;all)

I would suggest focusing on what you believe is best for the children. Having the court make ex do things to make things right is not something I saw the courts do. I was in court for about 5 years and then things started to settle down.
The biggest reason was two fold: ex wasn't "winning" in court anymore and I finally was able to get 50/50 so, in exes' mind, she no longer had power over me. We were in a custody eval meeting when I realized how much she "needed" to have that power. She became very desperate when she began to realize she wasn't going to win. She actually threatened the evaluator with jail time ? I sat there and listened. The evaluator handled it well and remained calm. I realized ex completely lost it right then and there as far as the evaluation was going to go. The evaluator recommended every single thing I was requesting from the courts even though it was not what he would have suggested. He challenged me about a few things. I gave him reasonable answers and I believe he deferred to my judgement since I remained calm and stayed focused on the kids. I let him handle exes' accusations. If he wanted an explanation from me I gave it. If he didn't ask me anything I let it go just like he was. A big part was I was calm and did not react to anything ex said/did. I wasn't part of the problem.
The courts never tried to address any wrongs towards me by ex. Even if it was a week ago the courts handled it like let bygones be bygones.

Why on earth would you "give up a contempt order"... .when you are just about to get one?

Isn't that leverage in your legal system?

I would ask very detailed questions about why your lawyer thinks it wise to skip a contempt hearing you are sure to win... .at first glance... to me... .that seems like rescuing defeat from the jaws of victory.

Yes... .you want effective parenting.  That's NOT going to happen without consequences!  Does your L understand that?

So... .this may be the first of several contempt orders that it "takes"... .I would be reluctant to give it up

Now... .if she agrees to a parenting plan that is wonderful... .has consequences... .basically everything else you want... .but for some reason... .doesn't want contempt... well... maybe.

Make sure consequences are written into any new plan.

FF

True... .very true.

But in this case they would bite you AND the court.  You guys can bite back.

FF

If your L and Ex's L are saying that the contempt charge won't be pursued in favor of a new parenting plan, and the expectation is that you will drop the upcoming scheduled appearance, you are taking a HUGE RISK that your Ex and her L will then take their sweet time in putting together and agreeing on the parenting plan.

So, can you tell Ex's L that you will hold the April court appearance, and if the parenting plan in not in place and signed at that time, your intent is that the appearance will take place?

Getting a Contempt decision is a landmark event, it dings her perceived parenting and can be referenced in the future.  Right now, what is parenting like?  Is it equal time or does one parent have majority time?  Do you have Decision Making or Tie Breaker status?

How would letting her skate on the Contempt charge encourage a better parenting plan?  Many here have been jaded by lawyers wanting to make deals that end up being weaker than we wished.  I recall the time post-divorce when I filed CC and my lawyer literally said it was a slam dunk.  However, it was within weeks of the final decree.  The magistrate surprised him by ruling the old two-year temp order she was non-compliant with was no longer in effect and the new final order she was non-compliant with (vacation notice by Feb 15) was too new to have the 'ability' to comply with since she didn't have the full amount of time to do the paperwork (final order March 5 specified less advance time, 30 days advance notice but she had left on vacation about 2 weeks after that).  Well, she didn't even try to comply with either order regarding notice of vacation but the magistrate ignored that.  Since lawyer was stunned, I figured the magistrate performed mental gymnastics to arrive at that decision.

Yes, courts and lawyers love it when deals are brokered.  Is your lawyer more comfortable with settlements than moving ahead to arguing a case in court?  Or maybe he's thinking a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush?

I would agree having the parenting plan in place before dropping the contempt charges, if that is an idea. Dropping with just a promise is a good strategy for the other side.

I filed against my ex because she would not agree to a summer schedule which was 50/50. I let her make the schedule so she felt in charge. It seemed much easier. Her first schedule was 70/30 in her favor. This was all in emails. Her second proposal was 80/20 in her favor. I filed togo to court. The day before the hearing ex set up a mediation to resolve the issue. I spent around three hours going round and round with no agreement. The mediator put us in separate rooms. At that point I realized ex would not agree with anything I proposed so I agreed with everything ex said she wanted when we were in the room together. The mediator looked at me kind of puzzled because I offered her a bet that ex would say no. We went in the room together, the mediator explained that I was agreeing with everything ex said she wanted, and ex said no. It was then that I stood up and said I was leaving. Went to court the next day ex had a schedule that followed the court order exactly, 50/50. I was out the door in about 20 minutes. Reality has nothing to do with dealing with BPD. It was all about my exes' feelings until reality was going to slap her in the face, figuratively speaking. Then she had to reverse course and do what she was supposed to do. It's the same as dealing with a small child.

Is there a hard deadline for this parenting plan to go into effect? If you give up 4/24 date, does that mean you lose this impending court date as leverage?


Being able to reinstate the application for contempt sounds fine for two reasonable people. It seems like your struggle at this point could turn into obstruction, stonewalling, etc. Do you feel prepared to give up the 4/24 trial date in exchange for what could be protracted negotiations (including those that are beyond your control, like getting things on the court calendar)?


david gives really good advice on this. It's hard to give up the dream that courts will deliver justice (e.g. getting an apology for bad behavior), or promises to behave better in the future).

The best you may get at this point is court-ordered leverage (like deadlines for y if x occurs), and consequences for non-compliance, plus a reasonable attorney who is attempting (for now) to get his client in line.

Looking at her history (if I am remembering this correctly), when confronted with the prospect of going to jail for being in contempt, her behavior escalated (false allegations of sexual impropriety). Her L has implied that she does not seem to understand the seriousness of her situation. She has a family of negative advocates who may be fanning the narrative of sexual abuse (it has happened in their family, they are likely to believe this). She has left with the kids before and cut contact.

Is it possible she might be experiencing psychosis? In which case, maybe it's worth running through two or three contingency plans:

*what happens if she fires her lawyer, how to get what's best for you and the kids in case this happens
*what happens if she takes the kids, what can you do to make sure she doesn't leave the country and/or draw up emergency orders with consequences if that happens
*what happens if she stonewalls once the 4/24 trial date is dropped, how long before you will get something on the calendar, and what happens at that point and in the interim

@formflier
I decided to make the center of gravity, getting access to the children and a social worker involved. She is a specialist well known to the courts here, who I researched beforehand and specified in the Parenting plan.
I've also specified strict deliverables and deadlines failing which the contempt charge is reinstated.

At this stage I decided to take the moral high ground and not take the risk of looking like the vindictive ex-husband trying to get his ex-wife charged with a crime.

These are my objectives:

1.   To have a constructive and loving relationship with each of my children.
2.   Civil and cooperative communication with ex-wife on matters regarding the children.
3.   For all parties to abide by the court orders currently in place.

I also thought if I get her convicted, she will use it to alienate the children further... .":)o you know what your father did?"

Her lawyer is clearly nervous about it as she has admittedly no cogent defense. I'm using that to get what I want. Once I have the contempt charge where is my leverage? (If she breaks it, I then look like the bad guy again to the children for having her arrested)

It might be counter-intuitive as my initial instinct is to go for the jugular, but on reflection, I believe this is the right way. It shows reasonableness to the court, who finds my rather detailed parenting plan tedious in the first place :-)

I know what games my ex likes to play, so I can focus on neutralizing those in a new steamlined plan.

@SlyQQ
Yes, that's it. Thanks SlyQQ

Full custody is the long plan. I want the children to open up to me. They aren't yet?

@formflier
I settled on this in the end. I already have her deposed to that abuse stuff already.  Only she now says she was pressured into saying it. She now confirms all of that.

“I confirm the contents of the affidavit I previously deposed to on oath dated 31 October 2016 which is attached hereto marked “A”.
I further recant all statements I have made which allege any sexual impropriety by Moselle towards our daughters, D17, D13, and D8. I affirm that during our marriage he was, and still is, a caring and devoted father towards them.”

@panda
Thanks Panda, that's where I went with this!

So... .you have a new signed parenting plan or will have one before the contempt charge is dropped or the court date given up?

I didn't see that detail... .

or

Have you agreed that you will agree soon on a new parenting plan?

FF

@livednlearned
Yes, she is currently seriously dysregulated. I have given her a very black and white series of deliveries and deadlines to meet.

If she does not pitch on 24th, or breaks any of the court orders, we go onto the emergency roll. Amazingly, last time we were before a judge in three days. They will likely not be amused if she doesn't pitch for her contempt hearing.

The young and inexperienced curator-ad-litem appointed by the court was a disaster, she, bless her cotton socks, challenged the family advocate, my parenting and suggested supervised parenting based on my ex's lies. This was also based on some spurious sexual touching lies coached to the girls. I was fortunately able to counter that with testimony by my mother who has been there every minute (deliberately), but the risk is that the court listens to the curator, not the family advocate who ruled in my favour.

The lawyers want to put some time between the curator's report and any application for contempt in the future. (ie why would a reasonable mother agree to a new parenting plan with a father getting more time with the children if any of the allegations were true). It strengthens my case. I also have a specialist social worker, mandated in this "deal", who will hopefully be another specialist testimony in my favour, and in contrast to the curator who has no social work specialization. The social worker is well known to the courts and very reputable.


The children aren't ready for this yet. Curator's report threw water on this possibility for now. The fight is to rebuild the relationship with the girls, and get a specialist to recommend 50/50. That's the best I can do for now. I cant do more than 50/50, yet. I need the two weeks for work travel
  
I left this out in the end

Yes I think there's "guilty", but I'm told by the lawyers they are loathe to convict a mother due to parenting plan violation. She has to pull a gun or something really stupid.

We are temporarily suspending it, contingent upon certain deliverables, and 100% compliance with the court order. Even if I get a conviction, then what? I have to enforce it and get her arrested. The children will hate me for it. Its against my goals... .for now.

She is likely to comply for 3 or 4 weeks, to get the new parenting plan in place, thereafter, she is likely to break the deal. It will mean automatic reinstatement of the contempt charge. this seems to be a common thing. It can be heard very quickly by a high court judge. Max a week. Amazing actually. Then what can she say? She's absolutely done at that point. Or if she keeps to plan, great. I win both ways.

No :-)

I went for the emotional health.


I didn't know there were such data bases. I've allowed the passports to expire. She asked for my signature I said "no"

Contempt charges reinstated. Before a judge in less than a week.

I went for the rush tactic (instead of wordsmithing) on this one. I've given her the wording, vetted by my lawyer. Her deadline is tomorrow at 5pm. No affidavit? she's in court for contempt on Tuesday .

Yes indeed 

I'm a great father, and good for the girls. She knows that. Whether she listens or not, is immaterial now. If she breaks the parenting plan, she's in court within a week for contempt. Eventually the courts will lose their patience. Especially if I've been reasonable

I felt the tide begin to turn last year October when the family advocate ruled in my favour. Can you be more specific about how you did that?


Yes, the big stick which her lawyer is scared about because they have no case, is the potential contempt charge. It's actually worth more to me as a threat than an actual charge. I don't have to execute the arrest this way.

I'm much more comfortable, given the additional details you provided.  I think you have struck a smart balance... and put her in a position, that she likely doesn't understand she is in... yet. 

She may realize that the next time she "tries" to break the plan.

FF

@livednlearned
Indeed,

She's  dysregulated, that is crazy and traumatic for my kids to see. Her husband is just as cracked unfortunately! This is about getting to an equilibrium, minimizing the damage and trauma. The equilibrium is observance of the parenting plan, monitoring by a social worker, with the knowledge that if she goes into breach she will be before a judge on contempt within a week. If that can be achieved. It's a success.

I actually wish she would get treatment for her problems. I don't want the drama.

@Gagrl
She is confused and disoriented in the courtroom. Outside, she is aggressive and and shouts.

@formflier
This is counter intuitive. It's more valuable to me as a threat at the moment as a consequence to breach of the new plan.

If I am awarded a contempt charge, then I am responsible for executing the arrest warrant. How will that look to the children? and what distress will that cause them?

It may be different in 6 months time.

@Gagrl
It's not dropped. It is temporarily suspended until 24 May. It's very clear. If she does not present her proposed changes by 4 May and we do not have an agreed new plan by 24 May, under the supervision of a social worker who I have selected, after evaluating the children, the charges are reinstated, and on the emergency roll to be heard within a week of 24 May. Last time was within 3 days.

In the meantime (between now and 24 May) I will have my visitation doubled, she agrees to allow me to have a trained family counselor (which she refused 6 weeks ago) to facilitate the relationship between the children and I.

If she doesn't agree, we got to court on contempt charges or we ask the judge to order this reasonable way forward. I actually prefer the second at this point. It has less drama.

@ForeverDadYes, it is a landmark event. And we are not ruling it out. We are building more credibility with the court. I am 100% sure she will not keep to the plan within 6 weeks

She has primary care and I have every second weekend. Joint guardianship (so decision making). This was because I lived in another city at the time of divorce. I've since moved to the same city, so I want 50/50.


They are nervous of the curator-ad-litem's report. It was a shocker. sexual abuse allegations by the children etc etc. Completely fabricated but potentially damaging in judges's eyes. I have my mother's testimony to oppose it, but they want it cleaner. If I can get a specialist already well known by the courts to side with the family advocate, who ruled in my favour having heard all the sexual nonsense from the children and ex, then we are in a stronger position. Also, having alleged this nonsense, why would a mother then sign a new parenting plan with more time to me. It takes the wind out of her sail.

She is also signing this: (failure to sign means contempt of court on Tuesday)

“I confirm the contents of the affidavit I previously deposed to on oath dated 31 October 2016 which is attached hereto marked “A”. (this is damning document which she signed in 2016 admitting to mental illness Borderline and a few others, and to abusing both me and the children)

I further recant all statements I have made which allege any sexual impropriety by Moselle towards our daughters, D17, D13, and D8. I affirm that during our marriage he was, and still is, a caring and devoted father towards them.”

@David
Yes, any breaches or failure to comply with the order and it immediately become reinstated, and before a judge within a week.

Whew I want to thank all of you for your input, and for preparing me so well! It is massively helpful. I really appreciate ALL of it!

     


@livednlearned
A very useful exercise. Thank you

Yes she is psychotic.

*what happens if she fires her lawyer, how to get what's best for you and the kids in case this happens.

If she fires her lawyer, we go to court on contempt on Tuesday because it means she breaches the deadline conditions which start tomorrow. She will ask for more time, to appoint a new lawyer. We ask for an immediate intervention by the social worker, as we believe she is currently psychotic and push for custody based on the social worker's report? (It is quite likely that she fires her actually. Her lawyer will be seen as a traitor to her. She has fired other lawyers for much less), but it also means she goes to high court alone without an advocate because last time her advocate told her that if she breaches again, he steps down and refuses to act for her (this was told to my advocate)

*what happens if she takes the kids, what can you do to make sure she doesn't leave the country and/or draw up emergency orders with consequences if that happens

Unlikely at this point. Her husband has a business and 4 children here, and the children's passport have expired. She may have forged my signature on the application. I will look into a database of children which red flag if they try to leave.

We will also ask the judge to rule that the children do not leave the province.

*what happens if she stonewalls once the 4/24 trial date is dropped, how long before you will get something on the calendar, and what happens at that point and in the interim.

If she is about to go ape, we will know tomorrow at 5pm when she misses her first deadline, and we prepare for court on Tuesday. If she agrees to the short term items and stonewalls on the 24th, she is in court within a week on the "urgent" roll.

If she does not appear, we will ask for her to be sentenced in absentia.

" civil and cooperative communication... ." Make sure you get, in the order, how that communication is to be done. I have email only communication written in our order. Ex has tried calling, texting, walking out to my car when I come to pick our boys yup, etc. I don't answer my phone if she calls, I don't even open a text from her, I have a video camera that she knows I have when she walks towards me. The camera stopped her approaching me.
There are emails that are not civil or cooperative in any way. I save them all just in case I need them for court. Some are very illogical that attempt to argue with me and take both sides of an argument as her rationale. I don't engage with the crazy and stay focused on the part that involves our boys.

Thanks David, that's a very good point.

She has not said, emailed or Whatsapped a word to me for 12 months. She knows she cannot do it without going ape. I will be careful to include that wording for when she starts.

I have heard that some jurisdictions mandate use of an app that "proves" when something was sent, read and replied to... .

Perhaps you have access to something like that over there.  That way there is no doubt to anyone... who said what and when.

FF

Yes, I have heard of that. Thanks so much for the reminder.

This is one used frequently here by others

https://d6.co.za/education/downloads/

I always assume my emails will be in court for a judge to see. I keep them focused on our boys. I do not respond to any accusations.
I have emails that have parts that are capitalized. You can tell, by the context, that she is yelling at me. I couldn't believe  the first one but after the second one came I simply laugh.
 
I have some that ex tries to change the court order or doesn't follow the order. I simply state the order.

One time I received a call from our oldest sons school. He was nauseous and had a fever. The nurse said she called his mom several times and left a message. It was her custodial time. I told the nurse I would pick him up.  We got home and he went to bed. I emailed ex with all the symptoms, she is a nurse, and told her if anything changed I would email her again. I received an email later that day from ex demanding I return her son because it was her custodial time. I replied with his current symptoms and said I would make an appointment with the doc if I thought that was necessary the next morning. I said I would not be getting him out of bed unless I thought he needed to see a doctor. I received a call from the police a few hours later wanting to hear my side of the story. I explained pretty much what happened. The officer completely understood. I was asked to reach out to ex so I sent another email telling her what transpired. Ex sent an email to her attorney and cc'd it to me. She told her attorney that I was in violation of the court order and she wanted to go back to court to take my custodial time away. I viewed it as a children's scare tactic and ignored it. Never heard anything about it again. Kinda wished she took me to court over that one. I would have suggested counseling for her if I did anything.

Update:

Her attorney has sent an email saying they have not had contact from my ex or her husband since monday. If they do not hear from them by 12:00 Monday, they are withdrawing as attorneys of record. I think they want out, for obvious reasons.


Very wise

The joys


My ex has a saying for this which she used to tell me all the time. "All pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others". i.e. she can break all the court orders at will, but if I so much as slip up once, she sends the police.

What happens to the court appearance if the Ex's attorneys withdraw?

You and your attorney would still appear, right?

Is this legal in your country?  What does you attorney say about this?

What I'm used to is an attorney must petition or ask permission to withdraw, it's not something they can unilaterally do.

FF

Yes, she has not opposed the contempt application. Strictly legally, they should grant a conviction of contempt. She's stalling. She will ask for leave to get a new attorney. And ask for a new date. I'm guessing that's what she'll do.

I'm not sure how the judge will handle it. The lawyer will serve my ex on monday (claiming no communication), and will have to ask the judge to be removed as attorney of record on Tuesday.

I'm guessing that my ex is 80% likely at this stage, for a no show at her trial. 

It's times like this that convince me that my ex does have a sense of right and wrong or at least knows her behavior can have a consequence if viewed by others.

She knows right from wrong. It just only applies to you

Can you ask your L is there is a way to "oppose" the L being removed... .so the L must show, regardless of whether or not your ex does?

Do you guys have "proof of service"... .so that she knows about the court date? 

FF

I was in court once. My ex was on the stand and told a big lie. I had no proof that she was lying. She was looking in my direction, I guess, to see my response. I grabbed a piece of empty paper and gave it to my attorney. I leaned over and said to my attorney that ex was lying. I pointed to the blank piece of paper. Miraculously, ex twisted her story to change it to the truth.
That was the point where I decided to never believe a word out of her mouth. It made it so much easier to reply in emails since I just replied to facts that followed our court order. I rarely stray from the order but when I do I have a good reason that I am sure a judge would agree with. Just like the story prior when our one son was sick at school.

Your story gives me an idea. I have an affidavit written by her where she admits to numerous mental disorders including BPD, GAD, etc, and to abusing me and the children both physically and emotionally.

If my lawyer presents this this "piece of paper" in court on Tuesday saying in light of the sudden radio silence by her, we believe from experiece that she is having a psychotic episode, and we are concerned for the welfare of the children. Please order immediate interviews in the home with the children by the social worker named in the parenting plan.

I could get the social worker in there whilst she is having a psychotic episode.

The risk is that it will send her even further into the stratosphere if she's in court on Tuesday.

Any thoughts on the merit of this idea?

date=1524262537]
Can you ask your L is there is a way to "oppose" the L being removed... .so the L must show, regardless of whether or not your ex does?

Do you guys have "proof of service"... .so that she knows about the court date?  

FF
[/quote]

Yes .I'm sure we could refuse to accept an email. Her question was "Will we accept an email as proof of withdrawal?". We could say "no".  They 've given a deadline of 12:00 monday for communication and instruction with ex.

So you're thinking this is ex's way to obstruct the case, expecting the court to grant a continuance to allow her time to get a new lawyer and bring them up to speed on the case?  Ugh.  Is this ex's first attempt to delay?  Often the court will grant delays, once or twice, but after that the court will get peeved.

It's possible she may get a continuance to delay the case while she gets a new lawyer.  But expect the new lawyer to ask at the last minute for another continuance... ."I was just now hired and need more time to review the case."

Your lawyer ought to resist any withdrawal or continuance but I guess it's up to court to rule... .

What precisely are the consequences of being 'convicted' of Contempt of Court?  Is it a felony, misdemeanor or neither?  I did a quickie internet search (yes, totally not a 100% reliable answer) and it said CC is generally not considered a criminal offense but sanctions could be criminal or civil.

In my area I think it's something like up to 30 days in jail or perhaps a $$$ fine  Also possible are court ordered make up parenting time, etc.  Come on, do you really believe a judge would send a mother to jail?  Almost surely not on a first offense or even a second offense.  It might be $$$ fine, suspended, court costs, legal costs or maybe just a lecture.  Mother's claim "Oh look what your father did to me and made me a felon/criminal!"  Are the children that gullible?  Then that's more alienation.  My point is you can't control what she claims to the kids anyway.

I'm jaded.  I admit it.  Trying to appease the beast just enables more snarling later.  I've been there, done that.  I think I had  one or two CC cases during the divorce process, both set aside pending the trial.  If I had gotten a ruling then I couldn't have used them in the trial since they would then be considered 'addressed'.  Then there was one after the final decree my lawyer was sure we'd win and the magistrate ruled she didn't "technically" CC because she had an "inability to comply".  No she didn't, she didn't even try to comply with either the old order or the new order.  Magistrate decided that way because the temp order had ended and the final order was just weeks old.  I finally decided, I will do what I gotta do and let the outcome fall where it may.  Sorry if I'm a bit short here, I just feel going soft on her will feed her belief she can continue to bluff and flummox you and push off consequences.  (For most of us it's not often we can manage to establish or prove Contempt of Court.)

I'm jaded too. But this is a new court case, new judges. I cant let my jadedness appear as a vindictive, paranoid, impatient spouse, wanting a conviction.

So we found out why there was no response to her lawyers. She was out of the country for the last week!. My D17 lied to me yesterday saying "Mom left this morning for a local photoshoot at 9 am, and will be be back later. When I dropped them off last night, I went in to find that the grandparents were staying there, pretending that ex and her husband were there all along. And they've done it for the whole week. I stayed calm told them that what they are doing is illegal, and left.

Spoke to the lawyers, they are becoming more bullish with the latest developments. They're going for contempt on tuesday, after this latest breach of first right of refusal. 

I've been to the airport this morning to lodge the children's names and that I do NOT allow them to leave the country, in case there is a plan to spirit the girls out to wherever their mother is. They said I need to get a court order to make it permanent, which I will do tomorrow.

Anxious times!

I would be very surprised if ex shows up to court tomorrow, after her lawyer withdraws today. If she is not there, I have arranged that the school with phone me to tell me if the children are in   school or not. If not, I will go to the airport

History: She's kidnapped them once already - April 2016, with the kids lying to me on that occasion as well.

I'm not appeasing the beast. I'm showing the court that I have the children's interests at heart, and being reasonable in the face of ridiculous unreasonableness.

I hope this strategy pays off. If not, I will change it.

Sounds like you're on track! |iiii

As I've often written... .with education, improved skills and information then we can make more informed and more confident decisions.

Thanks ForeverDad and all the other contributors. The education has been from you all.

I'm feeling confident for tomorrow, and will radically accept the developments as they unfold. Making adjustments accordingly.

Wishing you the best.  Fingers crossed that your outcome helps move things in a better direction.

FF

Family court wants both parents to agree to something. If that isn't possible they want one parent making reasonable requests.
Something I learned, courts view verbal testimony on one tier and documented evidence on a higher tier. If evidence is produced in court, it must be put into evidence and there is a procedure. It slows things down but holds more weight than verbal testimony. Your affidavit would, I believe, be such evidence. The judge has little choice but to agree with you if you make a request based on the evidence presented. If he/she doesn't and something goes terribly wrong then guess who is to blame. Judges cover their butts whenever they can because of that. They don't like bad publicity.
Hope things go well.

Thanks for the good wishes


Yes I can see that.

Short update:

I ensured we were reasonable and civil today. They (ex and hubby) of course, weren't.

We asked for judgement, and they applied for a postponement on the basis of hiring a new lawyer. So the reason the lawyer withdrew was because ex and hubby wanted to oppose the application of contempt and she favored a deal. Given they have no case whatsoever (in their lawyer's view). She favored a reasonable deal, which we were amenable to. Instead they asked for leave to oppose. Which the judge granted.

However, he also granted me everything we asked for, including an investigation by a specialist social worker.  I will need to be on best form there. It's a risk, but one I am willing to take.

Not happy that we didn't get judgement, but now that they want to formally oppose, with drivel as a defense. It will make them look stupid to the court. Secondly, I can't imagine a lawyer willing to take up the fight from a no-win position. We shall see, I know there is more joy to come. She will likely hire a nasty lawyer this time who wants to play dirty. So be it.

They raised sexual abuse again, and tried to block my visitation, the judge said. I've been a judge for 40 years. I am not taking sides, however I warn you that you need to stop poisoning your children's minds against the other ex-spouse. Almost without exception this will back fire against you. The children will grow into adults and with adulthood, comes perspective. They will not want anything to do with you.

When I looked over to my ex, her husband glowered at me with the expression "Yes, see, what's going to happen to you?"

I guess you can't argue with stupid.

Glowered.  Been there, done that.

The last time I was in court, some 4 years ago, for a two day trial where I already had custody but was seeking majority time previously denied me, ex's lawyer's aide glowered at me, even sniped me when the lawyers had walked out, "How can you do this to a mother?"  Yeah, with the only information source being my ex, no wonder she glowered.  Sadly, even all the testimony including ex screaming on phone calls about exchanges didn't impact her.  Some people are so emotionally gullible when influenced by Masters of Alternate History.

Oh, and to set history straight.  I got 22% time in two temp orders covering more than two years after we separated, this was when nothing negative was documented against me.  After this case in court my ex, looking very bad in the decision, was reduced to 25% time overall.  So who got fair treatment based on documentation?

Sounds like the judge got it. However, he has to follow the law and can't just tell either person they are stupid. If they do that they can get in trouble. They are supposed to be impartial but by what he said he was telling ex what his experience has shown him. Sadly, it probably went on deaf ears.
My story started in 2007 and eventually everyone figured ex out in the courts. I was an EOW dad and now have 50/50 legally but have more time than that since ex gives me more time. Lately she started fighting the extra time ? even though she is offering it to me ? I don't argue but I do save the emails. It used to be said on this site a lot, "negative engagement is still engagement." The more you deal with this the better the understanding of that statement becomes. I don't engage anymore and only communicate through email. I don't take any of the bait she lays out. I only discuss the specific issue about our boys. It only consists of scheduling for holidays and things like that. This last Christmas and this last Easter ex tried to make an issue of the schedule. It is spelled out in court but ex "fails" to understand.

So... .did the affidavit get put into evidence where she said she "didn't mean it" with regards to sex abuse or whatever they are claiming?

I'm assuming the judge granted everything you wanted "except" the judgment?

What is the date to proceed about the judgment?

FF

No, she did not recant her statement. But the judge indicated to her that "I see your game".

They children have already been interviewed by the family advocate specifically on sexual abuse. And they put no restrictions on me.

I need a second social worker professional to do the same (by someone well known at this court)  and they'll feel comfortable that they are covered in the event something goes wrong.

They can say two professionals came to the same conclusion. That's why I allowed unrestricted access.

They are covering themselves.

All of this strengthens the likelihood that I get a conviction. The sexual abuse charges, the ridiculous opposition. It's all nefarious and today was the clearest indication that the judge is noticing the pattern. One one side clean hands, cooperation and reasonable behaviour. On the other side lawyers mysteriosuly withdrawing, postponement, disorganization, fake sexual abuse allegations, gross unreasonableness.

A picture emerges.

Hey... .didn't she sign a piece of paper that says she made some stuff up... .or am I remembering that incorrectly?

I thought at some point that paper signed by her might be introduced as evidence.

FF

The court system is very slow. In a sense, that does help with making the correct decision. The downside is the kids have to deal with this until things settle down. It took me close to four years until the courts realized who the problem was. Cost a lot of money to get there.

Since we are being openly jaded here 

I found that court takes more seriously defiance toward court than defiance between exes.

Even though the judge scolded your ex, and even though common sense suggests the judge is aware of her shenanigans, something glacial and slow may still occur because legal technicalities and norms dictate.

It's like turning a large boat. It can feel like forever to get things turned around and pointed in the right direction

What is encouraging about your story is that you seem to be headed that way.
 

 :) :) :)

I'm feeling less jaded today. I have had two good days of communication with my children, and they seem happy and chatty.

I even sent a "thank you, and keep it up" note to the source of my jadedness. I'm trying to treat her like I would a two year old. Encourage the heck out of anything positive she does, and not react when she tantrums


Yes, thank you. Its huge when a judge over-rules an allegation of sexual abuse, and allows contact (he would not take that risk unless he was 100% sure). It says something to me about the ship that's turning.


It sounds like the children are relieved. The court has mandated visitation, so they didn't have to tell mom they wanted it, and suffer her wrath. They were friendly and chatty yesterday and today, and I know for a fact that ex and her husband were totally dysregulated since the court outcome. His ex sent me the emails he sent her. He was blaming her (bizarrely) for the outcome of court, because she was the one who told me that they had skipped the country  . As I said before, you can't talk to stupid.

The sexual abuse thing was their last and ONLY hope - and it got crushed. |iiii


Yes, it was submitted with the founding affidavit. I shall quote her:

"I misled the family advocate in that Moselle was not diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Dr X "

"In fact I was diagnosed with Borderline personality, Narcissitic traits, GAD, Impulse control disorder and eating disorder, by my Psychiatrist"

"As a result of these maladies, I was both physically and emotionally abusive to my husband the children"

You'll be amazed how little attention this gets. She confesses under oath to lying, being mentally ill and physically and emotionally abusive. It has not come up once, by any judge.

Has that affidavit been submitted as evidence?  Is it part of the official record?

I would think, that as part of a "solution" that an official diagnosis would have an officially mandated (court ordered) "participation" in treatment.

I realize that you can't label people as bad because they have a mental illness, but someone with a mental illness, that is displaying the standard behaviors and is refusing to participate in treatment... .that seems to be screaming for a solution.

How does your L see that?  What do the courts there generally do with that?

Really glad you had chatty time with kids.


FF

Wow.

I imagine that judges and others see such chronic human nuttery, day in and day out, that it must become somewhat numbing?



Spending so much time in court, waiting for my turn on the docket, made me realize that things could be so much more worse.

I even printed it out again and gave it to.the advocate to use on Tuesday to counter the tomfoolery of sexual abuse nonsense. Re-frame it saying there's no evidence of any kind of abuse by Moselle, but there is a signed confession of lies, .mental illness and physical and.emotional abuse by ex wife of Moselle.

Maybe the court expects tit for tat accusations and she wanted to take.the high road and allow the ex to look accusatory.

We got the outcome so I can't complain, but sometimes i want to shake these people up who ignore the abuse for the sake of expediency.


Yes. And I agree.

They don't seem to take any notice unless there is a specialist in court telling them these things and making a recommendation

Judges and lawyers are not psychologists and they seem to demonstrate no interest in understanding mental illness. It's a pity as I would  estimate a significant percentage perpetrators to have traits of mental illness.

I recall when I was last in court, I had filed various documents with my initial motion or petition.  I think they were about child support, income or something similar.  Yet the decision stated I hadn't submitted or made that request.  I suspect that the magistrate didn't go back to the original petition, filed over a year before, and review what was filed with it.  The point may be that you have to re-submit that statement as testimony or evidence while at the court and it is "on the record".  Don't assume.  If the repetition is not needed, the judge will say so.

Would you consider hiring an expert witness to testify?

I believe court makes rulings on a case by case set of evidence, provided by you and your ex, so if there is no expert to testify to what effect these diagnoses impact the kids, then the court will not draw conclusions.

I remember Matt, a long-time member here, often made this point. He was falsely accused of DV and spent time in jail. Eventually a custody evaluation was done, including a psychiatric evaluation using the MMPI-2. That produced a BPD diagnosis for his stbx wife, among other things, but he had to have an expert psychologist connect the dots for the judge, if I am remembering all of this correctly.

Thanks L&L, that is a hugely valid point. That would be very useful - her explain to the court, why the children might mislead investigators (aka lie) for my ex.

That's the first I have heard of MMPI-2. It look very interesting.

I was in touch with the specialist today. She is all set to start with initial investigations with ex tomorrow.

I am wondering what to say to her. Discuss the diagnoses, discuss the children, play recordings of ex raging, and children beggin me to do what she is screaming about (ie pleasing)?

Above all, focus on having a loving relationship with your kids. That, and you welcome any suggestions from her about how to do that under the current circumstances. Talk about your belief that the kids need counseling, mention counseling if you are participating in any. Check with your L about all of this, too.

When I met with the parenting coordinator involved in my case (a child psychologist who had an extension of judicial duties, which is offered in some states in the US but not others ), I focused on then S11's well-being, and discussed ways in which I felt it was difficult to get his needs met in the current coparenting situation, and did the PC have suggestions based on what she knew about our case, or did she need additional information, and what type of information did she prefer? I followed her lead.

Your situation is a bit different because there are false allegations out there. And you have a written affidavit about ex's diagnoses.

I might let the affidavit speak for itself, and use your time to follow the evaluator's lead on what she wants to know more about.

My PC ended up saying very kind things about me when she testified, but when we first met, I could not make heads nor tails about what she thought. She was very professional and aloof -- no chinks in the armor. During our initial intake, we spent some time talking about my concerns about how S11 was doing, who he was seeing for therapy, how he seemed to be doing, some worrisome behaviors (e.g. nervous tics, stomachaches, etc.), as well as my hope that working with her might help S11's dad and I focus on different therapies and possibly medication recommended by a psychiatrist and psychologist who evaluated our son.

Then I left with her a binder of emails so she could get a sense of what our communication issues were.

I did less talking about n/BPDx, although I did use some phrases like "walking on eggshells," and "high conflict" and "fear of abandonment," and I said I was trying to figure out how to parent S11, and was open to suggestions.

Reading the jujitsu article again might help you here :)

Many times it is done in concert with another test call PAI.

https://www.parinc.com/products/pkey/287

The cool thing about these tests is somehow there is a score given to tell if the test is "valid" or if someone is gaming the test.

There are lots of questions.

FF

A deception score!

I think I did these tests or something similar when I first split up. I thought I was a sex pest, Narcissist, Borderline, the whole bang shoot. My ex, her mother, and her family's psych had convinced me that I was the one causing all the problems. I asked for my Narcissistic score (I actually thought it would be high). It was low and so was my deception score. My BPD score was medium . I'm thinking from the fleas of living with my ex and my mom. :) :) :) Either that or I'm the raging Borderline and she's been victimized

I shall ask the social worker if she is going to do her own tests.

There are three versions of the test, I think. One of them is specifically designed to pick up defensive responding, also referred to as "falsely presenting."  I think that means lying  

Maybe all of them do that to some extent, with different versions being better than others at doing that.

I'm not sure what the PAI is -- the MMPI2 s used to indirectly assess parenting abilities, with psychopathology being one of the indicators it tests for.

Meaning, if you have a problem scoring within normal range on *reality testing,* then that's probably going to affect your ability to parent well. There is no score that says "bad parent" or "good parent" which is why it can be helpful to have an expert testify and interpret the scores and what they mean.

Moselle, I wonder if it makes sense in your situation to ask the social worker about whether the MMPI-2 will be used, or if the affidavit is sufficient? Meaning, you would say, "Hey, not sure if we're doing an objective psychiatric evaluation like the MMPI-2. I don't know much about it, only that it's commonly used to help assess parenting in custody evaluations. Or is the affidavit enough? I don't want to put ex through something unnecessarily because I suspect it might feel invasive. What are your thoughts on this?"

I don't know. I would find it hard to resist mentioning the affidavit... .

Court officials and associated professionals will never use the word lying or liar.  That just doesn't happen.  Well, maybe in murder trials, but not in cases where one of the court's mandates is to understate, smooth over or reduce conflict.  So they obfuscate.

Other Court Speak is "less credible" which we can take the liberty to describe as "liar".  I think that's also why we seldom get allegations closed as "unfounded".  More common is the neutral "unsubstantiated" where they stop short of stating whether the baseless claim was intentionally meant to posture as victim and harm the standing of the other.