I have taken my ex to high-court yesterday to get access to my children. (Part3)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

What precisely are the consequences of being 'convicted' of Contempt of Court?  Is it a felony, misdemeanor or neither?  I did a quickie internet search (yes, totally not a 100% reliable answer) and it said CC is generally not considered a criminal offense but sanctions could be criminal or civil.

In my area I think it's something like up to 30 days in jail or perhaps a $$$ fine  Also possible are court ordered make up parenting time, etc.  Come on, do you really believe a judge would send a mother to jail?  Almost surely not on a first offense or even a second offense.  It might be $$$ fine, suspended, court costs, legal costs or maybe just a lecture.  Mother's claim "Oh look what your father did to me and made me a felon/criminal!"  Are the children that gullible?  Then that's more alienation.  My point is you can't control what she claims to the kids anyway.

I'm jaded.  I admit it.  Trying to appease the beast just enables more snarling later.  I've been there, done that.  I think I had  one or two CC cases during the divorce process, both set aside pending the trial.  If I had gotten a ruling then I couldn't have used them in the trial since they would then be considered 'addressed'.  Then there was one after the final decree my lawyer was sure we'd win and the magistrate ruled she didn't "technically" CC because she had an "inability to comply".  No she didn't, she didn't even try to comply with either the old order or the new order.  Magistrate decided that way because the temp order had ended and the final order was just weeks old.  I finally decided, I will do what I gotta do and let the outcome fall where it may.  Sorry if I'm a bit short here, I just feel going soft on her will feed her belief she can continue to bluff and flummox you and push off consequences.  (For most of us it's not often we can manage to establish or prove Contempt of Court.)

[ForeverDad]

What precisely are the consequences of being 'convicted' of Contempt of Court?  Is it a felony, misdemeanor or neither?  I did a quickie internet search (yes, totally not a 100% reliable answer) and it said CC is generally not considered a criminal offense but sanctions could be criminal or civil.

In my area I think it's something like up to 30 days in jail or perhaps a $$$ fine  Also possible are court ordered make up parenting time, etc.  Come on, do you really believe a judge would send a mother to jail?  Almost surely not on a first offense or even a second offense.  It might be $$$ fine, suspended, court costs, legal costs or maybe just a lecture.  Mother's claim "Oh look what your father did to me and made me a felon/criminal!"  Are the children that gullible?  Then that's more alienation.  My point is you can't control what she claims to the kids anyway.

I'm jaded.  I admit it.  Trying to appease the beast just enables more snarling later.  I've been there, done that.  I think I had  one or two CC cases during the divorce process, both set aside pending the trial.  If I had gotten a ruling then I couldn't have used them in the trial since they would then be considered 'addressed'.  Then there was one after the final decree my lawyer was sure we'd win and the magistrate ruled she didn't "technically" CC because she had an "inability to comply".  No she didn't, she didn't even try to comply with either the old order or the new order.  Magistrate decided that way because the temp order had ended and the final order was just weeks old.  I finally decided, I will do what I gotta do and let the outcome fall where it may.  Sorry if I'm a bit short here, I just feel going soft on her will feed her belief she can continue to bluff and flummox you and push off consequences.  (For most of us it's not often we can manage to establish or prove Contempt of Court.)

[Moselle]

What precisely are the consequences of being 'convicted' of Contempt of Court?  Is it a felony, misdemeanor or neither?  I did a quickie internet search (yes, totally not a 100% reliable answer) and it said CC is generally not considered a criminal offense but sanctions could be criminal or civil.

In my area I think it's something like up to 30 days in jail or perhaps a $$$ fine  Also possible are court ordered make up parenting time, etc.  Come on, do you really believe a judge would send a mother to jail?  Almost surely not on a first offense or even a second offense.  It might be $$$ fine, suspended, court costs, legal costs or maybe just a lecture.  Mother's claim "Oh look what your father did to me and made me a felon/criminal!"  Are the children that gullible?  Then that's more alienation.  My point is you can't control what she claims to the kids anyway.

I'm jaded.  I admit it.  Trying to appease the beast just enables more snarling later.  I've been there, done that.  I think I had  one or two CC cases during the divorce process, both set aside pending the trial.  If I had gotten a ruling then I couldn't have used them in the trial since they would then be considered 'addressed'.  Then there was one after the final decree my lawyer was sure we'd win and the magistrate ruled she didn't "technically" CC because she had an "inability to comply".  No she didn't, she didn't even try to comply with either the old order or the new order.  Magistrate decided that way because the temp order had ended and the final order was just weeks old.  I finally decided, I will do what I gotta do and let the outcome fall where it may.  Sorry if I'm a bit short here, I just feel going soft on her will feed her belief she can continue to bluff and flummox you and push off consequences.  (For most of us it's not often we can manage to establish or prove Contempt of Court.)

I'm jaded too. But this is a new court case, new judges. I cant let my jadedness appear as a vindictive, paranoid, impatient spouse, wanting a conviction.

So we found out why there was no response to her lawyers. She was out of the country for the last week!. My D17 lied to me yesterday saying "Mom left this morning for a local photoshoot at 9 am, and will be be back later. When I dropped them off last night, I went in to find that the grandparents were staying there, pretending that ex and her husband were there all along. And they've done it for the whole week. I stayed calm told them that what they are doing is illegal, and left.

Spoke to the lawyers, they are becoming more bullish with the latest developments. They're going for contempt on tuesday, after this latest breach of first right of refusal. 

I've been to the airport this morning to lodge the children's names and that I do NOT allow them to leave the country, in case there is a plan to spirit the girls out to wherever their mother is. They said I need to get a court order to make it permanent, which I will do tomorrow.

Anxious times!

I would be very surprised if ex shows up to court tomorrow, after her lawyer withdraws today. If she is not there, I have arranged that the school with phone me to tell me if the children are in   school or not. If not, I will go to the airport

History: She's kidnapped them once already - April 2016, with the kids lying to me on that occasion as well.

I'm not appeasing the beast. I'm showing the court that I have the children's interests at heart, and being reasonable in the face of ridiculous unreasonableness.

I hope this strategy pays off. If not, I will change it.

[ForeverDad]

Sounds like you're on track!

As I've often written... .with education, improved skills and information then we can make more informed and more confident decisions.

[Moselle]

Sounds like you're on track!

As I've often written... .with education, improved skills and information then we can make more informed and more confident decisions.

Thanks ForeverDad and all the other contributors. The education has been from you all.

I'm feeling confident for tomorrow, and will radically accept the developments as they unfold. Making adjustments accordingly.

[formflier]

Wishing you the best.  Fingers crossed that your outcome helps move things in a better direction.

FF

[david]

Family court wants both parents to agree to something. If that isn't possible they want one parent making reasonable requests.
Something I learned, courts view verbal testimony on one tier and documented evidence on a higher tier. If evidence is produced in court, it must be put into evidence and there is a procedure. It slows things down but holds more weight than verbal testimony. Your affidavit would, I believe, be such evidence. The judge has little choice but to agree with you if you make a request based on the evidence presented. If he/she doesn't and something goes terribly wrong then guess who is to blame. Judges cover their butts whenever they can because of that. They don't like bad publicity.
Hope things go well.

[Moselle]

Wishing you the best.  Fingers crossed that your outcome helps move things in a better direction.
FF

Thanks for the good wishes

Family court wants both parents to agree to something. If that isn't possible they want one parent making reasonable requests.
Something I learned, courts view verbal testimony on one tier and documented evidence on a higher tier. If evidence is produced in court, it must be put into evidence and there is a procedure. It slows things down but holds more weight than verbal testimony. Your affidavit would, I believe, be such evidence. The judge has little choice but to agree with you if you make a request based on the evidence presented. If he/she doesn't and something goes terribly wrong then guess who is to blame. Judges cover their butts whenever they can because of that. They don't like bad publicity.
Hope things go well.

Yes I can see that.

Short update:

I ensured we were reasonable and civil today. They (ex and hubby) of course, weren't.

We asked for judgement, and they applied for a postponement on the basis of hiring a new lawyer. So the reason the lawyer withdrew was because ex and hubby wanted to oppose the application of contempt and she favored a deal. Given they have no case whatsoever (in their lawyer's view). She favored a reasonable deal, which we were amenable to. Instead they asked for leave to oppose. Which the judge granted.

However, he also granted me everything we asked for, including an investigation by a specialist social worker.  I will need to be on best form there. It's a risk, but one I am willing to take.

Not happy that we didn't get judgement, but now that they want to formally oppose, with drivel as a defense. It will make them look stupid to the court. Secondly, I can't imagine a lawyer willing to take up the fight from a no-win position. We shall see, I know there is more joy to come. She will likely hire a nasty lawyer this time who wants to play dirty. So be it.

They raised sexual abuse again, and tried to block my visitation, the judge said. I've been a judge for 40 years. I am not taking sides, however I warn you that you need to stop poisoning your children's minds against the other ex-spouse. Almost without exception this will back fire against you. The children will grow into adults and with adulthood, comes perspective. They will not want anything to do with you.

When I looked over to my ex, her husband glowered at me with the expression "Yes, see, what's going to happen to you?"

I guess you can't argue with stupid.

[ForeverDad]

Glowered.  Been there, done that.

The last time I was in court, some 4 years ago, for a two day trial where I already had custody but was seeking majority time previously denied me, ex's lawyer's aide glowered at me, even sniped me when the lawyers had walked out, "How can you do this to a mother?"  Yeah, with the only information source being my ex, no wonder she glowered.  Sadly, even all the testimony including ex screaming on phone calls about exchanges didn't impact her.  Some people are so emotionally gullible when influenced by Masters of Alternate History.

Oh, and to set history straight.  I got 22% time in two temp orders covering more than two years after we separated, this was when nothing negative was documented against me.  After this case in court my ex, looking very bad in the decision, was reduced to 25% time overall.  So who got fair treatment based on documentation?

[david]

Sounds like the judge got it. However, he has to follow the law and can't just tell either person they are stupid. If they do that they can get in trouble. They are supposed to be impartial but by what he said he was telling ex what his experience has shown him. Sadly, it probably went on deaf ears.
My story started in 2007 and eventually everyone figured ex out in the courts. I was an EOW dad and now have 50/50 legally but have more time than that since ex gives me more time. Lately she started fighting the extra time ? even though she is offering it to me ? I don't argue but I do save the emails. It used to be said on this site a lot, "negative engagement is still engagement." The more you deal with this the better the understanding of that statement becomes. I don't engage anymore and only communicate through email. I don't take any of the bait she lays out. I only discuss the specific issue about our boys. It only consists of scheduling for holidays and things like that. This last Christmas and this last Easter ex tried to make an issue of the schedule. It is spelled out in court but ex "fails" to understand.

[formflier]

So... .did the affidavit get put into evidence where she said she "didn't mean it" with regards to sex abuse or whatever they are claiming?

I'm assuming the judge granted everything you wanted "except" the judgment?

What is the date to proceed about the judgment?

FF

[Moselle]

So... .did the affidavit get put into evidence where she said she "didn't mean it" with regards to sex abuse or whatever they are claiming?

I'm assuming the judge granted everything you wanted "except" the judgment?

What is the date to proceed about the judgment?

FF

No, she did not recant her statement. But the judge indicated to her that "I see your game".

They children have already been interviewed by the family advocate specifically on sexual abuse. And they put no restrictions on me.

I need a second social worker professional to do the same (by someone well known at this court)  and they'll feel comfortable that they are covered in the event something goes wrong.

They can say two professionals came to the same conclusion. That's why I allowed unrestricted access.

They are covering themselves.

All of this strengthens the likelihood that I get a conviction. The sexual abuse charges, the ridiculous opposition. It's all nefarious and today was the clearest indication that the judge is noticing the pattern. One one side clean hands, cooperation and reasonable behaviour. On the other side lawyers mysteriosuly withdrawing, postponement, disorganization, fake sexual abuse allegations, gross unreasonableness.

A picture emerges.

[formflier]

No, she did not recant her statement. But the judge indicated to her that "I see your game".

Hey... .didn't she sign a piece of paper that says she made some stuff up... .or am I remembering that incorrectly?

I thought at some point that paper signed by her might be introduced as evidence.

FF

[david]

The court system is very slow. In a sense, that does help with making the correct decision. The downside is the kids have to deal with this until things settle down. It took me close to four years until the courts realized who the problem was. Cost a lot of money to get there.

[livednlearned]

A picture emerges.

Since we are being openly jaded here 

I found that court takes more seriously defiance toward court than defiance between exes.

Even though the judge scolded your ex, and even though common sense suggests the judge is aware of her shenanigans, something glacial and slow may still occur because legal technicalities and norms dictate.

It's like turning a large boat. It can feel like forever to get things turned around and pointed in the right direction

What is encouraging about your story is that you seem to be headed that way.
 

[Moselle]

Since we are being openly jaded here 

 

I'm feeling less jaded today. I have had two good days of communication with my children, and they seem happy and chatty.

I even sent a "thank you, and keep it up" note to the source of my jadedness. I'm trying to treat her like I would a two year old. Encourage the heck out of anything positive she does, and not react when she tantrums

I found that court takes more seriously defiance toward court than defiance between exes.

Even though the judge scolded your ex, and even though common sense suggests the judge is aware of her shenanigans, something glacial and slow may still occur because legal technicalities and norms dictate.

It's like turning a large boat. It can feel like forever to get things turned around and pointed in the right direction

What is encouraging about your story is that you seem to be headed that way.

Yes, thank you. Its huge when a judge over-rules an allegation of sexual abuse, and allows contact (he would not take that risk unless he was 100% sure). It says something to me about the ship that's turning.

The court system is very slow. In a sense, that does help with making the correct decision. The downside is the kids have to deal with this until things settle down. It took me close to four years until the courts realized who the problem was. Cost a lot of money to get there.

It sounds like the children are relieved. The court has mandated visitation, so they didn't have to tell mom they wanted it, and suffer her wrath. They were friendly and chatty yesterday and today, and I know for a fact that ex and her husband were totally dysregulated since the court outcome. His ex sent me the emails he sent her. He was blaming her (bizarrely) for the outcome of court, because she was the one who told me that they had skipped the country  . As I said before, you can't talk to stupid.

The sexual abuse thing was their last and ONLY hope - and it got crushed.

Hey... .didn't she sign a piece of paper that says she made some stuff up... .or am I remembering that incorrectly?

I thought at some point that paper signed by her might be introduced as evidence.

FF

Yes, it was submitted with the founding affidavit. I shall quote her:

"I misled the family advocate in that Moselle was not diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Dr X "

"In fact I was diagnosed with Borderline personality, Narcissitic traits, GAD, Impulse control disorder and eating disorder, by my Psychiatrist"

"As a result of these maladies, I was both physically and emotionally abusive to my husband the children"

You'll be amazed how little attention this gets. She confesses under oath to lying, being mentally ill and physically and emotionally abusive. It has not come up once, by any judge.

[formflier]

Has that affidavit been submitted as evidence?  Is it part of the official record?

I would think, that as part of a "solution" that an official diagnosis would have an officially mandated (court ordered) "participation" in treatment.

I realize that you can't label people as bad because they have a mental illness, but someone with a mental illness, that is displaying the standard behaviors and is refusing to participate in treatment... .that seems to be screaming for a solution.

How does your L see that?  What do the courts there generally do with that?

Really glad you had chatty time with kids.


FF

[livednlearned]

"As a result of these maladies, I was both physically and emotionally abusive to my husband the children"

You'll be amazed how little attention this gets. She confesses under oath to lying, being mentally ill and physically and emotionally abusive. It has not come up once, by any judge.

Wow.

I imagine that judges and others see such chronic human nuttery, day in and day out, that it must become somewhat numbing?



Spending so much time in court, waiting for my turn on the docket, made me realize that things could be so much more worse.

[Moselle]

Wow.

I imagine that judges and others see such chronic human nuttery, day in and day out, that it must become somewhat numbing?



Spending so much time in court, waiting for my turn on the docket, made me realize that things could be so much more worse.

I even printed it out again and gave it to.the advocate to use on Tuesday to counter the tomfoolery of sexual abuse nonsense. Re-frame it saying there's no evidence of any kind of abuse by Moselle, but there is a signed confession of lies, .mental illness and physical and.emotional abuse by ex wife of Moselle.

Maybe the court expects tit for tat accusations and she wanted to take.the high road and allow the ex to look accusatory.

We got the outcome so I can't complain, but sometimes i want to shake these people up who ignore the abuse for the sake of expediency.

Has that affidavit been submitted as evidence?  Is it part of the official record?

I would think, that as part of a "solution" that an official diagnosis would have an officially mandated (court ordered) "participation" in treatment.

I realize that you can't label people as bad because they have a mental illness, but someone with a mental illness, that is displaying the standard behaviors and is refusing to participate in treatment... .that seems to be screaming for a solution.

Yes. And I agree.

They don't seem to take any notice unless there is a specialist in court telling them these things and making a recommendation

Judges and lawyers are not psychologists and they seem to demonstrate no interest in understanding mental illness. It's a pity as I would  estimate a significant percentage perpetrators to have traits of mental illness.

[ForeverDad]

You'll be amazed how little attention {her affidavit admitting misleading/lying} gets. She confesses under oath to lying, being mentally ill and physically and emotionally abusive. It has not come up once, by any judge.

I recall when I was last in court, I had filed various documents with my initial motion or petition.  I think they were about child support, income or something similar.  Yet the decision stated I hadn't submitted or made that request.  I suspect that the magistrate didn't go back to the original petition, filed over a year before, and review what was filed with it.  The point may be that you have to re-submit that statement as testimony or evidence while at the court and it is "on the record".  Don't assume.  If the repetition is not needed, the judge will say so.

[livednlearned]

They don't seem to take any notice unless there is a specialist in court telling them these things and making a recommendation

Would you consider hiring an expert witness to testify?

I believe court makes rulings on a case by case set of evidence, provided by you and your ex, so if there is no expert to testify to what effect these diagnoses impact the kids, then the court will not draw conclusions.

I remember Matt, a long-time member here, often made this point. He was falsely accused of DV and spent time in jail. Eventually a custody evaluation was done, including a psychiatric evaluation using the MMPI-2. That produced a BPD diagnosis for his stbx wife, among other things, but he had to have an expert psychologist connect the dots for the judge, if I am remembering all of this correctly.

[Moselle]

Would you consider hiring an expert witness to testify?

I believe court makes rulings on a case by case set of evidence, provided by you and your ex, so if there is no expert to testify to what effect these diagnoses impact the kids, then the court will not draw conclusions.

I remember Matt, a long-time member here, often made this point. He was falsely accused of DV and spent time in jail. Eventually a custody evaluation was done, including a psychiatric evaluation using the MMPI-2. That produced a BPD diagnosis for his stbx wife, among other things, but he had to have an expert psychologist connect the dots for the judge, if I am remembering all of this correctly.

Thanks L&L, that is a hugely valid point. That would be very useful - her explain to the court, why the children might mislead investigators (aka lie) for my ex.

That's the first I have heard of MMPI-2. It look very interesting.

I was in touch with the specialist today. She is all set to start with initial investigations with ex tomorrow.

I am wondering what to say to her. Discuss the diagnoses, discuss the children, play recordings of ex raging, and children beggin me to do what she is screaming about (ie pleasing)?

[livednlearned]

I am wondering what to say to her. Discuss the diagnoses, discuss the children, play recordings of ex raging, and children beggin me to do what she is screaming about (ie pleasing)?

Above all, focus on having a loving relationship with your kids. That, and you welcome any suggestions from her about how to do that under the current circumstances. Talk about your belief that the kids need counseling, mention counseling if you are participating in any. Check with your L about all of this, too.

When I met with the parenting coordinator involved in my case (a child psychologist who had an extension of judicial duties, which is offered in some states in the US but not others ), I focused on then S11's well-being, and discussed ways in which I felt it was difficult to get his needs met in the current coparenting situation, and did the PC have suggestions based on what she knew about our case, or did she need additional information, and what type of information did she prefer? I followed her lead.

Your situation is a bit different because there are false allegations out there. And you have a written affidavit about ex's diagnoses.

I might let the affidavit speak for itself, and use your time to follow the evaluator's lead on what she wants to know more about.

My PC ended up saying very kind things about me when she testified, but when we first met, I could not make heads nor tails about what she thought. She was very professional and aloof -- no chinks in the armor. During our initial intake, we spent some time talking about my concerns about how S11 was doing, who he was seeing for therapy, how he seemed to be doing, some worrisome behaviors (e.g. nervous tics, stomachaches, etc.), as well as my hope that working with her might help S11's dad and I focus on different therapies and possibly medication recommended by a psychiatrist and psychologist who evaluated our son.

Then I left with her a binder of emails so she could get a sense of what our communication issues were.

I did less talking about n/BPDx, although I did use some phrases like "walking on eggshells," and "high conflict" and "fear of abandonment," and I said I was trying to figure out how to parent S11, and was open to suggestions.

Reading the jujitsu article again might help you here

[formflier]

That's the first I have heard of MMPI-2. It look very interesting.

Many times it is done in concert with another test call PAI.

https://www.parinc.com/products/pkey/287

The cool thing about these tests is somehow there is a score given to tell if the test is "valid" or if someone is gaming the test.

There are lots of questions.

FF

[Moselle]

Many times it is done in concert with another test call PAI.

https://www.parinc.com/products/pkey/287

The cool thing about these tests is somehow there is a score given to tell if the test is "valid" or if someone is gaming the test.

There are lots of questions.

FF

A deception score!

I think I did these tests or something similar when I first split up. I thought I was a sex pest, Narcissist, Borderline, the whole bang shoot. My ex, her mother, and her family's psych had convinced me that I was the one causing all the problems. I asked for my Narcissistic score (I actually thought it would be high). It was low and so was my deception score. My BPD score was medium . I'm thinking from the fleas of living with my ex and my mom. Either that or I'm the raging Borderline and she's been victimized

I shall ask the social worker if she is going to do her own tests.

[livednlearned]

The cool thing about these tests is somehow there is a score given to tell if the test is "valid" or if someone is gaming the test.

There are three versions of the test, I think. One of them is specifically designed to pick up defensive responding, also referred to as "falsely presenting."  I think that means lying  

Maybe all of them do that to some extent, with different versions being better than others at doing that.

I'm not sure what the PAI is -- the MMPI2 s used to indirectly assess parenting abilities, with psychopathology being one of the indicators it tests for.

Meaning, if you have a problem scoring within normal range on *reality testing,* then that's probably going to affect your ability to parent well. There is no score that says "bad parent" or "good parent" which is why it can be helpful to have an expert testify and interpret the scores and what they mean.

Moselle, I wonder if it makes sense in your situation to ask the social worker about whether the MMPI-2 will be used, or if the affidavit is sufficient? Meaning, you would say, "Hey, not sure if we're doing an objective psychiatric evaluation like the MMPI-2. I don't know much about it, only that it's commonly used to help assess parenting in custody evaluations. Or is the affidavit enough? I don't want to put ex through something unnecessarily because I suspect it might feel invasive. What are your thoughts on this?"

I don't know. I would find it hard to resist mentioning the affidavit... .

[ForeverDad]

There are three versions of the test, I think. One of them is specifically designed to pick up defensive responding, also referred to as "falsely presenting."  I think that means lying  

Court officials and associated professionals will never use the word lying or liar.  That just doesn't happen.  Well, maybe in murder trials, but not in cases where one of the court's mandates is to understate, smooth over or reduce conflict.  So they obfuscate.

Other Court Speak is "less credible" which we can take the liberty to describe as "liar".  I think that's also why we seldom get allegations closed as "unfounded".  More common is the neutral "unsubstantiated" where they stop short of stating whether the baseless claim was intentionally meant to posture as victim and harm the standing of the other.