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Anyone that has followed my posts knows about the affair that I had about 12 years ago.  According to my W, it is the core of our problems.  I agree that it was a major issue and made things much worse in many ways.  However, I do not believe that it is the core as there were major problems before that.  She proposed this weekend that we attend an intensive affair recovery program.  The program is almost $4K.  It is available to take as an online course for about $700.  I told her that I was more than willing to invest into anything that would truly help our relationship but that I do not believe that the affair is the root of our issues.  She sent me the following:
https://www.marriageministry.org/rebuild-trust-after-an-affair/

1. The spouse who was unfaithful must immediately break all ties with the affair partner, or, in the case of pornography or sexual addiction, put all necessary boundaries in place. The spouse who was unfaithful might protest that this step is unreasonable, especially if they see their ex-lover at work or if running into each other is practically unavoidable. But, the temptation to resume the affair can be too strong, no matter how well-intentioned a the reforming spouse may be. Besides, your spouse will never be comfortable knowing that your ex is still in, or even near the picture. So, the spouse who was unfaithful must do whatever it takes to distance from and avoid the affair person, even if that means changing jobs or moving to a new area.
2. Disclose lies and secrets that have occurred. These will block trust, progress and intimacy with your spouse. This may need to be done in the presence of a pastor or counselor.

3. Agree to the assistance of spiritual mentors and/or accountability partners.

4. Commit to Christian counseling including sorting through the issues leading up to the crisis and making necessary changes.

5. The partner who was unfaithful needs to take personal responsibility for the damage done to the spouse and family, without shifting blame.

6. The partner who was unfaithful needs to allow your spouse the time necessary to heal without applying guilt or added stress.

7. Create an environment of trustworthiness with your partner. Be transparent in all your activities. Share with your spouse important ways you will be faithful.

I have followed every single one of those steps for the last 12 years.  I have always taken 100% responsibility, not ever blaming her at all.  I have sought counsel both individual as well as couples counseling.  I have been open about my whereabouts and communication.  I have cut ties with anyone that she considers a threat regardless of how I feel.  I have waited 12 years for healing to take place but the wound is just as raw as if it happened yesterday.  
My question is, where do I draw the line or should I even draw a line?  I do not want to be insensitive to how she feels.  I understand that the hurt and betrayal is unlike any other.  At the same time, I do not know what more I can do to help bring healing and I am tired of constantly being beat up for the same thing over and over.  As I have mentioned in another thread, she is now talking divorce and basing that off her telling me before we got married that she would divorce me if I ever cheated on her.  12 years is a long time to wait to follow through on that.  She is claiming that I have not taken any accountability for that or anything else and that I don't believe that I deserve any 'consequences' but will not expound on what consequences she believes are appropriate.  I am just tired and do not know what the healthiest way forward is for both of us.  I would love there to be true healing and be able to move forward but it does not seem that is possible.

WC

Quick question. You are posting on conflicted which is for people who are not sure they want to put the effort into resolving the relationship. Is that where you are?

Skip-
Yes, I am conflicted due to that fact that I don't know if putting effort in will have any good results.  I have tried for almost 2 decades to make this work and I am worn out.  I can't so I don't want to, but I don't want to put effort into something that is never going to get better and I guess I am trying to determine if there is any real chance of things getting any better.

WC

I did go back to the pastor that she walked out on a few times but there was really not much he could do.  With the current pastor that we have talked to, she told him that I was not allowed to talk to him or anyone else without her present.  I honored that for a few months but then decided that I needed to talk to someone.  I told her that I was going to talk to him regardless of what she had stated.  She was pretty much indifferent.

Below is a snippet from a conversation that we had today... .

Me:
My understanding is that you believe that I am THE problem and everything is my fault and I am solely responsible for where we are at and I don’t take responsibility for anything.  
Am I wrong?   If not, I don’t know how to work with that.  If I am wrong, then I need to understand where you really are.  

Wife:
I would say I more or less agree with that.  My perspective is you have been a terrible spouse.

If that is the case, you may want to just agree with the divorce and get into your new life while you are healthy. The two of you are in the 4th stage of Gottman's communication breakdown. It is going to take a real commitment to work out of that. If you two don't have it, you don't have it. It might make sense to let go.

The process of letting could possibly help you sort this.

As for the infidelity, it's a big hit and a partner could harbor resentments if they were never resolved. There is no statute of limitations. Resolving is something you both have to commit to and you have to find the venue/coach together. Everything written on that page is true. There is another page that was written for her. You both have to buy into it, both sides.

I know this is a rock in a glass house, but I don't think you can slide into a better place from where you are.  All directions take commitment and carry risk.  More of the same just means that someone else will make  the decision on their time-frame.

Hi Woodchuck,

She's been saying she wants a divorce, but when it comes down to it do you really think she will want that?

My SO has been saying it for years. (That is part of what got us into the pickle we are in in the first place. Constant breakups/threats) He doesn't really want one though... .I'm discovering nearly 8 years in!

take care, pearl.

Pearl-
I highly doubt that she will go to the effort to move towards a divorce.  She has no incentive to do so.  She will threat and rage but at the end of the day, she has no incentive to leave.  She can do whatever she wants more or less on my dime.  If she leaves, she has to start being responsible for everything that I provide for her.  I don’t see any desire in her to find happiness.  She is more than content to be bitter and angry.  To be clear, I am not trying to say that I am a perfect spouse, just that under the current circumstances she has no incentive to leave. 

WC

Hi WC,

I don't want to push you towards divorce as others on the thread have. It seems to me you are gathering your thoughts here, are hoping to save things if at all humanly possible, it is just hard to see if they can get better.

In my case, we have a timeline to see if we go on together or not, if we will get over some of these past issues or not. Things got pretty extreme recently and I agreed to a divorce. Now he is all pulling out all the stops to woo me back and insisting he is sorry for ever breaking up with me. (Mind you hundreds of times.)

I am not trying to push this on you. I want to respect your marriage. But have you ever "called her bluff" so to speak. In my case I was genuine when I agreed, totally ready to end it, still am. I can't help but wonder if she would want to do something, meet you part way on working on things, if she really had to face the prospect of losing you?

Are there any parts of the relationship that you still enjoy may I ask?

wishing you peace, pearl.

Pearl-
I truly appreciate your input and don’t feel pushed or pressured at all. I am just trying to gather my thoughts and writing helps with that.  I have told her on more than one occasion that I am at peace with pursuing a divorce if that is what she wants.  I would take things a step further if I had the financial resourses to do so.  Here is the thing though... .this is the woman who was terrified of losing me when I was sent overseas for 6 months a few years after we were married.  She wanted a baby after that so she wouldn’t lose me if I ended up coming back home in a box.  From there on every subsequent trip overseas for 6-7 months, she would drop me off at the airport and tell me that she wouldn’t miss me (meaning that she did not like living with me and would rather be on her own) but 2-3 weeks of being gone she always changed her tune.  Do I think the same thing would happen now?  Probably but I don’t believe that there would be any genuine change, just enough of a facade to get back together. 
As far as parts of the relationship I enjoy.  The short answer is, no.  The only relationship that is there is a legal piece of paper.  She rejects anything that I do for her and does virtually nothing to try to meet my needs.   I have been at the point where I have been tempted to have another affair just so she could have the reason she needs to leave.  I recognize that this would not be a healthy way of going about it and won’t go that route but all other options seem to be off the table for now due to my financial situation combined with the commitment I have with my job.   I can’t just walk in and give two weeks notice.   I just feel stuck.  I believe that as much as I want things to be good between us, I would be relieved if she left. 

WC

Here is an example of where our relationship is now.  We went out to eat after church yesterday.  We were taken to a booth.  Both of our kids quickly took one side.  I could see their agenda.  They wanted their mom and dad to sit together.  I sat down on the other bench. My W stood there for a few seconds and then sat on the edge of the bench the kids were sitting on.  There was no room for her to sit properly as the benches were made to fit two people.  Our S14 asked, ‘seriously mom?’   She replied, ‘yes, seriously’ and just sat there.  After a minute passed, our S asked her to move so he could sit next to me just to rid the situation of the awkwardness.  It is as if I am dealing with a 5 year old, not an adult.   

WC

That’s because on many levels that’s exactly what you are dealing with... .a very scared one at that.

Woodchuck,

Taking a 35,000 ft perspective on this... .the above is just a couple fighting. Here is a how this would be likely translated in a psychology class case review:

HIM:  My understanding is that you have an invalid and unfair perspective.  Am I wrong?  It's a rhetorical question, I don’t know how to work with that.  If I am wrong, convince me that your feeling and perspective aren't invalid and unfair.

HER:  I don't agree with you. There is validity in what I say.  Talking to me like this is a big part of the problem. You feel like you are the victim. I am the victim.

I think it would help to take the Gottman article to heart. The two of you are in stage four and you are both extremely defensive and exasperated with the repetitive dialog between you. You are both vying to be the victim and making your partner the persecutor.

(https://cdn.drawception.com/images/panels/2017/5-10/McaYqStQcz-4.png)

You both think the threats of divorcing or accepting divorce are benign, and in a literal sense they probably are now, but the gun is load and in hand and the safety is off and your relationship is on the path to certain demise - it may be reversal with a serious effort (ICU), it may not - but each day that continues on this trajectory could be the day the other party pulls the trigger.  Think about a suicide. 99% of the threats are benign, yet we know that when they have continued for some period of time, each day has the potential to be the last.

You can't make anything better until you stop making it worse.

I asked you the question I did a few posts ago because the questions facing you in life is not about this weekend therapy jaunt, its about you standing at the fork in the road with one road leading to divorce and the other being a hilly, swerving, path to trying to save a family.

What is another way to look at her actions?

She has offered a venue to resolve things. Yes, it's kind of a crappy, blaming effort, but it isn't a process server with a divorce filing.

The page she copied you on is the standard infidelity recovery map - there are 100 versions of this - but they are all more or less the same. She is saying, clearly, this needs to be fixed, you are at fault, and you never paid for your crime.

Not a great offer, but a offer, non-the-less.

If I wanted to save the marriage, I would validate that she is trying to find something constructive, validate that you understand that this matter isn't resolved, and tell her you will look into it. You can call the facilitators and talk to them and see if they feel they can help with this. You want a constructive venue, not a gallows, but don't say that to her. $4K is cheap (I'm not recommending the seminar, just saying the money isn't the issue).

She has resentments and she has to get them out.  The infidelity might just be the container hiding them. Some of the resentments might have nothing to do with you. These are complicated stews.

It's all about her. She's flooded. She can't even see your pain.

So who heals you? In short, not her, not now. We can help. You can see a "safe therapist". She won't be able to reach out to you until she get 50% of the resentment off her chest. Once she starts to heal, she will start to see you as a human being and wounded soul.

I'm not attempting to predict what will happen, but this is the "human nature" path's before you. It's a deep hole to dig out.

Skip-
I truly do appreciate the insight.  I understand that it is difficult to understand what is really going on when not physically present and the way you interpret things does make a lot of sense.  I can see how things could/would appear that way.  I think that I see things a bit different that how they appear though.  It may be that I am somehow lying to myself and I need to look at things more to determine if that is true.  I do not believe that I want to be the victim.  I just want things to stop.  I don't really care about addressing all the ways that I have been hurt of the years.  I could drop the last 18 years today and move forward without a bit of resentment I believe.  I am more than willing to just let all the hurt from the past go without another word and focus on now and tomorrow but that seems impossible when your partner wants to solely focus on yesterday and every day before that.

It is true that she did offer a solution and that in and of itself is great.  She has offered many solutions in the past, all of which I have played into and supported them from going to various counselors and classes that she has recommended to detailing out exactly what I am sorry for etc and giving her time to heal.
If she had not offered many things in the past that have not done one lick of good or made anything better, where do I stop?  I guess I see it like going to a mechanic and telling them your car is not working right and he keeps replacing parts but the issue doesn't go away.  Any sane person would not continue to go to that mechanic.  I have validated and participated in everything that she has suggested up until now.  I want to see some sort of evidence that it is not going to be a complete waste of time and money as everything else has been for the last 14+ years.

I completely agree that $4k is cheap.  If I knew there was a solution that would work and it cost 3x that much, I would find a way to pay for it.  

She does have resentments and her resentments go much further than our relationship.  The amount of anger and resentment and hurt that she carries around all while claiming that she doesn't and that she has forgiven so and so for this or that is really disturbing and at times just downright ugly.

I have stood by patiently waiting and helping in any way that I can figure out for over a decade.  I have set my pain aside for the most part and tried to be empathetic to her pain and her hurt.  I have been open to going from one counselor or pastor to another and rehashing our entire past only to have her tell me now that I have refused to talk about anything.  It is unfathomable how she can even suggest that.  I am tired.  I am worn out and I need something though I am not sure exactly what.  

WC

Let's do that exploration. This is what you thread is really about.

Does you sentence mean I just want it [her] to stop [doing this to me]?


Let's talk about this from the point if how does one deal with the resentments of another and when is it past recovery.

Resentments are difficult. I dated one person who had resentments and there was no recovering them. I dated another person with resentments and we worked through it just fine.

It's a complicated topic.  Usually there is a core. You have to get to that.  Do you think it is something else other than the infidelity and how you reacted to it? Do you know what she thinks you should have done? Have you asked her recently?

A difficult bag of worms, but it might help.

I don't believe that is what I mean.  I just want the insanity to stop.  I want the merry go round to stop.  I am not of the mindset that it is just her hurting me.  It takes two to tangle and I fully recognize that.  I also realize that she most likely doesn't realize what she is doing but that doesn't erase that things are still happening. I think the statement that I made is exactly what I mean.  I just want the cycle to stop.  If that means that I can stop it then I will stop it but the more that I change my communication to be more validating and less JADE etc, things just seem to get worse in many ways.  She is more angry now than I have seen her in a long time, to the point where I feel like I have no idea what she is going to do next.



I don't know if I have talked about it here before but I had a lot of resentment towards my parents when I met my W.  Looking back, we both fed off of this.  After we had been married for a few years, I realized that the resentment that I was holding onto was unhealthy and not doing anyone any good, so I just let go of it.  When I did, I felt so much better.  I felt free.  When I shared this with her, she became angry.  Today she will tell you that she was angry because she felt that I believed she should let go of her resentment towards them as well.  I am sure in a way I did, just as anyone who discovered something good, refreshing and freeing would want others around them to experience the same thing.  I am not sure if that is the kind of example you were looking for.

WC

LOL... .that is a very accurate portrayal of what is going on.  I guess the general message I am getting is that I need to figure out what I want and to move towards that.  The 'sub message' would be to work on communication techniques.  I am dedicated to doing that regardless as I know it is a good thing to do and it has helped me stay grounded and more calm.  It does get frustrating to constantly here some snide remark about my response being 'pretty, empty words that my T told me to say' or something like that.

WC

Another more recent example of resentment on my end and directly tied to my W is how our retirement plans were 'trashed'.  We had planned for years for me to retire and then move full time into the business that I have been working on building and that she would supplement that and my retirement pay by working part/full time.  I invested heavily, not just financially but time as well in preparing to be able to run my business when I retire in a few months.  I put all my eggs in that basket trusting that she would be there to support.  As some know, she pulled that rug out from under me a couple of weeks ago.  Am I resentful?  For sure!  Am I angry.  Yes!  Am I hurt?  Of course.  Will I trust her if she backpedals?  Not a chance.  I now have to switch gears and start looking for a 'real' job.  Not horrible right?  On top of that, I have passed several training and career broadening opportunities over the last 4 years because of the plans that we had.  I didn't want to go to 3-4 week schools for something that I had no intention of using.  Now, looking back, I could have really benefited from taking advantage of all those but I chose to pass them up so I could focus on my business and allow others that would benefit from the classes to go to them.  Now I am left with virtually nothing.  Will I be able to find a job?  I am sure I will.  I am resentful but I am not letting that resentment control me.  I am calmly just taking care of what I need to take care of.  I will not allow myself to show her how devastated I am as she will only get pleasure from that.  I am acknowledging the resentment and working on letting it go.

WC

Validation is often misunderstood. It might be good to open a discussion on how this is not working.


As would anybody be... .

Is this button pushing on her part. Part of the continuing cycle of conflict?

She pushed buttons in the car painting, but then gave you money.  She said she is not going to support your plan, but she did get a job (do I have that right).

She won't sit next to you in a restaurant booth - but she dines with you - sitting only a few feet away.

Going back to Gottman, there is a nonstop battle going on here. She is trying to get you to feel pain - her logic is likely, I feel miserable, it's only fair that you do too - or she might just be blaming her dark feeling on the most viable target, like the man the shakes his daughter to death when she is crying.

Getting on a different trajectory

Pearlsw suggested earlier to give her what she wants. That might get her to a place that she can process.  I was suggested, you both might want to let go for the sake of peace (take it one step further) and discuss dismantling the marriage. If nothing else, this makes you partners with a similar objective. There is authenticity to just saying, Hey, let's try to get to a better place and explore all options. Take the gloves off. Let her be heard and don't react and defend (or validate - validation works best outside or confrontation).

I am not selling divorce. I'm suggesting radical change.

I would like to address the victim mentality that I am communicating and I guess may have subconsciously.  I don't see myself as a victim, at least I do not believe I do.  I view myself as a result of choices that I have made.  I have spent the last many years trying to make right the wrong(s) and build trust and love etc.  I have asked over and over what my W needs to be able to feel like she can trust me and what she needs to feel like her needs are met.  The response is always that I need to figure all that out on my own or more recently that I need to ask my T.  I have tried to communicate to her that neither my T or anyone else knows her head or heart and therefore cannot tell me what she needs.  An 'I don't know' would be a lot easier than 'you figure it out' simply because telling me to figure it out is asking me to do something.  The example I most recently used is it feels like she is asking me to go pick up ice-cream for her and every time I bring a different flavor, she tells me it is wrong and to try again.  When I ask for any pointers on picking the right one, she just tells me to figure it out.  I feel like I am out of flavors.  I know I am tired of bringing home the wrong ones.  Does that make me a victim?  I don't look at it that way.  I made a choice to continue.  I guess I feel like I have been given an open ended sentence for my failures.  This sentence will be for as long as she sees fit and will include anything she sees fit and I should be grateful that she is still here and has not left.  I see myself as someone that has made mistakes and has made the choice to stay and make things right and has been unable to make any progress whatsoever.  She has not made me stay.  She has not made me try.  It is all my choice.  Am I hurt by her words and actions.  Of course but I don't view it as being her victim.  I have viewed it as part of the punishment that I deserve or at least the punishment that she thinks I deserve and if I take the punishment, maybe things will get better.  I don't know if that makes any sense or clears up how I feel as far as being a victim.

WC

I am trying to give her what she wants.  The problem is she will not discuss anything that involves moving forward.  Yes, she will mention coparenting, divorce etc. but when asked to talk details, she shuts down.  It is all generalities and that is how things have been for a very long time.  It is hard to give someone what they want when they won't really tell you.  I feel like she tells me just enough for me to try to do it because she knows I will try and then she can respond by telling me how wrong I went about trying it.  This goes back to wanting to make me feel pain.  I don't want to fight her on anything.  IF she does want a divorce, I am more than willing to take the steps to make that happen but I guess the reason that I am not taking steps is because of fear about how she is going to respond.  For example, I really don't want to move.  I really don't want to try to sell our 'extra' vehicle that we would not be able to sell for what I owe on it.  I fear that if I take the major steps of either selling the house and/or disposing of our extra vehicle, the script is going to get flipped somehow and I am going to end up having made a decision that was unnecessarily very costly.

WC

“You can be as mad as a mad dog at the way things went, you can curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go.”

― Eric Roth, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button Screenplay

Not sure that anyone called you a victim. Stuff has happened, opportunities have been missed; she threw a ball, you fetched in the hope that you might get the reward of true forgiveness, that didn't happen. The thing is, she genuinely doesn't know what flavor ice cream she actually wants. She is sending you of on a wild goose chase to find the elixir to all her problems. The obvious reason she has in hand is that of the affair. It's huge, it involves a lot of hurt and it's burnt on her emotional memory like a scar. There is no rational way that you can solve this problem for her, it was never your problem to solve. She has to decide to forgive you and only she can choose to do that or not.

I think what Skip and FF are getting is that you can choose to keep driving at her brick wall to try and break it down, you can reverse, take it at a different angle and try again, you can whisper to the wall, you can shout at the wall, you can rub up against the wall but it's not going to come down... .in fact there's a good argument to say that every time you touch the wall you strengthen it. Only she can choose to pull down the wall... .she's doing the same thing, driving her narrative at your defensive walls and time and time again you strengthen your positions. she believes you have the solution to her emotional problems, you believe that somewhere, somehow there is something you can do to solve her emotional problems. You want to rescue her from the negative feelings of your affair, she is the victim, but every time you try and rescue her she see's you as the perpetrator because you FAIL at the impossible... .and then in your eyes you are the victim because she won't let you win, she won't allow herself to be rescued. Rather than offering yourself to rescue (unilaterally come up with what flavor ice cream /how to soothe the hurt of the affair), show her by not offering anything.

OKAY... .I called you a victim... .although a victim of failing to achieve the impossible thing you  you and your W thought you could.

I have personally given up discussing anything about the future or the past, for now I accept that this is not healthy for the long term... .however, discussions in the past were also not healthy since they never achieved anything. I have started to 'show' my wife the way forward. I 'show' her not participating in any conflict at all, yes, sometimes that is hurtful and there's an enormous sense of injustice being wrongly accused, but she no longer gets a reaction from me, I ignore her walls of silence her passive aggressive behavior, I don't touch the wall, hell I don't even look over the wall. I act in accordance with my values. If she wants to chuck rocks over the wall, she can do that, I move out the way. This is her wall to protect herself from the hurt I have caused her (intentionally or unintentionally), she is the only one who can pull the wall down as she's the one that constructed it. YOU CANNOT TOUCH HER WALL.

I'm using the word in the construct of a Karpmen triangle:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

When there is drama, the parties see a persecutor and a victim of the persecutor. It is not uncommon that the parties both see the other party as the persecutor (easy concept to understand) and, be default, they are the victim (harder concept to understand).

I don't want to stockpile psychology concepts on you or blame you or her. I do want to draw your attention (since you are here, she is not) that you two are deeply locked in battle. If you offered her $100,000, she would probably say "whats the catch". If she said, lets go on a second honeymoon, you would probably say "what's she up too."

The discussion you quoted in a prior post reeks of persecutor/victim on your part. The sitting situation in the restaurant reeks of persecutor/victim on her part.

Gottman, stage 4, bad, must change trajectory.    

There is an underlying problem here for sure, but you will never get to it because you are locked in battle where everything is about protecting yourself from each other.

Does that make sense?

PS: Formflier and I aren't in disagreement, he is sharing game tactics. I'm talking about game (Karpmen term for human interactions) strategy. I think you have to understand the nature of the game before the tactics can be applied well.

Enabler-
I think you made some very good points and one of them was regarding forgiveness.  She has stated that she has forgiven me and not only has she forgiven me but she has forgiven me over and over and over.   Basically she is saying that she has to forgive me all over every day.  I don't know how to validate that.  I have had to forgive deep hurts before (I cannot compare it to an affair but they were deep) and the ways that she acts do not show any resemblance of forgiveness.  I cannot tell her that as that would be invalidating at best.  But the idea that she has in her head that she has forgiven does not work with moving forward while she still has all this anger.  On top of that, she believes that I demand forgiveness.  I can and have acknowledged that is how she feels but in reality, if she doesn't want to forgive, that is her choice.  I am perfectly ok with her not forgiving me and moving on.  What I am not ok with is there not being any forward progress at all in over a decade and nothing that even resembles forgiveness but her choosing to stay and be angry and resentful.  It is as if she is doing it to cause me as much pain as possible (I think someone eluded to that earlier).  

As far as being a victim, I think Skip mentioned that both my W and I are fighting to be the victim and make the other person the persecutor and I can see how that could easily be assumed with everything that I have shared.  I find that it is difficult to paint a clear picture of what I am thinking at times and just wanted to clarify.

I really do appreciate everyone's input/insight and time they take to weigh in on things.  It definitely helps me think things through.

WC

I agree with this. She has a bad feeling. She doesn't have a solution. She wants the bad feeling to be resolved.

This is like the man who wants his apartment to be decorated in a cool way, but doesn't have any idea what that means in terms of picking furniture.

Not defending her... .trying to explain why the transactional dynamics are so bad.

Going to my decorating analogy, imagine if the interior design just ran around and kept bringing in random pieces of furniture as asking "is this it". Imagine how you would respond the 7th time she returned with some random piece of furniture.

 


You must change trajectory, same idea.

Just a question for thought, Woodchuck.
Do you care?
My observation is that couples that fight, still care for each other.  Either that or they are just stuck in a cycle of verbal violence and struggle for control (even the inverse sort of control as seen in the Drama Triangle, where one, or both people try to be the victim).
I'm curious to know if you feel you care for your wife enough to try to repair damage, fix up damage, work on issues.  Or, are you just trying to feel out how much is "enough" from your support group here.  My thoughts based on your title for this thread lead me to believe that you were looking for some support saying that the many years of you struggling to repent, so that your wife forgives you was long enough.  As you know those are two actions, and only one you can control.  You will know when you have done what's required to fix the damage and recover from having an affair.  You are justified in not talking about it further.   Your wife will decide when she's reached her point of having dealt with it.  As I pointed out in my earlier post, at some point, you can either react to her dredging up guilt, or not.
Once you answer whether you care or not, then you can look at the bigger picture strategy as advised by several others.

I really think that all this discussion has helped me process things and gain a bit of a clearer picture.  The first step is to disengage, right?  We have been using several analogies from icecream and queens to decorating apartments and it really all makes sense with those analogies.  Stepping back and trying to make all that fit is a bit more mentally challenging for me.  If it is icecream or furniture, it is relatively easy to disengage.  When it is someone telling you not only that they are hurting and in pain but that the hurt and pain is because of you and you know that has a lot of truth to it, disengaging is a whole different animal.  I am imagining hurting someone and them telling you that you hurt them but they can’t tell you where but it is your fault.  How do you disengage from that?   I think the normal response is to help them stop the pain or maybe even stand in their pain with them and help them through it.  I know I am probably getting into the details too much again, I am just to reconcile everything in my head. 

WC

The first step is to emotionally disengage from the drama... .yes... .and re-engage in an emotionally intelligent and different way. There is a lot of scar tissue so being perfect will only move the dial a little bit at at time - she will take time to by into it (if she does) - try not  to get frustrated.  It's a little like the say in the NFL, the offense can only take what the defense allows - you have to look and probe new points of entry.

So what's the new trajectory?  I'd ask members to help with that.

I suspect step two ask questions Open ended, not detailed) about what she feels and listen very carefully and with no agenda. Feeling answers are OK, allow them, explore them.  We can talk about that here.

Couple of points

1) there’s needs to be a distinction between feeling or identifying one’s self as a victim, having victim behaviour and being a victim. You don’t identify yourself as a victim, that’s understandable since you have you s :cursing: together, as do I... .however, protesting your innocence at the injustice of not being forgiven is the behaviour of a victim. Some would argue you’d be justified in your protest... .but ‘some’ does matter, the only person that matters is your W. Either way she feels as though you are trying to be the victim by not being released from the umbridge of true forgiveness.

2) I think I wrote in an earlier post on this thread about emotional memory. There’s every chance that if she has BPD traits she is forgiving you on a daily basis. It’s beyond your comprehension how or why she NEEDS to forgive you and relives your infidelity every day... .but she most likely does. Have you ever heard of something called (and I might get this wrong) eye movement desensitisation & reprocessing therapy? A friend does it in the UK for the NHS so it must be a thing... .anyway, she was explaining that some people have emotional or physical trauma, let’s use the case of rape, these events are so horrific, so emotional, so out of the realms of normal and so unexplainable they cannot be rationalised and cannot be processed in a normal way. They NEVER get packaged up and filed away in the brains filing system, they just get stuck. The patient relives the full experience ALL THE TIME, their lives are destroyed by these unfiled experiences. EMDR attempts to take these experiences, package them up with eye movements such that they can be filed and compartmentalised like any common all garden experience like going to the shops. I suspect this highly emotional trauma of the affair is stuck... .she is reliving it day by day by day in exactly the same way as the original day she found out.


You cannot reprocess this for her, you just can’t

I would like to clarify that I don’t feel that there has been any injustice by lack of forgiveness.  I don’t deserve it and I cannot truly earn it.  It is a decision that she has to make.  If she doesn’t want to forgive, that is understandable.  What doesn’t make sense to me is claiming that she has forgiven but acting the exact opposite.  It is like telling someone that you love them and refsing to give them a hug or something like that. 

I have heard of the rapid eye movement therapy.  I have never really looked into it.  If I mention anything to her about her doing anything then I am trying to ‘fix’ her and I am the one that is the problem. 

So the title wasn’t meant to be a loaded or leading question. I truly don’t know the answer.  I am tired of the constant talking and no forward progress but at the same time I want to be sensitive to her needs and hurt as I know it is real.  With that though, I believe there is a line that eventually has to be drawn where enough is enough.  I would be very open to talking about it for the rest of my life if there was consistent forward progress but we are stuck in a rut just spinning our wherls, making a huge mess and making the rut deeper.  I want out of that rut.  I don’t believe it is healthy for anyone.  If she cannot proceed or forgive etc, then I think that needs to be identified.  I can themn make a decision based on that.  It seems like I am being led along with her claiming this will work or that will work and then nothing.  Hopefully that makes sense.  To answer your initial question, I do care, very much.  If I didn’t, I would have left a long time ago. 

WC

WC... .I think you misunderstand my point re EMDR, it’s jot that I am suggesting this is the solution, the point was about how ‘things’, ‘events’, ‘trauma’ gets stuck. For her it’s as though every day she wakes up and says “I’ve totally forgiven WC for being unfaithful, I just can’t continue feeling this”, goes downstairs and makes a coffee still having forgiven you... .then BOOM, we heard the sound of a text message ring tone, the same text message ring tone she heard whilst you were having an affair, she suspected it and knew it was from HER. ALL the emotions, all the physical sensations such as the swelling brain, the sweats, the tingling in the legs, the feeling of nausea... .tha abject panic comes back... .all because of a random totally unassociated stimuli... .a trigger... .takes her right back there. This has been going on for so so so long now that it’s no longer concious, all she knows is it happens and it’s not something she can control. Tie this with BPD traits which I’m assuming pre-dates the affair she can’t own these feelings nor has the tools to process and file them... .so from her perspective since she still relives the experience, you cannot have atoned for your sins. So now she’s straight back to needing to forgive you... .EVERYDAY

As stated this is a constant emotional stimulus to her. I like using the pint glass analogy, the glass is ones capacity to tolerate negative emotions before we dysregulate (enter the red zone, move to fight of flight INSTINCTS, become narcissistic, rage, destroy everything in our path). Start adding water, each drop is negative emotional stimulus, job, kids, weather, bills, FOO, traffic. When you get to the top that’s your capacity, you overflow and bad stuff happens. Now this daily reliving of your affair (and probably other things) keeps her pint glass half full making any negative stimuli likely to tip her over the edge into BPD wonderland.

My point remains, you can’t solve this for her.

Am I being dramatic, maybe, but I’ve started to believe that most if not 99.99999999% of people are trying to do the right thing. They are trying to do what makes sense to them. It may not make sense to us, but to them it makes sense and what she is saying makes sense to her. Even Hitler thought he was doing good... .make sense of that!

I really feel for you and can relate in some ways. This is a tough place to be. I think everyone has given great advice too.

The "eye" thing referred to here is EMDR. I've been doing EMDR with my therapist for a few years now (I have PTSD from abuse) and I believe it saved my life. It's a fantastic tool but it may not be right for everyone. I have no idea if your wife has experienced trauma to the point where EMDR would  help. My ex thought he did but several therapists told him it wouldn't help him.

The emotional memory resonates with me. I hope I get this right (sometimes I feel like Tim from Home Improvement when Wilson gives great advice and Tim doesn't always get it right when he tries to explain it to someone else... ). Someone please correct me if I'm wrong! In doing EMDR therapy, I learned that a traumatic event can cause emotions to get stored and stuck in a queue because we didn't have a safe place to process it and let it go. So when something triggers a traumatic event that may have happened years ago, we can relieve that event (and/or the associated emotions) as if it just happened. So when a particular emotion is felt, it can possibly bring up every event in the past where we felt that same emotion, flashbacks.

With BPD, it seems very similar to me. My ex is uBPD\NPD and seems to behave the way your wife does. He still brings up stuff that happened many years ago that I had thought we had dealt with over and over again.  We were together for close to twenty years.  It's like he can't move on or let go of a lot of perceived injustices. So it seems to me that something triggers him and he probably feels a particular emotion which brings up every single event from the past (or very specific ones) where he felt the same way. Because I triggered it, it's my fault (in his mind). He doesn't have a healthy way of dealing or coping with it and uses me as his verbal / emotional punching bag in hopes to make him feel better. Being on the receiving end really sucks! It seems like he's stuck and doesn't know how to move on and thinks bashing me will magically make it all better. It doesn't, though, and it repeats. I have to remove myself from the equation to break the cycle. I do that by refusing to participate in a discussion we've had over and over and over again through the years where nothing changed. I tell him we've already discussed that before (many times), nothing changed, and I do not want to discuss it again. And I don't.

Personally, I wouldn't mention anything about "fixing" her or that she will probably perceive as fixing her. My ex was like that too and it never went well. I was always the problem (and still is) in his mind. He kept trying to "fix" me and it drove me nuts! It's up to me to decide if I want to be "fixed" and it's up to me on how to do that, not him. If I want/need help, I'll ask. As others have mentioned, it's up to her to decide if she has issues she needs to work on or not. All you can do is you.

Having said that, I had to learn to disengage when my ex dysregulated and so on. It wasn't easy. For me, I had to imagine an invisible shield around me that nothing could get in. It helped me to not react emotionally in the moment. It helped me to keep a clear head so that I could deal with the situation appropriately. It seemed to me that he was usually looking for a fight. It probably makes him feel better in some ways. I refused to give him a fight as much as I could. I think sometimes he "needs" chaos/conflict to feel something, like adrenaline or something like that. When I didn't react emotionally the way he expected or wanted me to, he then claimed I was a cold heartless <fill in the blank>, etc. It also felt like he needed me to be "unstable" so he could be the "stable" one and/or he could blame me for his emotional distress when most of the time it wasn't because of me. He tends to have black and white thinking, as well as magical thinking. I later figured out that I had unintentionally triggered deep fears of abandonment in him from his childhood that he had never dealt with. He still hasn't dealt with it, by the way. Knowing this really helped me to realize that most of what he's experiencing emotionally in the moment probably has deep ties to his childhood and I have absolutely nothing to do with that. I also can't do anything about that except maybe try to validate he's feeling a particular emotion (or combination of emotions) in that moment. That doesn't mean it's my fault. That doesn't mean he's right and I'm wrong.

Sometimes I can't wrap my head around why he does or says the things he does. His words and actions don't match. I've learned to chalk it up to he's probably reacting emotionally in that moment and it may not have anything to do with me. He blames me for a LOT of things. Most of it has nothing to do with me and is projection. That's where therapy helped me know who I am and that while I am responsible for my actions, I can only do so much. The past is the past. I can't change it.

So my advice is to think about changing the way you react to her. Something needs to change and it doesn't sound like she is going to change anytime soon OR a catalyst of some sort is needed to invoke change. I find it similar to parenting a toddler in some ways. They are feeling something, don't know the right words, don't know how to deal with it in a healthy way, and sometimes expect you to fix it. With my ex, in all seriousness, I think he's very emotionally immature and never "grew up" emotionally. It makes it very difficult to understand and deal with at times.

I hope this helps. Sometimes I feel like I'm rambling.  

Another helpful resource, the 20 rules of BPD:

www.anythingtostopthepain.com/20-rules-for-understanding-BPD/

Rule 1: "All time is in the present. If something makes me feel bad now, it is linked directly to the greatest pain I ever experienced — and that pain is happening now, too. Time can’t heal any wounds because time never really passes. Everything – past, present, and future — is NOW."

That has got to be a horrible place to be, I mean that in the most empathetic way possible.  I cannot imagine having to live 'trapped' like that.

I_Am_On_Fire
Your last line made me laugh a bit.   I don't think you were rambling, but if you were, I tend to ramble just as much.  I don't know how many times I have sat down and purposed to write a short post and then it ends up being the exact opposite.  I agree that everyone has given great advice and if nothing else, it is really helpful to have others involved and giving input.  I am humbled when I see the amount of time people put in to trying to help.

I am slowly working on disengaging and using short answers with my W.  It is a process as I enjoy talking/debating etc and I can get quite 'wordy'.  If you look up JADE in the dictionary, my picture is next to it.  It has helped to realize what I am doing though and working on pulling back and just letting things be what they are.  I really like your idea of an invisible shield.  It makes a lot of sense to look at it that way.  I think that you are spot on with their need for us to be unstable and my W has been very successful in making that happen (it has really been my choice) over the course of our relationship.  As I am grounding myself more and not getting sucked in to the negative 'dances', I feel much more calm.  It does take a lot of work and discipline to not respond to all the nasty things that are said.  I was having a discussion with her last night and she had plenty to say including telling me that I am a proud and sick individual.  This was in direct response to me telling her that I understood how hurtful and frustrating it would be to be hurt deeply and then be blamed for it.  Her mindset is that I 'broke' her and I am now blaming her for being broken.  In reality, nothing could be farther from the truth but I know now that it does absolutely no good to try and explain that to her.  I just need to let the arrows fly and put up that shield that you were talking about.  Our conversation last night was revolving around the $4K affair recovery program that she found.  I had told her that I was willing to go but did not have the financial ability to pay for it.  She has 60-80k in the bank, so the money is not really an issue for her.  I would have to put it on credit and she hates credit, so in a sense it is a bit of a trap.  Anyway. she told me 'A really humble person who wanted to make right what they made wrong would find money to pay for the class to try to fix what they did.  But no, you are unwilling to face your wrongdoing because clearly it has already been addressed and it should be in the past without doing the WORK to put it there.  A really sorry person goes out of their way to make right what they did wrong.  They don't just claim the grace of God and demand forgiveness.' 
It seems that pretty much everything tends to be a trigger for her, meaning that if I voice a problem with anything, completely unrelated to the affair or anything else in the past, the past gets drug back up.  It is very tiring as I am sure you know.
The other aspect that makes this very difficult is according to her, the rest of her life has been perfect.  I am THE problem in her life.  She had a perfect life before she met me and she has a perfect life when I am not around.  She had a very good childhood etc.  It really sucks to be identified as THE one and only problem in someone's life.  Even when I look at it and can identify it as a pink elephant, it is still tough.  I believe there is some kind of trauma in her childhood that she has never addressed and is terrified to process.  I wish that she could do that, mostly for her sake so she could let it go.  As I mentioned before, when I processed my childhood issues and let them go, I felt so much better!  It was like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders.  I hope that some day she can experience the same thing.  I will continue to work on me and how I react to her and hopefully it will have a good impact and make things better in the future.

WC

This is what you are hearing... .


It makes you defensive.

This is what she is communicating... ."I am hurting."

And you being defensive makes it worse because she thinks you are not listening.

This is the cycle.

Disengage the old style and re-engaging a new, more feeling, style.

My "neurotypical" partner (I heard someone use that recently - not sure its a word)... .does this, too. She has a problem recently and unrelated to me, but it is coming at me. This is human nature. My reaction is to share her pain, support her, and give her the space she needs to solve it (rather than rescue). When she asks (and she will), I will help.

And if you read, the number 1 complaint from men after an affair is that the wife won't "get over it". The mindset of the wife is "this will be with me forever". This is also human nature. I've counseled a few people through infidelity recovery. I have one women who calls me a couple times a year to talk her out of a tree over an affair that was over years ago. When that affair trauma gets triggered, she re-lives the injury. PTSD, right?

You got advice to alter you communication style, which is helpful, but only if you alter your heart.

Put this model in your minds-eye. If every time she got triggered by the affair, you sat and cried with her, she would feel some relief and get up the next day and go on.

I'm not suggesting this as a tactic, but this is the type of empathy she is looking for.  What she is getting is facial expression, posture, and words that say "really, again, you want to talk about this, ugh".  So it builds and builds and now everything that troubles her tracks back to this. You mentioned EMDR earlier - I think you already sense this is what is happening.

I don't have a clever answer for how to peal back the onion and get the the trauma and engage empathically, but that is the grand theme here. Empathy, compassion, knowing when to aid and when to set back so she can self sooth, ending the invalidation, provide structure, and strength. The answer is in this stew pot. .

Defensive, unconnected/clueless, self-evisceration, frustration, condescension, word tag - these things are all bad for you and for her. Weakness is no good.

Make sense?

One thing I believe for sure is that all the time you react defensively to her being triggered (I too am the JADE master and loved a scrap) and JADE... .there is little or no reason she will feel compelled to look internally for another reason 'this' won't go away and she 'doesn't get over it'. The arguments provide a perfect detraction/validation for why she is right in thinking you are the problem and ALWAYS have been. This maybe one of many onion layers she has to work through to get to the core wound.

Incidentally I have a village friend who is in therapy for 'depression & anxiety' issues. Each time I see her she refers to a different historical reason why she's been suffering for so long... .each time "this is the one", each time I know it's not the one.

Woodchuck... glad I made you laugh a bit.  

That makes a lot of sense and I agree that it must be horrible to live like that. It's hard for me to imagine.

What Skip and Enabler wrote makes a lot of sense to me and I agree.

As a note, JADE really doesn't help and it is hard to avoid. With my ex, there were a few times when I did JADE (not knowing I was JADE'ing) to the point he had no other reasons for "x" and he completely lost his side of the discussion/argument. What happened? He totally shut down. He looked completely defeated and told me I was "destroying his life" even though the discussion was about how much daycare cost per month. At the time, it was very odd and disturbing to me. I felt very confused. Now I realize he probably FELT as if I were destroying his life. I believe in his mind, for him to be wrong brings up huge feelings of inner toxic shame which he will do ANYTHING to avoid. When he isn't able to avoid it, I think he either explodes at me or self implodes. I wonder if this is what your wife is going through. Knowing this has helped me actively work to avoid JADE. It doesn't do any good especially when the issue is really about the pain they are feeling and not necessarily the topic being discussed. It took me awhile to wrap my head around this.

I don't know if she had a good childhood or not. Is it possible she may be "rewriting" her past to possibly convince herself that it was perfect to give her more ammunition against you? I could be way off my rocker here. It feels familiar to me with what my ex does. He's completely convinced himself that certain events never happened even when I have physical proof they did. I think in his case the pain of the past is too great for him to deal with so he "rewrites" his past (mine too) to make himself feel better. It's like he "needs" to be the victim. It feels to me that she wants you to suffer as much as she is suffering or more. When she doesn't get the reaction she's expecting, she escalates and so on. For me, once I wrapped my head around the amount of pain he's probably experiencing, that helped me to feel less hateful and resentful and at times I was able to empathize with him at least somewhat. It also seemed to de-escalate the situation. It was extremely difficult for me to do this during the divorce for various reasons. Post divorce, knowing what I know now seems to help a lot, though.

I think you have a lot of good advice here and I really do hope it helps you and your wife.

As I follow along here, I have remembered that to a BPD person, the feelings are facts - so no matter how long ago the hurt, and how many times they "forgave" (and even forgot for the time being) once the feelings of hurt and betrayal (such as finding out about an affair) come back - it's as jagged and fresh as ever.  There's no reasoning with that force. So not only does time passing not matter, the reality of paying a debt, repenting, or amends, don't matter either. It's the feelings being her facts that matter.

Infidelity. Suicide.

These are two things that scar our soul.

I don't think we can advance far if we don't grasp the depth of expanse of the wounds associated with infidelity.

For one partner, the trust is broken. It can be repaired, but it is like a broken mirror, the crack is always present.

For the other partner there is a deep shame. It can be managed, but at the end of the day, sitting in a field alone with the stars, one knows things are not right in their universe.

Is this amplified if one partner has inherent trust issues (BPD trait) and one partner has some self worth issues (typical BPD partner)... .

... .yes.

This is far more complicated than "there is no reasoning with BPD". Talk to anyone in a relationship who have continued after infidelity.

Skip, I'm going to go off track here for a moment (apologies OP).  I have been stuck wondering if I can't recover from 20 years of mostly covert BPD behavior from my wife, with some monumental rages thrown in (and blame, projection, and a bitter story now of parental alienation). 
In short, after this long term low-grade abuse, I wonder if I can ever re-establish trust, or intimacy, or love.  At my point now, I don't think I can, and was wondering if I'm wrong, or broken. 
I don't have to forgive another's adultery, but, I still want to forgive my wife, if that's needed.  In spite of focusing on letting go, and wanting to forgive, I feel like I just can't re-establish anything good or hopeful.  There's that ever present crack.

You point deserves it own thread - it's a good topic.

Both things can be true. My point that suicide and infidelity create lifelong scars in all families where they occur. What you say is also true as a general point about BPD. If you look on Detaching, the #1 reason given  by a pwBPD for walking from a relationship is broken trust. In either case (or overlapping cases) there is a point of non-recovery.

I think I have a good grasp on that.  I was cheated on twice in two previous relationships before getting married.  I was not married to the women, so it was a little different but I still no to a great extent what it feels like and what you have to deal with.  The last time it happened, I was in a LDR and my girlfriend called me while she was with another guy... .It crushed me to the point where I wanted to commit suicide but I sought help from a buddy.  He took care of me and helped me get the assistance I needed.  I guess my point is I know how devastating it is.  With that being said, there has to be some forward progress at some point and if not then the 'game' needs to be called.  It has been 12 years.  12 years of me saying I am sorry.  12 years of me doing everything I can to take responsibility and seeking help, reading books etc and not one inch of forward progress.  Now she is telling me the only thing that will help is going to a $4k affair recovery seminar and that if I really cared about her and making things right and paying for what I have done, I would find a way to get the money to pay for that.  The response that I have in my head to this is probably not appropriate to post here.  Was/is the affair a big deal?  Yes, of course it was and I will not minimize it but at the same time, I feel that it is being used as a scapegoat for other things and that is not right or fair.

Here are just a few of her most recent quotes:

"You are at fault for being a terrible spouse that created marriage problems.  Your unrepentant prideful and self righteousness which perpetuate the problem are your responsibility along with your  being unwilling to accept responsibility for the mess you created."

"I believe that you think all you have yo do is say you are sorry and that is not true.  I am
Sorry fixes little to nothing!  You are responsible for much of the devistation and damage our relationship has sustained.  Im sorry with the attitude of demanded forgivness is sickening!"

"Your idea of fixing things was an apology and making steps to not repeat an affair or emotional affair of which there is no way for you to prove you have not done again."

"God does not forget anything... .he chooses to put it in the past.  We are human and it is not something we can do when we do not take the proper steps to be able to put it in the past!"

Me:
We have spent nearly 12 years talking about it between the two of us and I have no idea how many counselors and pastors.  I am sorry you feel like I have ever demanded forgiveness.  I have never felt like I even deserve forgiveness so I don’t know where you get that from.  I also did that for years with absolutely no positive effects at all.

Wife:
Yup and every God damn one of them thinks forgiveness will fix everything.  Guess what I know it fixes little to nothing!  I clearly need to repent for what you did or for not being able to forget.  Because to forgive you surely must be like God and “forget”


WC

Yeah. She’s not letting this go.  Nothing you can do will matter. After the $4k weekend, it will some other moving target.
What are going to do for you?
That’s all you can choose.

 
What happens in your body, the physical sensations, when you discuss the affair with her?

Emotions are physical sensations. A lot of us forget that and stop noticing. You can drop back into your body and discover a lot of information there that can tell you what's really happening.

Tight chest, shallow breathing, clenched jaw, sweaty palms, furrowed brow, lump in your throat. Anything like that happening when you talk to her?  

People tend to regulate their emotions based on what's happening around them. People with BPD do this even more, to the point they may regulate their emotions externally through loved ones because they haven't learned how to do this internally.

If you are not feeling anything, or are feeling shut off and guarded, or are not processing guilt (whether justified or not) she will likely mirror that back to you unconsciously.

Also, it's curious that she expresses perpetual angst over this, and yet repeatedly and voluntarily exposes herself to situations that would re-trigger intense emotion. That suggests she is not feeling more vulnerable feelings like sadness, only the shifted ones like anger and contempt, which can be stabilizing for someone susceptible to drowning in emotion, especially grief, a much more devastating feeling to experience.

Which makes sense in a way. She came into the relationship with a broken leg, then you crashed the car into a pole. 12 years later, it's your fault she needs crutches. She may have no way to explain how she feels, how she got the broken leg, who broke it, and who is responsible for fixing it. The affair probably scarred her soul, and gave her a clear (though flawed) explanation for how she became hobbled. The affair then provides a strange kind of stability when you think about the alternatives for someone who struggles to regulate emotion and take responsibility for those feelings.  

What do you think might happen if you started to express your emotions in a more basic way?

Her: "You need to stop having that affair 12 years ago and change history so I can get off these crutches."

You: "I'm having a hard time breathing deeply right now. My palms are sweaty and I feel this sense of dread in my stomach. My throat is constricted and I have a ringing in my ears. I need to go walk for 20 minutes and see if this clears up. I'll come back and we can talk about this when I'm feeling better."

Then go walk. And come back.

Try again.

Reveal how you feel physically because that's a legitimate problem she can help fix. She can either stop talking about it, or she can find another way to discuss it. If she can't do either of those things, you still have a plan to take care of yourself that doesn't rely on what she does.

It will not go that smoothly in real life, of course.  :(

It's best if you start focusing on how you feel and get better at it, then build up to sharing it so you have some emotional confidence in your back pocket first.

She may be startled the first time you do it. Over time, she may bait you or taunt you because the change will be unsettling and she'll want things to back to how it used to be.

It works best when you feel the ground under your feet first as you start to make small changes in a relationship that has some pretty rigid rules and roles in place. You taking care of yourself in a loving way, especially while being kind toward her, is change that may feel scary to her.

SamwizeGamgee
I am just focusing on what I can do to better myself and be a good example to my kids. 

livednlearned
I don't think that at this point anything 'abnormal' happens to me physically when I am discussing the affair.  It has been beaten to death so much, there is no sting left to it.  I don't have much of a problem discussing it with anyone, not because I don't think that it is a big deal but just because I have come to terms with it and have discussed it so many times with my W as well as countless others (counselors, pastors etc).  In the past, I have been very emotional about it but at this point, I believe that I have processed the guilt and have come to terms that I cannot go back and undo it.  I guess that is where I will start to have physical symptoms.  I was telling her a few days ago during a discussion that I believe that I can do anything I put my mind to.  That was in response to where I put my focus.  She replied that if I can do anything I put my mind to then I need to go back and undo the past. 
I appreciate the scenario that you outlined, however, the way that would play out is I would be attacked for only caring about me and how I feel.

"You: "I'm having a hard time breathing deeply right now. My palms are sweaty and I feel this sense of dread in my stomach. My throat is constricted and I have a ringing in my ears. I need to go walk for 20 minutes and see if this clears up. I'll come back and we can talk about this when I'm feeling better."

Something like that would just bring more intensified anger from her because I was focusing me and being 'selfish'.  She has stated countless times that she doesn't care about how I feel etc and any pain that I experience is just a fraction of what I deserve.

WC

All emotions have physical sensations.

Sensations, not symptoms.

The absence of feeling is meaningful, too.

And any sensations you have when talk with her don't have to be about the affair itself -- they can be anger, frustration, despair that you are stuck, that she is insulting you, that you feel nothing. She is saying mean things to you and you are sticking around to hear more.

If you decide hey, I think I've heard this before. It hurts. Then you have some choices.

Say you decide to take a time out. Her intensifying anger when you take care of yourself is expected. Psychologists who help people in BPD relationships consider intensified BPD anger a necessary part of change, and to prepare for it as you start to use new skills. Some call BPD anger in response to this kind of change an extinction burst.

You are in a role and she isn't going to like you changing it.

Asking for a time out is to give you a time out. It isn't designed to change her, although often your change will lead to her better behavior over time, especially if you are consistent.

You are not asking her to care about how you feel.

You are showing yourself that you care how you feel, in that moment.

You are letting her know, without disdain for her, without stating it explicitly, that you will not discuss xyz if you do not feel emotionally safe. You don't have to say anything, either.

There is a section on justified guilt in Loving Someone with BPD by Shari Manning that might be helpful for you.

Guilt cannot be the final word in a relationship. Your wife isn't going to relinquish something that is working well for her. You have to be the emotional leader on this one.

Woodchuck - I hear you.  I am contemplating some of the same ideas.  How to be healthy, save myself, and also be a good example to my kids.  I'm trying to be a great dad.  For me, especially after how my D17 is treating me, it makes me think that I can be a better divorced dad than a married dad.  But, that is not _at all_ what I'm advising you.  I just am sympathizing with you that it's tough from several angles.
@ Skip, thanks, as always.   I did start a thread on it's own about forgiveness. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=328653.0
@ LnL - a great perspective.  I have to re-learn self-care, all the time.  I default to treating myself badly.