How long is to long before refusing to discuss the past

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Anyone that has followed my posts knows about the affair that I had about 12 years ago.  According to my W, it is the core of our problems.  I agree that it was a major issue and made things much worse in many ways.  However, I do not believe that it is the core as there were major problems before that.  She proposed this weekend that we attend an intensive affair recovery program.  The program is almost $4K.  It is available to take as an online course for about $700.  I told her that I was more than willing to invest into anything that would truly help our relationship but that I do not believe that the affair is the root of our issues.  She sent me the following:
https://www.marriageministry.org/rebuild-trust-after-an-affair/

1. The spouse who was unfaithful must immediately break all ties with the affair partner, or, in the case of pornography or sexual addiction, put all necessary boundaries in place. The spouse who was unfaithful might protest that this step is unreasonable, especially if they see their ex-lover at work or if running into each other is practically unavoidable. But, the temptation to resume the affair can be too strong, no matter how well-intentioned a the reforming spouse may be. Besides, your spouse will never be comfortable knowing that your ex is still in, or even near the picture. So, the spouse who was unfaithful must do whatever it takes to distance from and avoid the affair person, even if that means changing jobs or moving to a new area.
2. Disclose lies and secrets that have occurred. These will block trust, progress and intimacy with your spouse. This may need to be done in the presence of a pastor or counselor.

3. Agree to the assistance of spiritual mentors and/or accountability partners.

4. Commit to Christian counseling including sorting through the issues leading up to the crisis and making necessary changes.

5. The partner who was unfaithful needs to take personal responsibility for the damage done to the spouse and family, without shifting blame.

6. The partner who was unfaithful needs to allow your spouse the time necessary to heal without applying guilt or added stress.

7. Create an environment of trustworthiness with your partner. Be transparent in all your activities. Share with your spouse important ways you will be faithful.

I have followed every single one of those steps for the last 12 years.  I have always taken 100% responsibility, not ever blaming her at all.  I have sought counsel both individual as well as couples counseling.  I have been open about my whereabouts and communication.  I have cut ties with anyone that she considers a threat regardless of how I feel.  I have waited 12 years for healing to take place but the wound is just as raw as if it happened yesterday. 
My question is, where do I draw the line or should I even draw a line?  I do not want to be insensitive to how she feels.  I understand that the hurt and betrayal is unlike any other.  At the same time, I do not know what more I can do to help bring healing and I am tired of constantly being beat up for the same thing over and over.  As I have mentioned in another thread, she is now talking divorce and basing that off her telling me before we got married that she would divorce me if I ever cheated on her.  12 years is a long time to wait to follow through on that.  She is claiming that I have not taken any accountability for that or anything else and that I don't believe that I deserve any 'consequences' but will not expound on what consequences she believes are appropriate.  I am just tired and do not know what the healthiest way forward is for both of us.  I would love there to be true healing and be able to move forward but it does not seem that is possible.

WC

[Woodchuck]

Anyone that has followed my posts knows about the affair that I had about 12 years ago.  According to my W, it is the core of our problems.  I agree that it was a major issue and made things much worse in many ways.  However, I do not believe that it is the core as there were major problems before that.  She proposed this weekend that we attend an intensive affair recovery program.  The program is almost $4K.  It is available to take as an online course for about $700.  I told her that I was more than willing to invest into anything that would truly help our relationship but that I do not believe that the affair is the root of our issues.  She sent me the following:
https://www.marriageministry.org/rebuild-trust-after-an-affair/

1. The spouse who was unfaithful must immediately break all ties with the affair partner, or, in the case of pornography or sexual addiction, put all necessary boundaries in place. The spouse who was unfaithful might protest that this step is unreasonable, especially if they see their ex-lover at work or if running into each other is practically unavoidable. But, the temptation to resume the affair can be too strong, no matter how well-intentioned a the reforming spouse may be. Besides, your spouse will never be comfortable knowing that your ex is still in, or even near the picture. So, the spouse who was unfaithful must do whatever it takes to distance from and avoid the affair person, even if that means changing jobs or moving to a new area.
2. Disclose lies and secrets that have occurred. These will block trust, progress and intimacy with your spouse. This may need to be done in the presence of a pastor or counselor.

3. Agree to the assistance of spiritual mentors and/or accountability partners.

4. Commit to Christian counseling including sorting through the issues leading up to the crisis and making necessary changes.

5. The partner who was unfaithful needs to take personal responsibility for the damage done to the spouse and family, without shifting blame.

6. The partner who was unfaithful needs to allow your spouse the time necessary to heal without applying guilt or added stress.

7. Create an environment of trustworthiness with your partner. Be transparent in all your activities. Share with your spouse important ways you will be faithful.

I have followed every single one of those steps for the last 12 years.  I have always taken 100% responsibility, not ever blaming her at all.  I have sought counsel both individual as well as couples counseling.  I have been open about my whereabouts and communication.  I have cut ties with anyone that she considers a threat regardless of how I feel.  I have waited 12 years for healing to take place but the wound is just as raw as if it happened yesterday. 
My question is, where do I draw the line or should I even draw a line?  I do not want to be insensitive to how she feels.  I understand that the hurt and betrayal is unlike any other.  At the same time, I do not know what more I can do to help bring healing and I am tired of constantly being beat up for the same thing over and over.  As I have mentioned in another thread, she is now talking divorce and basing that off her telling me before we got married that she would divorce me if I ever cheated on her.  12 years is a long time to wait to follow through on that.  She is claiming that I have not taken any accountability for that or anything else and that I don't believe that I deserve any 'consequences' but will not expound on what consequences she believes are appropriate.  I am just tired and do not know what the healthiest way forward is for both of us.  I would love there to be true healing and be able to move forward but it does not seem that is possible.

WC

[jsgirl360]

Hi Woodchuck,  I hope you're having a nice weekend... .

Coming from someone who is having an affair... .

This program looks like it could be helpful to a neurotypical couple who love each other and are both committed to saving the marriage.  It's rather expensive (I know money isn't an issue when you're willing to do just about anything to save the marriage). After reading countless marriage books and articles over the past 12 years, searching for a solution,  I've noticed that if they're not specifically geared toward BPD... .while possibly wonderful for a healthy couple, they just don't work for someone who is BPD. I'm not saying this is definitely the case with this program. I'm just saying I wouldn't go in with the highest of expectations.  I don't recall if your wife is aware of or acknowledges her BPD diagnosis.  If so, maybe she could seek out a marriage program that specifically deals with this.

#4 particularly caught my eye. The affair didn't happen out of a vacuum.  Wife would need to acknowledge certain behaviors and patterns in the marriage that influenced your decision to have an affair.  This is huge for someone with BPD as the person would have to take some responsibility and work on changing patterns that hurt their partner.

All the other steps seem to focus on the person who had the affair changing his/her behavior and proving their trustworthiness and taking responsibility.  This is understandable.  However, there's just so much more to it. The bottom line is both partners need to work together in resolving the issues.

[Woodchuck]

Thank you jsgirl360.  I am having a decent weekend.  I hope yours was good!  Thank you for your input!

I agree that it would be amazing for 2 healthy individuals that really wanted to work on things.  I don't believe that we will be utilizing this as she won't commit to anything.  I guess what I am really trying to determine is if there is a point where I should draw a line about addressing the past.  I have no problem talking about things and making forward progress, however, I do not see the benefit of going round and round and round and round.  It is like we are on a merry go round but we are supposed to be going on a cross country trip.  I don't expect her to forget.  Heck, as I have told her, I am not going to forget myself, but I do think that we can move forward if the proper steps are taken.  But what to do if the proper steps are not taken and I, the offender, have done everything I can possibly do to make things better? 

You are correct, the affair did not happen in a vacuum.  My W's behaviors did have an influence but there is a delicate line between that and blaming her.  I have made it a point not to blame her and she has never been open to discussing anything other than me, if that make sense.  As I have mentioned in other posts, she has the mindset that if my wants/needs/feelings etc are not in line with hers, they don't matter.  So, for example, if her complete disinterest in going out on dates or 'refusing' to write little 'love notes' for me or wear things that I enjoy seeing her in on occasion had an influence on me stepping outside our marriage, it doesn't matter to her because she doesn't see any of those things as important.
I have spent 12 years attempting to prove my trustworthiness and focus on her/us and nothing has changed, aside from the fact that I will not make the same mistake of finding someone else to meet my needs while I am still married.  It is simply not worth the pain and turmoil that it has cost me.

[Woodchuck]

So just as a current example, I asked my W tonight what she needed from me to help move forward.  Her response?  "You figure it out!".  I replied that it is quite obvious that I am not able to figure it out on my own.  Her reply to that?  "Well go talk to your T and she can help you figure it out".  I know, I know, I should just disengage and walk away and take care of me.  It is so frustrating though. 

WC

[Cat Familiar]

From my experience with my BPD mother, apparently some pwBPD never forget, when they think they've been wronged. I had graduated from college and I still heard her complain to my father that he didn't install a screen door the summer she was pregnant with me. I just recently did the math   and she was only a little bit pregnant during that summer, since I was born in April.    But she stubbornly clung to that slight for decades.

Your wife has got your cojones on a platter over a bad choice you made 12 years ago. Do you really think she's gonna let that leverage go so easily? I don't think so. She'll milk it for all it's worth.

I think your best strategy is to say that you've done everything you could imagine to make it better and if she can't accept that, it's on her. Obviously forgiveness is not her strong suit.

Of course, you may not want to approach it in the manner I suggest. I'm rather obviously too straightforward at times, but what I mean to impart to you is that she is not likely to forgive and forget.

I know of whence I speak because my first husband was a serial adulterer. So I did have to forgive--but I never forgot. But after so many times forgiving, it became really stupid to continue on that track, but whatever. It is possible to rescue a relationship, should you really want to, from infidelity. It sounds like she's content with holding it over your head.

[formflier]

What counseling have you done together on this?

My wife tried to use some paranoid and some legitimate issues to "hold up" progress in family counseling.

This was several years ago.

The T (older PhD level male) went along with it.  I addressed it.  Then... .he turned to my wife after a couple of months when she was hemming and hawing and trying to milk the issue some more, that she needed to let me go... .or forgive an move on.  No more waffling.

I can't adequately write how stern he was... .but the gist of it was that "you can't keep punishing him for something you claim to have forgiven."

This isn't something that YOU can handle all by yourself WC.  However, if she won't go to "real" counseling with you... .then you could say that's the only place you will discuss it.

Does this "discussion" come in cycles?

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not in a position to tell you what to do as nobody knows all the details about your marriage, but IMHO, a 4K weekend isn't going to fix the situation.

I do know two couples who have recovered from infidelity and it took time and effort on both of them. I am no expert on this and haven't dealt with it myself but this is what I observed. While the spouse who cheats does need to own their behavior, the other spouse also has to be willing to look in the mirror and take ownership of any behaviors on their part for the breakdown of the marriage

I also personally see cheating in two categories- one is where the marriage breaks down and a person cheats, then feels remorseful and wants to fix the marriage. The other is a serial cheater who isn't remorseful and cheating is a pattern. The couples I know are in the first category and I think you are too.

The problem that I don't think this weekend can fix is the perspective of the pwBPD- and the tendency to project and deny which keeps them from looking at their own behavior. The inner unhappiness is projected outward- there is something to blame and "fixing it" is the solution ( to them) but once it is fixed, then the problem still is there.

As to the cost, if you can afford a 4K weekend, then there is probably something you and your wife will learn from this, but my hunch is that this isn't going to be THE solution and if you can't afford it, then the stress of the cost needs to be considered.

You also mentioned that your wife has saved some money. You could say " honey, I don't have the budget for this, but if you wish to pay for it, I will go with you". Yes, you made a mistake but you can only do your part to repair things. She has to be able to resolve or at least manage her feelings about it if she wants to move past it in the marriage. It is interesting that she brings this up after talking about divorce to you. Does she want to leave or try to fix things?

[pearlsw]

Hi Woodchuck,

I've seen this topic pop up on a few of your threads and I wasn't sure where to pop in and join the discussion. You might want to check out the posts of Wickerman, BeagleGirl and myself over on Learning as they touch on this topic from various angles. I tend to be a bit busy and stray from keeping up over there, but you can hop onto those posts and join in.

I agree with others who say that after 12 years of this she is holding on to it to beat you up with it, and it works. A person has to want to recover and get over this, hard as it is for some, to be able to get past it.

I had a partner that stole from me to do drugs, and after I put a plan in place to let him show some remorse and move on it from it we did that for awhile, but when he stole from me again, although it was a small amount, I was done and I broke up with him. I bring this up because it falls in the category of betrayal/trust. I knew I could not trust him and I could not go on with him after that sad as it made me.

After this many years your wife, in my opinion, and I'll grant you, I am biased, needs to either heal and forgive or let you go. She does not have to forget, but beating you up tears at the core of the relationship bond. Having BPD you are bound to hear this over and over, and I suggest you find your own stopping point with hearing any more about it. I'd just say, "I hear that you feel hurt. That is understandable. I can't help you heal with this. If you need to talk about it you must speak with a therapist." Something to that effect.

If I was you, and I did want to do this, speaking personally here, I'd just do the online for $700 one and split the costs. That is not a total loss if it doesn't work out. At best, all you are really able to do is show a good faith effort that you care about your marriage, and her hurt feelings, but there has to be some moving forward and not endless beating you up over it. She owes you that, or to leave, to be honest.

Please, whatever you do, don't accept endless beating you up over it. She has stayed around a long time past what happened, and she owes it to you and herself to also make a good faith effort to improve things. Don't let yourself get stuck in an endlessly one down position - no one should have to exist in a one down position.  I know you feel remorse over what happened, but no one should get to endlessly mistreat you.

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Enabler]

Hey Woodchuck,

I concur with the others and agree that the weekend is unlikely to solve any issues as much as flowers on a Friday rarely make up for disgraceful behavior on a Thursday night.

The thing in play here is emotional memory. Emotional memory has NO time series, emotional experiences don't lessen over time and they are just as real today as they were 12 years ago. My guess is that your W feels exactly the same today as she did the day she found out about the affair... .that's down to the physical sensations, sense of panic and as though her entire world has been blown to smithereens. I guess you could see it as PTSD. This 'event' has left a burning marker on her emotional memory and she constantly refers to it. Any event remotely similar to that event will reference the 'event' and act like an electric shock of emotional stimuli... .and every time she relives that experience for reasons totally out of your control she will blame you. SO... .it's not a matter of when and if she will stop blaming you, the likelihood is until SHE does work on reprocessing this event, she is unlikely to heal from it. In much the same way that a rape victim could be completely debilitated by triggers, war veterans by loud bangs etc etc your W is reliving this constantly.

Additional complications might also be that because of her BPD, she has a predisposition to negatively ruminate of these negative emotional shocks, likely take those feelings, add some delusional thoughts and turn something small such as "he said that when he had an affair" and pull in a whole swathe of other unassociated information (and fabrications) such that all of a sudden you are having an affair all the time and that you are reminding her of said affair CONSTANTLY.

In my opinion there is NOTHING you can do to stop this process from happening. There is nothing you can say or do to stop her from reliving this painful experience, the only way she/you will find restitution from her trauma reenactment is to reprocess the trauma (and likely other emotional traumas from childhood) independently from you.

On the other hand, you must show her that it is no longer your problem to atone for. You have shown beyond reasonable expectations in 12 years that you are trustworthy. By asking her what you can do, validates to her that there is/should be something you can do when there isn't... .and yes, this is tricky because as discussed above, she never feels like you have atoned for your sins because if you had, she would feel like it, and she wouldn't feel constantly reminded. Most people think rationally, they refer to their rational mind, accept the facts and their decision (to forgive) infidelity and choose a new path. When emotionally triggered they refer to this rational choice, weight up new facts and choose not to see similarities between 2 unassociated events, till such point where triggers are no longer triggers... .time heals. Your W cannot do this as she refers not to her rational decision but her emotional memory (timeless).

What is your response to her divorce threats?

[Woodchuck]

Wow, there is a lot to digest and respond to since last night.  I won't terrorize everyone with using quotes but rather just try and respond to the questions that were posed.

Cat-
She is of the mindset that she has forgiven me.  She is also of the mindset that I have not faced/experienced the consequences that I deserve but will not elaborate on what those consequences should be.  She has attended anger management classes and forgiveness classes and was part of a women's affair recovery group for a few years.  The 'issue' that I have had with telling her that 'it is on her, I cannot do anything' more is that it seems dismissive to me but maybe that is what is needed as opposed to continuing to feed into it.

FF-
We have done couples counseling, individual counseling both with church leaders as well as licensed T's.  We have attended multiple marriage seminars, read countless books.  The list is quite extensive. 
As far as a T effectively confronting my W, that has always resulted in us leaving the T and not returning.  One of the last pastors that we spoke with told her that she needed to focus on herself and learning what it means to forgive (that is a rough paraphrase, he was a bit more tactful than that).  That resulted in her storming out of the office and later telling what a horrible person he was.  I highly doubt that she will be willing to see a counselor and if she does, they need to be very skilled or it will just be a waste of time.

NotWendy-
I appreciate your input and I do agree that a $4k weekend would not do much and I do not have that kind of money to invest.  I did tell her that I would go if she was able to fund it.  When I proposed that, she dropped the idea like a hot rock.  I have no idea what she really wants.  The communication with her is dizzying at best.  If I knew what she really wanted, it would make things a bit easier but I believe that I need to kind of drop hoping for that and focus on what I want and determine what is really attainable.

Pearl-
Thank you for jumping in!  I will have to look up some of the posts you mentioned.  As I mentioned above, she believes that she has forgiven but that I have not faced whatever consequences or justice that I deserve.  As far as the $700 option, even with splitting costs, when I mentioned that, she lost interest.  It is almost like she just wants to bleed my financially and see how far she can make me go.  This is just a perception, not based on any tangible facts.  I am getting to the point where I am viewing her actions more as mistreatment than something that I deserve for my failures.  It is a tough bridge for me to cross.

Enabler-
I think it might be slightly better than flowers as she hates flowers but I do get your point.
I understand about emotional memory.  I have a handful of things that I will never forget but I do not allow them to consume me.  I don't focus on them and make them the center of my life.  I have done that in the past and it just makes me miserable and changes nothing for the better.  For example, my dad would call me a prodigal son quite often when I was growing up, even today, decades later, that phrase causes hurt inside but I recognize it for what it is and let it go.  That does not compare to the hurt caused by infidelity but more just as an example of understanding emotional memory. 
My response to her threats is that I am at peace with whatever she decides to do.  I have voiced that a divorce is not what I want but I will not stand in her way if that is what she wants.  With that said, I am forming a plan in the event that she either moves forward towards a divorce or a divorce becomes the only viable option. 


Thank you again to everyone for the input.  The support here has been extremely helpful!

WC

[formflier]

Hey man... .my vibe right now is a NO to online or weekend retreat.

What I'm hearing is multiple "things" where she "rejected" anything that pointed at her... right? 

Asked another way:  Is there anything that pointed at her... that she has "owned" or "improved"... .Anything?

Hang in there man!

FF

[Woodchuck]

FF-
The short answer is no, there is not anything specific that she has owned. At times she has halfway owned something but the vast majority of the time that consists of a comment stating that she knows she is not perfect.  Anything specific that is brought up is a result of something that someone else did or said.  There is a way to justify anything when talking with her. 

WC

[SamwizeGamgee]

I had a discussion with a friend a while back about forgiving.  So this topic is fresh for me.
I will suggest that BPD symptoms don't include forgiving or forgetting.  Looking back over my marriage, I realized that in the first 17 years of marriage my wife had apologized exactly once. and with the words "I'm sorry, but it's not my fault."  Which seems a little short on accountability in my perspective.  I actually get a chuckle thinking about that phrase, and my wife's first apology.  Part of what makes that mindset so solid is that in her mind, everything was my fault.  Everything.  

Last year, (at about marriage year 20) she described that she was very upset that I had gotten the wrong kind of hotel for our honeymoon (as in 20 years ago).  She did say this time that she forgives me for that.  Then there's the episode that I've described on these boards more than once where I got a few days of silent treatment and then a whopper of a rage - like fully changing color, black-pitted eyes, rage of Hades - because I had made her favorite omelets and served them to her in bed.  The sin was that I was doing it to be "nice" - and not because I loved her - in her mind. That's just a few of the offenses that she will never forget - though denying them or her actions later.  My marriage has also been pretty frigid due to her punishing me for being physically romantic with a GF - from two years before I dated my now wife.

I can't fathom what it would be like if I actually had an affair, even more so getting caught, or her finding out.  

She has since said she forgives me, for a lot.  Which now evokes a hidden anger inside me, because her "forgiving" me means that she's already projected, blamed, and been the judge, jury, and executioner concerning my [whatever] fault.   I"m mostly mad at myself for not waking up inside for so long, rather I just took on the blame and guilt and tried harder for too many years.

Just my perspective that a weekend session, like most couples counseling, would be effective with two normal persons.  Counseling can to wonders to open up communication, improve intimacy, teach financial discipline, or to work on other crisis areas.  However, all the couple's therapy in the world still can't heal an individual.   I'm of a mind to say $4,000 could be used rather creatively to enhance a relationship.  Maybe start with a movie night? ;)
I'm also suspicious of a short term fix.  In my imagination it seems that consistent small changes (and smaller expenses) over time will heal and improve more.  I suspect any BPD sufferer can put on a stellar show for a weekend retreat.  It's the long race that sorts them out.  

I can't advise anything, but, I sympathize with the feelings of being constantly held accountable and unforgiven for so long.  (actually, I rocked out to Metallica's song Unforgiven more than once as I figured out my situation).  

Actually, I might ask if you've read "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward.  It got me over the hump of my own projected guilt.  Once I've forgiven myself, and made amends as needed, there's no more leverage for blackmail.  Admit, disclose as needed, and live on.  Good to read. 


You are excused from reading the following if you prefer to keep it sanitary.  
When dog takes a poop on the yard, he kicks some dirt over it and walks on, like nothing happened.  He just goes on forward.  What's done is done.  
We have all made mistakes.  Some very serious, as you know.  But, you've kicked up enough dirt, time to move on.

[formflier]

WC,

I'm still trying to put together something "thoughtful" for you to say.

Here is my gut...

1.  If she pays for either... .participate and do your best.  (I suppose other things could come up that would make me backpedal... but... )

2.  I would not explicitly lay it out like that.  But here is the thing.  Boundaries.  Her ideas... her funds... .her work... you support that with your presence.

3.  You need to get some succinct statement that will basically go something like... ."oh... I'm glad you want to discuss issue (fill in the blank)... would you like me to call pastor (fill in blank) or therapist (fill in blank)


Question:  When she refused to go back to counseling... .I'm hoping you kept going... right?  How did that play out?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Add me to the voices voting that a weekend isn't going to generate positive and lasting behavioral change. And I'm rather appalled at the $4K price tag. So it shows commitment on the part of the participants, but it also reeks of a money generator, preying upon people whose marriages are in dire circumstances.

It's been a while since I've participated in a learning seminar, so maybe I'm just out of the loop, but it triggers my suspicious nature.

[formflier]

Me:
My understanding is that you believe that I am THE problem and everything is my fault and I am solely responsible for where we are at and I don’t take responsibility for anything.  
Am I wrong?   If not, I don’t know how to work with that.  If I am wrong, then I need to understand where you really are.  

Wife:
I would say I more or less agree with that.  My perspective is you have been a terrible spouse.

WC,

I can't imagine this type of conversation in anyway helping your marriage or your divorce.  I'm wondering why you would have brought this up?

Was there really any shock at what she said?

I'm thinking that topics you pretty much understand her stance on... .leave them alone.  It kinda appears like it turns into a "slugfest" (maybe a bit overstated)... .you are shocked she believes this and she reminds you how horrible you are.

I doubt she will change her mind.

I doubt you will change your mind.  (I would encourage you not to change your mind that this is shocking)

This might be a bit of a big assignment... not sure, but could you make a list of the things you brought up to her in the last few days?

I'm kinda getting the vibe you are dumping gas on a fire... .nothing good comes from that.

FF

[Woodchuck]

WC,

I can't imagine this type of conversation in anyway helping your marriage or your divorce.  I'm wondering why you would have brought this up?

Was there really any shock at what she said?

I'm thinking that topics you pretty much understand her stance on... .leave them alone.  It kinda appears like it turns into a "slugfest" (maybe a bit overstated)... .you are shocked she believes this and she reminds you how horrible you are.

I doubt she will change her mind.

I doubt you will change your mind.  (I would encourage you not to change your mind that this is shocking)

This might be a bit of a big assignment... not sure, but could you make a list of the things you brought up to her in the last few days?

I'm kinda getting the vibe you are dumping gas on a fire... .nothing good comes from that.

FF

FF-
I can definitely see how you would see that in the conversation.  I had two reasons behind asking the question.  First, it was in response to her bringing up going to a marriage or affair recovery seminar.  If she thinks that things are as I outlined, it demonstrates that attending any kind of seminar is most likely going to be worthless so knowing that she thinks that way allows me to just let go of the idea.  Secondly and maybe more importantly, her stance is now documented in black and white in a simple statement.  It is much easier to present that to anyone in the future rather than having to provide them moutains of data to piece together.   I alreafy knew what her answer was most likely going to be but gave her the option to adjust it.  As expected, she did not and I can move on.  It may not make sense and it may have not been the best way to go about things but it just makes it clear that she has no interest in putting any effort in as she believes it is all me.  Is it a pink elephant?   I believe so and her statement or validation of my statement makes it much clearer to me. 

WC

[Notwendy]

Fear of abandonment is a big issue with BPD as well as others who have grown up with dysfunction. It is actually discussed in ACA groups as well- these are adult children whose parents were "absent" due to drugs, alcohol, other addictions or dysfunction. While you can not have helped your military career, if you were going to a dangerous area- the fear would be understandable for any spouse and I imagine hard on your wife. Then, the affair must have triggered her abandonment fears as well, along with the expected upset of that. As Skip said, there really isn't a time frame for dealing with that, and I don't know if this is something she can deal with well.

A relationship requires vulnerability and that leaves one open to the possibility of hurt. This is difficult for many people and that includes pwBPD.

Your wife seems to have constructed a tough shield. I don't know if she really wants a divorce or if saying this is her way of controlling her own pain and fears- if she says/does it, maybe she will be in control of the situation. This is tough on your end. Since it is tough to know what she really wants, it may be better to decide about the marriage according to what you want. If you want to end it, or keep trying, then decide according to your wishes. By keep trying, I don't mean her changing. She's fearful and acting on her fears. Your part is to recognize this and not react to it or take it personally.

I know that you are not serious about having an affair to give her a reason. That's a means of acting on her feelings, not your making your decision. It also violates your own values. You did it and realized it wasn't something good for you. That's enough of a reason to not repeat that. What I am getting at is- any action aimed at changing her thinking or feelings puts you in the realm of codependency, and when you act from your own values, you stay out of that mess.  

[formflier]

Did she move?  How did that go?

That's pretty blatant.

FF

[Woodchuck]

Did she move?  How did that go?

That's pretty blatant.

FF

She moved so our son could come and sit next to me.  He defused the situation by offering to sit next to me after she made it clear she had no problem making a scene.  Due to the place being a buffet, I had an opportunity to come back and sut next to her when our D wasup getting more food but I decided that would cause more harm than good. 

[formflier]

I have a couple broad statements and I also want to challenge you to think about a few days prior to the question/issue below, other things you brought up.  Even if in response to her raising an issue

1.  You and I (and I suspect many others here) are very rational people.  (perhaps logical is better word... perhaps philosophical).  Contrast this with BPDish types that lead with their ever changing and deeply scarred emotions

 Secondly and maybe more importantly, her stance is now documented in black and white in a simple statement.

If you document this once... .and never bring it back up again, you are likely ok.  That being said I get a "big picture" vibe that this "type" of thing... .this "type" of "clarification" is a regular part of your relationship.

I'm not for a second suggesting you are doing it out of malice.  I am suggesting this type of clarification is "adding fuel to the fire... .pitching her a fastball etc etc.

She will knock it out of the park everytime.  Not because she is rationally thinking through what she wants to "document" with you... .she wants to express her extreme emotions and resentments.

2.  All the effort you have put in over the years  I understand this is a considerable effort and you are "underwhelmed" with the results.  I would hope you could stay "at the strategic level" and decided to pour all that effort (going forward), into YOU, your kids and your wife (in that order and wife only when she is "being healthy")  So... .no more participating in conversations about it being all your fault.

My hope for you seems to be along the lines of pearlsw  I hope you can gather your thoughts and evaluate the relationship... .evaluate where your wife is.

Before you really evaluate your wife... .I'm hoping we can get you to consistently "not add fuel to the fire".
I certainly still do it from time to time.  My goal is to catch myself quickly and disengage.  I actually did this before school this morning.  My wife made a big deal about parking two vehicles in the driveway last night.  She put her vehicle in first and D21 pulled in behind her... blocking her in.  

I had been parking her vehicle halfway up the drive... forcing everyone else to street park, knowing that my wife would leave first.  Well, my wife is upset and for some reason I brought up "this is why I (insert FF explanation).  So... .my wife stormed around the house used a bunch of F bombs in front of the kids... .rearranged the vehicles and then roaaaaared away from the house... .in a 15 pax van.

Sigh... .bad FF.  

Back to you WC.  I hope you get my general idea.  I'm pretty sure you and the kids will be happier with "more energy" getting "put in" and I'm positive your wife will be "all over the place".  With consistency... .she will likely settle down after a few months.  

Then... see what "settle down" looks like.  Make some decisions about your marriage and your role in your marriage.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

She moved so our son could come and sit next to me.  He defused the situation by offering to sit next to me after she made it clear she had no problem making a scene.  Due to the place being a buffet, I had an opportunity to come back and sut next to her when our D wasup getting more food but I decided that would cause more harm than good. 

This might seem to fly in the face of my previous advice... .and perhaps it does.

I would have come back and sat next to her.  However... that's based on where I am with my wife now. 

She will occasionally do these kinds of things, she actually did something like this on Sunday.  I said I'd be sad to miss out but would let her take our birthday boy out by herself.  I would take him out later when it worked for me.

It was public... she was being b$tchy and I was staying relaxed and "nonchalant".  I think she kinda realized that a bunch of kids eyes were on her and she started backpedaling. 

She was trying to get me to stop doing work and "immediately" leave to go to dinner with her and a child having a birthday.  We had made plans for later, she was trying to change them with "bully" tactics.

I finished the work I was doing and we went out and had a great time together.

Now... .I've been consistent in (mostly) not biting for a long time. 

Anyway... .blatant public disrespect like you experienced needs to be addressed "in the moment" and most likely very differently than you have been "addressing" it in the past.

The key is to "leave" the bad behavior with her... .and for you to show "healthy" yet "firm" leadership.

She will freak out about this for a while.

FF

[Woodchuck]

FF-
I should have clarified a bit more on the documentation mentality.  I have no desire or intention to bring it back up to her.  The documentation is more for me and helping any T or L understand where she is at in a nitshell without having to share pages and pages for them to sift through. I would be extatic if she approached me and told me that she wanted to drop all the hurt from the past and focus on the future.  There would be no pushback from me or me asking, well what about this or what about that.  I would have to know that she was 100% committed to that and in reality I think I have a better chance of winning the lottery than that happening but ‘all things are possible’.  In the end, the documenting is not with a mentality to use against he but more for me.  I don’t know if that makes sense.  I don’t wish anything bad towards her and regardless how things progress, my hearts desire is to see her happy and full of joy.  

WC

[Woodchuck]

The key is to "leave" the bad behavior with her... .and for you to show "healthy" yet "firm" leadership.

She will freak out about this for a while.

FF

I think the key difference between you W and mine is yours has at least some element of respect for you on some level.  My W acts like she is god and shows absolutely no respect for anyone that differs from or questions her.  It seemed the best option for me was to let her do her thing and not try to save her by telling one of the kids to come sit with me. 

WC

[formflier]

I get that... .yet you really knew how she felt... right?  It would be one thing if you were truly shocked... .but I don't get that vibe.

There is another "big picture" thing to consider.

Many rational people (like us) "approach" the world through documentation, consistent rational argument... etc etc.

Guess what... .you wife doesn't.

A therapist (and a relationship with a pwBPD) is not about "proof".  It's about feelings and "dealing with them".

I'm not suggesting you "never" document or clarify.  I am suggesting it should be rare and in the short run, probably a good idea to drop it for a few months.

Another way of saying... .you are fighting the wrong battle.  Or perhaps saying that you wan "win" this battle and loose the war.

Stay strategic... .get out of the details, at least for a while.

FF

[formflier]

I think the key difference between you W and mine is yours has at least some element of respect for you on some level.  

Yes... .EXACTLY.  I wonder how/why my wife has some respect for me?  What do you think?

FF

[Woodchuck]

Another way of saying... .you are fighting the wrong battle.  Or perhaps saying that you wan "win" this battle and loose the war.

Stay strategic... .get out of the details, at least for a while.

FF

I am sure that is what I need to do. It is a tall order though as that is my personality.  I am extremely detail oriented and find it very difficult to pull away from that.  I am sure I can, I just need to purpose to do it.

WC

[formflier]

It was mine too... .and still is, I just focus it differently.

Checklists work good for me (mental ones).  I suggest you play around with some checklists to "complete" before opening your mouth.

Make sense?

FF

[Woodchuck]

Yes... .EXACTLY.  I wonder how/why my wife has some respect for me?  What do you think?

FF

I am sure that there are many reasons for that but I do understand where you are going with it.  What about how she shows the same complete lack of respect for anyone else that she doesn’t see eye to eye with?   Yesterday she claimed that the church youth group leaders ‘have the sense of a donkey’.   I guess my point is, it isn’t just me.  It is everyone.  The only difference between me and everyone else is she has not completely painted me black yet or chooses to stay despite painting me black.  I think that she first has to show respect for her God and beliefs and until she does that, expecting anything different is useless.  I told her yesterday that if she had such a problem with the youth leader that she needed to address it with him and if things were not resolved, she needed to take the issues up with his supervisor.  I explained that was the biblical way to handle conflict.  Her response was that she handled it but would guve no details or answers other than she had handled it.  She refused to answer whether or not she had spoken with the youth leaders supervisor.   As the pastor and others have pointed out, she refuses to be accountable to anyone about anything.  That is not just based off what I have said to them but their direct involvement with her.  

WC

[Woodchuck]

It was mine too... .and still is, I just focus it differently.

Checklists work good for me (mental ones).  I suggest you play around with some checklists to "complete" before opening your mouth.

Make sense?

FF

Yes it sure does.  I have spent the last 20 years following checklists.