BPDFamily.com

Hey all… I haven’t updated in a while…

I guess I could use some calming down and some words of wisdom from you guys/gals.

Last I mentioned, my lady friend and I had gone to breakfast, and things were ambiguous at best… Well that even got a little weirder, before it seems to have gotten better…

I asked her out for pizza with her grandson and my daughter, and we got together for the evening. She did not seem to be in a good space. She looked depressed, agitated, barely looked at me. We barely said anything to each other for the first hour and a half, and then something strange happened.

Her grandson started to beg to have a sleepover with my daughter, I didn’t know what to say.  It was strange, so I kind of ignored the request, until it repeatedly came up, and then my lady friend had to get in on it… I kind of remained mum, and then after not too long, my lady friend basically suggested she could come for the evening and stay over so that the kids could have a sleepover.

I didn’t think it was a particularly good idea, under the circumstances, but I thought what the heck, and I went for it.

The rest of the night was just weird. Very uncomfortable. And then, as we are getting ready for bed, we both lay down, and I felt about as stupid as could imagine… She says to me “I’m sorry that this is so awkward“.  I didn’t know what to make of it, or what she was trying to say, since there was no way to know what exactly why she was feeling so awkward… so I paused for a long while and said “I’m here to listen in any way that you might need”…

That seem to open the door to what she was experiencing over the last two weeks, and as I suspected, she had been thoroughly confused about the exact things I had been thinking she was… The wee hours conversation where I tried to get her to think about her break up text, the political discussion at the restaurant, etc.  She said she had been trying to make heads or tails, and from what I could tell, she was likely splitting between black and white.  She felt that I was trying to push her away with those conversations, and she just started to wonder if this is how things were going to be from here on in if she was to remain in the relationship.  A lot of what she described was not actually what I thought was happening in those conversations, but I just listened.

I’ll bet she spoke for a half an hour with me almost saying nothing, until I responded to a few of the things that she said very calmly, without a lot of justification of what was going on, and with positive reinforcement.

The talk seem to go really well, and I bet we talked for three hours. It seemed very cathartic to her that I was willing to hear what she had to say, and as we went to sleep, at 3:30 AM, it seemed like we were back on track and in a good place.  

At the risk of being overly descriptive, we were not “intimate“ after that, which I would have enjoyed, but I thought it would be good to take our time… The next morning was very sweet but she had to get up to go to work, so the morning was rather quick and uneventful.

Since then, we have been corresponding as we normally have, more or less… Some of the endearing things have been a little bit hard to read, like the usual end of telephone call “love you”s have been a little shaky… I’ve had to initiate. Usually it’s her.

Today, we had a few hours, and my daughter and I got together with her for a late brunch and a nice walk through the woods… Which she clearly enjoyed.

But still, when I approached her upon meeting up with her, it seemed that all she was comfortable with was to offer me  a cheek to kiss, which was the same upon departing, although I gave her a nice hug, as I always do, regardless of where we are at.  Still, I get the sense that she’s kind of holding back and not really allowing herself to be fully in or out.

So upon leaving, on one hand, it was nice that we had a nice meal and walk together, but I left feeling as if I’m being kept at arms length… At times I was impatient and just fantasized about asking her whether she was in or out, and other times I knew that I had to be patient and let her go through whatever she is going through.

I guess I’m a little bit disappointed that after our long talk and bonding Armen arm after that, that we would be moving a little more quickly to regain where we were before. I guess I’m impatient.

Any words of wisdom that you guys might be able to impart? I’m a little unsettled about stuff. Part of me thinks that by this time, she should be able to tell whether she wants to continue or not… And if she’s indecisive, I almost feel like considering starting to look elsewhere.

Thoughts?l

honestly, and you may be looking for more than this, but i think youre doing fine.

everything really seems to be going as expected (she brought up "stuff" when she was ready, she was confused about where things stood, she wanted to vent about the stuff she was mad about). you let her bring it up, and you listened.

i get that it feels uncomfortable, change always does.

i dont think things are nearly as ambiguous as they seem to you. its just awkward, and she clearly was feeling burned out. giving space helped with that. approaching her in a confident and upbeat way to just get together, as opposed to talking about "stuff" helped with that. listening to her vent helped with that.

now? like FF said, focus a lot on depositing in the fun account. thats how you get the spark back. show her a good time.

Dude!  Spike the ball and do a dance in the endzone! 

This is EXACTLY the vibe we were all looking for/advising.  Don't be shocked if more talks come up.  Don't use the same phrasing..but the same idea. 

Ditto to Once Removed..change is going to feel weird.  Solid work pressing forward doing "uncomfortable work"  |iiii |iiii |iiii |iiii   How is your self care doing?  Is there something you can "do" when you starting thinking and feeling weird about the relationship?  Walk?  Do pushups?

Keep up the good work!

Best,

FF

youve mentioned this previously. do you think its a bit of a defense mechanism?

Remember...a core part of what a pwBPD "lives with" are rapidly changing feelings.

In addition, many pwBPD are so "emotion based" that their feelings drive the way the perceive the world.  "Feelings = facts".

Last:  Sometimes those feelings are so intense they have a hard time remembering anything else.  So if today they think you are an azzhole...it's simply impossible for them to remember/imagine that yesterday you were their knight in shining armor.

I say all this to remind you that she will be "figuring out how she feels"...for a long time.

Your most helpful role in this is to remain "chill"..."neutral"..."accepting"..."non-reactive".  Once "it all comes out" and especially if it all comes out without you going nuclear...they will start to "know" on a more fundamental level that you are a safe person for their feelings and that will help their feelings "swing less"..which helps them feel safer...which helps their feelings swing less..(wash rinse repeat).

No..BPD never gets "cured" this way...but it and its affects on a relationship become much more manageable.

Best,

FF

Thank you guys for words of encouragement…

I’m doing OK right now, but I do have a sense of worry that this girl will just constantly be spiking like this.  Just like she says about me, I shake my head at the thought that this just might be what I have to manage if I continue with her… Split after split about every six weeks, or so. And I just don’t know how to manage this any better.

I guess I don’t feel as much optimism as you guys seem to have, and I’m wondering if I am really where I need to be with her at this point.

I pick up on little clues, and most of the time, as it is with other people as well, I usually interpret those clues fairly accurately.  For example, usually, upon parting after we have had a good time, we will both talk about what our next bunch of days look like and when we will get together next. I did ask her what her next bunch of days looked like, in order to get a sense of what our plans might be… but she uncharacteristically didn’t really give any insight as to when we might see each other next, other than to say “we will talk soon”.

I’m trying to handle that kind of thing by not making too much of a big deal about it, but I have no idea if and when I will see her again, and whether that open ended response was due to some thing that I might’ve said that made her feel uncomfortable. I just never know with her. It could be almost anything I say that is taken out of context, or made to be a much different story than it really was. I’ve seen that time after time after time. I never know what to expect and what to say.  Of course, this may all be due to my heightened sensitivity, considering a year and 2/3 of this kind of splitting.

Even though our texting correspondences had been getting a little bit back to normal in the last few days, it feels like she’s kind of pulling away again.  It’s only been 24 hours since I’ve seen her, but I’m getting a little clues… often times, she texts in the evenings on Thursday and wishes for me to have a good night. Silence. This morning, I wished her good morning when she was at work, and sent her a photo of a breakfast that I was having from the same place that we had breakfast yesterday, and with her knowing that I would’ve had to travel a fair amount out of my way to get there… Typically, her reply would be that she would ask me why I was over there, and give me a hard time about eating a high calorie breakfast twice in a row.  Her response this time around, very atypically, was “enjoy“. That was it. No “Hope you’re having a good morning“ or “what in the heck were you doing there two days in a row?“.

Of course, all of this is likely in my head, and she may have been going nuts at work, after having a day off from her chaotic job as an emergency room nurse practitioner. I know I need to give her lots of slack there.  “Enjoy“ just almost seems like a blow off perfunctory response.

So, what’s the point of this self-indulgent long winded post? My head is just going back-and-forth as to what to do next.

Given that her response to my text this morning seemed almost impersonal, I figure one strategy would be to wait for her to get back to me, but I fear if I do that, she may think that I am splitting on her, and get upset. I think I’ve seen that multiple times in the past.  However, there could be positive strategy in that, trying to set a boundary that if she answers something with a vague text, maybe it should be up to her to reach out next?

I think I know what I have to do. I have to continue living my life, as if she is not in it, whether she is or is not part of it. That’s not always easy to do, when I live mostly in isolation, with not a lot of people around. I suspect you guys hear this all the time on here.

Given that it’s clear that this girl is still wishy-washy on what and is up, do I continue giving her lots of space, and perhaps not text her again this afternoon to ask her how her day has been going, like I normally would… Or should I maybe check in with her this afternoon?

just read her. i think shes just telling you to do less of this.

youre pushing for texts and i love yous and signs that her interest is renewed. it isnt, yet, necessarily.

renew her interest by focusing on showing her a good time, and attracting her.

Yeah, her “interest“ seems to go up and down with the wind, and with her whims.  I am getting a bit weary.

I don’t know what to do with her. This is the first day since Wednesday that we haven’t been really talking normally, and I can’t really say why.

Do I check in with her and see how she’s doing, or let her come to me? I suspect if I don’t reach out to her she may be annoyed, thinking that she always had to be the one to make contact, even though I did so this morning, and she didn’t seem too interested and following up.

What to do?

Don't chase...so give it a day or two. 

Best,

FF

That’s kind of what I was thinking, but that’s unusual for me to not reach out in some form, multiple times per day, when things are going well.

For all I know, she could be stewing that I haven’t reached out more today, and I know without a doubt that she is wondering why, or thinking about it.

Why she hasn’t reached out, in turn, is a bit perplexing. 

It’s very difficult. For a couple of days, it seem things are going in a really good direction, and then suddenly, she goes cold again. That just seems so strange.

There is the fireworks thing this coming Monday, so if worse comes to worse, I’ll invite her to that, although that’s three days away.

So, you really think that not reaching out to her is a good strategy, right about now?

I’m starting to look for reasons why I should even be putting energy into this relationship. This girl seems incapable of sustaining it. 

She told me the other day she is still harboring mistrust about something stupid that happened 11 months ago, once again saying that the whole interaction was completely my fault, and saying she can’t get past it. I supposedly “threw her out“ at 3 AM in the morning, and yes, I have owned my part in it, and I did strongly suggest that she leave at that point, after her declaring that we were pretty much done… But then I pretty much begged her to stop and talk about it and try to come to an understanding, which she refused, as she was calling me every name in the book and packing her things. I even followed her all the way downstairs and outside and stood in front of her car door telling her she didn’t need to do this and to please stop and try to resolve it. No way.  Yet, I still “threw her out“, and she still brings up the fact that I didn’t call her to make sure she got home all right, even despite that her parting words were to never contact her again.

How can someone behave like that and not remember their own part in it?

I don’t know about this. I’m starting to think maybe she is right, and that it is damaged beyond repair.  I can’t keep doing this up-and-down thing, with her seeming OK, and then disappearing again. It just hurts.

So..I need some clarity here.  Did this discussion happen since the most recent "get back together".  (as in the past week or two?)

The "event" the discussion is about was how long ago?

How did this recent discussion come up?  How did it end (this most recent time)?

What was the total time of the most recent discussion? 

How much "he said she said" can you give us?

Hopefully we can pull some areas for advice out of this.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF…

When she slept over on Tuesday night, when her grandson was here, and I listened to her talk for a while, one of the things that she said was that she still is having a hard time getting past that “incident“ that happened early last September.  She says she still having a hard time trusting me.

She brings that occasion up every time we have broken up, including this time.

Overall, we probably spoke for a few hours, and it seemed very positive and reinforcing. I used a lot of positive reinforcement, I talked a lot about how the effects of trauma may be getting in the way, especially for me… Etc. We talked about trust, which is what we talked about a few weeks ago when she split the last time. It seemed to be a productive conversation, and we seemed to go to sleep fairly at peace, as if things were heading in a good direction, or so it seemed.  I don’t remember if we made any declarations that we were still going to move forward, but that was the impression I certainly got.

Then, we had a nice morning right after that, made the kids breakfast, then she sped off to work fairly happy.

On Thursday morning, we went for a walk with my kid, and my kid took off for about a half an hour and we pretty much only talked about her work and her financial situation.

I was giving her some feedback, although somewhat vague, when she was talking about her retirement situation… I did express a wish that she might be able to get more out of her retirement situation than she may be. I wonder if she felt that was condescending somehow… That’s the only thing that was even discussed that may have been interpreted as negative.

Other than that, when she left, she said it was a lovely walk, told me to have a good band practice that night, and said we would talk soon. There was nothing negative expressed at our parting…. She seemed like she was in a good space.

I texted her the next morning, wished her good morning, and mentioned I was at the same restaurant as the day before, and her only response was “enjoy“, which seemed rather dismissive.

Could me not texting her again yesterday, or calling her yesterday, be perceived as me not following up and pursuing the reconciliation?  I’ve mentioned before that she constantly says she expects the man to be the one that fights for the relationship. Wouldn’t surprise me if she is expecting me to fight harder than she thinks I am. I think she has elements of narcissism thrown in there, as well, if I can be annoying enough to say that.

What do you think might be going on with this girl? Maybe that Tuesday night late not talk is still reverberating and making her feel lack of trust and interest in moving forward?

I can assure you, when we were doing well, we would have already had plans for her to come over on a weekend like this when she has several evenings off in a row. This seems like another statement.

I forgot some of the he said she said…

She started her talk by saying that she had been thinking prior to our last stretch of silence, which was the prior week, that she had been struggling going back-and-forth with confusion about the relationship.

She said it was coming from the late night talk we had had a few weeks earlier, and which I was telling her that I needed to be honest about her Nasty break up texts from all the other occasions. I think I’ve already told you all about that. She said that my insistence for her to look at those texts as being negative and hostile invalidates all of her reasoning as to why she was breaking up each time.

She said she doesn’t trust me, and fears that the relationship is just going to be going up and down, with me pushing her away by invalidating her feelings during splits, and arguing with her about politics, and then we always get back together and it’s great for a while, until she says she fears it’s me that pushes her away.

There have definitely been times where I think that she has a point, and I have ruffled her feathers a bit, maybe to test her loyalty… But I don’t really think I have been doing that for quite a while. Certainly since I’ve been learning more about BPD.

Yes, we did talk about politics about a month ago, but I thought it was a gentle conversation, and it didn’t seem to ruffle her feathers at all, and I mentioned this time around that I do like to talk about politics, but I would just prefer to be able to talk about it without it getting heated. I said that to her last Tuesday night.

Anyway, I did use my own description of my own trauma affects, and how they sometimes distort my thinking, And cause some black and white splitting… And I was saying that to hopefully open up some channels of thought for her that maybe that’s what was happening with her as well. I didn’t accuse her of anything, that’s for sure. I may have implied that her trauma background may be interfering with her levels of trust. I think she knows that.  I am not sure how much this whole conversation, in terms of trauma, has much to do with what is happening right now, but I can’t really tell.

We talked about specific events that happened, like me throwing her out at 3 AM, and me getting a dog for my 13-year-old daughter and partnering with my ex-wife to help that happen, which she feels I should’ve talked with her about and not partnered with my ex-wife. I may have explained that one before, but she felt very slighted by that.

One element of contention during our talk on Tuesday was the dog. Typically, she says that no one that she talks to about any of these circumstances doesn’t agree exactly with what she is saying… it was narcissistic for me to throw her out of the house that night, and no one should be partnering to get a dog for their daughter with their ex-wife.

I felt I needed to be honest with her, and I told her that nobody that I talked with said that it was anybody’s business except for my ex-wife and me whether we got a dog for my daughter or not. Even my therapist said it’s not my girlfriends business what my ex-wife and I agree on regarding getting a dog for my daughter.

I have said to her several times that I regret not speaking to her about it before it happened, but it literally happened within several hours. My ex-wife called me and told me that someone had a dog that needed to be rehomed, and that they were a bunch of people thinking about it, so we had to act fast, and the dog was adorable, so we went over there that night and brought him home.  I did not talk to my girlfriend before going over there, so she feels hugely slighted about that.

The dog has been a fabulous addition to our family, and my girlfriend knows this, but still sees that dog is a product of a deal that I struck with my ex-wife to get him, because I would have never been able to get a dog on my own.  my ex-wife said if there were any vet bills that she would contribute to them. That’s really the only way I could’ve taken on a dog.  I think my girlfriend feels that I am to allegiant to my ex-wife, and has said numerous times that she thinks I will hop skip and jump anytime my ex-wife says anything. Thankfully, my girlfriend hasn’t really said that recently, because I believe it’s not true. My ex-wife and I do well together as friends, and as partners with our daughter. That’s pretty much it. Many of our earlier splits involved her lack of trust regarding my ex-wife.

There is another area that we talked about last Tuesday that has come up before, but not as much recently… She doesn’t trust what I say to other people regarding our relationship. She knows I confide in a bunch of people, but she thinks that I say things that are untrue, and things that are skewed by my own bias.  She said she believes it’s important for me to have one or two friends that I talk to about this stuff, but she doesn’t like when I talk to lots of people about it, and specifically my ex-wife.

There have been times in the past where I have told my ex-wife a lot of the details about how my girlfriend has broken up with me, and the nasty things that she has said, and I have felt at least some confidence that my ex-wife handles it appropriately, given that she’s a fairly good person, and she usually has a good perspective on things.

My girlfriend was completely livid when she learned I was talking to my ex-wife about the situation, and she maybe right.  My girlfriend fears that there may be people that I talk to about this stuff that we use the information to come back and cause harm in someway in the future… She is a bit paranoid in that regard, because of past experiences… I assure her that I trust the people that I talk to 1,000,000%, and I believe that that would never happen. She’s not so convinced.

  I haven’t really talked with my ex-wife much about my girlfriend recently, partly because I have this community I can use to vent, and also because I have a personal therapist that I talk to about it, so I have felt much less need. I think my girlfriend trusts this as being true, so it wasn’t a central theme of our last couple of late night talks. I was reassuring that I wasn’t talking to people nearly as much, and she seemed to believe it.

I can’t really think of anything else that we spoke about that night other than the former troubling events, her feeling like I was invalidating her feelings, and trust. That was pretty much it.

So… Do you think it would be proactive to just reach out today and say hi? She’s working all day, so she’ll be busy…

It’s very possible she’s just stressed out from work, and she has been more so than usual over the last month… That could be pushing her to just want to avoid thinking about our situation.

In the past, it was almost expected that I would reach out and say hi during the day. That was just a protocol.

What to do… What to do…?  My lack of correspondence will be significantly noticed.

Update…

OK, so there is some good news… She texted me just now. It’s not warm and fuzzy, but she at least reached out… It just read:

Her:  Hello..hope you are well ..and not swept  away  in the rain yesterday..at work sucks..slow moving day despite business. Enjoy your day.

Me:  I sent a funny meme with the scene of palm trees being whipped sideways by wind and rain, and I wrote “only thing missing are the palm trees!“

Her:  yup.

Me:  where are you working today?

Her: at the main ER.

Me:  sent a meme of a pile of blueberries and I said, “Would you eat a quart of blueberries? I'm going to put on my rubber boots and go brave the wet and pick some.”

Her: I wouldn’t eat a quart, but I hope you have a good pick.

End

What do you think?

I agree with what you guys have been saying… She’s just confused. I’m playing it fairly loosely right now, which you guys have suggested. Does this exchange give you any insights as to where to go with it?

Would it be too forceful to ask her if she wants to get a bite to eat at a new farm restaurant later today when she’s done with work?

The alternative is to invite her out for fireworks on Monday, like I botched for last week…

Thoughts?

I'd like to pivot the discussion a bit.

From everything I read, it sounds like your discussions (at least your part of them) is more "chill"...less "reactive".  Fair assessment?

I think if you can keep that going and add in a healthy dose of boundaries, you have the makings of a solid relationship foundation.  Dysfunction might give way to "eccentric".

How does that sound?

 Article about boundaries (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries)

Can you read the article a few times, then perhaps try to apply it to some of your last posts.

Like this  "Based on the boundaries article I should have talked about X and I should not have talked about Y"

Maybe some reasoning behind that based on what you have read.

Standing by on this end!  Keep up the good work.

Best,

FF

work to get centered.

i say this gently, and to help: you are all over the place.

these relationships require a lot of patience, and a lot of strength.

the circumstance itself requires little more than playing it cool.


your relationship is not in this place right now. she, herself, is not in this place.

youve got to read her. her indifference to your texts is not a sign to do more. its not a sign that she is losing interest in you as a person. its not a sign that she is stewing.

its a sign to pull it back. its a sign that she isnt interested in it as an approach. no more, no less.

you arent going to reconcile or rebuild your relationship with pleasant text exchanges. your relationship isnt going to (and shouldnt) go from 0-60 via pleasant text exchanges.


do you notice that when you get anxious, you do two things:

1. decide that theres something more you need to do
2. get hurt and angry - decide maybe she/the relationship just arent worth it (this is splitting at a basic level)

thats not a judgment. when im anxious, im a mess. i do all of the same things.

the point is to recognize it and pay attention to it in real time. to learn constructive responses to it. to pull from new tools you incorporate into your toolbelt.

can you see this? do you see it differently?


1. above all, learn to find your emotional center and act (or not) from it. learn to self soothe (and by that, i dont mean with an absence of support). realize that uncomfortable feelings are not always something we need to act on, but learn constructive ways to cope with.

2. see the relationship and the circumstances for what they are. read her. if something isnt working, do less of it. recalibrate your expectations realistically.

3. place less emphasis and significance on text exchanges, and more on planning fun, carefree get togethers.

4. be cool. be confident. you have every reason to - things are going great.

make sense?

Hi all…

I did OK last night, after having a day of feeling pretty crappy and kind of depressed.

I tried to reach outside my comfort zone and found things to do to keep busy, and played music most of the night, which was very cathartic.

So, I felt like I needed to text her last night to get a idea as to whether or not she was still thinking of coming over after work today… So I sent her a brief text, likely so she doesn’t think what she did last time, and that I didn’t text her to check in about our plans for tomorrow. She would be getting up in the morning and having to plan what to bring with her, so I thought it was relevant to reach out.

After receiving the text, she called me out of the blue, which was nice. She sounded like she was in a good space… All nice. Then we decide on a plan that she’ll come over tomorrow/today after work, and she’ll go for a run while I ride my bike with her, or walk somewhere, simultaneously. She seemed very up for that idea.

I also was very enthusiastic about her coming to fireworks tomorrow, and she seemed to like the idea.

All good. Except. I encouraged her to call me on her way to work this morning, since she has a 40 minute drive, and at the end of the call she said, “I’ll call you on my way to work tomorrow“.

No surprise. No call. Of course, I encouraged it to be open ended and said “if you feel like calling me on your ride to work tomorrow…“

I can’t help but feel that this has been happening more and more, and I don’t quite get it. In my world, if you tell someone you’re going to call them, you pretty much do it. I also can’t help feeling that there is a bit of a message in this… Which is… “I’m still confused about how I feel, so this is my message to you to keep you a little bit at arm’s length, so you don’t think things are back the way they were before.”  I find that a little bit annoying. On the other hand, she just may not of felt like talking, but that’s fairly unusual for her. Until recently, she never didn’t call when she said she would.

This will bother me this morning, hopefully only a little bit, because it makes me feel that I’m having a hard time counting what she says is what she’ll do.  I could be thinking, which I am, that I will see her later on today, and that it is no big deal. Maybe she was just tired and cranky. She has every right to be.

Who knows, though…  maybe there is a chance she’s going to change her plan for after her work tonight?  It’s possible she woke up this morning and started to think about the plan, which seems to imply she’ll be staying over tonight and sleeping here, although that wasn’t specifically agreed-upon, but inferred. I don’t even know if or how to bring it up with her. I know if I tell her, “I want you to do only what you want to do.  if you are not comfortable staying over, I want you to be comfortable and do what you need to do. I’ll be fine.“ I don’t think she likes it when I say stuff like that, but I don’t really know.  Part of me doesn’t want her to stay over if she’s not really psyched about doing it. Am I over analyzing?

At least I feel much more positive than I did yesterday. Amazing how small gestures can bring me up, and little avoidances can pull me even further down.

That brings me to the thought of what you guys were asking yesterday… About how I ground myself or center myself.  I often know what I could do to feel better, but I often feel too depressed and unmotivated to do it. I know if I play music, or exercise, or do something invigorating, I feel better. Instead, I end up doing self-destructive things, and it feels like a form of self punishment. I will eat something that is great in the moment, but I know will make me feel like crap later, or I will drink a ton of coffee, knowing that I will have two or three hours of awesome buzzing, but because I have a profound caffeine intolerance/allergy that will make me feel like PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) for the next day and a half, but I still do it.  I have a caffeine and sugar addiction… Which is hugely self-destructive.

Sometimes, when I do these things, I almost envision myself pushing a knife into my gut, almost as if I do these things to punish myself. Many people, and including my lady friend, say that if drinking coffee and eating ice cream is my self punishment of choice, then it could be a lot worse.

However, I often get so sick afterwards, and I think I’m driving myself towards diabetes, since my numbers have been chronically high over the last 10 years, and I feel like my body is probably so filled with inflammation that it can’t be good for my overall health.  Both my therapist and my doctor pretty much just say, “stop doing these things“. Not hugely helpful.

So, I watch video after video about trauma and borderlines and narcissism, and my therapist, one of about six I have had over the last 30 years, never seem to be able to budge some of the self-destructive tendencies that I have, and what they believe is a negative thinking.

Mind you, I am much better off today than I was a handful of years ago, so I often look at the positives, as much as the negatives. As for my lady friend, at least in the last month, there have been a lot of negatives, hence, my long winded posts on here… :-)

There was even the thought yesterday that maybe I should just end this relationship, or put it on a semi permanent hold, because I felt so unhealthy, both physically and mentally, yesterday, that I thought maybe it’s best if I start thinking about myself more and kicking myself into gear.

I always do better with the hope that maybe there is someone out there that I can connect with in a healthy way, and I always seem to do worse when my current situation goes downhill.  I guess when my current situation is good, it’s really good, and I feel great, but when it’s bad, I get pulled down with it, which I don’t think it’s sustainable much longer.

As I may have said at some point previously, I tend to identify my happiness with how my relationship status is, and that’s not sustainable either, but I’ve been that way since I was a small child and had my first crush on a third grader, who barely knew I existed. And then she got struck by a car out on the street in front of her house. At the risk of being graphic, we heard the screech of tires, and after a few minutes we went down and saw the aftermath of her contorted bicycle, and a large pool of blood running into the drain. She survived without major catastrophe, but it still brings back fairly traumatic thoughts just thinking about it… I have zero idea why I just told that story, by the way…

So..here is my take on the "non call" after you encouraged the possibility.

I take it as a signal that she has a busy life/lots to think about.  Perhaps..Perhaps I take it as "enough chasing".

Why not enjoy the fireworks with her and it appears there are other plans for bike ride/run.

Enjoy those..stay in the moment, don't worry about the future.

I would encourage you to let her make plans for the "next time".  Maybe you let her chase you for a bit.

How would you say that to her? 

Best,

FF

I am trying to do all those things, but I keep getting a little “signals“ that she’s trying to keep me at arms length.

So, she texts me out of the blue from work yesterday just to say hi… Last night I text to check in and to solidify plans, and she seems great. She said she’ll call me on the way to work, at my suggestion. She doesn’t.

This morning, late in the morning, I sent her a good morning meme, and she doesn’t reply. I can see by messenger notifications that she has been checking Facebook. At work. But she Doesn’t have it in her to answer my good morning meme?

That says to me that she is once again ambivalent, perhaps about the plans that we made for her to come over today. Yes, I’m probably reading way more into it, but why do I want to keep doing this to myself?

I have a friend that continuously tells me I shouldn’t be letting her walk on me like this. Of course, I could be creating a lot of this in my own head, so my plan is to wait until she’s nearly done with work and then check in with her again (which is what I caught wrath about nearly a month and a half ago for not doing under completely similar circumstances).

Back then, I figured if she wasn’t getting back to me, there must have been a reason, and I was right. She was struggling. She’s probably struggling again today for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with me. Not getting back to me today seems to be some sort of sign, or at least could be.  Her being on Facebook tells me it’s not a lack of time or effort.

Oh, as far as making plans go… She doesn’t really make plans. She has never made a plan since I have known her, other than to meet her friends for dinner or wine. Zero else. That’s her life. Work, or out with friends for dinner and wine.

Every single event, outing, trip, get together, other than for her to just come over to my house… Has been completely my arrangement.

I will ask her what she wants to do, and if she has any idea, and her response… Every. Single. Time. Is that she doesn’t care and she’ll do whatever I arrange.

I suspect that is because she is so far inside of her own head that she doesn’t want to think about stuff outside of that. She is more reactive, and less planning or strategizing.  I get it, I get like that sometimes too. Still, I’m sick of it.

One of my good friends, who has been dealing with a similar situation, thanks that I should just delicately tell her that it hurts my feelings when she tells me that she’s going to do something, and then she doesn’t.

He doesn’t think it’s practical for me to try to understand that confronting her, given where her headspace is, will likely do zero good, other than make her defensive and more likely to split.

He sees this with the girl he has been dating, as well, and he’s just not willing to tolerate it anymore. I’m almost at that point, as well.

Look...if you are done with her.  Then be done with this.

I don't think you are done with her.  I do think this new way of "doing" relationships is very uncomfortable for you.

I think others have said this, maybe I did as well.  Change is hard.  It's going to feel "weird".  You are going to "want to be done with it" so you can get back to the old feelings..."normal".

I'm not saying there is NEVER going to be a time when you can share "hurt feelings" with her.  

I'm also not saying that I agree or disagree that your feelings "should be hurt" by this..or they shouldn't.  (hint..I'm leaning more towards "toughening you up"...but I really haven't thought that through much..so hold that "lightly").

I will say this...FOR SURE.  

I can't imagine you trying to convey "hurt feelings" to her right now (or in the next month)..."going well".

Your best play is to live your life.  Let her call...or not call.  You move right on along with your life..and ENJOYING your life.  When she chooses to be part of it..that's a bonus.

When she chooses (or life just happens) and she can't be part of it..she can't call..she can't (fill in the blank)...you just move right on along and live your life.

Best,

FF

So..is there a possibility...even the possibility that she hasn't made plans, because you haven't given space for her to do so.

What if you made plans for her to come by your house and pick you up in her car, next Friday at 6pm.  You hop in the car and announce you are looking forward to spending time with her..whatever she decides to do.

See how you "halfway" filled it in? 

Best,

FF

I wonder how it would go if you made a conscious decision to "ignore" the signals for a month. 

Every time you brain starts to ruminate on a "signal"...I want you to say outloud  "NOPE...not going there."  (and then do something else)

What would you do with all that brainspace?

Best,

FF

No… There’s no chance that I haven’t given her space to do that. In fact, I have a hard time making plans, since I often can’t think that far ahead, and she gets irritated and unsettled if there’s not something already planned, or if I can’t come up with a plan.  She expects her man to make all the plans. It’s a copout, but it is what it is. Half the time, she doesn’t really wanna do anything outside the box, except for go to the restaurant and drink wine with her friends. That’s all she really has in mind to do almost ever.

I’ve taken her to theater, And concerts… And I’ve taken her on weekend outings, and we walk through various towns regularly… She wouldn’t be doing those things on her own, I doubt. Neither would her friends.  She will barely go to a new restaurant, because she only likes the restaurants that she’s already been to… Unless it’s for the exact food she likes. She won’t think outside the box. I have a hard time getting her to do things outside the box. She’s fairly calculated.

I took her to Arizona last summer, and all I hear about it to this day is that we spent a lot of time in the beautiful town In which I was married 15 Years ago, even though it was her and my daughter that didn’t really wanna travel anywhere else, once we got to that town. This day I still hear her complain about it.  She thinks I was subconsciously pining to go there to revisit my former days with my ex, which couldn’t have been further from the truth.

I think if she came here and I said I was willing to do whatever she wanted to do, she would get agitated and not know how to deal with it.

Well, I guess this new way of seeing this relationship, as you are suggesting, doesn’t really feel like a real relationship, nor does it feel like a partnership. If this is what I should be expecting, and that’s what you are saying, I think I would be better off healing from this and trying to look for someone that may be a better fit.

I don’t want to give up on this girl, but I don’t feel that I have any choice.  It’s either to continue going up and down like this, given that I want more for myself than a part time, sometimes In and sometimes out, girlfriend. I don’t think any sane person would want that. Well, unless they don’t really care whether they’re in a relationship or not, which I do.

She has said a bunch of times recently that she doesn’t really care that whether or not she’s in a relationship, and that she chooses to be in one because she wants to be, yet then she picks the crap out of things that I do that that she manufactures in her head, and the roller coaster continues to go up and down.  That’s no way for anyone to live, unless you really want to live that way, and I really don’t.

i had a gal break up with me once because i wasnt showing her enough fun. not taking her out to romance her. she was bored.

i suppose i figured shed let me know if she wanted to do something. im a homebody. im not super spontaneous.

people just differ in these ways. its a legitimate difference, and incompatibility if it arises to that point.

a lot of men get frustrated with a lack of interest (real or perceived) from someone they are pursuing. wringing ones hands of it is valid. alternatively, one can put more effort into making themselves more attractive to that person (and carefully understanding what that means to that person). a member here had a really flaky girlfriend and he was getting frustrated with it, thought about exiting the picture, decided hed try making himself more attractive to her.

im speaking kind of generally here; there are two issues really. i think your gal is interested in you, and that you need to focus on attracting her. the other is that she doesnt think of stuff to do or try to plan things with you, and you wish she did.

there are ways to voice that, and doing so is generally the best thing. there are ways to incentivize it, too. but theres no guarantee that person will change. had the girl i referred to been clearer (im sure, in her own way, she tried) about what she wanted me to do, id have definitely tried to give her that. i dont know if i would have met her expectations.

you have, what sounds like, kind of a boring girlfriend, in that way. that can be a deal breaker, or she could be the opposite of boring in lots of other ways that you love, or she makes up for it in other ways that you love. its all personal, and its all valid, really. but i wouldnt expect it to change dramatically. its like if you have a girlfriend who is majorly unfunny and you really want her to start telling jokes around you. 


i think a large part of it is remembering that the way we feel about what someone else is doing, or not doing, is not necessarily an accurate representation of how they feel or whats going on in their mind. its a very human tendency, though for some (myself included) more than others. its a form of projection. the difference is whether we can separate ourselves from our projections. when we are upset about something, its harder. but just being mindful helps.


think of it as getting signals that what you are doing is either too much too soon, or not the right approach. they arent a rejection of you as a person. its "this thing im doing (the texting, i think, being a good example) isnt connecting". confidence is really being able to see that for what it is, and let it roll off your back, as opposed to taking it as a slight (there are, of course, slights that you should not let roll off your back).

there have been a lot of points where you were thinking that this or that might be going on in her head. it just by and large hasnt seemed to be the case or reflected where shes at with it all. shes been pretty predictable, and in a way that has worked to your favor.

she has also met you half way, in lots of ways. she was the one that brought up the talk. she contacted you/called you.

men just arent often all that great at reading women. we tend to project our own tendencies onto them (they do so as well). where im sitting, its a lot easier for us to see that youre pretty much in the kings chair here.

Love your responses… Hard to make heads or tails out of a lot of it.

I don’t feel like I am in the King’s chair, so to speak. I feel like I am at the whim of this girl’s mental chaos. That doesn’t feel good to me, particularly when I have repeatedly experienced the good things that she offers, as well as the downsides.

This is the only time since I have known her that it has been strangely gray… Neither in or out. Previously, when she was out, she was out… but when she was in, she was in.  This is much different, and I don’t handle it well.

I feel that I have always been pretty good at entertaining her… Although, I don’t have a very colorful life. She doesn’t seem to need much, other than companionship and trust. She lacks the trust right now, for whatever reason she sees fit. I can’t seem to budge that.

I do see how my little breadcrumbs for her have been somewhat working, but then as soon as things seem to be leveling off, she just seems to back away again, which I do know probably has very little to do with me, personally. I do take it personally, though. Each and every time I feel sucker punched. As if I should know better than to be sucked back into believing that may be she will be back to the person that I know when things are going well. I feel like such a sucker for letting myself get sucked back into this time and time again.

Yep...you are.

This isn't a "yes or no" to chaos.  Really...you need to think of it as "more or less".

Once Removed nailed it with the expecting an introverted nonfunny chick to all of a sudden be a stand up comedian...(might have taken that a bit further than he intended..but you get the point)


Two big picture things I would like you to focus on.

 What it takes to be in one of these relationships (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship)

Read this a few times, even if you have read it before.

I'm also wondering if you can take a couple weeks off from "deciding".  It's really hard to put  my finger on.  "Deciding" might not be the best word..maybe "evaluating" is better.

Anyway...what if you stopped wondering about the relationship for a few weeks.  Seriously.  Put a "date" on the calendar for just you.  Commit to just enjoying the time you have with her AND enjoying the time without her (even if your alone time comes from her disappearing).

Then when your date comes..be deliberate about considering if this r/s is worth more or less of your time.  Serious..stay away from "in" and "out"...I hope you can find "nuance" and stay away from "dichotomous".

Best,

FF

Your desire for her to "do something" other than be a "consumer" in the relationship is completely valid.

Can we kick around some ideas for a few weeks?  I suspect this will be a baby steps thing..but not sure.

Best,

FF

Well guys, I think I should thank you for all of your help. But I believe it’s over.

We ended up getting together for a walk, because it was going to rain, and about half an hour into our walk she starts talking, and she basically says she doesn’t think she’ll ever be able to get past the things I have done to her and that she doesn’t trust me and doesn’t think she ever will, and she thinks that she can’t be with someone that she can’t trust.

She says she has tried and try to let go of “the things I did to her“ but she just can’t get them out of her head and they just reverberate around, and everything in her tells her that it’s not a healthy relationship and that she needs to leave.

She named one thing after the other that I allegedly failed to take any real responsibility for … I threw her out at 3 AM last September. Then I wasn’t man enough to call to see that she got home all right.   Then, the next morning I wrote that pretty embarrassing text to my friend telling him that I loved her when she was stable.  Then, I partnered with my ex-wife to get a dog and didn’t discuss it with her, which show disrespect for her.  She had every story wrapped up in her own narrative, and nothing I could say or said, ever since those things happened, has been able to rattle that narrative.

She doesn’t believe I respect her, and she may be right. How can I respect someone that can’t get out of their own way?  She seemed perfectly OK validating the nasty things that she said to me over and over again, because she said she believes they were true, at the time.  Ironically, this is the first time ever she has actually said that I should have known that she just said those things in anger, but that maybe I need to own some of them. I kind of wish she would have said that a few weeks ago… This is the first time ever she has told me that she said those things in anger.

Anyway… I didn’t say anything for the longest time tonight, but then for about the last half an hour it started to go back-and-forth and got pretty ugly on her part. Needless to say, I think she is just basically done and I don’t think she can get her way back. 

I encouraged her that people can get through stuff like this, and that the general consensus is that getting through difficult times can actually bring people closer and even increase intimacy, but she wasn’t buying it. She said it was too much and too late and that there was nothing that could ever be done that was likely going to make her be able to trust me in a meaningful way, and in a way that would prevent her from going back-and-forth like she’s been going for the last 10 months.  She just said that no decent person whatever do what I did to her.

I told her over and over that I believed that we could get through these things, and she pretty much just told me that she says I’m good to talk but not good at action, even though I think I’ve made so much progress over the last 10 months from where I was before. Even she agrees with that, but then she still can’t get past the trust issue. She looked me right in the eye and said I don’t trust you and I don’t think I ever will.

That’s pretty much it. Don’t know what more to say.

How many times has she changed her mind since you have known her?

Best,

FF

I really don’t think so this time. She seemed pretty clear in her resolve that she had to end things. If you listened to everything she said, from an outsiders perspective, you would think that everything that she says makes perfect sense, and she has every reason to want to leave this situation, because it is unhealthy.  I could go on and on. She was very convincing, if you weren’t there to see the stories unfold with your own eyes.

There’s two sides to every story, though, and I believe she has self created almost every obstacle, minus the two or three things that were my fatal flaws, supposedly, and she had used these narratives to break up each and every time.

I know that she is likely borderline, but she’s really making me wonder whether I am sane, and whether these things that I did to her were truly enough to make a stable person feel that I am untrustworthy and then break up with me.

She went on and on how each time she broke up with me was valid, and it was because of what I did, and how I self-destructed the relationship.

It’s going to be awhile before I unravel all of this in my brain. First, I have to figure out whether what she is saying is true. Did I self destruct the relationship? I don’t really think I did, but she does.

You imply that you think that she will be back. Would you elaborate a bit on that?  It’s hard to imagine. She was pretty convincing and fairly lucid. It’s clear that she believes her own narrative, and her narrative seems pretty well concocted.

How many times has she said it's over?  Is this the first?

Please don't "interpret"..just give me a number based on the words she used.

Best,

FF

I would say it has been, on average, about once every month and a half for the last year and a half. Pretty much each and every time she has sent me an angry and hostile text telling me she will never reconcile with me again.

This time seemed different, FF. She was very calm and thoughtful. Anyone that didn’t know the scenario like I did would completely buy into her narrative.  I am almost having a hard time believing my own memory. It’s making me wonder if I really did screw up and I drove her away.

I’m pretty heartbroken and confused.

She even said that she liked the effort I had been putting in over the last few weeks, like we had been talking about on here. She said she loved the sense of family that I offered, and she loved my daughter, which was making it so hard for her to make this decision earlier and stick with it.

She said she was coming back time and time again because she loved me and wanted to make it work, but she felt I kept doing things that pushed her way, and especially that she couldn’t trust me because of me “throwing her out at 3 AM, last September, and then writing to a good friend that I “loved her when she was stable“ and “how nobody I know can’t understand why I would get back together with her under such circumstances“. She saw that text and was horrified.

It was pretty much these two things that were at the head of her reasoning. She says she just can’t trust me, and she can’t be with someone who she believes thinks one thing to her face and something else behind her back.  She does have a point. I do completely that.

I understand what she’s saying. She says she needs to completely trust whoever she is with, and that I violated that trust by throwing her out and writing what she saw was the nasty text to my friend, and now she says she doesn’t trust being around anyone I know because she fears that I have said something in a biased way that could make her feel shamed. She went on and on. It’s nothing really new, she just says she doesn’t think she’ll ever get past it and it will continue to confuse her forever, therefore she hast to leave. Part of me gets it, and part of me wonders if it may not be the smartest thing that she could do for herself. She needs to heal, and maybe someday she’ll see that she has self-destructed in so many ways.

In a nutshell, these were the break up problems:

- didn’t do enough to purge my house of things from my ex-wife. She insisted that I was hung up on her, and I’m still dealing with unresolved feelings.  That was a recurring theme.  That was really the source of probably the first two or three break ups.

- after that, break ups were mostly center around me throwing her out at 3 AM, even though I practically begged her not to leave that night, and stood in front of her car door to try to talk her out of it. She doesn’t care about that. She says the fact that I dared to say something like that to somebody I love, particularly when I should have known that her trauma background would trigger her sense of abandonment. 

I have tried time and time again to explain that the events leading up to that night triggered my own sense of abandonment, and I felt that the only choice I had that night was to ask her to leave, or I was literally going to have a mental breakdown.  She said tonight that she has never heard what she thought was a valid excuse for me asking her to leave that night.

I don’t think she will ever get over the text that I sent to my friend that accidentally got to her. It drew attention to my own instability almost as much as it did her own, but she will never trust me again, I don’t think. Even though I’ve come such a long way over the last 10 months to get better at managing my own demons, as well as hers.

I don’t feel a lot of hope left here, FF. She looked me in the eye and told me she didn’t think she could ever trust me the way she need to do to be moving forward, and that she was leaving. That was it.

she may very well change her mind.

id say, to some extent, its in your hands as to whether or not to take her at face value, and determine if this is overcomeable, and if so how, or if the instability of the relationship itself is something to take at face value.


people with bpd traits have a great, inherent difficulty when it comes to trust. even when relationship security is ultimately there. it sounds like asking her to leave really stuck with her and felt like a huge betrayal. whether thats reasonable or not, it is very hard for someone with bpd traits to get past what they feel is a big betrayal. my relationship had one or two of its own. we never recovered, even though we lasted another year, year and a half.

so, to me, whether shes done or not is only part of the question here. she may be done. or she may decide otherwise. or she may decide otherwise and the same thing will happen again.

its a tough call. you may have to be the one to make it.

I don’t really know if I have a call to make.

Typically, during these many break ups, I can usually pick up on some sort of in between the lines signal that gave me the indication that may be all was not what it appeared… I didn’t get that signal this time around. She was pretty conclusive, pretty calculated, and seemingly determined.  She didn’t give an inch. She was done. Anytime I even tried to reason with her, she got hostile and nasty. It’s because of my behavior that she has broken up all of these times, and her testament to loving me was trying harder and getting back together each and every time.  No more, in her mind.  She said it was painfully hard, considering how much she loves me, loves my daughter, and how well her grandkids get along with my daughter… She said those are all the reasons she kept coming back, but she can’t do it anymore.

I don’t really know what more I could do that I haven’t done many many times. If you say it’s really my call, it almost feels that the only call that I have is the power to just call it a day. What other call can I make?

I certainly don’t feel that anything that has happened between her and I is not overcome-able.  But I am not her, and I can’t feel what she feels. 

I made the mistake of using the language of her nasty break up texts as an example of how I have been able to overcome hurtful things and worked hard to move forward. I don’t think she was too impressed with that comparison. She seems to think she had every valid reason to write nasty things to me.

i dont mean to give you false hope. you know her best.

and i think you should treat her words at face value.

i mean to suggest that in the event she changes her mind, changes her mind and then changes it again, sends what seem like mixed signals, or for that matter blows up at you some more and says hurtful things, people with bpd traits can be as confused as us if not more, can swing, and can, frankly, be kind of self centered about it and do some insensitive or hurtful things. it would be up to you to think beyond that, long term.

it sucks right now man, im sorry. it may be especially hard, but id go radio silent (and by that i dont mean silent treatment, i mean the ball is very much in her court here). she kinda threw the kitchen sink. let her think about it. it wont be the last conversation she wants to have.

lastly, that she made it about blame hurts, and its going to hurt. my ex did the same thing, and i spent a long time with my confidence shot, feeling not good enough. the blame is about, and coming from her own hurt. try, as hard as that may be, to understand that yes - she really does have strong feelings about these things and yes - shes telling you about times in the relationship that, from her perspective, contributed to its break down - a relationship is a complex series of interactions that isnt, typically, about blame. its just that the conflict (for either one of you personally, or between both of you) couldnt be resolved. i know thats of cold comfort right now; my point is that things are far more complicated than her narrative or that you drove her away.

often times, throughout the relationship, theres a lot going on with our loved ones, boiling under the surface, that we arent privy to, and then sometimes it boils up. thats what this was. hang in there. we are here.

Thank you, For all of the support and encouragement.

All the things that she has rounded up that “I did to her” are valid to her, but to me, it seems like she has almost self created each and every one.

My supposed infraction, that has been at the center of most of the break ups since last September, was likely the result of me snapping, from a years worth of her splitting, and blaming and shaming who I am, and her projecting her negative energy and needs into the relationship.

I tried everything I could to constantly make her feel valued, and wanted, and appreciated. It seems like she couldn’t hear it, and she continuously took little things and made them into great big problems.

For me, it was likely trauma bonding. For her, she knew she had a good thing. She knew I was a good person and loved her. What she has done with that over the last two years, I am sure, is the result of her trauma, as is likely this final discard.

Yes, I think she’s been trying to end this for a long time, but I don’t think it’s because it has been unhealthy for her, which may be true in a greater sense, but because I don’t believe she feels capable, maybe even subconsciously, of sustaining a relationship with someone who is not as angry and hostile as she is.

Don’t get me wrong, I am angry and hostile, but I’m more of the quiet type. 

It’s completely possible that this is just the bottom part of one of her cycles, and eventually she’ll come out of it. I’m not convinced of that this time around, though. Her narratives of what I did to her are wound so tightly that I don’t think she’ll ever be able to see any other perspective other than I “did these things to her“. She can’t self evaluate her part in it, nor can she empathize what I may have been experiencing during those same interactions. She just can’t. Her only justification is that I did these things to her and she can’t trust me and doesn’t think she ever will, and therefore, she just can’t get past what I did to her.

There’s no winner in this situation, just two losers.  That’s just not OK, but I’ve spent two years trying to talk her down from the ledge, constantly. She’s got to be able to step down on her own, and I don’t see that happening this time around.

 What it takes to be in one of these relationships (https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship)

What did you think of this article? 

What attributes do they describe in this article as "being needed" by you (or someone that wants to stick it out in one of these r/s) to be "successful?

Yes..there is a point to this that will HELP YOU IMMENSELY, even given your current outlook on things.

Best,

FF

Thank you, I have read that before and just reread it. I do get all those things, and to tell you the truth, I think over the last six months, I have done quite well in almost all of these areas.

I think my biggest faux pas was to bring up my own hurt twice in the last few conversations late at night.

Other than that, I have concentrated on fun, being very positive, and the goofy person that I usually am when things are going well.

I am not sure what your point is in bringing that article up, because if she is not willing Or able to get through things that of happened almost a year ago, even though she says she sees that I have tried really hard, but on the other hand says I still invalidate her experiences, then I really don’t know what more I can possibly do.

Even my telling her that her nasty texts were very hurtful to me seems to bring her to the thought that she has been invalidated and that her feelings aren’t real.

With all of this being said, guys, what hub could I possibly have at this point?  I get the impression that she feels she is totally spent and done, and for her own survival, I think she knows she needs to leave. I don’t know how else to interpret that, or what else I could possibly do, despite the strength I have shown to her over the last six months.

Don’t know where to go with that.

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that this is just another repeat of her cycle, and that maybe she would resurface within a while… What in the world would I even do at this point? The last words that she said to me was that she would never trust me again, and that maybe with someone else she could.

The look on her face when she looked at me the last time when she got in her car May have been a bit of a sign. It was one of complete sadness and despair, almost as if her eyes were telling me that she doesn’t want to do this, but she thinks she has to.

Back to the hypothetical… What could I possibly do at this point other than let her go and see if she somehow springs back with a sign of some sort in the future?

Plus, even if she was at some point in the future interested in opening up dialogue, what’s the point if she is just going to continue to crash like this? I get it. It’s a mental condition. But I have to protect my own sanity, as well. That makes this whole scenario seem almost insurmountable. I love this girl deeply, but I can’t keep thinking that every time she splits like this that it’s just her mental illness. I can’t keep hurting myself like this. It almost seems self abusive.

Maybe I do know where the split is coming from. She was finding her way back, and I made a fatal mistake of pointing out how her behavior with her constantly breaking up and nasty texts were hurtful and self-destructive. I conveyed that with clarity and with certainty. I was being honest with her, but gentle and kind as I said it, so in most scenarios it would be only taken as a way to connect, reflect and move forward. I don’t think she was capable of seeing it as anything other than rejection or criticism. It wasn’t meant or conveyed that way, at all, I thought I tried to convey it in a manner that was meant to heal, not criticize.

Nevertheless, I think the damage was done, and perhaps this break up is a direct result of that. She brought those conversations up several times as one of the founding principles of her feeling that I was invalidating all of her past hurts. Someone whose brain works differently Would not likely see the things I have said to her recently in a way that would be damaging like this, but this isn’t a normal situation, clearly.

Is there any way to navigate through this mess, or is it just too broken? She says it’s just too broken. She said repeatedly there are some things that you just can’t come back from, things that I did to her have made her feel that way. She just can’t get past it. You could see anger and hurt buildup in the whole time she was talking about the time I suggested she leave at 3 AM, and then wrote those terrible things to my friend that she saw.

Is there really any way out of this loophole?

Hey...I wasn't asking you to evaluate your past performance.  I'm asking what attributes are needed to be "successful"...?

Why are those attributes listed out like that?

Best,

FF

im not sure this was a fatal mistake.

probably the most important thing was that you not beg, or chase, or plead. strength and dignity and calm were essential.

when my ex ended it, i made the case for our relationship - that we could be better - but i didnt plead; same as you did. that will matter to you throughout this process and beyond, no matter what happens.


the path through healing from a breakup actually looks, more or less, the same as it does as if you were trying to get her back.

1. i would not contact her for now, in any way. let things marinate.
2. you get back to the upbeat, confident guy that she fell for in the first place
3. you explore what exactly it is that broke the relationship down over time

the only difference with number three is that you either use it to inform your healing, or to determine whether the relationship would be possible to reconcile, and how.

the cards you have to play are, to be sure, very limited. but nothing looks more attractive to a woman, or catches her off guard, more than a man that can accept a breakup, not happily, but knowing at the end of the day (if not many days), that hes going to be okay. she will feel badly about how the conversation went. she will likely want to revisit it, and conclude it on a better note. whether her mind changes is impossible to say, but, especially if you show strength (i think you spent the last week or two planting those seeds), she will likely go through doubts.

OK. I see what you are saying. However, I think I’ve gotten tremendously better and have done almost all of these things, and most of them I have done quite well. Especially in the last few months.  As I’ve said to her a million times, as much as I would like to, I can’t change what I did back then, I can only learn from it and try to prevent it from happening again, which I think I’ve been pretty successful doing.  It hasn’t been consistently helpful for her to hear me say that.

I think I drew my boundaries with her as of late, and she is now in a split, if that’s what it is. For all I know, she is thinking clearly, and just doesn’t want to continue.  But to me, in a normal relationship, who would break up with someone because they don’t emotionally trust that there partner is going to do something hurtful? She said multiple times that she was afraid I was going to do something like kick her out again, or start a stupid argument to push her away… She says she can’t do that anymore.

If I love someone as much as I believe she loves me, I would never let them go. I would continuously try to work harder and understand more. I know she has tried to do that, but I don’t think she believes I have.  Even last night, I stood in front of her and said “I’m right here… In front of you. I haven’t gone anywhere. I’m right here“. That seemed to offer little comfort, and almost more annoyance, since she basically said that me sticking around was because I felt guilty about my own behavior toward her, and the implication that I was sticking around for a more noble cause seemed insulting to her.

So, even if I do know all of these things that are necessary to be in a relationship, I have to now look into this situation and try to make heads or tails of it. Maybe it’s a typical split. Maybe she’ll come back around. Maybe she won’t.

OF… thanks for the input.  Always helpful.

I have no choice but to acknowledge the 1-3 that you point out. 

I have no doubt she is hurting right now. I do think she feels she did the right thing, and I don’t think she’ll be looking back anytime soon with any kind of real self reflection. I don’t think she has that capacity. I think me even saying that kind of validates what she was saying yesterday about her not believing that I respect her.   She gave me a couple of valid examples of that, and a few things that we just invented.

So, I have no choice but to put 1 foot in front the other and move on, with or without her, and I think it’s really in her hands. Of course, I could reach out with a text at some point after things have settled down, but at what cost? More pain and suffering for both of us?

She made it a point yesterday of clarifying that she was with her ex-husband for 11 years and never felt the same kind of mistrust for him, until he did things that earned that mistrust.  She clearly states that she believes I earned her mistrust, and there are things that she just can’t come back from, even though she has tried really hard, which she has. Very hard.

She is so smart and clear in her defense of her own narratives, that it was almost hard to try to defend myself, so in many ways, I really did very little defending, and a very small amount of encouragement. I think I knew what I had to do.  I listened for about the first 20 minutes, I sent a few things of encouragement, and then I knew I had to let it go, although I didn’t want to. I did argue with her a bit, I even told her and encouraged her to consider mental health counseling, since it might be a valuable way for her to be able to understand her pain and confusion, and I said that as a Hail Mary, and said that it has been hugely helpful to me as well, it is a device to help us learn about why we feel the pain that we do. I suspect that was a huge mistake, as well, but that was right near the end of her departure.

Yep...

Show her that the breakup is sad...but not devastating.  I wish I had a word a bit less that "sad".  You certainly do NOT want to let her see "distraught".

Best,

FF

This is a critical point...I would certainly feel better actually reading you talking about an attribute or two that you will be focusing on and discussing why that one is particularly important.

Best,

FF

Well, characteristically, she has sent me a nasty text may be about a week afterward, telling me all the same things she did yesterday, and telling me goodbye for good, and wished me well… For closure. It happen every time.

I would plead back-and-forth with her for quite a few texts, until finally I would suggest we got together to talk about things, and she would agree.

I am not anticipating her to agree to do that anytime soon.

Maybe it has been my lack of pleadings in these last few exchanges that has made a difference, because there is a bit of power struggle inherent in these encounters, and I think by not pleading with her, she’s not feeling she has the upper hand.

Who really knows.

As I think of all these things… I think about the notion of a power struggle.

I think to her, she wants to continuously engage in power struggles. Even last night, in the few occasions that I tried to validate anything or defend myself, I could see she was right at home starting to argue and get angry, almost as a go to strategy.

I have been infinitely better at not engaging these power struggles, or at least keeping them to a minimum, and diverting the negative energy into something more positive. I’m not sure I did that hugely well last night, But I certainly didn’t suck at it, but there was nowhere really for me to go with the conversation, since she was so definitive and decisive.  She’s never really been that Way in such encounters.

The topic of Alfa/beta came out a few months ago, I think after our month long break up in April… I told her that I could never be a beta to anyone. I I told her that I could likely do fairly well as dual alpha, but I would never be able to be someone’s beta.

I think this is relevant, because I think she has an inherent need to be in control of everything, including her relationships, and I think I constantly saw evidence of this in terms of how she handles her family, etc. She is the queen bee, and everything she says pretty much goes. She has tried to be like that with me from time to time, and it just didn’t work. I can’t be someone’s worker bee.  I just can’t. I don’t think she can, either, so that may be part of why she has started to withdraw over the last few months, because I don’t think she feels she can keep up with someone that has relatively strong alpha characteristics, particularly in my own household and in my relationships.

If anything, I think I have been much stronger of a presence in her life over the last bunch of months, but I see where it has gotten me, pretty much nowhere with her, and I suspect that there are easily identified reasons related to borderline as to why.  I suspect that borderlines typically need to be in control, and I just wasn’t conceding that to her. That could be why breaking up with me seems to give her a sense of control over the situation, and then the subsequent make ups seem to drive her sense of belonging.

Contrary to that, she did say last night that she just couldn’t do the up and down cycles anymore, because it was so great between us for a few weeks afterward, but then she often said it was me that pushed her away by either getting into an argument, saying stuff about her texts hurting me, or having a discussion about me wanting for her to trust me. That came up in each of these last conversations, as well.

I told her a few weeks ago in our first big conversation that I wanted her to be able to trust me more and believe what I was saying to her. I’m not sure how she took that, and it was used a little bit as a weapon last night, as if I was trying to con her into something that she wasn’t ready to be, and that was trusting. 

Trust seems very hard for her, even though she went on and on last night about how she starts off trusting people until they give her a reason not to. I would beg to differ on that one, but I kept my mouth shut.

people with bpd traits are just like you and i are. they do the same things, they think and feel the same things. they just do, think, and feel these things, to greater extremes and/or more often, and they handle them immaturely, or dysfunctionally. feeling thrown out (for example) would be upsetting to anyone. it wouldnt, necessarily, stick with everyone to the extent it has, and for the length of time that it has.

you are seeing the manifestation of things that she has carried throughout the relationship, and, simply put, has not been able, if she ever will be, to cope with. that is, in essence, why relationships break down. love is not always enough to overcome this. effort is not always enough to overcome this. my own relationship taught me that; it was a hard lesson. sometimes two people can love each other very much and not be able to make it work because their differences are irreconcilable, and/or their is too little trust, and too much hurt.

you arent to blame for that. neither is she. its like you said, there are no winners.

you did a great job of shifting the dynamic in this last week or two. that mattered. it still does, going forward. and frankly, it will no matter what happens. if the breakup is permanent, you will have little doubt that you gave it your best shot, and that will matter to you long after the pain goes away.

it may not have been enough. the damage, the distrust, the relationship breakdown, may have been too great. that said, how this has played out is really not all that surprising. shes confused. im certain that breaking up isnt something shed prefer to do. it is something she likely, over time, has determined she has to do, but has struggled with (and even if things were going perfectly gangbusters, its not all that surprising that she would return to doubts about continuing). the hope here is that the last week or two gave her a taste of how things could be different. give her time to think about what she said, and what you said.

Words cannot measure how much you guys have been so incredibly helpful and profoundly insightful. For that I thank you.

It will be a hard road ahead. I have little faith that I will ever be with someone that I felt that same kind of connection with as my now former partner. I’ve never connected like that with anyone, and probably never will again. I don’t attract partners easily, and she excepted me as I was, and had a strong appreciation for everything that I brought to the table, except for The parts we have been discussing here.

I need to let this go, and maybe forever. I don’t know. There are so many stories on the Internet, including once removed… That tell the stories of people that love each other, but when things go bad, things just can’t be patched up. They can’t be fixed. That’s just the nature of human interaction, I suppose.

All this being said, I am betting that you would think it is not prudent to reach out to her one last time with one last sentimental  text telling her that I love her, and I will miss her, and that I have every faith that her and I could get to a better place if she ever chooses to revisit it in the future.

Would she be able to interpret a message like that as anything other than coercion? I suspect not.

youll have companions on every stage of this walk on the Detaching board, when, and if, you decide to commit to doing so. i might give it a few days, and see where things go, work out your feelings here.


think about it. if you just broke up with someone, and really let them have it with the blame, how would you take a message like that? you wouldnt know what to do with it.

unless you are 110% committed to breaking up, over it, and just wanted to get some belongings back or something, theres not a word that i would say. even in a case like that, i would give it some time. shes going to think about what she said, and shes probably going to feel bad about it. let her do both. it will look strong, and at the very least, when you do talk to her, she will be back to baseline.

Yes!  Very important for you!

Best,

FF

Well, guys… I think I have portrayed almost nothing but strength to her (if I am bold enough to say that), which I think might be part of the problem.

I don’t think she is capable of being around someone that has the kind of mental strength that I have shown her. I have been consistently fun, determined, kind, gentle… constantly there for her and with her.  Not much more strength I can show her, really. 

When she asked me last night what I have actually done to show my love for her, I told her that I have been there each and every time… every turn… She took that more as an insult, and didn’t think that was at all a worthy gesture, considering that she blamed me for all the break ups anyway.

I think I figured out where you...perhaps..."lit it on fire".

Most likely this statement was "invalidating" to her.  If someone is asking you that question...and it sounds like she had "tone" while she was asking..right?

She likely wasn't looking for your honest input.  Her feelings are that you don't love her (for whatever reason..that's where they were)...and you are arguing that "you were there for her..each and every turn  (well...except for tossing her out on her arse...but..oh yeah..she was ticked about that too...)

JADE...she invited you to "justify" your love for her...and you stepped up and took a big swing.

invalidation...JADE...

Anyway..these things likely took a difficult conversation and poured gas on it.

I know this wasn't your intent..but can you see this point of view?

Best,

FF

Excellent perspective, FF.

I will bite…

Well, that statement about me being there for her at every turn was near the end of the conversation, almost right as she was leaving. Not that this validates what I am saying, but I am wondering what effect it may have one way or the other. 

She did leave rather worked up, because she kept saying that she felt invalidated, and that I wasn’t getting what she was trying to tell me and never have.  It was pretty ugly. She was looking right at me and talking to me as if I was an invalid. Mostly, I stood there and took it in silence.

Can we do a hypothetical? Let’s do a role-play… Let’s say you are her, and you are asking me how I have convinced you that I love you… Knowing your condition, what would you think would be best for me to say?

Not that I will necessarily ever have a chance to use this strategy, but I think everything I learned from you guys will be helpful at some point, somewhere.

Not to mention that most of the time I have known her, when she splits like this, she talks to me as if I am a complete idiot, and that I have no clue what I’m doing, and I am in no way up to the task of challenging her on anything, because clearly, to her, I am incapable of understanding what she’s saying, Let alone having no clue how to satisfy her deep hurt.

How do I validate her in times like this? Is it even possible?

It was a little strange yesterday… The first half of our our walk was actually reasonably pleasant. We chitchatted, got caught up about the day and about the week, and about halfway through she just started to say, “well, I think I better just start talking about all the things we have been talking about over the last few weeks… And here’s the deal“. I remained completely silent for about 20 minutes, not uttering a word, so I really did nothing at that point to inflame her. She pretty much already had it figured out she was going to let me go.

We had such a nice conversation the night before, and she seemed to look forward to getting together and even coming to fireworks tonight. I guess it’s useless to try to understand when someone is constantly oscillating back and forth from black to white.

And within one night, without any dialogue, she goes silent, and then upon walking, she breaks up with me. It’s just almost seems so random. She even was saying during the walk that the last couple of weeks have been quite good and had seemed promising, but she just didn’t want to have the cycle continue over and over any more..

She said she loved my family and my daughter, and she loves me, but she just can’t stay in a situation where she doesn’t emotionally trust the person she is with. She may be right. I don’t trust her, either. That doesn’t mean I don’t love her, or she doesn’t love me… Maybe it’s just meant to be this way. It seems pretty stupid, but maybe me trying to figure all of this out is pretty pointless.

So...at some point part of "exhibiting strength" is uphold "boundaries".  One of my boundaries is I don't do circular conversations.  If I get to the 4th circle...I'm really ticked at myself.

You have to do 2 circles to have one...so really for me it's all about what I do on the third circle.

I bring this up because it sounds like she gets ticked and reaches back for "you threw me out".."you have a booger you won't pick"...etc etc and those have been talked to death already..right?

And listen..they are worth talking about, yet they are also worth moving past.

So that's what I "force".  Essentially a "do you want me to give you empathy, a hug and sorry"...or do we need to do "problem solving".  What I won't do...REGARDLESS OF COST...is discuss FF's failings...yet again.  (very different than arguing I have no failings)

Switching gears to your next question.

What to say in the moment?  I'll flip it and ask a bigger question, "should you say anything in the moment".  You trying to explain that you love her is going to be invalidating in that moment..you know that. 

I would probably say "This moment is so intense, I don't know what to say right now.  I'd like to give you a hug and think about all you've said for a while."

That's probably something along the lines of what I would say.

Best,

FF

Excellent examples, FF.

I didn’t do those things.  I tried, for the millionth time, to explain my language of love… Meaning, I have been there for her over and over and have never left. To me, that’s one of the biggest acts of love I could give her. She could not interpret it that way, as you guys are seeing.  I’m still having a hard time seeing how that would trigger her or invalidate her. I’m a little stumped on this one, still.

I still am not good at that. If she wants me to prove how I love her, I have typically come up with examples. Time and time again. Usually, I believe my examples have connected with her, and I think it helps calm her down to come head to head with concrete examples of how her and I can really work well together as a team. I didn’t really go that far this time around. I said very little, other than what you already know.

Let me think if there’s anything else I can remember that we talked about yesterday.

I said all the things I’ve said many times to her, and perhaps to you guys…

“I can’t change what has happened in the past, I have tried really hard to learn from it and move forward, and I think I’ve done a pretty good job with that, and you have even said so.  Tell me what more I might be able to do”.

And…

“I believe we can get beyond this with hard work. We have seen it before, and I have felt things improving over time. You have said so yourself. In the mental health field, it is often believed that couples can get stronger after they have fought hard to overcome these kinds of obstacles.”

I think I may have said that after she said that she didn’t think there was any way back from her not trusting me. She said that while looking into my eyes multiple times. “I just don’t trust you, and I don’t trust that you’ll never do something like that again, like throw me out at 3 AM, or write something biased about me in a text to one of your friends. I don’t even know if I could ever face your friends again, because I don’t know what crap you’ve been saying to them and how you’ve been spinning it, because what you said to your friend and that text was a complete butchery of what really happened, and you left out complete details that show the context of what actually happened, and you did it as a pity party“

She is right, to an extent. I said a lot more in the text that was easily interpreted to sharing the blame for what happened the night before, when I “threw her out“.  Several times since then, we have talked in detail about that, and I’ve been really honest that I felt hugely traumatized that night, and the next morning I sent that text to my friend because I just needed someone to validate my position and listen to what I was saying.  We had just gotten together with my distant friend that day, which was the first time they met my GF, I was looking for sympathy and pity party. She was right, and I even said so. And I told her I was in such a bad space that I wasn’t thinking clearly and I was hugely hurt by what happened the night before.  I couldn’t have been more honest. I don’t know what else I could have said to ease her pain and helped her with her trust. I don’t think there’s anything more I could’ve said.

She can’t really understand why I would be hurt by what happened the night before:  Her being incapable of hearing what I was trying to tell her prior to the split… Her taking everything I was saying gently to her as criticism and getting highly reactive and defensive… and her eventually turning away from me and telling me that we were basically done and that she didn’t think she wanted to continue with me anymore.

This escalated to the point, and I was unable to recognize what was happening, that I started to have a mental meltdown and felt in such pain that I had no choice, so I thought, to suggest that she leave just to alleviate my mental torture. I even said to her last night that her leaving that night was the last thing I ever wanted her to do. I said that to her multiple times before, and she seems surprised to hear me say that, as if she was thinking… Well what in the fook did you say that to me for then?

When I have repeatedly told her that I behaved like that because I was encountering my own trigger and mental health collapse, she fails to truly hear what I am saying, and even last night she said that I have never given her a valid excuse as to why I did those things. I don’t think there’s much better of an excuse than to tell someone that you had a mental collapse and you were going through a terrible traumatic experience. It wasn’t good enough for her. It’s almost as if her brain has a shield on it to prevent her from really understanding that I have mental collapses, as well.

She asked me again last night if I had a better explanation than I had given her before, and I avoided the question.

So what else…

She tried to validate that calling me names during her texts was perfectly appropriate, because she said some of my behavior was narcissistic… I think she was reaching at straws, because she called me a lot more names in her texts… But as mentioned, she seemed to expect last night that I knew that she was saying those things in anger, which I knew to be true, but that was the first time she had ever said it out loud. It’s as if I was supposed to know that. I didn’t really respond much to that, other than to say, “ this is the first time that you have said that you said those things in anger, and I wish you would have said that a while ago.“ That’s really all I said in response.

I did suggest the therapy thing… But that went over like a ton of bricks.

I don’t really remember a lot more that I said. As mentioned, I did mostly listening. It’s hard to be hugely empathetic when someone is throwing darts at you. She would probably punch me in the face if I asked her some thing like does she need a hug.  I know I that’s not the right phraseology.

I think it will be a steep learning curve, if I ever do have another chance to talk to this girl.

I think I’ve asked on this site many times before, and I know there’s no way to know for sure, but if you were betting men, would you bet on hearing from this girl again?

I'm gonna bet big...BIIIIIIIIGGGG on hearing from her again.

Best,

FF

figuring it all out will aid you greatly in recovery (assuming the worst). understanding it from her perspective, as well as yours, as well as that of a more objective outsider, in the long run, takes the sting out, it puts the "coulda woulda shouldas" to rest (because its never about one thing), and there will be lessons you can carry into the next relationship that will make a better relationship more possible, and you an even better partner. finding that balance, for me, was closure.

its probably a little soon to be doing that, even if you wanted to in the moment. but when a relationship fails, its a failure to connect, or to resolve conflict. it isnt (usually) one persons fault, and some conflicts just cant be resolved.


validation isnt about finding magic words to soothe someone. start from that premise.

one of the early concepts i was introduced to that helped me get it was the notion that "feelings are always valid". feelings may be extreme/disproportionate. conclusions about the feelings (not the same as the feelings themselves) may be extreme or flat out wrong.

and people with bpd traits feel everything on an extreme level. they are also easily prone to feeling invalidated (primarily the result of many, many insecurities). they are highly sensitive people (you and i may be highly sensitive people, if not bpd). and there are a lot of things, fears, insecurities, that tend to drive those feelings to extreme levels. underneath it all, the underlying feeling is generally valid.

validation is about first accepting that someone feels the way they feel, and then empathizing with it; putting yourself in their shoes and getting where they are coming from, and why they feel the way they feel.

begin by accepting that "throwing her out" (for lack of a better term) really hurt her. it felt like a huge betrayal. it felt personal. it felt like being kicked out by you, like being evicted by you. it hurt her enough that it has stuck with her for a very long time. remember, this is someone with lifelong, above average fears of abandonment. it further hurt her that you didnt call to check up to make sure she got home, a double whammy. virtually all women, generally more than men, look for signs that a relationship may not last. this was one such sign for her.

now, i dont know all the details about that night, but i gather she was being pretty ridiculous and hurtful, and i understand why you did it. in fact, i kicked my ex out, or left, or tried to do either one of those things, many, many times. i understand your side of it.

telling her your side of it is not validating. it may even be invalidating, at least in the moment. thats not to say there isnt a time or place to tell your side of it. the question, when dealing with a highly sensitive person, is how, and when, and when they (anyone) are worked up and most wanting to be heard is often the worst time. loving someone with bpd is generally about learning to be an even better listener.

its also not to say she wasnt totally unreasonable about it. the fact is, she was so hurt by it, that she couldnt see beyond that hurt (weve all been there. think about a time that you were. people with bpd traits are like that, about the big stuff, and what seems to us, like the small stuff). maybe, at times, she could, but ultimately, she couldnt.

ill give you an example. my ex and i fought a lot about me looking at porn. its a long story, full of attempts on both our parts to resolve the issue, full of hours long fights, full of each of us explaining, time and time again, our positions on it, it includes broken promises (on both sides), it even includes the fun time she found (the next morning) that i had looked the previous night, and her screaming bloody murder outside of my home, very early in the morning, causing my neighbors to come outside. good times.

eventually, a year or so before we broke up, i told her i was done with the issue, done fighting about it, and that i was going to look. that if that was a significant enough problem, that i understood if she couldnt continue the relationship (she mostly just heard this as me saying porn was more important than her. it wasnt, to me, but i can understand exactly why she felt that way). some time before we did break up, she told me how much that broke her, hurt her, and caused her lingering resentment toward me. i can understand that. i dont agree with all of her conclusions (and i can tell you my own very different side, i can tell you about all of her snooping, and i can tell you about her numerous double standards), but it pained me to know that it had done that to her.

it was one of a number of conflicts we couldnt resolve, and things we couldnt accept about each other; not necessarily the particular one, but it was a big contributor. it was something she couldnt get past. and i think her feelings about it were absolutely valid. its not a dissimilar example, really. a lot of us have these stories about things our loved ones (past or present) couldnt/cant get past. the fact that some remain together in spite of it tells you that a breakup is usually about more than one "thing".

as for her insecurity about your ex wife? thats tough. people with bpd traits, some more than others, can be especially jealous, possessive, insecure, what have you. mine was, and mine actually accused me of the same thing with an ex, which was preposterous. there are ways of dealing with a jealous person. it doesnt mean you ever make the jealousy go away, or that she would never have been insecure about your ex wife, and continued to bring it up. accomplishing that was/is pretty unlikely. validating also does not mean agreeing; you dont want to agree with or fuel what is a preposterous perception.

validating in that case, is again, about understanding the underlying feeling thats driving it. maybe she didnt feel prioritized by you. maybe she felt insignificant or second place. this happens all the time in sort of blended families, or when trying to blend families. its hard to say, and you would likely have better insight on how she felt (in retrospect, between the lines and conclusions and hyperbole, she probably told you more clearly than it might seem), but any of those things are valid feelings any of us might experience.

validating is about finding the underlying feeling, accepting it, getting it, and demonstrating that. what you do, or say, beyond that, depends.

it is completely unrealistic, by the way, that you would never hear from her again.

Hey there…

Nothing new to report in the saga.

I feel incredibly alone and abandoned. I had to take off for an overnight trip up into the mountains, because it seems the only time that I feel at peace is when I’m moving. Somewhere else. I dreaded coming back this afternoon, it was so depressing.

I’m doing only marginally OK when my brain is occupied with something. Almost the second that my brain is not preoccupied with something profound sadness rolls in.  Profound.

It’s almost unfathomable to think that this girl is likely no longer part of my life. It felt almost like a given that I would call her up tonight and tell her about my trip to the mountains, and how my day was and how my  band mate friends are doing, who she really loved, but would not go near for the last eight months, because she was afraid that I told them some thing biased and inflammatory. Of course, that was all my fault.

And then the reality hits. Her brain just fried out somehow and now she’s pretty much gone.

It is almost bizarre that in many ways, she is almost two distinctly different people. She can be this decent soft thoughtful girl, and then as fast as lightning can strike, she is this broken, nasty and hostile woman.  Sometimes it’s hard to see even the gray in between.

I guess I have felt like this before, thinking that this girl was gone pretty much forever, until she wasn’t. I felt exactly the same. No hope. I have felt this many times, and I just don’t know how many times I can feel it again, Despite how terribly sad and lonely I feel.

One step in front of the other. Breathe. Take another step. Breathe again. Try to eat and sleep. Try to extract as much joy as possible from the large amount of darkness. That’s my existence right now.

No one should be putting this amount of energy into a dysfunctional relationship, and its demise. On the other hand, this feels like a death in my family, which in many ways it is.  A huge chunk of my world is basically gone. That just doesn’t seem right.

any update?