The talk seem to go really well, and I bet we talked for three hours

[formflier]

Your desire for her to "do something" other than be a "consumer" in the relationship is completely valid.

Can we kick around some ideas for a few weeks?  I suspect this will be a baby steps thing..but not sure.

Best,

FF

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Mr. Kelly]

Well guys, I think I should thank you for all of your help. But I believe it’s over.

We ended up getting together for a walk, because it was going to rain, and about half an hour into our walk she starts talking, and she basically says she doesn’t think she’ll ever be able to get past the things I have done to her and that she doesn’t trust me and doesn’t think she ever will, and she thinks that she can’t be with someone that she can’t trust.

She says she has tried and try to let go of “the things I did to her“ but she just can’t get them out of her head and they just reverberate around, and everything in her tells her that it’s not a healthy relationship and that she needs to leave.

She named one thing after the other that I allegedly failed to take any real responsibility for … I threw her out at 3 AM last September. Then I wasn’t man enough to call to see that she got home all right.   Then, the next morning I wrote that pretty embarrassing text to my friend telling him that I loved her when she was stable.  Then, I partnered with my ex-wife to get a dog and didn’t discuss it with her, which show disrespect for her.  She had every story wrapped up in her own narrative, and nothing I could say or said, ever since those things happened, has been able to rattle that narrative.

She doesn’t believe I respect her, and she may be right. How can I respect someone that can’t get out of their own way?  She seemed perfectly OK validating the nasty things that she said to me over and over again, because she said she believes they were true, at the time.  Ironically, this is the first time ever she has actually said that I should have known that she just said those things in anger, but that maybe I need to own some of them. I kind of wish she would have said that a few weeks ago… This is the first time ever she has told me that she said those things in anger.

Anyway… I didn’t say anything for the longest time tonight, but then for about the last half an hour it started to go back-and-forth and got pretty ugly on her part. Needless to say, I think she is just basically done and I don’t think she can get her way back. 

I encouraged her that people can get through stuff like this, and that the general consensus is that getting through difficult times can actually bring people closer and even increase intimacy, but she wasn’t buying it. She said it was too much and too late and that there was nothing that could ever be done that was likely going to make her be able to trust me in a meaningful way, and in a way that would prevent her from going back-and-forth like she’s been going for the last 10 months.  She just said that no decent person whatever do what I did to her.

I told her over and over that I believed that we could get through these things, and she pretty much just told me that she says I’m good to talk but not good at action, even though I think I’ve made so much progress over the last 10 months from where I was before. Even she agrees with that, but then she still can’t get past the trust issue. She looked me right in the eye and said I don’t trust you and I don’t think I ever will.

That’s pretty much it. Don’t know what more to say.

[formflier]

How many times has she changed her mind since you have known her?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

How many times has she changed her mind since you have known her?

Best,

FF

I really don’t think so this time. She seemed pretty clear in her resolve that she had to end things. If you listened to everything she said, from an outsiders perspective, you would think that everything that she says makes perfect sense, and she has every reason to want to leave this situation, because it is unhealthy.  I could go on and on. She was very convincing, if you weren’t there to see the stories unfold with your own eyes.

There’s two sides to every story, though, and I believe she has self created almost every obstacle, minus the two or three things that were my fatal flaws, supposedly, and she had used these narratives to break up each and every time.

I know that she is likely borderline, but she’s really making me wonder whether I am sane, and whether these things that I did to her were truly enough to make a stable person feel that I am untrustworthy and then break up with me.

She went on and on how each time she broke up with me was valid, and it was because of what I did, and how I self-destructed the relationship.

It’s going to be awhile before I unravel all of this in my brain. First, I have to figure out whether what she is saying is true. Did I self destruct the relationship? I don’t really think I did, but she does.

You imply that you think that she will be back. Would you elaborate a bit on that?  It’s hard to imagine. She was pretty convincing and fairly lucid. It’s clear that she believes her own narrative, and her narrative seems pretty well concocted.

[formflier]

How many times has she said it's over?  Is this the first?

Please don't "interpret"..just give me a number based on the words she used.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

How many times has she said it's over?  Is this the first?

Please don't "interpret"..just give me a number based on the words she used.

Best,

FF

I would say it has been, on average, about once every month and a half for the last year and a half. Pretty much each and every time she has sent me an angry and hostile text telling me she will never reconcile with me again.

This time seemed different, FF. She was very calm and thoughtful. Anyone that didn’t know the scenario like I did would completely buy into her narrative.  I am almost having a hard time believing my own memory. It’s making me wonder if I really did screw up and I drove her away.

I’m pretty heartbroken and confused.

[Mr. Kelly]

She even said that she liked the effort I had been putting in over the last few weeks, like we had been talking about on here. She said she loved the sense of family that I offered, and she loved my daughter, which was making it so hard for her to make this decision earlier and stick with it.

She said she was coming back time and time again because she loved me and wanted to make it work, but she felt I kept doing things that pushed her way, and especially that she couldn’t trust me because of me “throwing her out at 3 AM, last September, and then writing to a good friend that I “loved her when she was stable“ and “how nobody I know can’t understand why I would get back together with her under such circumstances“. She saw that text and was horrified.

It was pretty much these two things that were at the head of her reasoning. She says she just can’t trust me, and she can’t be with someone who she believes thinks one thing to her face and something else behind her back.  She does have a point. I do completely that.

I understand what she’s saying. She says she needs to completely trust whoever she is with, and that I violated that trust by throwing her out and writing what she saw was the nasty text to my friend, and now she says she doesn’t trust being around anyone I know because she fears that I have said something in a biased way that could make her feel shamed. She went on and on. It’s nothing really new, she just says she doesn’t think she’ll ever get past it and it will continue to confuse her forever, therefore she hast to leave. Part of me gets it, and part of me wonders if it may not be the smartest thing that she could do for herself. She needs to heal, and maybe someday she’ll see that she has self-destructed in so many ways.

In a nutshell, these were the break up problems:

- didn’t do enough to purge my house of things from my ex-wife. She insisted that I was hung up on her, and I’m still dealing with unresolved feelings.  That was a recurring theme.  That was really the source of probably the first two or three break ups.

- after that, break ups were mostly center around me throwing her out at 3 AM, even though I practically begged her not to leave that night, and stood in front of her car door to try to talk her out of it. She doesn’t care about that. She says the fact that I dared to say something like that to somebody I love, particularly when I should have known that her trauma background would trigger her sense of abandonment. 

I have tried time and time again to explain that the events leading up to that night triggered my own sense of abandonment, and I felt that the only choice I had that night was to ask her to leave, or I was literally going to have a mental breakdown.  She said tonight that she has never heard what she thought was a valid excuse for me asking her to leave that night.

I don’t think she will ever get over the text that I sent to my friend that accidentally got to her. It drew attention to my own instability almost as much as it did her own, but she will never trust me again, I don’t think. Even though I’ve come such a long way over the last 10 months to get better at managing my own demons, as well as hers.

I don’t feel a lot of hope left here, FF. She looked me in the eye and told me she didn’t think she could ever trust me the way she need to do to be moving forward, and that she was leaving. That was it.

[once removed]

she may very well change her mind.

id say, to some extent, its in your hands as to whether or not to take her at face value, and determine if this is overcomeable, and if so how, or if the instability of the relationship itself is something to take at face value.

really making me wonder whether I am sane, and whether these things that I did to her were truly enough to make a stable person feel that I am untrustworthy and then break up with me.

people with bpd traits have a great, inherent difficulty when it comes to trust. even when relationship security is ultimately there. it sounds like asking her to leave really stuck with her and felt like a huge betrayal. whether thats reasonable or not, it is very hard for someone with bpd traits to get past what they feel is a big betrayal. my relationship had one or two of its own. we never recovered, even though we lasted another year, year and a half.

so, to me, whether shes done or not is only part of the question here. she may be done. or she may decide otherwise. or she may decide otherwise and the same thing will happen again.

its a tough call. you may have to be the one to make it.

[Mr. Kelly]

I don’t really know if I have a call to make.

Typically, during these many break ups, I can usually pick up on some sort of in between the lines signal that gave me the indication that may be all was not what it appeared… I didn’t get that signal this time around. She was pretty conclusive, pretty calculated, and seemingly determined.  She didn’t give an inch. She was done. Anytime I even tried to reason with her, she got hostile and nasty. It’s because of my behavior that she has broken up all of these times, and her testament to loving me was trying harder and getting back together each and every time.  No more, in her mind.  She said it was painfully hard, considering how much she loves me, loves my daughter, and how well her grandkids get along with my daughter… She said those are all the reasons she kept coming back, but she can’t do it anymore.

I don’t really know what more I could do that I haven’t done many many times. If you say it’s really my call, it almost feels that the only call that I have is the power to just call it a day. What other call can I make?

[Mr. Kelly]

I certainly don’t feel that anything that has happened between her and I is not overcome-able.  But I am not her, and I can’t feel what she feels. 

I made the mistake of using the language of her nasty break up texts as an example of how I have been able to overcome hurtful things and worked hard to move forward. I don’t think she was too impressed with that comparison. She seems to think she had every valid reason to write nasty things to me.

[once removed]

i dont mean to give you false hope. you know her best.

and i think you should treat her words at face value.

i mean to suggest that in the event she changes her mind, changes her mind and then changes it again, sends what seem like mixed signals, or for that matter blows up at you some more and says hurtful things, people with bpd traits can be as confused as us if not more, can swing, and can, frankly, be kind of self centered about it and do some insensitive or hurtful things. it would be up to you to think beyond that, long term.

it sucks right now man, im sorry. it may be especially hard, but id go radio silent (and by that i dont mean silent treatment, i mean the ball is very much in her court here). she kinda threw the kitchen sink. let her think about it. it wont be the last conversation she wants to have.

lastly, that she made it about blame hurts, and its going to hurt. my ex did the same thing, and i spent a long time with my confidence shot, feeling not good enough. the blame is about, and coming from her own hurt. try, as hard as that may be, to understand that yes - she really does have strong feelings about these things and yes - shes telling you about times in the relationship that, from her perspective, contributed to its break down - a relationship is a complex series of interactions that isnt, typically, about blame. its just that the conflict (for either one of you personally, or between both of you) couldnt be resolved. i know thats of cold comfort right now; my point is that things are far more complicated than her narrative or that you drove her away.

often times, throughout the relationship, theres a lot going on with our loved ones, boiling under the surface, that we arent privy to, and then sometimes it boils up. thats what this was. hang in there. we are here.

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you, For all of the support and encouragement.

All the things that she has rounded up that “I did to her” are valid to her, but to me, it seems like she has almost self created each and every one.

My supposed infraction, that has been at the center of most of the break ups since last September, was likely the result of me snapping, from a years worth of her splitting, and blaming and shaming who I am, and her projecting her negative energy and needs into the relationship.

I tried everything I could to constantly make her feel valued, and wanted, and appreciated. It seems like she couldn’t hear it, and she continuously took little things and made them into great big problems.

For me, it was likely trauma bonding. For her, she knew she had a good thing. She knew I was a good person and loved her. What she has done with that over the last two years, I am sure, is the result of her trauma, as is likely this final discard.

Yes, I think she’s been trying to end this for a long time, but I don’t think it’s because it has been unhealthy for her, which may be true in a greater sense, but because I don’t believe she feels capable, maybe even subconsciously, of sustaining a relationship with someone who is not as angry and hostile as she is.

Don’t get me wrong, I am angry and hostile, but I’m more of the quiet type. 

It’s completely possible that this is just the bottom part of one of her cycles, and eventually she’ll come out of it. I’m not convinced of that this time around, though. Her narratives of what I did to her are wound so tightly that I don’t think she’ll ever be able to see any other perspective other than I “did these things to her“. She can’t self evaluate her part in it, nor can she empathize what I may have been experiencing during those same interactions. She just can’t. Her only justification is that I did these things to her and she can’t trust me and doesn’t think she ever will, and therefore, she just can’t get past what I did to her.

There’s no winner in this situation, just two losers.  That’s just not OK, but I’ve spent two years trying to talk her down from the ledge, constantly. She’s got to be able to step down on her own, and I don’t see that happening this time around.

[formflier]

What it takes to be in one of these relationships

What did you think of this article? 

What attributes do they describe in this article as "being needed" by you (or someone that wants to stick it out in one of these r/s) to be "successful?

Yes..there is a point to this that will HELP YOU IMMENSELY, even given your current outlook on things.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

What it takes to be in one of these relationships

What did you think of this article?  

What attributes do they describe in this article as "being needed" by you (or someone that wants to stick it out in one of these r/s) to be "successful?

Yes..there is a point to this that will HELP YOU IMMENSELY, even given your current outlook on things.

Best,

FF

Thank you, I have read that before and just reread it. I do get all those things, and to tell you the truth, I think over the last six months, I have done quite well in almost all of these areas.

I think my biggest faux pas was to bring up my own hurt twice in the last few conversations late at night.

Other than that, I have concentrated on fun, being very positive, and the goofy person that I usually am when things are going well.

I am not sure what your point is in bringing that article up, because if she is not willing Or able to get through things that of happened almost a year ago, even though she says she sees that I have tried really hard, but on the other hand says I still invalidate her experiences, then I really don’t know what more I can possibly do.

Even my telling her that her nasty texts were very hurtful to me seems to bring her to the thought that she has been invalidated and that her feelings aren’t real.

With all of this being said, guys, what hub could I possibly have at this point?  I get the impression that she feels she is totally spent and done, and for her own survival, I think she knows she needs to leave. I don’t know how else to interpret that, or what else I could possibly do, despite the strength I have shown to her over the last six months.

[Mr. Kelly]

Don’t know where to go with that.

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that this is just another repeat of her cycle, and that maybe she would resurface within a while… What in the world would I even do at this point? The last words that she said to me was that she would never trust me again, and that maybe with someone else she could.

The look on her face when she looked at me the last time when she got in her car May have been a bit of a sign. It was one of complete sadness and despair, almost as if her eyes were telling me that she doesn’t want to do this, but she thinks she has to.

Back to the hypothetical… What could I possibly do at this point other than let her go and see if she somehow springs back with a sign of some sort in the future?

Plus, even if she was at some point in the future interested in opening up dialogue, what’s the point if she is just going to continue to crash like this? I get it. It’s a mental condition. But I have to protect my own sanity, as well. That makes this whole scenario seem almost insurmountable. I love this girl deeply, but I can’t keep thinking that every time she splits like this that it’s just her mental illness. I can’t keep hurting myself like this. It almost seems self abusive.

Maybe I do know where the split is coming from. She was finding her way back, and I made a fatal mistake of pointing out how her behavior with her constantly breaking up and nasty texts were hurtful and self-destructive. I conveyed that with clarity and with certainty. I was being honest with her, but gentle and kind as I said it, so in most scenarios it would be only taken as a way to connect, reflect and move forward. I don’t think she was capable of seeing it as anything other than rejection or criticism. It wasn’t meant or conveyed that way, at all, I thought I tried to convey it in a manner that was meant to heal, not criticize.

Nevertheless, I think the damage was done, and perhaps this break up is a direct result of that. She brought those conversations up several times as one of the founding principles of her feeling that I was invalidating all of her past hurts. Someone whose brain works differently Would not likely see the things I have said to her recently in a way that would be damaging like this, but this isn’t a normal situation, clearly.

Is there any way to navigate through this mess, or is it just too broken? She says it’s just too broken. She said repeatedly there are some things that you just can’t come back from, things that I did to her have made her feel that way. She just can’t get past it. You could see anger and hurt buildup in the whole time she was talking about the time I suggested she leave at 3 AM, and then wrote those terrible things to my friend that she saw.

Is there really any way out of this loophole?

[formflier]

What it takes to be in one of these relationships

 

What attributes do they describe in this article as "being needed" by you (or someone that wants to stick it out in one of these r/s) to be "successful?
 

Hey...I wasn't asking you to evaluate your past performance.  I'm asking what attributes are needed to be "successful"...?

Why are those attributes listed out like that?

Best,

FF

[once removed]

a fatal mistake of pointing out how her behavior with her constantly breaking up and nasty texts were hurtful and self-destructive.

im not sure this was a fatal mistake.

probably the most important thing was that you not beg, or chase, or plead. strength and dignity and calm were essential.

when my ex ended it, i made the case for our relationship - that we could be better - but i didnt plead; same as you did. that will matter to you throughout this process and beyond, no matter what happens.

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that this is just another repeat of her cycle, and that maybe she would resurface within a while… What in the world would I even do at this point?
...
Back to the hypothetical… What could I possibly do at this point other than let her go and see if she somehow springs back with a sign of some sort in the future?

the path through healing from a breakup actually looks, more or less, the same as it does as if you were trying to get her back.

1. i would not contact her for now, in any way. let things marinate.
2. you get back to the upbeat, confident guy that she fell for in the first place
3. you explore what exactly it is that broke the relationship down over time

the only difference with number three is that you either use it to inform your healing, or to determine whether the relationship would be possible to reconcile, and how.

the cards you have to play are, to be sure, very limited. but nothing looks more attractive to a woman, or catches her off guard, more than a man that can accept a breakup, not happily, but knowing at the end of the day (if not many days), that hes going to be okay. she will feel badly about how the conversation went. she will likely want to revisit it, and conclude it on a better note. whether her mind changes is impossible to say, but, especially if you show strength (i think you spent the last week or two planting those seeds), she will likely go through doubts.

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey...I wasn't asking you to evaluate your past performance.  I'm asking what attributes are needed to be "successful"...?

Why are those attributes listed out like that?

Best,

FF

OK. I see what you are saying. However, I think I’ve gotten tremendously better and have done almost all of these things, and most of them I have done quite well. Especially in the last few months.  As I’ve said to her a million times, as much as I would like to, I can’t change what I did back then, I can only learn from it and try to prevent it from happening again, which I think I’ve been pretty successful doing.  It hasn’t been consistently helpful for her to hear me say that.

I think I drew my boundaries with her as of late, and she is now in a split, if that’s what it is. For all I know, she is thinking clearly, and just doesn’t want to continue.  But to me, in a normal relationship, who would break up with someone because they don’t emotionally trust that there partner is going to do something hurtful? She said multiple times that she was afraid I was going to do something like kick her out again, or start a stupid argument to push her away… She says she can’t do that anymore.

If I love someone as much as I believe she loves me, I would never let them go. I would continuously try to work harder and understand more. I know she has tried to do that, but I don’t think she believes I have.  Even last night, I stood in front of her and said “I’m right here… In front of you. I haven’t gone anywhere. I’m right here“. That seemed to offer little comfort, and almost more annoyance, since she basically said that me sticking around was because I felt guilty about my own behavior toward her, and the implication that I was sticking around for a more noble cause seemed insulting to her.

So, even if I do know all of these things that are necessary to be in a relationship, I have to now look into this situation and try to make heads or tails of it. Maybe it’s a typical split. Maybe she’ll come back around. Maybe she won’t.

OF… thanks for the input.  Always helpful.

I have no choice but to acknowledge the 1-3 that you point out. 

I have no doubt she is hurting right now. I do think she feels she did the right thing, and I don’t think she’ll be looking back anytime soon with any kind of real self reflection. I don’t think she has that capacity. I think me even saying that kind of validates what she was saying yesterday about her not believing that I respect her.   She gave me a couple of valid examples of that, and a few things that we just invented.

So, I have no choice but to put 1 foot in front the other and move on, with or without her, and I think it’s really in her hands. Of course, I could reach out with a text at some point after things have settled down, but at what cost? More pain and suffering for both of us?

She made it a point yesterday of clarifying that she was with her ex-husband for 11 years and never felt the same kind of mistrust for him, until he did things that earned that mistrust.  She clearly states that she believes I earned her mistrust, and there are things that she just can’t come back from, even though she has tried really hard, which she has. Very hard.

She is so smart and clear in her defense of her own narratives, that it was almost hard to try to defend myself, so in many ways, I really did very little defending, and a very small amount of encouragement. I think I knew what I had to do.  I listened for about the first 20 minutes, I sent a few things of encouragement, and then I knew I had to let it go, although I didn’t want to. I did argue with her a bit, I even told her and encouraged her to consider mental health counseling, since it might be a valuable way for her to be able to understand her pain and confusion, and I said that as a Hail Mary, and said that it has been hugely helpful to me as well, it is a device to help us learn about why we feel the pain that we do. I suspect that was a huge mistake, as well, but that was right near the end of her departure.

[formflier]

 she will likely go through doubts.

Yep...

Show her that the breakup is sad...but not devastating.  I wish I had a word a bit less that "sad".  You certainly do NOT want to let her see "distraught".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

OK. I see what you are saying. However, I think I’ve gotten tremendously better and have done almost all of these things, and most of them I have done quite well. 

This is a critical point...I would certainly feel better actually reading you talking about an attribute or two that you will be focusing on and discussing why that one is particularly important.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

She will likely want to revisit it, and conclude it on a better note. whether her mind changes is impossible to say, but, especially if you show strength (i think you spent the last week or two planting those seeds), she will likely go through doubts.

Well, characteristically, she has sent me a nasty text may be about a week afterward, telling me all the same things she did yesterday, and telling me goodbye for good, and wished me well… For closure. It happen every time.

I would plead back-and-forth with her for quite a few texts, until finally I would suggest we got together to talk about things, and she would agree.

I am not anticipating her to agree to do that anytime soon.

Maybe it has been my lack of pleadings in these last few exchanges that has made a difference, because there is a bit of power struggle inherent in these encounters, and I think by not pleading with her, she’s not feeling she has the upper hand.

Who really knows.

[Mr. Kelly]

As I think of all these things… I think about the notion of a power struggle.

I think to her, she wants to continuously engage in power struggles. Even last night, in the few occasions that I tried to validate anything or defend myself, I could see she was right at home starting to argue and get angry, almost as a go to strategy.

I have been infinitely better at not engaging these power struggles, or at least keeping them to a minimum, and diverting the negative energy into something more positive. I’m not sure I did that hugely well last night, But I certainly didn’t suck at it, but there was nowhere really for me to go with the conversation, since she was so definitive and decisive.  She’s never really been that Way in such encounters.

The topic of Alfa/beta came out a few months ago, I think after our month long break up in April… I told her that I could never be a beta to anyone. I I told her that I could likely do fairly well as dual alpha, but I would never be able to be someone’s beta.

I think this is relevant, because I think she has an inherent need to be in control of everything, including her relationships, and I think I constantly saw evidence of this in terms of how she handles her family, etc. She is the queen bee, and everything she says pretty much goes. She has tried to be like that with me from time to time, and it just didn’t work. I can’t be someone’s worker bee.  I just can’t. I don’t think she can, either, so that may be part of why she has started to withdraw over the last few months, because I don’t think she feels she can keep up with someone that has relatively strong alpha characteristics, particularly in my own household and in my relationships.

If anything, I think I have been much stronger of a presence in her life over the last bunch of months, but I see where it has gotten me, pretty much nowhere with her, and I suspect that there are easily identified reasons related to borderline as to why.  I suspect that borderlines typically need to be in control, and I just wasn’t conceding that to her. That could be why breaking up with me seems to give her a sense of control over the situation, and then the subsequent make ups seem to drive her sense of belonging.

Contrary to that, she did say last night that she just couldn’t do the up and down cycles anymore, because it was so great between us for a few weeks afterward, but then she often said it was me that pushed her away by either getting into an argument, saying stuff about her texts hurting me, or having a discussion about me wanting for her to trust me. That came up in each of these last conversations, as well.

I told her a few weeks ago in our first big conversation that I wanted her to be able to trust me more and believe what I was saying to her. I’m not sure how she took that, and it was used a little bit as a weapon last night, as if I was trying to con her into something that she wasn’t ready to be, and that was trusting. 

Trust seems very hard for her, even though she went on and on last night about how she starts off trusting people until they give her a reason not to. I would beg to differ on that one, but I kept my mouth shut.

[once removed]

people with bpd traits are just like you and i are. they do the same things, they think and feel the same things. they just do, think, and feel these things, to greater extremes and/or more often, and they handle them immaturely, or dysfunctionally. feeling thrown out (for example) would be upsetting to anyone. it wouldnt, necessarily, stick with everyone to the extent it has, and for the length of time that it has.

you are seeing the manifestation of things that she has carried throughout the relationship, and, simply put, has not been able, if she ever will be, to cope with. that is, in essence, why relationships break down. love is not always enough to overcome this. effort is not always enough to overcome this. my own relationship taught me that; it was a hard lesson. sometimes two people can love each other very much and not be able to make it work because their differences are irreconcilable, and/or their is too little trust, and too much hurt.

you arent to blame for that. neither is she. its like you said, there are no winners.

you did a great job of shifting the dynamic in this last week or two. that mattered. it still does, going forward. and frankly, it will no matter what happens. if the breakup is permanent, you will have little doubt that you gave it your best shot, and that will matter to you long after the pain goes away.

it may not have been enough. the damage, the distrust, the relationship breakdown, may have been too great. that said, how this has played out is really not all that surprising. shes confused. im certain that breaking up isnt something shed prefer to do. it is something she likely, over time, has determined she has to do, but has struggled with (and even if things were going perfectly gangbusters, its not all that surprising that she would return to doubts about continuing). the hope here is that the last week or two gave her a taste of how things could be different. give her time to think about what she said, and what you said.

[Mr. Kelly]

Words cannot measure how much you guys have been so incredibly helpful and profoundly insightful. For that I thank you.

It will be a hard road ahead. I have little faith that I will ever be with someone that I felt that same kind of connection with as my now former partner. I’ve never connected like that with anyone, and probably never will again. I don’t attract partners easily, and she excepted me as I was, and had a strong appreciation for everything that I brought to the table, except for The parts we have been discussing here.

I need to let this go, and maybe forever. I don’t know. There are so many stories on the Internet, including once removed… That tell the stories of people that love each other, but when things go bad, things just can’t be patched up. They can’t be fixed. That’s just the nature of human interaction, I suppose.

All this being said, I am betting that you would think it is not prudent to reach out to her one last time with one last sentimental  text telling her that I love her, and I will miss her, and that I have every faith that her and I could get to a better place if she ever chooses to revisit it in the future.

Would she be able to interpret a message like that as anything other than coercion? I suspect not.

[once removed]

youll have companions on every stage of this walk on the Detaching board, when, and if, you decide to commit to doing so. i might give it a few days, and see where things go, work out your feelings here.

All this being said, I am betting that you would think it is not prudent to reach out to her one last time with one last sentimental  text telling her that I love her, and I will miss her, and that I have every faith that her and I could get to a better place if she ever chooses to revisit it in the future.

think about it. if you just broke up with someone, and really let them have it with the blame, how would you take a message like that? you wouldnt know what to do with it.

unless you are 110% committed to breaking up, over it, and just wanted to get some belongings back or something, theres not a word that i would say. even in a case like that, i would give it some time. shes going to think about what she said, and shes probably going to feel bad about it. let her do both. it will look strong, and at the very least, when you do talk to her, she will be back to baseline.

[formflier]

  it will look strong

Yes!  Very important for you!

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Yes!  Very important for you!

Best,

FF

Well, guys… I think I have portrayed almost nothing but strength to her (if I am bold enough to say that), which I think might be part of the problem.

I don’t think she is capable of being around someone that has the kind of mental strength that I have shown her. I have been consistently fun, determined, kind, gentle… constantly there for her and with her.  Not much more strength I can show her, really. 

When she asked me last night what I have actually done to show my love for her, I told her that I have been there each and every time… every turn… She took that more as an insult, and didn’t think that was at all a worthy gesture, considering that she blamed me for all the break ups anyway.

[formflier]

When she asked me last night what I have actually done to show my love for her, I told her that I have been there each and every time… every turn… She took that more as an insult, and didn’t think that was at all a worthy gesture, considering that she blamed me for all the break ups anyway.

I think I figured out where you...perhaps..."lit it on fire".

Most likely this statement was "invalidating" to her.  If someone is asking you that question...and it sounds like she had "tone" while she was asking..right?

She likely wasn't looking for your honest input.  Her feelings are that you don't love her (for whatever reason..that's where they were)...and you are arguing that "you were there for her..each and every turn  (well...except for tossing her out on her arse...but..oh yeah..she was ticked about that too...)

JADE...she invited you to "justify" your love for her...and you stepped up and took a big swing.

invalidation...JADE...

Anyway..these things likely took a difficult conversation and poured gas on it.

I know this wasn't your intent..but can you see this point of view?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

I think I figured out where you...perhaps..."lit it on fire".

Most likely this statement was "invalidating" to her.  If someone is asking you that question...and it sounds like she had "tone" while she was asking..right?

She likely wasn't looking for your honest input.  Her feelings are that you don't love her (for whatever reason..that's where they were)...and you are arguing that "you were there for her..each and every turn  (well...except for tossing her out on her arse...but..oh yeah..she was ticked about that too...)

JADE...she invited you to "justify" your love for her...and you stepped up and took a big swing.

invalidation...JADE...

Anyway..these things likely took a difficult conversation and poured gas on it.

I know this wasn't your intent..but can you see this point of view?

Best,

FF

Excellent perspective, FF.

I will bite…

Well, that statement about me being there for her at every turn was near the end of the conversation, almost right as she was leaving. Not that this validates what I am saying, but I am wondering what effect it may have one way or the other. 

She did leave rather worked up, because she kept saying that she felt invalidated, and that I wasn’t getting what she was trying to tell me and never have.  It was pretty ugly. She was looking right at me and talking to me as if I was an invalid. Mostly, I stood there and took it in silence.

Can we do a hypothetical? Let’s do a role-play… Let’s say you are her, and you are asking me how I have convinced you that I love you… Knowing your condition, what would you think would be best for me to say?

Not that I will necessarily ever have a chance to use this strategy, but I think everything I learned from you guys will be helpful at some point, somewhere.

[Mr. Kelly]

Not to mention that most of the time I have known her, when she splits like this, she talks to me as if I am a complete idiot, and that I have no clue what I’m doing, and I am in no way up to the task of challenging her on anything, because clearly, to her, I am incapable of understanding what she’s saying, Let alone having no clue how to satisfy her deep hurt.

How do I validate her in times like this? Is it even possible?

It was a little strange yesterday… The first half of our our walk was actually reasonably pleasant. We chitchatted, got caught up about the day and about the week, and about halfway through she just started to say, “well, I think I better just start talking about all the things we have been talking about over the last few weeks… And here’s the deal“. I remained completely silent for about 20 minutes, not uttering a word, so I really did nothing at that point to inflame her. She pretty much already had it figured out she was going to let me go.

We had such a nice conversation the night before, and she seemed to look forward to getting together and even coming to fireworks tonight. I guess it’s useless to try to understand when someone is constantly oscillating back and forth from black to white.

And within one night, without any dialogue, she goes silent, and then upon walking, she breaks up with me. It’s just almost seems so random. She even was saying during the walk that the last couple of weeks have been quite good and had seemed promising, but she just didn’t want to have the cycle continue over and over any more..

She said she loved my family and my daughter, and she loves me, but she just can’t stay in a situation where she doesn’t emotionally trust the person she is with. She may be right. I don’t trust her, either. That doesn’t mean I don’t love her, or she doesn’t love me… Maybe it’s just meant to be this way. It seems pretty stupid, but maybe me trying to figure all of this out is pretty pointless.