The talk seem to go really well, and I bet we talked for three hours

[Mr. Kelly]

Hey all… I haven’t updated in a while…

I guess I could use some calming down and some words of wisdom from you guys/gals.

Last I mentioned, my lady friend and I had gone to breakfast, and things were ambiguous at best… Well that even got a little weirder, before it seems to have gotten better…

I asked her out for pizza with her grandson and my daughter, and we got together for the evening. She did not seem to be in a good space. She looked depressed, agitated, barely looked at me. We barely said anything to each other for the first hour and a half, and then something strange happened.

Her grandson started to beg to have a sleepover with my daughter, I didn’t know what to say.  It was strange, so I kind of ignored the request, until it repeatedly came up, and then my lady friend had to get in on it… I kind of remained mum, and then after not too long, my lady friend basically suggested she could come for the evening and stay over so that the kids could have a sleepover.

I didn’t think it was a particularly good idea, under the circumstances, but I thought what the heck, and I went for it.

The rest of the night was just weird. Very uncomfortable. And then, as we are getting ready for bed, we both lay down, and I felt about as stupid as could imagine… She says to me “I’m sorry that this is so awkward“.  I didn’t know what to make of it, or what she was trying to say, since there was no way to know what exactly why she was feeling so awkward… so I paused for a long while and said “I’m here to listen in any way that you might need”…

That seem to open the door to what she was experiencing over the last two weeks, and as I suspected, she had been thoroughly confused about the exact things I had been thinking she was… The wee hours conversation where I tried to get her to think about her break up text, the political discussion at the restaurant, etc.  She said she had been trying to make heads or tails, and from what I could tell, she was likely splitting between black and white.  She felt that I was trying to push her away with those conversations, and she just started to wonder if this is how things were going to be from here on in if she was to remain in the relationship.  A lot of what she described was not actually what I thought was happening in those conversations, but I just listened.

I’ll bet she spoke for a half an hour with me almost saying nothing, until I responded to a few of the things that she said very calmly, without a lot of justification of what was going on, and with positive reinforcement.

The talk seem to go really well, and I bet we talked for three hours. It seemed very cathartic to her that I was willing to hear what she had to say, and as we went to sleep, at 3:30 AM, it seemed like we were back on track and in a good place.  

At the risk of being overly descriptive, we were not “intimate“ after that, which I would have enjoyed, but I thought it would be good to take our time… The next morning was very sweet but she had to get up to go to work, so the morning was rather quick and uneventful.

Since then, we have been corresponding as we normally have, more or less… Some of the endearing things have been a little bit hard to read, like the usual end of telephone call “love you”s have been a little shaky… I’ve had to initiate. Usually it’s her.

Today, we had a few hours, and my daughter and I got together with her for a late brunch and a nice walk through the woods… Which she clearly enjoyed.

But still, when I approached her upon meeting up with her, it seemed that all she was comfortable with was to offer me  a cheek to kiss, which was the same upon departing, although I gave her a nice hug, as I always do, regardless of where we are at.  Still, I get the sense that she’s kind of holding back and not really allowing herself to be fully in or out.

So upon leaving, on one hand, it was nice that we had a nice meal and walk together, but I left feeling as if I’m being kept at arms length… At times I was impatient and just fantasized about asking her whether she was in or out, and other times I knew that I had to be patient and let her go through whatever she is going through.

I guess I’m a little bit disappointed that after our long talk and bonding Armen arm after that, that we would be moving a little more quickly to regain where we were before. I guess I’m impatient.

Any words of wisdom that you guys might be able to impart? I’m a little unsettled about stuff. Part of me thinks that by this time, she should be able to tell whether she wants to continue or not… And if she’s indecisive, I almost feel like considering starting to look elsewhere.

Thoughts?l

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

honestly, and you may be looking for more than this, but i think youre doing fine.

everything really seems to be going as expected (she brought up "stuff" when she was ready, she was confused about where things stood, she wanted to vent about the stuff she was mad about). you let her bring it up, and you listened.

i get that it feels uncomfortable, change always does.

i dont think things are nearly as ambiguous as they seem to you. its just awkward, and she clearly was feeling burned out. giving space helped with that. approaching her in a confident and upbeat way to just get together, as opposed to talking about "stuff" helped with that. listening to her vent helped with that.

now? like FF said, focus a lot on depositing in the fun account. thats how you get the spark back. show her a good time.

[formflier]

She says to me “I’m sorry that this is so awkward“.  I didn’t know what to make of it, or what she was trying to say, since there was no way to know what exactly why she was feeling so awkward… so I paused for a long while and said “I’m here to listen in any way that you might need”…
 

Dude!  Spike the ball and do a dance in the endzone! 

This is EXACTLY the vibe we were all looking for/advising.  Don't be shocked if more talks come up.  Don't use the same phrasing..but the same idea. 

Ditto to Once Removed..change is going to feel weird.  Solid work pressing forward doing "uncomfortable work"     How is your self care doing?  Is there something you can "do" when you starting thinking and feeling weird about the relationship?  Walk?  Do pushups?

Keep up the good work!

Best,

FF

[once removed]

Part of me thinks that by this time, she should be able to tell whether she wants to continue or not… And if she’s indecisive, I almost feel like considering starting to look elsewhere.

youve mentioned this previously. do you think its a bit of a defense mechanism?

[formflier]

Remember...a core part of what a pwBPD "lives with" are rapidly changing feelings.

In addition, many pwBPD are so "emotion based" that their feelings drive the way the perceive the world.  "Feelings = facts".

Last:  Sometimes those feelings are so intense they have a hard time remembering anything else.  So if today they think you are an azzhole...it's simply impossible for them to remember/imagine that yesterday you were their knight in shining armor.

I say all this to remind you that she will be "figuring out how she feels"...for a long time.

Your most helpful role in this is to remain "chill"..."neutral"..."accepting"..."non-reactive".  Once "it all comes out" and especially if it all comes out without you going nuclear...they will start to "know" on a more fundamental level that you are a safe person for their feelings and that will help their feelings "swing less"..which helps them feel safer...which helps their feelings swing less..(wash rinse repeat).

No..BPD never gets "cured" this way...but it and its affects on a relationship become much more manageable.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Thank you guys for words of encouragement…

I’m doing OK right now, but I do have a sense of worry that this girl will just constantly be spiking like this.  Just like she says about me, I shake my head at the thought that this just might be what I have to manage if I continue with her… Split after split about every six weeks, or so. And I just don’t know how to manage this any better.

I guess I don’t feel as much optimism as you guys seem to have, and I’m wondering if I am really where I need to be with her at this point.

I pick up on little clues, and most of the time, as it is with other people as well, I usually interpret those clues fairly accurately.  For example, usually, upon parting after we have had a good time, we will both talk about what our next bunch of days look like and when we will get together next. I did ask her what her next bunch of days looked like, in order to get a sense of what our plans might be… but she uncharacteristically didn’t really give any insight as to when we might see each other next, other than to say “we will talk soon”.

I’m trying to handle that kind of thing by not making too much of a big deal about it, but I have no idea if and when I will see her again, and whether that open ended response was due to some thing that I might’ve said that made her feel uncomfortable. I just never know with her. It could be almost anything I say that is taken out of context, or made to be a much different story than it really was. I’ve seen that time after time after time. I never know what to expect and what to say.  Of course, this may all be due to my heightened sensitivity, considering a year and 2/3 of this kind of splitting.

Even though our texting correspondences had been getting a little bit back to normal in the last few days, it feels like she’s kind of pulling away again.  It’s only been 24 hours since I’ve seen her, but I’m getting a little clues… often times, she texts in the evenings on Thursday and wishes for me to have a good night. Silence. This morning, I wished her good morning when she was at work, and sent her a photo of a breakfast that I was having from the same place that we had breakfast yesterday, and with her knowing that I would’ve had to travel a fair amount out of my way to get there… Typically, her reply would be that she would ask me why I was over there, and give me a hard time about eating a high calorie breakfast twice in a row.  Her response this time around, very atypically, was “enjoy“. That was it. No “Hope you’re having a good morning“ or “what in the heck were you doing there two days in a row?“.

Of course, all of this is likely in my head, and she may have been going nuts at work, after having a day off from her chaotic job as an emergency room nurse practitioner. I know I need to give her lots of slack there.  “Enjoy“ just almost seems like a blow off perfunctory response.

So, what’s the point of this self-indulgent long winded post? My head is just going back-and-forth as to what to do next.

Given that her response to my text this morning seemed almost impersonal, I figure one strategy would be to wait for her to get back to me, but I fear if I do that, she may think that I am splitting on her, and get upset. I think I’ve seen that multiple times in the past.  However, there could be positive strategy in that, trying to set a boundary that if she answers something with a vague text, maybe it should be up to her to reach out next?

I think I know what I have to do. I have to continue living my life, as if she is not in it, whether she is or is not part of it. That’s not always easy to do, when I live mostly in isolation, with not a lot of people around. I suspect you guys hear this all the time on here.

Given that it’s clear that this girl is still wishy-washy on what and is up, do I continue giving her lots of space, and perhaps not text her again this afternoon to ask her how her day has been going, like I normally would… Or should I maybe check in with her this afternoon?

[once removed]

Given that her response to my text this morning seemed almost impersonal, I figure one strategy would be to wait for her to get back to me, but I fear if I do that, she may think that I am splitting on her, and get upset. I think I’ve seen that multiple times in the past.  However, there could be positive strategy in that, trying to set a boundary that if she answers something with a vague text, maybe it should be up to her to reach out next?

just read her. i think shes just telling you to do less of this.

youre pushing for texts and i love yous and signs that her interest is renewed. it isnt, yet, necessarily.

renew her interest by focusing on showing her a good time, and attracting her.

[Mr. Kelly]

Yeah, her “interest“ seems to go up and down with the wind, and with her whims.  I am getting a bit weary.

I don’t know what to do with her. This is the first day since Wednesday that we haven’t been really talking normally, and I can’t really say why.

Do I check in with her and see how she’s doing, or let her come to me? I suspect if I don’t reach out to her she may be annoyed, thinking that she always had to be the one to make contact, even though I did so this morning, and she didn’t seem too interested and following up.

What to do?

[formflier]

Don't chase...so give it a day or two. 

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

Don't chase...so give it a day or two. 

Best,

FF

That’s kind of what I was thinking, but that’s unusual for me to not reach out in some form, multiple times per day, when things are going well.

For all I know, she could be stewing that I haven’t reached out more today, and I know without a doubt that she is wondering why, or thinking about it.

Why she hasn’t reached out, in turn, is a bit perplexing. 

It’s very difficult. For a couple of days, it seem things are going in a really good direction, and then suddenly, she goes cold again. That just seems so strange.

There is the fireworks thing this coming Monday, so if worse comes to worse, I’ll invite her to that, although that’s three days away.

So, you really think that not reaching out to her is a good strategy, right about now?

[Mr. Kelly]

I’m starting to look for reasons why I should even be putting energy into this relationship. This girl seems incapable of sustaining it. 

She told me the other day she is still harboring mistrust about something stupid that happened 11 months ago, once again saying that the whole interaction was completely my fault, and saying she can’t get past it. I supposedly “threw her out“ at 3 AM in the morning, and yes, I have owned my part in it, and I did strongly suggest that she leave at that point, after her declaring that we were pretty much done… But then I pretty much begged her to stop and talk about it and try to come to an understanding, which she refused, as she was calling me every name in the book and packing her things. I even followed her all the way downstairs and outside and stood in front of her car door telling her she didn’t need to do this and to please stop and try to resolve it. No way.  Yet, I still “threw her out“, and she still brings up the fact that I didn’t call her to make sure she got home all right, even despite that her parting words were to never contact her again.

How can someone behave like that and not remember their own part in it?

I don’t know about this. I’m starting to think maybe she is right, and that it is damaged beyond repair.  I can’t keep doing this up-and-down thing, with her seeming OK, and then disappearing again. It just hurts.

[formflier]

She told me the other day she is still harboring mistrust about something stupid that happened 11 months ago, once again saying that the whole interaction was completely my fault, and saying she can’t get past it. I supposedly “threw her out“ at 3 AM in the morning, and yes, I have owned my part in it, and I did strongly suggest that she leave at that point, after her declaring that we were pretty much done… 

So..I need some clarity here.  Did this discussion happen since the most recent "get back together".  (as in the past week or two?)

The "event" the discussion is about was how long ago?

How did this recent discussion come up?  How did it end (this most recent time)?

What was the total time of the most recent discussion? 

How much "he said she said" can you give us?

Hopefully we can pull some areas for advice out of this.

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

So..I need some clarity here.  Did this discussion happen since the most recent "get back together".  (as in the past week or two?)

The "event" the discussion is about was how long ago?

How did this recent discussion come up?  How did it end (this most recent time)?

What was the total time of the most recent discussion? 

How much "he said she said" can you give us?

Hopefully we can pull some areas for advice out of this.

Best,

FF

Thanks FF…

When she slept over on Tuesday night, when her grandson was here, and I listened to her talk for a while, one of the things that she said was that she still is having a hard time getting past that “incident“ that happened early last September.  She says she still having a hard time trusting me.

She brings that occasion up every time we have broken up, including this time.

Overall, we probably spoke for a few hours, and it seemed very positive and reinforcing. I used a lot of positive reinforcement, I talked a lot about how the effects of trauma may be getting in the way, especially for me… Etc. We talked about trust, which is what we talked about a few weeks ago when she split the last time. It seemed to be a productive conversation, and we seemed to go to sleep fairly at peace, as if things were heading in a good direction, or so it seemed.  I don’t remember if we made any declarations that we were still going to move forward, but that was the impression I certainly got.

Then, we had a nice morning right after that, made the kids breakfast, then she sped off to work fairly happy.

On Thursday morning, we went for a walk with my kid, and my kid took off for about a half an hour and we pretty much only talked about her work and her financial situation.

I was giving her some feedback, although somewhat vague, when she was talking about her retirement situation… I did express a wish that she might be able to get more out of her retirement situation than she may be. I wonder if she felt that was condescending somehow… That’s the only thing that was even discussed that may have been interpreted as negative.

Other than that, when she left, she said it was a lovely walk, told me to have a good band practice that night, and said we would talk soon. There was nothing negative expressed at our parting…. She seemed like she was in a good space.

I texted her the next morning, wished her good morning, and mentioned I was at the same restaurant as the day before, and her only response was “enjoy“, which seemed rather dismissive.

Could me not texting her again yesterday, or calling her yesterday, be perceived as me not following up and pursuing the reconciliation?  I’ve mentioned before that she constantly says she expects the man to be the one that fights for the relationship. Wouldn’t surprise me if she is expecting me to fight harder than she thinks I am. I think she has elements of narcissism thrown in there, as well, if I can be annoying enough to say that.

What do you think might be going on with this girl? Maybe that Tuesday night late not talk is still reverberating and making her feel lack of trust and interest in moving forward?

I can assure you, when we were doing well, we would have already had plans for her to come over on a weekend like this when she has several evenings off in a row. This seems like another statement.

[Mr. Kelly]

I forgot some of the he said she said…

She started her talk by saying that she had been thinking prior to our last stretch of silence, which was the prior week, that she had been struggling going back-and-forth with confusion about the relationship.

She said it was coming from the late night talk we had had a few weeks earlier, and which I was telling her that I needed to be honest about her Nasty break up texts from all the other occasions. I think I’ve already told you all about that. She said that my insistence for her to look at those texts as being negative and hostile invalidates all of her reasoning as to why she was breaking up each time.

She said she doesn’t trust me, and fears that the relationship is just going to be going up and down, with me pushing her away by invalidating her feelings during splits, and arguing with her about politics, and then we always get back together and it’s great for a while, until she says she fears it’s me that pushes her away.

There have definitely been times where I think that she has a point, and I have ruffled her feathers a bit, maybe to test her loyalty… But I don’t really think I have been doing that for quite a while. Certainly since I’ve been learning more about BPD.

Yes, we did talk about politics about a month ago, but I thought it was a gentle conversation, and it didn’t seem to ruffle her feathers at all, and I mentioned this time around that I do like to talk about politics, but I would just prefer to be able to talk about it without it getting heated. I said that to her last Tuesday night.

Anyway, I did use my own description of my own trauma affects, and how they sometimes distort my thinking, And cause some black and white splitting… And I was saying that to hopefully open up some channels of thought for her that maybe that’s what was happening with her as well. I didn’t accuse her of anything, that’s for sure. I may have implied that her trauma background may be interfering with her levels of trust. I think she knows that.  I am not sure how much this whole conversation, in terms of trauma, has much to do with what is happening right now, but I can’t really tell.

We talked about specific events that happened, like me throwing her out at 3 AM, and me getting a dog for my 13-year-old daughter and partnering with my ex-wife to help that happen, which she feels I should’ve talked with her about and not partnered with my ex-wife. I may have explained that one before, but she felt very slighted by that.

One element of contention during our talk on Tuesday was the dog. Typically, she says that no one that she talks to about any of these circumstances doesn’t agree exactly with what she is saying… it was narcissistic for me to throw her out of the house that night, and no one should be partnering to get a dog for their daughter with their ex-wife.

I felt I needed to be honest with her, and I told her that nobody that I talked with said that it was anybody’s business except for my ex-wife and me whether we got a dog for my daughter or not. Even my therapist said it’s not my girlfriends business what my ex-wife and I agree on regarding getting a dog for my daughter.

I have said to her several times that I regret not speaking to her about it before it happened, but it literally happened within several hours. My ex-wife called me and told me that someone had a dog that needed to be rehomed, and that they were a bunch of people thinking about it, so we had to act fast, and the dog was adorable, so we went over there that night and brought him home.  I did not talk to my girlfriend before going over there, so she feels hugely slighted about that.

The dog has been a fabulous addition to our family, and my girlfriend knows this, but still sees that dog is a product of a deal that I struck with my ex-wife to get him, because I would have never been able to get a dog on my own.  my ex-wife said if there were any vet bills that she would contribute to them. That’s really the only way I could’ve taken on a dog.  I think my girlfriend feels that I am to allegiant to my ex-wife, and has said numerous times that she thinks I will hop skip and jump anytime my ex-wife says anything. Thankfully, my girlfriend hasn’t really said that recently, because I believe it’s not true. My ex-wife and I do well together as friends, and as partners with our daughter. That’s pretty much it. Many of our earlier splits involved her lack of trust regarding my ex-wife.

There is another area that we talked about last Tuesday that has come up before, but not as much recently… She doesn’t trust what I say to other people regarding our relationship. She knows I confide in a bunch of people, but she thinks that I say things that are untrue, and things that are skewed by my own bias.  She said she believes it’s important for me to have one or two friends that I talk to about this stuff, but she doesn’t like when I talk to lots of people about it, and specifically my ex-wife.

There have been times in the past where I have told my ex-wife a lot of the details about how my girlfriend has broken up with me, and the nasty things that she has said, and I have felt at least some confidence that my ex-wife handles it appropriately, given that she’s a fairly good person, and she usually has a good perspective on things.

My girlfriend was completely livid when she learned I was talking to my ex-wife about the situation, and she maybe right.  My girlfriend fears that there may be people that I talk to about this stuff that we use the information to come back and cause harm in someway in the future… She is a bit paranoid in that regard, because of past experiences… I assure her that I trust the people that I talk to 1,000,000%, and I believe that that would never happen. She’s not so convinced.

  I haven’t really talked with my ex-wife much about my girlfriend recently, partly because I have this community I can use to vent, and also because I have a personal therapist that I talk to about it, so I have felt much less need. I think my girlfriend trusts this as being true, so it wasn’t a central theme of our last couple of late night talks. I was reassuring that I wasn’t talking to people nearly as much, and she seemed to believe it.

I can’t really think of anything else that we spoke about that night other than the former troubling events, her feeling like I was invalidating her feelings, and trust. That was pretty much it.

[Mr. Kelly]

So… Do you think it would be proactive to just reach out today and say hi? She’s working all day, so she’ll be busy…

It’s very possible she’s just stressed out from work, and she has been more so than usual over the last month… That could be pushing her to just want to avoid thinking about our situation.

In the past, it was almost expected that I would reach out and say hi during the day. That was just a protocol.

What to do… What to do…?  My lack of correspondence will be significantly noticed.

[Mr. Kelly]

Update…

OK, so there is some good news… She texted me just now. It’s not warm and fuzzy, but she at least reached out… It just read:

Her:  Hello..hope you are well ..and not swept  away  in the rain yesterday..at work sucks..slow moving day despite business. Enjoy your day.

Me:  I sent a funny meme with the scene of palm trees being whipped sideways by wind and rain, and I wrote “only thing missing are the palm trees!“

Her:  yup.

Me:  where are you working today?

Her: at the main ER.

Me:  sent a meme of a pile of blueberries and I said, “Would you eat a quart of blueberries? I'm going to put on my rubber boots and go brave the wet and pick some.”

Her: I wouldn’t eat a quart, but I hope you have a good pick.

End

What do you think?

I agree with what you guys have been saying… She’s just confused. I’m playing it fairly loosely right now, which you guys have suggested. Does this exchange give you any insights as to where to go with it?

Would it be too forceful to ask her if she wants to get a bite to eat at a new farm restaurant later today when she’s done with work?

The alternative is to invite her out for fireworks on Monday, like I botched for last week…

Thoughts?

[formflier]

I'd like to pivot the discussion a bit.

From everything I read, it sounds like your discussions (at least your part of them) is more "chill"...less "reactive".  Fair assessment?

I think if you can keep that going and add in a healthy dose of boundaries, you have the makings of a solid relationship foundation.  Dysfunction might give way to "eccentric".

How does that sound?

Article about boundaries

Can you read the article a few times, then perhaps try to apply it to some of your last posts.

Like this  "Based on the boundaries article I should have talked about X and I should not have talked about Y"

Maybe some reasoning behind that based on what you have read.

Standing by on this end!  Keep up the good work.

Best,

FF

[once removed]

What to do?

work to get centered.

i say this gently, and to help: you are all over the place.

these relationships require a lot of patience, and a lot of strength.

the circumstance itself requires little more than playing it cool.

I don’t know what to do with her. This is the first day since Wednesday that we haven’t been really talking normally, and I can’t really say why.

Do I check in with her and see how she’s doing, or let her come to me? I suspect if I don’t reach out to her she may be annoyed, thinking that she always had to be the one to make contact, even though I did so this morning, and she didn’t seem too interested and following up.

Could me not texting her again yesterday, or calling her yesterday, be perceived as me not following up and pursuing the reconciliation?

your relationship is not in this place right now. she, herself, is not in this place.

youve got to read her. her indifference to your texts is not a sign to do more. its not a sign that she is losing interest in you as a person. its not a sign that she is stewing.

its a sign to pull it back. its a sign that she isnt interested in it as an approach. no more, no less.

you arent going to reconcile or rebuild your relationship with pleasant text exchanges. your relationship isnt going to (and shouldnt) go from 0-60 via pleasant text exchanges.

I’m starting to look for reasons why I should even be putting energy into this relationship. This girl seems incapable of sustaining it.
...
I don’t know about this. I’m starting to think maybe she is right, and that it is damaged beyond repair.  I can’t keep doing this up-and-down thing, with her seeming OK, and then disappearing again. It just hurts.

do you notice that when you get anxious, you do two things:

1. decide that theres something more you need to do
2. get hurt and angry - decide maybe she/the relationship just arent worth it (this is splitting at a basic level)

thats not a judgment. when im anxious, im a mess. i do all of the same things.

the point is to recognize it and pay attention to it in real time. to learn constructive responses to it. to pull from new tools you incorporate into your toolbelt.

can you see this? do you see it differently?

What to do?

1. above all, learn to find your emotional center and act (or not) from it. learn to self soothe (and by that, i dont mean with an absence of support). realize that uncomfortable feelings are not always something we need to act on, but learn constructive ways to cope with.

2. see the relationship and the circumstances for what they are. read her. if something isnt working, do less of it. recalibrate your expectations realistically.

3. place less emphasis and significance on text exchanges, and more on planning fun, carefree get togethers.

4. be cool. be confident. you have every reason to - things are going great.

make sense?

[Mr. Kelly]

Hi all…

I did OK last night, after having a day of feeling pretty crappy and kind of depressed.

I tried to reach outside my comfort zone and found things to do to keep busy, and played music most of the night, which was very cathartic.

So, I felt like I needed to text her last night to get a idea as to whether or not she was still thinking of coming over after work today… So I sent her a brief text, likely so she doesn’t think what she did last time, and that I didn’t text her to check in about our plans for tomorrow. She would be getting up in the morning and having to plan what to bring with her, so I thought it was relevant to reach out.

After receiving the text, she called me out of the blue, which was nice. She sounded like she was in a good space… All nice. Then we decide on a plan that she’ll come over tomorrow/today after work, and she’ll go for a run while I ride my bike with her, or walk somewhere, simultaneously. She seemed very up for that idea.

I also was very enthusiastic about her coming to fireworks tomorrow, and she seemed to like the idea.

All good. Except. I encouraged her to call me on her way to work this morning, since she has a 40 minute drive, and at the end of the call she said, “I’ll call you on my way to work tomorrow“.

No surprise. No call. Of course, I encouraged it to be open ended and said “if you feel like calling me on your ride to work tomorrow…“

I can’t help but feel that this has been happening more and more, and I don’t quite get it. In my world, if you tell someone you’re going to call them, you pretty much do it. I also can’t help feeling that there is a bit of a message in this… Which is… “I’m still confused about how I feel, so this is my message to you to keep you a little bit at arm’s length, so you don’t think things are back the way they were before.”  I find that a little bit annoying. On the other hand, she just may not of felt like talking, but that’s fairly unusual for her. Until recently, she never didn’t call when she said she would.

This will bother me this morning, hopefully only a little bit, because it makes me feel that I’m having a hard time counting what she says is what she’ll do.  I could be thinking, which I am, that I will see her later on today, and that it is no big deal. Maybe she was just tired and cranky. She has every right to be.

Who knows, though…  maybe there is a chance she’s going to change her plan for after her work tonight?  It’s possible she woke up this morning and started to think about the plan, which seems to imply she’ll be staying over tonight and sleeping here, although that wasn’t specifically agreed-upon, but inferred. I don’t even know if or how to bring it up with her. I know if I tell her, “I want you to do only what you want to do.  if you are not comfortable staying over, I want you to be comfortable and do what you need to do. I’ll be fine.“ I don’t think she likes it when I say stuff like that, but I don’t really know.  Part of me doesn’t want her to stay over if she’s not really psyched about doing it. Am I over analyzing?

At least I feel much more positive than I did yesterday. Amazing how small gestures can bring me up, and little avoidances can pull me even further down.

That brings me to the thought of what you guys were asking yesterday… About how I ground myself or center myself.  I often know what I could do to feel better, but I often feel too depressed and unmotivated to do it. I know if I play music, or exercise, or do something invigorating, I feel better. Instead, I end up doing self-destructive things, and it feels like a form of self punishment. I will eat something that is great in the moment, but I know will make me feel like crap later, or I will drink a ton of coffee, knowing that I will have two or three hours of awesome buzzing, but because I have a profound caffeine intolerance/allergy that will make me feel like PLEASE READ for the next day and a half, but I still do it.  I have a caffeine and sugar addiction… Which is hugely self-destructive.

Sometimes, when I do these things, I almost envision myself pushing a knife into my gut, almost as if I do these things to punish myself. Many people, and including my lady friend, say that if drinking coffee and eating ice cream is my self punishment of choice, then it could be a lot worse.

However, I often get so sick afterwards, and I think I’m driving myself towards diabetes, since my numbers have been chronically high over the last 10 years, and I feel like my body is probably so filled with inflammation that it can’t be good for my overall health.  Both my therapist and my doctor pretty much just say, “stop doing these things“. Not hugely helpful.

So, I watch video after video about trauma and borderlines and narcissism, and my therapist, one of about six I have had over the last 30 years, never seem to be able to budge some of the self-destructive tendencies that I have, and what they believe is a negative thinking.

Mind you, I am much better off today than I was a handful of years ago, so I often look at the positives, as much as the negatives. As for my lady friend, at least in the last month, there have been a lot of negatives, hence, my long winded posts on here… :-)

There was even the thought yesterday that maybe I should just end this relationship, or put it on a semi permanent hold, because I felt so unhealthy, both physically and mentally, yesterday, that I thought maybe it’s best if I start thinking about myself more and kicking myself into gear.

I always do better with the hope that maybe there is someone out there that I can connect with in a healthy way, and I always seem to do worse when my current situation goes downhill.  I guess when my current situation is good, it’s really good, and I feel great, but when it’s bad, I get pulled down with it, which I don’t think it’s sustainable much longer.

As I may have said at some point previously, I tend to identify my happiness with how my relationship status is, and that’s not sustainable either, but I’ve been that way since I was a small child and had my first crush on a third grader, who barely knew I existed. And then she got struck by a car out on the street in front of her house. At the risk of being graphic, we heard the screech of tires, and after a few minutes we went down and saw the aftermath of her contorted bicycle, and a large pool of blood running into the drain. She survived without major catastrophe, but it still brings back fairly traumatic thoughts just thinking about it… I have zero idea why I just told that story, by the way…

[formflier]

So..here is my take on the "non call" after you encouraged the possibility.

I take it as a signal that she has a busy life/lots to think about.  Perhaps..Perhaps I take it as "enough chasing".

Why not enjoy the fireworks with her and it appears there are other plans for bike ride/run.

Enjoy those..stay in the moment, don't worry about the future.

I would encourage you to let her make plans for the "next time".  Maybe you let her chase you for a bit.

How would you say that to her? 

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

So..here is my take on the "non call" after you encouraged the possibility.

I take it as a signal that she has a busy life/lots to think about.  Perhaps..Perhaps I take it as "enough chasing".

Why not enjoy the fireworks with her and it appears there are other plans for bike ride/run.

Enjoy those..stay in the moment, don't worry about the future.

I would encourage you to let her make plans for the "next time".  Maybe you let her chase you for a bit.

How would you say that to her? 

Best,

FF

I am trying to do all those things, but I keep getting a little “signals“ that she’s trying to keep me at arms length.

So, she texts me out of the blue from work yesterday just to say hi… Last night I text to check in and to solidify plans, and she seems great. She said she’ll call me on the way to work, at my suggestion. She doesn’t.

This morning, late in the morning, I sent her a good morning meme, and she doesn’t reply. I can see by messenger notifications that she has been checking Facebook. At work. But she Doesn’t have it in her to answer my good morning meme?

That says to me that she is once again ambivalent, perhaps about the plans that we made for her to come over today. Yes, I’m probably reading way more into it, but why do I want to keep doing this to myself?

I have a friend that continuously tells me I shouldn’t be letting her walk on me like this. Of course, I could be creating a lot of this in my own head, so my plan is to wait until she’s nearly done with work and then check in with her again (which is what I caught wrath about nearly a month and a half ago for not doing under completely similar circumstances).

Back then, I figured if she wasn’t getting back to me, there must have been a reason, and I was right. She was struggling. She’s probably struggling again today for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with me. Not getting back to me today seems to be some sort of sign, or at least could be.  Her being on Facebook tells me it’s not a lack of time or effort.

[Mr. Kelly]

Oh, as far as making plans go… She doesn’t really make plans. She has never made a plan since I have known her, other than to meet her friends for dinner or wine. Zero else. That’s her life. Work, or out with friends for dinner and wine.

Every single event, outing, trip, get together, other than for her to just come over to my house… Has been completely my arrangement.

I will ask her what she wants to do, and if she has any idea, and her response… Every. Single. Time. Is that she doesn’t care and she’ll do whatever I arrange.

I suspect that is because she is so far inside of her own head that she doesn’t want to think about stuff outside of that. She is more reactive, and less planning or strategizing.  I get it, I get like that sometimes too. Still, I’m sick of it.

[Mr. Kelly]

One of my good friends, who has been dealing with a similar situation, thanks that I should just delicately tell her that it hurts my feelings when she tells me that she’s going to do something, and then she doesn’t.

He doesn’t think it’s practical for me to try to understand that confronting her, given where her headspace is, will likely do zero good, other than make her defensive and more likely to split.

He sees this with the girl he has been dating, as well, and he’s just not willing to tolerate it anymore. I’m almost at that point, as well.

[formflier]

One of my good friends, who has been dealing with a similar situation, thanks that I should just delicately tell her that it hurts my feelings when she tells me that she’s going to do something, and then she doesn’t.
 

Look...if you are done with her.  Then be done with this.

I don't think you are done with her.  I do think this new way of "doing" relationships is very uncomfortable for you.

I think others have said this, maybe I did as well.  Change is hard.  It's going to feel "weird".  You are going to "want to be done with it" so you can get back to the old feelings..."normal".

I'm not saying there is NEVER going to be a time when you can share "hurt feelings" with her.  

I'm also not saying that I agree or disagree that your feelings "should be hurt" by this..or they shouldn't.  (hint..I'm leaning more towards "toughening you up"...but I really haven't thought that through much..so hold that "lightly").

I will say this...FOR SURE.  

I can't imagine you trying to convey "hurt feelings" to her right now (or in the next month)..."going well".

Your best play is to live your life.  Let her call...or not call.  You move right on along with your life..and ENJOYING your life.  When she chooses to be part of it..that's a bonus.

When she chooses (or life just happens) and she can't be part of it..she can't call..she can't (fill in the blank)...you just move right on along and live your life.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Every single event, outing, trip, get together, other than for her to just come over to my house… Has been completely my arrangement.

I will ask her what she wants to do, and if she has any idea, and her response… Every. Single. Time. Is that she doesn’t care and she’ll do whatever I arrange.
 

So..is there a possibility...even the possibility that she hasn't made plans, because you haven't given space for her to do so.

What if you made plans for her to come by your house and pick you up in her car, next Friday at 6pm.  You hop in the car and announce you are looking forward to spending time with her..whatever she decides to do.

See how you "halfway" filled it in? 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I am trying to do all those things, but I keep getting a little “signals“ that she’s trying to keep me at arms length.
 

I wonder how it would go if you made a conscious decision to "ignore" the signals for a month. 

Every time you brain starts to ruminate on a "signal"...I want you to say outloud  "NOPE...not going there."  (and then do something else)

What would you do with all that brainspace?

Best,

FF

[Mr. Kelly]

So..is there a possibility...even the possibility that she hasn't made plans, because you haven't given space for her to do so.

What if you made plans for her to come by your house and pick you up in her car, next Friday at 6pm.  You hop in the car and announce you are looking forward to spending time with her..whatever she decides to do.

See how you "halfway" filled it in? 

Best,

FF

No… There’s no chance that I haven’t given her space to do that. In fact, I have a hard time making plans, since I often can’t think that far ahead, and she gets irritated and unsettled if there’s not something already planned, or if I can’t come up with a plan.  She expects her man to make all the plans. It’s a copout, but it is what it is. Half the time, she doesn’t really wanna do anything outside the box, except for go to the restaurant and drink wine with her friends. That’s all she really has in mind to do almost ever.

I’ve taken her to theater, And concerts… And I’ve taken her on weekend outings, and we walk through various towns regularly… She wouldn’t be doing those things on her own, I doubt. Neither would her friends.  She will barely go to a new restaurant, because she only likes the restaurants that she’s already been to… Unless it’s for the exact food she likes. She won’t think outside the box. I have a hard time getting her to do things outside the box. She’s fairly calculated.

I took her to Arizona last summer, and all I hear about it to this day is that we spent a lot of time in the beautiful town In which I was married 15 Years ago, even though it was her and my daughter that didn’t really wanna travel anywhere else, once we got to that town. This day I still hear her complain about it.  She thinks I was subconsciously pining to go there to revisit my former days with my ex, which couldn’t have been further from the truth.

I think if she came here and I said I was willing to do whatever she wanted to do, she would get agitated and not know how to deal with it.

Well, I guess this new way of seeing this relationship, as you are suggesting, doesn’t really feel like a real relationship, nor does it feel like a partnership. If this is what I should be expecting, and that’s what you are saying, I think I would be better off healing from this and trying to look for someone that may be a better fit.

I don’t want to give up on this girl, but I don’t feel that I have any choice.  It’s either to continue going up and down like this, given that I want more for myself than a part time, sometimes In and sometimes out, girlfriend. I don’t think any sane person would want that. Well, unless they don’t really care whether they’re in a relationship or not, which I do.

She has said a bunch of times recently that she doesn’t really care that whether or not she’s in a relationship, and that she chooses to be in one because she wants to be, yet then she picks the crap out of things that I do that that she manufactures in her head, and the roller coaster continues to go up and down.  That’s no way for anyone to live, unless you really want to live that way, and I really don’t.

[once removed]

i had a gal break up with me once because i wasnt showing her enough fun. not taking her out to romance her. she was bored.

i suppose i figured shed let me know if she wanted to do something. im a homebody. im not super spontaneous.

people just differ in these ways. its a legitimate difference, and incompatibility if it arises to that point.

a lot of men get frustrated with a lack of interest (real or perceived) from someone they are pursuing. wringing ones hands of it is valid. alternatively, one can put more effort into making themselves more attractive to that person (and carefully understanding what that means to that person). a member here had a really flaky girlfriend and he was getting frustrated with it, thought about exiting the picture, decided hed try making himself more attractive to her.

im speaking kind of generally here; there are two issues really. i think your gal is interested in you, and that you need to focus on attracting her. the other is that she doesnt think of stuff to do or try to plan things with you, and you wish she did.

there are ways to voice that, and doing so is generally the best thing. there are ways to incentivize it, too. but theres no guarantee that person will change. had the girl i referred to been clearer (im sure, in her own way, she tried) about what she wanted me to do, id have definitely tried to give her that. i dont know if i would have met her expectations.

you have, what sounds like, kind of a boring girlfriend, in that way. that can be a deal breaker, or she could be the opposite of boring in lots of other ways that you love, or she makes up for it in other ways that you love. its all personal, and its all valid, really. but i wouldnt expect it to change dramatically. its like if you have a girlfriend who is majorly unfunny and you really want her to start telling jokes around you. 

About how I ground myself or center myself.

i think a large part of it is remembering that the way we feel about what someone else is doing, or not doing, is not necessarily an accurate representation of how they feel or whats going on in their mind. its a very human tendency, though for some (myself included) more than others. its a form of projection. the difference is whether we can separate ourselves from our projections. when we are upset about something, its harder. but just being mindful helps.

I am trying to do all those things, but I keep getting a little “signals“ that she’s trying to keep me at arms length.

think of it as getting signals that what you are doing is either too much too soon, or not the right approach. they arent a rejection of you as a person. its "this thing im doing (the texting, i think, being a good example) isnt connecting". confidence is really being able to see that for what it is, and let it roll off your back, as opposed to taking it as a slight (there are, of course, slights that you should not let roll off your back).

there have been a lot of points where you were thinking that this or that might be going on in her head. it just by and large hasnt seemed to be the case or reflected where shes at with it all. shes been pretty predictable, and in a way that has worked to your favor.

she has also met you half way, in lots of ways. she was the one that brought up the talk. she contacted you/called you.

men just arent often all that great at reading women. we tend to project our own tendencies onto them (they do so as well). where im sitting, its a lot easier for us to see that youre pretty much in the kings chair here.

[Mr. Kelly]

Love your responses… Hard to make heads or tails out of a lot of it.

I don’t feel like I am in the King’s chair, so to speak. I feel like I am at the whim of this girl’s mental chaos. That doesn’t feel good to me, particularly when I have repeatedly experienced the good things that she offers, as well as the downsides.

This is the only time since I have known her that it has been strangely gray… Neither in or out. Previously, when she was out, she was out… but when she was in, she was in.  This is much different, and I don’t handle it well.

I feel that I have always been pretty good at entertaining her… Although, I don’t have a very colorful life. She doesn’t seem to need much, other than companionship and trust. She lacks the trust right now, for whatever reason she sees fit. I can’t seem to budge that.

I do see how my little breadcrumbs for her have been somewhat working, but then as soon as things seem to be leveling off, she just seems to back away again, which I do know probably has very little to do with me, personally. I do take it personally, though. Each and every time I feel sucker punched. As if I should know better than to be sucked back into believing that may be she will be back to the person that I know when things are going well. I feel like such a sucker for letting myself get sucked back into this time and time again.

[formflier]

I feel like I am at the whim of this girl’s mental chaos. 

Yep...you are.

This isn't a "yes or no" to chaos.  Really...you need to think of it as "more or less".

Once Removed nailed it with the expecting an introverted nonfunny chick to all of a sudden be a stand up comedian...(might have taken that a bit further than he intended..but you get the point)


Two big picture things I would like you to focus on.

What it takes to be in one of these relationships

Read this a few times, even if you have read it before.

I'm also wondering if you can take a couple weeks off from "deciding".  It's really hard to put  my finger on.  "Deciding" might not be the best word..maybe "evaluating" is better.

Anyway...what if you stopped wondering about the relationship for a few weeks.  Seriously.  Put a "date" on the calendar for just you.  Commit to just enjoying the time you have with her AND enjoying the time without her (even if your alone time comes from her disappearing).

Then when your date comes..be deliberate about considering if this r/s is worth more or less of your time.  Serious..stay away from "in" and "out"...I hope you can find "nuance" and stay away from "dichotomous".

Best,

FF