She defends herself against validation?

[jedimaster]

I had an interesting evening with my uBPDw last night.  Out of the blue she texts and asks if I'd like to go to the movies.  Her gf's had all canceled on their girls' night out so her plans had changed.  She even offered to see the new Hobbit movie, when normally all she likes are romantic comedies.  So I took it as a hopeful sign and agreed to go. 

On the whole we had a pleasant evening and she was a good sport about making a real effort to enjoy the movie.  On the way to and from, she started a very strange conversation about our r/s.  We have had some very intense discussions and arguments recently and she was trying to bring us back around to some of those issues.  I did not JADE at any time and the whole conversation was actually quite calm and low-key.  But the whole episode was an exercise in her trying to impose her version of reality on our r/s.  I had told her a while back that ultimately she is responsible for her own inner happiness and until she understood that, nothing I could do on the outside could make her happy.  She completely rejects that, and claims that other people she has talked to think that is ridiculous as well.  She interprets my telling her that as my being unwilling to even try to make her happy, which is not true.  She also claims because I have set some financial boundaries that I am now a poor provider and unwilling to care for her properly.

In her words, until I am willing to own up to these shortcomings and change, our r/s can't possibly get better.  She is again making veiled and not so veiled divorce threats, saying that she knows that someone out there is willing to make her happy if I'm not.

As I said, the whole discussion was emotionally very low-key and I did not JADE.  When I was tempted to, I would simply not respond or take the conversation in a little different direction.

The interesting thing was that when I would try to validate what she was feeling, she refused to allow it.  "It's not about what I feel; it's about what you are not doing for me" was her reply.  She seemed to want surrender, not validation.  I tried my best to be understanding and as validating as she would allow, but I did not come over to her reality.  I've done that over and over, and it accomplishes nothing but validate her false perceptions.  I'm through doing that.

Anybody else have a SO who doesn't want to be validated?

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[Cat Familiar]

The interesting thing was that when I would try to validate what she was feeling, she refused to allow it... .I tried my best to be understanding and as validating as she would allow, but I did not come over to her reality... .Anybody else have a SO who doesn't want to be validated?

My H does a similar thing. I will repeat nearly verbatim what he has just expressed and he will say, "I don't feel that way. You don't know how I feel." In the past, I'd say, "You just said that."

[formflier]

 

My wife is close to that ... but not as bad as it sounds like you have.  See my other topic on validation that I just started.

Interesting that we went to the Hobbit last night as well.  And... had some intense talks on the way there and back.  I think that came to this morning

Sounds like I was able to get in more validation with less protesting.

I was very conscious about zero JADE... .and I tried to format it in SET or SE SE T. 

Very rarely did I just give T

[maxsterling]

This is a tough one  .  I've seen it.  I don't think I would call it a defense or rejection of your validation.  I just think it is a matter of her not wanting the validation at that moment, or not validating your validation   I think pwBPD are always feeling irritated, they think they know what it is and what will solve it.  Sometimes, they want validation.  Sometimes they want an apology or others to admit some fault.  Sometimes they want some kind of action.  The reality - they don't really know what is irritating them or what will solve it - what is really bothering them is probably not what they think is bothering them.  It's up to us to pay attention here and really apply the tools if we want to get to the bottom of it.  When they reject our validation, I think it is because we are validating the wrong thing.  Or maybe we have the wrong tone of voice or facial expression when we are validating their feeling.  Or maybe they just aren't wanting validation at that moment.  If that is the case, quit trying, accept the conversation as emotionally futile, and try and revisit the issue at a later time.

My guess here is that your wife is feeling shame because of her inability to take care of herself and make herself happy.  When you tell her it's up to her to make herself happy, that you can't do that - it is 100% true, and every therapist, self help book, and guide to healthy relationships would tell her that!  Yet when you tell her this, it is invalidating to her.  What she is hearing is "I'm sorry you are unhappy, but you have to make yourself happy, I am not going to do that."  She is hearing you pass the responsibility on to her, which she feels incapable of dealing with.  In that moment, she is feeling shame, feeling like she tries and wants to be happy and independent, yet can't.  So in true BPD fashion, she is looking to you to get her out of her rut.  I think what you need to do here is validate how difficult it is to find happiness on our own amongst lifes's many challenges.  Then maybe you can open her up about what her stressors and challenges are, and remind her over and over that you are here to help her deal with those challenges. 

[formflier]

  what is really bothering them is probably not what they think is bothering them. 

Amen to that

[Cat Familiar]

I don't think I would call it a defense or rejection of your validation.  I just think it is a matter of her not wanting the validation at that moment, or not validating your validation   I think pwBPD are always feeling irritated, they think they know what it is and what will solve it.  Sometimes, they want validation.  Sometimes they want an apology or others to admit some fault.  Sometimes they want some kind of action.  The reality - they don't really know what is irritating them or what will solve it - what is really bothering them is probably not what they think is bothering them.  It's up to us to pay attention here and really apply the tools if we want to get to the bottom of it.  When they reject our validation, I think it is because we are validating the wrong thing.  Or maybe we have the wrong tone of voice or facial expression when we are validating their feeling.  Or maybe they just aren't wanting validation at that moment.  If that is the case, quit trying, accept the conversation as emotionally futile, and try and revisit the issue at a later time.

Sometimes what works is to be overly general, not rephrasing the specifics that he just said, but just offering sympathy--"Oh that must be so hard for you... ." He often can't get enough of that.

[maxsterling]

  what is really bothering them is probably not what they think is bothering them. 

Amen to that

But don't get me wrong - their "grievance of the moment" is not invalid - in their universe, it *is* what is causing their pain.  And it may be something extremely irritating.  I'm just saying that from our perspective, that addressing the "grievance of the moment" tends to never lead anywhere in the long term.  The reason that the grievance of the moment is such a big deal is because of the underlying issue that prevents them from dealing with today's issue on their own and makes it to be much bigger than it needs to be.  So our task is to not invalidate today's issue, while trying to get at the underlying issue and validate that.  Unfortunately, that is much, much easier said than done.  And from my limited experience of just a couple of years, I recognize the underlying issue nearly always has to do with some kind of shame.  So, she may be furious with me for not having a high paying job.  Sure, that is an irritation and a valid source of stress, but the real underlying issue is that she feels shame that she is dependent on me to meet her own needs.

[Cat Familiar]

But don't get me wrong - their "grievance of the moment" is not invalid - in their universe, it *is* what is causing their pain.  And it may be something extremely irritating.  I'm just saying that from our perspective, that addressing the "grievance of the moment" tends to never lead anywhere in the long term.  The reason that the grievance of the moment is such a big deal is because of the underlying issue that prevents them from dealing with today's issue on their own and makes it to be much bigger than it needs to be.  So our task is to not invalidate today's issue, while trying to get at the underlying issue and validate that... .I recognize the underlying issue nearly always has to do with some kind of shame.

Good point. That explains why my H can get so worked up about something seemingly so insignificant. Yesterday's issue was that his financial advisor emailed his tax advisor three out of four documents that wouldn't open. In my world, this would require no emotional involvement--just a quick phone call or email.

[jedimaster]

My guess here is that your wife is feeling shame because of her inability to take care of herself and make herself happy.  When you tell her it's up to her to make herself happy, that you can't do that - it is 100% true, and every therapist, self help book, and guide to healthy relationships would tell her that!  Yet when you tell her this, it is invalidating to her.  What she is hearing is "I'm sorry you are unhappy, but you have to make yourself happy, I am not going to do that."  She is hearing you pass the responsibility on to her, which she feels incapable of dealing with.  In that moment, she is feeling shame, feeling like she tries and wants to be happy and independent, yet can't.  So in true BPD fashion, she is looking to you to get her out of her rut.  I think what you need to do here is validate how difficult it is to find happiness on our own amongst lifes's many challenges.  Then maybe you can open her up about what her stressors and challenges are, and remind her over and over that you are here to help her deal with those challenges. 

I think you are right on target here, max.  She can't make herself happy and she knows it.  For a while she was crowing about how self-sufficient she was and I'd better shape up because she didn't need me for her happiness.  Now I'm supposed to make her happy or I'm not doing my part in the r/s.  I think taking responsibility for her own happiness, success, finances, or anything else terrifies her.  She is multi-talented, yet she undermines anything she does that begins to be successful and blames me for its failure, claiming that I'm jealous of her success and I want her to fail. 

Interesting that you mention the self-help books and therapists.  She claims that her therapists (she's "trying out" three at the moment in order to choose one) are telling her that I'm supposed to be making her happy and I'm not doing my part.  I've learned not to put any stock in anyone she "quotes" as supporting her position.  In talking to mutual friends I have yet to find a single source to back up anything she claims they are saying or that she has told them. 

Fortunately I'm already on BP meds and I exercise, so having to take so much stuff with a huge grain of salt shouldn't hurt me 

[formflier]

Yeah... my wife can be selective on the "advice" she remembers a T giving her or what tools from MC that she uses.


Jedi,

Would be interesting to see what the Ts have to say about the theories your wife is putting out there.  While interesting... .not sure it would be all that productive... .   

[jedimaster]

Yeah... my wife can be selective on the "advice" she remembers a T giving her or what tools from MC that she uses.


Jedi,

Would be interesting to see what the Ts have to say about the theories your wife is putting out there.  While interesting... .not sure it would be all that productive... . 

Indeed it would be interesting, if as you say probably not productive.  I'm not going to pry but I'm definitely going to be listening for any comments that might give me a clue as to what feedback she is really getting.  From reading other posts I'm aware that even a T who suspects BPD is going to try to validate a lot to build trust, and that pwBPD like to interpret that as the T being on their side "against" the SO.  So I'll be curious to see if she brings home any of that.  I've got my box of industrial size salt grains ready for swallowing  

[formflier]

 

I've never met the current T that my wife goes to.  She sought her out on her own... .and I think it is good and healthy for her to have her support system... without me rummaging around in it.

Same for me... .I've got my system... .and don't really invite her in it anymore.

The only thing we do together is MC.

[jedimaster]

I've never met the current T that my wife goes to.  She sought her out on her own... .and I think it is good and healthy for her to have her support system... without me rummaging around in it.

Same for me... .I've got my system... .and don't really invite her in it anymore.

The only thing we do together is MC.

I quite agree and I have no intention of poking around in her business in that area.  I am, however, going to stay mindful of things she says without my asking, with an ear towards what kind of feedback she may be getting.  I told her flatly that my personal T was none of her business and I will respect that  with her.  I'm just going to stick to mindful listening.

At the same time, I'm concerned about some of her behaviors and I'm trying to listen carefully and read between the lines.  I suspect she may not be taking all her medications correctly.  Not meds for mental illness, but meds in general, in particular for hypothyroidism.  She's very particular about having everything in its certain place, and lately there are no maintenance meds in her pill area, just some pain meds for her foot surgery and some vitamins.  I never see her take meds except a daily vitamin and a headache tablet.  She's supposed to be on Topamax for migraines, another med for IBS, and synthroid for hypothyroidism.  If she's not taking those as prescribed, it's going to come back to haunt her.  The Topamax and the synthroid can both have an effect on BPD, I know, so all I can do at present is watch and wait.

[ydrys017]

  And from my limited experience of just a couple of years, I recognize the underlying issue nearly always has to do with some kind of shame.  ... .the real underlying issue is that she feels shame that she is dependent on me to meet her own needs.

In my very limited experience, I believe this to be true as well.  I am so bad at SET that the best I can do is not JADE.  If I am able to remember that whatever the issue of the moment - the underlying motivation of her actions is shame, it helps me stay calm.  Sad, very sad... .

[Olinda]

Shame is definitely underlying most conflicts in my house. And validating that is difficult and tends to make it worse. My uBPD fiancee may not be fully BPD but just have some traits and she is high functioning so when she is in an adult place she is able to state her feelings of shame. The problem is, most of the time she feels I am to blame for her shame and any other feelings too... .

[formflier]

  The problem is, most of the time she feels I am to blame for her shame and any other feelings too... .

So... .how do you validate these feelings... .that you are the blame... .without agreeing with them?

[Grey Kitty]

I suspect she may not be taking all her medications correctly.  Not meds for mental illness, but meds in general, in particular for hypothyroidism.  She's very particular about having everything in its certain place, and lately there are no maintenance meds in her pill area, just some pain meds for her foot surgery and some vitamins.  I never see her take meds except a daily vitamin and a headache tablet.  She's supposed to be on Topamax for migraines, another med for IBS, and synthroid for hypothyroidism.  If she's not taking those as prescribed, it's going to come back to haunt her.  The Topamax and the synthroid can both have an effect on BPD, I know, so all I can do at present is watch and wait.

Hmmm... .this is troubling. Can you think of a way to raise the questions with proper communication tools, rather than an invalidating/nagging/etc. version?

[jedimaster]

I hope to.  I'm working on trying to find an opportunity.  Our son and daughter-in-law are coming over Tuesday and we were planning the menu this evening, so I can make a last minute grocery store run.  She said, "We need to have something with basil in it.  Basil is supposed to be good for migraines.  I want to start trying to handle things naturally."  The conversation moved on so quickly there wasn't a chance to follow up, but that seems to confirm my suspicions that she is self-medicating, or in this case self-unmedicating.

I'm not too concerned if she wants to give herself headaches by treating her migraines herbally.  Her Topamax dosage was actually almost enough to be therapeutic for BPD, but it didn't seem to be helping any.  But the synthroid is another matter.  I don't really know of an herbal supplement that can substitute for hormone replacement.  So if she's off of the synthroid it's going to catch up with her.

I'm going to keep a close eye on her and look for a way to ask her for more details.  I hate to wait until she starts complaining of symptoms, but that may be the only good option.  She watches her weight very carefully and attends Weight Watchers every week.  Last week she put on 3 lbs, which is almost unheard of for her (she has had gastric bypass and has kept her weight steady within a pound or so for a year).  Usually if she has a jump like that she goes right back down, but today she was steady.  So I'm wondering if the low thyroid level may be starting to have an effect.  If she gains any more weight I know she'll be concerned, so I might be able to ask her about it and steer her back toward the meds.

[formflier]

 

Boy... .I think a nice even toned direct question is best.

How much of your thyroid medicine are you taking these days? 

Or something along those lines.

[KateCat]

Would she be willing to google "What happens if I stop taking Synthroid?" She may not be on a full replacement dose, but for those of us who are, the answer can be pretty scary.

[notdownyet]

But the whole episode was an exercise in her trying to impose her version of reality on our r/s.  I had told her a while back that ultimately she is responsible for her own inner happiness and until she understood that, nothing I could do on the outside could make her happy.  She completely rejects that, and claims that other people she has talked to think that is ridiculous as well.  She interprets my telling her that as my being unwilling to even try to make her happy, which is not true.  She also claims because I have set some financial boundaries that I am now a poor provider and unwilling to care for her properly.

In her words, until I am willing to own up to these shortcomings and change, our r/s can't possibly get better.  She is again making veiled and not so veiled divorce threats, saying that she knows that someone out there is willing to make her happy if I'm not.

As I said, the whole discussion was emotionally very low-key and I did not JADE.  When I was tempted to, I would simply not respond or take the conversation in a little different direction.

The interesting thing was that when I would try to validate what she was feeling, she refused to allow it.  "It's not about what I feel; it's about what you are not doing for me" was her reply.  She seemed to want surrender, not validation.  I tried my best to be understanding and as validating as she would allow, but I did not come over to her reality.  I've done that over and over, and it accomplishes nothing but validate her false perceptions.  I'm through doing that.

Anybody else have a SO who doesn't want to be validated?

I can so relate to this situation.

Up until very recently, I’ve been getting this kind of behaviour a lot from my wife, where she distorts what I’m saying so that the meaning completely changes, to fit in with her ugly feelings.  Quite often, she’ll jump in and finish off my sentence, ending it with the most negative/distorted view that she can superimpose onto me.

I’ve come to the conclusion, that this behaviour is just about projection of negative feelings and blame-shifting.  I feel bad, therefore I’m going to look for an external source to pin it to.  Having someone to blame, is sort of a validation in its self.  I often find that she tries to create a lose-lose situation, offering an “either or option”, both of which are negative validations – essentially setting you up for a trap, that’s very easy to walk into.

The matter at hand, I often feel is immaterial, and is just the vehicle being used to make you look like you’re invalidating.

I like how you’ve not caved-in to this BS, and stood your ground.

When possible, I try to be totally transparent about the discussion/argument that’s taking place, side-stepping the topic of the argument.  If she’s projecting negative thinking onto me, I say exactly that, and try to interpret why.  This takes a lot of tact and diplomacy, so as not to come across as patronising, or like I’m regurgitating a BPD counselling text book.

In doing so, it can sometimes help in getting to the heart of the matter, and also exposes her covert tactics in getting me to take blame for her own personal insecurities.  If the tactics don’t work, then she won’t use them again, and is forced to be more open and honest.

That’s the theory anyway.  We’re talking about BPD here, so any approach could be like throwing petrol onto a fire.

[formflier]

Would she be willing to google "What happens if I stop taking Synthroid?" She may not be on a full replacement dose, but for those of us who are, the answer can be pretty scary.

Agreed... .Moselle... .I think consequences of her picking the wrong thing on this are bad enough that there needs to be a clear... .direct... loving... .question.  

I don't think it should be dropped.  

If she starts to dysregulate... .certainly ease off for then... .but then bring it back up.

Remember... .we should not get lost in the FOG... .my guess is that there is some "fear" here about what if I ask wrong... .what if she hears it wrong... .etc etc... . :)on't listen to the fear.

Luckily... .I don't have any thyroid issues.  I have buddies that do... .and the "ride" they had to ride until they go it straightened out and on a level dose... .was horrible.  For them and their families.  

I think you can do this... .and I think it won't be as bad as you thought when you ask.  Unfortunately... .I suspect the answer is not going to be what you want... .and that the drama is not going to be in asking the question... .but getting her to take the correct dose.

Hang in there

[jedimaster]

Thanks FF, I am definitely going to pursue this.  She has almost always been careful with her physical health so this is a bit unusual for her (although not unheard of).  I don't want to get her defensive so I'm treading carefully but I don't plan to let it go on very long.  The idea of looking up "what if I don't take my meds" is a good one. 

[jedimaster]

I suspect she may not be taking all her medications correctly.  Not meds for mental illness, but meds in general, in particular for hypothyroidism.  She's very particular about having everything in its certain place, and lately there are no maintenance meds in her pill area, just some pain meds for her foot surgery and some vitamins.  I never see her take meds except a daily vitamin and a headache tablet.  She's supposed to be on Topamax for migraines, another med for IBS, and synthroid for hypothyroidism.  If she's not taking those as prescribed, it's going to come back to haunt her.  The Topamax and the synthroid can both have an effect on BPD, I know, so all I can do at present is watch and wait.

Well I got some confirmation of my suspicions tonight.  She was feeling a little lightheaded and asked if I would get her some juice or applesauce.  So while taking care of her I asked, ":)id you miss any medicines today?"  She first said "No," then said she has not taken her meds since the first of December.

Her reasoning is that she is afraid that I will "kick her out of the house" and she will be left without insurance and with no money to buy her meds, so she needs to start now learning how to deal without them    I tried to reassure her that no matter what happens to us, I will not suddenly leave her uninsured or in medical need.  I did not go so far as to say we'd never break up (I'm working on that decision), but I tried to reassure her about the insurance in any case.  I also tried to bring her back to the present and say that as of right now, we all have insurance, and not only that but my FSA account just rolled over on the 1st so there's plenty of money available for copays, etc.  But she kept trying to say "But in a few months if you leave or kick me out I'll be left with no insurance and no money until a judge makes you pay."

Her other comments were I don't give her enough money for meds above the allowance for groceries.  Her meds are all generic and most if not all are on the $4.00 list.  We're talking $12-16 a month.  Since I started trying to get our spending under control I have been giving her approximately $1000 per month for groceries and household items.  I don't ask for an accounting and anything she wants to do with it is fine with me. 

When she had surgery in November, we had to scrape hard to come up with the copays and deductibles for it.  I offered some alternative ways but she took the initiative and choice to sell off her prized collection of arts and crafts supplies she had accumulated over 30+ years.  Instead of just doing what she had to raise the money, she sold off everything she could and carted three van loads to the thrift store.  Now she wants to tie her doing without meds to that overreaction, saying since she "had" to do that, she can't be dependent on anyone else for her care. 

I finally told her, in a calm voice, that she is 50 years old and I can't force her to take a pill like she was a child.  But we have insurance, we have a fully loaded FSA, and she understands that she could harm herself by not taking her meds.  And I left it at that.  I don't know what else to do.  I imagine she will have to wait until she has some symptoms that she can't deal with before she is willing to change her behavior.

[KateCat]

Any idea what your wife's daily dose of Synthroid is, jedimaster? If it's only 25 mcg or so then she's probably just doing herself a minor disservice by not taking her meds. If it's more in the range of 100 mcg, and if she hasn't taken meds for a month, she would be right on time for the beginning of noticeable problems.

If it's the latter case, she might want to check in with her prescribing physician before going back on the full dose. She might need to work her way back up, in order to avoid cardiovascular stress and/or a visit to the ER. 

I agree you can't do anything to make her take her meds, but her dizziness (and other stuff) could get quite a bit worse in the next few weeks if she continues without thyroid meds, and if those meds are a full replacement dose. 

This is a worrisome action on her part, I think.  :'( Hang on to your hat.

[Grey Kitty]

  That sort of self-destructive behavior is really hard to watch. At least you know now.

I'm trying to kick my wife's butt into taking care of herself too right now. It is very hard to do it without being controlling/invalidating.

As I'm at a point where I'm half-way out (and so is she), I've got to the point of saying things like I can't make you do this, but if you don't, I cannot see you having the energy/health/etc. to make our marriage work.

I dunno if contacting her doctor would help you or not.

[braveSun]

I had told her a while back that ultimately she is responsible for her own inner happiness and until she understood that, nothing I could do on the outside could make her happy.  She completely rejects that, and claims that other people she has talked to think that is ridiculous as well.  She interprets my telling her that as my being unwilling to even try to make her happy, which is not true.  She also claims because I have set some financial boundaries that I am now a poor provider and unwilling to care for her properly.

Anybody else have a SO who doesn't want to be validated?

Oh yes, I do!... It's interesting to me Jedimaster, because even though I'm not sure of what I'm going to say is going to be helping at this point, I have a feeling that she might be trying to talk through to you about something that bugs her but that you don't see.

I'll explain.

I am non, and my partner is wBPD. Because of her condition, there are many times when she experiences boundary failures. That means, in my SO's experience, she is seeing herself as 'being in a situation she does not approves of' or  'she's not being treated well according to her own values', but she doesn't know [yet] how to be successful at asserting her need for independance from the situation, even less to check if something else can be done. That causes what I'd call a short circuit in her brain when she tries to assert something important.  Even if many times I see that her feelings are not reflecting the reality, she is not convinced at times by my efforts at 'validating her', because the accumulation of her life experiences does not 'match up' with what I'm trying to validate. In other words, she understands what I'm talking about, but she doesn't see her way through.

Example: She is in an expensive recovery treatment center, and after a week into treatment, she disagrees with what her T is suggesting. The whole duration for her stay there has already been paid for, and suddenly, she sees that the T is not being 'understanding her properly', let's say.  She's packed her bags and left for the next flight back home without even a word to the receptionist at the center. Than when she boards the plane, she calls me and tells me she's on her way back home. I know how crasy that is, because of the insane amount of money she just flung. But in her mind, all she talks about is that it's not a good fit. (read B&W thinking). She's still super mad at me from the last argument we've had a week before, so she expressly says in the phone call that she is in love with a new person, and that she wants the relationship with this new person to work when she is healed. Than she is asking me how I'm doing? (I'll pass on that one.)

Than I tell her that if the T is not treating her well it's understandable that she needs to do something about it, and I ask her if she did talk to her about the issue she had. She says no. Than she tells me what she did not like. I respond that I felt sad that she did not try at least to talk to the T before leaving the center, because I felt safer for her to have good treatment. I also asked if her sister who took care of the payment for her is going to wonder what has happened. Than I asked her if she's going to call her sister, and her long time friend, who helped her register at the centre.  She thought for a moment, and than she said point blank that even if she did want to return to the center it was too late because she was already on the plane. I knew it was a short flight and not too expensive to cxl.

I know this sounds silly, but at the time I had this feeling that she was in a bind and that I could help get her back. I asked if she was going to at least call the T at the centre to tell her she was OK and on her way home, because the T might be wondering if something had happened to her and send the police to check on her. Than I added that maybe the flight attendant did not mind at all if she'd leave the plane before the closure of the gate and just told them she'd forgot something important behind. She tought for a moment and her stance relaxed a bit. Than I asked her how she could get back to the centre from the airport, if it was a difficult place to reach. She could just pay for a cab. She ended up calling the T who offered her to return to the centre within 48 hours at no extra charges. That's when she decided to return to the centre. No further questions asked.

This was after her first week at the centre. Now she's been there for more than a month and making progress.

To me this way of 'not saying', but not wanting to be validated was possibly about not knowing how to assert herself in the face of some form of disagreement in an important situation and not seeing the way out.

[formflier]

Jedi,

Hey... .I think we have good back and forth and I think you get my style... .I focus on being clear on my advice... .rather than sugar coating it.  Plus... .in this instance... .I think time is running out... .which is why I may be a bit blunt in my advice.

Several issues here

First:  I think you need to get her to doctor to explain to doc where she is in her meds.  This is not something to be "winged"... .  Even if she starts taking the right dose again... it will take while to build back up.  The thyroid thing sucks... .and takes a long time to get right... .even when the person is following docs orders exactly. 

I think getting her in front of her doc to discuss meds is priority number 1  The part about you leaving is a sideshow... .don't get sucked in.

Offer to drive her... .whatever you need to do to get her there.  Make sure doctor has clear understanding that wife stopped taking meds on her own.

  I tried to reassure her that no matter what happens to us, I will not suddenly leave her uninsured or in medical need. 

In my opinion... .this was bad thing to say.  I could be taken as there will be no consequences for her behavior.

I wouldn't say it the other way either... .if you leave... .I'll cut you off.

I just wouldn't mention it either way.  You can validate this by acknowledging she has a troubling worry... .and leave it at that.

If she says you will leave her... ."ask her to help you understand why you would do that... ."  again... .listen for emotions to validate.

  I imagine she will have to wait until she has some symptoms that she can't deal with before she is willing to change her behavior.

The thing is... .once she has these... .it will take a long time for meds to stabilize her...

If you thought dealing with all the animals was tough... .  how do you thing "dealing with her"... .fully unmedicated will be?

Hang tough brother... .the force will be with you... .shut off your targeting computer... .fire the photons... .and get her to the doctor!

[Grey Kitty]

Anybody else have a SO who doesn't want to be validated?

Oh yes, I do!

... .

Than I tell her that if the T is not treating her well it's understandable that she needs to do something about it, and I ask her if she did talk to her about the issue she had.

Actually what you did was pure and perfect validation right there! You were showing her that you noticed and cared about how she was feeling. You then went on and asked her questions about what she was doing, leading her to more reasonable choices. You were very validating throughout the whole exchange.

Resisting validation is one thing... .and having err... .unpleasant and unfriendly feelings that are being validated is another one.

In that whole exchange you validated her feelings (which are real, sincere, and important), without judging her actions. (Which were rash and not productive.) This gave her room to back down and take more productive and helpful actions.   Good work on both your part and hers.

[jedimaster]

Any idea what your wife's daily dose of Synthroid is, jedimaster? If it's only 25 mcg or so then she's probably just doing herself a minor disservice by not taking her meds. If it's more in the range of 100 mcg, and if she hasn't taken meds for a month, she would be right on time for the beginning of noticeable problems.

If it's the latter case, she might want to check in with her prescribing physician before going back on the full dose. She might need to work her way back up, in order to avoid cardiovascular stress and/or a visit to the ER. 

I agree you can't do anything to make her take her meds, but her dizziness (and other stuff) could get quite a bit worse in the next few weeks if she continues without thyroid meds, and if those meds are a full replacement dose. 

This is a worrisome action on her part, I think.  :'( Hang on to your hat.

I got a look at her prescription records.  It's 0.112 mg, which translates into 112 mcg if I can still do math    So it's not surprising that she is having symptoms.

My best bet is to see if she starts putting on weight.  She is so careful about her weight that might be the one thing that convinces her.  She's at Weight Watchers today so I'll be curious to see what her results are.

[jedimaster]

Jedi,

Hey... .I think we have good back and forth and I think you get my style... .I focus on being clear on my advice... .rather than sugar coating it.  Plus... .in this instance... .I think time is running out... .which is why I may be a bit blunt in my advice.

Several issues here

First:  I think you need to get her to doctor to explain to doc where she is in her meds.  This is not something to be "winged"... .  Even if she starts taking the right dose again... it will take while to build back up.  The thyroid thing sucks... .and takes a long time to get right... .even when the person is following docs orders exactly. 

I think getting her in front of her doc to discuss meds is priority number 1  The part about you leaving is a sideshow... .don't get sucked in.

Offer to drive her... .whatever you need to do to get her there.  Make sure doctor has clear understanding that wife stopped taking meds on her own.

  I tried to reassure her that no matter what happens to us, I will not suddenly leave her uninsured or in medical need. 

In my opinion... .this was bad thing to say.  I could be taken as there will be no consequences for her behavior.

I wouldn't say it the other way either... .if you leave... .I'll cut you off.

I just wouldn't mention it either way.  You can validate this by acknowledging she has a troubling worry... .and leave it at that.

If she says you will leave her... ."ask her to help you understand why you would do that... ."  again... .listen for emotions to validate.

  I imagine she will have to wait until she has some symptoms that she can't deal with before she is willing to change her behavior.

The thing is... .once she has these... .it will take a long time for meds to stabilize her...

If you thought dealing with all the animals was tough... .  how do you thing "dealing with her"... .fully unmedicated will be?

Hang tough brother... .the force will be with you... .shut off your targeting computer... .fire the photons... .and get her to the doctor!

Thank you FF.  I agree she needs to be back on them immediately.  I am going to see what I can do to convince her, and if I can't get her to do it then I will call her doctor.  The doctor is supposed to have called in these prescriptions at her last visit, so I may be able to go pick them up and have them here for her.  That might help.

I appreciate what you're saying about the leaving, etc.  I tried to be careful to not say I would never leave her, because that is something I am working through at the moment.  Nevertheless I was trying to address somewhat her abandonment fears by assuring her that in any case I would not suddenly cut off her health insurance.  First, I would not do that to her; second I pay a family premium so there's no financial benefit to me to do that; third, in the event of a divorce it would only make me look bad. 

As you say, first priority is to get the meds straightened out and I'm going to work on that pronto.  Thanks for the straight talk

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

This is really courageous, jedi. (And tough too. I've read thyroid-board postings from many people who are afraid to come clean with their doctors on just such "experiments," and the forum moderators always tell them to buck up, confess to being off their meds, and get back on track ASAP.)

[formflier]

 

Hey... .just to be clear... .I don't think getting back on meds is enough.  She needs  doc appt to discuss this.  That is the safest and most conservative route... .

I think this is a... .or may the "core issue" you are dealing with now.

In other words... .I think you can validate perfectly... .boundary perfectly... .etc etc... .but unless thyroid gets back where doctors want it to be... .under close supervision of a doctor that knows she is or has been inconsistent in following directions... .then I think you will be wasting lots of energy on your other efforts.

A big rule on this forum... .or a big piece of advice is not not waste energy on sideshows... .when there is an elephant in the room... .

[KateCat]

She needs  doc appt to discuss this.  That is the safest and most conservative route... .

This is something the doctor does need to know. 

[jedimaster]

Well she came in from Weight Watchers and she had gained two more pounds.  This makes the third week in a row she has gained weight, which hasn't happened since she started going.  So I reminded her that she will gain weight without her thyroid meds and I think I have her convinced to take them.  I'm still planning to contact the doctor.  I'm trying to be very careful so as not to cause her to dig in her heels.  If it comes to a battle of wills she would put herself in the hospital rather than give in.  I reassured her once again that she is in no danger of losing her medical coverage and that she needs to focus on her health needs here and now rather than taking action based on some hypothetical future "what if".

Thanks everyone for the input and the concern.  I don't know how I would deal with all this without this forum.  It obviously wasn't named "bpdfamily" for nothing.

[KateCat]

I'm still planning to contact the doctor.

Sorry you have been put in this uncomfortable position, but proud to see you responding in the best way possible.

[Grey Kitty]

  Whew. It is a relief to hear that she is likely to get back on track with her meds.

A boundary you might need to think about is "I won't watch somebody I love harm herself this way without doing something about it."

If you can avoid her knowing you talked ot the doctor instead of speaking the boundary out loud, all the better.

[jedimaster]

Well, good news to report.  Wife got a part-time job and today was her first day.  I took our son to his morning activities so she wouldn't have to stress over scheduling, and we met up after her work.  She was as relaxed as I have seen her in a long time.  Was very upbeat and matter of fact about the work and scheduling, etc.  She didn't seem to be forcing a positive attitude as she so often does.  In the conversation she suddenly pulls out her phone and says "I need to call the pharmacy.  I've decided if I'm going to be working I'm going to need my meds."  I agreed and reassured her once again that we would make sure she has them and doesn't have to worry about paying for them.  So after she calls I said, "I'm going to be heading home anyway, why don't I go by and pick them up?" and she agreed. 

So I have her meds all sitting here on her nightstand for when she comes home in a bit, and she's decided she needs to take them.  Best case scenario; it was "her" idea to start back, so no battle of the wills.   

Whew.

I guess even a pwBPD can have a good day once in a while, in spite of their best efforts.   

[braveSun]

         

[KateCat]

My goodness! This is perfect news, though I have no earthly idea how she could be feeling ok if she really has been off thyroid meds for a month.

[formflier]

My goodness! This is perfect news, though I have no earthly idea how she could be feeling ok if she really has been off thyroid meds for a month.

Please keep looking for ways to get her in the doctors office... .quickly.

I am worried that her "emotional upswing" that may last a few days... .is covering up the lack of meds.

I'm with KateCat on this one... .I don't understand how she is doing so well?

Hey... .one other comment/question.  Are you trying to "validate" her by reassuring her about medical coverage?

I'm worried that you are running the risk of bringing up something that is "long gone" in her mind.

If you bring it back up... .she could begin ruminating on it... .and go down "that road" again with it.

Certainly need to be prepared if she brings it up again.  Just my .02 cents worth...

[KateCat]

I like formflier's thoughts. I would probably be avoidant and wishy-washy in your position, but really, if she's been "off meds" for a month, something bad is likely to happen. Possibly in the next two to three weeks, as each organ of the body uses up its last stores of thyroxine and begins to freak out. (For those handy with math, the fact that these meds have a half-life of about seven days is helpful to know.) If her general health is less than robust and she starts back on a full dose after no meds for a month, it could be dangerous.

I think this is kind of like a slow-motion version of a need to call 911.

Sorry you have to be the one to deal with this.

[jedimaster]

Thanks everyone.  Trying to manage this as best as I can.  I can tell you KateCat that her health is actually robust.  She is physically active and energetic.  I'm not certain of the last date she had any meds; I only know she said she didn't buy any more in December.  I think I phrased it differently in my post above.  I'm going to try to see what I can do to get her to work with her doctor about getting back on them gradually.  I'm glad we're over the hurdle of just getting her to get back on them, as that is the first step anyway.

FormFlier, I didn't bring up the medical coverage again, she did; so I reassured her once again that nothing was going to happen to it.  I do my best not to borrow trouble 

[KateCat]

Good for you for being tenacious on this important matter. (Especially as you are in the dark about what this matter actually is.  )

[formflier]

FormFlier, I didn't bring up the medical coverage again, she did; so I reassured her once again that nothing was going to happen to it.  I do my best not to borrow trouble 

That's better... .I think on the good... better... best... .spectrum of things.  You would be better off to validate her emotions... .than "reassure" her of your actions.  There may be a little nuance there you are missing.

I'm actually more concerned about the meds though. 

Again... .good better best.  I think right now you are somewhere between good and better... .unless she has a reaction to starting to take them again... .at which point you will be worse off (maybe)... .than if you had done nothing.

Kate's analogy on "slow 911" is correct... .or may be correct... we just don't know. 

I think I realize the pickle that you are in... .if you ask her directly to go... .she may dig her heels in... and you are really stuck.  You may be hoping it comes up so you can "nudge" her to doctor or help her figure out it is her idea.  And if you don't say anything... .and she gets sick... .or has a reaction... well that will suck too.

So... .ultimately... .this all comes down do decision making.  When making decisions about pwBPD traits... .it's best to not let FOG cloud your decision making.

Do you think your not talking to her about going to dr office is based on fear?  FOG?

Of course... .I hope I'm blowing this all out of proportion.  But I've been around people and know people that have had thyroid issues.  It ain't pretty... .but carefully managed... .it can be all better.

Hang in there!