She chased me around the house -- so I fled

[flourdust]

I hadn't even sat down at the dinner table when it started.

":)id you know... ." she hissed, "that your mother is making cranberry sauce?"

Thanksgiving is in a few days. As usual, we're driving 400 miles to be with our families (mostly my family). My mother is hosting the dinner, but she is getting up in years, so the rest of us have been doing more of the cooking and trying to get her to take it easy. Last year, she only made the turkey, but this year she's feeling more confident and is making a few more dishes. And that includes the cranberry sauce.

What does any of this have to do with my BPD wife? Nothing, other than her laundry list of issues. She hates Thanksgiving. It's her estranged father's birthday, and she's upset about that. She hates that my mom is doing more cooking and that I haven't stopped her. (How I do that, exactly, isn't clear to me. Call the cops to have her arrested for assault on the kitchen?) She feels that I will abandon her at Thanksgiving to help my mom. And so on. All of this came pouring out at dinner. It was confusing and infuriating, and it became a circular argument when she told me that I used to have all kinds of special techniques to help her survive at Thanksgiving, but when I asked her what those were, she refused to tell me. Truthfully, I have no idea what she's talking about, and I don't think she does, either.

After I put D10 to bed, I stopped by her room to mention I was going to fold the laundry and asked if I could get her water or ice cream while I was up. In her thick-with-rage voice, she told me "I'm terrified of you." This is one of her go-to complaints/threats that I can't possibly respond to. Another crazy argument commenced. She wanted to rehash my behavior at the dinner debate. I finally said I was done with the talk. Usually, that ends it -- I get away from her building rage and find a quiet spot in the house.

This time -- she followed me! All around the house! Getting right in my face and spewing verbiage. I asked her to stop talking to me. I asked her to leave me alone. Repeatedly. She wouldn't. I threw clothes on and told her I would have to leave if she didn't leave me alone. She mocked me and called me names. I got into my car and drove away. I had a "go bag" in my car, following advice I'd read here and elsewhere. This was the first time I had to use it. I spent the night in a hotel.

Tomorrow, we're supposed to drive those 400 miles. I won't take her in my car if she's going to create a hostile environment. A rational person would know that and be able to control herself. She's not rational. I have to be ready to abandon her tomorrow.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

First, good job at recognizing the no-win situation and getting out of there!  Good boundary.  I've been there, many, many times.  Leaving the situation is all you can do.

Second, good job at recognizing the danger of travelling that far with her.  Any chance of separate cars or separate transportation?  My wife tends to dysregulate on trips like that.  And when she does it in the car, it is a big safety issue.  I've pulled over, and gotten out of the car.  Do what you need to do to stay safe. 

[TheRealJongoBong]

You got to know when to hold em, and know when to fold em. It was probably a good decision to back off when your wife is going ape-s***. It sounded like a situation that was quickly becoming unpredictable. On the other hand, It does seem this is a good opportunity to try to understand what was really going on which might aid in future engagements.

From your descriptions I understand that your wife has a lot of anxiety about Thanksgiving because of her Father's birthday, and it seems she has anxiety about your mother taking care of you by cooking. The first is understandable because her father is probably a large contributor to her present emotional state, and the second is also understandable because if your mother is taking care of you, your wife (from her point of view) is no longer necessary for your happiness and this triggers her fear of abandonment.

It's clear she also holds you in high regard in some ways because she remembers a time when she felt you made her feel safe around thanksgiving. Now she wants you to make her feel safe again (because you have some tricks she doesn't understand) and all she gets is arguing which is making her feel decidedly unsafe. Since she is feeling unsafe, she reverts back to the old pattern and acts out to get you to make her feel safe! She probably doesn't understand that any of this is going on - she only knows what she's feeling.

OK, all this happened, she's got all of her anxiety aflame and she's pestering you to help. And of course she goes overboard because she doesn't really understand what's she's doing, and that makes you feel very unsafe and you flee. Or, from her point of view, you abandoned her at a critical time. This sounds like the perfect scenario for painting you black, doesn't it?

We might make the scenario go a different way by understanding her worldview and by validating her feelings. You can tell her directly that you are not abandoning her by helping your mother. You can tell her that it is not "you and I" who are going to Thanksgiving, it's "we are going to Thanksgiving because you are just as much a part of my family as my mother is and I want you to be there". You can recognize that the crazy argument is about her anxiety and tell her that you will help with everything in your power.

Forgive me for probably a little too much free associating.  My main point is that I bear as much responsibility in communications with my wife as she does, perhaps more so.  I am in a position that I can regulate my emotions and sooth myself better than she can. That means to me that I have the responsibility to observe the worldview of my partner and communicate in such a way as to bring us closer together, as opposed to paying attention just to my emotions and letting the chips fall as they may.

[formflier]

  So, what is the plan if she is weird tomorrow.  I do the water/ice cream thing a lot.  However, I found that asking for a response can be triggering.  My tactic that seems to be better than asking is to just take her something.  No telling how many undrank glasses of water have been left around the house.  It's a chance to do something for her, give her a gentle touch and "test the waters".    If she remains silent, I leave the water and move along.  How can you validate being terrified of someone?  If she has said this before, I would figure out a way to validate.                    

FF

[maxsterling]

How can you validate being terrified of someone?  If she has said this before, I would figure out a way to validate.

FF

I agree, to some extent.  But I am a strong advocate of not even trying serious communication with someone who is not safe.  Given that the travel is soon, getting some kind of feedback here is urgent, but I say "test the waters" and if any hostility is sensed, back off, and skip trying to validate.  I've been in the situation where I have been chased around the house, and needed to lock a door in order to get space.  Locking the door was met with physical violence.  If flourdust is experiencing the same, or if there is a potential for violence, my advice is safety first. 

[formflier]

  I agree with Max.  Validation or "mis-validating" does not in anyway make the tantrum the "fault" of the "non".  Since this is repetitive, the goal is to see if there is a way to "turn the ship" to calmer waters with validation.  If her saying this ends up being a 100% guarantee of a dysreg then I would figure out something to say like "I need to get some space or time away" and then give the space.  What was different about this discussion about "terrified" that might have led to her following you?  Again, not saying fault but trying to identify triggers.                    

FF

[maxsterling]

I know in my case my wife has claimed she is afraid of me.  This despite the fact I have never hit anyone in my life, rarely curse, almost can't even raise my voice, and never call names.  Before were married, she saw me as having all the control, because she was living in my house with no income of her own.  And she knows (correctly) that if I have had enough, I can ask her to leave.  In other words, she was afraid I would "dump" her, and leave her with nothing.  Meanwhile, she was hitting me, screaming at me, throwing things, and chasing me around.  And yet she was afraid of me?

Perhaps this is what your SO is "terrified" of about you.  That you may come to your senses at any time and do something to get her in trouble.  You could get a restraining order.  You could call child services.  You could call police.  In the case of my wife, that is what she feared - she feared me calling for help because she knew she could face consequences if I did.

[flourdust]

I don't think anything was different about it -- I think she decided to try something new. She  hates that I have a boundary where I no longer just stick around and take it for however many hours she wants to chew me out. She's been complaining that my leaving conversations is all about me "having control of her." The concept that a conversation should require two willing participants isn't one she agrees with -- she's expressed that if she wants to keep talking, then the conversation should not end.

So, from what she was saying last night, I think she decided that she would have the power by not letting it end. This was an escalation I had to nip in the bud, so I left.

We have only communicated by texts today, and hers have been characteristically long-winded and self-righteous. (Is it a BPD quality to send gigantic text essays?) I kept mine short. I did say that if she couldn't promise that there would be no conflict and hostility in the car tomorrow that in the interest of safety, I would not drive her. She refuses to promise that, calls me a terrible partner for not driving her, etc. So be it -- she's going to have to drive herself, while I drive myself and D10.

[flourdust]

Perhaps this is what your SO is "terrified" of about you.  That you may come to your senses at any time and do something to get her in trouble. 

Likely. She sometimes says that she thinks I am trying to get her to leave me so I don't have to leave her. And I'm the only one with a job and steady income. (She makes a little money teaching religious school for a few hours per week.)

But I'm not playing mind games with her. When I decide I've had enough, I'll file divorce papers. I don't threaten divorce like she does -- I'll just do it. I've been giving her time in the hope that her DBT program will start to make life more tolerable, but I'm running out of patience. What criteria should I use to decide if I move to the "Undecided" or "Leaving" board?

[maxsterling]

She's been complaining that my leaving conversations is all about me "having control of her." The concept that a conversation should require two willing participants isn't one she agrees with -- she's expressed that if she wants to keep talking, then the conversation should not end.

I get the exact same thing.  W complains of me "walking away" whenever she gets upset.  She doesn't understand that I have a right to not participate in conversations.  She thinks I am trying to control her; I am simply trying to regain control of myself.  As far as I am concerned, she can stay and scream and talk to the lamp shade all she wants.  I don't have to be there to hear it.  

We have only communicated by texts today, and hers have been characteristically long-winded and self-righteous. (Is it a BPD quality to send gigantic text essays?) I kept mine short. I did say that if she couldn't promise that there would be no conflict and hostility in the car tomorrow that in the interest of safety, I would not drive her. She refuses to promise that, calls me a terrible partner for not driving her, etc. So be it -- she's going to have to drive herself, while I drive myself and D10.

Good job    Safety first, and stick to your boundaries.  Of course she is mad now, but chances are it will blow over.  And yes, my wife sends essay texts, too.  Not just to me, but to friends and co-workers.  And it alienates everyone she does it to.

[formflier]

  So be it -- she's going to have to drive herself, while I drive myself and D10.

                   I think I'm seeing an extinction burst here.   She tried to get you back in line and it didn't work.  I think you are on the right course, be strong.    Look for ways to validate and "listen" to her while upholding your boundaries.                    

FF

[Icthelight]

And yes, my wife sends essay texts, too.  Not just to me, but to friends and co-workers.

I receive essay texts too. Boy I hate those. I also get long emails with no paragraphs. She uses periods and proper punctuation, but no paragraphs. When I get them, I flick my finger at my phone to scroll down and see how long they are. After flicking 3 or 4 times with no end in sight, I stop and get back to it later.

The "you never have my back" and "you don't stick up for me" statements have been constant since we got married. If I do stick up for her but don't show anger or yell at the person, then it doesn't count. She'll say "you call that speaking up?"

Amazing how similar these incidents are.

[maxsterling]

And yes, my wife sends essay texts, too.  Not just to me, but to friends and co-workers.

I receive essay texts too. Boy I hate those. I also get long emails with no paragraphs. She uses periods and proper punctuation, but no paragraphs. When I get them, I flick my finger at my phone to scroll down and see how long they are. After flicking 3 or 4 times with no end in sight, I stop and get back to it later.

The "you never have my back" and "you don't stick up for me" statements have been constant since we got married. If I do stick up for her but don't show anger or yell at the person, then it doesn't count. She'll say "you call that speaking up?"

Amazing how similar these incidents are.

I have a hypothesis on this.  I think my wife grew up in an atmosphere where she felt people didn't listen to her.  I also think she had many childhood incidents where things happened to her, and the people that were "supposed" to protect her were not around.  It is said that pwBPD are stuck in a childhood mentality.  When she sends long messages - she is the teenager trying to prove that her opinion matters - make a statement.  When she wants others to defend her and stick up for her, it's like the 6 year old who wants mom and dad to take the pain away.  These are issues you can't solve - it's like filling up a black hole.

[byfaith]

The "you never have my back" and "you don't stick up for me" statements have been constant since we got married. If I do stick up for her but don't show anger or yell at the person, then it doesn't count. She'll say "you call that speaking up?"

This last summer we went to visit her mom. Her and her mom get into it pretty bad. Well anyway she came up to me and whispered in my ear that if I didn't take up for her she would kill me. It was a little unnerving, I know she wouldn't "kill" me but she meant I will do something drastic if you don't take up for me. I do my best to validate and avoid crap between her and her mom.

I get the essay texts also when she needs to tell me what a pathetic person she thinks I am. Have not had one of those in about a month.

[babyducks]

I like what the RealJongoBong said about this:

On the other hand, It does seem this is a good opportunity to try to understand what was really going on which might aid in future engagements.

for a long time my partner's outbursts appeared nonsensical to me, it wasn't until much later, and at a much calmer time that I could see the patterns and the real messages behind some of the outbursts.    when dysregulated her communications skills degraded.   and descriptors became wild but after a while I learned to recognize the grain, and I do mean grain of truth behind the storm.

I think there is a lot of nuance and subtle messages that are hard to convey with text on a screen.   I absolutely agree with max when he said

 But I am a strong advocate of not even trying serious communication with someone who is not safe.  ... . If flourdust is experiencing the same, or if there is a potential for violence, my advice is safety first

safety first is non negotiable in my book.   having boundaries is vitally important.   and that absolutely has to be melded with what formflier said

Look for ways to validate and "listen" to her while upholding your boundaries.

to borrow a cliché, it can't be all stick and no carrot.   validation and empathic listening have to have an equal role.   it's hard to fit them in while things are tense.   it's typically easier to validate when things are calmer.   sometimes the best I can do is what theRealJongoBong suggested, & it's often not pretty when I do that.

to observe the worldview of my partner and communicate in such a way as to bring us closer together, as opposed to paying attention just to my emotions and letting the chips fall as they may.

What criteria should I use to decide if I move to the "Undecided" or "Leaving" board?

Good Question.   The suggestion is that the Staying board is best for people actively involved in problem solving, who are willing to accept constructive advice and opinions.   Since you have a child together you will be communicating with your wife for a long time, no matter which path you decide to go down.   The communication skills and practice are here on Staying.   Undecided is the place to lay out the pro's and cons of staying and leaving, to explore the what if's and decide whether to work on the relationship or abandon it.   Leaving is the place to detach, grieve and vent.  

She's been complaining that my leaving conversations is all about me "having control of her." The concept that a conversation should require two willing participants isn't one she agrees with -- she's expressed that if she wants to keep talking, then the conversation should not end.

Don't validate the invalid.  Validate that you have heard that she wants to keep talking but right now you need to take a break.   I use lines like, 'we see this differently'   'I need to take a break now.'  'I appreciate you have more to say, however (don't say but) however I need to take a time out.'

'ducks

[pallavirajsinghani]

What criteria should I use to decide if I move to the "Undecided" or "Leaving" board?

This is an intuitive question.  You know intuitively when to ask this question.  You will know intuitively when (and if) to follow up on this question with an answer.

Either way, we will accept it gracefully.

There are people who have switched boards too... .and that is acceptable too.

Everyone's tolerance level is different.  Many times we confuse codependency and tolerance with love and many times we confuse self-care with selfishness and abandonment of a loved one.  So, listen to your gut feeling... .

[formflier]

  So, listen to your gut feeling,

                   Especially the gut feeling that you have when things are calm and you are relaxed and can think through things.  Yes, you need to remember the really bad times and the really good times but if either of those are "fresh" I would encourage you to let some healing and calming take place before making decisions.   Also wanted to comment on what Ducks said about avoiding "but".  There are several words that I have tried to get rid of.  but and why  Are high on the list.  They really seemed to take a conversation in the wrong direction, no matter how carefully I said them.                    

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My ex-husband (another pwBPD) chased me on several occasions. It's hard to imagine why anyone would do this, but BPD... .I keep trying to figure things out logically.

Leaving that marriage happened for me in a flash--I got to the point of NEVER AGAIN! He didn't believe it and thought he could talk me back into it, but once I was out, I was done.

Don't worry about "figuring it out"--if you're ready to leave, you will know. Otherwise, keep posting on the Staying board and sorting through strategies to make things better.

[dealingwithit]

I agree with your approach. My husband has dysregulated many times before or during long car trips. Not worth it!

[an0ught]

Hi flourdust,

what a nonsensical drama  . Good for you that you left the house and had a go-bag in your car 

What criteria should I use to decide if I move to the "Undecided" or "Leaving" board?

Right now emotions are flying high and first of all it would be good to calm down before thinking about this. Let's take a step back - what happened?

- annual stress phase

- she got agitated and she did not calm down after dinner. Started following you.

- you took a night out (something you were prepared to do and is a sensible way to avoid further escalation)

Timeouts are there to protect us. They are not punishment nor abandonment although they may feel to one or both parties - particularly the first time. What I'm sensing in this thread is a conflict that was managed quite well now further escalating into abandonment.

Driving separately may be wise and safer. Some distance may help you both to stay calmer. But then boundaries and distance need management too. Validating abandonment, distress and need for space may be sensible steps to calm the waves of this Thanksgiving storm.

[flourdust]

She hated the idea of driving herself or staying behind, so we ended up making an agreement that there would be no conflict and little talking in the car. I didn't have a lot of faith in this. Sure enough, the very SECOND she got in the car, she started arguing that the agreement was unfair -- she was supposed to shut up and be nice while I was allowed to be mean to her. Also, we weren't supposed to have "conflict" and she claimed that she didn't know what conflict meant.

This finally ended when I told her she could either agree to no conflict or get out of the car. To her credit, she stayed quiet on the ride and so did I. At lunch time, she claimed she had been biting her tongue until it bled, and then she laid into me on various topics until I withdrew from the table. Again, a quiet ride the rest of the way. We got to her mother's place, and I asked "What would you like to do for dinner?" That was all I needed to say. She began blaming me for not planning and not communicating with her, then she wanted me to go over the entire weekend so she could somehow prove that I had been lying about the planned events or something, then to rant about my mother, then to rant that I was mean to force a condition of no fighting in the car, and to threaten not to come to Thanksgiving dinner. I left - fortunately, the plan was for her to stay with her mother while I stayed with my folks.

Just as a reminder, this was the response to "What would you like to do for dinner?"

I haven't seen much of her this weekend. She is staying with her mom and going out with high school friends. I'm enjoying having quiet time by myself.  Peace. I've spent time with my folks. She came to Thanksgiving and immediately wanted to drag me into the drama of an email exchange with her father. I validated her and complimented her on not melting down during Thanksgiving (phrased more nicely, I suppose). She left after a few hours and I stated to enjoy my family.

We'll see how the ride home goes. 

[Icthelight]

Just as a reminder, this was the response to "What would you like to do for dinner?"

You're evil Flourdust, truly evil. How can you ask such a question knowing she bit and has a bleeding tongue? All you know how to do is inflict pain

I was wondering how you were doing. I'm glad that you made it there safely. Try to stay calm and drive back safely.

[flourdust]

The story ended with a police call.

We mostly stayed apart the entire holiday weekend. There were several occasions where there was tension because she was upset with me because of the plans or wanted to vent about members of my family. I can't say I enjoyed her company, but at least we got through the weekend without major blowups.

The drive home went OK for the first six hours. Traffic was heavy and there were several accidents on the road. The slow pace and frequent braking was starting to aggravate her, I could tell. She started to make little aggressive comments. At the last highway rest stop, she began complaining about me -- it was a mode I've seen often before. I call it "I have to be a b___ to you because of how you victimize me."

Only a dozen miles from home, I pulled off at a gas station so that D10 could use a bathroom. I asked BPDw if she would take D to the bathroom, and she said something like "You're not asking! You're telling! Because I never get what I want!"

I said "You don't want to take her to the bathroom?"

She said, "I wanted to have a few minutes to calm myself! But you don't care!" Then she stormed off with D. When she came back, she complained for a while about me. I let her without much comment. I tried to drive us to the grocery store to pick up a few things for dinner, but she kept up running criticism. I was getting agitated and trying to get her to stop -- first by not engaging, then by asking her to stop, then by telling her to stop (using sharper language), and finally by threatening to have her leave the car if she wouldn't stop. Every action just made the situation escalate. D10 was also starting to dysregulate and blamed me for causing this.

I left the car and went into the store to take a break. When I came back, BPDw had her mother on the phone to mediate. (Her mother is pretty familiar with this whole situation.) Her mother said I should apologize, so in the interest of trying to de-escalate, I apologized to D10 and then to BPDw. Wife said she had nothing at all to apologize for, which is unfortunately exactly what I expected from her.

I gave up on my dinner plan and just took them to a fast food place of their choice. They ate, and W and I began arguing again -- about how to drive home. I wanted her to follow the simple rule of NOT FIGHTING IN THE CAR. She refused and began projecting on me -- I'm starting all the conflict (it must be my technique of driving quietly while listening to the radio), I'm clearly unsafe to drive, etc. I got more and more frustrated. I ended up calling her mother back. Her mother thought this whole thing was ridiculous and said we should be adults and just get in the car and go home without conditions. I agreed, in order to do anything to end this nightmare. She refused. Again. Because she said that I wouldn't honor the agreement, and she had the right to say to me whatever she wants whenever she wants.

At this point, the police showed up. The restaurant staff had called them because of the scene we were making. They separated us and took our statements. They said it was terrible to expose our daughter to this (obviously), and W should get her own ride home. I was asked what my plan was, and I said I would stay in a separate part of the house tonight, and if that didn't work, get a hotel room again.

Our first domestic disturbance call. That's a milestone, I suppose.

I'm so drained and sad after all of this. I think I'm pretty much in the leaving camp at this point. I don't see any way that this gets better.

[Aussie0zborn]

I feel your pain and frustration. I like your level headed approach - well done.

One thing I've read here and something I should have done was to whip out my iphone and video record the "in your face" confrontations and physical attacks. Some members reported doing it and the pwBPD backed off each time. I wish I had done it.

Instead, I would head to the local motel, just like you. It was $70 for one night, and then $80, and then $99. If it was full I would go to the next one or the next one after that which was $240 for one night.

I would deduct this amount from my half of the mortgage payment each month. She sent me an email saying that deducting the cost of the hotel where I sought refuge  was "abusive" towards her. In settlement, when I point to the credit card charges for my hotel rooms, she says these were for "sexual rendezvous". You can't win.

If it feels unsafe, whipping out the smartphone and hitting "record" might save you if the police become involved again. Good luck and keep that level head. So far so good.

[formflier]

  Falcon makes a dash cam with two cameras and a microphone.  One camera can be pointed forward and one into the car.  I think they swivel to the point where both can be pointed into the car.  Anyway.  Sometime to think about if you want to continue to have her in the car with you.  I think groupon has them for $99 right now.  My take on this is that she see's this as a challenge and a way to push buttons.   She kept after it and it eventually worked.  (not saying this is your fault)  The strength it takes to withstand this kind of verbal assault (long term) is huge.  It's ok to look at the situation, be honest with yourself (and her) and say you don't have the strength to do this.  Solution 1:  Ride separately  Solution 2:  Ride together and she hushes.  It seems obvious to me that you gave her the choice, she chose option 2 and we see how that worked out.  If anyone see's another solution here, please put it forward.  Hang in there.                  

FF

[maxsterling]

Wow.  I'm soo sorry you had to deal with this.  It sounds like pure hell  

I sometimes wonder when the first time another bystander will call the police on my W.  She has made a scene in public before, and others have noticed and made comments to me.  We've been approached by a security guard once, and a neighbor did mention to me that he heard my wife screaming and asked if everything was ok. 

[flourdust]

We have agreed -- as much as we can agree, considering that she can rewrite history to suit her mood -- to have some space from each other. I'm sleeping in the guest room for the time being, and I'm going to remove myself from any conflict happening in the house. We have an appointment with our MC on Friday, so that's when we'll try to confront what's going on. I don't have any particular expectation of this session, considering how ineffective MC has been to date, but it hopefully buys five days of relative peace.

I'm also not going to drive her any more.

Her mother wants to persuade her to get into an inpatient program of some kind, out of state so that she'd be away from her family environment and able to focus on improvement. I support this, but it's unclear if she can be convinced to go. I'm going to start another thread about the hallmarks of effective therapy. My wife is in therapy -- plenty of it -- but I'm not convinced her approach is effective.

[formflier]

  Interesting, are there any in her family that are enablers or that are saying that she is "just fine" or normal?    I have seen advertisements for those inpatient programs where you travel and stay there for a long time.  Always been curious if they were good or not.  Regarding MC in 5 days.  What is your plan?  I'm thinking have a written list of a couple things you are wanting to solve.  I would stress at the start that you are looking for minimal "discussion" and "maximizing" focus on a solution.  It is very tempting to open up a discussion on why she can't honor an agreement to sit in a car and "leave it alone", whatever it is.  Maybe offering up that you are willing to drive her places after she has taken "concrete" steps (not sure what that would be) to address her inability to "leave it alone" until later when you are not in a car.                

FF

[flourdust]

Thanks, FF. I don't have a clear plan for Friday. I'll need to organize my notes and think about it.

My one concrete thought is that I won't accept any more "rules" from the MC session. This MC has a playbook where he lets us both talk or vent, sometimes trying to correct irrational or over-generalizing statements. (He's often had to say to my wife, "That's not what I heard him say." Then he wraps up by proposing a "quick win" where we'll agree to a simple behavioral change -- such as "plan for the week at dinnertime one night so that there isn't any fighting." Or "Take short breaks when the conversation becomes too intense." My wife isn't able to follow any rules when she's emotional -- her executive control goes out the window. So a rational negotiation of communication strategies to try to build cooperation between us is guaranteed to fail.

Assuming that any kind of MC will work for us, we need a different mode of intervention. I don't know what that is.


Her family consists of her estranged uNPD father (who lives, practically incommunicado, in another country), her mother, and her younger brother. They're both completely aware of her issues, and her mother desperately wants her to be saved before they destroy her.

[formflier]

  I tend to run a bit "counter" to most of the thinking on these boards that once you figure out that MC is not working for you, to go on to something else.  I think that continuing MC keeps lines of communication open.  Perfect for things like you mentioned where the MC says "That's not what I hear."  I think you keep going with the "rules" and " quick wins".  Yep, I said that.  However, keep track.  Make the topic of discussion that she seemed to be displaying some emotion that you didn't understand (yes, be vague) and the "rule" was broken (such as she wouldn't let you take a break in a conversation)  Very intentional that you are vague here so as to not be accusatory.  Let her fill in the blanks on her feelings and behavior.  Then pivot the discussion to "solutions".    If she proposes to have the same rule or a new similar rule, go with it, for a while.  Eventually, you and I know that she will not be able to follow rules.    Stay neutral and press for solutions. Very important to come off as non-judgmental and that you are sure she can find solutions to stuff she can control.  It's about baby steps                

FF