Conversation with my exuBPD married lover

[RomanticFool]

Hi pearlsw,

Thanks for your reply.

if she did not reply to you with an "I love you too" is it possible that she is not feeling the same level of love at this time

I think she is too depressed to feel much of anything at the moment. It's my own fault, I know how she feels but I keep trying to dip my toe in the water again.

were you validating in order to get her to fall in love with you? Or were you doing it to improve communication in a general sense?

I think the honest answer to this is a bit of both. I guess I am missing physical intimacy since I don't have it in my marriage. The point is now though, however much I feel like blowing up the current goodwill with the ex, I won't do it, as the alternative just makes me out of control. I am doing it as much for my own peace of mind as hers. It is working and she hasn't simply rejected me.

Here is our conversation this morning (just after I posted above) which shows how wrong I am to feel rejected and is a good illustration of her mental state:

Her: Morning x
Me: Morning x
Her: Feeling any better?
Mel: A little better slept. You?
Her: I'm getting there tiredness wise
Me: Good. How are you feeling?
Her: Much the same - upped the medication
Me: Hope that works x
Her: It's my last resort!
Me: You'll feel better soon. It ebbs and flows
Her: This has been going on for months now
Me: Is it to do with anything or clinical depression?
Her: Who knows - I'm thinking it's to do with being 60 and feeling I've run out of time to do anything in my life
Me: Well I understand how you feel but you haven't run out of time, my darling. I see you as young still. I get days where I feel the same at 54. But life goes on and so do we. There are many things to do.
Her: I physically can't do some stuff anymore so I can't kid myself I'm as old as I feel!
Me: I understand. But you can get injuries and ailments when you're young. You are still supple. You are in good shape for any age.
Her: But my eyesight is shot and I've got arthritis in my hands and feet and now my knees are going
Me: I get it but none of that stops you from living darling. My back is screwed but I just dose myself.
Her: No it doesn't but it stops me enjoying my life
Me: Not everything. Do what you can. I can't do kung fu anymore so I'll play guitar instead!
Her: I appreciate what you are saying but if you have arthritis  in your hands you're pretty much screwed. I have to go - got some work to sort out asap x
Me: Love you... Don't despair. You can still cuddle me.
Her: Ty x
Me: xxxx

My own neediness is starting to aggravate me. I can see it is getting in the way of this situation and she spends much more time in the mornings talking to me now than she ever did. I could have been far more validating than I was regarding her feelings around arthritis.

[pearlsw]

Well, that is good practice! It is hard not to want to look on the bright side and cheer someone up. I need to practice this too, just really listening and dialing in to what other people are feeling. It is not always easy to find the right words. I hope you are appreciated!

[formflier]

Just went through the conversation...

I would challenge you to read through and reflect on the "rules" about talking to someone with BPD.

In my opinion... .you invalidated her and he likely left the conversation feeling more inflamed than before.

I would hope you can reflect on this and I would then challenge you to point out places where you invalidated... .

FF

[RomanticFool]

FF,

I know I invalidated her but I don't think she left angry or inflamed, maybe a little irritated. We have been getting on well and if she was really annoyed she wouldn't have given me the kiss.

However, I do need to work on my validation skills. Or lack of them. I think I should have asked her about her arthritis and why she feels she can't do anything. Allow her to express her feelings rather than jump in with my comments.

The point is, her arthritis isn't that bad and it I think that it is her depression talking. Well at least it wasn't that bad the last time I saw her six months ago. So my instinct is always to look on the positive rather than wallow in the negative. I am aware this doesn't work with a pwBPD, so I just need to keep practising.

[formflier]

I know I invalidated her but 

Hey... .practice first on avoiding invalidation.  Remember... .invalidation and validation are not the same value.

Think of it as 1 invalidation equals 10 validations... .or worse.

It really is that powerful... .

FF

[RomanticFool]

So much for validation:

Her: Morning
Me: Morning. How are you? x
Her: Feeling tired today. What does the day hold for you?
Me: Not much really. Trying not to fret about work.  You said you're tired. Are you not sleeping?
Her: Taking sleeping pills and makes me feel s#it when I wake up
Me: Sorry you're feeling sh#t today. How are things generally?
Her: Not good - upped medication is not hitting the spot and I do feel I'm heading towards some sort of crisis.
Me: Sorry to hear that. How does that feel? Panic?  Anxiety?
Her: Absolutely nothing - just a feeling of dread and emptiness
Me: And this has been going on how long now?
Her: Since the beginning of the year.
Me : Have there been any times where you have had respite?
Her: Very very rare
Me: So you feel dead and empty. Do you think this is a sign of depression?
Her: Who knows - seems to be my default setting at present
Me: What do you dread?
Her: The emptiness of my exsistence and lack of a future. I don't know.
Me: I hear you - this is something you have often said. Connected with getting older and poor health. Wondering if there is anything you want to do but feel you can't?
Her: I'm deeply unhappy and have discovered through 12 stepping that I cannot find a solution through any addictive behaviour so what is there left ?
Me: I have often felt like that too. I guess the solution is to keep going and do the things that make you happy or bring some respite.
Her: My strategies are no longer working
Me: What strategy no longer works?
Her: Music, being outside, helping others
Me: Would seeing me help you?
Her: I can't find a way at present so I don't think about that.
Me: Ok. Well let me know if that changes. We always have a nice time together.
Her: Damned with faint praise.
(She left the conversation)
Me: Let me be clear. I live to see you but you keep telling me not to push you. My world lights up when I see you. I think if you could find the time to see me it would help you. I love you. You know that.

In all honesty, I give up on this woman. Nothing I say is going to make any difference and it also appears that taking the intensity out of the situation has annoyed her.

Or worse, the mere mention of meeting has antagonised her. Well I can't be her psychiatrist. She has had alot of help and none of it is working. All I can offer is an ear to listen to her but I am not going to pretend that I don't want to see her. That would be disingenuous. Maybe I should just leave her alone now.

[Sunfl0wer]

Humm... .

I think the first step, was not invalidating her, then later learning about use of validation.

Reading this... .
Imagining myself her... .
I too would be annoyed at you.
I feel like you are leading her down a path that you want her to be on.
I feel like you behavior communicates to her... .
I will not accept you the way you are.  It is not ok to wallo in your depression, is not the way I want to engage with you, I insist you be goal oriented and do something about your state so you can be nore pleasant to be around, and you should assume a positive outlook of things... .as that is the conditions for me to be ok with our interactions together.  Anything else will cause me discomfort.  I will deal with my discomfort feelings by assuming You to be flawed and fixing You!

I feel like you are only asking her questions about her state of being, baiting her... .to then explain how she is wrong.  Wrong for not being solutions based and just being feelings based in her experience.

Sometimes people need to be ok to sit with their uncomfortable feelings to learn how to cope, learn how to live with discomfort. (Both her AND you!)

Sounds like the feelings made you uncomfortable so instead of sitting there with them, you tried to "fix" something, which actually is a way to remove you from feeling your own feelings stirred up about it all.  It effectively shifts your focus off of your own discomfort, throws yourself in a "helper" role.  (So instead of feeling your discomfort of feeling "you failed her," you take on a rescue role because even attempting a rescue helps you feel better about you)

Me: I have often felt like that too. I guess the solution is to keep going and do the things that make you happy or bring some respite.

Maybe better eplained via hypothetical... .
Imagine someone is grieving the loss of their dad.
Imagine being at the funeral and saying... .
Well, yes, we grow old, die, and never know how many days we all have left.  This is why the solution is... .to keep going, do things that make you happy, because we never know when our time is up.

Most folks would not state something like that at a funeral, even if it is eventually true.

Reason is, we respect a persons "right" to feel sad, to grieve, to just be ok with their sad feelings about the experience.

Telling them to look on the bright side, offering them solutions to their sadness to prove to them how they can in fact just be happy right now, if they so choose, would be... .INVALIDATING.

So how about working on not invalidating first?  (Before working on trying to validate)

Trying to FIX her emotional state... .
Is not working for her
Or you
And not a good "skill" to bring to most women.

Helps to RA that we are all responsible for our own emotional states.  When you grasp where her feelings begin and end and where your feelings begin and end, I suspect things will go differently for you no matter who you are with.

Her depression, her sadness is NOT personal!
It is not your fault!
It does not mean she is broken!
It is NOT your job to fix it!
Let her have her feelings! (Don't try erasing her emoyional state in any way)

So back to you... .
What are you feeling when she says she is sad?.
(I suspect this is what u are actually trying to avoid and likely a reenactment you are repeating in life)

[patientandclear]

Agreeing with Sunflower; but also posting to add: how about consciously resolving NOT to interject yourself as a solution in each and every conversation? It is what you want, but it is NOT a solution to her feelings. "I love you and that should make you feel better" is a theme in all the sessions with her that you've shared.

Showing love is more powerful that saying the words to someone with BPD. One shows love through acceptance, steadiness, genuine interest, and not using the pwBPD and their need for connection to meet your own needs. Being used by others and not being able to be themselves in relationship seems to be a deep fear for many people wBPD. You're feeding right into that.

I'm impressed with her self awareness. "I think life looks empty and I've learned through 12 stepping that I can't solve that through addictive behaviors so what is left?" is a very legitimate, important question with no easy answer. She is facing fears that have previously driven her to coping mechanisms that provided temporary respite. You suggesting temporary respite isn't recognizing that she is trying NOT to resort to temporary respites that have been unhealthy. She is trying to stay in her legitimate doubts about the meaning of it all. That is good, hard work; not a problem to be solved.

[RomanticFool]

but also posting to add: how about consciously resolving NOT to interject yourself as a solution in each and every conversation? It is what you want, but it is NOT a solution to her feelings. "I love you and that should make you feel better" is a theme in all the sessions with her that you've shared.

Then I am not the correct person to be talking to her. I don't really feel that I want to wait another 6 months before she deigns to see me. I am not her psychiatrist. In fact I am not anything to her. I give up.

I'm impressed with her self awareness. "I think life looks empty and I've learned through 12 stepping that I can't solve that through addictive behaviors so what is left?" is a very legitimate, important question with no easy answer. She is facing fears that have previously driven her to coping mechanisms that provided temporary respite. You suggesting temporary respite isn't recognizing that she is trying NOT to resort to temporary respites that have been unhealthy. She is trying to stay in her legitimate doubts about the meaning of it all. That is good, hard work; not a problem to be solved.

I am not impressed with that because it means she is not engaging in the AA programme. The 12 steps does not lead to hopelessness. I am annoyed because I know she is not doing the steps. If she was doing them then she would see light at the end of the tunnel. She prefers to see life in bleak terms because that is her world view and all she has allowed AA to do for her is take away the drug but she won't do the work to replace it with mindfulness and work. This is not a woman who wants to get well and in my experience the programme will only work if you work it. In fact she probably finds everybody in the rooms invalidating because everybody looks on the bright side in AA because many of them have been in a trough of despair for year.

She needs focused professional help. I do not know how to help her but I am not going to sit by and listen to her talk herself into another suicide attempt.

[RomanticFool]

I too would be annoyed at you.
I feel like you are leading her down a path that you want her to be on.
I feel like you behavior communicates to her... .
I will not accept you the way you are.  It is not ok to wallo in your depression, is not the way I want to engage with you, I insist you be goal oriented and do something about your state so you can be nore pleasant to be around, and you should assume a positive outlook of things

I am leading her down a path of trying to move her away from suicidal ideation. I have done this before. We have a long history and often my cajoling has worked. She has no reason to be annoyed.

I feel like you are only asking her questions about her state of being, baiting her... .to then explain how she is wrong.  Wrong for not being solutions based and just being feelings based in her experience.

That is absolutely NOT what I did. I asked her (not told her) if seeing me would help. When she said no, I said 'ok' ket me know if that changes. There is no 'bating' her at all. Only compassion and love. The fact that you can't see it doesn't make it any less so.

Sometimes people need to be ok to sit with their uncomfortable feelings to learn how to cope, learn how to live with discomfort.

If I let her go down her current path uninterrupted she will try to kill herself. That much I guarantee.

Trying to FIX her emotional state... .
Is not working for her
Or you
And not a good "skill" to bring to most women.

You are right and wrong. With her it doesn't work at all. With my wife that is exactly what she needs when she has a problem. A solution. So please stop turning these conversations into gender issues. I am not some kind of predatory unfeeling man. I love this woman.

Her depression, her sadness is NOT personal!
It is not your fault!
It does not mean she is broken!
It is NOT your job to fix it!
Let her have her feelings!

I don't take it personally that she is feeling sad, but I do take it personally that she has no intention of seeing me. I am not equipped to deal with this kind of mental health issue. I am not a health professional. I can listen to her concerns up to a point, but I will not listen to her go so low that she feels like killing herself. That would be negligent on my behalf.

What are you feeling when she says she is sad?.
(I suspect this is what u are actually trying to avoid and likely a reenactment you are repeating in life)

Possibly. This is something I have considered myself. However, this woman has tried to kill herself several times. What I am feeling is despair.

I am going to take a step back from this website for a while. I thank you all for your help but it just leaves me feeling I am doing her more harm than good. I need to consider a course of action before I come back on here. Trying to validate her feelings is just not working for either of us.

[formflier]

The fact that you can't see it doesn't make it any less so.

Hey... .we are all well aware that we are "reading tea leaves" when we make assumptions about how another person "perceives" a conversation.

Add in "the BPD thing" and you get an additional oddity that HER PERCEPTION of a conversation can change dramatically... .in the blink of an eye

Words mean things... .let's be clear there are no "facts" here... .there are only opinions about how a disordered mind works.

It is more likely than not, that she has perceived many of the communications from you, to be "invalidating".  Should you intend to stick around and communicate with her... .I would focus on this first.

Should you decide NC... .it doesn't matter for this relationship, but is likely a life lesson to focus on. 

Many times when people are in a "dark place"... .they want to know someone is with them and understands them... .instead of hearing solutions to climb out of the dark place... .or... .even worse... being told they are not in a dark place (invalidation).

Said another way... .if you find a friend "in  a dark hole"... .hop down in there with them... .instead of tossing them a rope and telling them to climb out.

I hope these analogies help you understand.  I hope you can focus on the "big picture" instead of small details.

FF

[RomanticFool]

Many times when people are in a "dark place"... .they want to know someone is with them and understands them... .instead of hearing solutions to climb out of the dark place... .or... .even worse... being told they are not in a dark place (invalidation).

I suggest you go back and look at my last conversation again. I did not tell her that her feelings were not valid. On the contrary, I listened to her and examined her state of mind as best as I am able. It is actually invalidating to my attempts to validate to be told that I got it wrong. As you say, this is not an exact science. The fact that she is talking to me in such detail in the mornings is a vast improvement to where we were before.

Said another way... .if you find a friend "in  a dark hole"... .hop down in there with them... .instead of tossing them a rope and telling them to climb out.

I hope these analogies help you understand.  I hope you can focus on the "big picture" instead of small details.

In my experience of working with health professionals, jumping in the pit of despair with somebody is absolutely what you should NOT do. I don't know who on this site is a health professional but I would think that when somebody is in despair joining them in the hole is not a good thing to do. Listening and validating their feelings I totally understand, but we are dealing with a woman who has had depression her whole life. What has worked in the past is me talking to her and offering some hope. She is in a dark place right now. I do not think listening to endless diatribes about how awful her life is and how there is a complete absence of hope without offering some encouragement is what any health professional would suggest to do with a depressive.

I don't know, I am not a counsellor, psychologist or a psychiatrist but I have worked with many of them and they all say empathic responses are what is required. That means an objectivity. What you are suggesting is sympathy, not empathy and I do not think with my ex she needs me to be getting in the hole with her. I could validate her feelings all the way to another suicide attempt.

Forgive me if you are a mental health professional and I have got this wrong, but I am concerned that the advice I receive on here will actually help and not just make her feel there is in fact no hope. I am going to consult a therapist and see if they can help because I really don't know what I am doing anymore. The bigger picture is this: earlier this year she was feeling terrible, we met up and she told me she felt much better - that is why I suggested it. Then she went on a cruise with a family member and this whole situation blew up. She told me her husband had discovered the affair and she couldn't see me anymore. So I walked away. Hence her suicide attempt. I am dealing with a woman in crisis. In the past seeing her has helped. If she doesn't want to do that then I may be best leaving her alone. That is what I going to consult a therapist about.

[Sunfl0wer]

What has worked in the past is me talking to her and offering some hope.

I'm simply suggesting... .
RA

Don't take credit for her feelings.  ... .whether they be good one or uncomfy ones.

It keeps you tied in a manner that does not seem helpful to any relational dynamic. (I struggle in seeing the emotional boundaries between u and her)

Yet, maybe how I am expressing this is not coming out as clear or easy for it to be heard as it is intended.

Just saying... .
Imo, this isn't about right vs wrong, this is about finding what works.  Folks sharing in their experiences, what has made a difference to them, what they have learned, etc. Take it for what it is... .way I see it, it is all mostly kindness to share, connect, try to meet folks where they are at... .best ya can, care to, etc.

Hope you find what works for you!
(Vs repeating what is not.)

[Sunfl0wer]

In my experience of working with health professionals, jumping in the pit of despair with somebody is absolutely what you should NOT do.]

There is a difference between comiseration, rumination on negativity, etc
Vs allowing someone some time to experience their feelings, allowing them to have the emotional climate they seem to feel is fitting for them.

It is not a black/white thing.

It is not joining a "pity party"

There IS a way to be present with someone who is struggling, that does allow them to feel how they feel as a valid experience in the moment.

Yet part of this, imo, is the ability to also have your own emotional experience as well. Not get confused on who is feeling what in the dynamic.

[RomanticFool]

The problem I have with the interaction yesterday is that she just left the conversation when I was trying to help her. At the very least that was rude. What she said was 'damned by faint praise' when I mentioned what nice times we had together.

This is not an easy person I am dealing with at the best of times. I have tried very hard to learn validation skills and I thought it was going pretty well until she left the conversation. I hadn't said anything hurtful or unempathic. You said that you would be angry with my comments and someone else that I had invalidated her by bringing it back to myself. Maybe that is true and it has been pointed out to me that I have a fragile ego. However, our r/s has been characterised by this kind of behaviour from her even when things were going well.

The time has come for me to stop trying to meet up with her. I am going to concentrate on dealing with my marriage issues. My ex has been on my mind and in my heart for too much of my marriage and I need to break the cycle. If she wants to talk to me then I will talk and listen and validate and see if that makes any difference to her. However, she has NOT spoken to me today and I am at the point where I feel like whatever I say will be dismissed by her. She is depressed and has a bleak outlook on life and she needs to find her own way through that. I need to find my way through my marriage issues and see where we are.

So there will be no dramas, no cutting her out of my life, I'll leave her to contact me when her anger has subsided and we'll probably do the whole dance again, only next time I won't be suggesting meeting up or having any kind of r/s. However, for her to say 'damned by faint praise' suggests she wants some kind of ego boost that is totally unwarranted given the distance between us at present. I really don't know what she expected of me yesterday - or any day come to that. In my view that comment isn't just about her wanting me to listen, she wants me to tell her how wonderful she is and bolster her self esteem which is completely on,the floor. How do I do that and maintain a platonic friendship?

[Sunfl0wer]

Idk, I think what you have concluded, going to address your marriage issues, sounds like a sound plan.

Otherwise, seems like an analogy would be trying to work on AA for ones alcholism, but not going to NA to deal with drug abuse.  The issues with liquor ARE related to issues with drugs.

So way I see it is, issues with relationships, are best delt with as general relationship skills... .which would apply to all relationships.  They are not about the other person, but about how we respond to the relationship.

Similarly, alcohol or drugs is not the problem, it is our attachment and engagement in these things.  As long as the liquor is sitting on a shelf, never moved, is itn't an issue.

We cannot put people on a shelf, a wife, and partake of other relationships trying to resolve one without other, cause issue is our own selves... .how we engage.  Not such a good idea to compartmentalize people.  Imo, would be similar to working the 12 steps on alcoholism, while continuing drug use.

[RomanticFool]

Sunfl0wer,

That's all very perceptive. Indeed, that exact point was put to me by a former sponsor of mine ie how can I be in a spiritual programme when I am cheating on my wife? It is all about how we respond to others and the level of attachment and engagement. In my case it is extreme and intense. If my affair partner was capable of having a loving r/s then I would now most likely be divorced. That is the harsh reality. However, I now have to try and pick up the pieces of my marriage. It isn't that I never loved my wife or don't feel anything for her, the problem is my affair partner rocked my world and I don't know how to get over the loss of that. I struggle every day. It isn't just the addiction of wanting to be with her, it is also that I miss talking to her. However, she clearly no longer wants a r/s with me anyway. Her own nihilistic world view consumes her life and she simply doesn't care about how her behaviour or words affect me.

I keep going back to the idea that she has somebody else. I look on her WhatsApp and she has always been on there (it gives the time of the last interaction). She always tells me that she is looking to see if I have been on there but I don't know if I believe her. So many people on here have said that I am seeing things that aren't there and my ego is fragile etc - but if she has BPD then it is very likely that she has somebody else. The suspecting and feeling awful about it is part of the reason the addiction is being kept alive and part of the reason I didn't want her on my FB. I just think I am back to square one again.

I try to be compassionate towards her. To understand that she is ill and suffering but she really has been like that ever since I've known her. How far down this road of compassionate empathy do I go when I am suffering and it is affecting my chances of rebuilding my r/s with my wife? All the while I am in contact with my ex the feelings are going to be kept alive. It once took me 10 years to get over the break up with an ex. I don't know what to do.

[GBKayak]

Hi RF, do you mind me asking how your 'Ex' became your 'Ex' and how she reentered your life ... .or did she never properly leave it? I am sorry for the enquiry ... .but I am new around here.  Your explanation of your conversations and some of the responses on here have my head 'spinning' with lightbulb moments about my what appears 'dead' relationship with my beloved wife, my behaviours and hers!

You may of course choose not to ... .I might have some 'hard' things to say about extra marital relationships.  Not least because 'others' of both sexes have been admitted both physically and emotionally, either deliberately through our individual behaviours or through their 'nefarious' plans into the covenant relationship between my wife and I.  Sadly, I am not quite sure in my 'wifes' case where the 'blame' lies other than with me!  I am not without guilt and I cannot 'throw stones' but I might urge 'moral probity' for the purpose of achieving and maintaining good physical, emotional and mental health ... .;o) Yours Aye GB

[RomanticFool]

Hi GBKayak,

Welcome to the boards. Here is a link to a more detailed version of what I am about to say below https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=313236.10

do you mind me asking how your 'Ex' became your 'Ex' and how she reentered your life ... .or did she never properly leave it? I am sorry for the enquiry ... .but I am new around here.  Your explanation of your conversations and some of the responses on here have my head 'spinning' with lightbulb moments about my what appears 'dead' relationship with my beloved wife, my behaviours and hers!

We have known each other for almost 15 years. We had a 2 year r/s and then she came back into my life some years later (almost 6 years ago). She made contact with me 6 months after I got married. She asked to meet and I agreed as I had loved her for many years. The affair began a few months after.

I might have some 'hard' things to say about extra marital relationships

You would not be the first person on this board to say so. Is this your own guilt talking?

because 'others' of both sexes have been admitted both physically and emotionally, either deliberately through our individual behaviours or through their 'nefarious' plans into the covenant relationship between my wife and I.

You mean you both cheated on each other?

I am not quite sure in my 'wifes' case where the 'blame' lies other than with me!  I am not without guilt and I cannot 'throw stones' but I might urge 'moral probity' for the purpose of achieving and maintaining good physical, emotional and mental health

I have made a decision to work on my r/s with my wife. We haven't slept together in 8 years and have never consummated our marriage. We have been talking about it and both agree it is messed up and we want to do something about it. In fact we had this very conversation today.

I have an alarming ability to bypass my own moral values in order to get what I need/desire. I don't suffer from guilt, which isn't helpful, and I don't regret what has happened.

However, what I am starting to regret is the emotional toll the affair has taken on my affair partner. She would be in crisis from time to time anyway as she is potentially a pwBPD or BPD traits and suffers from severe depression. However, due to my bruised and somewhat fragile ego (not to mention broken heart) I visited the full extent of my emotional pain on her through toxic texts and she was not able to sustain such withering and destructive displays of emotional vitriol. I wish I had been kinder and I wish I had been gentler.

I am trying my hardest to feel guilt towards my wife, but so far I justify what I did by telling myself that every man has physical needs. The problem is I was carrying out a love affair very soon into our marriage and this is morally reprehensible. I understand that intellectually even if I cannot bring myself to regret the times I spent with my affair partner.