Not taking the bait

[Cat Familiar]

My husband and I have a regular routine regarding kitchen chores. Neither of us particularly likes cooking and meal planning and it was the source of a lot of arguments until we started getting a meal kit delivery service when the pandemic began. Now it feels equitable to both of us; six days of the week my husband cooks and I do the cleanup. I like cleaning and I listen to a podcast while I work.

After dinner we typically watch a TV show we both like in his studio. Often while waiting for me, he will get impatient and come back into the house to see if I’m nearly done.

It takes me a while to clean up because he’s a messy cook and he doesn’t clean up as he cooks. I clean all the surfaces and the floor every night and on the one night that I cook, he used to offer to clean, but I told him to take the night off (because he does a very superficial cleaning job and I’d rather do it myself).

Sometimes he accuses me of enjoying my podcasts more than his company, but I ignore those comments.

So last night, he came into the kitchen and asked me if I was coming over (like I do every night). However when I did enter his studio, he was listening to a piece of music and was greatly annoyed by my sudden presence.

He complained that I’d ruined this piece of music and had done so on multiple occasions. I asked if he’d like me to return later so he could finish listening to it. He said no, grumbled, turned on the TV so we could watch “Curb Your Enthusiasm” and proceeded to tell me how *careless* I was for *not caring* that I’d ruined his musical interlude. (He’s a big fan of classical and other forms of music. Me—not so much.)

In light of the show that we’d soon be watching, the irony of his complaints became even more amusing and I had to remind myself to keep my poker face and not give away my true feelings with a smile.

It did strike me as funny that he thought I should *care* so much about how I *interrupted* him from his auditory orgasm, but honestly, that’s not my problem, so I said nothing.

In the past, I would have *apologized* (for what I’m unclear) and assured him that I cared deeply about his feelings.

In any event, the whole episode was completely forgotten within minutes and we enjoyed watching the show.

What ways have you observed yourself not taking the bait?

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[thankful person]

Hi Cat,
As you know I am new to this journey, but I’m certainly making a point of not apologising so much. Similar happens here when my wife is trying to get comfortable on the sofa, and she tells me, “I just can’t do it with you in the room”. I have to hold the baby until she’s ready to take her for breastfeeding. With the first child I used to have to walk to the other end of the house, so she couldn’t hear us waiting, and then when she called I had to run with baby ASAP so that she didn’t get uncomfortable before we got to her. Things are not quite so bad but I still hate being told to get out of our living room but I don’t think I can fight this one just yet.
Today at the park I got told to hold onto our 2yo as she walked up the slide (she was holding on to the edges). I laughed because (there were no other children at the park btw) I worked in pre school for 12 years and I’ve supervised hundreds of young children walking up slides. Despite this being “against the rules” I don’t care much for the “rules” only the safety implications (like if others are trying to go down the slide at the same time then it’s not appropriate and easy for them to see why). Anyway I told my wife that never before had she made me feel quite so much like I work for her (it is a common thing that I say this is how she talks to me). Laughing was totally the wrong and “disrespectful” thing to do, and apparently this amongst other things ruined the whole day as well as the weekend which has already passed which I thought went quite well at the time. But at least I didn’t get angry. And I know this makes things more peaceful for the children so I’m proud of that.

[Cat Familiar]

Well you had a nice weekend, BP, even if your wife did not. 

Our BPD loved ones will have the experience they choose to have. It’s our choice to decide how we want to feel when they are being unpleasant.

Choice is such an underrated term in these relationships. We all have the choice to create our own happiness or to choose to react from a place of victimhood.

[keepitup]

Thank you for sharing your experiences and for your wise words, it's inspiring.

I just lived a similar situation where I didn't take the bait and it feels like a small victory I would also like to share.

This morning, I received bad news (not related to my boyfriend) and I felt very angry about it. My boyfriend who has bpd was home with me at that moment, so I shared the news with him and calmly said that I was angry about it. He minimized it saying it was predictable anyway and laugh a little then went in another room.

He came back minutes later and saw I was not smiling and said ironically that sulking would definitely help me  to solution my problems  and went away again. He came back again minutes later and asked  ironically while grinning at me : "You don't think I'm funny right? I'm so not funny. It sucks that I'm not funny right?" To which I answered nothing because I knew by experience that had I said "No, you're not funny at all", he would have been emotionnaly triggered because he would have perceived that if I said he had a bad behavior, therefore, he was bad. Had I said "oh, it's nothing", I would have invalidated my own feelings and would have felt worse. So he went away again, for a longer time.

Meanwhile, I talked with one of my friends about my issue and she comforted me. When my boyfriend came back to see me, he hugged me and said "I'm sorry I didn't sympathize with you, I have an important job to do this morning and I feared I would be emotionnally overwhelmed and unable to do it if I had talked with you about your problem at that moment, but I will be there for you later today so you can talk to me about it."

To me, it is a victory, because:
1- I did not let his behavior make me more upset than I already was.
2-I did not let his behavior lead me to take the bait and get into an argument with him.
3-He reflected on his own behavior by himself and realized it had not been nice and offered a way to fix things.
4- Months ago, I would have apologize for being angry just because I felt that he didn't like me being angry (even if not at him)... and now I realize I have the right to feel this emotion too and should not apologize for it since I haven't done any hurtful behavior.

In the end, a difficult situation turned out well, so I am glad.

[Cat Familiar]

Hey keepitup,
Good work not getting pulled into the performance! 

It’s amazing how often us *nons* have felt that we should apologize for something we neither understand, nor is in our control, nor is our responsibility.

So many of us are codependents or caretakers and we’ve incorporated strategies to try to keep our BPD loved ones from blowing up, only to harm our own voice and authenticity.

We have every right to feel and process our own emotions. Interesting how we’ve made other people’s emotions more of a priority than our own.

On the other hand, you can see your boyfriend was alarmed by your emotions and tried an ineffective strategy to keep you from feeling them. Isn’t that what we also do when we try to prevent them from becoming upset?

[keepitup]

Thanks for the feedback Cat familiar!

It really got me thinking when you said:

"On the other hand, you can see your boyfriend was alarmed by your emotions and tried an ineffective strategy to keep you from feeling them. Isn’t that what we also do when we try to prevent them from becoming upset?"

I'll keep that in mind!

[thankful person]

Yes! What Cat said got me thinking too, I’m learning so much about trying not to be so wrapped up in my wife’s emotions. And yet she’s always said, “I wish you’d just let me feel what I’m feeling”. And whilst I do want to know what she’s feeling, there’s also a part of me that wishes she wouldn’t tell me or even let on that she’s upset or angry (I can’t tell the difference). She can’t help what she’s feeling though, and I can’t feel her feelings for her. I need to learn how to not be so upset about it.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m learning so much about trying not to be so wrapped up in my wife’s emotions. And yet she’s always said, “I wish you’d just let me feel what I’m feeling”.

It’s difficult for those of us who are codependents or caretakers to not get anxious when our partners are upset or angry—it’s very triggering for us and we want to try and soothe them so we don’t feel so much discomfort.

However by doing that, we are invalidating them and trying to prevent them from expressing their emotions.

It’s been very uncomfortable for me when I see my husband get upset. And like you, BP, I often don’t know whether he’s angry or upset about something.

I’ve had to learn to build a protective barrier around my emotions during these times. Doing so, at first, seemed uncaring and I was accused of being cold and distant…and uncaring. But on deeper reflection, letting him be exactly who he is, without trying to change him, is caring on a deeper level.

Sure, I want him to *be happy* but is my motivation coming from my own sense of discomfort or is it more important for him to experience his feelings and learn to self soothe?

I think what I discovered is that I want to take responsibility for fixing problems that I’ve created, and let him deal with his emotional reactions to issues that really have nothing to do with me.

And the biggest epiphany was realizing that I can *change the channel* meaning that I do not have to stay and watch *the drama*. Learning how to exit in a timely and gracious manner has taken some effort and skill, but I now know that it is of no benefit to either him or me to watch him fully dysregulate.

[Notwendy]

For codependents, our need to "fix" it is our own bait. We apologize unnecessarily because the situation makes us uncomfortable and so we feel pulled to fix things. But when we do, we keep the other person from learning to manage their own feelings- and that isn't good for them.

When co-dependency is looked at in a 12 step model, it's treated as an addiction. That didn't make sense to me until I understood that our need to "fix" something is avoiding our own feelings and that is what people who are addicted to substances do- use it to escape feelings- because we too need to learn to be calm if someone else around us is upset. It's a boundary issue. Their feelings are not ours and vice versa.

People who crave alcohol have an urge to drink and if they want to stop, they have to avoid all temptation. I started to imagine the "bait" as if I had an alcohol issue and someone was asking me to drink with them. Our pull to fix gets us in the drama and drama is a pattern between both people. Once I saw "bait" as being invited to get emotionally drunk with someone, it was easier to catch myself being tempted to "fix" someone else's feelings.

But it's still something I have to work on. These are so much of a habit- but being aware helps.

[Cat Familiar]

For codependents, our need to "fix" it is our own bait. We apologize unnecessarily because the situation makes us uncomfortable and so we feel pulled to fix things. But when we do, we keep the other person from learning to manage their own feelings- and that isn't good for them.

Yes. We feel a sense of worth from believing we can “fix” other people. It can also be described as oneupsmanship, arrogance, pride, superiority. In sum, it makes us feel better than.

And why do we go to this strategy as a default mode?

As NotWendy points out, it is to escape our own feelings of vulnerability, insecurity, fear, you name it—those unpleasant feelings we try desperately to avoid.

Isn’t it convenient we have someone in our lives who acts out in obvious ways so that we can tut tut to ourselves and note how dysfunctional they are without looking at our own issues?

[Notwendy]

Isn’t it convenient we have someone in our lives who acts out in obvious ways so that we can tut tut to ourselves and note how dysfunctional they are without looking at our own issues?

That's one reason. Another is fear. It could be both. A source of self esteem for me was if I made my BPD mother happy ( as if a kid could do that) which often translated to emotional caretaking her, doing things for her ( which fills an emotional need) - and trying to be good enough. Then as I got older, there was a sense of superiority- I wasn't as messed up as that, I was the "good one". This was also mixed with a low self esteem due to being verbally criticized and her changing moods. I also perceived my father as the "good parent".

The line in "Passionate Marriage" not a book about BPD but discusses dysfunction and enmeshment - which they term lack of differentiation-stated this: Each partner matches in their level of differentiation- and then the shocker "and each partner thinks they are the more differentiated ( emotionally less enmeshed ) one"

That was an eye opener- but it started me looking at my own behavior and look at them-not to blame my parents- but to learn where I learned "people pleasing" and the tendency to want to fix things and how this plays out in relationships as adults. Knowing this, helps to resist stepping in.

[Cat Familiar]

“A source of self esteem for me was if I made my BPD mother happy ( as if a kid could do that) which often translated to emotional caretaking her, doing things for her ( which fills an emotional need) - and trying to be good enough. Then as I got older, there was a sense of superiority- I wasn't as messed up as that, I was the "good one". This was also mixed with a low self esteem due to being verbally criticized and her changing moods.”

Me too! This is right out of the child’s playbook of *Trying to Please a BPD Mother who Can Never Feel Fulfilled by a Child’s Love*

Born out of fear and past experiences, that sense of low self esteem and superiority continued into my first marriage with an abusive BPD husband.

I had a lot of emotional issues of my own to work on, but what got immediate front and center attention were all my ex husband’s acting out behaviors: infidelity, drug abuse, financial irresponsibility, and physical and emotional violence. There was little bandwidth for me to look within and wonder not only why I had chosen this man, but why I continued to stay with him.

[thankful person]

Cat and not Wendy, it’s very interesting to hear your perspectives. I love that I can “change the channel”, I shall remember that. Does your husband lay a guilt trip on you when you walk away from his drama? My wife is like, “that’s right, you just walk away, you can’t handle it, you never want to just be with me here and support me when I’m upset.. you want me to share my feelings but then you can’t handle it…” And on it goes. Usually she shouts until eventually I go back to her.
Not Wendy, I shall reflect on codependency as an addiction and look it up. I managed to quit smoking from reading a book that helped me understand addiction. I noticed recently, when my wife took the kids to hospital because I had an incorrect appointment in my diary… Andy she was extremely stressed and upset… and I decided not to apologise… I found this so so hard. And I recognised those feelings that I should be punished for this because I deserve it. With me not apologising, she was ok about it, but it was almost like I wanted to be blamed. Weird.

[Cat Familiar]

Does your husband lay a guilt trip on you when you walk away from his drama? My wife is like, “that’s right, you just walk away, you can’t handle it, you never want to just be with me here and support me when I’m upset.. you want me to share my feelings but then you can’t handle it…” And on it goes. Usually she shouts until eventually I go back to her.

He used to try and guilt me about disengaging from his drama, but not any more.

What changed was that I learned to exit before he gets worked up about something. Also guilt only works if you buy into it. Otherwise it becomes an ineffective strategy that is abandoned when they don’t get what they want out of it—your attention, your apologies, your remorse, etc.

When he did try and guilt me, I’d respond, “Yeah, I’m probably the most narcissistic/selfish/self absorbed/thoughtless/unkind (I’d use whatever fit the moment) person you know. Sometimes I’d add something like “totally sucks to have somebody like me as a partner,” with a smile as I exited.

It took all the *fun* out of it for him and he’d have to self soothe until I made my reappearance perhaps hours later.

By going back to her after she begins shouting, you’re teaching her she just has to up the volume to get what she wants. It’s a common response. We don’t want our loved ones to suffer. But by doing that, you deprive her of learning how to emotionally regulate herself as well as reinforcing bad behavior.

In order to extinguish problematic circular unproductive behavior, we have to be willing to sit with our own discomfort too. We are expecting them to be in charge of their own behavior, it’s only fair that we take responsibility for ours.

And we have the benefit of having better executive function. So why shouldn’t we take the lead, be the example?

I don’t like being called selfish, unkind, unfeeling, etc. However, I know those things aren’t true. Yes, I can do dumb things, not take others’ feelings into consideration, be oblivious about hurting someone’s feelings. Isn’t that part of being human? That’s where apologies come in handy.

But to be accused of bad behavior in general. Nope. Not having it. It’s a manipulation. It’s not going to work on me…anymore…it did for a long time in the past. But now I see the pattern for what it is.

[mitten]

Such great insight in this thread.  Thanks for starting the conversation, Cat!

[CParent]

Sure, I want him to *be happy* but is my motivation coming from my own sense of discomfort or is it more important for him to experience his feelings and learn to self soothe?

I think what I discovered is that I want to take responsibility for fixing problems that I’ve created, and let him deal with his emotional reactions to issues that really have nothing to do with me.

Wow, this is such a great thread, thanks Cat for starting it. I'm learning so much from this forum and really appreciate the advice and validation. Your point about realizing it's your own discomfort really resonates with me. Like so many others here, I'm a codependent and just finding this out after being married for 16 years. Feeling the need to fix his problems was all about trying to navigate my own discomfort and my inability to look inside myself. When he split on me and pulled away from me this summer, I was completely broken out of our old dynamic and finally had the chance to look within myself. That is all I can control.

And I love your advice about changing the channel. When things start going down a road I don't want to me on, I'll remember to take the exit ramp and let him continue on his ride.

[At Bay]

I drive very seldom due to age and needing cataract surgery, and never on freeways, so I order many things that we need online. I'm careful not to overdo it, but dh acts as if I have a gambling habit (I don't go to those kinds of sites). After reading on this forum, I found an answer that was effective. Here's an exchange where he caught on quickly and changed the subject.

Him: There was a box in the mail/on the porch to you, with the usual accusatorial tone.

Me: Only one?

Him: Yeah. What's for dinner?

[Cat Familiar]

Me: Only one?

   Good work! 

We order a lot of things, or I should say I order lots due to our area being a Covid hotspot. My husband orders books and wine. At least three times a week an Amazon box shows up with books. He is a fast reader. The wine comes less regularly. (I don’t drink wine.)

But I’m the one who gets all the packages in his mind. Yes, I really enjoy the laundry detergent, peanut butter, olive oil, toilet paper, and albacore from Costco; the nontoxic mouse deterrent; the 15 pounds of oxygen bleach; the doorknob to replace the one that broke in the basement; the cat food from Chewy; and to be fair, I have been ordering some awesome linen shirts from Latvia and Lithuania through Etsy, but they take forever to arrive.

But I’m the one who gets ALL of the packages. 
 

[thankful person]

Cat I really laughed when I read that, we need a sense of humour right? My wife was miffed yesterday when 7 (small) packages turned up All for me! Very unusual. Actually they are Christmas gifts/cards but she seemed to forget that most days she gets several packages all to herself.
I wanted to tell you that today I identified not taking the bait. We were out shopping and I was just paying for the car park with one hand, and the other hand held shopping bags, coats, car keys and my phone which holds my credit cards. Oh and under all that were the reins attached to our eldest child.. And my wife says to her, “look what’s that?” It was a little Christmas train you can ride on round the shopping centre, just disappearing around the corner. And my wife says to me, “I’ll take her” meaning for me to drop the reins. I was like, “I can’t, I’m holding all this stuff!” And then she was like, “you could have just dropped it all. Child, I’m sorry you didn’t get to see the train because Mama wouldn’t let go of the reins.” And that was the end of the conversation. Because I said… nothing. 

[mitten]

All the packages! Haha.  I get worried every time one shows up because I'm not sure what my uBPDw is blowing our money on... not to mention Black Friday is almost upon us...

Like others here, I'm usually buying dish soap, stain remover, things to maintain the house, etc.  My uBPDw is "just" buying things our kids "need" - like designer name brand clothes so they look cute in her Instagram photos (2 kids 3 and under). 

[Cat Familiar]

I didn’t know until now that many of us deal with the *package issue* 

To unpack that, pun intended, it seems that pwBPD do a lot of self/other comparisons and look for ways in which they aren’t getting their equal share. Perhaps the thought process goes, “You’re getting so many more things than me. Therefore I must not be important.”

I’ve noticed that my husband seems to compare how many contacts we get from friends. He has a larger number of friends, but I have a closer relationship with the friends I have.

These are all behavioral examples of the ways that people with BPD feel uncomfortable with themselves: the chronic feelings of emptiness and an unstable sense of self.

Good for you, BP, for not taking the bait.     It’s so nice when we can experience not getting triggered and responding in different ways than we could have in the past.

Sometimes I just will take a moment and stand there with a blank look on my face and it will give my husband an opportunity to notice his own behavior..or not. 

[Cat Familiar]

Yikes, mitten. Designer name clothing on toddlers! That’s going to get very expensive as they get older.

[CParent]

The package deliveries have been a very, very big trigger in our house too. Funny that’s a recurring theme! He can go on a big shopping spree though.

Yesterday my BPDh was agitated and cursing under his breath. Instead of my go to response of asking what’s wrong, I didn’t even look up. Turns out he was angry I washed his pants that were lying on the floor because they had a lotto ticket in the pocket. “Well that’s a waste of $20!” he said in a testy voice. I just looked at him with a blank face and let him walk away.
When he started harping on other things I didn’t engage, question, or try to reason.

[Cat Familiar]

Yesterday my BPDh was agitated and cursing under his breath. Instead of my go to response of asking what’s wrong, I didn’t even look up.

   The cursing or grumbling used to hook me every time.

I just looked at him with a blank face and let him walk away.
When he started harping on other things I didn’t engage, question, or try to reason.