Guess what I found out last night?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I need friends, that would help. My best man friend told me to put her on the road.

It helps when I go to the hunting club and can talk to some of the guys. Even though we are all different, its just good to get some male bonding.

My suggestion for the friend who told you to put her on the road, if something like that comes up again.

Tell him something like "You are probably right about that, but I'm just not ready to do that yet. Until I get there, will you help me stay sane? If nothing else, hang out with me so I remember what it feels like being with people who aren't nutjobs."

Do what you can to build or re-build friendships.

Does your wife do things to sabotage them, or keep you from spending time with them?

[Grey Kitty]

I need friends, that would help. My best man friend told me to put her on the road.

It helps when I go to the hunting club and can talk to some of the guys. Even though we are all different, its just good to get some male bonding.

My suggestion for the friend who told you to put her on the road, if something like that comes up again.

Tell him something like "You are probably right about that, but I'm just not ready to do that yet. Until I get there, will you help me stay sane? If nothing else, hang out with me so I remember what it feels like being with people who aren't nutjobs."

Do what you can to build or re-build friendships.

Does your wife do things to sabotage them, or keep you from spending time with them?

[Lockjaw]

Sabotage? LOL! She is more subtle about things like that. She told me to go up to the lake this past summer and go fishing with him, but... .I didn't.

She says things like, I am not sitting at home waiting on you if you go hunting. I have yet to go all day this season, I only went all day once last season. I didn't get to go much during the break from Xmas to New Years, and it bothers me right now.

I asked her about making some compromise the other day, where I could hunt all day one day, and then morning the next, and then that evening we could go on a date, then the following moring I would go hunt again.

She is NOT going to be a compromise. And she doesn't want to go on a date with me if I am hunting in the morning. A date is "HER TIME" with me.

What I have done this year is hunt saturday morning, then come home around noon and take a nap, then get up in an hour and shower and pick her up around 4 for a date night. She fusses if I hunt, because I will fall asleep in the evening early, thus cutting into "HER TIME" again.

So... .there is no winning. I don't get to do the things I want sometimes, to make her happy. Which is probably not really happening anyway.

And if I stay up late, say on a saturday night, and get up sunday morning to go hunting, I will fall asleep in my tree stand. Which she doesn't want me in either. I need to hunt on the ground. Think if my kids. People die from tree stands.

Ah the joys of trying to make others happy. I miss the days of me just hunting all weekend long.

[Grey Kitty]

So... .there is no winning. I don't get to do the things I want sometimes, to make her happy. Which is probably not really happening anyway.

You hit the nail on the head there.

She is demanding things of you. Demanding you sacrifice what you want to make her happy. Or more accurately under threat that she will abuse you if you don't. Then when you give up what you wanted, she isn't happy, and abuses you anyways.

Start by accepting that nothing you do will make her happy. Her feelings are her own, and they are mostly driven by stuff inside her head that don't have anything to do with you. And accept that she doesn't know this! She truly believes that what she's asking/demanding of you will make her happy, or at least prevent her from being unhappy. Yeah, she's wrong, but she still believes it, if that makes sense.

The key here is that she's NOT mentally healthy or stable. She can't guide your marriage in a healthy direction, because she doesn't know how. Being the only other person in your marriage, guess who that leaves to provide healthier direction. Yup. You.

Start by doing what they say on airplanes: Put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others. Take care of yourself. Not getting time apart from her is driving you nuts. Going out hunting for a weekend is something that recharges you and makes you feel better. I'm not sure how much of the season is left, but I recommend you take advantage of it, and take a full day or weekend or two while you can.

She won't like it. She may not want to go on a date with you. She may threaten to do something to hurt you by "not sitting home waiting for you".

You have two choices: Give up what would keep you sane, or call her bluff.

This is another boundary you can enforce: "I will take the time apart from you that I need to keep myself sane and balanced."

I hope you are ready to enforce your boundaries against verbal abuse too--she is likely to escalate that in trying to get you back in line. Do you need help on doing that?

[Lockjaw]

So I called her on the way home. She wasn't saying much. Then started in on all the stuff I do wrong. I didn't say anything. She finally made some kind of inquiry, and I simply said I can't say anything to defend myself.

I tried to validate her feelings, but every time she would start listing my flaws, and things I did wrong, I said, I can't say anything to defend myself. I will take responsibility for half of the problems, since I am half of the relationship.

She said something about the things I needed to do. I asked for a list. She said I needed to go back and look at what I used to do. I said I would really like a list of what you expect. She said she wasn't going to give it to me.

I feel like she wanted to bait me to argue more. She kept on, and I said again, I cannot defend myself. It will just make this an argument. All I can do is listen you and try to agree with you as best I can.

She said she couldn't make me love her. I said it isn't about love, but I can't say anything to defend myself.

So,,, she needed to go eat and would talk to me some other time.

[Lockjaw]

I will have to work harder on the boundaries with her. She is upset with me right now. She is out eating because I wouldn't engage, and also because she wants to get back at me for going out and eating while she was at home with her son.

When she fussed at me last night for not answering the phone and messaging her "eating", I simply asked her, what happens when I am on the phone with you, and I haven't eaten and my food comes? The simple answer is she keeps talking.

So tonight, she brought that up again. Implying it was rude. See her expectation really is that I answer the phone anytime she calls. There is no valid reason for me to not answer it, and when I can't, I am doing it on purpose to get back at her. She won't just admit that is her expectation, but... .I can tell by what she says it is.

So anyway... .no idea if we will talk more tonight or not. I got my sons, and they are hovering... .

[Grey Kitty]

I tried to validate her feelings, but every time she would start listing my flaws, and things I did wrong, I said, I can't say anything to defend myself. I will take responsibility for half of the problems, since I am half of the relationship.

For me, that kind of list of all my flaws, all that I did wrong, indicates that it is too late for validation already.

One reason is that you shouldn't validate the invalid. And the idea that all of the problems are yours isn't valid. Whether you did or did not do what she's listing (or berating you for), that isn't causing her feelings, and agreeing to it, denying it, or promising not to do it anymore isn't going to change her feelings.

She does have some valid feelings behind all this, but they are pretty hard to find, and she isn't very receptive to it. (At that time, anyway!)

If she starts into what will become a list of your flaws, but not sounding upset (yet!), perhaps you can simply change the topic. If that doesn't work, time to end the conversation. Which is easy to do on the phone. (Sorry, traffic got heavy, gotta go now. Love you, I'll be home soon.)

Aside: I find that I lack the verbal/emotional processing skills to deal with challenging topics like this while I'm driving. I can have lighter conversations, or even serious ones with somebody I trust and I'm not worried about stepping on landmines with, but not this. Either my driving will suffer (unacceptable!) or I won't have enough attention to keep myself from falling into a fight I would rather avoid. (Not much better, but at least it won't get anybody killed!)

[Grey Kitty]

I cross-posted with your last bit about phone calls and boundary enforcement. Here's what I'd do about it.

I'd start by working out what I believe, and state it in a way that works for me. Purely for my own purposes. Try this one; it is what I would pick:

"I will answer the phone if I am available to talk. If I am not, I will respond as quickly as I reasonably can." (A quick text like "eating" if I could right then, or if I really couldn't touch my phone at the time, some sort of response when I had a chance later.)

You've stated that your gf appears to believe that you are always available to her, even if she hasn't explicitly said so... .or at least if you prove not to be available, she concludes that it was done as an intentional attack to harm her, based on what she says to you later.

The key on boundary enforcement is that you don't have to prove that you are "right". You just have to prove that you will do it. You've got two ways of doing this.

First is easiest, and you did it. Texted back "eating" instead of answering the phone. You might consider answering and telling her you can't talk, and that you will be done in (half an hour, for example) and will call her then. Unless she needed something that would only take 15 seconds, in which case you could resolve it then and there.

Second is not participating in a fight or attack or guilt trip over what you did "first".

She may reject you and avoid you, but you can get about other things in your life. Eventually she will get over it; let her. But don't let yourself get caught in a big fight over whether you have the right to be too busy to talk to her or not.

Does that make sense?

[Lockjaw]

Yes it does, and that is what I did. I never defended, or excused, or admitted my text was rude.

She has learned I won't hash stuff out while working, but she still complains I don't have a couple minutes "for her" during the day.

I did talk to her last night via messaging. The thing most telling is she seems to be unwilling to do or commit to anything.

We went back and forth about my being able to visualize things. She asked if I could see her. I said no, its blurry. (in my brain, like imagining her). I said why do you think I look at you all the time?

She just can't fathom that, and then decided I could teach myself to better visualize. I said, I can't do that, I took classes in high school for mechanical drawing, and also Geometry. I nearly failed both. My brain works different.

But its clear that I am at fault. To her at least. I said I was 50% at fault. That is it.

She says I told you upfront I was a ___. That may be true, but she left out a critical part of that. If you are a ___ and recognize it later and are remorseful, that is different. If you aren't, and most of the time, she isn't, then that is a different animal. It is same with her taking food. She said I said I didn't like it my ex wouldn't share. She didn't say, I am going to take your food away from you and not ask.

So it tells me she recognizes the behavior isn't totally appropriate, but makes it ok in her mind because she said it upfront, even though it was only half true.

[Notwendy]

I'd like to see you let go of this "she is more intelligent than I am" idea because I think it is a source of shame and low self esteem with you- and shame/low self esteem are not emotionally healthy things to bring into a relationship. They can be easily triggered.

I think people tend to seek out others at a similar education level as something they have in common. But it isn't the only thing that can make a relationship work. Someone could have an advanced degree and not have good social skills. Being school smart is only one kind of "smart".

Although we tend to admire advanced degrees, many of the important things we need in the world are performed by people who have gained skills in a 1-2 year post high school program and/or by learning on the job. Most people will need a car mechanic or plumber more often than they may need a lawyer or someone with a PhD. People of all backgrounds can make a huge difference for others.

I don't recall ever having a conversation about congruent triangles on a date. My H and I have not ever discussed the Pythagorean theorem in an emotional discussion. You have people skills to bring to the relationship- communication, listening. You have good boundaries- about your personal time and space, and a means to self care- your hunting. I think when it comes down to it, each person has equal value and something important to share in the world. So own your value.

[Lockjaw]

I will work on that.

I talked to her this am. She is not happy still. I started back on wellbutrin, since i have some, and that seems to have helped my mood.

I told her today I would make an effort to contact her through out the day. I said I can't do things like i used to, I have a boss that is on top of me, and I said also, our infatuation level with each other has dropped. We have pulled apart, and we need to pull together. She didn't like that so much either. She said she didn't want it to be something where I had to make an effort, she wanted me to want to. I said, look, both of us have hardened and pulled apart. We need to soften and move together. It will seem weird at first, but hopefully if we both move towards each other each will soften and then it will change to something we both want.

I can see she is all or nothing. Clear as day. So I am working on trying to get her to admit that we can each view something differently and it be ok.

I guess we will see what happens. I am doing my best not to argue and fuss. And try to have boundaries and get some form of mutual agreement between us. She was really on fire this am. She kept cutting me off. That is going to have to be a boundary I need to put in place. If you aren't going to let me finish what I am saying to you, then I will have to hang up the phone. No one can hear someone elses words if they are trying to interrupt them. I am trying not to say "you" statements too. Even though I heard quite a few directed at me this AM.

[Grey Kitty]

I am trying not to say "you" statements too. Even though I heard quite a few directed at me this AM.

  Keep it up. That is exactly what you have to do.

You learn better ways to interact, how to validate her, how to avoid being invalidating to her, etc.

And you get to see that she does exactly what you are trying not to, and try not to take the bait she is waving in your face.

There is absolutely no getting around how uneven/unfair this is.

At times like this, it helped me to think that all of this "good behavior" that I was working so hard to do was clearly much harder for her. That I simply was capable of more of it than she was. From an emotional strength point of view, she's an injured weakling. Even if I did 90% of the work and took the lead at every step, for her to follow along and do her 10% of the work was just as hard for her as what I was doing was for me.

If two people were going backpacking and needed to make it 30 miles with all their gear, you would think that they should carry equal weight packs to be "fair". What if one of them was 21, just out of basic training, and the other was overweight, had a bad back, and hadn't even walked to the mailbox on his own in the last several years. If those two could even make it 30 miles, you can bet that the healthy one would be carrying ALL the gear.