Need input on conversation

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Last night during a discussion, my dBPDbf got physically rough with me. In short I asked him to leave and go to his one-bedroom apartment because he was getting mad about some little detail and I was exhausted and couldn't cope with it. I asked him calmly to please leave (as per an agreement we have), he refused and insisted on finishing eating dinner, which he hadn't even started on. It wasn't even on his plate. I know him and he was playing mind games at that point, flat-out refusing my request even though I asked calmly. More on the back-ground, why I didn't leave myself and on the incident here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=198064.new#new

Today he wanted to make up and came to see me after work. His idea of making up is to hug and never talk again about whatever it is that has happened. Usually I'm okay with that. However, as the physical part last night was pushing me hard, taking me by the wrists and forcing me backwards, and standing right in front of me menacing to head butt me, I didn't want to let it go just like that. Needless to say we didn't make up. But a few minutes into the conversation today, I had the wherewithal to record it. Here's some parts of it. I would appreciate any thoughts, comments, inputs from you guys. Thank you in advance for reading, it's quite long.

(I call him "X" in this transcript)

(he cuts me off quite a lot, I've put in ... . to show it)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

him - And there you go, instead of appeasing, you egg me on, you're completely hung up on this thing! (calmly asking him to please leave) You say that last night I was violent -- took you by the wrist because there was no other options! You were on my back for 10 minutes! Taking my plate, saying "you need to leave, you don't eat here!", you were completely crazy!

me- But X I was talking calmly

He takes his keys to leave

[cut to]

me- X, normally I give a lot and... .

him -So give! Give! You're perfect! You give to everyone, you've got love for everyone, you have no problems (a sarcastic tone here)

me- Will you let me... .

him - Your life is perfect!

me- Will you let me finish the sentence please? I try to the best of my abilities to understand you... .

him - DON'T TRY TO UNDERSTAND ME, TRY TO UNDERSTAND YOURSELF! Try to understand yourself, to figure out why you become hysterical like that (what he means is that I insisted on him leaving, for him it's being hysterical). Try to understand yourself!

me- it's not...

him -try to understand yourself!

[cut to]

me- Anyhow, in my opinion it doesn't justify... .

him - (rolling his eyes) Here we go again! Here we go!

me- X, it doesn't justify being... .

him - Can't you see you leave me no choice? How do you think someone would react when you block the way like in [name of town], just blocks the way, and I try to leave, and blocks the way like that, blocks the way, and puts herself in the way and doesn't disconnect and... ,

me- X, I didn't block you last night

him - You tried every two seconds to take my plate away! To take my plate away!

me- Yes, I did try to take your plate away. I didn't block you.

him - sighing and rolling his eyes

me- And when you stand five cm from my face threatening to head butt me... .

him - When did this happen? WHEN?

me- (confused) Last night

him - Yes, but when! After what! After 10 minutes where you won't let go! (etc etc)

[cut to]

me- You can't justify the fact that you were five cm from my face threatening to head butt me

him - You pour oil on the fire and act surprised when you get burned!

me- I didn't say anything bad to you, I talked in a calm voice

him - You should have seen yourself! You were insufferable!

me- I repeated myself because I really needed to be alone,  you refused to leave

[cut to]

him - It's all futile, we're always going to be frustrated, it doesn't work between us!

me- I understand. It's normal to feel that way, when there's a conflict everyone feels like that.

And then when we're calmed down, then... .

him - But what's going on in your head? What went on last night when you know! You know! What, you do it because you find it funny? To see how far you can push me?

me- No, never, I... .

him - You do what - why do you insist, insist, insist? Nothing - nothing - and I want to slap you to make you shut up! Because you won't stop

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Mara2]

First of all, good for keeping a boundry and not allowing abuse.  Please keep this boundry in place!

I have been married for 16 years and I cannot tell you how many conversations I have had like this!  I was usually left feeling confused and frustrated, give in to have peace and resent it because he would not take responsibility for his actions. 

One thing I see is that he is projecting his emotions onto you.  You are insufferable, hysterical, you need to understand yourself. 

Do you understand JADE and SET?  These can really help in this situation.  The first thing you said in your transcript was, "But x... " which will push a big red button for sure.  If we start with justification, it will go very wrong. 

It would be good to remind yourself of the lessons on SET and try that.  It does help, but is not a magic wand to make all things better. 

I really feel for you and I know how frustrating it is to have these kinds of conversations.  We cannot change the other person, we can change how we respond to them. 

Wishing you well.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Mara2, thank you for your reply and the support

You say it quite well when you say "I was usually left feeling confused and frustrated, give in to have peace and resent it because he would not take responsibility for his actions". That's exactly it! These conversations are so hard, and often I decide to let things slide to keep the peace. I've forgiven a lot of really bad name-calling, humiliation in front of friends etc. But this, the violence starting to escalated, I can't let it go. As you say, I will keep this boundary in place!

Yes, the JADE and SET. It's a good exercise for me to write this conversation down, because it's much more clear. I see I JADE quite a lot, and don't SET enough. At the same time, my goal for the conversation was to let him know that physical violence is not okay by me and it can't be justified by saying the other person caused it by being too whatever. I really tried to hold on to that and not get lost in the FOG or let him gaslight me. I found it hard to both defend my point of view, and to not JADE at the same time. 

Going forward, I will insist on us going together to my or his therapist to talk about the violent tendencies and what caused it. Of course, I hope that the therapist will tell him quite clearly that he has overstepped the bounds of acceptable behaviour and that violence cannot be excused by saying "you pushed me to it". I do accept, though, that the conversation might be more about me and how I should have backed down because he can't handle it.

I guess I'm quite confused actually, as to weather I pushed to hard or not insisting that he leave the other night and how much I should use SET now in the aftermath of it all.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

One thing I see is that he is projecting his emotions onto you.  You are insufferable, hysterical, you need to understand yourself.

Good point! It's hard to spot it in the moment, much easier to see afterwords, having it all down on paper.

[Rockylove]

One thing I see is that he is projecting his emotions onto you.  You are insufferable, hysterical, you need to understand yourself.

Good point! It's hard to spot it in the moment, much easier to see afterwords, having it all down on paper.

Although there hasn't been any physical violence, I can say that I've had similar discussions with my bf.  Almost EVERYTHING he rages and accuses and blames me for are things he himself is doing.  It IS more difficult to see what is happening when you're in the middle of it and I understand why it's important to keep practicing the tools!  I made a huge mistake last night and began to JADE and he proceeded to rip me a new one!  For the most part, I have learned to shut my mouth and let him say whatever he's going to say, but if he starts name calling, I walk away.  It's a long process.

[arabella]

These conversations are so hard, and often I decide to let things slide to keep the peace.

***

It's a good exercise for me to write this conversation down, because it's much more clear. I see I JADE quite a lot, and don't SET enough. At the same time, my goal for the conversation was to let him know that physical violence is not okay by me and it can't be justified by saying the other person caused it by being too whatever. I really tried to hold on to that and not get lost in the FOG or let him gaslight me. I found it hard to both defend my point of view, and to not JADE at the same time. 

***

I do accept, though, that the conversation might be more about me and how I should have backed down because he can't handle it.

I guess I'm quite confused actually, as to weather I pushed to hard or not insisting that he leave the other night and how much I should use SET now in the aftermath of it all.

Perhaps the problem is that you are even having a 'conversation' about it. Physical violence (or even the threat of it) is never okay. Full stop. There is no conversation. There are no excuses. There is no need to explain, defend, etc. You have a boundary here and it is clear and so obvious as to not require any sort of justification or extended conversation.  

You do not need to back down on a firm, completely reasonable, and previously agreed upon boundary "because he can't handle it" - he needs to learn how to handle it. If he can't control himself you need to call 911. I know that sounds extreme but that's what happens when you threaten someone in their own home. Defend your boundaries, not your behaviour. This is not negotiable for you (nor should it be!) so you don't need to defend anything to him.

Stop doubting yourself - you did not "push too hard" - it sounds like his JADEing is getting to you. And I agree - he's totally projecting his own behaviour and feelings on to you.

[LetItBe]

Perhaps the problem is that you are even having a 'conversation' about it. Physical violence (or even the threat of it) is never okay. Full stop. There is no conversation. There are no excuses. There is no need to explain, defend, etc. You have a boundary here and it is clear and so obvious as to not require any sort of justification or extended conversation.  

You do not need to back down on a firm, completely reasonable, and previously agreed upon boundary "because he can't handle it" - he needs to learn how to handle it. If he can't control himself you need to call 911. I know that sounds extreme but that's what happens when you threaten someone in their own home. Defend your boundaries, not your behaviour. This is not negotiable for you (nor should it be!) so you don't need to defend anything to him.

Stop doubting yourself - you did not "push too hard" - it sounds like his JADEing is getting to you. And I agree - he's totally projecting his own behaviour and feelings on to you.

Arabella is giving some wise advice here.

Here's a response to a thread I started that I thought you might find helpful, too:

Sometimes we just need to let them feel the natural consequences of their own behaviors.  I'm not sure what your agreement with him was, but think about what the natural consequences of his breaking it might be - and let it happen.  Not in a vindictive way, more a let nature take its couse way.  If you kick a rock - your toe should hurt.  Maybe next time you won't kick a rock. 

Perhaps the natural consequences might include a 911 call?  Or whatever it takes to keep yourself safe... .   I know it's been said a million times on this forum, but we can't control anyone else's behavior but our own. 

[Seashells]

Just reading that conversation is an eye opener to me.

It's too familiar, not the violence part, but the blame and projection part.

I've recognized the projection and read the lessons.  For me when things calm down I tend to forget the lessons I learned before. 

I think it was a very wise idea to write it down.  And I thank you for posting it as well. 

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Rockylove, arabella and NonGF: Thank you so much for your kind words and astute observations! 

Seashells: Glad I could help in some little way! This forum has helped me a lot, and continues to help people every day. It's really an amazing community.

Argh, had a long reply then the laptop broke down... . well, try again:

Reading your comments has been very helpful. It's hard to know what's what and easy to get lost in the middle of it. With more distance and your help I see that I definitely must continue to hold this boundary strong and high. You're right, he needs to learn how to handle it and sit there with "blue toes" for a little while. We haven't been in contact any more today.

When we finally do talk, probably tomorrow, I will say something along the following lines:

"I will book an appointment with my therapist asap to talk about what happened. I would like you to come with me. Regardless of whether you come or not, I want you to know that the next time you push me or threatens with violence, I will call the police."

Or maybe just:

Me: Next time you push me or threatens with violence I will call the police.

Him: blah blah blah

Me: Next time you push me or threatens with violence I will call the police. I need to go do [something] now.

What do you think?

I know I don't have to say anything in advance about calling and just actually go ahead and do it. I want to say it though, because he works with his sister giving private lessons. They have lots and lost of high-school students coming in after school and in free-periods. Him being booked by the police could have some serious consequences for both him and his sister.

[LetItBe]

Him being booked by the police could have some serious consequences for both him and his sister.

Natural consequences of his behavior?  

I'm concerned that if you warn him that you'll call the police next time, he'll feel very threatened, and that will lead to some kind of extinction burst.  I'm also concerned that he could try to make it difficult for you to call 911.  I'm curious to read others' thoughts on this.

I'm concerned that this dynamic won't improve without professional help, so hopefully, he'll agree to that if you offer that idea.  I will caution that I've heard MC with a pwBPD can be challenging, though, because there will be lots of splitting.  It's best to go to a T who has lots of experience with BPD.  At a minimum, your T can hopefully guide you in the right direction.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hmmm, yeah, there's always the possibility that it will make things worse. Others' opinions on the subject are very welcome! The more, the merrier.

To clarify: he has been in therapy since December with a therapist skilled in dealing with pwBPD. He got in contact with her through my therapist. Whether we go to see mine together or not (we've had a few sessions together, but not recently) I will take this up with her and ask her to contact his therapist with this information.

[maria1]

He is justifying his violence against you by blaming you. He has pushed you and threatened to headbutt you and he takes no responsibility for his actions. It greatly concerns me that he is blaming you for the violence and that you continue to engage with him.

I believe you to be in danger. Right now I think you need to make your safety paramount and get support from a DV expert/ support organisation. Your safety is more important than his BPD right now.

Please take care of yourself.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Thank you Maria1.

I will try to take care of myself. I will ask for an emergency appointment with my therapist as soon as she opens on Tuesday. Until then, I know I should limit my contact with my dBPDbf as much as possible. Text-messages for practical issues that needs to be dealt with only, and I will be ready to leave the apartment with a bag should he come by. I don't know if I'll be able to keep it up though, to be honest, when he finally calms down and is all sorry. Which he always is in the end. Not that I will want him to stay here with me, but it's hard to shut him out knowing that he hurts. I know, I mustn't forget what he did yesterday! I must really keep it in the front of my mind, that he is capable of violence and that he allows himself to be violent with me. It's not okay! Thank you for your concern

[arabella]

I will try to take care of myself. I will ask for an emergency appointment with my therapist as soon as she opens on Tuesday. Until then, I know I should limit my contact with my dBPDbf as much as possible. Text-messages for practical issues that needs to be dealt with only, and I will be ready to leave the apartment with a bag should he come by.

These are some great steps!

I think maria1 has also given some solid advice to seek further information, support, and advice from a local DV expert. Your T may be able to help you directly, otherwise she will be able to give you the information for local, reliable resources. Use all of the options and resources open to you!

As for warning him about your boundary enforcement, i.e. that you'll call the police, I think it's fair to tell him that when he is feeling well enough to discuss it rationally. Tell him when you are somewhere that you are not trapped, just in case he gets upset. I think the dialogue you outlined is very appropriate. Not conversational - just an FYI sort of thing - much better. NonGF is right, it could trigger him and/or cause an extinction burst - be prepared for that going forward. How? Next time you are in a situation like the other night, where you can see he's starting to push back, make sure you have the phone in your hand before you reinforce your position. Do not let him think of the phone first or you'll have no recourse. Obviously, if all else fails, you must be prepared to walk out the door, go to a neighbour's or local store, and call the police from there. Just make sure you have a plan in place.

[maria1]

An extinction burst in somebody who has already been violent will very likely include more and escalated violence. I am aware that DV advice is not to tell people who are violent what you may do (ie. discuss enforcing a boundary) exactly because of this.

This man does not seem at all capable of listening right now, if at all. He says he wants to slap you because of your behaviour. It may be hard to shut him out knowing that he hurts but if he really is sorry then he needs to take some action to address his behaviour because it's serious.

You need to take his threats seriously. You refer to the physical part last night was as if this isn't the first time he has been violent toward you. This concerns me.

I'm concerned that you seem to think you can deal with this through limited contact right now but that you will still let him in if he 'comes by'.

[atcrossroads]

Holy cow!  This conversation is so very close to MANY I have had with my uBPDh -- unreal!  :)elusional, blames me, rants and rages yet tells ME I won't shut up (when I've barely said two words).  

It is such a clear sign of the mental disorder at work.  

I agree that you did well handling it; however, like Maria, I feel too that you may be in danger.

My husband would often act later (after a day or two of silent treatment) that none of it happened.  If we were able to "discuss" it, it would always become another huge RAGE about how I "lit into him" and CAUSED the behavior.  "Yes, I was in your face.  I HAD to me so you could hear me b/c you were lighting into to me so much.  I HAD to get close to your face to be heard."  

What the heck?  Any suggestion that he get help for his anger would be met with, "I don't like how I acted... . but can't you see how YOU provoked me to act that way" (break furniture, fling things, call me horrid names, etc.).  Kind of like your BF wanting to hug and never talk about it again.  

No, I can't see and will no longer live my life putting up with the abuse.  I became so beaten down and weary of always having to use the tools to placate him when often I had done nothing wrong.

Your BF's behavior is extremely toxic and potentially dangerous.  The physical part is very alarming and needs to be taken seriously.  I finally made my plan and left after a 10 year r/s - papers will be served to him this week.

Be careful, Scarlet Phoenix!  You were very smart to record the conversation.  In my experiences, my husband's rages became worse once I was truly painted black and more and more delusional (in end, he was convinced I was trying to kill him!).  

Hang in there.  Stay strong and stay safe.  You do not deserve this treatment.    

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Thank you all for your advice. I'm hanging in there.

[Rockylove]

I'm hanging in there.

really good to hear that!   

[atcrossroads]

Yes, keep us posted!

[lbjnltx]

Hello Scarlet Phoenix,

So very sorry to hear that you are being subjected to such physical acts of aggression.

Do you have a safety plan in place yet?

The Safety First link is always here on the sidebar in the Lessons.

Let us know that you are taking care of self now and have a plan for taking care of self if a situation like this occurs again.

lbjnltx

[maryy16]

I have had almost that exact conversation so many times with my BPDh!  It is uncanny how all pwBPD seem to use the same reasoning and justifications for their actions!  I felt like I was reading a scene from my own life.  My h too felt he was justified to "move me out of the way" when I was blocking him, usually to keep him from driving because he was in such a rage. 

My BPDh never wanted to talk about the incidents after they happened either.  "It'll just make me mad again if you start talking about it".  And the  "there you go again" and "don't you ever shut up" whenever I would try to talk about his issues is so typical!  And how all the arguments were my fault and he wouldn't have to get mad if I hadn't done "x" or "y". After 30 years I can almost recite the script before it happens!

My fear for you, like the others, is the violence.  Please, please set boundaries.  He has to learn that his behavior is not acceptable and that you will not tolerate it.  Please keep yourself safe!

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi you guys!  

Thank you so much for thinking of me. I will carefully read about the Safety First.

I have a small bag packed in the bedroom wardrobe and important things like house keys, car keys, passport and phone charger in my handbag. My plan is also that if he gets this dysregulated again, I will leave. Actually, I will leave before it gets this out of hand. My handbag is always by the door, so I should be able to grab it on my way out. On second thought, I'll put the small bag in the hall closet. He never really looks in there, just grabs his jacket so I can stuff it in the corner and he won't notice.

We have seen each other today, he had calmed down and sad about me being distant and wanting to make up. I didn't have it in me not to see him. I know I should, but it's hard. I DID tell him that I was still troubled by what happened on Friday. He said he was sorry, several times. I'm not at all convinced that he really takes responsibility for what he's done, the way a healthy person would, but it's something. I will still call my therapist tomorrow for an emergency appointment. I will tell my dBPDbf that I've booked it and that I'm seeing her to talk about what happened this weekend and that he is welcome to come. I he does, great. If he doesn't, I will ask my therapist if she can contact his to inform her and to ask if she in a roundabout way can touch upon this in his therapy. My therapist knows his and did refer my bf to her. We'll see... .  

It's astounding how sometimes it seems our loved ones all read from the same script!   Amazing that something that at first seems so "off" and completely mind-numbingly chaotic and volatile actually has a lot of patterns. I find it reassuring, actually. It helps to see things more clearly.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

An Update:

So, a little time has passed since the day he pushed me, grabbed me by the wrists and threatened to head-butt me . As you can see by my last post, we did eventually reconcile (on the Monday after the incident, which occurred on a Friday).

The day after, Tuesday morning, I  called my therapist for an emergency appointment and got one on Wednesday (which was last week). My dPBPDbf declined to go, which was fine by me. He  knew that I was going to talk about what had happened that weekend.

I was nervous going in, worrying about what she would say for some reason. But it turned out to be very validating for me, she heard me, agreed that my dBPDbf was completely out of line without putting pressure on me to end the relationship, which I am not ready to do. She encouraged me to tell him what my boundaries are regarding violence and threats. She listened to the recordings I had done. And she agreed to call my dBPDbf's therapist to relay all of this to her. In fact, they had talked before I came in, since I had asked for an emergency appointment.

When I came home, my bf jokingly asked "So, is there hope for us?". To which I said yes, and then: "It is important for me to tell you that if you ever threaten me with violence again I will call the police. And if you ever lay a hand on me again, I will leave you". He answered "Phf... .   you don't even know what a violent man is". Me: "If I ever again feel threatened I will call the police. And by curiosity, what is a violent man to you?" He huffed and puffed but didn't really give me an answer. I think he thought I went to the therapy session to talk about how "I'm pushing him too far".

The evening was quiet, but the days following were horrible. He was so angry about anything and everything. The only good thing is he didn't threatened me and wasn't violent in any way. I tried to stay out of the line of fire, but it was hard. I tried to ride the storm out as best I could, but I got dragged into some of the chaos. It was just too much. Yesterday ( = 5 days after I saw my therapist) he was supposed to see his therapist, but the time hadn't been fixed and he couldn't get through to her. And I finally broke down. I think I was really counting on this appointment and when it fell through I just couldn't cope. We had a fight (by words only) and I broke down and could hardly talk because my teeth were clattering so bad and I was shaking, telling him that his aggression towards me is just to much for me to bear. I know, maybe not the best thing to say to someone with BPD. But he did calm down.

AND today there was an opening at his therapist! So he went in at 11.30 and stayed for 2 hours  He is seeing a psychologist/art therapist. She is well versed in treating pwBPD and recommended by my therapist who is specialised in BPD/NPD/anti-social. He came home carrying a bucket of dirty, muddy water which he took with him in a container to go for a walk in the woods! I'm soo curious as to what it means! I imagine it must be something to do with anger being like dirty water polluting his life, or incidents from the past or something. He wasn't in a talking mood when he came home, and that's okay. We hugged and then he left to go for a walk.

All in all I'm pleased by the outcome of today's session, even though I don't know what was said, and I'm pleased that I've set a clear boundary for myself. I've entered all emergency numbers into my phone and I've so far had it with me at all times. Hopefully this will take us forward.