my fiancee wBPD having issue with my some of my kids...

[Circle T]

I'm not sure where to turn for help!

I've posted my back ground but a brief synopsis: Widowed 3yrs, 3 kids (boy 20, girl 17, boy 16) been engaged to for about 4 months, known her for 17 months. I discovered after we were engaged that she has BPD w/narcissistic tendencies, by my own research and this board. My question centers around my kids. She seems to have very little patience with my kids! They are really good kids at heart, but nonetheless they are still kids, works in progress! couple of weeks ago went to a Catholic confirmation service that lasted about 4 1/2 hrs. so kids were a little antsy after about two hours. My fiancée said she was embarrassed because they couldn't sit still. She seemed to single out my daughter, whom my fiancée has/had really taken under her wing... .teaching her how to be a lady, make up, dresses, shoes, hair everything. Daughter's Mom passed away before those things could be taught, and Mom wasn't really that feminine to begins with. But fiancée is so angry with her over something that seems so trivial! They seemed to have such a great relationship, it had it moments where daughter would push back at the idea of wearing certain things, but this is a whole new way of life for her and must admit my fiancée. But to act the way she does towards her is really surprising. I have looked for this type of behavior in book I have but have been unable to find anything that talks about this. I have discovered, the hard way, that one of her triggers is meeting my family! She has a huge fear of being judged, which I have explained to her many, many times that no one is going to judge her! It's like she begins to think of all the things that could go wrong, decides that they will all happen and stresses herself to the point that she becomes enraged, angry at me. This is even when she tells me she wants to go to the Catholic conformation. She then blames me for making her go and takes it out on me and my daughter. Is there a book, area of this site that I can read about this type of scenario and how to defuse, disarm this before it becomes an even bigger issue? How do I change my fiancée's mind about my daughter... .They were growing so close, exactly what my daughter and fiancée needed! fiancée said she always wanted to have a daughter!

Thank you for any help, direction or guidance.

Circle T 

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[waverider]

Fear of being judge by teenage kids especially daughters in law is common. They can be seen as competition, especially as they become more independent and have stronger opinions.

Learning to call a halt without being pulled into mediation is important. mediation often doesn't work with a triggered pwBPD. Whereas knowing where and halt destructive behavior is essential

Also in some ways the kids start to outstrip the BPD adult in maturity. This is a threat.

I had huge issues with this, and before I learned about BPD I was totally ineffective in protecting my kids from it.

Educating your kids about BPD and passing some of the tolls along will help.

[Circle T]

Thank you so much Waverider!

This make perfect sense. I will begin to educate the kids (except my oldest, more on this a little later). I have told them that fiancée has some "issues" due to her childhood and life. I have not told them I believe she has BPD. Not sure how they would react to this. Is it possible to continue with "she has issues" without labeling her? Educating the kids about pwBPD without the label?

My oldest son and fiancée have a terrible relationship. I believe that my son never really grieved his mother's death because he involved him with senior year in high school activities and then moved away to go to college. When he would come home he was always angry and bitter. I had to move forward with my life and after many grief counseling session and courses I started the dating process. I met a lady on line and our relationship took off! She is very different than my wife, but not in a bad way, at first it was great... .heaven on earth. After about 7 or 8 months cracks began to form. The kids had difficult time with her because she was "different" than my wife. Oldest son and her got into a heated argument in which she cussed him out and he was completely disrespectful to her. Before their argument I told both to let it go, which neither listened. Now a few months later any time we have a family gathering tensions are at an all time high and fiancée uses son as reason to get stressed and angry.

Thank you again,

Circle T

[HoldingAHurricane]

Parents need to be really centred and mature to have a stable and trusting relationships with children who can be immature, emotionally erratic, unpredictable, rejecting, demanding, etc at times - all of which are developmentally appropriate things to be for teenagers and young adults. People with BPD are not high on emotional maturity and stability so they are not well set up to be able to tolerate close relationships, especially with kids who are much less invested in accommodating the needs of adults they aren't bonded with.

Though it is likely the kids would have a difficult time adjusting to a new partner, be cautious of placing too much of the responsibility for the success of their relationship with your fiancee on their shoulders. It's not just that she is different to their mother, its because she cusses at them, gets angry about trivial things, and is embarrassed by normal kid behaviour. Unless your fiancee goes to therapy, the best outcome will be, as Waverider says, for your children to be educated about BPD and how to deal with it. In our house, we call it developmental trauma.

On another note, while your fiancee may have always wanted a daughter, your daughter already has a mother (though she has passed) and might not want another. Maybe you and your fiancee could look into some blending families/step parenting courses to get some guidance. BPD aside, blending families is not easy.

[4kidz]

i can relate allot to this. my daughter and uBPDw had a real nice relationship while she (d ) was young. As she grew older and started developing her own personality is when the stress began. We had some really difficult situations to work through. Admittedly I did not do a great job in managing this situation. Fast forward to the present and things are better, a bit more distance now. My daughter is now 21. My advice is consistent with others- educate, (without diagnosing) your daughter to whatever degree you feel comfortable. I tried the " your step mom is a really good person, she cares an awful lot, always wants whats best for you. However there are times that she gets upset at things that seem a bit confusing. Try to understand that she had a difficult time as a child herself and that certain things ( triggers) set her off. Worked a bit when my daughter was younger. Works much better now that my daughter has matured... Good luck...

[Circle T]

Thank you HoldingAHurricane:

I have great relationship with my kids, but relationship with oldest son has gone deteriorated somewhat because of fiancée, which I am okay with. He has thought for some time that she is not right for me based upon his mother/my wife. Have tried to explain to him who his mother was before he was born, we were married 13 years before he was born. He doesn't believe me.

Kids are not bad, they're just kids, but fiancée has a tough time dealing with them. I have started to educate them regarding her and what not to do. For the time being I will limit her exposure to them while I educate them. My daughter loves my fiancée and everything she has done for her. My daughter definitely loves my fiancée and has said on a number of occasions she would love having fiancée as step mom. But their relationship looses ground when my fiancée acts this way towards her. She tries to understand what she did wrong to cause problem. I told her you didn't do anything, she is having bad time. Doubtful, at this time, she will go to therapy or counseling, even though I have been going as a possible way for her to begin to go.

Thank you again for your guidance and direction,

Circle T

[waverider]

It is often the lack of consistency of a pwBPD that causes problems with kids. Kids are quite adaptable, but they need adults around them to be predictable (even if they call it boring ). They are testing boundaries, this becomes more difficult if these are vague or keep moving.

The disorder label is not that important, it will mean nothing to kids (doesn't to most people) they are not going to go away and study it. Learning the tools to minimize dram is all they really need. It is also important to teach them their own, values and boundaries. Do not fall into the trap of teaching them to walk on eggshells to accommodate your partner.

It may be worthwhile to look at your partners relationship with her parents as a child, sometimes this throws up dysfunctional role models she tries to emulate.

[enlighten me]

My exgf had a real issue with my sons. When with them she was fine if I was around but would boss them around if I wasnt. I realised that it had to do with the fact that she feared abandonment and resented the fact that given a choice between them and her she would lose. She was not number one and this unsettled her.

[Circle T]

Waverider you are right on the money wth your point of consistency. She is inconsistent with them and other people as well. One time you talk with her this person is terrible and the next they are all good. It depends on her frame of mind at the time. I agree with you not tell the kids the name of the disorder, just teach them what to do to get along. Earlier in relationship I wanted them to walk on eggshells, before I knew what her disorder was. Not now. Just want everyone to get along, blend and grow. Youngest son will be in college in two years.

fiancée parents are good people, but her step mother never really cared for her or her sister. Step mother wasn't nurturing type and kids from previous marriage weren't her idea of family. Fiancee's biological mom was a horrible mother! Basically abandoned the girls when they were 2 yrs old. Leaving her and sister to fend for themselves, or with strangers, neighbors, whomever mom could find so she could go out get drunk, do drugs, hook up with some guy for a couple of weeks or months then start all over again with a new guy. Fiancee's Biomother is either bipolar or (I think) BPD and bipolar. I've heard that these disorders are genetically inheritable. Met her mom several times and she is definitely one messed up person! She is about 68, but looks like she is 100! I see similarities between fiancée and her mother, not so much in physical appearance, but in fiancée's string of broken relationships and failed marriages. Fiancee doesn't try to emulate step mom or biological mom (thank God). She was kind of adopted by another woman, whom fiancée worked for. THis woman (call her Sara) is a real lady, girlie girlie, dresses nice, hair always done, manicure, very classy and can be glamorous. Fiancee is all this... . just the opposite of her BioMom and step mom. Fiancee considers Sara her Mom. Really love my fiancée and am studying and researching just about everything I can get my hands on, to try to help her. But have been told so many times that if she doesn't want help there is really nothing I can do. Often wondered/thought that there is really something wrong with me wanting so desperately to help her over come this terrible problem, why not just be like the other men in her life and when the going got a little too tough, just bail on her... .walk or run away. Go find somebody that doesn't have all the problems, issues, baggage. But then I think, that may be the reason God brought me into her life was to help her. She has said so many times that I am EXACTLY what she has prayed for for so many years.

Thank you waverider for your counsel and direction,

Circle T

[Circle T]

enlighten me... . thank you for your reply.

Early on in our relationship after she told me her story about her life (see comments above to waverider about her past) and failed marriages and relationships, I have always told her I would never leave her, that that would have to b her decision. Told three things over and over, every day: "I'll never leave you, I love you, I miss you!" knowing that this might help reinforce and strength her trust in me and us. When it come to the kids I told her that kids will be gone and moved on with their lives and it will be just us, with kids (her son and my three) visiting on occasion. In future may be grandkids. Talked to kids, especially oldest son, that one day when they are gone I have the potential to be alone. Is that what they want for their Dad? Kids know where they stand in this... . not really one over the other.

Thank you again for your reply,

Circle T

[waverider]

Take your time to work your way through these articles which should help you determine that fine line between supporting and enabling

Lesson 2:Understanding your role in the relationship

Waverider

[OffRoad]

Hi Circle T,

I see you post about helping you fiance overcome this problem. I get the feeling that you somehow think that all your love, understanding and Grace is going to cure her and she will stop being the way she is. BPD rarely is "overcome". It is usually "managed". Sometimes managing is knowing when to set the boundary of leaving the vicinity of the pwBPD.

Because your kids are involved, you need to be sure you know what kind of effect your fiance might end up having on them. How must it feel to them to have someone rage at them for no reason they understand? They are still maturing, and do not have the emotional investment in your fiance that you do. Two years is a long time to be stuck in a house where you never know if someone is going to start yelling for some perceived insult.

Yes, your kids are older, but from what I can see here, your 20 year old was 17 when he lost his mother, your 17 year old was 14 and your 16 year old was 13. It is likely they are still struggling with the grief of losing her. Then, after only a year and a half, you meet the woman who will become your fiance, and as your children get to know her, this new person in their lives starts raging/arguing/getting angry at inappropriate times or at inappropriate levels.

Your children need to know that it is OK for them to detach emotionally and leave your fiance's vicinity if she is dysregulating. And you have to be OK with it, too, no matter what your fiance says. You don't have to label her, but you do need to let your children know, in no uncertain terms, that none of what she does when she rages is their fault, and that they are entitled to their own feelings regarding what is going on. I suggest you work on validation for everyone in your family, over in the lessons.

It may just be the way you post, but from my side looking in, it would appear that you put your fiance's feelings before your children's feelings. If I feel that way, perhaps it is possible your children feel that way. While I'm sure your children don't want dad to be alone, they might be concerned that you are choosing someone that could be emotionally harmful to you (and to them). As I said, they do not have the same emotional investment as you do, and not everyone is capable of being with or around pwBPD.

[waverider]

It may just be the way you post, but from my side looking in, it would appear that you put your fiance's feelings before your children's feelings. If I feel that way, perhaps it is possible your children feel that way. While I'm sure your children don't want dad to be alone, they might be concerned that you are choosing someone that could be emotionally harmful to you (and to them). As I said, they do not have the same emotional investment as you do, and not everyone is capable of being with or around pwBPD.

An important consideration... .perception is everything

[enlighten me]

Just because you assure a pwBPD that you love them and they are important to you doesnt mean they will believe you. With pwBPD actions speak louder than words. Short of completely cutting my chilchildren out of my life there was no way to reasure her that they werent a threat.

while I thought I was being fair to all parties I now realise my exgf was slowly gaining more and more of my attention. This was blatantly obvious to my boys but not to me.

[Stalwart]

Circle T:

Hey my friend you are certainly not alone in this situation. Like you,  I had my first marriage for 30 years and have two awesome daughters and now have 5 of the most wonderful grandchildren. No, my daughters aren’t perfect, none of us are and grandchildren are no different than other children growing up and learning interactions with adults. One blessing in life is that my wife never had children because it’s all so evident she would not have had the focus or patience or been able to give enough of herself to manage them. Dealing with my children and grandchildren make that so evident. She always followed a path of believing that buying someone something (when they haven’t asked for it) and throwing it at them should result in a huge appreciation of her and the return expectation being respect to say what ever she wanted when my kids aren’t materialistic or respond to gifts in that way. You can’t buy people and they don’t want the stuff, they want the interest and attention that every kid wants. My wife never got that.

Just so you know in the past three years I’ve experienced a huge turnaround in my relationship so I’ll go back a bit to the darker days.

My two daughters were an automatic problems with my new wife. She was afraid of my kids and hugely afraid they would ‘see through her’ and advise me not be with her and put a wedge between us. Call that what you want but it was always a huge stressor for my wife in feeling established in our relationship. Probably more because she could see the close relationship I had with my daughters. The one thing that attracted her most to me was also the one thing she found most threatening to our relationship and it’s stability.

Two years later  my one daughter lived in our downstairs apartment and eventually outgrew it when she had too many kids to fit any longer. It was a nightmare. Having to work between the two of them to protect my daughter (and my relationship with her that has always been close) was nothing less than a maximum stress situation. I was glad when they moved out so there was a t least some distance. The one thing I can tell you for certain as difficult as it was to ride that rollercoaster I always remained true to myself in that situation and didn’t allow her to put distance between my daughter and myself. It’s a good thing she’s a really considerate and non-aggressive person though.

It just seems as though any threat that would take attention away from my wife was unacceptable in her mind. She also knew that criticizing my daughters, their husband or even going near my young grandchildren was just not going to happen and end up well. I’ve always maintained that barrier. I lost a lot of friends and associates, hobbies and interests back when I knew less but hey, I’m not losing my children to anyone. Of course that didn’t stop the problems and it was constant maintenance to manage.

It was not until my wife did so much in our relationship with infidelity, being arrested and making a huge life problem that things began to change. I decided to stay and work on it so enough said about that. I also understood at that time because of her long term dysregulation what was wrong with her.

Point being it was at that time that I had to sit with my daughter who were upset and really could not grasp why I would stay and totally had a negative attitude about her. I don’t blame them, the problems earlier were enough to put distance between them and her but this was beyond acceptable. I really had to open up to my daughter explaining she was mentally ill. I had to try and show them that empathy in a situation is so necessary and had to try and put them into her shoes. I told them I knew it was hard to understand but asked them to support me in my efforts to stay in my relationship assuring them that if I could turn it around I wouldn’t stay in it.

The difference is amazing. Both my daughters stepped up to the plate like troopers. I’m so proud of them for that. My wife of  course now was really afraid of their opinions after everything but they embraced her and started to treat her with more respect and include her more in their plans and plans with the grandkids.

Today she’ll actually pick up a phone to call them and offer to help if there’s a daycare problem, ask if they want things, plan outings with grandkids and has really began building a good relationship with them.

It took the kids intervention and understanding to turn that situation around. It’s a bit more challenging perhaps when your children are a bit younger like yours but not having the problems I did to present may actually make that more positive to accomplish with your kids.

It’s all about focus and working on it together with your kids to turn the dynamics around in the situation, working with your finance in a gentle but calculated manner to build up her opinions of the kids and understand they do support her, but they’re still kids and need her support as well.

Things take time to nurture though my friend and I hope you find the way  to build a bond between them so your fiancée can treat them with the respect and consideration your kids deserve.

Stay true to your kids though my friend – I know to me they have always been and will be my main support system and stay as adamant and vigilant  today as I always have in ensuring there is no distance put between us as a result of my wife’s involvement.

Hope you find harmony in this part of your relationship Circle T and my heart goes out to you in this all too necessary bridge to manage and maintain.   

[Circle T]

Waverider:

Thank you for the information. I will read/study this. Thank you!

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife seemed to create a problem quite often right before my children would come over for visitation to make things uncomfortable.  Looking back on it, I now see those instances were no-win situations aimed at getting mad at me to alienate my children.  She would then go into the ST and ignore me right in front of my kids, even one time throwing their belongings down the stairs in front of us and her mother.  Her mother just sat there and refused to get involved.  I know deep down my wife loves them, but I guess she saw them as a threat to her kids and any relationship I had with them.  She would try and turn the situation around and project onto me and say, "You always start a fight right before your kids come over! WHY?"     

[tim_tom]

I had this issue with my almost exBPD fiance, gf of 19 months. She just had no patience for them, particularly my 9 yo and got mad at them for such minor things. I tried to talk about it 1 time with her and she flipped her lid saying how dare I question her after all she's taken on (my kids, she didn't have any and thus I owed her)

I can tell you what not to do; start drinking a lot, withdraw from relationship slowly, never truly stick up for kids, drag feet on proposing, have her leave suddenly then feel like crap about yourself cause you subjected your children to this and weren't strong enough to kick her to the curb. (I basically just hoped it would work itself out)

So i spent months hurting myself by drinking, developed a bad eye twitch from the stress and she ended up leaving because of them anyway leaving me to feel worse cause I should've put a stop to it 6 months before she left. I shoulda not allowed my kids to be treated like that

[waverider]

I can tell you what not to do; start drinking a lot, withdraw from relationship slowly, never truly stick up for kids, drag feet on proposing, have her leave suddenly then feel like crap about yourself cause you subjected your children to this and weren't strong enough to kick her to the curb. (I basically just hoped it would work itself out)

So i spent months hurting myself by drinking, developed a bad eye twitch from the stress and she ended up leaving because of them anyway leaving me to feel worse cause I should've put a stop to it 6 months before she left. I shoulda not allowed my kids to be treated like that

Been through this, but before finding out about BPD there was no way to reverse it. Once I landed here and learned better managing skills I was able to save the situation. But it also means that with educated hindsight I can see the the period of harm to the kids with guilt ridden clarity.

[Circle T]

Offroad, Waverider, Stalwart, Maroonliquid, TimTom:

I guess that I have felt that love will conquer all, or at least make her more aware of her situation/issue and the need for help/assistance. After reading your reply I have come to the realization that I should have a more realistic goal or else things cold turn out poorly for our relationship. In the past she has said things to me that I failed to see as her way of letting me know of what she needed from me. It was like she was setting boundaries for me so we could advance our relationship. In the past few months since discovering what the issues are I/we have made great progress in our relationship, but it still has moments of turmoil and chaos. I have learned to give her space or "downtime" when she says she needs it. Early in our relationship I took her request for downtime as a precursor to a possible breakup. Know that this is exactly the opposite. I won't give up on her or the possibility of her issue getting significantly better. Have also learned that she should NEVER be coericed or force to do something she doesn't want to do, EVEN if it was her idea to begin with. Took a trip to cousin's Catholic confirmation service with two kids and service lasted about 4 1/2 hrs. kids were a little active to say the least. Longest service they had to sit through was couple of hours. So his upset fiancée that they couldn't sit still or behave for that length of time. She got really upset with my daughter and somewhat with my son. I explained to kids she was just upset with me. Much better now and used this a teaching point for kids and learning experience for me. She asked me a couple of hours before we were to leave that she really didn't want to go, but convinced her things wee going to be good. I was completely wrong! NEVER do that again. My kids are really good kids, but their still kids. Have not allowed relationship with fiancée and me to supersede my relationship with them... . with exception of oldest son, who currently rally doesn't want anything to do with her because of a major fight they had a few months ago. But even that is subsiding somewhat. Oldest son never really grieved his mother's passing, fear that one day he will have to and it will hit him like a freight train. Tried to get him to stay home from college, take classes at local community college, go through grief counseling and get back on track. Wouldn't have any part of that. Daughter and youngest son are over their grief as much as can be expected at this point. Been told your really never over your grief completely, you just replace those memories of your loved one with new memories. In the future will limit kids' exposure to fiancée until we learn and grow together more slowly. I made the terrible mistake early, not knowing there was an issue, that the kids needed a "mother figure" in their lives. They did, do, but fiancée didn't. She has said in past and recently that she always wanted a daughter, but I think she underestimated the amount of challenges that come with having kids.

My fiancée has a lot of great qualities that even my wife of 30 yrs plus didn't have, but wife didn't have quite the issues fiancée has. Wife had issues, but I learned to manage them and work around and through them. I pray several time a day that fiancée will some to the realization that she would have a much better life by admitting their is an issue and seeking help. Have told her so many times that whatever issues, trials, problems we will encounter in our lives, I will ALWAYS be there for her and together with God we can overcome these!

I want to thank y'all for your counsel, guidance, comments and direction. It is certainly very much needed and appreciated!

[Circle T]

Additionally.

It has been my experience that when my fiancée begins to get on to someone, if she continues it only gets worse and worse. In the past if I have been able to redirect or refocus her on something else she doesn't get as heated and it won't escalate into a rage. If she is left to her own continued "venting" as she has referred to it in the past, she turns into a different person. I have made the mistake early in our relationship of trying to defuse her, and it only exploded immediately. I don't ever argue, but don't agree either unless what she is saying I agree with. I let her vent for a little bit, validate her feelings and try to change subject or topic. Would appreciate any comments on this situation, if anyone has experienced this in their relationship.

Thank you,

Circle T

[waverider]

Additionally.

It has been my experience that when my fiancée begins to get on to someone, if she continues it only gets worse and worse. In the past if I have been able to redirect or refocus her on something else she doesn't get as heated and it won't escalate into a rage. If she is left to her own continued "venting" as she has referred to it in the past, she turns into a different person. I have made the mistake early in our relationship of trying to defuse her, and it only exploded immediately. I don't ever argue, but don't agree either unless what she is saying I agree with. I let her vent for a little bit, validate her feelings and try to change subject or topic. Would appreciate any comments on this situation, if anyone has experienced this in their relationship.

Thank you,

Circle T

Try using this tool

What is SET?

Any method will only take you so far, then you have to disengage and let it fun its course. Your very interaction then becomes the avenue for venting and you become the target.

[tim_tom]

Offroad, Waverider, Stalwart, Maroonliquid, TimTom:

I guess that I have felt that love will conquer all, or at least make her more aware of her situation/issue and the need for help/assistance. After reading your reply I have come to the realization that I should have a more realistic goal or else things cold turn out poorly for our relationship. In the past she has said things to me that I failed to see as her way of letting me know of what she needed from me. It was like she was setting boundaries for me so we could advance our relationship. In the past few months since discovering what the issues are I/we have made great progress in our relationship, but it still has moments of turmoil and chaos. I have learned to give her space or "downtime" when she says she needs it. Early in our relationship I took her request for downtime as a precursor to a possible breakup. Know that this is exactly the opposite. I won't give up on her or the possibility of her issue getting significantly better. Have also learned that she should NEVER be coericed or force to do something she doesn't want to do, EVEN if it was her idea to begin with. Took a trip to cousin's Catholic confirmation service with two kids and service lasted about 4 1/2 hrs. kids were a little active to say the least. Longest service they had to sit through was couple of hours. So his upset fiancée that they couldn't sit still or behave for that length of time. She got really upset with my daughter and somewhat with my son. I explained to kids she was just upset with me. Much better now and used this a teaching point for kids and learning experience for me. She asked me a couple of hours before we were to leave that she really didn't want to go, but convinced her things wee going to be good. I was completely wrong! NEVER do that again. My kids are really good kids, but their still kids. Have not allowed relationship with fiancée and me to supersede my relationship with them... . with exception of oldest son, who currently rally doesn't want anything to do with her because of a major fight they had a few months ago. But even that is subsiding somewhat. Oldest son never really grieved his mother's passing, fear that one day he will have to and it will hit him like a freight train. Tried to get him to stay home from college, take classes at local community college, go through grief counseling and get back on track. Wouldn't have any part of that. Daughter and youngest son are over their grief as much as can be expected at this point. Been told your really never over your grief completely, you just replace those memories of your loved one with new memories. In the future will limit kids' exposure to fiancée until we learn and grow together more slowly. I made the terrible mistake early, not knowing there was an issue, that the kids needed a "mother figure" in their lives. They did, do, but fiancée didn't. She has said in past and recently that she always wanted a daughter, but I think she underestimated the amount of challenges that come with having kids.

My fiancée has a lot of great qualities that even my wife of 30 yrs plus didn't have, but wife didn't have quite the issues fiancée has. Wife had issues, but I learned to manage them and work around and through them. I pray several time a day that fiancée will some to the realization that she would have a much better life by admitting their is an issue and seeking help. Have told her so many times that whatever issues, trials, problems we will encounter in our lives, I will ALWAYS be there for her and together with God we can overcome these!

I want to thank y'all for your counsel, guidance, comments and direction. It is certainly very much needed and appreciated!

I wish you well, ultimately the guilt that plagued me and my current belief is that if a women in my life is going to treat my kids like second class citizens (and expecting them to be perfectly behaved is doing that) then she doesn't belong in my life. Now, my situation is different, we were talking about having our own kids together.  I knew that if we had our own children, my kids would be separate and not equal and basically not wanted around after some time, outsiders. Also I was always struck by how more patient she was with her blood related niece (who was way worse behaved) then she was with my kids. She basically grew over time to have zero tolerance for my kids acting like kids

[Circle T]

I have spent the past few days thinking and running through my mind the events that have cause my fiancée to lash out my kids. This is what I have come up with. Please let me know if this is something that pwBPDso do and are fearful of. My fiancée genuinely loves me and knows that her wanting me to do certain things is greater than the things I ask of her (not that this matters to me). When I have asked her to go on trips (twice) to meet my family it has not ever gone well or as well as her or I would have liked. A trip to meet my parents in another state ended with the kids taking most, if not all the blame for the trip going badly. A recent trip to meet the rest of my small family went better than the previous trip but not good either. Just before both trips she said she didn't want to go. I believe that she is so very afraid of being judged because of her past that this fear takes hold of her and she takes it out on someone, which is my kids. Not sure why she doesn't take it out on me, I'm the one who asked her to go. The last trip she took it out on my daughter, whom she seemed to have a great relationship wit a lot of female bonding going on... .shopping, dressing, hair, make up, etc. Now three weeks later things are great again with her and my daughter. I have talked my daughter about her, in non-labeling way, just so she understands how to take the venting, anger and moods. When fiancée and daughter are bonded together in an activity it brings me such joy and happiness, especially in light of my daughter not having a mother to do those things with and I know that my fiancée will be there for all my daughter's life experiences: prom, graduation, college sorority, marriage, grandkids, etc. Question in all of this, is this her being so very afraid of being judged and (in her mind thinking I'll leave her) being abandoned because of her past, that she tries to give me or others reason to leave her so it won't be her fault I left? (if that makes any sense) Its hard for me to put it into words... .like double reverse psychology... .I have told her many times that I'm not leaving her, and even though she has given me plenty of times to do so I have remain steadfast and loving.

The first few times early in our relationship she lashed out at me I thought, "I'm outta here!... .I'm not going to take this." But stayed realizing that no rational person would act this way to a person like me... .loving, kind. Then when I started acting differently when she would lash out at me, things changed even more. Before I knew what the possible issue was, I would give her a hug and tell her how much that I loved her, and that I would never leave her like the others did in her life, she started to change with each episode. Still do the same thing when she gets angry. Seems to be working, but she still has her times of anger and lashing out at me. Now just want to work on relationship with kids.  Any advice, guidance, direction or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Circle T

[OffRoad]

People with BPD have a tendency to create that which they fear: abandonment. If they can push you far enough and you leave, then they can say "See, he really was going to leave." and blame it on you. Some, if they think that the person they are with is going to abandon them, with preemptively do the abandoning.

I find that children often get the brunt of any dysregulation simply because they ARE children and are perceived as having both less and more power. She may fear that you will put your children first (as it should be, IMO) without realizing that doesn't mean there is nothing left for her. Some people (and it sounds like you may be one of them) have plenty of love to go around for everyone. But a pwBPD doesn't see that. Children who are not yet of age can not just move out and live on their own. They will often give up their own power to keep the peace (happens in abusive homes all the time). A pwBPD recognizes that these children are "stuck" with whatever they can push off on them (blame). Many pwBPD are masters at picking fights and making it someone else's fault. My H used to try this with our kids, and I told him it was unacceptable and removed the children and myself from the vicinity. A few times of his realizing I was not going to allow him to bully the children because he felt out of control and it became a rare occurrence.

It is my opinion that when the children are no longer available for the blame, it will be turned on you.

As an aside I have found with my H, rather than taking him to meet someone I want him to meet, if I can bring them to him it works out better. Then he is on his own turf, per se. It's not always possible, but when it is, it works better.

Did you know why she decided at the last minute she didn't want to go? Was she feeling uneasy?

[Circle T]

Thank you Offroad.

I think the reason for her wanting to bail at the last minute is her deep fear of being judged and then abandoned. She has said on multiple occasions that she doesn't deserve me, especially with her past. Married and divorced multiple times and fail relationships since the last marriage. My back ground married to same woman for over 30 yrs, etc. I have told her everything about me, that I have kept hidden all the junk in my truck, and its a big trunk! Also tell her "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It doesn't seem to matter, though she is getting better about the deserving me part. But she seems to believe/think that she is the only one with a past, junk in the trunk! I tell her almost daily, I don't care about her past, I only care about her future. So when she get around my family she thinks we are some sort of God's chosen ones that have never sinned, and thus she feels inferior. There are a couple in my family that do believe that, but the rest of them are just down to earth people (salt of the earth type people) that would never judge her because they themselves have a past. She even feels this way towards her step mom. I have also told her that whatever "respectability", "honor", "character" or self worth she thinks I have gained by living a "righteous" life, I share and give to her. By the fact (if this were a fact) that I may have those things in the eyes of others, by me choosing to be with her, according to her, an unrespectable, undeserving woman, she should now become respectable in the eyes of others just by me choosing to be with her!  I believe that is what really scares her. Her own family members know all of her past and are okay with it. There are time when arguments get hated between her and her other family members and they resort to digging up her past, which devastates her. But for the most part she is okay with her own family. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that over time I believe she will come to understand that she never has to fear anyone in my family. Even the couple of self-righteous knuckle heads! I believe over time she will come to trust me and truly believe in her heart and head that I'm never going to judge her or abandon her.

She has in past lashed out, blow up at me and still does occasionally when she gets stressed.

On another slightly different topic. She (my fiancée) seems to have trouble completing small tasks. Such as she'll get something out of the cupboard, then not shut cupboard door, same thing with something out of a drawer. When she takes off her clothes after running or work, wherever she happens to be when she decides to take them off that's where they'll be. Her house is unkept, she washes dishes when she has exhausted the dishes, silverware and plastic ware. For the past several months I have been doing the dishes, run dishwasher cleaning kitchen. I have also put away clothes. One time I took three days while she was out of town on business and hung up, folded and put away almost every piece of clothing she has. That was in December, it is now April and it looks the same as it did three months ago before putting clothes away. Wondering if this is something common with pwBPD?

Thank you again offroad,

Circl T

[OffRoad]

I believe over time she will come to trust me and truly believe in her heart and head that I'm never going to judge her or abandon her.

I can't say whether she will or she won't, as each person is different, BPD or non. But I suggest having absolutely no expectations that she is going to "get better", as it were. She could well get worse (upping the ante to prove she is "unworthy". All the love in the world will not necessarily change a person who believes themselves to be fundamentally  flawed.

On another slightly different topic. She (my fiancée) seems to have trouble completing small tasks. Such as she'll get something out of the cupboard, then not shut cupboard door, same thing with something out of a drawer. When she takes off her clothes after running or work, wherever she happens to be when she decides to take them off that's where they'll be. Her house is unkept, she washes dishes when she has exhausted the dishes, silverware and plastic ware. For the past several months I have been doing the dishes, run dishwasher cleaning kitchen. I have also put away clothes. One time I took three days while she was out of town on business and hung up, folded and put away almost every piece of clothing she has. That was in December, it is now April and it looks the same as it did three months ago before putting clothes away. Wondering if this is something common with pwBPD?

Thank you again offroad,

Circl T

I asked a similar question since my H has a hard time finishing anything. We have so many projects that are 3/4 done it isn't funny. But the general consensus was that it's probably an individual thing. Some people are messy and some aren't. I learned to go somewhere down the middle. No dirty dishes anywhere except the kitchen. Projects in X location or put away. Projects may not be left in X location longer than three weeks. And then I put a laundry hamper exactly next to where he dropped his clothes, but he didn't leave them in several places, just one big pile.  People sometimes improve in that area when they move in with someone else, but usually what you see is what you get. That is just my experience, though.

[waverider]

Fear of being judged is a major motivating factor. This feeling of not being "up to standard" overwhelms her and she then soothes this by projecting it on to someone else.

You being understanding/forgiving, is received almost like charity, which validates their own sense of being lessor. So inadvertently reinforcing it.

The problem with her being kind then harsh to your kids is that they can take on BPD insecurities, they are also being taught not to believe people are genuine and waiting for the other foot of criticism to fall. This is the type of environment that breeds BPD.

As far as not completing tasks, closing doors, putting things away etc. This comes down to motivators. These being mainly impulse, need and immediate gratitification. Obligation and responsibilty are low motivators. ie I need something out of the cupboard. I dont have a need to close the door, closing the door is my responsibility/obligation.

You will find this principle applied to everything she does, hence making boundaries about closing doors, will be stressful for you and even if you succeed it barely scratches the surface of the problem as stuff is still left on the floor, lights not turned off, shopping not put away, doors left open, bed not made, phone never charged until it goes flat, sink is left a mess, milk not put back in fridge, and so on.

If anyone has an answer for this, please let me know. I am still applying acceptance to a lot of this little stuff (as individually they are) as prefer not to stress over stuff I seem incapable of changing.

Doing stuff like this for her simply enables it. Most people would feel embaressed and take action not to be embaressed again. Unfortunatley pwBPD don't react that way. She will let you do it then take it as passive aggressive criticism, feel bad then rather take action to prevent it they will go into victim mode feel like they are being judged, and go back to the original reaction to being judged that you raise in your first point.

ie they don't learn and grow, effectively they self sabotage and create more of the condition on which they are afraid they are being judged.

[waverider]

Some people are super organised almost to OCD levels, this comes out of fear of not being in control, both are dysfunctional

Whatever the case with pwBPD it is often one extreme or the other.