Realistic expectations

[unicorn2014]

If you would like to read about some "benign"   problems, read on.

I got hung up on this morning. I finally called him after meditating, and he didn't even know what day it was. He's got the flu, he's living in a basement, all because he wasn't planning to be there this winter.

I was reading over the validation tools and I just don't have it in me to validate him.

I told him while he was dealing with having to make some changes because some pieces fell apart on his plan, I told him I was having to deal with feeling angry that I've put on hold for 3 years.

I had asked him if his plan to leave his location was an escape plan and he got really offended. I reminded him that previously he was free to go where he pleased and not have to end his marriage. His wife allowed him to move to another country for a couple of years without having to divorce her.

I'm trying really hard to focus on my own life and get things done.

He said he was in a relationship and wanted to be with the person he was in love with, me. I told him he started a new relationship without finishing his old one.

I also told him this was not a good thing to talk about as I was containing a lot of anger about the situation. In other words I was telling him that while he was feeling irritated with me for telling him he was trying to escape his problems I was feeling angry that my life had been put on hold by a man who wasn't available to be in a relationship .

He ended the call abruptly by saying something along the lines of we should go now, I'm going to get back to work, I love you very much. I said to him I don't know what to say to that, so if you need to hang up, go ahead, and he did.

So here I am.

I put my phone in do not disturb mode in case he tried to call back.

I feel sad.

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Also, I wanted to continue the discussion on something Chump brought up on my "should I uphold this boundary thread." Just so you know, I got an "ok sweetie" from my pwBPD when I told him I was going to meditate.

Chump wrote

If you don't like him calling you "sweetie" tell him nicely and live with the consequences.  He gets to decide how he responds to that request.  And yes, some of your boundary setting may be relationship threatening.  That's often how people in dysfunctional relationships wield power against each other, by threatening to end the relationship.

So today my wBPD said "then we should go now" when I told him I was feeling angry that my life had been put on hold by a man who wasn't ready to be in a relationship with me.

Being told "then we should go now, I'm going to get back to what I was working on (he has a project due today, Friday, and he thought today was Thursday), I love you very much."

That didn't do anything for me, and when I told him that he hung up on me.

Like I said I put my phone in do not disturb mode and came here.

To be honest, I don't really care if he loves me very much.

(I also feel mad, on top of feeling sad. )

The reason I brought up Chump's post is previously in my relationship my wBPD would say "then we should end the relationship" if I talked about feeling angry because my life's been put on hold by an unavailable man. So I guess he's made some progress because now he just ends the phone call.

I'm still not happy.

I know you (the staying board) have said that's what my pwBPD is doing to manage his unmanageable feelings, hang up on me, and its a good thing, rather then blow up at me and call me names.

I don't know how much longer I want to hang around in a relationship where a person can't even manage their own emotions, to be honest.

Furthermore I don't know how much longer I want to be in a relationship where I always have to validate his emotions. What about mine? I have to validate mine, and then his on top of mine? That's definitely not fair, and you (the staying board) have told me that's the way it is in a BPD relationship.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

   I told him while he was dealing with having to make some changes because some pieces fell apart on his plan, I told him I was having to deal with feeling angry that I've put on hold for 3 years.  I had asked him if his plan to leave his location was an escape plan and he got really offended. I reminded him that previously he was free to go where he pleased and not have to end his marriage. His wife allowed him to move to another country for a couple of years without having to divorce her.    

          Unicorn, I think he did a wise thing by saying he needed to go.  In my opinion, you, he and your relationship would have been better off is you had not called and "told" him these things.  If you feel that you are not able to validate him, the best thing for all is to avoid calling him.    Remember, we just had a great thread and made some important decisions THAT YOU NEED SPACE!  Please stay focused on that and TAKE ACTION on your understanding that you need space.  Listen:  Here is the visual of what I see happening in your phone call today.  You worked on yourself, realized that you couldn't validate but called him anyway.  This is like grabbing a can of gas, splashing some on him, and then tossing a match on for good measure.  Once he realized what was happening, he said he need to go (get a fire extinguisher).  Do you get the visual?  I don't see anything in your exchange what was supportive.          

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF if I hadn't called him he would've complained about that. Usually we talk every morning. What am I supposed to say to him? I don't want to talk to you because I'm angry with you? I know I need to take some space. I don't know how. Can you help me?

[formflier]

       

FF if I hadn't called him he would've complained about that. Usually we talk every morning. What am I supposed to say to him? I don't want to talk to you because I'm angry with you? I know I need to take some space. I don't know how. Can you help me?

         Again, this is exactly why SPACE is better.  Don't call him.  Saying you can't talk to him because you are angry is very likely to be much better for everyone that what actually happened.  I can give you advice and talk things through, but only you can TAKE the space you need.   You are worth it.  You will decide to take action, or not.  Honestly, he is not involved in this.  It's your decision.          

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier I was able to apologize for what I said and say I needed to take space from him because I was feeling angry. I worked it out so next time I could tell him I having to deal with some anger and would like to talk to him later and he would say ok.

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Formflier I want you to understand that I am not seeking him out to have a conversation with him. He's texting me, wanting to talk to me, and I'm calling him back rather then texting him. I'm not the one who initiated this. That being said we worked through our problem and I was able tell him how I feel. It didn't change anything but at least now I know I can tell him I'm feeling angry or hurt or sad and don't want to talk right now and he won't accuse me of trying to break up with him and he will let me call him later when I feel up to it. So that's progress because that's the first time we've had that conversation. I attribute that to the staying board.

[formflier]

  --- Formflier I want you to understand that I am not seeking him out to have a conversation with him. He's texting me, wanting to talk to me, and I'm calling him back rather then texting him.   

         This is what is frustrating me, that it's not getting through to you.  None of those details matter.  You are not in a position to talk (in this case not being able to validate) so don't talk or text.  Let him text all day.  Let him leave voice mails all day.  He will figure it out.  This is not the place to "bargain" and get him to "make a deal" on what he will say.    Do you really believe if he gets emotional that he will honor the deal?  0% chance of that.  You don't need his permission.  Perhaps you are too focused on being polite?           

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, probably politeness, but I did get him to agree that he would not accuse me of trying to break up with him just because I was trying to take some space because I was angry.

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Remember he looks down on validation.

[formflier]

       

FF, probably politeness, but I did get him to agree that he would not accuse me of trying to break up with him just because I was trying to take some space because I was angry.  ---- Remember he looks down on validation.  

         So, what are you going to do when he accuses you of breaking up with him just because you are trying to get space because you are angry.  Basically, what happens when he doesn't follow the agreement?          

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier good question. Come here?

[unicorn2014]

Formflier I do want to report a success. He said to me "I enjoy your company" and I said I know you do and he said "I know you enjoy mine too" and I asked him if he was looking for reassurance. I could not say I enjoy his company too because even though we talked on the phone today that didn't change anything. So I excused myself to go for a run even though I could tell he was hurt.

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You are right, I can not validate him right now, and he's asking for my validation even though he doesn't know it/won't admit it.

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So, would you say I handled that exchange "correctly"?

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I wish this wasn't so hard, its really difficult.

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Today I had to tell my dentist when she asked that  the reason there wasn't a wedding planned yet is because he is not divorced yet and she said she didn't know there was another woman. Then she asked me if he was still going to move out here and I said not until he got his divorce complete.

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See he was fine with people not knowing he was married, because it didn't mean anything to him, however the rest of the world functions under the premise that if you're engaged, your fiancé is not married to someone else.

[formflier]

   Ummm, ok, I'll bite.  Why did you "have to" tell your dentist about that?  How are things going with taking the space you need.  It sounds like there is still lots of contact.          

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I wasn't baiting you, it sounds like I misrepresented myself. My dentist asked me when the wedding is. My dentist has met him. He came with me to dental appointments.

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I just took some space from him, that's what I was telling you, we were on facetime together doing a chat I had invited him to, and then I told him I had to go for a run.

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I don't really want to be home alone tonight, my daughter went out.

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I just need to run off my dental visit and what happened today with him.

[formflier]

Formflier, I wasn't baiting you, it sounds like I misrepresented myself. My dentist asked me when the wedding is. My dentist has met him. He came with me to dental appointments.    

         I still don't understand why the dentist needs to know about his marriage, divorce and all that others stuff.  She asks when the marriage is, you can reply that a date hasn't been set.  If you feel the need you can say you hope to set a date soon.  Taking space will feel uncomfortable.  Lonely.  You know you need it.  Calling him to get rid of those feeling is NOT taking space.          

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I don't know how much longer I want to hang around in a relationship where a person can't even manage their own emotions, to be honest.

Furthermore I don't know how much longer I want to be in a relationship where I always have to validate his emotions. What about mine? I have to validate mine, and then his on top of mine? That's definitely not fair, and you (the staying board) have told me that's the way it is in a BPD relationship.

You are correct--there are a lot of unfair things about being in a relationship with a pwBPD.

How much longer do you want to be in this kind of relationship?

That is a really tough question, a really hard question. And a really important question.

If you are spending all your emotional energy dealing with what to tell him in each specific conversation, and afraid he will dysregulated if you share how you are really feeling, you may not have the space to think about bigger questions like these.

That's a real benefit of taking space.

I remember when I went on a 10-day silent mindfulness meditation retreat; it was at a crisis time in my marriage. It was very hard. It was also one of the kindest most generous things I've ever given myself. I left that retreat with some really clear understanding about my wife.

1. I loved her, and wanted to stay with her.

2. Our marriage as it was was unhealthy for me, and I might have to leave it in order to save myself from being destroyed, or turned into a weak shadow of myself. I knew it had torn me down already. I was willing to leave if I had to in order to save myself.

The space I had to find those things deep inside myself was a true gift.

I'm not suggesting that you can go on that kind of retreat, or even that it would be good for you. My point is you really do need some space to look at the bigger questions and how you feel about them.

[unicorn2014]

Form flier ,

I'm not calling him to get rid of those feelings.

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He hung up on me a second time today, just now, when I told him that he was judging me by telling me my feelings were unfortunate.

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He had sent me a happy  picture he took of me , and then he said "that was another time". That of course made me angry. Yes, that was before I found out his divorce wasn't filed.

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So, he gets to hang up on me twice today and I'm supposed to want to be in a relationship with him? I don't get how that works at all.

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In regards to the dentist I'm glad she asked me that because I don't want to keep his secret that he's not divorced yet.

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I'm having a really hard time not blaming myself for accepting his marriage proposal under the circumstances in which I did. I was far more naive and inexperienced 3 years ago. My problems with him made my problems with my ex look like a piece of cake.

[unicorn2014]

Grey wrote

ou are correct--there are a lot of unfair things about being in a relationship with a pwBPD.

How much longer do you want to be in this kind of relationship?

That is a really tough question, a really hard question. And a really important question.

Thank you.

I guess I have an opportunity to practice that tonight after he hung up on me because I told him he was pushing me away.

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I feel hurt and I'm sick of him mirroring me. I told him I was having a really hard time trying to stay connected to him when he kept pushing me away. He said me too, I'll talk to you tomorrow, and hung up on me.

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I'm supposed to put up with that? If I behaved like that I'd have to pay for it.

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Every bone in my body wants to call him back and give him a piece of my mind but I am going to resist the urge.

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I am not happy.

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I have to repeat myself, if I did that I would be punished.

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No things are not fair and no I don't know how long I can deal with that.

*****

Let me finish by saying that he thinks our problems are due to temperament differences and not a personality disorder and that really frustrates me. I think he's hidden behind his temperament his whole adult life as if somehow that excuses things. I'm not buying it. That sounds like excuses for bad behavior to me.

(Today we talked about how it was that he had no idea his lawyer hadn't filed his divorce )

[Grey Kitty]

  You sound very legitimately frustrated.

Sounds like when you try to take space, he sees it as rejection, and makes it a point to reject you back in a tit-for-tat way. UGH.

All you can do is work on cleaning up your side of the street. Fighting fair when he's really got you upset is a hard skill. But if you can do it with him... .that skill will serve you very well in all sorts of ways for you, when anybody else in your life becomes difficult.

Take your space, hang in there, and be as gentle to yourself as you can be.

[formflier]

  A day or two ago we had a great thread and you clearly expressed the understanding that you need space.  Why are you not taking that space?  I'm not interested in how many times he is calling and hanging up and calling back.  I'm interested in you taking action to care for a need you have clearly defined.          

FF

[unicorn2014]

Grey kitty, that's exactly what he's doing! It's why I'm walking on eggshells about taking space. We had worked out an understanding today and then he asked me for reassurance this evening and I couldn't give it to him. To further complicate things he sent me that picture, and then did a bait and switch.

How do you fight fair under those circumstances?

I agree it would serve me well with other difficult people such as my ex, my dad, my brother.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, it's because things wax and wane. We're getting along fine and then he says something triggering and then starts all over again. It's exhausting .

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Grey kitty nailed it when he said my SO sees space as rejection and throws it in my face.

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My r/s is very much a tit for tat r/s on his side. I can't stand it.

[Grey Kitty]

Grey kitty, that's exactly what he's doing! It's why I'm walking on eggshells about taking space. We had worked out an understanding today and then he asked me for reassurance this evening and I couldn't give it to him. To further complicate things he sent me that picture, and then did a bait and switch.

How do you fight fair under those circumstances?

I think the first step to fighting fair is to take a time out when you believe you don't have it in yourself to continue fighting fair because you are too upset. At those times I try to go a way as quickly and kindly as I can, but if I have to choose, I choose quickly. And make sure when you take a time out you give yourself at least 15-20 minutes minimum. It takes that long for your body to clear the adrenaline, after the fight/flight/freeze reaction and stimulus is gone.

And if he hangs up because he's upset... .well, better for him to be upset alone than aiming at you.

Or if he hangs up to prove a point because he thinks you were rejecting/punishing him when you took space... .well he's still being a jerk, and it is a good time not to be around that.

The less you are afraid of breaking eggshells, the better things will go. Yes, he may hang up on you. Yes, he may dysregulate. Heck, that's going to happen anyway, no matter what.

I found that facing my fears in my relationship was what helped me. Sitting with the fear, and thinking about what I was afraid of. (Usually I was afraid of something my wife had done before, and was almost certain to do again anyways. And there was nothing I could do to prevent it. And I'd survived it thousands of times before.)

Then I realized how bad the outcomes were when I let my fear drive my actions and choices.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Grey Kitty

He hung up on me a third time today, this time on FaceTime tonight because I asked him to please stop bringing up the past. He said if there is no past there is no future. He keeps reminding me that we are happy together. I reminded him that that was before September, and that what I found out in September changed everything. I told him we were in a in between space right out and that we needed to build a new happiness. I told him there was no going back to the old happiness because that was built on a premise that does not exist anymore. He said he was going to have to think about that, because that might be a problem for him. I told him all I was asking him to do was stop referencing the past, anything more then that was not coming from me.

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Grey Kitty wrote

And if he hangs up because he's upset... .well, better for him to be upset alone than aiming at you.

Or if he hangs up to prove a point because he thinks you were rejecting/punishing him when you took space... .well he's still being a jerk, and it is a good time not to be around that.

Yes that is what he did because I didn't want to relive our relationships greatest moments with him. I feel like he stole something from me, that that happiness was built on a lie, and being reminded of that does not make me happy.

Again I have to be really careful not to blame myself here and be really gentle with myself, which is not easy.

Tonight I told myself I wanted to feel my shame because its mine and I wanted to know it.

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So we will see what happens. Generally when he says he has to think about something and that he might have a problem with what I said that means that its going to be his way or the highway. I will see if I can not react to that this time.

[Grey Kitty]

Again I have to be really careful not to blame myself here and be really gentle with myself, which is not easy.

Tonight I told myself I wanted to feel my shame because its mine and I wanted to know it.

Feeling your shame is a brave thing to try doing. I agree--it is yours.

Putting real energy into your own self-care is a really good way to be gentle with yourself. I wouldn't suggest you avoid your difficult feelings--they are very important. It is hard to find the balance between beating yourself up and being self-indulgent. If you know where you tend to go, try to err away from your usual direction.

So we will see what happens. Generally when he says he has to think about something and that he might have a problem with what I said that means that its going to be his way or the highway. I will see if I can not react to that this time.

It is OK to have feelings about "my way or the highway." It may well be best to call his bluff. If "his way" is living in a fantasy world where he is going to marry you but isn't actually working on his divorce, then the highway starts to sound better, I'm sad to say.

You may find that other things are also paper tigers, just like hanging up on you is turning out to be. You experienced it three times today... .and sound more upset about what he was saying before he hung up than that he hung up on you.

Is him hanging up on you really something you need to be afraid of?

[unicorn2014]

Again I have to be really careful not to blame myself here and be really gentle with myself, which is not easy.

Tonight I told myself I wanted to feel my shame because its mine and I wanted to know it.

Feeling your shame is a brave thing to try doing. I agree--it is yours.

Putting real energy into your own self-care is a really good way to be gentle with yourself. I wouldn't suggest you avoid your difficult feelings--they are very important. It is hard to find the balance between beating yourself up and being self-indulgent. If you know where you tend to go, try to err away from your usual direction.

Thank you Grey Kitty. I'm really trying to practice radical acceptance with this one. I know how I got to where I'm at today, I know how I got into the position where I could have a relationship with him. I'm not in that position today. That's where the self compassion comes in.

It is OK to have feelings about "my way or the highway." It may well be best to call his bluff. If "his way" is living in a fantasy world where he is going to marry you but isn't actually working on his divorce, then the highway starts to sound better, I'm sad to say.

You may find that other things are also paper tigers, just like hanging up on you is turning out to be. You experienced it three times today... .and sound more upset about what he was saying before he hung up than that he hung up on you.

Is him hanging up on you really something you need to be afraid of?

Grey Kitty

Not at all, not afraid of that at all.

What I am is angry that he gets to resolve conflict that way, angry that he gets to do that if I say if this conversation keeps going this way I'm going to have to hang up, angry that he gets to keep reminding me of the past when it was all built on a lie. He says his feelings are real but I'm not talking about his feelings, I'm talking about his actions.

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There's another topic I want to bring up in the member's lounge.

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He claims the reason he didn't follow up on his divorce lawyer is that he is not temperamentally accustomed to doing that, he called it micromanaging. In my world I have to do everything so I don't see that as micromanaging, I see that as managing. In his world he used to be able to delegate everything, then he decided to close his business and sell his house and now he's having to do everything by himself. I think he's bluffing when he says his problems are temperamentally caused. I say they are borderline caused.

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I understand that right now he is recovering from the flu and working on many projects, I know December is a busy  month. What's bothering me is that he keeps bringing up the past and keeps referencing when we were happy. Yes, we were happy before I knew for certain that his divorce hadn't been filed. There's no going back to that happiness. We will have to build a new happiness if his divorce ever gets filed. In the meantime we have this. I told him it wasn't fair of him to send me pictures he took of me smiling . Its almost like he's trying to shame me into being that person again. He won't be able to.

[formflier]

   Again I have to be really careful not to blame myself here and be really gentle with myself, which is not easy.    

         Boy, blame is such a harsh word.  Can you wipe that from your vocabulary.  Try responsible or responsibility.  It is accurate but doesn't have a cutting edge that blame seems to have.  You are responsible for being in this r/s.  Point blank, no way around it.    You are responsible for either taking space that you need, or allowing someone else to cancel your decision.  No other explanation needed about other people attempting to contact you.  You need space, take it.  I believe you were trying to say that things got better so you didn't think you needed to take space in a previous reply.  You need to focus on stability.  Fewer, shorter calls will help.  Get in, get out, before either of you start talking about the past or the future.  Can you give talking about the past and future a rest  I'm talking to you, not him, if he wants to talk about it let him, you don't have to listen.           

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey there,

Excuse the late chime in... .  Just wanted to relate to something I relate to... .  Which appears to keep coming up as a theme for you. 

I understand that right now he is recovering from the flu and working on many projects, I know December is a busy  month. What's bothering me is that he keeps bringing up the past and keeps referencing when we were happy. Yes, we were happy before I knew for certain that his divorce hadn't been filed. There's no going back to that happiness. We will have to build a new happiness if his divorce ever gets filed. In the meantime we have this. I told him it wasn't fair of him to send me pictures he took of me smiling . Its almost like he's trying to shame me into being that person again. He won't be able to.

I may have said this before.  I don't remember.

I appreciate how you keep noticing your frustrations regarding him either wanting to live in the past... .or the future.  I appreciate reading how you continue to stay present/aware in the face of this all... .very admirable... .and I believe... .necessary for our own mental health.

I too get bothered, 'triggered,' when I am living in an invalidating environment, or when my reality does not sync with another's reality.

It is when I 'gave up' my reality and compromised it... .that I have 'lost myself.'

I see how aware you are being at maintaining this... .and I appreciate following and seeing the challenges you are facing while still maintaining your reality _{vs acquiescing to him imposing his version on you.}

Thank you for sharing!

[Grey Kitty]

I see some boundary issues on your side here, not just him:

What's bothering me is that he keeps bringing up the past and keeps referencing when we were happy. Yes, we were happy before I knew for certain that his divorce hadn't been filed. There's no going back to that happiness. We will have to build a new happiness if his divorce ever gets filed. In the meantime we have this. I told him it wasn't fair of him to send me pictures he took of me smiling . Its almost like he's trying to shame me into being that person again. He won't be able to.

Your feelings are real and legitimate.

Feeling manipulated/shamed when he sends you a pic of you smiling (at him or with him) from better times based on deception is very real.

I'm having trouble seeing how it is "not fair" for him to send you those pictures.

Are you feeling that you need to take away HIS happy memories because of the deceit that made them possible?

You are completely entitled to feel very differently about those times now that you know more. And your feelings are 100% real and legitimate, even if his feelings about those times are very different. There is no need to make him feel the same way to validate your own feelings.

Do you see the distinction between your feelings and his in this?

[unicorn2014]

Formflier I am trying .

I wake up to a voice mail from him; 4 texts I haven't read, and a Facebook messenger message. This is after he hung up on me on FaceTime last night.

I'm not talking about the past or the future, I'm trying to be mindful.

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I say blame because I have to be careful.

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Yes I am responsible for being in the relationship.

[unicorn2014]

Sunflower, thank you, it's hard .

[unicorn2014]

Grey kitty, absolutely, so, what is the proper response to him based on that? Apologize?