Need Advice: Enjoy LC or Reach Out to Share New information

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Mommydoc, I admire so much how you are handling this and I'm following your story in hopes of learning what I might expect (though in reverse) as my parents age. I hope you are able to make time for self-care while this plays out even if it's may seem to make only a minimal dent in all that you're shouldering.

I'm curious if you feel your sister is clear on your boundary. The repeated attempts to gain something (without, as others have said, expressly stating what she really wants) means she is working in multiple ways to find a loophole.

Have you said to her, "I will not consent to any decision in which mom is moved elsewhere." Or something equally clear?

Do you feel that expressing that boundary clearly will drive her to more disordered behavior?

[livednlearned]

Mommydoc, I admire so much how you are handling this and I'm following your story in hopes of learning what I might expect (though in reverse) as my parents age. I hope you are able to make time for self-care while this plays out even if it's may seem to make only a minimal dent in all that you're shouldering.

I'm curious if you feel your sister is clear on your boundary. The repeated attempts to gain something (without, as others have said, expressly stating what she really wants) means she is working in multiple ways to find a loophole.

Have you said to her, "I will not consent to any decision in which mom is moved elsewhere." Or something equally clear?

Do you feel that expressing that boundary clearly will drive her to more disordered behavior?

[Notwendy]

I am a people pleaser by nature  and my parents always drummed in being a good big sister, so it has taken a lot of unlearning old patterns of behavior to allow her manage her own distress and not fix it.

I think people pleasing is a common characteristic for some people growing up in a dysfunctional family. Families adopt patterns so they can function as a whole. If one member is disordered, the others may over function or take on certain roles to compensate.

Your parents likely knew your sister was vulnerable in some way, even if they didn't understand why. They did what parents would do- become protective. If they sensed a resilience in you then it's probably human nature for them to have put you in protector mode. It wasn't necessarily fair to you do to this, but I think it's how families work.

As children, we learn certain behaviors in our families of origin that served a purpose in that setting, but don't serve us well as adults and may even contribute to dysfunction in our relationships. Caretaking traits aren't necessarily negative, in fact, they make people well suited to the caretaking professions- medicine, teaching, social work. You have had to in a sense, put some of your own needs aside to be able to take care of people. However, the other side of the helping professions is burn out. You have to have boundaries and also take some time to recharge.

Where these caretaking traits cross the line into dysfunction is when we take on tasks that the person can do themselves. We take away their accountability, the learning experience from getting better skills, and also their sense of accomplishment. When you "do too much" for your sister, you feel resentment. She also feels less capable and this plays into how she relates to you.

I have wondered with my BPD mother how much is her own inability and how much is due to her being enabled. I think it's chicken and egg. We also walked on eggshells around her.  I also have been too much of a people pleaser. While this had a sort of stabilizing impact on the family as a unit, being too much of a people pleaser doesn't serve me well in adult relationships.

The good news about learned behaviors is that we can unlearn them, and learn new ones It does take some practice and adjustment though.

Natural consequences is a teacher. While surely we'd step in to protect a person from a harmful situation, protecting them from too much keeps them from learning. For instance, if your sister behaves poorly with your mother's medical team, and they respond to this with her- this is the consequence for her behavior. Likewise if she doesn't manage her money well, it's not your responsibility to solve this for her by compromising your mother's care.

[formflier]

Have you said to her, "I will not consent to any decision in which mom is moved elsewhere." Or something equally clear?
 

And also...

How about "Hey Sis, are we addressing your core concern here?"

Perhaps a bit more direct.

"Hey Sis, the records (or whatever) seem to have made whatever you are experiencing worse.  Am I understanding your correctly?"

I mention all of this because it seems she is not really getting the the bottom of it, although to be fair..she may not know herself.

Maybe split into two strategies.

1.  How would you respond if she "knows" but is being manipulative and asking for other..related..things?

2.  How would you respond if she can't really articulate what she wants?

And even better.  If you can craft responses that handle both contingencies.

Best,

FF

[Mommydoc]

She kept bugging the Director yesterday and she just emailed the whole ledger to both of us. I have not looked at it, and don’t intend to engage on it.

I knew/know putting an agreement in writing isn’t going to solve it and appreciate everyone pointing it out. My husband doesn’t fully understand BPD and just wants to fix things. Once she said are you going to cover moms expenses when she runs out of money, and I responded I didn’t think she is going to run out of money, but if she did I would. The next time it was “you say that, but your husband is cheap, I don’t believe you, put it in writing.” I had not considered Saying this tells her "mom doesn't really need the money because I will take care of it" which might make her feel even more resentful of this situation and of you.
This is an amazing insight. Doing what she asks doesn’t solve anything AND it could be another invalidation. What she really wants is to be “My equal”.

Have you said to her, "I will not consent to any decision in which mom is moved elsewhere." Or something equally clear? Yes, I have, many times, but probably not frequently enough. She hears what she wants and distorts everything else. It took years for her to even acknowledge the HC POA. We are 50/50 Financial POA but I am Healthcare POA, but she misrepresented it repeatedly as she was 50% decisionamker. She had to hear it a 100 times from lots of people. The document allows each of us to act “singly” financially which means we can act on behalf of my mom or the trust independently, so I can sign off on the room without her consent. In retrospect, because she wants to be my “Equal” conceding the HC POA was nearly impossible for her. I had to say it over and over, and others (HC team, Social Workers, The facility) all had to do same. They all believed her, until they saw the documents. Last year she asked me to send her the documents to “Prove It” which of course she had been given many times before. Now she acknowledges the HC POA, but says “just because” you are HC POA doesn’t mean you can decide …. Or “you use the HC POA to make financial decisions that should be family decisions”.  I like the idea of having a few simple statements like you are suggesting livednlearned and FF that insert/repeat over and over. I am not going to mention HC POA at all, and just state, I won’t agree.

Previously when I have said it, she doesn’t acknowledge it, but she has heard it, because a few times she has said things like “ I am going to back off on this to preserve our relationship” or “For mom’s sake , if you feel strongly, I will just let it go”. But then of course she doesn’t. I am thinking I should remind her of that prior statement and acknowledge her statement more fully, “meet the emotions” as Methuen suggest of “How important our relationship is and how wonderful she was to agree to let that go and move forward with the other decisions we need to make.

I am  struggling with how to get these “Regular” conversations into a more functional routine cadence. We agreed to talk weekly, and have a list of topics and that each of us could prioritize on alternate meetings. My list (which I sent  3 months ago) even triggered her (“ your list sounds like an amicable divorce”) and so far we have not gotten very far. I told her I was only available for 15 minutes and wanted to talk about the condo. Now in her emails she is describing it as a “Family Meeting” asking if I am ready to discuss “Mom’s Entire Situation” and specifically raising the discussion point of “the facility”. I am going to practice the “I will not consent to any decision in which mom is moved” statement.

My therapist feels every week is too frequent and we should do every other week. Perhaps it is 15 min/week, and if either of us is not available we agree to schedule 30 minutes the following week. If we could talk and agree on the condo, (which I think is easy as I will agree to whatever she prefers) it will set a good tone. The condo is a great topic as she has a real estate license and I can defer to her as “The expert” and express how grateful I am for her expertise . I am hoping for a quick win there.

“Getting to the bottom of it”: I think there is a possibility that she would acknowledge that she wants to reduce mom’s expenses and perhaps we can set a reasonable goal around that. There isn’t much left as we have eliminated a lot of expenses and most of her services are bundled already but the smaller room, canceling her phone/TV would get us about 15%.

The challenge is, she does most of the talking and it is hard to effectively redirect her without invalidating her. I am going to pay attention and make sure that I am gently acknowledging and redirecting concurrently and make sure she knows I have to get off the phone.

Wish me luck, I will check in after the call tomorrow!

[zachira]

Mommydoc,
It can help to remember that less is better. Your sister wants to be in control, and have her way all the time. There is a long list of less of: less contact which your therapist is advocating for, using fewer words when setting boundaries and in all communications, etc., Let us know how the call goes.

[livednlearned]

Have you said to her, "I will not consent to any decision in which mom is moved elsewhere." Or something equally clear? Yes, I have, many times, but probably not frequently enough. She hears what she wants and distorts everything else.

Fortunately, you have leverage in the situation because you are legally HC POA.

If and when she feels she's getting nowhere, her intimidation will likely escalate again to talk of legal action.

Has she spoken about taking legal action again?

She seems to be invested in looking good so that may pump the brakes a bit.

Does she use guilt-tripping on you to get her way?

In retrospect, because she wants to be my “Equal” conceding the HC POA was nearly impossible for her.

You mention giving her free reign with the condo because it will make her feel like she's winning -- that may also embolden her to work harder at undermining you on the HC POA.

Being nice, being fair, rolling over -- it sends a signal to disordered people that we are weak and can be manipulated. If you gift her the condo you are giving away leverage that you might need later down the line. It may also give her a second wind with some of these other issues around your mom's care and well-being.

You will have given her x expecting something in y when she is not wired for that logic.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Being nice, being fair, rolling over -- it sends a signal to disordered people that we are weak and can be manipulated.

Very true .

I also find that the more we accept to walk on egg shells around them, the fiercer they are.
 

[zachira]

"Being nice, being fair, rolling over- it sends a message to disordered people that we are weak and can be manipulated." This has been something I am coming to terms with, and I have felt enormously guilty having to do things that didn't feel good, yet I have had to with so my disordered family members and their flying monkeys to mitigate the ongoing escalating abuse of me and others. I have tried to say this so many times in this thread and others, and haven't come up with saying it so perfectly as Livednlearned has. It is so terribly painful to at times to have to be someone we feel we are not, and to do so with our family members. In this case, the medical team is going to tire pretty fast of the sister, and Mommydoc is searching for ways to have low contact with her sister while keeping her sister informed about her mother's medical care. Certainly it does not work to what can seem like enabling bad behaviors that never end just seem to get worse, yet it does not work for us either to do things that go against our most sacred values and our caring hearts. Possibly the solutions lie with setting the best boundaries we can with the disordered persons in our lives, while letting ourselves grieve the losses of having to do this. I am hoping the call went better than expected!

[Methuen]

I 3rd that giving her a "win" on the condo could backfire.  It sounds like you are basing your logic on reciprocity, but do you have faith that she can behave with any degree of reciprocal good will?  This is about power and control, and as you say "needing to be your equal", and, I would add a not so secret desire to "show you up", and "win".

If you gift her a "win" with the condo, it is possible you will be emboldening her.  Hard to say more than that from where we are.  You know her.  Trust your instincts, but also listen to that little voice at the back of your head.  Maybe there is still some way you can validate her "expertise as a realtor" in the condo negotiation?  

I am seeing a pattern, the same one we all experience.  Chaos.  She is the epicenter, and her words and actions create work and emotion for everyone around her.  I have come to the conclusion that one of our jobs is to figure out how not to respond to the chaos, as doing so gives positive reinforcement to create more chaos.

She demands the ledger from the director, who complies. Win for her.

She makes demands to have "discussions" involving care and finances.  You agree to weekly meetings (15 min).  Win for her.  I kind of agree with your T - meeting every week sounds like a big demand.  Ick. This could be set up to fail.  What's going to happen the first time something happens when you have to "excuse yourself and miss"?  Defend and explain to her?  Also, I would not go along with her framing of "family meeting".  This is an obligation where she is in the driver's seat.  "I don't think of it as a family meeting.  It's a talk between two sisters".

She makes demands about the condo.  You agree.  She wins.

She's getting everyone else to do a lot of work...

Pattern?  

Will this embolden her sense of control because she sees you as weak?

Not saying it will, not saying it won't.  Just putting it out there as a possibility.

A few simple statement ("scripts") is excellent.

Have you got any kind of script prepared to "meet her emotions?"  This is where H and I did a lot of work around the financial conflict with his sis.  Rational discussion would not have worked with her when it came to negotiations.  He had to meet her on an emotional level, but always from the point of view of how her actions impacted him.  She made strategic mistakes along the way (over 7 years) that made her look bad.  In the end, meeting her at an emotional level was a successful strategy (facts sprinkled in).

Previously when I have said it [HC POA?], she doesn’t acknowledge it, but she has heard it, because a few times she has said things like “ I am going to back off on this to preserve our relationship” or “For mom’s sake , if you feel strongly, I will just let it go”. But then of course she doesn’t. I am thinking I should remind her of that prior statement and acknowledge her statement more fully, “meet the emotions” of “How important our relationship is and how wonderful she was to agree to let that go and move forward with the other decisions we need to make.

Yes.  The tone of voice used when you remind her of these prior statements will be critical.  Kind and gentle, rather than directive. Lots to work with here, as she is probably experiencing a desperate fear that after mom dies, she will lose you too.  In H's negotiations with his sister, the BIL at one point (after H's story which was his victim impact statement) acknowledged that their actions had damaged the relationship (evidence was damning), and that the parties had reached a fork in the path.  Either the relationship moved forward, or there would probably be no relationship.  Sis didn't want to "lose" her brother, so this was when they started to negotiate on how to partition the inheritance (yes there was a Will - long sordid story not worth mentioning).  H also had leverage because there was some shady stuff done on their part with an insurance claim, and H was talking about calling the adjustor to ask questions.  They didn't want that.  So, can you think of ways to build a narrative on an emotional level, without judgement or blame in your negotiations with her?  Leverage anything?  Including her fear of losing you, but without ever coming out and putting it into words like that?

Negotiating to reduce mom's expenses at this point seems reasonable.  She was paying more when she could still benefit and enjoy the extra perks (eg bigger room).  Maybe those things are less important at this stage.

Wishing you well.  All you can do is your best.  You are only half the equation.  

[GaGrl]

I suspect your sister is in some level of financial bind and has been expecting and needing an inheritance, which she sees being reduced now due to the nature of your mother's illness. Yet, she is ashamed to be engaged in this thinking, as it isn't culturally/socially appropriate. So...she brings up other topics that play around the edges of her real concern.

I like the idea of the trust's financial advisor drawing up several scenarios to predict the longevity of the funds. (My husband is a financial advisor, and he often works up these scenarios, sometimes in advance of an estate lawyer actually setting up the trust.) This could very well affect the rent vs. sell decision on the condo.

[Mommydoc]

Thanks GaGrl, I think it would be a good idea for him to do and just send to her.

The call today didn’t go well. It started with her telling me about her friend who had died this week and crying, me offering empathy. I could tell she was  dysregulated before we started.

We talked briefly about the tenant moving out of the condo, she wants to offer it to a friend of hers to move in, and I asked that we assess market rents but if that worked out I was OK with it, and asked her to contact the property manager to advise.

She then brought up the facility. She told me that she had shared all her concerns about the facility and how the decision to increase my mothers level of care was made and she wanted to know my response to her concerns.  I told her my perception of the facility and my version of the story would be different. It was helpful to know how it made her feel. I told her I owned my part of it. I didn’t have a need to do counterpoint or rehash what happened by sharing my perspective. I want to move forward. At that point I shared my talking points. (Which I had written down):

“ I want to be sure we are clear and aligned on goals.  My  goal is to assure mom is comfortable, happy and safe. The goal is not to preserve wealth or assets. The goal is for mom to have enough money between her income and her savings to cover expenses until she passes away.  Dad did a really Good job with that, between SS, his pension, her pension and his retirement savings.  She is not going to run out of money. I am confident of that but want you to be equally confident and to make sure we address your core concern here. I will not agree to a decision to move mom out of the facility.  Mom is comfortable, happy and safe at the facility and she can afford it. It sounds like your core concern is mom’s expenses. You are right that mom’s expenses are high. Let’s work together to look at opportunities to reduce her expenses. Turning off phone, TV, possibly get on a wait list for a smaller room.”

She then started ranting about how off base I was about the reason she wants to move mom, about how it is not meeting her needs, and all of her concerns. She said maybe you don’t care about preserving moms assets but I do (bingo! First time, she admits  it is about money)  She quoted her research on the facility (online negative reviews) and costs being higher than average. She told me how mom’s wellness is being threatened because of the poor care. She wants mom to get  “24 hour compassionate care” (hospice). I conceded that costs are high;  (without explaining why or discussing why she doesn’t qualify for hospice) She kept perseverating about a “demented man” who got in moms room and her bed when she was there. It happened but the irony is the staff  were very upset because she kept going in and  out and leaving the door open which is why it happened. After multiple comments about the staffs poor training, incompetence and that incident, I pointed out that they have a policy to keep, doors locked but she had left the door unlocked, (a mistake on my part) but she was already so angry and out of control that it probably doesn’t matter.  She perceives my mom to be physically disabled and that the unit is not the right place because she needs more cognitive stimulation. The reason I like the place is because of all the activities.  The ranting was really bad this time, she had a whole conspiracy theory about the Director and she must be hiding things, or have done something illegal. She also kept going on that the change in care was  illegal because she is 50% decision maker. I reiterated that I wouldn’t move mom. When we don’t agree, care decisions fall to me as HCPOA. Rage intensifies, more accusations, followed by her making demands for all her tax returns, and “All her records”. I can’t get her to define “all her records” but I know anything she gets won’t be “enough”. I am sticking to letting her “Do it herself”. I didn’t agree to any of her demands  but might ask the accountant to send them to her and/or forward what I get from the facility.

She went back to her goals of honesty, transparency and respect and my goal of harmony. I told her I didn’t think the meeting had been productive and we were failing at those goals. (She corrected me to say that she had been honest, transparent and respectful but  I had not because I “refused’ to address all of her concerns and the “first/only thing” I said is I won’t agree to move mom. (That was least 15 minutes in, ) She ended with
 ‘well I won’t agree to let her stay there and  I am a decision maker. And you will never sell that condo without my agreement so don’t try to do that from under me.”

I am thinking of going to email only contact at this point, advising her that I don’t think the phone meetings are working. Blocking her on my phone and having my husband read her emails. My husband came and listened in as it got heated and he thinks she is going to throw the legal threat in again. She kept talking about things being illegal, but never said she was going to sue. (That has been a frequent threat previously). I am contemplating how I can amass a team to work with her directly, financial advisor of trust, the accountant, new doctor and social worker.

I am also considering  consulting an elder law attorney just to get a consultation, in case, she does go legal. To make sure there are no specific things I should do proactively to protect myself.

I appreciate all the advice, as I felt very prepared and strong going in. I made some mistakes, but I held on to my boundaries. Her reaction was predictable. ( even so it was  worse than I expected). I wish I could get a divorce and never have to interact with her again.

Happy Mother’s Day to those of you who are mothers. Take care of yourself, we all deserve it!

[GaGrl]

I agree that consulting an elder care attorney and bringing him/her up to speed on the situation is a very good move. It may save time and emotional wear and tear later.

Your sister doesn't understand the hospice care qualification process at all.

And...she is angling to get that condo.

[formflier]

I can't imagine things going well for a "friend" to move in to the condo, yet I also don't think you should say that too her.

If the friend has several months deposit and a massive increase in rent..maybe.

I also like where your head is about phone contact.   It's simply not working for you and your goals. 

What does your husband think of the idea to go email only with him as a "screener"


Best,

FF

[zachira]

I think the friend moving into the condo is likely your sister.

[Notwendy]

I think you see your sister for her motives. There's a conflict of interest here that can not be resolved by any kind of discussion, facts, records, or how nice you are. She wants what she wants and you stand in the way of what she wants. She will twist this and do what she can to get you to back down. While I know you won't back down, discussions with her won't resolve anything and will be problematic.

Compromise doesn't work and neither will making an offer such as a smaller room for your mom. With my mother, any acquiescence only encourages her because emotionally, nothing is enough. You could move your mother to a smaller room, and your sister will find something else she wants you to do.

I agree with the lawyer consultation to protect yourself.

As long as there is a financial connection between the two of you, there will be this conflict.

She went back to her goals of honesty, transparency and respect and my goal of harmony.



I understand you want harmony. We all do, but at some point, realized that harmony with a disordered person is not possible, because they themselves are in an emotional state of disharmony

"honesty and transparency"- keep in mind the idea of projection. You are being honest and transparent. She is not and so assumes the same for you. What they accuse you of says more about them than you.

It's possible that once your mother's estate is settled, your sister may not have much interest in a relationship with you. You may feel the same way.

Rather than have these continuous circular discussions with her, that go nowhere, consider how the financial ties between you can be separated.

The condo. Do not let anyone connected to your sister rent. Anyone who is a friend of hers is not your friend. She's probably triangulated them. They also might not be responsible. If they stop paying rent, then you have the problem of evicting your sister's friend. I stand with GaGirl- this may be some plan for her to get the condo.

It may be better to avoid possible drama with your sister by selling it and splitting any gains from the sale. If she won't agree to sell it, one idea is to have it appraised and buy her out if you can. Then, you rent it or sell it as you wish. ( she might be happy to get the money for it). I would do all this through lawyers so it's completely unquestionable.

With your mother's funds. Your boundary is that you aren't moving her.

Your sister is throwing out all kinds of smokescreens by complaining about the facility. All this is a smokescreen for what she wants. I don't know what she may want, but any assisted living situation has a substantial cost, event the least expensive one isn't inexpensive. First, I'd secure legal coverage so you are protected. Next, I'd consider letting her solve her complaints. Say " while I am not willing to move mother, I understand you are not happy with this situation. How about you look around at options and let me know what you are thinking is better? This way, she puts some work into finding places and seeing how much they cost. Let her contact Hospice and ask- and they themselves will tell her why your mother doesn't qualify. Step out of being the middle person between her and available options and let her look for what she thinks she wants. My guess is that the savings she thinks she could have are larger than the actual ones. Let her find that out herself.

My guess is that your sister's imagined inheritance if only mother was somewhere else is probably not based on reality. I assume you have done the groundwork of finding suitable care for your mother and sis doesn't know much about how this works or how much it costs. I have also looked into assisted living situations, the different payment plans for them and the range of costs. Even the least expensive of them is costly. Just seeing the sum of money- it's a lot. Your sister just sees the numbers and blames you for the cost. Let her find out what all of them cost. Also let her inquire about which of them will even accept a patient in your mother's condition. Not all of them are equipped for her level of care and they the ones that do are not the least expensive.

I think she's shown you what she wants and perhaps she needs a reality check rather than believe you are what is keeping her from an imaginary sum of money.

[Notwendy]

Go Zachira! And sis is not planning on paying rent.

[formflier]

As long as there is a financial connection between the two of you, there will be this conflict.

consider how the financial ties between you can be separated.

So...think back to my "one and done" comment.  Is there any chance that a separation of finances is going to be "harmonious" or "smooth"?  Is it likely to take a small amount of effort and money...or large?

I'm not saying that your consultations with a elder law attorney should NOT happen...I absolutely think all angles should be "considered" and planned for.

However...at the end of the day I will be surprised if there is a plan "separates finances" prior to the estate settlement/probate that would be "worth it".

Related topic:  Please ask the elder law attorney if there is any chance of avoiding probate.  On one account of my Dad's there was not a "beneficiary" or perhaps "pay on death" signature.  That pushed the amount in question up past the threshold of having to open probate.

Why does this matter?    Well...probate is a court proceeding.  Things get argued about.  What are the chances your sister will "contest" things?

Last:  Uggg...I really hope zachira is not correct on the "friend".   Expeditiously renting it seems even more important considering the impact of "discovering" your sis or her friend in the condo.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

Dollars to donuts she is planning legal action. At a minimum, she has considered it altho a hunch tells me she has consulted with an attorney already.

She quoted her research on the facility (online negative reviews) and costs being higher than average. She told me how mom’s wellness is being threatened because of the poor care.

Requesting all of these documents and then not saying much about them, the online research, using the word "threat" in terms of your mom's care -- she might be doing things to get her ducks in a row.

She kept perseverating about a “demented man” who got in moms room and her bed when she was there. It happened but the irony is the staff  were very upset because she kept going in and  out and leaving the door open which is why it happened.

I would ask an attorney what the gold standard is for documentation in a facility like the one your mom is staying in. And then inquire whether the facility has kicked those processes into place -- your sister's behavior has likely tipped them off.

she had a whole conspiracy theory about the Director and she must be hiding things, or have done something illegal.

One reason to move things to email is to have a paper trail of what your sister is saying.

Documentation is gold if there is legal action.  

I didn’t agree to any of her demands  but might ask the accountant to send them to her and/or forward what I get from the facility.

Maybe wait until you talk to an attorney before sending any more documents?

She kept talking about things being illegal, but never said she was going to sue. (That has been a frequent threat previously).

 

Her reaction was predictable. ( even so it was  worse than I expected).

This could be an extinction burst. Sometimes when we set clear, firm boundaries the response is an extra hard shove to test if the boundary is truly firm.

Mommydoc, your sister might be what Bill Eddy (www.highconflictinstitute.com) calls a high-conflict personality (HCP) which he describes as someone who recruits negative advocates, is a persuasive blamer, has a target of blame, and who has BPD.

According to Eddy, not all people with BPD are HCPs, but all HCPs have a personality disorder of some type. HCPs tend to engage the legal system in a very specific way.

People in a constant state of emotional turmoil are difficult people because they outsource boundaries to others. It becomes our job to have boundaries since they are so adamantly disinclined. Several developmental stages are missing yet pwBPD can pass as grown ups with access to all the perks and powers of adult life.

In a protracted legal battle with a disordered HCP, I channeled much of my anxiety into documentation per my lawyer's counsel. While it didn't prevent me from going to court, I was able to have a positive outcome and my pwBPD was a former trial attorney. The "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" approach to legal action can go a long way and thankfully, your sister is kindly letting you know what she's thinking 

[formflier]

Maybe wait until you talk to an attorney before sending any more documents?

Probably a good idea. 

On the one hand attorneys know that the documents can be gotten through discovery and they will likely balance that with "making them work for it" and "go through the process".

Ask the attorney and yourself what is the benefit of continuing to help your sister amass all this data.

Best,

FF

[Mommydoc]

My first text today came from my sister”Happy Mothers Day, I love you sister” with a photo of the two of us.  She does this after she behaves badly.

I think the friend moving into the condo is likely your sister.

. Probably not, as the condo is  far away from where she lives, but I shouldn’t laugh too hard, as she is capable of this. I am going to engage the property manager to do a market assessment for rents and ask her what we should ask for a shorter lease. My feeling is anything less than 6 months (which friend wants),we should increase deposit and monthly rent.  I want the condo to have cash flow but I think keeping the property manager and listing the condo  will be important. (She suggested not using a property manager since she trusts her friend… well I don’t).

Livednlearned, I think you are right that she is a HCP and all that goes with that. You are right about documentation and your story is  encouraging. I have been printing texts/emails to document and create a trail. I had previously consulted with the trust attorney about a year ago and she had suggested I give her records she requested as a show of good faith to include her. She also said that a judge will always side with spending money on the settler of the trust for health care needs. She felt moving any elderly person to a less expensive facility with the purpose of preserving assets for inheritance would be frowned upon. My sister actually helped my case by asking for a medical report that stated the recommendations, so her doctor wrote a very detailed report of the medical reasons behind it. I am not really sure what she would sue for, but I do think there are lawyers who could be persuaded by her that she has a case. I don’t think she does and though I would like to avoid court, I am not afraid of it. If she chooses this path, she will choosing a path
that guarantees our relationship will be dissolved after the estate is settled. That might give her pause.

In terms of probate, I think we are in good shape, as we created the trust in alignment with state laws to avoid probate. The condo is in the trust and beyond that, most of the trust will be easy to liquidate and divide.

Ask the attorney and yourself what is the benefit of continuing to help your sister amass all this data.

It’s exactly why I think it is time to get an attorney. I want to make sure I have minimal liability, that my documentation fully refutes any  allegations and that I can quickly respond to any legal situation. As I think about it having a new doctor to document her assessment of my mother and the facility is a bonus “Second Opinion”, as she will try to discredit the first doctor.

 I am also going to suggest the facility document her behavior when she was there, leaving the door unlocked, the chaos she created, etc.

I did ask the facility to follow their normal protocol and to release whatever they would release to another person in similar circumstances. I think the director wasn’t sure and ended up mailing them to me, but I have not received them. I agree with checking with an attorney before doing anything more.

And in the meantime, LC, which I love!

[formflier]

  My feeling is anything less than 6 months (which friend wants),we should increase deposit and monthly rent.  

At a minimum. 

Are you open to the idea of the friend moving in? 

Lots of pitfalls here.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Yes, the "I am good now" switch to being nice 

When my kids have rented apartments ( off campus housing, etc ) they have had to have a credit check, background check and proof of income. We parents have had to co sign leases when they didn't have sufficient income of their own.

Your sister's friend can also do the same if she's interested in renting. And you can approve or not approve the application. I suggest you do this for any potential renters. If your sister is trying to rent "between friends" without this information, beware.

[missing NC]

If your sister pursues legal channels to move your mom, which is admittedly self-serving and clearly not in your mom's interest, you can end your relationship with her well before the estate settles by petitioning to have her removed as co-trustee. 

If you do end up sending her financial documents, you may wish to include a summary of your conversation, including her priority of preserving the estate versus spending money on high quality care for your mom... But of course, the attorney can speak to all of that.  Given that your attorney's fees will be coming out of the estate, your sister is already reducing the amount that will be left. 

I had the same reaction as others when you mentioned your sister's friend staying in the condo.  Ugh.  Sorry you are going through this but glad for you that you evidently have a good handle on things. 

[livednlearned]

I am not really sure what she would sue for, but I do think there are lawyers who could be persuaded by her that she has a case. I don’t think she does and though I would like to avoid court, I am not afraid of it. If she chooses this path, she will choosing a path that guarantees our relationship will be dissolved after the estate is settled. That might give her pause.

You have the best attitude  and it's a good sign that your sister may be motivated to preserve your relationship.

She may be looking at legal stuff as a way to manage intense anxiety or emotion that has no real outlet. I do think there are HCPs who seek legal recourse almost like it's a drum set. Lots of noise. If you aren't rattled by it, she may begin to think it's not quite so effective at getting the response she wants. And a good way to not get rattled is to gather information like you're doing.

I want to make sure I have minimal liability, that my documentation fully refutes any  allegations and that I can quickly respond to any legal situation.

It's hard to know the degree to which your sister is driven by delusion or paranoia or intent or a combination of all three. If she genuinely believes there is misconduct, that's one thing. If she is trying to stir up a case to get control of the situation, that's another.

And in the meantime, LC, which I love!

 

[formflier]

It's hard to know the degree to which your sister is driven by delusion or paranoia or intent or a combination of all three. If she genuinely believes there is misconduct, that's one thing. If she is trying to stir up a case to get control of the situation, that's another.

I've been trying to organize this in my head and this comment sort of showed me the way to lay out the possibilities.

She can think all she wants..believe what she wants, but in any legal action the court is going to look at "evidence". 

So...perhaps one tactic to take with your sister is to send documents and ask (in writing) for her to point out which documents show "misconduct" or whatever she is alleging.

Has your sister written down her accusations or only spewed them verbally during conversation. 

If she is on record saying "x" is happening to Mom and we need to change that, then any court is going to want see evidence of "x".  So...to evaluate your sisters "case", it would be important to know exactly which documents she thinks show "x" happening.

Switching gears

There are lawsuits that essentially say because of neglect (or things NOT happening to/for Mom that need to be happening) she needs to be moved or have a different care team.

As long as you can show the court a history of good care for Mom and show a plan for that to continue, I think you should easily prevail.

So even if there is documentation of someone getting into Mom's room once or twice...or a door being left unlocked or whatever...  Well...that's just what happens from time to time with elderly people (many with dementia). 

They will walk into the wrong room. Once staff realizes what a person seems to be doing now, then they can "interdict" that behavior in the future.

I think you are "fine" here (in a good position) and I also think staying ahead of this by checking in with your attorney is important

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

It's hard to know the degree to which your sister is driven by delusion or paranoia or intent or a combination of all three.


I'd be careful as there's no way of knowing how vindictive they can get if they feel like victims.

Although we have been concerned about my BPD mother's mismanaging of her funds, we are grateful we have had nothing to do with it or her care. Recently, she's been accusing her caregivers of "elder abuse". There's been no physical abuse but she considers "upsetting her" as fitting the definition. Home helpers don't stay with her for long. If anyone is being abusive, it's her. The only way to "not upset her" is to be submissive while she does that.

She's said that if anyone upsets her, she's going to call the police to have them arrested. I don't know if she would go through with this, but I don't trust her not to. At this point, I won't go near her.

Then on Mother's Day she tells me how wonderful her kids are. 

Document everything.

[Turkish]

Agree with Notwendy. Document everything. My mom did that to me, accusing me of several types of elder abuse and calling cops on me. 

[Notwendy]

Gosh Turkish,
I am so sorry she did that.

[Mommydoc]

I'd be careful as there's no way of knowing how vindictive they can get if they feel like victims.

Like you, Not Wendy, I just  want to stay out of her way. Your advice is well taken. I can’t think like her to predict what she will do. My sister is pretty disorganized in her thoughts. One minute talking about “wrongs” from many years ago, the next minute “the best sister”, then attacking me, then the care team and now her target is the facility and facility director . It can and will change with her emotions of the moment. And of course the “love you sister,  Mother’s Day message” right after raging at me.

Thank you Turkish, FF and NotWendy.

Document everything.

, seems like a clear message. As mentioned, she has threatened a legal action and lawyer previously and never followed through. It always unnerved me, but I believe it was her way of trying to get me to do what she wants. This time she never mentioned it, but for the first time, I believe she is getting ready for legal action. So, I am preparing.

Yesterday, I decided to start my work day late, and made a number of productive calls. I spoke with our property manager, the trust attorney, the director of the Facility, the  facility Ombudsman, and the trust account financial advisor. Even though the situation is unpleasant, each of these individuals in their own way, were very helpful, supportive and validating. I feel like I got great advice from people who are objective and clear advocates for my mom.

Property Manager: advised against shorter lease to “friend”, said rental market is hot and we can easily increase rent and get a 12 mo tenant. If we went with friend, advised higher rent, prepayment and required application and credit/criminal check. She agreed to a market assessment and set of recommendations. I made her aware my sister will want to let property management go, but I will insist on continuing use of their services.

Facility Director: She was angry about my sister’s allegations but said she wasn’t worried. Been through it before and feels we have “10X the documentation” most families have to document my mothers care recommendations and the excellent care. She advised connecting with ombudsman to be a neutral advocate for my mom. She agreed to pull some documents for my records and to arrange for another cognitive evaluation this week to document my mothers impairments ( sister doesn’t believe my mom has dementia or cognitive impairment despite serial assessments documenting her slow decline)

Ombudsman: She is going to visit my mom, and ask her if she has concerns with her care. She can’t document anything, but the director will document she came by and so will I, and it establishes her relationship. She shared with me that of all facilities she works with, she almost never gets complaints and that when she does the Director is very responsive and easy to work with. If my sister does go down this path, she can be an independent person to investigate my sisters concerns and be an advocate for my mother.

Financial Advisor: he is going to prepare a trust assessment and project assets until age 100, and objective recommendations.

Trust Attorney: I have consulted her frequently over the years and she has been a great source of information. We talked for over 30 minutes and she agreed that at this point I needed to engage an elder law attorney to protect myself and gave me two referrals. She deals with families and trusts everyday and she had trouble wrapping her head around my sister’s insistence that she was decision maker, until we discussed her personal financial problems and desire for an inheritance. She represents my mom, but gave me sound advice on how to protect my mom in this situation.

All in all, it felt good to “take action” to prepare for what may be inevitable. I am on solid ground. My sister’s comments frequently make me doubt myself and look for my contribution to the situation we are in. Talking with objective professionals, whose job it is to be neutral and my mothers advocate was validating for me. I spend so much time trying to validate her, that I don’t think I was aware of the level of self doubt I had allowed myself to have.

We are entering a different phase. This  post is getting too long, so I will probably start a new one for my next update. I appreciate the support, advice and validation I get here. Now I have to figure out how to transition to LC again while moving forward with the decisions we need to make. It will be tricky…

[GaGrl]

The most difficult part of the next phase for you might be maintaining LC while your sister deals with each of these experts on her own.

You've got this!