14 years of struggling with my wife

[GoGo]

Oh, so crazy the last couple days.  Sigh.  That's what happens when she visits her mother.  Trauma all over again.

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[Teno]

Oh, so crazy the last couple days.  Sigh.  That's what happens when she visits her mother.  Trauma all over again.

I know that so well. I came to the conclusion my MIL hides in my wife for a while after visits. 

[braveSun]

As to the financing, we would make it work financially if my wife approached me about this. Unfortunately, I believe she simply used finances as a convenient excuse to quit the sessions.

My spouse uses finances as an excuse a lot. Lately we have started to communicate again, some. And I hear her saying that she doesn't want to hear about financial topics because it's not good news. Well, in my opinion it's just life. No need to discriminate between not so happy topics and happier topics. But there is a point to be made about talking only about the heavier topics in life.

Like finances.

It's like talking to a fragile person who needs to hear nice stuff for a while in order to be interested in the more mundane stuff. That doesn't make her a fully mature person who is fully on board with facts of life. But it helps to see that good, inspiring news can help lift the desperation a bit.

Hmmm... not sure if that helps, but still a point of view.

Brave

[walkinthepark247]

Oh, so crazy the last couple days.  Sigh.  That's what happens when she visits her mother.  Trauma all over again.

GoGo, there appears to be a similarity between certain elements of our experiences. My wife also has a very toxic relationship with her mother. Her mother IS a very toxic person. She goes from complaining horribly about the treatment from her mother to making me the enemy who "hates" her mother all in the snap of the fingers. I used to get all caught up in it. I've learned that I just have to remove myself from that situation. I have enough toxicity in my life on a daily basis. I have not spoken to MIL in almost 2 years. I don't give her the silent treatment either. I just don't go out of my way to say hello. Thankfully, my MIL lives a long ways away.

When my wife brings up the truly awful things MIL says, I just say "sorry to hear it." Nothing more. Whenever I have entered into that dialogue in the past, it has almost ALWAYS backfired on me. That was before I learned about Karpman. "You hate my mother." Truthfully, I don't like my MIL. She's always causing some sort of drama. There's no winning with her. I say this as someone who has been in past adult relationships and spoken regularly with the parents of my partner. So, I have just learned to not try any longer with MIL. Just "be." I've also learned to just extract myself from that dysfunctional triangle relationship. It is so clearly dysfunctional. I used to be so caught up in the Karpman Drama Triangle with those two. It was to my own detriment and the detriment of my marriage. I'm trying to work on my relationship with my spouse, not MIL. If this sounds selfish, so be it. I have sat down and explained this to my spouse. I sometimes have to politely remind her of these boundaries. It's always horribly backfired when I've tried to be kind to my MIL. The stuff my wife's mother says to my wife is just horrible. It existed since childhood. I wouldn't talk to a dog that way. But, my wife has this desperate desire to please her mother (which will never ever happen).

[GoGo]

Had a DBT intake session today.  I stayed for the first 20 minutes or so of the session.  This therapist definitely knew what was going on, better than any that had met my wife before.  Unfortunately, all that has gone on so far has been more of a "getting ready" than a "getting better".  DBT skills classes start in October.  She also recommended a therapist at that same office to do couples therapy in a DBT framework.  I'm not so sure about that, though.  Whenever we did couples therapy before, my wife mined ever session for excuses of her own behavior.  "I don't have to do this because you did that."  "Remember what the therapist said!"  This is all ironic because it wasn't what the therapist said.  It was just her skewed interpretation.  Would it be better with a therapist who knows BPD ways?  I'm really not so sure.  I think, at this point, it would be counterproductive.

[Radcliff]

That's fantastic about the DBT intake session!  DBT is a very long term proposition, so don't expect rapid progress.  But if you see any changes, validate the heck out of them.  The important thing is for your wife to stay in DBT. 

I absolutely would recommend DBT marriage therapy, if you both sign a release so that the marriage therapist can talk to your wife's DBT therapist.  That will prevent a situation where she tells different therapists different stories.  Of course, you won't accuse her of possibly doing that; it's better for the marriage therapist to suggest it.  If you have to, then just make it bilateral -- sign an agreement so the marriage therapist can talk to your therapist, too, on the theory that you're wasting money if these professionals aren't talking to stay on the same page.  If you are learning DBT principles along with your wife, it will help you support her, and she'll feel more supported.  DBT gives a framework to things that can move the focus away from blaming that can go on with pwBPD in traditional marriage counseling.  You are very lucky to have a wife headed for DBT and an opportunity to do DBT-based marriage counseling.  That's a best-case scenario.

WW

[badknees1]

Hello sir, just read your post from May 2018. I have been married 34 years to undiagnosed BPD wife. It is a good thing that you are seeking help for yourself and kids. I got my kids a counselor when they were in high school, better late than never, and though they are definitely  marked by a turbulent family life, they are fine young adults. But I still reinforce that they are loved just as they are, and always ask how they are doing. That will be your lifelong mission since they are in a home with brokenness. But by taking care of yourself and keeping connection with them, they ll overcome this unfortunate set of circumstances. You are not alone sir, lots of non BPD spouses, we are legion.

[GoGo]

OK.  Looks like I'm working just so I can put the family through therapy.  Sigh.

I'll see if we can work out couples DBT therapy.  Maybe get the kids in a DBT program too.  School and sports schedules are hard enough, and the nearest DBT therapists are a good 45 minute drive away.  I suppose we'll do what we can.

It's frustrating because, since starting therapy, she's been worse.  There's a "I'm doing it so bleep off" vibe to her.

[walkinthepark247]

GoGo, I would definitely encourage you to stick it out. I saw the exact same reaction when my spouse got into intense therapy. It seemed like there was a breaking point around the two-month mark where I noticed things improving. But, there was definitely a lot more angst and dysregulation right at the beginning. I cannot speak for your wife's therapist, but my spouse was working through some very heavy things that she had never addressed from her childhood.

Why do you want your children in DBT programs? My apologies if I missed your reasoning earlier.

Wentworth, what would you recommend as guidelines for identifying DBT marriage therapy? Are there any particular questions you would ask of the therapist before jumping in?

[GoGo]

My daughter already has emotional disregulation, partly as a teenager and partly from just dealing with my wife.  My son says passive aggressive, nasty junk to my daughter on a daily basis.  He's developing his own negativity that he needs to control.  So DBT skills classes would be a good idea.  Therapy for my daughter so she can control her anger.  I can help her, because she feels safe with me.  When I'm not there, she regularly ends up yelling at my wife and son, though admittedly in situations that my wife and son start.  It's really a nasty setup my wife has engineered.

[walkinthepark247]

*I ask because I'm already witnessing some very disturbing mirroring behaviors from one of my kids (D5). I have asked my wife to get the child into therapy. It always ends up with "Oh, you think I'm a $@%^ mother, don't you?" It's heartbreaking.

[Radcliff]

We are looking at getting D13 into DBT therapy, with my wife's agreement.  D13 is having a lot of difficulty with my wife and my separation, and is giving me the silent treatment.  The DBT skill set seems like a good fit for our case, and directly addresses my concerns about what behaviors D13 may have picked up from our family dysfunction.

Wentworth, what would you recommend as guidelines for identifying DBT marriage therapy? Are there any particular questions you would ask of the therapist before jumping in?

Hmm... .I don't want to claim to be too wise here.  The first criteria is someone who does DBT based marriage therapy and has space in their practice!  That's not a long list of people.  I'd want to know about the therapist's credentials, where they received their DBT training, who their practice group is, etc. (if they are doing true DBT they should be in a practice group that functions as a support system).  Finally, they have to be a good match for your spouse and be able to win and keep her or his trust.

WW

[GoGo]

*I ask because I'm already witnessing some very disturbing mirroring behaviors from one of my kids (D5). I have asked my wife to get the child into therapy. It always ends up with "Oh, you think I'm a $@%^ mother, don't you?" It's heartbreaking.

My daughter more mirrors me, my angry reactions to my wife's insanity, and my son more mirrors her, picking on my daughter.  At least in the obvious ways.  He made a nasty comment for absolutely no reason this morning to my daughter, so he loses his phone for the week.  Just trying to manage things.

I know things can get better in some ways.  A 17 year old I know told me how her father poisoned her relationship with her mother, but as her mother waited patiently, eventually the daughter realized that her father was the issue, not the mom.  The father may not be borderline, but he's got some kind of personality disorder for sure.

[Radcliff]

GoGo, I think you hit the nail on the head.  When we can be a calm, steady presence, our children notice it and may gravitate to us.  Even if they are gravitating to the pwBPD to keep them calm, they appreciate our healthy presence.  We can't always be perfect, and the kids may get upset when we show signs of strain, but I've recently learned that my kids did notice my calm strength over the years.    We are making a difference for them.

WW

[GoGo]

Going to a DBT expert couples therapist today. The intake person at this DBT center was ON IT with seeing my wife's behavior. Hopefully this therapist can manage well too. Wife's regular therapist, while thoroughly trained in DBT, doesn't seem as hip to things and doesn't seem to be doing anything useful with the wife.

[GoGo]

Well, that was a rollercoaster ride.  First session went too fast, just trying to establish what's going on.  Now the therapist is going on two-weeks vacation!  DBT skills classes start in a month, and I couples counseling continues then, too.  We shall see.

[Radcliff]

Good luck, that's excellent that she's headed for DBT.  It is the best possible thing she can be doing.  Now that her direction is set, are you ready to take a look at learning and applying the coping tools?  They dovetail nicely with DBT, and if you and she are each working your side of it, you'll make the best progress.

Are there tools that you've seen on the board here (look to the right) that resonate with you?  Other tools that don't feel like a good fit?

RC

[GoGo]

A lot of what I see on the board I've tried and have seen fail.  The first thing that needs to happen is she finally needs to accept that she has a problem.  Until then, we're just waiting.  I hope that one of the psychologists she's working with can be convinced to actually diagnose her with BPD.  Then she might, just might, actually realize she has a problem.  I understand they don't want to scare her away, but what she really needs is somebody other than me pinning the tail on the donkey.

[GoGo]

At this point, I think the most important thing is that she get a diagnosis for BPD.  Maybe some other diagnosis, but depression and general anxiety aren't what she has.  With a diagnosis she believes, maybe, just maybe she'll do the hard work it takes to make life easier and happier.

[zachira]

Being told her diagnosis is probably not going to help your wife. She will likely not accept it, as she does not seem to accept constructive feedback in general. The most important thing would likely be to get her into therapy with a therapist who can meet her where she is, while gently prodding her to face some of her issues. With this type of client, progress is slow, and it is usually one step forward, and then two steps back, and then forward again. I know you want to just tell her what her problem is, and I don't blame you with all you have had to deal with. Unfortunately, not being able to tell her exactly how you feel or anyone else doing this, is the problem. Do look at our materials on how to get a person with BPD into therapy. You might also consider going to therapy yourself, and then ask your wife to come so she can help you improve. Once you are in therapy together, the therapist can work on her without her likely realizing she is the actual target for therapy. Just my two cents. Keep us posted on how you are doing and what works. We are here to support you, listen,and learn from you. 

[Notgoneyet]

. Once you are in therapy together, the therapist can work on her without her likely realizing she is the actual target for therapy. Just my two cents. Keep us posted on how you are doing and what works. We are here to support you, listen, and learn from you. 

GOGO,
Zachira's 2cents is exactly what it took for my uBPDw of 36 yrs to finally begin getting some much needed help/relief from a great C. In her mind ALL of our relationship issues were COMPLETELY my fault & 100% caused by my actions past & present! heard it so many times I even began to believe it! 
So I did exactly as My so told me to do. I began to see a mc on my own . I found a great one that specializes in PD & addictions after a pretty extensive search. I hadn't been to more than 3 sessions when my so decided she better coming along to (make sure I was being honest about our situation).Crazy how Crazy works!  We've been going to successful mc & individual c for under a yr & no huge success stories yet but this c is a Validation Expert & I'm learning some of if from her as well. We've been to MANY others on & off over our 36 yrs that never lasted long because they just didn't (get it) according to my so.
Just getting my UBPDw into helpful therapy was a huge 1st step & the BPD /PD words are very seldom even mentioned.  My so has just signed up for DBT (waiting list) for her anxiety ,depression ,high emotions. as the c puts it. So if she sticks with it she will begin DBT therapy for BPD without even realizing she my have the aliment .
Crossing my fingers & hoping because I really need this for relief as much as my so. 
Wishing the hope & success that others of us have found w the help right here on these threads. Its a process & I've been told DBT is even more so & a long one at that, I'm also in it for the long haul.  NGY   

[GoGo]

She's in therapy because I threatened to leave her.  She starts DBT skills classes next month.  She's in 1:1 therapy with a DBT therapist, but I'm not seeing much of anything.  We started with a DBT couples therapist last week, but the therapist is going on vacation and we won't continue until October.  It's been a horribly painful waiting game.  My wife is going through the motions, but she's not working on the emotions.  As my therapist said, for her to take blame probably puts her in a panic that's almost like dying, but that's exactly what she needs to do to heal.  Catch 22.

I'm not seeking peace.  I'm seeking health.  Peace is easy.  I just roll over to whatever she demands.  I just meet all her needs as well as I can, letting her walk all over me.  That's peaceful, but it's far
more painful than fighting, at least for me.

[Radcliff]

As my therapist said, for her to take blame probably puts her in a panic that's almost like dying, but that's exactly what she needs to do to heal.  Catch 22.

Can you tell us more about this?

WW

[GoGo]

Can you tell us more about this?

I think that, when my wife is cornered on something she has done that's bad, it puts her in a panic/fear corner.  I know when I get anxious, I feel like I'm dying and I'll do anything to escape or avoid that feeling.  I think it's much the same for my wife, but it surrounds issues of responsibility, love, and blame in a relationship.

[Radcliff]

The thing that I'm questioning is the need for her to take the blame in order to heal.  That is extremely unlikely to happen, and is not in keeping with the way DBT works.  Sure, between two relatively healthy people that could work, but it's mistaken to apply it to BPD.

The word "dialectical" in DBT refers to the synthesis of two seemingly opposite concepts.  For DBT, those two concepts are acceptance and acknowledgement of the need for change.  It doesn't place blame and shame to motivate change, nor does it say that the person is wonderful just as they are with no need to change.  As the partner of someone going through DBT, if you expect them to step up and accept blame, you're going to be disappointed and likely undermine their progress.

What you are more likely to see is her starting to use coping tools.  She may validate you (the first time my wife in DBT did that, I almost fell over).  She may avoid blowing up in situations where previously she might have melted down.  Validate the heck out of progress like this.  Do not ever expect to come to a mutual understanding of responsibility for past behaviors.  In my experience with my wife, her distortions regarding past events remained unimproved.  Look forward.  You will see signs of improvement through DBT, and hopefully you'll get a toehold that you can expand with your wife to make the future better.  Does that make sense?

RC

[GoGo]

I'm not focused on the past in general.  I do look at recent events, though.  Her issues are in every interaction.  When I got up early to give her a hug, the moment we stopped, she made two complaints about our daughter.   I emailed her on this, as she had to go to work.  She said she hadn't realized they were complaints.  I explained that she had poisoned the moment for me, my attempt to reach out in a loving manner, and that they were most definitely complaints.  She just had no clue.  However, she acknowledged what she did and came to a realization that she screwed up.

Or the incident where I was making hard boiled eggs.  She decided to comment on part of the process she was thinking I'd do wrong.  I pointed out that I could do eggs perfectly fine without her and that there was a border she was crossing.  She replied that she was only trying to help because she saw that I might have done that thing wrong.  I repeated that she had passed a boundary, and she soon went into ranting about her jealousy over this and that and the other.

She's going to have to realize that she does this.  If she doesn't realize she does this, what good will therapy be?  Her therapist, who she feeds a massively filtered story, just sees her depression.  It's like somebody going into the ER, an arm ripped off, and the doctor diagnoses low blood pressure but doesn't notice the bleeding socket.  Yes, there's low blood pressure, but treat the damn source.  Yes, she probably has depression, but treat the source of it, which is her massively destructive behavior making most everyone in her life angry with her on a near constant basis.

In other words, I'm nearing the end of the line here.  I told her that, when we return to therapy next week, she sure as hell better stop all her denials and minimization of her behavior, or it's over.

[Radcliff]

I'm not focused on the past in general.  I do look at recent events, though.  Her issues are in every interaction.  When I got up early to give her a hug, the moment we stopped, she made two complaints about our daughter.   I emailed her on this, as she had to go to work.  She said she hadn't realized they were complaints.  I explained that she had poisoned the moment for me, my attempt to reach out in a loving manner, and that they were most definitely complaints.  She just had no clue.  However, she acknowledged what she did and came to a realization that she screwed up.

Hearing complaints right after a hug surely would kill the glow, and is not how I'd want to start the day.  But let's look at the other side.  How would you feel to sit down at work, and receive a complaint, at work, from home, then have to engage in a discussion and admit fault to keep the peace at home?  Would you be likely to really be at a good place with it, or resent the intrusion?  Would you really "get" the intended message?

"She hadn't realized they were complaints" -- That would have been frustrating to hear, because they clearly hit you as complaints.  But can you acknowledge that for her, they didn't feel like complaints?  To really come together on something like that, you each will have to understand the other.  You are asking her to understand you without reciprocating.

"She acknowledged what she did and came to a realization that she screwed up" -- can you read what you wrote and see the loaded language?  The blame placing? 

Or the incident where I was making hard boiled eggs.  She decided to comment on part of the process she was thinking I'd do wrong.  I pointed out that I could do eggs perfectly fine without her and that there was a border she was crossing.  She replied that she was only trying to help because she saw that I might have done that thing wrong.  I repeated that she had passed a boundary, and she soon went into ranting about her jealousy over this and that and the other.

Being second-guessed in the kitchen, or on any task, surely can drive a guy or gal nuts.  I've been there.  The question is what the healthiest response is.  Boundaries define how we react to a threat to our values; they are not about controlling the other person.  Take a look at this page on setting boundaries.  By pointing out that there was a border she was crossing, you quickly made it about controlling her behavior.  This would not feel good to any partner, let alone one with BPD.  She tried to explain herself, you asserted yourself again, and things went south.

We could work this egg example based on the way we teach boundaries here, and come up with a different way to approach this that works better in the relationship, but doesn't ask you to stuff your feelings or be a doormat.  Let us know if you're willing to work that example with us.

She's going to have to realize that she does this.  If she doesn't realize she does this, what good will therapy be?  Her therapist, who she feeds a massively filtered story, just sees her depression.  It's like somebody going into the ER, an arm ripped off, and the doctor diagnoses low blood pressure but doesn't notice the bleeding socket.  Yes, there's low blood pressure, but treat the damn source.  Yes, she probably has depression, but treat the source of it, which is her massively destructive behavior making most everyone in her life angry with her on a near constant basis.

OK, can you read this quote and see how really strongly focused you are on modifying her behavior?  Of course her behaviors are unhealthy.  Of course everyone's life would be better if she made some changes.  Changes are hard.  You can't control her.  You can support her.  What you can control, and get a lot of mileage out of to improve the situation, is your own behavior.  I think it was mentioned a while back that you have a lot of opportunities here.

In other words, I'm nearing the end of the line here.  I told her that, when we return to therapy next week, she sure as hell better stop all her denials and minimization of her behavior, or it's over.

It's beyond frustrating.  We get it.  And I'm sure you probably haven't told us even half the things that are going on that are making things miserable.  Despite that, your situation really stands out as one that has an upside, more so than most that we see here.  Working the tools on this site could make a huge difference for you.  Though your wife does have unhealthy behaviors, sometimes you poke her once or even twice before things go bad.  She has some resilience, more so than many or most of the pwBPD described on these boards.  For your part, a few relatively straightforward changes could make a big difference.  Does your marriage deserve your best shot?  Are you willing to work with us on what you can change on your side of the fence?

RC

[GoGo]

Hearing complaints right after a hug surely... .

Radcliff , thanks for this long and thoughtful reply.  I fear mine's going to pale in comparison and not be what you want to hear.

You are wholly correct that I'm set on modifying her behavior.  Her behavior is utterly unacceptable.  She has to modify it, or I will not only take myself out of her life, I will do my best to take the kids out of her life.  Of course I cannot modify her behavior.  I can only urge her to.  I can twist her arm. I can show her the way.  I can't actually modify it for her.

Why am I trying to modify her behavior?  Because I've tried modifying my own, and the situation is still wholly unacceptable.  I've tried everything a thousand times.  I've heard her concerns, understood her concerns, sympathized with them and so on.  I've been calm and loving and strong all at the same time.  All it gets me is a knife in the chest.  It's a total waste of time with her.  Not gonna happen again.

I can scream at her, or I can be loving.  She'll still nail me and the kids time and time again.  I'm not interested, not anymore.

She's been going to DBT classes, seeing a therapist for DBT, working in her skills book, and going to couples therapy with a DBT-trained psychologist from the same place she takes her classes.

She does all of this because I said that either she changes or she's out.  After 14 years of screaming, crying, begging, convincing, wheedling, dealing, and pleading, it took a threat of divorce to open her eyes.

She then had an epiphany about how controlling she is.  She read an online quiz about "are you controlling" and got a big, fat yes.

She then, with the help of therapy and DBT class, has worked on cutting her controlling statements.  She's made actual progress here.  It's been nice.  It's hard for her, since she has these thoughts constantly.  She's just learned not to act on them, at least with me.  I believe she still does with the kids.  However, over the past two weeks, she's slowly gained more of a hold on this single behavior.

At the same time, her behavior in other ways grew very erratic.  She became clingy, demanding multiple hugs each day.  She made accusations.  She yelled after our last couples therapy session.  She keeps trying to assign blame and avoid blame.  She expects that her one area of progress will somehow heal 14 years of pain she's caused.

She's looking for validation in grand gestures.  She wants me to suddenly be highly interested in her, feeling all the love.

We've been at this stage before.  Where I start to be nicer to her, and she immediately resumes her worst behaviors.  I'm not going there.

See, she's not acting to learn how to control her emotions.  She's acting as a show, to try and win me over.  The best example of this is how she repeatedly makes a show of doing her DBT workbook sheets in front of me.

The couples therapist made a good metaphor.  I'm a cat that's been abused, and I'm hiding under the stairs.  Of course I've clawed and bit my abuser many times, but now I've decided I'm not having any of this abuse anymore.  Hence, the hiding.  Hence, me pulling back from the relationship.  She is the cat abuser who is now fearful of losing her cat.  She is on her hands and knees, reaching under the stairs, trying to grab me as she says sorry and promises never to hit the cat again.  Of course that just scares the cat further under the stairs.  Of course, when the cat comes out, she hits it again.  When the cat stays under the stairs, she cries and moans and feels out of sorts because the cat's love is gone.  Oh what shall she do?

This metaphor only went to far with her. I came up with another one yesterday, which she seemed to be more comfortable with:
A car crashed into a fire hydrant.  Water is shooting everywhere.  She is the only one who can fix the situation, the only one with the tools, authorization, and access.  For 14 years, people told her to clean up the mess, that she had to do it, and for 14 years she denied that there was a broken hydrant or a car crash.  Now she has finally acknowledged that there is water spraying into the air.  She's even put her hand into the blast, blocking some of the flow.  She then turns to the crowd that has gathered and says, "So be nice to me.  I've fixed the problem!  Look at how hard it is to push the flow back.  My arm muscles are flexing and I'm so tired.  The water is not all shooting high into the air anymore."

Of course the crowd looks and is unimpressed.  They have been rained upon for years.  The mess is still there.  The problem is not fixed.  The street is flooded with water.  This person is just putting her hand into the blast and wanting plaudits for it.  The crowd feels angry now.  Then she feels angry, for she has finally realized the spray problem and has even placed her hand, with so much effort, to damp the blast.  Why isn't she getting praised for her amazing realization and stunning effort?

So the crowd explains that she has to go to the valve down the block, open the lock on it, turn the valve to stop the flow, then come back.  Then she can tow the car away, revealing the damage.  She'll have to jackhammer through the concrete and dig down to rip out the bent pipe.  She'll replace the vertical pipe, fill in the dirt, pour new concrete, install a new fire hydrant, and then go back to turn the valve on.  A proper repair.

If she's doing those things, the crowd will be happy.  Then there's a great chance we'll have a relationship again.  If she's not doing those things, if she's standing with her hand blocking the water and refusing to see the complexity and scope of the issue, then there won't be a relationship.  The ball is in her court.  The power is in her hands.

It doesn't matter if the crowd is angry or the crowd is happy.  If the crowd is nice or the crowd is mean doesn't matter.  She has her job to do.  She has to acknowledge the size of the job.  As long as she does the job, things should be OK.  As long as she doesn't do it or acknowledge it, there will be a huge, ongoing disaster.

In the end, as long as I see her going to the classes and trying to learn the material, I will stay and watch.  I expect progress, though not perfection.  The payback will be that I will rarely if ever bite or claw unless I've been bitten or clawed first.  The payback she gets is that the better she behaves, the less I have to defend myself and the kids, and so the less I have to hurt her in response to her behavior.  That's not what she wants, but that's what she gets.  If she keeps it up for long enough, there may be room for my heart to thaw and for us to have a loving relationship again.  It's hard though, because she understands so little of the harm she causes.  She has discovered one thing, the controlling words, and she seems to think that's it.  That she's done, or almost done.

I've said this all to her.  I stay on message. I try not to get sucked into her garbage.  That's all I can do.  What you're suggesting, as far as I can see, would be utterly counterproductive.

She still says all her trauma was a long time ago, and has nothing to do with today.
She still tries to assign blame.  Almost every single day.
She still tries to use others against me.  She got my dad involved a couple of days ago.
She still ignores the depth of what she's done.
She still disassociates, saying something then denying she ever said it.
But at least she's far less controlling than she was a month ago.  That's more progress than I've ever seen. 
I have my opening.  I'm going to wedge it open wider with all my might.

[mssalty]

Marriage counseling is not helpful if you're not working with a shared reality or with a partner who is willing to accept some criticism/blame.  It's a threatening situation with BPD because they feel like they are/will be under attack and there will be two people pointing the finger at them.  The flip side is that anything a counselor says about you can and will be used against you, and even distorted if necessary.   

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limit.  PART 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330038.0