High-Functioning Purgatory/Assessment (sorry, long)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Sorry this is long, but I’m processing and am I’m interested in feedback from anyone with some suggestions.  Right now it feels like my marriage is on a slow death spiral that will terminate around the time our last daughter leaves for college (9 years from now).  Looking for any thoughts on areas I could work on that might help or willing to consider suggestions to blow it up and not waste her time thinking things are fine.  I’m a stayer, mainly for my girls, but posting this on Undecided because I want some honest feedback either way.

Background:

Status: Married 20 years.  BPD starting showing up in 1999, but (waif/hermit) wife was diagnosed in 2010, but not told to her.  She still does not know.  She is high functioning and I’m the only person who gets to see the dark side, although D13, D11 and D9 see bits and pieces.  When it was first diagnosed I thought we would not make it through the first teenager.  But, thanks to the Lessons and the great people on this board, here we are.

MC: broke down a few years ago because she would never do the work, forgot the session before we even left the parking lot and the T wouldn’t hold her accountable.  MC said wife was a master of deflection, maybe the best she has ever seen.

Wife T: she was seeing the T that diagnosed her, but the T believes in building my wife’s esteem at the cost of everything else.  I guess in a way this has given my wife more of a sense of self.  The good is that her emotional dysregulations are much less frequent, but this has come at the expense of increasing her narcissistic tendencies.  I requested my wife stop seeing the T when it was clear that it became a $160/hour venue for her to trash her friends and siblings and get validated for doing so, and the takeaway message my wife received was to just do things behind my back if there was a chance I might want to discuss anything.  The T is an MC who has no specific training in BPD, but did make the diagnosis. 

Me: massive codependencies of the past are gone through counseling and self help.  Learned the tools to cope and have been able to keep the relationship level while keeping our girls protected from, but not aware of the BPD.  Work, health and all aspects of my life outside of marriage are going great.  I still have a very strong longing for a relationship with intimacy (not sex, but sharing) at some point in my life.  Would also like someone to do activities with.  Lack of hope and apathy are my current struggles.

Us: Roommates with benefits?  We cannot discuss anything related to feelings or contentious subjects (anything personal or family related) without dysregulation that never really resolves.  I have learned to be strong and keep our stuff on the correct side of the fence, but have never been able to feel safe in conversations as the B&W thinking always remains, and anything I share gets turned into Stupid Husband material for the future.  We have a decent sex life, if you consider there is no relational intimacy. It feels like we have plateaued don’t really have any realistic hope for more.

Current Issues:

1)   Narcissism: a majority of our time talking is my BPDw telling me how “pathetic” her sister (who is really sweet and thinks she is loved) and all my wife’s friends are.  Another large part is telling me how she needs to speak up more where she volunteers because the others there never listen to her, things always go wrong, and they should have listened to her. She has special discernment about things yet to come and what people are really thinking.  “I told you so” is a frequent response to anything I share.  I find myself drawn to meaningless topics you would discuss with coworkers or resorting to the “Look … squirrel” defense.

2)   Shared activities: we have none.  Maybe watching movies on occasion.  I like to exercise, be outside, love animals, cook, be with my girls.  She likes to watch Netflix and anything to do with fat people (OCD, she is skinny), or shop on the Internet.  She doesn’t like to cook with me as she prefers to use the time for her iPad.  She loves our girls, but doesn’t like them?  Any chance she gets to put them in front of the TV or remove them from the room she is in she does.  I have tried ballroom dancing (she won’t work to learn her parts) and a few other things, but I have to push on it constantly or nothing happens.  She provides no energy or effort.  Honestly I’m exhausted even trying anymore.  I just don’t have the energy to provide our income, do my own laundry and cooking, take care of our girls and then be 100% responsible for finding some activity for us to do, given all the failed attempts.

3)   Complaining: about everything.  Pathetic friends and family, people at church, kids, pets, job, news, taxes, exercise, diet. 

4)   Controlling: she watches every move, body placement, word said, facial expression of our daughters, me too somewhat less.  Dinner at the family table is challenging because she interrupts most conversations to point out an elbow out of place, a fork held the wrong way, a bite too big.  She doesn’t like our girls going anywhere without one of us there to make sure they are safe.  If she is the escort then they need to stay within a certain tether region constantly of they hear about it, even our D13.

5)   Not friends: to be brutally honest, my wife is not someone I would interact with if we weren’t married.  Between the conceit and the disdain for almost everyone she has ever met (I know this is a low self esteem therapy), including me and our girls, she really isn’t ever fun to be around.  When we met she didn’t act this way, but after we had children and her father committed suicide everything changed.  I don’t know if the first person was ever real.  If she was, she died 11 years ago.

6)   Respect for me: she cannot feel it or truly show it because then she would feel bad about herself.  I get it on cards at anniversary time, Father’s day, and that is it.  She doesn’t hit me or swear at me.  Just little digs and zingers about once per day on average during normal times, 3x that on low cycles.

7)   High Functioning: She knows where her bread is buttered and stops short of anything that would overtly make her look bad or cause me to leave.  Death by 1000 cuts.  Anything I give her in terms of validation or praise is appreciated, but goes into the bottomless pit and becomes the standard. 

Options as I see them:

A)   Continue as is and live day to day.  I continue to grow in communication skills and am there 100% for my daughters.  Don’t worry about tomorrow or ten years from now.

B)   Take a risk: realize that this r/s is not good for either of us and the course we are on now leads to more nothingness.  Try to find the right avenue (new MC?) to really hit the issues hard.  High chance of very stressful living during this time and history has me believing there is a low likelihood of success and therefore not keen on this option.  Kind of go big or go home.  High risk low reward.  I do not know of a good T in our area that can handle BPD, and I have looked.

C)   Disclose her BPD diagnosis to her and ask her to seek treatment.  Trying this with an expert deflectionist seems pointless and could quickly move to D.

D)   Fold ‘em: would it be unfair of me to continue the façade that things are “fine” just so I don’t lose 50% access to my girls?   I can’t see taking this approach because of what it would do to my girls, but a very small part of me thinks this is the only thing that would get my wife to try and work on something.  It is just as likely she could go into an abandonment shell and quickly turn Witch on me.  Her first husband just up and disappeared one day (no kids).  You can imagine how raw she is from that.

I’m not really looking for encouragement as I don’t feel bad about anything.  Life for me is pretty good outside of my numb marriage.  I just want to make sure I’m thinking clearly and not missing any options I have not considered. 

Thanks, Aury

[Aurylian]

Sorry this is long, but I’m processing and am I’m interested in feedback from anyone with some suggestions.  Right now it feels like my marriage is on a slow death spiral that will terminate around the time our last daughter leaves for college (9 years from now).  Looking for any thoughts on areas I could work on that might help or willing to consider suggestions to blow it up and not waste her time thinking things are fine.  I’m a stayer, mainly for my girls, but posting this on Undecided because I want some honest feedback either way.

Background:

Status: Married 20 years.  BPD starting showing up in 1999, but (waif/hermit) wife was diagnosed in 2010, but not told to her.  She still does not know.  She is high functioning and I’m the only person who gets to see the dark side, although D13, D11 and D9 see bits and pieces.  When it was first diagnosed I thought we would not make it through the first teenager.  But, thanks to the Lessons and the great people on this board, here we are.

MC: broke down a few years ago because she would never do the work, forgot the session before we even left the parking lot and the T wouldn’t hold her accountable.  MC said wife was a master of deflection, maybe the best she has ever seen.

Wife T: she was seeing the T that diagnosed her, but the T believes in building my wife’s esteem at the cost of everything else.  I guess in a way this has given my wife more of a sense of self.  The good is that her emotional dysregulations are much less frequent, but this has come at the expense of increasing her narcissistic tendencies.  I requested my wife stop seeing the T when it was clear that it became a $160/hour venue for her to trash her friends and siblings and get validated for doing so, and the takeaway message my wife received was to just do things behind my back if there was a chance I might want to discuss anything.  The T is an MC who has no specific training in BPD, but did make the diagnosis. 

Me: massive codependencies of the past are gone through counseling and self help.  Learned the tools to cope and have been able to keep the relationship level while keeping our girls protected from, but not aware of the BPD.  Work, health and all aspects of my life outside of marriage are going great.  I still have a very strong longing for a relationship with intimacy (not sex, but sharing) at some point in my life.  Would also like someone to do activities with.  Lack of hope and apathy are my current struggles.

Us: Roommates with benefits?  We cannot discuss anything related to feelings or contentious subjects (anything personal or family related) without dysregulation that never really resolves.  I have learned to be strong and keep our stuff on the correct side of the fence, but have never been able to feel safe in conversations as the B&W thinking always remains, and anything I share gets turned into Stupid Husband material for the future.  We have a decent sex life, if you consider there is no relational intimacy. It feels like we have plateaued don’t really have any realistic hope for more.

Current Issues:

1)   Narcissism: a majority of our time talking is my BPDw telling me how “pathetic” her sister (who is really sweet and thinks she is loved) and all my wife’s friends are.  Another large part is telling me how she needs to speak up more where she volunteers because the others there never listen to her, things always go wrong, and they should have listened to her. She has special discernment about things yet to come and what people are really thinking.  “I told you so” is a frequent response to anything I share.  I find myself drawn to meaningless topics you would discuss with coworkers or resorting to the “Look … squirrel” defense.

2)   Shared activities: we have none.  Maybe watching movies on occasion.  I like to exercise, be outside, love animals, cook, be with my girls.  She likes to watch Netflix and anything to do with fat people (OCD, she is skinny), or shop on the Internet.  She doesn’t like to cook with me as she prefers to use the time for her iPad.  She loves our girls, but doesn’t like them?  Any chance she gets to put them in front of the TV or remove them from the room she is in she does.  I have tried ballroom dancing (she won’t work to learn her parts) and a few other things, but I have to push on it constantly or nothing happens.  She provides no energy or effort.  Honestly I’m exhausted even trying anymore.  I just don’t have the energy to provide our income, do my own laundry and cooking, take care of our girls and then be 100% responsible for finding some activity for us to do, given all the failed attempts.

3)   Complaining: about everything.  Pathetic friends and family, people at church, kids, pets, job, news, taxes, exercise, diet. 

4)   Controlling: she watches every move, body placement, word said, facial expression of our daughters, me too somewhat less.  Dinner at the family table is challenging because she interrupts most conversations to point out an elbow out of place, a fork held the wrong way, a bite too big.  She doesn’t like our girls going anywhere without one of us there to make sure they are safe.  If she is the escort then they need to stay within a certain tether region constantly of they hear about it, even our D13.

5)   Not friends: to be brutally honest, my wife is not someone I would interact with if we weren’t married.  Between the conceit and the disdain for almost everyone she has ever met (I know this is a low self esteem therapy), including me and our girls, she really isn’t ever fun to be around.  When we met she didn’t act this way, but after we had children and her father committed suicide everything changed.  I don’t know if the first person was ever real.  If she was, she died 11 years ago.

6)   Respect for me: she cannot feel it or truly show it because then she would feel bad about herself.  I get it on cards at anniversary time, Father’s day, and that is it.  She doesn’t hit me or swear at me.  Just little digs and zingers about once per day on average during normal times, 3x that on low cycles.

7)   High Functioning: She knows where her bread is buttered and stops short of anything that would overtly make her look bad or cause me to leave.  Death by 1000 cuts.  Anything I give her in terms of validation or praise is appreciated, but goes into the bottomless pit and becomes the standard. 

Options as I see them:

A)   Continue as is and live day to day.  I continue to grow in communication skills and am there 100% for my daughters.  Don’t worry about tomorrow or ten years from now.

B)   Take a risk: realize that this r/s is not good for either of us and the course we are on now leads to more nothingness.  Try to find the right avenue (new MC?) to really hit the issues hard.  High chance of very stressful living during this time and history has me believing there is a low likelihood of success and therefore not keen on this option.  Kind of go big or go home.  High risk low reward.  I do not know of a good T in our area that can handle BPD, and I have looked.

C)   Disclose her BPD diagnosis to her and ask her to seek treatment.  Trying this with an expert deflectionist seems pointless and could quickly move to D.

D)   Fold ‘em: would it be unfair of me to continue the façade that things are “fine” just so I don’t lose 50% access to my girls?   I can’t see taking this approach because of what it would do to my girls, but a very small part of me thinks this is the only thing that would get my wife to try and work on something.  It is just as likely she could go into an abandonment shell and quickly turn Witch on me.  Her first husband just up and disappeared one day (no kids).  You can imagine how raw she is from that.

I’m not really looking for encouragement as I don’t feel bad about anything.  Life for me is pretty good outside of my numb marriage.  I just want to make sure I’m thinking clearly and not missing any options I have not considered. 

Thanks, Aury

[felix22]

Hi Aury,

First of all, probably one of the best pieces of writing I have seen on here. I can tell that things must be under control to some degree, since you have it SO totally laid out CLEARLY. It sounds like you have no delusions to me. I don't have an answer. Just going to share some thoughts, based on your writing.

The first thought I have, is that my understanding of BPD includes this; People with BPD don't respond well at all to being told they have BPD. You may look into that some more, but that's my understanding. I don't see that as a good tactic.

Second Thought. I had a ':)evelopmental Psych' class a few years ago, after finishing my degree. I took it for interest. It was called 'womb to tomb' in slang. Anyway, I found it very interesting to discover that Men often win custody disputes over their children. It seems counter-intuitive, I know. I come from a divorced family (before I was ten years old), which is part of why I found it so interesting. My parents had joint custody, 50/50... .one of the first in our city. This is just to let you know, that any fears over potential custody issues may be unfounded. Again, of course, you may want to look into this on your own. However, your girls obviously love you, and you are also the breadwinner.

Third Thought. My parents divorced. It was challenging at first, yet in retrospect, I am very thankful that they did. They both ended up being happy people, afterwards. I am not sure this is a possibility for your wife, from the sounds of it; she seems pre-disposed to negativity. However, my Mom left the marriage because she didn't feel like my Father loved her anymore. She ended up achieving what I really think is a sense of well being. She is single, and has been for years. She has her own home, and takes care of herself. She doesn't come off as lonely. What I am getting at, is that I am thankful they didn't stay together. They both found something that suited them.

Lastly, to quote you, "Honestly I’m exhausted even trying anymore.  I just don’t have the energy to provide our income, do my own laundry and cooking, take care of our girls and then be 100% responsible for finding some activity for us to do, given all the failed attempts". What have you got to lose? You already do everything anyhow.

I know this is all easier said than done, because I am on the same boards, for similar reasons. Dealing with someone who really doesn't give a rats-___ about me. And, I haven't found the strength to jump ship yet. Still, I just wanted to share my thoughts. It really is a wonderful, organized piece of writing. Best of luck to you Aury!


"Honestly I’m exhausted even trying anymore.  I just don’t have the energy to provide our income, do my own laundry and cooking, take care of our girls and then be 100% responsible for finding some activity for us to do, given all the failed attempts"

[Aurylian]

Third Thought. My parents divorced. It was challenging at first, yet in retrospect, I am very thankful that they did. They both ended up being happy people, afterwards. I am not sure this is a possibility for your wife, from the sounds of it; she seems pre-disposed to negativity. However, my Mom left the marriage because she didn't feel like my Father loved her anymore. She ended up achieving what I really think is a sense of well being. She is single, and has been for years. She has her own home, and takes care of herself. She doesn't come off as lonely. What I am getting at, is that I am thankful they didn't stay together. They both found something that suited them.

Thanks Felix. 

I am keeping a close eye on the well-being of my girls.  It helped tremendously when I found out about BPD and have been able to help them with their expectations of mom.  Without disclosing what is going on with her I have been able to help them feel validated and also keep their mom from going too far.  I really did believe for a while that I would have to end it to save them.  But, right now we are all surviving. 

One thing that really helped is I have regular date nights with each of them and nothing is off limits to discuss.  We have great open communication and that helps them cope with the other stuff that might be going on.  It's also great that my D13 is mature beyond her years and has some amazing God-given wisdom in how to respond to mom. She isn't perfect, but she often is able to provide a soft answer to turn away any pending wrath. 

[felix22]

I am working right now. Just had to let you know that I cracked-up thinking about what you had said. That her first husband just up and left one day. I know, it's self indulgent of me. But, really, that is hilarious! Especially in the context of her behavior as you've described.

[felix22]

Also, I think that it's great you have such a close relationship with your daughters. And, that you take the time to spend with them. That was so key for me growing up also. From my observation and experience, the parent-child relationship, at it's best usually eclipses the western notion of 'romantic relationships'. Again, take care.