why is it that The BPDs in our lives never have to be accountable?

[cj8121]

We (the nons) have to watch what we say, when we say it,and how we say it.  We have to watch how we respond to their behavior 24/7.  I didn't have to do that with my kids when I was raising them.  Sometimes I think they are spoiled and want their own way 24/7 and when they don't get it they throw a temper tantrum.  It doesn't matter how I address my BPDh what I say or how I say it he treats me the same no matter what, because he's not getting what he wants. The times I find the most interesting is when he asks for my opinion and I give it to him and he doesn't like it or agree with it he gets mad.  So I tell him to quit asking me what I think.  And I am talking about something as simple is what we might want for dinner. Does anyone else have this issue.  Thanks for listening every night is the same thing around my house any more very exhausting.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[mikewbpdwife]

Hi cj8121, i can relate to your situation well with my uBPDw. My wife never responds to my feelings well and will use ways to divert attention to her OWN needs which results me saying she's selfish over and over again... After reading the helpful lessons here i realise she is always testing me to fulful her emotional.needs. And if she doesnt get what she wanted she will throw her temper with rude remarks. I found out its true they will exhibit childlike temperment and wont collaborate well to discussions. Currently im validating her validations using one of the tools here which enables me to express her thoughts better instead of resulting us in  frustrating moments. My honeymoon period is over and I want us to communicate well and prepare for a future together... Hope everything works out well for you.

[sad but wiser]

":)o you understand that it isn't my fault?" was my ex's favorite question.  Nothing was ever his fault or his responsibility, other than the responsibility to point out the flaws and errors of everyone else's ways.  He could rage at me all day and then expect me to be loving to him at night.  His way or the highway.

[laelle]

":)o you understand that it isn't my fault?" was my ex's favorite question.  Nothing was ever his fault or his responsibility, other than the responsibility to point out the flaws and errors of everyone else's ways.  He could rage at me all day and then expect me to be loving to him at night.  His way or the highway.

yep  Mine would rage at me and then go silent waiting for me to apologize.

[Auspicious]

When we choose to partner with people who have poor emotional control, who behave in ways that we don't like, then we are choosing the consequences.

We can't control what someone else does. We can control what we do.

As long as we focus on the other person, on how unjust it all is, etc., we don't make changes that improve anything. When we accept responsibility for our own lives, we can start making changes.

You can choose to stay and not use the staying tools ... .  or you can choose to stay and use the staying tools. The choice - the power - is really yours. 

[Auspicious]

The times I find the most interesting is when he asks for my opinion and I give it to him and he doesn't like it or agree with it he gets mad.  So I tell him to quit asking me what I think.

So, telling him to quit asking isn't working. You don't have the power to tell him what to do.

Let's look at what choices you do have.

-You might refrain from giving your opinion, at least for a time.

-Or, you might simply walk away when he doesn't like your opinion and gets mad. "I don't like being yelled at. I'm going to go have dinner by myself. I'll be back in a while."

What are some other options you can think of?

[yeeter]

In answer to your title question - if you think about it - they really are accountable for their own behavior.  They have a disease.  It blocks them from being able to see certain things (like how their behavior impacts others).  Ultimately, this has no doubt affected their relationship with many different people over the years.  And many of these people dont give them the time of day because of it.

Life has a way of regulating to the degree the person can get away with it.

yes the relationship isnt balanced and you might be feeling like you arent being treated fairly or things arent reciprocal.  The path forward here is to focus on your own behavior and drawing lines and deciding what YOU will do in a particular dynamic.  I get this dynamic at work a lot - the boss asks what we think, but he really didnt want to know - then gets upset when the answer isnt what he wanted it to be (sometimes even when it would violate a fundamental law of physics!)

Before responding, sometimes it helps to probe a little bit with things like:  'what insight could I offer that would be useful to you?"  (knowing that my genuine opinion might not really be what is wanted).  Or even 'your thoughts are rational and valid, so it really doesnt matter what I think"

Most times, what they really want is validation of their own thoughts/feelings - not genuinely interested in what you really think.

If you offer an opinion and it upsets him, as Auspicious states just smile and disengage.  If he isnt liking the responses he gets, he will figure out eventually to just quit asking.  But then you are losing the opportunity to hear what his thoughts and feelings are, and to engage in the items he is processing with his life.

[cj8121]

Thanks to all who responded to my venting. 

Yeeter, I have responded to him as to ask what insight can I offer, how can I help and also i have said you are very smart what ever you decide will be fine.  His response "what  you don't have a mind of your own" I say "yes i do and i know you do too so you will make the right choice.  Then he doesnt speak to me for the day. When I smile and disengage I get the silent treatment.

Auspicious, This is the strange thing he was not always like this.  I have known him since I was 12 we have been married for 28 years.  Hes gotten like this over time.  It gets worse.  He had a good childhood a really good life.

Maybe he is a narcissist.

Iaelle,  mine does the same thing.  I feel like all I do is apologize.  And if I don't he tells me he deserves an

apology I say I will apologize but i need to know what I did.  He says never mind I don't want to talk about.

MikewBPDwife,  The more I validate the more upset he becomes.

[LetItBe]

":)o you understand that it isn't my fault?"

Reminds me of my uBPDbf's answer when I have even the most delicately-worded, small request, "I'll agree to this (sometimes), but I can't make you 'okay.'"  Yes, I'm a mature adult and I realize this, and I'm 'okay' independent of this r/s.    There is a difference between expecting someone to make me okay versus having a boundary or one of those pesky needs to be met in order to keep the r/s 'okay' enough for me to want to stay in it.

[Auspicious]

Then he doesnt speak to me for the day. When I smile and disengage I get the silent treatment.

You can't control how he will respond to what you do. He can choose to reject it. If so, he's making a choice that is harming himself.

Another option is to simply state your choice and be done with it. Remove yourself from the situation if he makes it miserable.

Him: "what you don't have a mind of your own"

You: "yes i do and i know you do too so you will make the right choice. "

You: "I just don't feel like giving an opinion right now."

Him: "argle bargle blah" {something to goad you}

You: "I just don't feel like giving an opinion right now. Excuse me; I'm going out for a bit. I'll be back in awhile."


It's OK if he doesn't like it. You aren't there to be blasted with his response.

[yeeter]

And I pretty much quit apologizing. It's now a rare event where I will apologize, and it seems to have helped (I think often my wife interprets an apology as an admission of guilt and doing her wrong)

[Chosen]

One thing I find useful is that when H pushes me to give him some opinion, unless I have a strong one, I just tell him "Hmmm... . I can't really decide."  Sometimes he gets mad but there is nothing he can do, and he can't argue with the fact that I don't have an opinion right now.  He also can't say I am not trying to communicate with him. 

Also, H has a habit of asking me to pick between A and B, and after I picked, he will suggest C.  I used to get annoyed but now I just let him be.  It's usually something insignificant like where to go for dinner.

[sad but wiser]

CJ, I think the hardest part is realizing that you aren't going to have a "normal" relationship with this person.  You will have to "handle" your responses and reactions all the time.  It is a kind of controlled egg-shell walking.  It feels a bit fake and manipulative, like you are a therapist having a relationship with a client.  That doesn't feel like a husband/wife relationship and it really isn't - not the one you signed on for anyway. 

   This is a relationship where you have to take care of yourself and your own emotional needs and handle him as well.  That's it.  All the tactics and techniques are for your sanity.  The boundaries are for you, so that you survive and don't lose yourself.

[crazymade]

cj8121, i'm glad you proposed this topic. it will help a lot of folks here. i've seen so many of the behaviors you and chosen and yeeter describe. it is infuriating to be talking about dinner, a choice between A or B, make a decision and then C get thrown out there. i had a breakthrough the other night, i took my chances. he suggested steak escape or chinese and i chose chinese. we needed to grocery shop, but not that night. he wanted me to  make a decision where i could eat (i'm  hypoglycemic) and then go shopping. i had decided on chinese, and wanted to get it to go and go home and eat it. once i had made that decision, he kept trying to throw out options that would satisfy his need. in the end, i stuck to my decision and he didn't get mad! i think it makes him mad when i say we could do this or we could do that, i'm really believing it confuses them. he seemed happy that a decision was made.

as for the accountability... . my own personal take is that they don't want it. if there's a decision to be made, you make it, and then it's your fault. happens all the time. and one night, i finally got the truth from my husband about my broken hand.  he keeps telling people i broke my hand by punching our hardwood table when he was dysregulated and raging . lucky me, i broke my 5th metacarpal on my right hand, also known as a 'boxer's fracture'. (yes, i'm right handed and still went to work.) well, about two weeks ago he and i were talking and he finally told the truth: my hand did hit the table, but it was when he was raging and shoved me to the floor. he also said in that same conversation that he'll never tell anybody he did it. i only went to the emergency room to get a splint put on it. i never got to go for follow up because he would rage if i did. he didn't want me to have pins, surgery or anything because he has so much. now my right hand is so ugly! the top of that knuckle is below the bottom of the 4th knuckle. and it does hurt all the time. that conversation was an epiphany for me. he always says if i make the decision it will be my fault, but him not wanting to take responsibility for my broken hand REALLY showed me how he feels about accepting responsibility for it.

when he rages, one of his memes is 'when are you going to start taking responsibility?'As soon as i heard about projection, i also knew what was going on.

Also, when it's time to pay OUR bills, he will say it's MY problems. his words, 'i took care of your problem.' we've never had bills together, according to him. any bill we've ever had has been MY bill.a few months ago, a new game came out that he had to have... . i bought it because he had said not to worry about rent, that he had it taken care of. i was an idiot! at the last minute his mother bailed him out and paid rent for us. he said 'i told you i had it taken care of'. 

i'm sure i could cite many many examples, but i'll stop here, i think i've demonstrated my point to answer the topic question.

the only time he will accept responsibility is if it involves prison. the situation we're in, one (him) or both of us could be going to prison for something we really didn't do. but on this issue, he is more than willing to take responsibility for it all.

day to day life, he gets away scott free. from what i see, he does get a pass from everyone he knows. everyone he knows being a very small circle! he may be missing out on other relationships, but he is ignorantly blissful. he throws a temper tantrum and the whole world comes to an end. he will make your life miserable if/when his needs are not met. his whole attitude is that he doesn't give a F. do any other BPD SOs have this attitude?  if they don't care, they don't have to be accountable. Also, my husband has said he doesn't feel remorse, and is unapologetic about anything he does.

My strategy most of the time is to disengage and take care of things myself. When he's in a mood, even if you met all his needs, he still wouldn't be happy. i love him, so i support him as far as i'm capable. for a while, i had lost myself. but i've been coming here, talking to people, and reading the lessons, and as other suggested changing my behavior.

[iluminati]

The answer to your question is simple: they can't be.  If they could, none of us would be here.  They literally lack the tools for doing so.  Now they can choose to change.  But they have to decide it on their own. 

On our end, we can either stay with their horribly mentally ill loved ones, or we can move on.  The choice is yours.

[coasterhusband]

CJ, I think the hardest part is realizing that you aren't going to have a "normal" relationship with this person. 

What "sad but wiser" said!

I feel your pain and I feel your struggle. I go through it every day. I am on guard and guarded, I have to pick my words specifically, I have to deal with the situation minute by minute. I'm never truly myself (who can be when  you're ALWAYS thinking about someone else?). It hurts and it's sad.

There isn't much room for me in our relationship, but I'm trying to build one where I can be comfortable and draw and stick to (!) my boundaries.

Sadly, the answer, as far as I can tell, is that you have to just accept and find peace. Or leave. Neither is right or wrong, but you have to choose what's right for you.

[sad but wiser]

Coasterhusband - That post made me feel so sad, for all of us who hoped for a bright future with the person we thought we had, then found out it would never materialize.  What a crazy world, and it is getting crazier all the time! 

[cj8121]

Hi all. I have been off the boards here because we are in orlando getting our daughter situated for school.  All is going pretty well.  I have kept my mouth and thoughts quiet going with the flow.  Its been difficult.  But tonight we were out to dinner getting ready to order food.  My BPDh couldn't decide what to eat.  He wanted pasta but also wanted ribs.  I wanted a steak.  He said" well get the steak with the ribs so I can have some ribs".  I don't like ribs but I said ok.  Then he wanted to share a salad and I said "well I want this kind of salad and it comes with my  meal".  He didn't like my choice so he said "fine I'll order my own".  Then when the waitress came she asked

How I wanted MY steak and he said "med rare".  I said "no i want it med". Then after the waitress left I said "whose meal is this for anyway".  Then while he was ordering his meal my daughter turns to me and says boy you can't even order your own meal I guess that goes with the title WIFE. I said not for long and that was all he heard. He is not speaking to me now.  I swear he is only like this with me I see him function just fine with other people.  I am truly beginning to think he just hates me. Anything I say or do is criticized. Thats my issue for tonite

I wanted to say thanks to everyone who has replied and given their thoughts on this. All I can say is it all makes me cry.

I have started to do my own things and he isn't happy.  He tells me I am very unpredictable and not liking who I am now. Oh well.

Thanks to everyone.

[sad but wiser]

You're always welcome.  My BPDexh always wanted things and people to be static and 2 dimensional.  It was difficult for him to have a relationship where anyone else had input.  I'm sorry he is upset.  That is too bad, isn't it?  Well, we all get upset at times.  That is part of life.

  You might check out obsessive compulsive personality disorder.  This is not the hand-washing ritual disorder.  My exH has both BPD and OCPD in spades!  It has helped me understand him to know what I'm dealing with.

[Allotrion]

CJ, I think the hardest part is realizing that you aren't going to have a "normal" relationship with this person.  You will have to "handle" your responses and reactions all the time.  It is a kind of controlled egg-shell walking.  It feels a bit fake and manipulative, like you are a therapist having a relationship with a client.  That doesn't feel like a husband/wife relationship and it really isn't - not the one you signed on for anyway. 

   This is a relationship where you have to take care of yourself and your own emotional needs and handle him as well.  That's it.  All the tactics and techniques are for your sanity.  The boundaries are for you, so that you survive and don't lose yourself.

Oh Sad But Wiser, you eloquently put into words what is going through my mind and heart at the moment.  I'm so tired... .  

This weekend was "not bad".  We went away to a local hotel with the kids so they could get a change of pace and use the pool.  My uBPDw and I didn't fight, we got along for the most part, we even managed to keep the peace even though she was bordering on lashing out because she doesn’t like to be contained in a hotel room for too long.  But what’s so depressing is that “not bad” is the best I could hope for at the moment.  I spend all of my waking hours, as you say, “handling” my responses and reactions.  It is tiring. 

I have also sensed a change in me since really diving into the BPD pool.    I don’t know if the big blow-out fight we had about a month ago changed my perception of her or if it was because I started educating myself on BPD but I don’t feel the same about our relationship.  I used to try my hardest to meet her every whim because I felt like I was {} this close to achieving a healthy relationship.  If I tried just a little harder to give her what she was asking for, then we’d be OK.  I thought that I was doing the right thing to keep the relationship together.  But it wasn’t enough.  She’s always on the brink of leaving.  “I have men who are just dying to give me affection, but I can’t even get it from you”. 

Now I see her in a different light.  If she complains about something, my mind automatically goes to “that’s the BPD talking”, just ignore it/deflect it/validate it.  Good grief… I wish I could get validated for what I do/have done.  But it’s just another day of putting on a happy face and evading the emotional spear thrusts. 

I don’t know how you fine folk manage to keep at it day in and day out.  I give you all a ton of credit.  Whether you choose to stay with your pwBPD or are lucky enough (and brave enough) to get out with part of your sanity intact, it feels like you’re pushing a rock up a hill every…single…day.

Sometimes I think it was easier when I didn’t know about BPD.  Because the carrot was right…there.  If I could just stretch a little more, I could make this relationship all better again.  Now that I see her for what she is, there is no more carrot.  Now I’m just the horse pulling the cart with no reward…  And it’s not a good place to be in right now.

Sorry to vent.  I’m just a bit overwhelmed at the moment.

[sad but wiser]

Allotrion - What would we do if we couldn't vent here?  This site is a big pressure release valve and support group rolled into one.  I am sorry to hear about your situation.  I really, really understand it. 

Your kids are an issue.  I didn't want to take mine from their father, or split up the home, so I stayed and stayed and kept on trying.  I knew nothing about BPD.  After the breakup - which finally happened during his raging at our kids, not me, I found out that he had been mistreating them behind my back.  The emotional manipulations have left them confused and insecure, so it is taking a lot of work to help them gain a more balanced perspective.  Some therapy for you would be very helpful, I think.

You need some help to handle all of this, you really do.  We are here also, vent away!

[Allotrion]

Thank you for your understanding SBW.  You are correct; the kids are an issue.  I don't know if I'm doing them a disservice by staying but I know that splitting up the home is pretty traumatic.  My dSD14 feels like her bio father left HER when she was in mom's womb.  I've tried explaining that bio father left MOM, not her, but the insecurity remains.  I think it would crush her if I left as well.  How's that for a heavy dose of GUILT?   :'(

On the other hand, I would love to provide my D8 with a stable, non-aggressive/violent home to grow up in.  Even if it means splitting up.  Then again, (and here comes more guilt) my own issues get in the way.  I lost my father when I was a kid and although I had a caring stepfather to raise me, it never replaced my lost dad.  I often wonder how my life would be different if he was around to raise me.  My whole family speaks about him in an almost angelic way, putting him on this mile-high pedestal.  It just makes the loss that much harder.  I didn't get an opportunity to be raised by him.

Wow, I have never "voiced" these feelings out to anyone.  Thank you all for being an anonymous sounding board.  I'm glad to have a place to share my feelings.

[byasliver]

I completely feel your pain and weariness. I had a dream last night that reflected it so well. I was driving down a dark road in a van with my kids and uBPDh. Every so often the road would suddenly be covered with hail stones and it took everything I had to keep from sliding off the road. But I just wanted to get my kids home safely. Once I finally reached my destination, there were people there all praising my uBPDh for the wonderful job he was doing and I was being ignored. BUT I DROVE THE VAN THROUGH ALL THAT ICE! I wanted to scream it but instead I was quietly reminding some of it... .   and then when they caught on, I was fussed at for trying to get attention, accused of being jealous of uBPDh and the attention he was getting.

I woke up realizing how much the dream was mirroring my life. I talked to one of my uBPDH's therapists yesterday and realized quite quickly that she has little, if any, real understanding of BPD. She just kept saying that she thinks my H is "a bit stressed." I finally gave in and agreed just to end the conversation. I should be hearing from his other therapist today... .   hoping it goes much better.

I wish I knew great encouraging words for you. Some way to give you some hope. I read the "Success Stories" sometimes to make myself feel better. Maybe they will help you? There are wonderful stories about BPD sufferers that seem to make it back to some form of "normality"... .   hoping we all get there someday! 

[sad but wiser]

Guilt, guilt, guilt!  We take it on too easily.  Regarding your "real" dad, Allotrion, he was probably a great guy, but he was human, count on it.  Your stepdad was a hero, too.  Anyone who takes the place of an "angel" and does the job well is also a good guy.  I wish I could choose men as well as your mom did!

byasliver - does your H complain about you always making an issue about YOU, even when it actually is about you?  Like, you aren't worth noticing... .  

[eviscerated]

Its a terrible sadness to watch someone you love needlessly denigrate and destroy every moving part of your life with them. Its so utterly pointless and heartbreaking... .   but exacts an incredible cost from the soul.

I love her. I can't save her... .   and its killing me. I don't know if I can even save myself.

[sad but wiser]

Dear eviscerated,

  Yes, the sadness and grief is a terrible thing.  It feels like you are torn apart - and you are.  Healing takes time.  Rest yourself, be kind to yourself.  The BPD is hardwired into the personality.  It was there before you knew her.  It is okay that you can't save her from herself.  That isn't your job, actually.  Being kind is your job.  It sounds as if you are doing your job incredibly well.

[Li Po mem]

So frustrating and sad.