#Me Too (Male Version)

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

It's not right that a man should have to suffer this much, and have this good of behavior, and be this strong, and this independent to even get a monochome of empathy and tolerance from the world. Everywhere I go to get help, 95% of it falls on deaf ears. This rock of a man that many women expect, it doesn't exist, just like the "ideal woman" that gave rise to the Feminist movement doesn't exist. And women, I am calling you out, because it's not all a man's fault. The criticism that a man should take responsibility for his emotions and be on better behavior, it hasn't caused me to be treated more fairly, if anything, it's less. Because the world is always ready to give a man the short end of the stick, to pander to women, so she can keep believing she's a victim, so she doesn't have to find her inner strength, which requires her to fall on her face over and over. If all women are victims and saints, then it flattens women, and lowers their potential. If a woman can't live by her sword and die by her sword, like a man can, then she'll never have the respect that a man has. Because this flattening takes away from the highest achieving, and most admirable women, the ones held in highest regard.

I feel a sense of sorrow for myself tonight, it feels deep, and I don't know how far it will go, and also a sense of anger, of outrage and conviction. I was born a needy, emotional boy, and honestly, my parents weren't equipped to deal with it. As I triversed the landscape of life at school and at home, the world was ready to tell me to "man up", no matter how much of a beating I took. Bullies at school? Man up, be better! Women at school? You're a joke of a man, as they'd recoil. I thought maybe I just needed to change, so I did and ended up with a BPD girl who sexually assaulted me, physically assaulted me, manipulated me, destroyed my house, and my life, and I was left a corpse of a man. I rose from the ashes to learn about self love, and worked hard at it, I busted my butt at it, in fact. I improved my behavior and connected to people, compared to most people, my behavior was top notch. Was this good enough? No. In fact, people took my kindness and vulnerability as opportunities to take advantage, to look down on me, to consider me more of a joke of a man. Like a man isn't entitled to those things, like any person should be.

I've seen woman after woman get rescued and defended, by groups of men, by groups of women, no matter how unfairly or fairly. Somehow people think this makes you more of a man, or more of a Feminist to somehow pander to them, no matter how much wrong they do, no matter how little responsibility they take for themselves, no matter how much they play the victim. People talked about believing women during #MeToo, what about believing men? What about giving each person a fair and honest shake, instead of immediately starting with a side?

So I kept defending myself and reading between the lines, and learning wisdom, and about codependency. I kept making myself a better person, think that's all I needed to do. But it's not true, because the issue isn't with me. It's the fact that Men don't really know how to help other men, because they haven't gotten it themselves. It's because most women look down on a man, for every imperfection, in one way or another. My friend killed himself partially because everyone told him to man up and his Mom scapegoated his Dad, and honestly my friend. But this isn't about my friend, or me saving everyone, or trying to get support, in a world without empathy and tools for me, or about being everything a man could need, because I am too tired from 8-9 layers of trauma, many by women, doing quite deplorable things, while I was on pretty damned good behavior, way above what most men and people would do, and honestly, most people don't even want to look at it, because then they'd have to own up to it, and feel inspired to stand up for a guy for once, or empathize, and they're too damned scared to face their own crap, or the social pressures to do that, it's easier to live in denial, it takes the pressure off.

There's some signs of hope at my new counseling office, with my new counselor seeming quite emotionally intelligent, a handful of women on the crisis line who seem supportive, and even a guy who does too. But this isn't about hope. This is about me, and the sorrow that I feel for myself, it's not pity, it's just this cold hard acceptance washing over me, through tears, and a conviction becoming stronger for it. I've suffered alone, and journaled, and prayed, while I've cried in the darkness, I've used my counselors, and support groups online and in person. I've been good to women, like REALLY good, and there's always some issue with me, some short coming that is intolerable to them. From not working, to having anxieties, a moment of neediness, of being too kind for them to believe, or an insecurity, that I god forbid need a little help with, even though I am literally the most masculine, strong, and confident man that I know. And this traverses all relationships, from the lady at the front counter of the counseling office, to the two women counselors who called me lazy, one of which yelled at me for feeling scared, because they didn't want to look into themselves, or the ones at the grocery counters, who judged me for having anxiety, and treated me poorly, or the many friendships I've had with women or the ones with more romantic or sexual possibilities, where I'd get abused on some level, and then no one would understand, and gaslight it away.

There's trigger warnings to coddle women, there's safe spaces, and honestly places which aren't safe spaces that women try to control into being their safe space, there's a whole tribe of people ready to defend their every action, these are grown ass women, capable of speaking up for them damned selves, there's battered women's shelters. I see the value in some of this, especially those shelters. What does a guy like me get? His bootstraps, and a bed to lie in, a journal to write in, and maybe a few kind words here or there from a person, before they tell me to buy more bootstraps and man the hell up. Give me a break. A man shouldn't have to have this insane of an ideal in a woman's mind, in acquaintanceships, sexually, romantically, and friendships. It's nonsense, it's disgusting and it's cruel, men can't be perfect, not to lift a woman up, so she avoids her own power, accountability, and responsibility. And honestly, I'm not going to try to be perfect. I'm going to lay in my bed, in my room filled with bootstraps, and cry if I feel like it, and look around to all my used up journals, which litter parts of my room, and the new ones I have ready at hand, and think of all the journals I've thrown in the garbage over the years, probably 200-300 of them, or more, and spend a bit of time with my pets, if I have it in me, and do my meditation, and be as lonely as ever, and accept it the best I can, so I can sleep tonight, and not waste this much energy on so many deaf ears.

[NarcsEverywhere]

It's not right that a man should have to suffer this much, and have this good of behavior, and be this strong, and this independent to even get a monochome of empathy and tolerance from the world. Everywhere I go to get help, 95% of it falls on deaf ears. This rock of a man that many women expect, it doesn't exist, just like the "ideal woman" that gave rise to the Feminist movement doesn't exist. And women, I am calling you out, because it's not all a man's fault. The criticism that a man should take responsibility for his emotions and be on better behavior, it hasn't caused me to be treated more fairly, if anything, it's less. Because the world is always ready to give a man the short end of the stick, to pander to women, so she can keep believing she's a victim, so she doesn't have to find her inner strength, which requires her to fall on her face over and over. If all women are victims and saints, then it flattens women, and lowers their potential. If a woman can't live by her sword and die by her sword, like a man can, then she'll never have the respect that a man has. Because this flattening takes away from the highest achieving, and most admirable women, the ones held in highest regard.

I feel a sense of sorrow for myself tonight, it feels deep, and I don't know how far it will go, and also a sense of anger, of outrage and conviction. I was born a needy, emotional boy, and honestly, my parents weren't equipped to deal with it. As I triversed the landscape of life at school and at home, the world was ready to tell me to "man up", no matter how much of a beating I took. Bullies at school? Man up, be better! Women at school? You're a joke of a man, as they'd recoil. I thought maybe I just needed to change, so I did and ended up with a BPD girl who sexually assaulted me, physically assaulted me, manipulated me, destroyed my house, and my life, and I was left a corpse of a man. I rose from the ashes to learn about self love, and worked hard at it, I busted my butt at it, in fact. I improved my behavior and connected to people, compared to most people, my behavior was top notch. Was this good enough? No. In fact, people took my kindness and vulnerability as opportunities to take advantage, to look down on me, to consider me more of a joke of a man. Like a man isn't entitled to those things, like any person should be.

I've seen woman after woman get rescued and defended, by groups of men, by groups of women, no matter how unfairly or fairly. Somehow people think this makes you more of a man, or more of a Feminist to somehow pander to them, no matter how much wrong they do, no matter how little responsibility they take for themselves, no matter how much they play the victim. People talked about believing women during #MeToo, what about believing men? What about giving each person a fair and honest shake, instead of immediately starting with a side?

So I kept defending myself and reading between the lines, and learning wisdom, and about codependency. I kept making myself a better person, think that's all I needed to do. But it's not true, because the issue isn't with me. It's the fact that Men don't really know how to help other men, because they haven't gotten it themselves. It's because most women look down on a man, for every imperfection, in one way or another. My friend killed himself partially because everyone told him to man up and his Mom scapegoated his Dad, and honestly my friend. But this isn't about my friend, or me saving everyone, or trying to get support, in a world without empathy and tools for me, or about being everything a man could need, because I am too tired from 8-9 layers of trauma, many by women, doing quite deplorable things, while I was on pretty damned good behavior, way above what most men and people would do, and honestly, most people don't even want to look at it, because then they'd have to own up to it, and feel inspired to stand up for a guy for once, or empathize, and they're too damned scared to face their own crap, or the social pressures to do that, it's easier to live in denial, it takes the pressure off.

There's some signs of hope at my new counseling office, with my new counselor seeming quite emotionally intelligent, a handful of women on the crisis line who seem supportive, and even a guy who does too. But this isn't about hope. This is about me, and the sorrow that I feel for myself, it's not pity, it's just this cold hard acceptance washing over me, through tears, and a conviction becoming stronger for it. I've suffered alone, and journaled, and prayed, while I've cried in the darkness, I've used my counselors, and support groups online and in person. I've been good to women, like REALLY good, and there's always some issue with me, some short coming that is intolerable to them. From not working, to having anxieties, a moment of neediness, of being too kind for them to believe, or an insecurity, that I god forbid need a little help with, even though I am literally the most masculine, strong, and confident man that I know. And this traverses all relationships, from the lady at the front counter of the counseling office, to the two women counselors who called me lazy, one of which yelled at me for feeling scared, because they didn't want to look into themselves, or the ones at the grocery counters, who judged me for having anxiety, and treated me poorly, or the many friendships I've had with women or the ones with more romantic or sexual possibilities, where I'd get abused on some level, and then no one would understand, and gaslight it away.

There's trigger warnings to coddle women, there's safe spaces, and honestly places which aren't safe spaces that women try to control into being their safe space, there's a whole tribe of people ready to defend their every action, these are grown ass women, capable of speaking up for them damned selves, there's battered women's shelters. I see the value in some of this, especially those shelters. What does a guy like me get? His bootstraps, and a bed to lie in, a journal to write in, and maybe a few kind words here or there from a person, before they tell me to buy more bootstraps and man the hell up. Give me a break. A man shouldn't have to have this insane of an ideal in a woman's mind, in acquaintanceships, sexually, romantically, and friendships. It's nonsense, it's disgusting and it's cruel, men can't be perfect, not to lift a woman up, so she avoids her own power, accountability, and responsibility. And honestly, I'm not going to try to be perfect. I'm going to lay in my bed, in my room filled with bootstraps, and cry if I feel like it, and look around to all my used up journals, which litter parts of my room, and the new ones I have ready at hand, and think of all the journals I've thrown in the garbage over the years, probably 200-300 of them, or more, and spend a bit of time with my pets, if I have it in me, and do my meditation, and be as lonely as ever, and accept it the best I can, so I can sleep tonight, and not waste this much energy on so many deaf ears.

[PearlsBefore]

The lack of male-specific resources for victims of domestic violence is staggering; there is one now open and running in Toronto, but again it can only hold perhaps ~6 men with ~6 children total...but at least it's a start. Some cities have similar - but again it's typically around 1% of the resources that are available for women - meaning men are statistically under-served.

If you're able to support such initiatives, not even by money but by supportive emails and donating linens or children's books or men's self-help books on exiting co-dependency or Dr. Laura or paths out of depression, definitely consider doing so! Ask if they accept holiday toy shoeboxes, and if they say they don't have such a program yet - volunteer to arrange it. Typically they need your effort and encouragement, more than your $40.

[Outdorenthusiast]

I hear you.     Men have feelings too, and they are important and valuable, and yes - under appreciated.  Yours are important too.

[capecodling]

Yeah its kind of ridiculous how unbalanced things have become.  Men are supposed to do everything under the sun to undo the patriarchy except when we talk about our feelings everyone (men and women too) get uncomfortable and don’t know how to take it in.  One of the most absurd double-standards ever and ultimately doesn’t serve any of the modern so-called “progressive” women’s movements either.

[jaded7]

It's not right that a man should have to suffer this much, and have this good of behavior, and be this strong, and this independent to even get a monochome of empathy and tolerance from the world. Everywhere I go to get help, 95% of it falls on deaf ears. This rock of a man that many women expect, it doesn't exist, just like the "ideal woman" that gave rise to the Feminist movement doesn't exist. And women, I am calling you out, because it's not all a man's fault. The criticism that a man should take responsibility for his emotions and be on better behavior, it hasn't caused me to be treated more fairly, if anything, it's less. Because the world is always ready to give a man the short end of the stick, to pander to women, so she can keep believing she's a victim, so she doesn't have to find her inner strength, which requires her to fall on her face over and over. If all women are victims and saints, then it flattens women, and lowers their potential. If a woman can't live by her sword and die by her sword, like a man can, then she'll never have the respect that a man has. Because this flattening takes away from the highest achieving, and most admirable women, the ones held in highest regard.

I feel a sense of sorrow for myself tonight, it feels deep, and I don't know how far it will go, and also a sense of anger, of outrage and conviction. I was born a needy, emotional boy, and honestly, my parents weren't equipped to deal with it. As I triversed the landscape of life at school and at home, the world was ready to tell me to "man up", no matter how much of a beating I took. Bullies at school? Man up, be better! Women at school? You're a joke of a man, as they'd recoil. I thought maybe I just needed to change, so I did and ended up with a BPD girl who sexually assaulted me, physically assaulted me, manipulated me, destroyed my house, and my life, and I was left a corpse of a man. I rose from the ashes to learn about self love, and worked hard at it, I busted my butt at it, in fact. I improved my behavior and connected to people, compared to most people, my behavior was top notch. Was this good enough? No. In fact, people took my kindness and vulnerability as opportunities to take advantage, to look down on me, to consider me more of a joke of a man. Like a man isn't entitled to those things, like any person should be.

I've seen woman after woman get rescued and defended, by groups of men, by groups of women, no matter how unfairly or fairly. Somehow people think this makes you more of a man, or more of a Feminist to somehow pander to them, no matter how much wrong they do, no matter how little responsibility they take for themselves, no matter how much they play the victim. People talked about believing women during #MeToo, what about believing men? What about giving each person a fair and honest shake, instead of immediately starting with a side?

So I kept defending myself and reading between the lines, and learning wisdom, and about codependency. I kept making myself a better person, think that's all I needed to do. But it's not true, because the issue isn't with me. It's the fact that Men don't really know how to help other men, because they haven't gotten it themselves. It's because most women look down on a man, for every imperfection, in one way or another. My friend killed himself partially because everyone told him to man up and his Mom scapegoated his Dad, and honestly my friend. But this isn't about my friend, or me saving everyone, or trying to get support, in a world without empathy and tools for me, or about being everything a man could need, because I am too tired from 8-9 layers of trauma, many by women, doing quite deplorable things, while I was on pretty damned good behavior, way above what most men and people would do, and honestly, most people don't even want to look at it, because then they'd have to own up to it, and feel inspired to stand up for a guy for once, or empathize, and they're too damned scared to face their own crap, or the social pressures to do that, it's easier to live in denial, it takes the pressure off.

There's some signs of hope at my new counseling office, with my new counselor seeming quite emotionally intelligent, a handful of women on the crisis line who seem supportive, and even a guy who does too. But this isn't about hope. This is about me, and the sorrow that I feel for myself, it's not pity, it's just this cold hard acceptance washing over me, through tears, and a conviction becoming stronger for it. I've suffered alone, and journaled, and prayed, while I've cried in the darkness, I've used my counselors, and support groups online and in person. I've been good to women, like REALLY good, and there's always some issue with me, some short coming that is intolerable to them. From not working, to having anxieties, a moment of neediness, of being too kind for them to believe, or an insecurity, that I god forbid need a little help with, even though I am literally the most masculine, strong, and confident man that I know. And this traverses all relationships, from the lady at the front counter of the counseling office, to the two women counselors who called me lazy, one of which yelled at me for feeling scared, because they didn't want to look into themselves, or the ones at the grocery counters, who judged me for having anxiety, and treated me poorly, or the many friendships I've had with women or the ones with more romantic or sexual possibilities, where I'd get abused on some level, and then no one would understand, and gaslight it away.

There's trigger warnings to coddle women, there's safe spaces, and honestly places which aren't safe spaces that women try to control into being their safe space, there's a whole tribe of people ready to defend their every action, these are grown ass women, capable of speaking up for them damned selves, there's battered women's shelters. I see the value in some of this, especially those shelters. What does a guy like me get? His bootstraps, and a bed to lie in, a journal to write in, and maybe a few kind words here or there from a person, before they tell me to buy more bootstraps and man the hell up. Give me a break. A man shouldn't have to have this insane of an ideal in a woman's mind, in acquaintanceships, sexually, romantically, and friendships. It's nonsense, it's disgusting and it's cruel, men can't be perfect, not to lift a woman up, so she avoids her own power, accountability, and responsibility. And honestly, I'm not going to try to be perfect. I'm going to lay in my bed, in my room filled with bootstraps, and cry if I feel like it, and look around to all my used up journals, which litter parts of my room, and the new ones I have ready at hand, and think of all the journals I've thrown in the garbage over the years, probably 200-300 of them, or more, and spend a bit of time with my pets, if I have it in me, and do my meditation, and be as lonely as ever, and accept it the best I can, so I can sleep tonight, and not waste this much energy on so many deaf ears.

I hear you Narcs, I really do. I'm a man- I'm really strong, muscular, tall, an athlete my whole life. I have a Ph.D., I've been a college professor at very highly selective colleges. I'm confident...most of the time.

I'm also an adult who was sexually abused as a child several times, who was raped in graduate school (entirely possible...I came home at 2am, a woman was waiting at the door for me, I asked her to leave, she wouldn't, I went to bed and passed out to wake later to her assaulting me), and who has been verbally abused and belittled and put down by my CPTSD/borderline partner.

And it has been extremely painful. I get where you are coming from, wondering why there is not more support for men. But there is...here and other places.

I support women, and I support women-specific healing centers and authors and shelters. Women have been put down and objectified for so long, and I'm glad they have the support. It's not a zero-sum game.

We need men to be more in touch with their feelings, you can be that model.

[PearlsBefore]

I get where you are coming from, wondering why there is not more support for men. But there is...here and other places. I support women, and I support women-specific healing centers and authors and shelters. Women have been put down and objectified for so long, and I'm glad they have the support. It's not a zero-sum game.

We need men to be more in touch with their feelings, you can be that model.

I respectfully disagree; the problem I see is that when complaining there's institutional discrimination and a lack of actual material support aimed towards helping male victims of domestic violence...we're advised to be more in touch with our feelings. We need more focus on the actual material supports, in my estimation.

[Outdorenthusiast]

I respectfully disagree; the problem I see is that when complaining there's institutional discrimination and a lack of actual material support aimed towards helping male victims of domestic violence...we're advised to be more in touch with our feelings. We need more focus on the actual material supports, in my estimation.

Honestly - agreed.  When I looked for support - all it was is battered women’s shelters.  Free counseling help for women, free legal advice for women, free shelter for women.  Honestly the fee vs pay wasn’t the issue - it was the obvious dessert of help and resources for emotionally, verbally, and financially abused men.  Also the innate stigma of “a man should be able to take care of himself.”  I am not a weak person professionally- I am respected, a leader, and manage and decide billions of dollars daily.  However I had an emotionally manipulative mother, and fell into an emotionally manipulative marriage.

[jaded7]

Honestly - agreed.  When I looked for support - all it was is battered women’s shelters.  Free counseling help for women, free legal advice for women, free shelter for women.  Honestly the fee vs pay wasn’t the issue - it was the obvious dessert of help and resources for emotionally, verbally, and financially abused men.  Also the innate stigma of “a man should be able to take care of himself.”  I am not a weak person professionally- I am respected, a leader, and manage and decide billions of dollars daily.  However I had an emotionally manipulative mother, and fell into an emotionally manipulative marriage.

I can see where you and Pearl are coming from. No doubt, there is a massive discrepancy in the support. And social stigma, for sure.

Have either of you ever heard of Shrink For Men? Google that. It's a woman therapist who specializes in helping men who are in a relationship, or recovering from a relationship, with a  cluster b woman- BPD and narcissism. She has a discussion board going back many years, a big community of men who support each other (and women who support them), and a huge numbers of videos and blogs.

Mod note: Shrink 4 Men: Online Reputation, Independent Review
Mod note: Critical Review: Shrink 4 Men

[Riv3rW0lf]

Playing Devil's advocate here...

I did a quick google research and most if not all women shelters were founded and are managed by women. Which means women thought the cause important enough for them to ask for funds, and open those shelters... As in almost any social and community fields, I expect they don't necessarily make a lot of money.

There is indeed a big disparity in services offered for men victim of abuse. I saw my father abused severely by my mother, and later on by one of his girlfriend who clearly was a sociopath, she was much more off and dangerous than a borderline, that was always quite clear to me, so I do understand where you guys are coming from...

So...why are men not opening more shelters for men?

We do have culture biases, but I do think it important to remember that BOTH women AND men suffer from those. And I fail to see how calling out women as a whole, or overgeneralizing women with PDs to all of women is helpful. I'd like to remind everyone here to be careful not to slip into a misogynistic mindset... A few of the sentences of the initial post were slippery, in my opinion.

It reminds me of a comedian I watched recently...he was talking about how feminists will b*tch about how women in sports are less recognized than men in sports, but then won't pay to actually assist to women baseball, football and the likes... How are men responsible to save women sport? They are already watching men sport... Well... If women won't open men shelter, maybe some men will need to step up and open those shelters.

Now, of course, if the actual issue is related to government refusing to fund those shelters, then it absolutely is a big societal mistake, and unacceptable. But if it's a matter of gender interest, and that women are generally more inclined to open those kind of shelters, and they prioritise women because this is what they know...then, it really isn't the women's fault that there aren't more shelters for men, even though it indeed seems unfair.

I actually come from a culture where women are expected to not cry, and not be too emotional. Women here work a lot, and have been working a lot through our history. They were treated like s*it though, seldom could decide the future of their family, for better or worst, you'd hope your husband would be decent enough to care for females, and not like my grandfather who disowned all of them, and gave everything to his sons, living the daughters to fend for themselves (two of them, my mother included, developped BPD because of this as*hole, who never stopped his own brother from raping all of them.)... Most of my friends don't cry, don't show emotions, go through terrible challenges on their own. Sure, there are societal expectations, but then there also is the expectation one puts on oneself. My H is also deeply unnerved when I get emotional, even though I am a women... Overgeneralization simply does not help : there are unsafe people, women AND men, and who we associate with is our choice, often comes from the trauma we cary, and ultimately our responsibility.

It does sadden me to witness there aren't as much help given to men than there is to women, but again, it helps to look at who is offering that help. I will retract myself if it is a funding issue from government though.

Note I personally never condoned the #MeToo movement. One cannot fight fire against fire. Most men of my generation are incredibly kind, and they always treated me with respect, even though I am a "woman working in a men world". The misogyny often came from older generations... I think education did a lot more for gender equality than #MeToo and other similar movements of social justice.

[Notwendy]

I witnessed my father being abused by my BPD mother. I know that female abuse of males is real and would be supportive of initiatives to assist men in this situation.

I think our views on what is abuse are narrow. I think we mostly recognize abuse when someone physically or sexually assaults someone and causes physical evidence.  My mother didn't physically beat up my father but I think she was able to hurt him in different ways- emotionally, verbally, financially and the stress of the relationship may have had a physical impact on him.  I have empathy for anyone who is in this kind of situation.

Statistically, women are subjected to domestic abuse more than men are, but this may also reflect the bias of our culture and under reporting by men. Due to the general difference in size and strength, we assume men have the advantage but this is only in one specific example of abuse. My BPD mother has barely weighed 100 lbs during most of her marriage.

I think there are many kinds of abuse and that putting them in the same category may lead us to not "see" some forms of abuse. The idea is that a larger person (generally a male) over powers a smaller person ( generally a female), a one time random attack, or the result of people drinking too much at a party and losing judgment- that is recognized. Abuse in relationships is not as often as recognizable, and it affects a whole family not just one sex. It's also a lot more complicated and difficult to have an impact on. We have a DV shelter that accepts donations of clothing and household items and the people who work there have said that not all of their clients stay away from their abusive spouse- many return but they try to help all of them as one can't predict who will respond to the help. 

I don't think we can rely on politicians to take up abuse of males as a platform. I think support will come from the community. The supports in my area tend to be volunteer run and community funded- and I think this initiative will come from people speaking up and also taking action. The AA program was founded by men, for men, and now it's expanded to all kinds of groups. Regardless of who started the women's shelters- that can be expanded too. Yes this takes funding but the local programs to help people here are run by volunteers and donations from the community as well, even if they did have some public funding.

Having a voice here is also helpful so other people in this situation don't feel they are alone.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Wendy, thanks for your response, your direct, no non sense attitude is starting to grow on me, and reminds me of myself honestly, maybe that’s why you irritated me before, ha!

I dunno, I do think some of it is biases of the physical differences between men and women but really I think it’s so much more complicated. Women can care so much about their position socially and their identity sexually, that they will dehumanize and reject a guys suffering and short comings to keep those things in tact. A good example of this is if any guy brings up any shortcomings or weaknesses on a sex site, it tends to repulse women, and they can’t separate a man sexually vs his humanity, like women expect men to do, especially since #MeToo. I am glad for that progress, but I think it needs to happen for men too.

I do think not all people are the same and some of it is like you said, but some of it is a broken Feminist agenda (there’s plenty of Feminsts with a misogyny kink, that says a lot right there, ha!) maybe TMI for these boards, but I’m too tired to not be a bit risky at breaking the rules anymore. Men are pandering to it like crazy out of fear, and sexual desire. I think ultimately it’s broken for men and women, as we’re both stuck in prisons, men emotionally deprived, and women disempowered and conflicted.

Thanks for recognizing women abusing men, I think you know, my biggest pains are the most personal ones, where the women have gone so low for popularities sake, or to preserve or grow social status, and used the most personal, heartfelt deep stuff to devalue and degrade me, like my friends suicide, my traumas, my heartfelt poems, one girl even used my personal sexual fantasy for her, just to devalue me and get popularity and attention, those hit so deep. I’m almost impressed at how cruel some women can be, if I wasn’t wise, it might cause me to hate women. Women are masters at psychological abuse, glad I am becoming wiser to it. I know to watch for the unique snowflakes, the overly sexual, overly motherly types. I wish more women were willing to give a bit of Motherlyness to a guy, it’s so rare, yet women often seem to expect men to be Fatherly.

Also, I do think a lot of it is hidden, but sometimes it’s not, sometimes it’s plain as day that a woman is getting away with murder, and until other women find the courage to hold other women accountable, and not to stick so hard to their tribe, I don’t see this changing.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Jaded7, thanks for sharing your story, yeah the childhood stuff affects you subconsciously more, and it's hard to put your finger on how it affects you really, sorry that happened to you. I’m sorry you’ve been put through the ringer too, by women, sexual abuse by women hurts pretty bad, even though it’s not as violent, it can be more psychological, which can sometimes mess you up even more.

I do try to set an example, but it’s a lonely thing to always be an example, or to put yourself out there so much and get little back, the vulnerability hangovers can get quite terrible always doing that. And it ends up turning into self sabotage and oversharing, and it’s so hard to not obsess about it and live life if I do that.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey outdoorenthusia, PearlIsBefore, and capecodling. Thanks for acknowledging the discrepancy and that mens feelings matter too. It sure doesn’t feel like it. It’s confusing for me to get help, sometimes I don’t know what I need. What it feels like I need is a woman to acknowledge my pain, and even logic of it, so I feel less gaslit and walk through it a bit, so there is less loneliness, but trying for that has just got me hurt. They switched counselors on me at the last minute to the intake lady. She seems smart but confused, I feel good about her though, hope she doesn’t quit on me so quick, like the rest.

I think my biggest obstacles to get help are actually my actualization, as it can cause people to feel small, but I can’t hide it and not be me, at the end of the day, I just want to be treated like a person like anyone else, even if I can get cocky as hell sometimes, and the changes I am going through that are rapid and confuse people. I want to slow walk as much as I can, these awesome things I write on here are cathartic and are born of moments of clarity, but they hit me hard for days on end and I wish I had less of them, and more practical, very human things to do and say.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Riv3rW0lf, I still dunno if I want you on this thread at all, as I feel very hurt by you, and don't really trust you, and it would take great strides, and good explanations and apologies to change my view on that.

But I will entertain things here and respond to you. So, I think the overgeneralization was fine, as it was intended to make a point, if anyone has seen my posts, they know if anything, I know nuance. If you take that personally, I actually think that's your own issue. Also, I'm tired of giving this balanced view all the time, sometimes fine, but if I constantly do it, it kind of depersonalizes my experience. I feel like this post wasn't meant to denigrate women at all, most men would have said far harsher things. What it was intended to do is hold women accountable and give a man's side. Holding women accountable empowers women. Also, I even held men accountable for constantly swooping in for women...

I obviously agree that men having men's shelters is good, and men need to take more responsibility for men, I personally don't even want a damned shelter, it's actually online help that I want now, and eventually more in person help. But I've shared my story plenty of places, a lot of times I hear whistles, this indicates that people just can't connect, don't have bandwidth for it, or can't believe it, and it becomes a pointless exercise for me. The reason I kind of blame women is I feel women tend to withhold their Motherlyness from a man, but expect the opposite from a man, as this plays more into sexual dynamics, and social pressures. It often pisses me off when even women I barely know act like you're a reject for having vulnerabilities, like somehow it affects them hardly at all, no, they're just have a denigrating view of men. Until men can feel comfortable around women feeling more feelings, sharing more vulnerabilities, then men aren't going to be emotionally healthy enough to even want to open these shelters. They're on emotional islands, and it's honestly miserable in a lot of ways. Which also will cause them to be cold, selfish and cruel. Emotional health is a two way street here, men are deprived.

Men can't wait until they are 100% emotionally healthy to share either, if a woman can't see the most vulnerable things in a man, because of her own issues, than it'll never work. But yeah, men have to have the courage to be vulnerable with themselves first really.

Obviously both genders can get abused, this post wasn't about that. There's nothing wrong with that. This is not a demonizing post by any means, if anything it sounded empowering to women and understanding with men, two things that both genders are often deprived of.

As for people being unique and not being a monolith, I totally agree. But you can't talk about common problems without kind of generalizing a bit. Was it a bit edgy? Yes, it's kind of how I roll, and it's served me well. But maybe the mods think I went too far? Who knows, I never know for sure without feedback from them, so I'll just keep guessing.

I'm a bit hesitant, but if you want to discuss our personal issues sometime, you can send me a message, but if you can't do it in good faith, then it won't work out. I'm honestly doubtful we can work it out, as the whole thing with you feels like another trauma.

[once removed]

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[Riv3rW0lf]

Narcs, I see you don't want me on this thread, but I do think it an important subject, and one that I'd like to comment another time on. Not to be disrespectful, but because I did nothing wrong and this is an important subject to me, as it draws back to my own feminity, one that I had a very hard time accepting.

It took me thirty years to finally come to terms with the fact that I was a women, and I aim to honor the title now. I am against generalization and if anything, I believe men and women have only survived because, mostly, we worked as a team through history, embracing each other's differences and finding solace in them as well.  

Regardless of who started the women's shelters- that can be expanded too.

Wrong formatting, can't fix it, sorry about that.

Except it cannot be expanded. Not always. Because men and women cannot always mix together. For battered women, it is often preferable to offer an area for women only.

And for men, is it often preferable to offer an area for men only.

There is nothing worst than women using feminism to get into circle of men. Men should have a right to have private groups of men to talk and vent. And the same is true for women.

Plus, let's be honest, the line between flirtation and friendship can get blurry between men and women...and so it makes sense to have shelters for women only, and shelters for men only. And so, statistically speaking, just because of biological interest, there is bound to be more shelters for women than men.

Because of the mother I had, I was, for a very long time, misogynistic. Hated women, hated the fact I was one. I saw myself as crazy, emotional, manipulative, I felt dangerous, I hated it. Women felt dangerous to me. But I am none of those things. And I know plenty of women who are great, just as I know plenty of men who are safe.

To me, generalization doesn't help healing, what helps is turning the camera inward, changing the focus, and looking at people as individuals... Which is, by the way, what the wokists refuse to do, what all extremists refuse to do. And in the end, the ultimate irony is that they are all just talking about themselves.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Okay Riv3rW0lf, I do think you did nothing wrong in this thread, and I’ll bury this hatchet myself, you’re free to stay and discuss. I agree that it’s good to embrace your gender, took me years to do the same, mostly from hard work internally. It was insanely complicated for me, that’s probably why I think I could write a book about sexual health someday. I think it’s kind of both embracing the differences, but also realizing people are still people, with similar feelings. It’s easy to get lost in the genders and forget that.