Trying to reach her

[Allranuthin]

Hello all,

Haven't posted for awhile.  Have been trying not to ruminate about exBPD.   As I am sure everyone can relate, there are good days and awful days.   I have had several months to read and learn on this site.  There is no doubt in my mind that I want her back.  We were together almost 8 years and have a genuine connection despite her BPD behaviors and CPTSD.  She left, moved out, during a trigger in turbulent circumstances in late Jan.   Just weeks after asking me to marry her.  I asked that we wait until we get some counseling and "get some tools" to help us better navigate some of our highly emotional and hurtful engagements (her triggers and my invalidation of them).  She agreed and we were going to start counseling.  Then the breakup happened.  It is my belief that a significant reason was that an ex of here's that she had NC with for years suddenly surfaced into the scene.  She had NC because the ex truly was toxic and also mentally ill.  Just before we broke up, her ex guilted her into spending time together and "getting closure" in their failed relationship before my ex met me.  The next thing I know,  they both painted me black and she left and moved in with the ex.  I know for a fact there is NO ROMANTIC connection or possibility for them to have a couple relationship.  This has been affirmed by many people in contact with them.

My thinking is this and I would like to know what you all think. While we were still together,  My ex was overwhelmed with her ex popping up again.  So many emotions she couldn't regulate.   I had firm boundaries with her  ex because for years the ex constantly intruded on and disrespected our relationship.   My ex finally saw this and 3 years ago cut her out of our lives-blocked on cell phone and social media etc.  My ex has a very difficult time handling guilt, it is the tool everyone she knows (especially her ex and family of origin) uses to get her to "perform".  So her ex... .planted seeds of doubt in my ex that I was controlling and disallowing them to be friends (totally discounting all her intrusive attempts to cause problems when we were happily together.   My ex is so easily influenced by others that she left reality and logic by the wayside and jumped in the boat with her ex.   All that being said, I can only think that my ex will again see that the grass is not greener over there.  She left that person for a reason, and together in our relationship we had everything and then some that always lacked in her relationship with her ex (her ex actually repulsed her but she "couldn't get away" because she threatened to ruin my ex's career if she left (this is a fact).   

So now, months later, I can only imagine the dust is settling in my ex's new living arrangement and things have to be becoming clear as she has ended up in the place she desperately hated to be before with a "manipulator" (another fact) again.  In these months my ex reached out by email once about a month ago and said she is heartbroken, all she ever wanted was to be loved by me but she gave up everything (the friendship with the ex) to be with me and she can't live like that anymore.  I responded and simply said when she is ready to talk, I am here.   

Last Tuesday, I got an email from my ex's mother (probably UBPD too,  and the reason my ex has been diagnosed with complex PTSD- pervasive childhood abuse and malignant enmeshment that still causes problems in my ex's adult life and relationships, ours included).  My ex's mother was actually initially pleased by the breakup because I helped my ex through the years with healthy boundaries with the FOO, and Mama didn't like that much.  At any rate her mother reached out the other day and offered some pleasantries and offered a rather genuine apology to me for how things are between her daughter and I right now... .she said she feels really bad about the breakup and she offered "my daughter really loves you still." I sat on the email for a couple days then replied and thanked her for the apology and for letting me know my ex still loves me.  I told her that I agreed that what has transpired is truly tragic but it doesn't have to be this way.

This email of course has sent me all over the place thinking about things.  Why would her mother reach out to tell me that?  My ex and I have had no contact since the blow up the day she left what so ever, except a couple emails early on just to get her her property.  I decided that it must have transpired by my ex talking to her about things, recently.  So against the advice I mostly see on these boards-I reached out to my ex again.  I figured what do I have to lose and it seemed like an opportunity.   In my email I assured my ex that I understand why things happened, why she had to erase me from her life (blocked from cell, social media, etc). Why she had to hate me to stop our negative emotional cycle (her triggers my lack of understanding them-I DID NOT say that though) so we could find ourselves again.  I told her I agreed that our relationship had gone astray and we were dancing a dance that wasn't working.  While I told her I still love her, and her mom told me she still loves me--I did not mention getting back together--only referenced things don't need to be how they are right now, that we can stop some of the pain and ease the unsettled feelings by communication when she is ready.  I also said that I know she is afraid of all the emotions that would be present or be unleashed when we see each other again, but I understand and promised her she would only be met with compassion and understanding that she will find comforting. I said I will not contact her anymore, and that I am in an ok place and will wait until she is ready.

I would appreciate hearing what  you all think about: the situation of the rash decision to run to the ex, the painting me black in the face of that (she always throughout our relationship--except during triggers when I was the enemy--- told me she loved me deeply because  I was strong, stable, understanding of how messed up she is, and she needed me and wanted to marry me and spend her life loving and being loved by me--then this!), her mother reaching out by email, and lastly my breaking NC and saying what I said.  Thanks,  I look forward to your views.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Policy pets]

I'm very new so I'm afraid I can't offer much advice, but I will say Reading your post helped me if only to see someone else who can't stop torturing themselves (I mean this playfully). The hardest thing I have ever wrestled with is the indecision between forgiveness/reconciliation and self-respect. People with BPD are rarely bad people, and more often than not the same traits that make them so loving and attractive are the same that support their pathology.

I am sorry she has put you through so much, it sounds like a really difficult situation.

The question I often ask myself is if I can truly be honest with myself about any legitimate evidence that the SO is willing to address the most toxic aspects of their disorder. You unfortunately can't know that without contact, and as we know, contact can be the worst idea in many occasions. Maybe start by asking yourself if you can go into an attempt at reconciliation with full preparation for a repetition of past toxicity. If you know you are strong and stable enough, and the value of a future together outweighs potential emotional fallout, then perhaps it is worth it.

Again, I am very new, and this is just one guys opinion who has had similar experiences, and a passing academic knowledge of personality disorders. So, grain of salt.

[Allranuthin]

I forgot to add, I sent the email to my ex Friday night, told her I didn't expect her to answer the "door" just because I "knocked" out of the blue, but I needed her to know, I understand why things went down the way they did, no one is to blame, we were both innocent hearts in a lot of pain, and she doesn't need to be afraid to contact me when she is ready.  I have not heard from her, but it has been two days.

[Allranuthin]

Thanks for your reply, Policy Pets.  Taken with more than a grain of salt

You are so correct in your assessment that the traits that attract and are so endearing DO support the pathology!   She is emotional!, loving, passionate, driven, intelligent... .and those things can climax to emotionally out of control, obsessive, controlling, illogical and off the charts! 

I have been in this for 8 years, and I am prepared and strong enough... .yes, what we share is worth the struggle... .while I get dinged up from time time to... .I am able to separate and not take a whole lot personally... .however sometimes it is so pervasive and pinpointed at me I do take a blow but none of this has damaged my self appreciation and regard.  With my ex... .she is very very self aware... .aware of her issues, her inability to regulate and manage emotions... .she is very open and honest about her behavior and understands it's impact on me... .except when she is triggered... .triggers usually lasted a few hours to a day or two.   The during last explosion in Jan, her old ex was there in the mix and suggested she pack the car and leave me!  In her irrational state she did!  She made a HUGE bad decision in an emotional upheaval that can't be simply rectified.   Kind of, well I did it and I can't turn back now.   She knows it was irrational and uncalled for hurtful to both of us.  She had to paint me black to justify her leaving.  However, when she does hurt me... .she feels self-loathing, guilt and shame.  I would imagine those feelings are also weighing upon on her at this moment. 

[Grey Kitty]

Hi Allranuthin,

I've got a couple thoughts for you. One is that your latest email (as you describe it) has excellent intentions behind it, but might not have been received as well as you hoped.

We're here for you, and can help with that kind of thing in the future. Next time you are planning to send her an email or get one from her that you want to respond to, post a draft here and ask for suggestions/comments about it.

My other thought is that her current situation living with her other ex is going to get in the way of any reasonable reconciliation.

If she is re-connecting in a romantic way, she's probably going to paint her old ex white and paint you black while she does it. I know you say that this isn't happening. I believe that even if it does happen, it won't last. But if it is happening, you aren't going to have any traction here.

If she isn't reconnecting in a romantic way, the situation is probably stressful and difficult for her given the strained relationship she has with her ex, especially if the ex wants to win your ex back. ... .Your ex doesn't handle this kind of stress well, and adding it to what she has to do to reconcile with you may be too much to ask of her.

... .Fortunately, the word you've heard is that this living situation is supposed to be temporary. I think your best move is to wait it out without pushing for too much from her during this time. (And I know it has to be hard!)

[Allranuthin]

Hello Grey Kitty,

I am interested in knowing your thoughts about the email I sent to her... not working in my favor.   I paraphrased what I said to her in that post.  I was very gentle and validating... .yet trying to convey as ugly as things were... .I understand why they happened the way they did.  I know she is feeling a great deal of guilt and shame for how she went about things, so I tried to soothe those feelings by letting her know I understand why.    I took responsibility for my role... .for me getting caught up in my own emotional cycle to the point where I had difficulty listening and respecting her feelings because I was caught in my own perception.  In sum, I tried to ease the tension and fear of her reaching out because she probably thinks I wouldn't forgive her.  I emphasized no one is to blame... .neither one of us knew how to stop the train... .

I am feeling rather ill thinking I damaged any possibility of her contacting me... .

[Allranuthin]

Also... .

There is no romantic reconnection between my ex and her ex.   There actually never was one-even when they were "together" it was one sided on her ex's part and everyone who knew them attests to that.  The last time I spoke to my ex's father he said there is no way that will ever happen, she just needed a place to stay and that is all it is.  My ex and her father are close and he would be up front with me.

[Grey Kitty]

You asked about how your email might have worked against reconciliation... .I'm going to comment on the sections I bolded... .

In my email I assured my ex that I understand why things happened, why she had to erase me from her life (blocked from cell, social media, etc). Why she had to hate me to stop our negative emotional cycle (her triggers my lack of understanding them-I DID NOT say that though) so we could find ourselves again.  I told her I agreed that our relationship had gone astray and we were dancing a dance that wasn't working.  While I told her I still love her, and her mom told me she still loves me--I did not mention getting back together--only referenced things don't need to be how they are right now, that we can stop some of the pain and ease the unsettled feelings by communication when she is ready.  I also said that I know she is afraid of all the emotions that would be present or be unleashed when we see each other again, but I understand and promised her she would only be met with compassion and understanding that she will find comforting. I said I will not contact her anymore, and that I am in an ok place and will wait until she is ready.

All of these things are cases where you are stating that you understand what drove her negative behavior. It is always dangerous to tell somebody what they are thinking or feeling.

It is incredibly invalidating if you got it wrong, and that wasn't why she did those things.

Or if you did get it right... .but she isn't self-aware enough to understand why she did those things... .she will feel you got it wrong, and be invalidated.

And with a pwBPD, she might well have re-written history to believe she didn't even do all these things, so telling her this would be invalidating in that case too.

My general thought is that people who are too upset to even talk with you aren't very likely to respond well to you pouring your heart out to them. While it might be the right thing to say, there is a good chance it was the wrong time... .and since you aren't in communications with her, you don't have any idea how she's feeling when she reads it.

I emphasized no one is to blame... .neither one of us knew how to stop the train... .

That may be true. May be generous on your part. And may still be invalidating to her--if she believes it was all your fault, then she's going to find this statement invalidating.

I am feeling rather ill thinking I damaged any possibility of her contacting me... .

Really, I doubt you made things much worse. I'm also not convinced you actually made them better either though.

[Allranuthin]

Thanks for your candor, grey Kitty.

I guess my timing of sending her an email was due to the fact that her mother reached out and told me she still loves me the other day... .out of the blue, so I figured the topic of our relationship and the fact that she still has positive feelings for me came up among them recently.   My ex is very self aware--does public speaking on the topic of emotions... .knows she has extreme difficulty managing hers and uses her own plight as a talking point in her presentations.   She prefers to stick with her diagnosis of CPTSD but the behaviors fit with everything here on this site.  She has always been very up front about how she is extremely emotionally dysregulated and we would speak openly about how it impacts our relationship.  She of course is unable to discern and think logically and understand she was dysregulated when she actually was going through a trigger... .but triggers are usually short lived-but once things calmed down she would thank me for understanding and loving her despite her "issues" and the fact that she "isn't always ok".  What happened was she took the leap and packed the car and went to the ex's during a trigger and not we are in the aftermath.  Over the years... .she has blocked peoples' phone numbers, unfriended people from social media... .etc as a means to cope when she felt overwhelmed by a relationship.   So I guess It never occurred to me that it would be taken as invalidating?   I certainly hope that is not the case.  I have spent weeks knowing that she most likely feels awful for how things transpired... .again, I have been through her feelings of guilt and shame for her behavior hundreds of times just never on this side or to this extent.  My intent was to assure her that nothing is beyond repair and the slate is clean... .when she is ready... .in case it was guilt and shame that prevents her from reaching out.    I do feel awful now that I made things worse... .it's gonna be another long night of ruminating I guess.   

Another thing that I tend to collapse upon after 8 years of experience with her is that she is avoiding contact with me because she does love me so much and won't be able to "stand her ground" in this decision if she sees me... .she wants to be right... .in thinking this was the best decision... .but I can see her collapsing in my presence... .I just didn't know how else to let her know it doesn't have to be the way it is right now... .

[Grey Kitty]

Be gentle with yourself about this, man.

If this relationship was meant to work out and was in any way fixable, one less-than-perfect email isn't going to shove it over the edge.

And given how self-aware she can be, and her personal/professional interest in mental health, it might well come across better than I was afraid it would.

The one thing I am going to stick with is that that as long as she is staying with her ex, your chances of reconciliation are pretty low. That calls for patience.

[Allranuthin]

Thanks again Grey Kitty.  I appreciate your thoughts.

You are right about her ex being problematic.  And yes, patience is the answer. In a way, it may even be a good thing for my ex to go see how green the grass ISN'T back there again.  Throughout much of our relationship... .her ex's ever presence was always a problem.  Her ex meddled, violated, disrespected and manipulated a way in our relationship countless times for whatever reason despite my ex's requests that we be left alone (had to see my ex because the dog died, dad's sick, mutual friend had a baby, new guitar, closure, let's get the band back together... .). but it was always short lived and true colors would become apparent (just to manipulate my ex, cause problems in our relationship because of feeling slighted many years ago)... .to the point my ex "deleted" her ex and went NC for a few years during our relationship.  Her ex conveniently took this opportunity and blamed me for not allowing them to be friends. so now the ex has her at the house... .winner winner chicken dinner... .supplying gallons of black paint no doubt... .but I am pretty confident that soon... .even on best rescuing behavior... .boundaries with my ex are being challenged and the now white rescuer will be seen as a controlling manipulator again.  I may be guilty of wishful thinking, but I am still kind of rational... .history repeats itself when nothing different is set in motion.   

Again, I always look forward to your views, GK.  Gives me a lot to think about... .

[Allranuthin]

My exBPD responded to my email after one week.  In many ways it was very positive.  She thanked me for reaching out.  Said it took awhile for her to process everything I said and she needed  the time to reply.  She validated me for having true concern and always having good intentions. For teaching her boundaries with people who took advantage of her.  She said she cannot stress enough that she cares about my well being and my health and she doesn't want me to feel pain or harm.   She said she is working on herself and while she cannot deny her love and deep connection to me, she felt too suffocated and like she was losing her identity (engulfment?).  She really didn't take any responsibility for the rage and out of control departure... .instead eluded to she had been unhappy for a year and it was destined.  She said that somewhere in our relationship I became a trigger and the breakup was so traumatic she cannot be in my life anymore?  This hurt quite a bit, but I am keeping in mind that it was what she was feeling when she wrote me for the first time in two months.  I know contacting me was hard for her.  She said she has gained some clarity since we have been apart and doesn't want to look back, she knows she cannot come back to our relationship and live a healthy life? She mentioned her concern for my family and for me... .said she cannot emphasize enough how much she still cares and hopes I can find happiness.  She said it will be a very long time before she will ever consider dating again because she needs to find herself and take advantage of the clarity being single is bringing her.  She said she needed to find herself again.   She said for her own sanity... .she cannot speak to me or see me, but wished me well.

So, what do I do with this?   I do want her back and I think we can work on things... .especially with the insight and information and tools I have gained from this group.  I did become a trigger because I didn't know how to de-escalate, validate and my go to response was JADEing!   What I would like is to eventually have the opportunity to speak with her validate her fear and my role in making this escalate to the breaking point and contributing to how things transpired, but her fears stem from thinking the same person who consistently invalidated her is the one she would be speaking too.  I am seeking opinions and wisdom here... .I got the email yesterday... .how should I proceed?

[Grey Kitty]

She acknowledged that she cares about you in the email.

The implicit positive thing is that she wrote an email that wasn't just blaming you/attacking you.

She really didn't take any responsibility for the rage and out of control departure

... .and you said that this hurt you. Honestly, I wouldn't expect her to do much of anything like owning her bad behavior, or changing it. If you aren't willing to go back to risking this kind of behavior, feeling confident that you can handle it the right way, you probably shouldn't get back together with her.

She said she needed to find herself again.   She said for her own sanity... .she cannot speak to me or see me, but wished me well.

That's pretty clear, and there isn't much you can do about it. If you force the issue and try to see her or talk to her, it probably won't go well.

So, what do I do with this?

She's not even willing to have normal "friendly" contact with you now, and unless she changes her mind on that you aren't going to have any real options.

My suggestion--decide how many months or years you are willing to wait for her to decide to give the relationship another chance.

How would you feel about waiting another month with this level of contact? Three months? A year? Five years?

She's not sounding like she is ready to start dating now... .but if she decides to again, you probably aren't close enough to her to hear about it anyways. She sounds as likely to move on as move back toward you... .but there really is no way to know.

[Allranuthin]

Thanks for your reply GK.  Always good to hear anothers take on things.  No, her failing to take any ownership isnt what hurt.  That of course is a given because all "bad" behavior is always justified and facts are twisted to make out of control reactions warranted... .that is part of the nature of this disorder and I do ok with all that.  What hurt is I am now a trigger and she can not see or speak to me (ever again). In these past months,   I have self reflected and assessed everything and learned so much about about how to stop making things worse... .I now have a sound understanding of why I am a trigger.  Since our last encounter/the day we broke up was explosive and painful she has ruminated about how awful it felt... .and has based her inability to see me on the times  I didnt validate her feeling or when I would justify argue and defend "the truth" or reality (mine).  It was never intentional and she says she knows it.  I didnt know how to deal with some of these other dynamics until I found these boards.  I guess what I want is for her to know--i am aware of how I failed with my part in this.  She always geniunely told me she felt I was perfect... .I would defend that I am not   but I know seeing me that way made her hate her flaws and see herself as damaged and unworthy... .she said if SHE couldnt make it work with me she is too damaged for any relationship.   So she doesnt even know how much I am responsible for how things spiralled out of control, that it isnt her damage as much as the tools I showed up with.  Now, she said when she thinks of me-she is reminded how broken she is and thats part of why I am a trigger.  I feel compelled to let her know "of course you feel all these things and your hurt---I was often a jerk with expecting you to rationalize away your feelings so they aligned with my reality... .you felt blamed and responsible for our problems because you have (PTSD) but I know it is part of the package that fuels the passion that I deeply adore.  It is me (more stable and capable)who should have taken responsibility to do things more delicately And to change the ways we were painfully engaging first."  It is by far a significant root to all our difficulties. 

I hate that she was so hurt in her childhood and consequently so unable to trust and feel safe.  It isnt right that she has suffered so in life, but I do not damn the "damage" she shows up with.   I just wish she could know all these things I have come to realize.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, it would be nice if she could understand all these things.

That she can't is part of her being damaged.

What are you doing to take care of yourself while she's keeping you at a distance like this?

[Allranuthin]

Hi GK,

I have plenty of other things on my plate, despite this breakup.  I am over a year into a PhD program and research, read and write constantly.  When the breakup first happened it was almost impossible to focus on a scientific journal article!  However, of late, I have settled into a peaceful routine and am able to be focused and engaged in my studies.  I have stayed somewhat involved with friends and other outside activities, but frankly, solitude is my solace much of the time.  I am not depressed just sad and grieving such a significant loss.

You agreed that it is unfortunate that my exBPD is unable to understand my willingness and propensity to improve some of the triggering aspects of the problems that eventually led to the explosive breakup.   I don't ever expect her to fully grasp the negative impacts of her dysregulated emotions and subsequent behaviors, and that's fine... .it's part of the package.  The problem is when she left is, I was an insensitive invalidator (regardless of my best intentions) and made things worse and escalated extreme emotions by JADEing my views. She feels justifiably hurt and untrusting however unwarranted such a tumultuous exit was.  I was a trigger, and I didn't know then what I know now.   She is undeniably a processor and all she has to process with is what I showed her in the past which was sometimes painful.  I truly believe the solution to fixing what went wrong lies within all the insight and new skills for dealing with BPD I have gained over these several months.  My conundrum is she doesn't know that it isn't all HER and her emotional problems... .I led her to believe that in my fervor to save the train "if you get professional help, we won't have issues". I made her feel responsible, guilty and ashamed with what I, at the time could see as the only answer.  I truly was doing everything to make things worse.  I had basically a hammer, a couple of screw drivers and vice grips in my relational tool box because in all my previous relationships, romantic or platonic, no one had been mentally ill and these tools were effective. 

I know it would have a significant positive impact for her to know that I have stepped up, reassessed and found clarity in regard to my level of responsibility in escalating some of the emotional outbursts and triggering encounters.   So I sit here with the one option of stepping back, waiting for her to reach out to me---knowing that is unlikely to happen given there is no evidence for her to collapse upon but her traumatic memories which are in the forefront.  She has no inclination in regard to me or anything changing the cycle we were caught in or to support the fact that things could be different and a whole lot better.  She has no idea about the work I have done in being far more better equipped for when our emotions aren't well managed.  My other option is to take a chance and let her know... .validate her and just in a nutshell step up.  It would have to be in an email, as it is my only means of contact.  I surely see how it could go badly if timing is off.  I just don't know GK.  I can see the benefits in letting things ride until she is ready, but I also see that under the circumstances that may not happen.   This relationship is very important to me as it was to her... .she left because she saw no way out of the cycle and still can't.  But there IS a way out... .I think you get my gist... .I am just so at odds here.

[Grey Kitty]

If you want to make this work better when you have a chance, it is time to start working on the tools and practicing it now.

One is detaching and not taking it so personally when she rejects you, which will happen more times in your future if you do reconcile. And it (mostly) is actually all about her own feelings, and not about you, if that makes sense.

You may be triggering her, or may have even become a trigger for her.

However what is being triggered is old stuff you didn't do, didn't create, and aren't responsible for.

Further, you aren't responsible for fixing it--she has to deal with her own issues in her own way, on her own time. And if you take it personally, you are getting in the way--she suddenly has the issue of conflict with you to distract her from her own unresolved issues!

Another is accepting that she may blame you for things that aren't appropriate... .and you cannot stop her from doing so. Further, you don't help when you "fight" against this. At most, tell her once that you didn't do something/aren't feeling something, then drop the subject, if you engage at all.