Long-time Healing/Coping member, first thread here

[P.F.Change]

 
Hi, gang.

I came to BPD Family a number of years ago for support in coping with my mother, who has BPD, but this is my first personal post on this board. This summer, I had a very painful disagreement with my husband that opened my eyes to the possibility that I may have chosen a covert narcissist as my spouse. I've noticed a few traits over the nearly 20 years we've been together, but this year for the first time I'm starting to see that they might be more than annoying tendencies. He hurt my feelings deeply by bringing up something he knows has hurt me in the past, felt unfairly criticized that I told him so, and then gave me a good dose of silent treatment and gaslighting. He got a look on his face like he would have liked to hurt me further but was satisfied just knowing he could. It spooked me. It was the first time I seriously thought I might need to plan a way out in case things got worse. In the past, most of our quarrels are over after a few days and we can go back to normal. But this one was big. It affected me in a major way, and it's not healed yet.

We started seeing a marriage counselor a little over a month ago, and so far that's going surprisingly well. I didn't expect him to agree to go since he never has followed through on promises to do so in the past, so it helped a lot that he started the process.  I feel like we've made a couple of decent steps forward and one or two back. I'm seeing my husband willing to be more honest and talk about his feelings, which I can tell is very scary for him, and he's also really making efforts to tune into my needs more. Those are big things. Still, I feel uneasy about trusting these changes will last. A week or two a year is the previous track record. I see that I'm not ready to risk too much emotional intimacy just yet, and it's uncomfortable to think I may need to accept this relationship might not ever provide the kind of closeness and attunement I have always wanted from it. But I think we're both trying, and that's something.

I'm working on feeling my feelings and practicing my own empathy and validation skills. I tend toward thinking rather than feeling because it's a lot more comfortable, and I have a very direct communication style that feels critical to my husband. I'm not sure how many opportunities I will have to post here, but I wanted to make an introduction so you'll know why I'm hanging around. Thanks!

P.F.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Tattered Heart]

Hi PF Change,

Welcome to the improving board. I'm sorry you went through such a difficult disagreement with your H but hopefully it will help you come to a place of change for yourself and your relationship.

Although this argument was the first time you've ever seen him look at you in a way that was scary, have there been other signs of narcissism before? I know at times covert narcissism is a lot harder to see because they tend to be more of a "Woe is me. I'm a victim" type narcissist instead of the overt "I'm better than you" narcissism.

Many of the tools we use with NPD and BPD are the same. Lots of validating and finessing. With narcissism I think there are some minor difference, mainly in regards to the motivation behind their behavior, but the communication skills work the same. Is there a particular skill that you are struggling with most?

[pearlsw]

He got a look on his face like he would have liked to hurt me further but was satisfied just knowing he could. It spooked me. It was the first time I seriously thought I might need to plan a way out in case things got worse. In the past, most of our quarrels are over after a few days and we can go back to normal. But this one was big. It affected me in a major way, and it's not healed yet.

We started seeing a marriage counselor a little over a month ago, and so far that's going surprisingly well. I didn't expect him to agree to go since he never has followed through on promises to do so in the past, so it helped a lot that he started the process.  I feel like we've made a couple of decent steps forward and one or two back. I'm seeing my husband willing to be more honest and talk about his feelings, which I can tell is very scary for him, and he's also really making efforts to tune into my needs more. Those are big things. Still, I feel uneasy about trusting these changes will last. A week or two a year is the previous track record. I see that I'm not ready to risk too much emotional intimacy just yet, and it's uncomfortable to think I may need to accept this relationship might not ever provide the kind of closeness and attunement I have always wanted from it. But I think we're both trying, and that's something.

I'm working on feeling my feelings and practicing my own empathy and validation skills. I tend toward thinking rather than feeling because it's a lot more comfortable, and I have a very direct communication style that feels critical to my husband. I'm not sure how many opportunities I will have to post here, but I wanted to make an introduction so you'll know why I'm hanging around. Thanks!

P.F.

Oh my gosh, your sentence about his look gave me chills. It is weird to see someone satisfied by hurting you, but I kinda know what you mean. I never imagined I would see someone so capable/willing to hurt me. I try to depersonalize such things whenever possible, but I wonder if this could be more serious in your case? What do you think?

I wonder too if the current therapy is not going so well for him? Is this going to be something you bring up to the therapist?  

I would suggest that if your husband experiences you as critical that you work very hard on adjusting that. My brother's first wife was incredibly critical and it was horrible to observe. I don't know if you are being hard on yourself with this self-critique, if this is really something to reconsider, but... .well, it can't hurt to be less critical can it? I know it takes more time, careful wording, and patience, but perhaps it could help? At the least you might feel better that you are doing your best under tough circumstances?

I know if I ever hear myself saying something with a negative or too harsh tone I try to adjust or at least apologize. It is tough. My husband tends to make the same mistakes over and over and over. I am sure it designed to drive me totally nuts!  Just one example. He smokes an e-cigarette and though I've asked many times he almost never remembers to roll the window down when we are driving together. I now just silently point at the window a few times. But I swear every single time it is like he is finding out for the first time that this is something I would like him to do. It is like "groundhog day". I have to hold my tongue when sometimes I just want to say... ."Seriously, how many times do I have to remind you to be considerate?" This is just one small example, but geez man. At this point I just have to look on him with compassion. He is like Einstein, he could explain anything about Physics to you, but rolling down a car window to accommodate me... .not how his brain works. He can barely drive while the radio is also playing! I love the radio! Argh! I want to hit my head against the window, but I am sure I will be pointing my finger at the window thousands and thousands of times to come. Maybe I can get a laugh of out him by getting him to calculate the amount of time I spend pointing. He likes math. Sorry for that tangent! I mean basically I could criticize and nag or I can try to find some absurd humor in this and understand and have compassion that he really can't remember or do very many things at once. And if he does remember on his own once in awhile I will lavish him with praise!

That is nice that he is making this effort with counseling. Maybe expressing a lot of gratitude and appreciation for any progress he makes would help create a more loving/bonded vibe? On the other hand, I would set your expectations carefully with this. I notice a lot of people on the boards set counseling as a make or break issue for them but change does not come so easily in terms of behaviors. It will be a slow, long haul and the changes might just be... .well, gaining insight and not necessarily being able to change much. Perhaps a skills focus is best? Maybe you can ask your counselor to help you practice communication skills instead of going over old hurts? The one thing you can change is your view of him, that is the change you can work on. Yes, you probably need to work on accepting that this relationship might not give you all you want in terms of closeness... .you will be the emotional caretaker/leader. You can do this if you want, okay? I wish you some very good moments today and that you are out of this painful argument with him soon!

[P.F.Change]

I've logged in twice to reply and keep getting interrupted. Thanks for the welcome.

Although this argument was the first time you've ever seen him look at you in a way that was scary, have there been other signs of narcissism before?

Oh, yes. In particular, he has a sense of entitlement and lack of empathy. You're right that in overt narcissism those traits are usually fairly obvious. With my husband, he doesn't usually act like he needs special treatment in front of others, but it's not rare that I hear "I deserve... ." or "Of course they will do it for us, we're not just anyone" kinds of statements from him in private. He is extremely sensitive about my moods. If I'm not obviously happy, he often takes it personally and sometimes even sulks about it. He is passive-aggressive and gives me the silent treatment, he uses projection and deflection and knows what buttons to push. One of our children has (admittedly) exceptional intelligence and talent, and I feel my husband focuses on that child's achievements more than our other three children's. I have often felt like a peripheral entertainment object--I need to be there when he's finished doing other fun stuff, but it's too demanding if I want him to be there for me. Earlier this year, he started to express jealousy of my other friendships and fear that I will leave him. I am very familiar with fear of abandonment as it relates to BPD, but I hadn't realized before he brought that up and I did some research that abandonment fears are common with narcissism as well.

Even though I have been aware of these traits, I never thought he had enough of them to qualify for NPD. The Big Fight opened my eyes to how intensely guarded his defense system is, and finding information on covert narcissism makes me consider that as a possibility now. The tools I learned when working on things with my mother are sometimes helpful. I like your choice of the word "finessing." I find my husband is less receptive to my using validation than other people in my life have been. So I try to stick to "I feel" kinds of statements when possible.

Oh my gosh, your sentence about his look gave me chills. It is weird to see someone satisfied by hurting you, but I kinda know what you mean. I never imagined I would see someone so capable/willing to hurt me. I try to depersonalize such things whenever possible, but I wonder if this could be more serious in your case? What do you think?

Our conversations remained relatively calm, and I felt observant even though things were emotionally charged. I didn't feel directly threatened, but it was definitely scary seeing the rage bubble up to the surface and wondering if it would come out. The conversation where he gave me that look happened about a week after our initial fight--we were not in therapy yet. I had just expressed that I was concerned about the way we fight, and that I feel insecure when he stops speaking to me after I tell him he hurt my feelings, because it reminds me of how my parents behaved. When I saw him with that expression on his face--eyes narrow, lips pursed--I asked him what he was feeling right then, because I didn't want to mind-read. He said that he thought I was being manipulative--He said by telling him he's acting like my mother, that means I am threatening to leave him (I have NC with her for about 7 years). I tried validating, then asserted that I am not planning to leave and that I am not trying to manipulate him when I express my thoughts and feelings.

I do think it's great that DH agreed to therapy, and I am trying to offer lots of encouragement and positive reinforcement. It is not a make-or-break for me or an ultimatum of any kind. I have been suggesting it for years. This is the first time I think he felt ready to recognize we have some major foundation-level problems that we need help working through. I also think he is probably afraid I would leave him if he didn't try, though I have never threatened to do that. I value commitment and would have found a therapist for myself to do as much as I could on my end if he hadn't come with me. It is a huge deal that he is participating, especially if he has narcissism, and even bigger that he is opening up with some vulnerability. One of the scariest parts of the Big Fight has been that I have considered this relationships one of the only secure attachments I've ever been able to form, and suddenly found myself needing to re-evaluate whether it was even a safe one. He's been working really hard, and that gives me some hope that we might be able to build something better, but also I am still struggling to trust.

Thanks for your story about the cigarettes. I can definitely relate to that kind of frustration.

[Perseverant]

I see that I'm not ready to risk too much emotional intimacy just yet, and it's uncomfortable to think I may need to accept this relationship might not ever provide the kind of closeness and attunement I have always wanted from it.

I'm working on feeling my feelings and practicing my own empathy and validation skills. I tend toward thinking rather than feeling because it's a lot more comfortable, and I have a very direct communication style that feels critical to my husband.

I could have written these words myself. I simply wanted to thank you for posting them, because they gave me insight into how the way I communicate can inadvertently escalate circumstances with my uBPDh. My H often says "do you have to challenge me on everything?" when what I have said is not a challenge, but a question, like "do you want to gas up the car before we head off with the kids for the day?" when I see that the gas gauge is near E. In my view, my question is not a challenge, it's a helpful suggestion. In his view, I suppose I am voicing doubt that he can manage simple things.

I am encouraged by your H's willingness to participate in counseling. That surprises me, in general, when someone with the traits of our spouses is willing to expose him-/herself in that way. I will be interested to hear how it proceeds.